I prefer my Batman to not kill and not use guns. Why do so many

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I'm an originalist.

>>92449325
People on 4chan like killing.

Who knew.

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a.) Because that's what he did for his first few adventures

b.) DC officially says that Batman killing his villains is literally what solves all crime on Earth in other universes.

>>92449325
Because it'd dark and mature and you're dumb just like mom and MOM'S GONNA FREAK!

>>92449438
Someone's upset.

>>92449325
BECAUSE he doesn't normally do that

It's the same reason why people find the idea of Batman singing and dancing interesting

>>92449487
Or how literally every "re-interpretation" of Superman is him being a colossal homicidal dick.

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>>92449325
I second that emotion but I also like the idea of Bruce stop caring about not killing as he gets old

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>>92449377
>>92449428
Wasn't one of the reasons he dropped it was also because they wanted to try to move him away from being an expy of The Shadow?

>>92449325
I'm not big on Punisher-Bats myself exactly, but I would sort of like to see Batman explain his 'no-killing' rule is for him specifically and he genuinely trusts Dick, Tim, Barbara, Cass, and even Jason's judgement and discretion better than his own, and would ultimately just shrug if Jason or anyone else pumped Joker full of lead rather than constantly go out of his way to save his worst and most irredeemable enemies.

Oh, the rule also applies to Damien because Batman sees too much of the risk of 'slippery slope' in Damien.

But I'm also a faggot and far from the paragon of good taste.

http://seangordonmurphy.deviantart.com/art/REJECTED-Batman-story-396563154

Relevant.

>>92449601
yeah,
gets hard to have recurring villains if he just kills them
later on though it's fine

>>92449640
That is fucking hilarious. Shame DC would never publish it.

>>92449601
BvS would have been loads better if they actually had a real conversation between Bruce and Alfred where he just outright says that he kills now because he's too old to give a shit anymore.

Simply because after a while as comics have to do crazier and crazier shit to desperately try to attract the audience and keep reusing the same characters, the whole idea of Bat's showing this people mercy becomes more and more annoying and stupid as it's the main driving force of this recurring status quo.

>>92449428
>>92449377
noone who's interested in Batman killing people is interested in that because they prefer those comics over the other 99% of his comics, so knock it off with this non-answer. I'm not saying it can't be an interesting take on the character but acting like this makes it the core of his character when 99% of his material is diametrically opposed to this point specifically is bullshit.

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>Why do so many people find the idea of Punisher-Bats so fascinating?
CRAWLING IN MY SKIIIIIIIIN
THESE WOUNDS THEY WILL NOT HEEEEAAAAAAL

>>92449325
the whole point of Knightfall was to prove to fans that a Batman that kills people is shitty... that's why Doug Moench created Azrael so fans would stop asking for a punisher style batman when they saw how he shitty he'd be

>>92449325
Ive gotten used to the "I have a code! No guns! No Killing" bats and thoroughly enjoy stories where its tested.
I like BvS bats because he is a characature of all of the movie versions of batman mixed with a little bit of the comics batman.
The juxtaposition of the batman I know and love clashing with Snyderverse batman is grounds for hilarity. Every scene in that fucking movie that has Batman in it is amazing and its amazing because its fucking over the top and dumb. Its like a parody of all the worst parts of batman: Him being fucking crazy, Him being rich, him beating the shit out of people who cant really fight back all that well, That thing in every batman movie where he has a vehicle that uses lethal weapons, That thing in every batman movie where batman inevitably kills someone, Batman being dark and brooding, The batvoice.
Except all of that is cranked up to 11,000 and i fucking love it. The warehouse scene alone had me laughing until I cried in the movie Theater. He's Lego Batman without the jokes.

>>92449865
I never said any of that. I said I'm an originalist. Can you not read?

>>92449871
Reeeeaaaally upset.

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>>92449428
>DC officially says that Batman killing his villains is literally what solves all crime on Earth in other universes.

winning isn't as compelling as a man struggling to do the right thing and hold true to his ideals and inspire people to be better

>>92449774

Do you understand why he did it in BvS?

>>92449809
I think Under the Red Hood was the tipping point for a lot of people in regards for the whole "But I CAAAAAAN'T" mentality that he has. I really wish that it had ended with Bruce more going "Think about what it would be like if I killed the same way I hunt regular criminals. There wouldn't be a damn Gothamite alive, and I eventually have to go through any other superhero who'd try to stop me. I don't kill because you KNOW I will never stop."

>>92449528
the majority of people straight up do not like superman they think he's a sanctimonious schmuck with limitless power so it's more engaging to them when he's a villain

>>92449928
Does anyone really? The movie paints it like Robin's death made him go kill crazy because he doesn't give a shit anymore.

>>92449929
That's literally what he said, dumbass. He said that if he killed Joker he would never stop. It was a bullshit excuse then and it's still bullshit now.

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>>92449774
Well, they kinda had, Alfred even asks about the branding thing
Apparently Batman got retired for a while after Robin's death and came back with new rules because of Superman

Suicide Squad flashbacks are a few years before BvS and he doesn't kill Deadshot or Harley
But holy shit, the SS flashback timelines are confusing
>Ayer said that the Bat punched out Joker's teeth after killing Robin and sent him to Arkham, where Joker got his tats as a joke
>Joker has metal teeth in the Arkham flashback when Harley was still Harleen
>the club flashback says that Harley helped Joker kill Robin
Doesn't make sense, couldn't they have removed the metal teeth and tats for the flashback?

>>92449918
That's also why those universes got fucking annihilated, too.

>>92449975

It's fairly easy. It's a combination of all his fuck-ups and inability coming back to haunt making him lose his drive.

And as par for the course, nobody will complain about Burton's Batman killing people.

>>92449976
He was far more giving the whiny "But then I become the demons" answer. Pressing home the point that, if he killed the Joker, he'd literally have to turn the gun on Jason and blow his brains out, too would have made the ending seem like less of a cop out.

>>92449325
Makes more sense then a guy beating up the same people all for them to escape and kill more people over and over

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The real question is why hasn't The Flash taken over the world, yet? All he has to do is snap Batman's neck during a JLA mixer (if they even have those anymore; current editorial doesn't seem to believe in Leaguers being friends with downtime anymore) and then take care of everyone else.

>>92449918
>the weapon of the enemy
>filename

I also kind of hate how Batman's outlook on guns is done here. I mean does that mean he sees even non-corrupt cops as the enemy? Does he see soldiers who fight to protect their countries as weak cowards?

>>92449883
The character was shitty because he wanted him to be. It didn't prove Batman killing would be shitty though

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>>92450189
That's Wally
Kingdom Come Wally has seen some shit

>>92449377
The Burton movies also adapted this aspect of Batman (although usually leaving out the guns), and everyone criticizes how Batman did it in them (although that scene of him exploding the goon with a goofy grin on his face is hilarious).

>>92449621
That, too. Batman only stopped being a clowned up Shadow copy on the 50s and 60s when he stopped killing and Robin became a regular (and even then he spent most of that time as just a Superman in dark tights).
And one of the things about The Shadow is that he didn't have many recurring villains because he killed most of them, with the only exceptions being characters like Shiwan Khan or Benedict Stark (and even then these characters would be killed eventually). And since DC wanted to keep most supervillains alive, they couldn't have that.
And that's without taking into account what happened during the CCA period.

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>>92450207
obviously not, be realistic

the use of firearms is necessitated in war

>>92449325
F-F-FUCK OFF MARVELSHILL

>>92449325
Because they're mouthbreathers not familiar with the character.

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>>92449325
I prefer Batman rape his villains

>>92449962
The majority are neutral to him, I think. like "Superman? Well, he's a thing. I'd watch something involving him."

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>>92450292
Don't forget the period of Batman and Robin stories were they indirectly killed people, like punching people off scaffolding 10 stories up and the time a guy jumped out a window and snapped his neck because he got stuck between buildings.

>>92449325
It works better for movies, to be honest, since film writers like killing off their villains at the end. Otherwise, Batman would either have to decide not to kill his villain, but they die due to contrived circumstance.

>>92449962
No, only massive Bat-fags have that problem with Superman. Most regular people just see Superman as "The guy who can beat anybody" and not much else. He's a very old fashioned superhero to most people.

>>92450777
I didn't. But Robin is generally agreed to be the turning point where Batman stopped being just a Shadow copy and started to have his own shtick since Robin made things more lighthearted and child-friendly (even if they were still killing people up until the CCA happened).

>>92450207
hes morally opposed to guns, obvs this kinda stuff is situational, but he personally cant see himself using one and fears it would ruin his "sanity". i think he means a world without guns would be a better place. his trauma has evidently, seriously affected his person.

>>92450830
hes about as interesting as manhattan, characters with no weaknesses are... weak.

>>92449601
>The remorseless indifference Bruce has whenever a villain is horribly disfigured or dies in Batman Beyond
Sorrowful but also satisfying.

I think I like the idea of a hero whose city or task is like a grind stone, at first it sharpens them into a weapon that deals with problems with precision but with time it grinds too much and turns them into a blunt instrument resolved to just bludgeon whatever's in their path until it's as broken as them. The idea basically is that neither side wins, watching the often pathetic fate of the villains really sold it to me most of all. Batman tried to help them, but they decided to make victims of everyone else until they became victims of themselves.

>>92450519
I read it in his voice.

>>92451138
>Superman has no weaknesses
Spoken like a true casual.

>>92451429
you know what i mean you dense shit

>>92449377
But he never used a gun in that actual story. It was just there because of Shadow tracing. Golden Age Batman killed, but it was usually by kicking guys off rooftops of breaking their necks. The only times he used a gun to kill were mounted guns on the Batplane to kill Hugo Strange's monster men and to shoot silver bullets into the sleeping Mad Monk and Darla.

>>92450189
Does that mean Flash is watching you fap?

>>92449325
People don't, why do you think there was so much backlash to him killing?

>>92452462
I actually don't. Superman does have weaknesses.

>>92449325
Because he'd be unstoppable considering how dangerous he is already.

>>92458532
Like?

>>92458927
Red Sun radiation. Magic. People just as strong or stronger than him. FUCKING KRYPTONITE. His loved ones.

Do try to be less of a casual.

>>92449325
not killing is fine

no guns is autism

>>92449325
Perfect way to show how bad things have gotten. It shows the contrast between normal Batman and broken Batman.

>>92449774
Are you mentally impaired by any chance? Why do you need so much exposition to understand whats clearly explained in the movie?

Alfred calls Batman on his crazy bullshit a billion times to which Bruce just answers "we were always criminals" and the "how many stayed good" answer.

Alfred reference his methods becoming crueller and borderline fascist like 4 times in the movie.

Then you complain Snyder is not subtle but at the same time demand not subtle on your face exposition.

>Bruce, stop killing criminals! Remember Suicide Squad you got deadshot without killing, like a hero!
>I cant Alfred, Im getting old and not killing never got me any result. But through the Zod invasion in Man of Steel I was reborn. This is my REBIRTH. Or you could call it...my Dawn of Justice!
>Justice you say Master Bruce? This is more like you just want to beat Superman. You only care about Batman v Superman!!!!
>Maybe...but at least this will be the ultimate edition of Batman v Superman Alfred!

>>92449325
I prefer my Batman to not kill henchmen. They're just poor dumb saps that need rehabilitation. Many probably got press ganged by the deranged psychopaths that Batman keeps propping up.
Now on the other hand, going to ludicrously extreme lengths to SAVE the lives of literal fucking evil scum like Joker is just asinine and reeks of artifice because
>lol, if his villains die, what'll we write next week?

>>92450811
This. The no killing code and revolving.door is just a neccesity on comic books. Im more than ok with Batman killing on movies. Or send to prison once kill them.the second time. Like you can have 1 strike to reform. First crime you get arrested by comic book batman, second crime you get killed by snyderman.

>>92459017
>Then you complain Snyder is not subtle but at the same time demand not subtle on your face exposition.
He tries his hardest but the audience is just too retarded. So sad. If BvS came out 20 years ago people would understand it better.

>>92449325
I like it in BvS because it serves a specific point: Bruce goes through a character arc of almost becoming a supervillain when he submits to his dark side only to ultimately be redeemed and inspired by Superman

>>92449929
>>92449976
>>92450099
"but then I become the bad guy" is hack writing. It would have been better if he said that Gotham wouldn't have a righteous symbol to look up to.

>>92450189
Yeah, right. Barry would get BTFO by Superman, Wonder Woman, MM, and a bunch of other heroes.

>>92449377
Batman's gloves are purple! REEEEEEEEE!

>>92459227
Exactly, as opposed to Burton where he's insane or Nolan where he's a hypocrite. This is why I thought it was acceptable in BvS.

>>92458984
No guns is fine.

Not killing is autism.

>>92449809
The main driving force is editorial, the in universe reason is nothing more than an excuse.

>>92459230
I can dig this. It doesnt make sense that slippery slope fallacy about "if I kill this genocidal clown I will start killing muggers too!"

>>92459231
Only because Flash always has...whats the opposite of plot armor? plot venom?

Any story where Batman is a villain or tyrannic fuck? Im kinda tired of evil Superman. I want evil Batman. Babel wasnt really evil Batman. The closest I got is BvS where he is portrayed as an antagonist. I want evil Batman fucking shit up.

>>92459297
No autism is fine.
Not killing is guns.

>>92449928
Doing it because he thinks Supes has a bigger dick isn't a good reason.

>>92459279
I think both are valid alternative versions of the character.

Burtonman is a broken dude. Fucking insane. But he is actually the only version in which I would 100% believe a grownup millionaire man had the batshit crazy idea of dressing as a black gargoyle and fight crime with your fists. For example, I wouldnt believe Nolanman couldnt have come with a more reasonable idea to fight crime.

Nolanman is a really great metaphor of the american people. Literally "its alright when X does it!". People complain about shit Bush did, but when Batman does it is A ok. Same with Hillary. Its ok all the shit she does because you like her. Nolanman being a fucking hypocrite is a smart twist.

>>92450811
Is it even worth it? We've still had 4 live action movies with the Joker, might aswell not pretend like anybody cares when he dies at this point.

>>92459320
>Any story where Batman is a villain or tyrannic fuck?
World's Finest: Superman vs. Batman. Or the alt universe one where Superman and Batman meet their criminal doubles: World's Finest #148. Honestly, having BOTH Superman and Batman be criminals is a lot scarier than just one of them. I think a more recent World's Finest did that too but I can't recall which one.

>>92459396

But that's not the reason why.

The reason why i liked Batman in BvS is because it was nice exploration of an utterly broken Batman.

Here's an old Batman that has been so crushed by the realization of the futility of his efforts and years of sacrifice that he lost hope on his life mission, on his code, on his morality, on his fucking life itself. He can't even see anymore any distinction between him and the criminals he swore to stop because to him now he hasn't been done one iota of good throughout all these years. He probably made things worse, specially for the people around him that followed him on his stupid crusade.

So he's desperately trying to find anything that will give his sad and pathetic life some meaning, that will make the years of pain and sacrifice worth something, that can make things have some sense again. In his hopelessness, confusion and anger he grasped on Superman as the solution for everything. Since the pursuit of heroism is a stupid cause that only bring more misery to those around the fool searching it, Superman one day will realize the hopelessness of his cause and probably lose his reason just as much Batman has. If that happens the world might be in danger. So the solution to everything is to die trying to kill Superman. This way he'll save the world from both him and Superman. Finally his life will mean something.

Batman's so fucking mental in this movie that i love it.

>>92459404
Good analyses. But for Nolan's I think it might be too good, so to speak. I never liked that torture scene, but I don't think that Nolan meant to portray it as a negative. It could be possible though, seeing as he hates Batman for some reason. There's no way that the average audience member would pick up on Batman being a hypocrite. They're too focused on how "cool" he is.

>>92459450
Alfred says, it's in his
>this is how it starts
line

>>92459630

But is not a mere dick contest to show who's the top dog. Is about Batman trying to give his life some meaning back by directing his rage at something he isn't even sure about. Batman's grasping at straws.

>>92459582
>>92459582
>the justice quip movie will ruin whatever good we got from BvS

I really dont want Iron Man 2.0. Its fine if he doesnt kill anymore because his hope returned, but god let Batman be a jaded cynic fuck at least. Not a happy quipmaster.

>>92459231
Good thing that's not Barry then.

>>92459658
>let Batman be a jaded cynic fuck at least.
Ew no. He can be hopeful without doing a thousand quips a minute. I hate that interpretation of Batman. I know we'll never have silver age happiness again but at least give me something.

remember when bruce was naked and coquettishly pointing a banana at us? we should get more things like that.

>>92459658
He didn't seem happy even while quipping.

>>92459691
>>92459320

No Flash can beat a serious Superman. I don't know how many characters have to point out that Superman is the most powerful character on Earth before Flash fags will get it through their skulls.

>>92459654
It's not a contest, because that'd require two participants. It's about batman feeling inadequate.

>>92459658
This. I feel like they'll fuck up doubly. Killing aside, Batfleck was great. Instead of just removing the killing, they'll fuck him up fully.
Okay, killing and not being a detective aside.

>>92459782
I dont want to enter that argument but Flash could literally travel back in time to destroy the ship that brought Clark, or even save Krypton if he wanted so Clark wouldnt even be sent to Earth.

>bu-bu-bu-but if Superman charges his power for 10000000 years until he becomes golden superman! what if silver age superman blablabla....but prime blablablabla...but thought robot blablablabla

>>92459827
What? He did tons of detective work in the movie. The only thing people complain about was about Superman's secret identity.

>>92459832

Dude, i've no dog in this fight, but Superman will always be shown as better for the mere fact he's Superman. It doesn't matter if another character should be more powerful of competent given the logical extension of their abilities. DC would never let said character upstage Superman.

The only character who's allowed to upstage Superman is Batman and even then it's never a clean cut thing and there's a bunch of homoerotic feelings involved.

>>92459928
>DC would never let said character upstage Superman
DC made Superman evil in a shit ton of universes also he jobs a lot in the cartoons.

Frankly Flash being a hero of hope and justice is more of a constant through the multiverse than Superman with all the Emperor Supermen running around.

I like the idea of Batman refusing both to use firearms and to kill. I believe it makes sense for him as a character and for his place within his world. But I find the idea of Batman pushing his no-kill policy on people outside of the Bat brand to be ham-fisted. I mean it's fine when he gives a preachy high-horse speech to some hotheaded vigilante about how quick the public can turn on you, etc etc, but his stance regarding the Joker, et al. should be along the lines of "he should probably die, I'm just neither the one to decide nor the one to do it."

I mean what little character Bruce has comes from the DIFFERENCES he has from the average John Wayne western character, not the similarities.

>>92459981

Even when Superman is evil there are tons of justifications for why he's changed and other than Injustice he always redeem himself. In these stories he's also always the top dog in the that wins against all.

>>92460002
>But I find the idea of Batman pushing his no-kill policy on people outside of the Bat brand to be ham-fisted.
When has he ever done that? He generally has the idea that vigilantes shouldn't do that, but it's okay for normal citizens to defend themselves. Even Alfred has a shotgun.

>>92449325
I like Batman driven over the edge and going far further than he would normally go. Preferably if someone snaps him out of it before the end of the story.

This only works in AUs, though. The main Batman needs to be virtuous to show that he's inherently heroic but always in danger of going off the deep end because his methods tend to be one step away from supervillainy.

>>92459658
I think it's going to be fine. He's still going to be grim Batman, but he's relax enough to have some slight fun with the job again. Think of it as Bruce after every time he gets a new Robin. His lighter mentor side comes back when he isn't isolated 24/7 and doesn't immerse himself in the darkness.

>>92460459

Diana was inserted in the story precisely so Bruce and her could kinda cheer each other up. Kinda like those AAA programs where you've partner to keep you in line in the path of recovery.

Why do people love Hack Snyder's version of Batman so much? Because he made a live action Arkham Asylum fight scene? It's certainly not because Batfleck was well written or likable in any kind of way. This Batman was so illogical, irrational and belligerent that I can't understand why anybody would like him.

>>92451061
>(even if they were still killing people up until the CCA happened).

No, they stopped killing people long before the CCA happened. The CCA didn't get formed till the 50's. Batman (and Robin) killed up until the mid-40's, or even a little earlier, since at some point Batman got deputized by the police.

>>92460615

>This Batman was so illogical, irrational and belligerent that I can't understand why anybody would like him.

Geez, is like that's the point.

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>>92460615
g-get fucked you marvelfuck
Snyderkino is just too deep for you

>>92460615
I prefer asshole Batman who can be wrong over holier-than-thou Injustice Batman.

>>92460615
>This Batman was so illogical, irrational and belligerent
That was the intent, and was done perfectly. I dont see the issue.

They went for certain interpretation, and they interpreted it flawlessly. He was the clear antagonist in the movie.