Looking at /co/ and feeling like the only person who’s enjoying

>>92135734
Finally, you only need read Captain America Sam Wilson to get some idea of what Nick Spencer’s politics are. Something is telling me he isn’t a far-right fascist when he’s writing an anti-fascist storyline and making it the front and centre of the Marvel Universe right now.

You can not like the story for the writing or what have you but to call Marvel fascist sympathisers or to call for Nick Spencer to lose his job just because you don’t like a story is ridiculous. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it. Simple.

But beyond the outrage it seems no one actually seems to back up their claims of anti-semitism despite it being a serious allegation that can ruin people’s lives. Not that /co/ has been known for its tact when attacking people for disagreeing with them.

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>>92135734

>>92135743
Stan Lee didn’t co-create Captain America, Joe Simon did.

Oh, and here’s an actual argument backing up the anti-Semitism claims.

http://socialistexan.tumblr.com/post/160156533441/enscenic-jayleeg-friendly-reminder-that-when

Oh, and it is 100% anti-Semitic to have Magnus and Wanda join HYDRA, full stop. Having a Rroma/Jewish woman as a Nazi is 100% wrong even with brainwashing.

There’s a more nuanced way to tell the “Hard Right Take Over” story that doesn’t include making the actual victims of those people the faces of those groups. They going to recruit Kamala Khan and Iceman next? Also Norse mythology is heavily influential in Neo-nazis circles, so haivng Thor/Odinson be HYDRA in this story isn’t the fucking same. Jfc. Get some perspective.

“Could I be anti-Semitic? No, it’s the Jews who are wrong” is basically what this post is.

I don't have any problems with 1, 2, or 3. I don't like it because so far, it's been a boring predicatable retread. Too much of it is generic evil neo facists, that we've seen hundreds of times before.

Hollow bait-and-switch events are shit.

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>>92135867
The fundamental flaw with this interpretation is that it effectively erases the role that Hydra has generally played in terms of Marvel Comics’ history.

While it is true that recent authoritarian right politicians have some support by right-wing Jewish people, that mostly comes out of a more international and cosmopolitan (though still toxic in its own way) neoconservatism that stands in contrast to the economically protectionist, ethno-nationalist policies endorsed by Nazis.

Hydra, for what they are worth, are the latter. Despite what some folks at Marvel Comics insist, Hydra in the past have quite consistently been a stand-in for Nazis. And that’s not when they’re making the link explicitly clear:

More importantly though, it actually doesn’t matter if Marvel says that Hydra aren’t Nazis, or if they’re not “supposed” to be Nazis in the latest canon. What matters is that, in the minds of readers, they are Nazis. Death of the Author means that the meaning of any work of art is based more in interpretation and audience impact than intent.

Now, I can’t really speak for anyone since I’m not Jewish, but I would guess that what makes this so antisemitic is that Marvel seems hell-bent on contradicting the audience’s popular understanding of Hydra as actual Nazis, something not helped by the fact that the Cinematic Universe in no uncertain terms does say Hydra are Nazis. By extension, this means they’re whitewashing what makes actual Nazi ideology so abhorrent while they turn canonically Jewish/Romani characters into Hydra agents and pretend that’s less profoundly fucked-up on paper than it is.

No amount of retcons or authorial statements will change the deeply-established popular understanding of what Hydra are (that is to say, Nazis), and refusing to even acknowledge that Hydra is built from the same cloth as the people who committed the Holocaust is going to swiftly register as bullshit to many, many audiences.

>>92135867
Oh fuck off you nu-male cuck.

You can't take the moral highground when the side you support does the same thing.

>>Blindly worship and follow one leader
Hilary and/or Bernie
>>Stress how everything you they do is for the greater good and to protect people
Supporting them, or fighting Trump regardless of the policies because "it's right"
>>Silence all critical voices and dissenters
Anyone you don't like is a nazi or alt-right, which are also nazis
>>Bully everybody who dares to have different ideas and a different approach or who doesn’t want to join up
See the above example.


You fucking disgust me.


As for why it comes off as racist and anti-semetic it's because Nick Spencer is an idiot and can't write for shit, the only good run he had was outright stolen from a Max Landis fan-fic. The former of which will be seen when his terrible arc comes full circle.


As for your "nazi can't be jews" hitler's propaganda man was jewish and was the man who suggested using them as a scapegoat in the firstplace.

>>92136012
fuck off Max

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>>92135910
Except hydra and red skull have been split ideologically for decades,does this mean any member of hydra is a support of anti semetism just because one leader who was hated and killed off by other leaders was a nazi?Is hydrabob now a neonazi? or Spider woman.No a single nazi leader who went against the original doctrine and was removed twice for it does not a nazi party make.And why should a general misconception count before actual continuity,should nick fury Sr be considered white washed because the general public knows Black nick fury over white nick fury,is that now retroactively wrong,likewise should hydra be considered nazis because the general audience know them as that than what they actually where?Why can't they be another bondesque conquer the world organization like they were in there inception and have been for decades

>>92135734
Naw, I'm reading it too and loving ever second of it.

>>92135734
no ones hating it because it's fascist propaganda you idiot, they hate it because it's leftist propaganda since they're using literal whos and mostly diversity oc-tier characters and since they're still ranting about the nazi boogey man despite the fucking world war having ended like 70 years ago.

you're such a fucking retard op, but then agani it's not much of a surprise since you're a faggot leftist as well

>>92137163
Nice try, OP

>>92135734
Just thumbler fags and old man fags crying,

>>92135734
no ones hating it because it's fascist propaganda you idiot, they hate it because it's leftist propaganda since they're using literal whos and mostly diversity oc-tier characters and since they're still ranting about the nazi boogey man despite the fucking world war having ended like 70 years ago.

you're such a fucking retard op, but then agani it's not much of a surprise since you're a leftist faggot as well

>>92135743
Here's the problem, the people calling for Spencer to be fired wouldn't buy it even if they did like it so "don't like it, don't buy it" doesn't actually reflect their opinions. That's MCUfags for you.

I just think it's dumb. Been done before, nothing will change the status quo, Cap will have a bit of a Sadness Era afterwards because he'll remember being a fascist and that will be that.

The marketing makes me think of Suicide Squad's crapfest oh "WOAH so EDGY there's NOTHING LIKE THIS" and Spencer is sucking his own dick so hard over it i'm just uninterested.

>>92135734
No one likes your comic, Spencer. Quit trying to do damage control, it's not going to work.

>>92135833

Fixed this for you:

>Stan Lee, who is paid to hype everything Marvel does, says he LIKES Hydra Cap.

GOLLY YOU DON'T SAY, WHO COULD HAVE GUESSED

>>92135734
>That the story is meant to be making commentary on the kind of extreme right wing nutjobs rising up in politics lately and how wrong they are.


When did freedom start being wrong and bad?

>>92135734

I'm with you, dude. The world is politics crazy right now. No one can enjoy a story. This story is leftist propaganda to one set of people, fascist glorification to another set of people, it's offensive to a whole bunch of oversensitive idiots. The only people that can enjoy it for what it is are people without small minded, degenerate extreme political views (left or right), people who have a bit of fucking perspective and balance. I don't think SE is the best comic ever it anything, only that all the shit it is getting is the work of idiots without any rational thinking facility.

>>92138110

And the retard writer of that tumble post.. well, a perfect example of my point.

>>92135734
>this post
those seem more like tumblr complaints
13 99 race the kikes

>>92137541

Didn't you notice? 99.9% of comics don't change the status quo. They can still be good stories in themselves.

>>92135753
>Tom "If the surname's Vell, send 'em to Hell" Brevoort

>>92135734
I like the conflict between what Cap wants and what the world is forcing his role to be. He doesn't want to kill Rick but everyone is using his mercy as a sign of weakness, and if he does execute Rick then they will use THAT as a sign that he is overbearing with his strength.

I hope that it turns out that Cap fakes Rick's death because he needed to kill Rick but also save him to save himself.

>>92135734
no ones hating it because it's fascist propaganda you idiot, they hate it because it's leftist propaganda since they're using literal whos and mostly diversity oc-tier characters and since they're still ranting about the nazi boogey man despite the fucking world war having ended like 70 years ago.

you're such a fucking retard op, but then agani it's not much of a surprise since you're a leftist faggot as well

>>92137163
>>92137276
>>92138287
Someone is upset

>>92138279
yeah, like he faked razing Las Vegas to the ground

>>92135734
Story time it.

>>92138328
Holograms

>>92135734
Secret Empire is another fucking "Everything is different now!" gimmick Mega-Event. Its more of books being filled with "look at us!" stunts instead of focusing on good stories. Its yet more of Marvel preferring fans to be angry instead of enjoying the product.

honestly the idea is interesting and after reading it seems decently written. it just feels off. the politics are so blatant, this could have been done in a more nuanced way. hydra cap is always going to be in the mind of normies now and i cant blame them

>>92135734
http://herosmurfs.tumblr.com/post/160344090649/looking-at-tumblr-and-feeling-like-the-only-person

Cool pasta bro.

>>92135760
Wanda is seen as expendable by Marvel comics.

They will kill her off in this storyline as she is only a minor cameo character.

>>92138365
http://www.waitwhatpodcast.com/theres-something-familiar-secret-empire-1/

>After reading Secret Empire #1–after all the tumult and fanfare and Wagnerian bombast of the run-up to the event–I found myself not only non-enraged, but mildly bored. This is, it seemed to me, writer Nick Spencer’s take on exactly the same event Marvel has done at least half a dozen times before: [BAD GUY] has successfully taken over [AMERICA] and now our heroes are down to their last-ditch hope to turn things around. Ultron, Doom, Apocalypse, Sentinels, Doom again, and now Hydra–the details change, but the feel of the whole story stays depressingly the same.

>And I don’t like being depressed! I’m a cheerful, upbeat guy! I like liking things!

>So I decided that the only logical thing to do was create a positive, happy review of the book–but, to be true to the spirit of this issue– to cobble it together entirely of text from reviews of 2013’2 Age of Ultron #1. I changed character and creator names and the occasional pronoun (in [BRACKETS]) but left everything else intact. The numbers in parentheses link back to the original source texts, and the list of references directly follows. So, without further ado, [MY] happy review of [SECRET EMPIRE] #1.

>>92138261

Sorry, but that's how it is. You've got free speech suppressing white male hating unhappiness spreading deranged feminazis on one side, and black skin hating gay hating religion spreading intolerants on the other. You have to be SOMEWHERE in the centre of that, or you're a necessarily a moron. So, yeah, it's not about left or right, it's about the right solution for the problem, and you can't be irrationally tied to one side of a one dimensional model in order to work that out.

>>92138510
>“It would seem that [HYDRA] has taken over the world and people are living in squalor under [THEIR] heavy metal thumb. Bad guys roam free, our heroes are on the run, and all hope seems lost. I love this stuff! I love getting dropped into the middle of a story and having to suss out the whats, whys, and wherefores. And I love stories set in the future (even if this isn’t technically “the future”) where our once-great heroes have been beaten and now have to find a way, against all odds, to be triumphant once again.” (1)

(1) From iFanboy: http://ifanboy.com/articles/review-age-of-ultron-1-no-spoilers/

>“If you’re headed into this issue expecting to learn exactly how [HYDRA] managed to take over the world, send the heroes into hiding, and turn the Marvel Universe into a post-apocalyptic wasteland reminiscent of the Terminator franchise, you’re going to be sorely disappointed. But [SPENCER] proves that the notion of plot points is somewhat irrelevant here; by starting the issue in medias res, we call upon our knowledge and familiarity of how superhero comics work and as a result, easily accept the situation.” (2)

“That said, the same elements of this book that are pros might also be cons, depending on your perspective. For one, the success of the relationships presented in issue #1 are somewhat dependent on your familiarity with particular characters and their prior history with one another. As a reward for being a longtime reader, this is fantastic. As a new reader, you might find yourself wishing for some more insight into these people and why they are acting as they are.” (2)

(2) From IGN: http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/03/04/age-of-ultron-1-review

>>92138450
I'm legitimately impressed at how far OP went

>>92138539
>“If [SECRET EMPIRE] falters at all, it may be only in the reality that this is a story we’ve seen many times before. A pinned down group of revolutionaries, with no hope and no course of action, making their last stand is not unfamiliar territory for a genre tale.” (3)

>“VERDICT
>Buy It – If you are looking for a light, fun and fancy free adventure romp, you are looking in the wrong place. But, what [SECRET EMPIRE] #1 lacks in whimsy it more than makes up for in sheer excitement and drama. The team of [SPENCER] and [STEVE McNIVEN] work in perfect harmony to bring you the first chapter in a grim tale of lost hope and possible redemption. This is the type of story that would go great with a beer and a Hans Zimmer score and you won’t want to miss it.” (3)

(3) From Talking Comic Books: http://talkingcomicbooks.com/2013/03/06/age-of-ultron-1-review/

>>92138539
>whys, and wherefores
>saying why twice

>>92138548
thank you, I try my best to find high quality spam to invoke discourse for /co/

>>92138575
the two different trip codes matching the tumblr blogs was a nice touch

>>92137636
Stan threw in some pretty good zingers at Slott over Superior though

>Other companies have been releasing quality books for years
>Marvel releases one mediocre book after a boat load of shitty books/events

"WHY IS NO ONE TALKING ABOUT THIS?!"

>>92135833
>hydra
>not nazi
Nice try, Hitler.

>>92135734
The weirdest part about the event for me is just Cap being in uniform the whole time. He's literally running the country and he never takes off his damn super hero costume. It'd be like a soldier wearing camo all the time, even in private meetings.

>>92138781

God, this bugs me all the fucking time in Marvel comics. Carol Dancers goes to Bruce Banner's funeral in her costume (she's the only one). Everyone goes to a party after a fight, and they're all wearing their costume! Jeez, didn't they get sweaty in those things while they were fighting? Dumb shit.

>>92135734
>That the story is meant to be making commentary on the kind of extreme right wing nutjobs rising up in politics lately and how wrong they are.

>enforcing immigration laws is more extreme than engineering demographic collapse

This is the Marvel fanbase

>>92138618

I think the problem is that everyone IS talking about this, they're just not saying the right things.

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Just ignore /co/, it has become a combination between r/comicbooks and tumblr, they have made the side a cancerous place, with garbage taste for everything.

/co/ now has shit taste for everything, and it can't be helped. Ignore it and move on.

>>92138978
>Marvel shill runs out of copypastas
>can only accuse /co/ of bad taste for not liking a shit comic

>>92135734
I'm just tired of world shattering events spanning dozens of books.

>>92139118
>Oh, and how about some of the tactics conservatives in the US have and are using? The Khmer Rouge that killed about 1/3 of Cambodia’s population, a lot of them for the dire crime of being “intellectuals”? Also had fascist elements

Nigger this is like saying the Great Purge in Stalinist Russia or the anti-revisionist killings in Maoist China were "fascist"

When Communist governments target "intellectuals" it's not just because they're intellectuals, it's because they're propounding ideologies antithetical to the Communist state, be they liberal or rightist

>>92139167
anon you are responding to literal copy-paste from tumblr

>>92139184
This is some namefag so I assumed he was being serious

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>>92139118
You know, if you’re going to put out a response that essentially amounts to vomiting out a bunch of links that are mostly references back to your own posts, you’re not actually backing up anything you say with, you’re just making a large number of appeals to authority in the hopes that what you say will look well-researched enough that anyone arguing against you will give up.

That is to say, links to dozens of Tumblr posts which are mostly written by yourself isn’t providing proper citations, it’s textbook Gish Galloping, a type of argument that’s based primarily in exploiting “the bullshit asymmetry:”

Case in point, the only part that actually needs to be addressed, and the only part that really has any real relevance to the main point about Death of the Author, is the latter half of your post:

>Concerning “death of the author”….well….if we’re arguing about this story having relevance to real-life socio-political situations and impacting real people, maybe we SHOULD take facts into consideration, and not just people’s subjective and incomplete reaction to them.

>Never mind that “audience understanding” isn’t always what it’s cracked up to be.

>To illustrate the ferocity of the psychological dynamics at play, please consider that, Hannah Arendt’s Eichmann in Jerusalem remains highly controversial to this day and when it first was published, even went so far as to result in personal attacks against Arendt, alleging that she was a “self-hating, anti-Semitic Jew” who was more german than jewish.

>http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/01/books/review/fifty-years-later-why-does-eichmann-in-jerusalem-remain-contentious.html
>https://theamericanscholar.org/hannah-arendt-on-trial/#

>>92139213
>There can be several mechanisms at play that lead to the audience’s response to a work to be based more in emotion than in facts and thought, and as such can be irrational. For one, group-think, especially in the times of social media, can be a factor.

>Other dynamics that can be at play include the following:

>The backfire effect. (https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe)
>Kayfabe - emotional truth. (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/25/opinion/wrestling-explains-alex-jones-and-donald-trump.html)
>Cognitive Distortions (http://andarthas-web.tumblr.com/post/153727841073/seeing-this-upsets-me-so-it-must-be-wrong-and)

Once again you’re providing a whole lot of fancy-sounding arguments that, while they sound academic on paper, actually completely miss the point.

The mistake you’re making is being utterly dismissive of the audience’s response because it’s not based in “facts and thought,” which begs the question by assuming that the audience response is only meaningful if it is based on what your perception of “fact” is to begin with.

But there actually is nothing to say that a “nonfactual” interpretation of a work of fiction is less meaningful. That’s a complete distortion of Death of the Author, which you don’t seem to be rejecting so much as twisting to suit your own ends.

You further this by making a comparison to Eichmann in Jerusalem, as though the backlash to that is comparable to the backlash against something in Marvel Comics… but it isn’t. Hanna Arendt’s writing is for the most part nonfictional, and what is described in it are events that actually happened within the real world. Factual analyses matter here because the stories that are told are presented as factual and are designed to provoke introspection into actual reality.

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>>92139202
That's not a namefag, that's a tripfag. And none of the above are ever worth paying attention.

>>92139202
all the names are the tumblr blogs this is being copied from

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>>92139234
Fictional works, on the other hand, are purposefully built from the ground-up to not resemble any actual real-world events. There is nothing “true” or “false” in fiction because nothing it describes corresponds to the actual world, even if it draws from real-world ideas. The only actual meaning it can possibly have is the reaction that the audience draws from it.

This ties into your link on “cognitive distortions” and how people believe that their emotional reactions are “the way things really are.” When applied to actual, real-world events, this is indeed a dangerous way to think. The problem is that, when the emotional reaction is to something that by definition does not exist in the real world, you cannot in any circumstance claim their reaction “does not reflect reality” because fiction has no reality.

And that goes back to what I said. No amount of justification will change the fact that audiences think Hydra are Nazis, and that audience perception is what matters. Not only do many Jewish fans no longer feel safe in the Marvel Fandom, but actual Neo-Nazis are starting to use Captain America as a symbol of their ideals.

http://neetsfagging322297.deviantart.com/art/Captain-America-Rebellion-poster-633861202

And this isn’t like a fanfiction that you can just ignore and be on your way with: Hydra!Cap is the Captain America right now and there’s really no possible way to be a Marvel fan and not be exposed to this.

No story that Marvel Comics tells exists in the actual world, but the reaction to it very much does - and that’s why the audience reaction matters more than any “factual” analysis of something that by definition cannot be fact

>>92135760
Great, another retarded tripfag I need to filter.

When will you attention whoring cunts go back to plebbit/tumblr?

>>92138575
Well I'm impressed too, I like high quality bait.

Have a well earned (You)

>>92138328
This is Marvel, the Avengers once blew up Washington and got away with it. Killing a Named Character is a big deal while destroying a city is just a small thing.

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>We have come to point where standard Marvel bashing is being confused for sjw gibberish.

>>92135734
>SJWs miss the point this hard

It's almost amazing they have the ability to breathe.

>>92135734
Why I'm not reading Secret Empire:
1. It's another shitty fuckoff event.
2. Cap is fucking boring. He's always been boring. He'll always be boring. Give me Captain 'Murica.
3.It's another shitty fuckoff event.
4.It involves Cap's shitty, boring enemies. There's nothing interesting to do with NOT NAZI'S WE SWEAR in 2017 unless you're willing to go pedal to the metal with them. Full on Mutant Holocaust or something? Sure, fine, why not. But if you're going to pussyfoot around the whole issue then fuck it. We've been hearing NAZI NAZI NAZI for the last year.
5. Another. Shitty. Fuckoff. Event.

fascos mad that their book sucks xD