>God kills and torture several innocent Egyptians >"It's

>>91950175

>God punishes pharaoh for supporting a fascist regime that murders children via throwing them to crocodiles
>people who still stand by him after multiple plagues suffer too
>"WOOOOOOW"

And mind you, the tenth plague was a painless instant death to first borns, which is preferable to being horribly mutilated and ripped apart by crocs. AND he also gave them fair warning.

>>91950231
If God wanted to punish the Pharaoh then just fucking punish the Pharaoh. The people of Egypt were innocent of the Pharaoh's crimes.

>>91950175

>God creates a flawed universe of never ending suffering

>>91950272
>implying that humans don't deserve it

>>91950272

>the price to pay for free will is the ability to deny yourself a life of responsibility and meaning

it's their fault for worshipping inferior gods

>>91950175
From the Bible standpoint:

Remember it was the Lord who gave Joseph visions and told him how to be a great adviser to the Pharaoh which in-turn helped save Egypt from bad harvests and other shit.

They proceed to forget about Joseph and shit, then enslaved the Hebrew, then murdered their babies. Then God asks the Pharaoh to let his people go or he'll fuck them up, even after forgetting the baby killing and enslaving them after he helped the Hebrews help them.

Overall. They just had to let the fucking Hebrews go. Literally.

>Jewish deity knows how to manipulate suckers
Pretty accurate.

>>91950271

Well, like he said

"I am Egypt!"

>>91950291

>implying that God couldn't have created humanity to be perfect so that they wouldn't deserve it

>>91950271

He gave him multiple chances to change, but he was obstinate. And before you bring up that "God hardened his heart" line, I looked through a transliteration of the bible without any proofreading or translations, and it actually points out that "hardening the heart" was simply a phrase that meant that he wouldn't force him to change. Pharaoh still had the ability to let his people go, but he had to do it of his own free will.

Many modern translations translate this as "God allowed him to become obstinate."

Old testament God was savage anon, he killed innocent children for fun on many, many occasions

>>91950175
>two people fuck up
>punish billions of generations with disease and chaos but call it sin

>>91950350
We'll what's the fun in that

>>91950272
God is a narcissistic sadist, what do you expect? Better repent and go to heaven less you want to end up as fetish material for him when you arrive at Hell.

>>91950175
Meh, like most things the jews over exaggerated what really happened to make themselves feel better, plus its not like those assholes got off much better. God let them wander in circles for decades becuse he was miffed they didn't worship him enough

>>91950319
This. They explain in like the first sentence of Exodus that over time, people forgot about Joseph and all the good he did for Egypt. God was fulfilling his covenant with Abraham and Isaac by making their descendants mighty over other nations.

>>91950231
>preferable to being horribly mutilated and ripped apart by crocs
You gotta admit that's a crazy low bar. Both God and Pharaoh did horrible things in the story. Children don't deserve to be punished for the sins of their fathers.

>>91950231
>Fascist
So? Fascism wouldn't be considered evil 4000 years ago. Who else was better back then?

>>91950346
>>91950362
>let's fight terrosim with a more violent and cruel terrosim
God showed to be worse than the Pharaoh, not better.

Also it was Pharaoh's father crime, the current Pharaoh did nothing wrong.

>>91950319
From the common sense standpoint:
The bible is a collection of archaic myths from a primitive bronze age tribe, and should never be taken literally.

>>91950350

We wouldn't have free will then now would we? The price of free will is suffering, because life is suffering.

But in the face of that you rise up and transcend it, be the best person you can be so that you can reduce it as much as possible for those around you. But you have to sort yourself out first.

Because what's the alternative? We all make it worse for each other?

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>>91950175

>Starts a religious debate thinly veiled as a /co/ post

Well played, anon.

Don't forget the part where god also hardens Pharaoh's heart, thus forcing him to deny Moses' request.

>>91950439
>>91950391

The thing is that God has a right to do what the pharaoh did, because of his divine standards and justice, and he doesn't fall privy to human bias or emotion. Pharaoh attempting to claim himself as a God unfortunately needed a RUDE awakening. It does suck that the children were brought into it, but the alternative would be raising them as orphans and they would harbor eternal grudges. If they didn't believe in and worship their fathers, it's actually shown that God doesn't pass judgement on them. It happens alot in Leviticus I believe.

>Also it was Pharaoh's father crime, the current Pharaoh did nothing wrong.
He upheld the regime, unfortunately.

>>91950458
>Bible mentions historical events and real people/events like with Davis, Assyria, and more.
>Should never be taken literally
>Entire post
That is nice fedora you got there.

>>91950458
It was the Iron Age I think. And it can still be fun to talk about them as stories even if you don't believe in them as history.

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>It is "God and Satan went: hey God, wanna bet if this dude will hate you if you fuck with his life?" episode

>>91950537
Enjoy your sky fairy.

>>91950458
>Archaic Myths
>Never be taken literally
So I guess King Solomon and David were spooks. I guess Rome never owned the territory Jesus lived in.

Its a big old spook.

>>91950522
>anything God does is automatically justified
That's a boring cop-out. No point in discussing the morality of the story if we're going to assume God always wins.

I mean, I understand it from a religious perspective. But it's not very interesting.

>>91950577
The moral of Job is. Despite whatever happened to him in life, he still had God on his side. (Even if he did cause the bad things to happen.)

>>91950346

Not yet.

>>91950577
Satan had a point.

Someone can shout about being Pro-life, but frankly that means dick until their wife has a severely retarded baby and they have to choose to kill it or raise a brainless vegetable.

You can say cannibalism is a sin, but that morality is empty unless you've starved and only had human flesh as a way to survive.

>>91950593
>he fell for roman empire spook

Kek, bet that you also believe that stuff that happened before 1800s is real.

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>>91950175
despite being a religious movie, damn son, it did have some good fucking songs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bcg5rN-jlaw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH5y71hOvk0

I remembered christian metal is a thing, the 7 plagues would make a bretty good theme for a song

>>91950701
>an all-powerful omnipotent being got baited by a lesser being

>>91950439
>"Hey brother, slavery is bad, let my people go."
>"Fuck you, I need to build all this shit to justify my ego so I can exist outside my father's shadow."
>"K."
>All kinds of supernatural shit happens
>"Hey dude, wanna reconsider?"
>"Fuck you."
>"K."
>Lots of innocent people get caught in the crossfire
>"Seriously, let my people go."
>"Fuck you, these sores don't even itch that bad, your god is a pussy."
>"K."
>First born males eat shit
>"Hey can we go now-"
>"Fuck it, just get out of here."
>"Alrighty then, sorry it had to come to this, see ya around."
>"You know what on second thought I change my mind, fuck you twice."
>Rameses dies

He allowed his people to suffer so that he could maintain an immoral way of life for no reason other than to sate his own ego. People who pull this "Rameses did nothing wrong" shit are just contrarians.

>B-but God hardened his heart
That just means he didn't force Rameses to let everyone go. God gave him the opportunity to not be a prick and he didn't take it, even when the sky was raining fucking fire.

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>>91950580
>Actually pulling the "le invisible sky papa" meme
Remember to watch Bill Nye Saves the World (tm)! Now streaming on Netflix!

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>>91950175
>blaming Him for the Pharaoh's folly
You should now better then this, Son of Man

>>91950175
>Upper-crust of Egyptian society, supporting and profiting off of a system that espoused blasphemy and slavery in the eyes of the one true God
>Innocent
Pick one.

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>>91950739
*10 plagues of Egypt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8oYI90zxbc

man it's been a while since my mom forced me to go to sunday school

speaking Christian metal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRhg2zvalXc

well the band isn't technically christian metal,

the universe is flawed because we have free will, that's all

>>91950175
WE WUZ KILLED BY GAHD N SHEET

EGYPTIAN LIFE MATTERS

I'm sorry

>>91950922
>design a shitty system that is not self-sufficient and will sooner or later turn into massive void of nothingness
>blame a bunch of hairless apes and their free will for your shitty craftsmanship

>>91950319
>Overall. They just had to let the fucking Hebrews go. Literally.

...except that God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would refuse to let them go. God was intentionally stopping Pharaoh from doing what He wanted Pharaoh to do. Literally.

>>91950803
You're getting way too upset about someone saying that a religious story shouldn't be taken literally. They could have been nicer about it but it's true. There's a lot of history in the Bible, but archeological evidence says that Jews weren't enslaved in Egypt. There's true stories in the Bible, but the Exodus story isn't one.

>>91950175
Let's not forget that it was god who ultimately created humans
humans are evil
humans are creations of god
god created evil itself
god punishes humanity for it's own mistakes

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G-D is an absolute. The Pharaoh is a man. A mortal. Not absolute.

When the very being that made everything that was, is, and will be tells you to stop fucking murdering babies and let some people go, you fucking listen. Pharaoh said he was the equal to any god, G-D wanted to lay him low and shoe him what it meant to be against G-D.

>>91950319
>>91950386
>From the Bible standpoint
it says multiple times that god hardened pharaoh's heart

>>91951033
Guess that justifies murdering babies then.

>>91950362
>I looked through a transliteration of the bible without any proofreading or translations, and it actually points out that "hardening the heart" was simply a phrase that meant that he wouldn't force him to change
This is actually really interesting

>>91951067
Ultimately, yes. Pharaoh again said he was basically equal to G-D, and that he should be respected.

And yet somehow Pharaoh can't handle it when G-D gives him the same treatment.

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>>91950272
>God created a world where his subjects could choose to be loyal rather then mind controlled drones, but the first two fucked us all over by forfeiting their perfect lives and therefore their ability to pass on perfection to their children
>Then allowed his first born son to be executed on a torture stake (not a cross you fucks) in order to repay the debt of perfection that humanity lost with Adam, so that all humans have a hope of living in a paradise Earth

I dunno its not so bad

>>91951067
Heaven exists, remember. Those babies who died for another's sin probably got in.

>>91950488
>We wouldn't have free will then now would we?
isn't god omnipotent ans all knowing by this logic god could definitely make us perfect and still give us free will

also a god who knows everything that has happened will happen or could possibly happen goes against the idea of free will

>>91950175
>>91950231
>>91950272
>>91950319
If I didn't know any better I'd think God was a bit of a cunt.

>>91951089

Maybe if God wants to be respected, he should act like someone worthy of respect instead of being an asshole all the time.

>>91951089
Does G-D have some kind of meaning I'm missing?

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>>91950522
>because god did it it's right
No
people like you are fucking disgusting

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>>91950271
God wanted to punish Egypt.
By the Jewish moral standards they were not innocent. The fact their fathers partook in the slaughter of the Hebrew babies made them inherit their guilt as nobody had answered for those crimes. The Pharaoh made it even worse since he planned to turn it up to straight up genocide before God it him with the Aurora Mortalis
>>91950490
Is this your first Prince o Egypt Thread?
Prince of Egypt= Religious discussion particularly about the morality of god
Hercules= Mythological discussion particularly a Hades circlejerk
>>91951158
To be fair that suggest that everything that's going to happen is finite. God can know everything that will happen, including the things that "didn't" happen.

Also Tuya a MILF

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>>91951242
G-D granted miracles to those who believed in him and gave them the chance to go to a promised land. And is in general a pretty great guy if you're on his side.

>>No.91951158
>isn't god omnipotent ans all knowing by this logic god could definitely make us perfect and still give us free will

Then you wouldn't be able to sin in the first place and thus no free will. Because being perfect means that can't do certain things, and negating free will.

>>91951249
Cool rebuttal to his statement

>>91951089
Man, that's real dumb. Killing babies isn't ever justified. Even if you're God. Actually, especially if you're God. God could have snapped his fingers and teleported the Israelites to safety while killing Pharaoh or teaching him a lesson or anything he wanted. He's literally all-powerful and yet he got his way by killing children who did nothing wrong? Bullshit. Morality is real and it isn't "might makes right". Not everything God does is okay just because he can get away with it. Take off those religious blinders and look at this like a rational person interested in moral good.

>>91951144
Depends on the denomination you believe in. And that doesn't justify it regardless. I can't go around killing infants because I think they'll get into heaven. They deserve to live.

HIS UNIVERSE, HIS RULES.

Checkmate, heathens.

>>91951245
It's "God". Some people censor the word out of respect. I think it's primarily a Jewish thing.

>>91951162
Old Testament God can be perceived as such, but a lot of that is due to the OT jews being fucking idiots. For example, just 40 days after fleeing Egypt after witnessing the miracle of the Red Sea parting, they abandon God and worship a Golden Calf because Moses was gone for a month.

And he got over the Blood and Thunder stuff when he had a kid.

>>91951281
Does God have free will?

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>>91951290
G-D gave Pharaoh plenty of warning that he wasn't fucking around and should do what he was told.

Pharaoh kept going 'No, I am your equal!' And G-D kept trying to be nice with him until Pharaoh decided to force G-Ds hand. it really does suck for the children, but G-D had to do it to make a point.

>>91951144

Nope. Unbaptized babies go to Purgatory, but since they're incapable of remission before God they get to float in wretched nothingness for all eternity. All because God wanted to prove a point.

>>91951290
>Egyptian babies
>innocent

Also if you were a divine being and moral arbiter of the universe...yeah I think you could get away with giving babies a fast pass to heaven. What kind of asshole parents would want to stop their babies from going to heaven? What? So they can suffer on Earth like them? Not that heretic babies get into heaven Not that the Jewish faith believes in an afterlife at all

>>91950362
>He gave him multiple chances to change, but he was obstinate.
I hope this is pasta because that doesn't answer that anon's point.

There was no reason for anyone else to be subjected to the Pharaoh's due. There was no reason God couldn't touch the Pharaoh, he's God.
The Pharaoh's stubbornness is one thing, but God choosing to harm others is not answered by that.

>>91951290
Why would a god need to follow a human's concept of morality?

>>91951380
Why are babies incapable of remission?

>>91951401
>There was no reason for anyone else to be subjected to the Pharaoh's due. There was no reason God couldn't touch the Pharaoh, he's God.
Most people in egypt were fine with the hebrws being slaved. They are not innocent of guilt and even then he would have given them salvation if they believed in him over their gods.

>>91950175
>>91950231
>>91950271
The Real answer to this question is that they're both fuck heads

>>91950769
>"Hey brother, slavery is bad, let my people go."
>"Fuck you, I need to build all this shit to justify my ego so I can exist outside my father's shadow."
>"K."
>god kills innocent children because they just so happen to live under the rule of the pharaoh

pharaoh was not a good person but that in no way justifies the murder of innocent children

>That just means he didn't force Rameses to let everyone go
get the fuck out of here it's clearly god mind-controlled the pharaoh into not letting them go

>>91950986
He didn't harden his heart until near the end of the plagues

Literally had the chance to let them go before the plagues, during the plagues, and right before the ending of them and his heart was hardend.

He didn't change his stance.

>>91951028
>Humans are evil.
Wew. Humans do a lot more good than evil. Its just evil is noticed more because there is too much good around not to notice when evil happens.

>>91951276
>And is in general a pretty great guy if you're on his side.

Right up until he needs to prove a point to Satan. Or if you have kids, holy shit God hates kids. Nine times out of ten if you have kids he's going to make you kill one, or offer them up to be gang-raped, or something else fucking horrible.

>>91951379
And why was he trying to negotiate with humans to begin with? How could a human force God's hand? He's all powerful. He didn't have to do it. He could have mind controlled people. Or come down in a big thunderous storm to yell at the Egyptians. Or he could have just stuck with the more mild plagues. Or he could have kidnapped the kids and given them to the Israelites to raise as their own.

He's God. There are countless ways in which he could have won without killing a soul. You're making him sound like a coward.

>>91951431
>Doesn't justify the murder of innocent children.
What justified the Egyptians murdering the innocent babies of the Hebrew?

>>91951431
>clearly
Nah it was just Ramses' own stubborness.
>>91951456
Ramses' hardened his own heart. That's why god did it again before the final plague.
It's all ironic punishment for all the bullshit Egypt and the Pharaohs got up to.
>>91951488
Why would he do that though?

>>91950175
whatever this is all fictional jewish propaganda anyway

>>91951371
He does, and you're probably going to say that if he has free will and perfect, then why can't he make humans like that. Well you'll be forgetting that this God is omnipotent, so he can do these sins that he hates, but he says himself that he won't. Humans, even perfect, can't be omnipotent to do the same as God, which would be just making another God if you think about it.

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>>91951472
>Prove a point to satan
G-D gave Job far more than Job ever had.
>>91951488
>And why was he trying to negotiate with humans to begin with?
Because he was trying to be merciful and he was trying to give Pharaoh a chance to repent. Pharaoh kept giving G-D the middle finger and telling him to fuck off. Eventually, action needs to be taken.

>>91951408
Because he's supposed to be good. If killing babies is good then the word has no meaning.

>>91951502
Nothing. And no one said otherwise.

Two people can do bad things.

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>>91950175
>let's point out flaws of the original and blame the adaptation for them
A U T I S M
U
T
I
S
M

>>91951033
>The version of a monotheistic deity that has filtered and mutated through centuries of different cultures, philosophies, is "absolute"
>Much less the same deity worshipped by desert tribes thousands of years ago

I expect better from /co/, a board that should know first hand how a character can change and mutate over mere decades of reboots, editorial mandates, and creative teams.

>>91951488
Not that Anon.

>Why was he negotiating with humans.
Its not negotiating when he tells you to do something and you refuse. He also had to shit on the Egyptians for being cunts after forgetting the nice things him and Joseph did.

>How could a human force God's hand?
By refusing to do what he asked.

>He didn't have to do it.
He had a promise to the Hebrews.

>He could have mind controlled people.
You didn't read the Bible. God allows free will and doesn't do mind control because that would go against free will.

>Big thunder storm
He did. He made it rain fire and hail on Egypt

>Kidnapped the kids and gave them to the Israelites
While they were still in bondage?

>>91951425
>Most people in egypt were fine with the hebrws being slaved.
What do they have to do with anything? They're not in charge of shit. What kind of kangaroo court is this?!
>and even then he would have given them salvation if they believed in him over their gods.
Fucksake, this is like someone breaking into your house and saying you won't get raped if you consent.
First person to say that's technically correct can get fucked tonight

>>91951533
That's just your opinion man.

>>91951510
>Why would he do that though?
So as to not harm the innocent.

>>91951269
>To be fair that suggest that everything that's going to happen is finite

in the bible it says that god already know the names of everyone who will ever get into heaven if that's not finite what is

also nothing in this post invalidates the point that if god wanted to make perfect humans with free will he could

>>91951582
G-D is an absolute creator and deity, as he is the sole creator and deity. There are none above him and none that are his equal or below him. he is Absolute.

>>91951531
>G-D gave Job far more than Job ever had.

Yeah. He gave Job dead kids, a destroyed farm, boils, and a ruined life. That's way better than the shit he had before. I mean, seriously, who would ever want kids that are alive and a wife that isn't raped to death by bandits?

>>91951533
What constitutes as "good" is immensely subjective and developed through your own social upbringing.

As a human, you are unable to tell a God, fuck THE GOD at that what is good and what is evil.

>>91951622
For his loyalty Job properly gets max comfy spot in heaven.

>>91951622
Job trusted in G-D to make things right, and he did. Job was satisfied with this.

G-D is a fair and loving ruler even if he does not work in ways comprehensible to humans, because he is not a human. But you need to trust in G-D for him to reward you. It is not an easy concept to understand.

>>91951598
Except God was objectively right that he was the One True God they should be worshipping.

>>91951529
So he should make humans good with free will but not omnipotent.

>>91951531
>G-D gave Job far more than Job ever had.
He didn't get his kids back. He got different kids.
>action needs to be taken
Not killing babies. Literally anything else. He's all powerful. You're limiting him to this one thing for no reason.

>>91951590
>God allows free will and doesn't do mind control because that would go against free will.

But it isn't really free will if you tell someone they better obey or you'll do horrific things to them for the rest of eternity.

>>91951533
You are like a pathetic goldfish trapped in its bowl, with a mind so primitive that it cannot even begin to comprehend the complexities of the mind of the potentially existing higher being, because it is impossible for your mind to go beyond patterns and beliefs established by your own kind. Why do you try to measure the mind of a more developed being by your own inferior standards?

>>91951662
>He didn't get his kids back. He got different kids.
Job was fine with this. How is this a problem? He understood G-D had a plan for him, and he did.

>>91951281
why are you a human putting limitations on what god can do? if god is truly all-powerful there is literally nothing he can't do even if it doesn't make sense to us. or are you arguing that god isn't all-powerful?

>>91951608
He didn't.
>>91951610
>in the bible it says that god already know the names of everyone who will ever get into heaven if that's not finite what is
And do you know number of names?
>>91951662
>limiting him to this
He didn't need to do anything different. His course of action was not wrong.

>>91951607
Good point. Let's throw out all moral philosophy because it's just an opinion. Let's do whatever we want because the Dude doesn't care.

>>91951158

>isn't god omnipotent ans all knowing by this logic god could definitely make us perfect and still give us free will

Wasn't that basically Adam and Eve, before they were cast out of paradise?

>>91951661
>Except God was objectively right that he was the One True God they should be worshipping.
And as The One Above All he had no other recourse but to send plagues?

>People defending god
Wew

>>91951590
>While they were still in bondage?
They didn't have to be in bondage. God could have freed them literally whenever. He should have.

>>91951684
Hell being eternal isnt a thing in many denominations. And if we go by Dante the first circle isnt bad at all.

>>91951662
Then your going back to point A again, if they can only do good, then that's not free will.

>>91951684
You have free choice to do what he says or refuse.

It is technically free will, as the choice to refuse is open. It wouldn't be free will if God just made him do it without the option of refusal.

>>91951510
>Nah it was just Ramses' own stubborness.
so why does it say god hardened pharaoh's heart instead of the pharaoh hardened his own heart

>>91951718
>before they were cast out of paradise?

After they ate the apple.

Which God knew they would do, but got pissed about anyway.

>>91951763

When did Hell start being a thing anyway?

>>91951727
He was sending a message. He said if they didn't do what he said he'd send plaques. They didn't do what he said, so he sent the plaques.

>>91950231
What a load of shit you just posted. Do you think every Egyptian was aware of the mass infant killing? Or had a part in it?

It's like me saying you are guilty of a crime committed by an ancestor of yours 400 years ago.

Fuck you.

Also according to God, God made everything happen. God made the Pharoah throw those infants to the Crocodiles, and he made the Pharoah enslave his people. There is no free will.

>>91950175
Then Pharaoh shouldn't have declared himself a Living God.

YHWH had to bitchslap all the Egyptian Deities, not just the ones with animals on their heads.

>>91950577
Fun fact, but the conversation between the Deceiver and YHWH at the start of Job is a later addition. The original version of Job was the story of his suffering, the religious debate (except the last part), and then God knocking sense into everyone.

In addition to some of the most beautiful poetry in the bible (especially with Job's contemplating suicide), it also has some of the most fascinating discussion of God's role in the universe. Because in Job, God points out that his creation is a violent, unruly, and illogical place. One where mothers abandon children, predators must kill to survive, and life itself never quite makes sense.

We don't understand everything nor have the power to control all creation, so who are we to dictate what is or is not right? God gave us laws to follow, and that is all we are meant to follow.

>>91951590
>God allows free will
why can't god have free will and perfect humans

>>91951763
>And if we go by Dante the first circle isnt bad at all.

...Dante's Inferno was an allegorical satire. You realize that, yes?

>>91951684
Yes, because your still choosing, eternal happiness or eternal despair. Like, your still choosing here and no one forcing anyone to do anything in that situation.

>>91951717
Or at the very least not apply it to being to whom our morality cannot apply.

>>91951787

So what you're saying is that God pretends to give you a choice when he already knows if you're going to hell or not because God is a dick?

>>91951840
Dude I literally just asked that earlier in the thread

>>91951814
The "Eternal Brimstone" image of Hell is linked to Protestantism, while the general concept of "Bad Afterlife" is present in a ton of ancient cultures and as such doesnt have a clear origin.

>>91951711
And do you know number of names?
doesn't matter what i know god knows it and it's simple fact that he knows it means it's set in stone or are you going to argue that logic doesn't apply to god in this one specific instance but it doesn't all the other ones

>>91951033
Phaorah had no reason to believe God was the supreme being and creator.

>>91951858
Yeah, but it's still an interesting look at the kind of place Hell could be.

>>91951815
>He was sending a message.
I didn't realized he was the Godfather. There's no other means for an omniscient, omnipotent figure to navigate or negotiate a matter without straight fucking the opposition?
OR
Or, is it that it chooses to navigate it how it wills.

>>91951718
>Wasn't that basically Adam and Eve
no i'm arguing that god could create perfect humans who would commit no sin and yet still had free will Adam and Eve committed sin

>>91951379
If God is so powerful and great why didn't he just free the slaves himself?

The fucked part is that God exerted his will on Pharaoh, hardening his heart.

He ensured the Pharaoh wouldn't give in.

If he was that powerful, why not just make Pharaoh a better person?

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Why are movies about Christianity so based?

Check and mate, atheists.

>>91951840
>perfect
>humans
Would they even be human anymore?Those are literally the antonyms of each other.

>>91951873
>our morality
Or if we believe the Bible, God's own morality. He doesn't even follow his own rules. I'm just a mere human and I don't go around killing babies. God of all people should be able to easily follow such a basic rule.

>>91951927
You keep avoiding the fact Pharaoh (And by his own opinion, Egypt) brutalised God's chosen people and refused to stop. That doesn't go without punishment.

>>91951911
The Pharoh literally saw Moses staff turn to a creature because of God and literally Moses saying the plagues will happen because of this God, If I was the Pharaoh I would beg on my knees. immediately.

>>91951896

This. Judaism doesn't even have a true Hell. You just cease to be.

>>91951969

Why even create a pharaoh? Or war? Or anything bad?

>>91952001
The Pharoah believes in Gods, who purportedly do similar things. He has reason to believe God exists, but not that he is THE God. As far as he knew, his Priests could do similar things.

>>91951999
The children are not Pharaoh. They didn't deserve punishment.

>>91951901
I don't know, only God knows the number of names.
But you're the one inferring that the reality that god knows is as limited and simple as the one we view.
>>91951995
His rules for humanity. Since you like dragging God down to the level of humans it's akin to telling your toddler not to drink liquor but then you enjoy a glass yourself.

>>91952001

His own guys did that, and no, it wasn't portrayed a trick. They had their own magic, but inferior Gods.

>>91952027
They don't quite have Heaven either, instead the Messiah will come to make Earth perfect.

>>91952058
There's a reason adults can have liquor. There's also a reason why adults and God aren't supposed to kill people.

>>91951763
>Isn't bad at all
It's just kind of lame and it's implied to get worse when Christ retakes Earth but only because it sucks that much harder being denied feeling the presence of God. Also you don't get the good seats unless Dante is a fanboy of you.

>monotheist-fags

I'll bet you salty fucks don't even know about God's wife and brothers.

>>91951972
I've always wanted something where God comes down and tells everyone God doesn't exist
>What
See, he explains, throughout the universe, that all the shit everyone's written? That wasn't him, in fact most of it was just made up. He doesn't know what they're on about. He tells them he's not taking any questions and just leaves.

>>91952111
But the adults just said the babies can't have liquor. Why can't they follow their own rules?

>>91952001
>Pharoh literally saw Moses staff turn to a creature

I literally saw David Copperfield make the Statue of Liberty disappear. Is that also the will of God? Or is it maybe an elaborate trick?

>>91952064
They were obviously tricks the Priests were doing. The only thing that could have been seen as magic is them miraculously appearing in another place without a reasonable amount of time to physically get there. Though for all we know those guys standing in those alcoves at the "well forgive us these smiles on our faces" bit were just look-a likes while the real Priests snook up behind Moses.

>put upon Hebrew slaves

>2017

The Hebrews weren't even slaves, though.

>>91952187

No, in the movie it was a trick.

I'm talking about the actual texts. Nothing signified it as a trick, just that their power was lesser.

>>91952064
I don't know, I mean something after one or two plagues I think that's more than enough to believe that this God has some value of it existence.

>>91950439
>>let's fight terrosim with a more violent and cruel terrosim
you mean, like [unsolicited opinion on Israel]

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>>91952184
Doubting our Lord and Savior Copperfield

ITT people justifying the murder of innocent children and babies because "God did it"

>>91951137

>a torture stake (not a cross you fucks)

Are you a door-to-door, anon?

>>91951686
It's interesting that we can know things about God that conform with religious teaching, but when someone says "God is immoral" it's all "oh we're too small to know God's deal". Rather convenient way to stop thinking about it.

>>91952292
Greater good and so on. If God does it, it's for the greater good. Who are we to question the mind of God?

>>91950272
>Christian God creates a paradise for humans and only ask that they not eat from one single tree on the entire planet
>Eats from tree
>Gains the knowledge of free will and becomes self conscious of ones existence and actions
>God abandons humans since they could think they can do it all by themselves

I dunno man, seems like kiddie human turned into a teenager real fast and stormed out of the house at 18.

>>91952001
Pharaoh's priests did the same thing with their staves

>>91950371
That's horrible. Suffering exists, because without it, God would be bored.

>>91952345
>omnipotent omniscient creator puts a tasty fruit that mustn't be consumed in a garden
>it's the retard monkeys fault that he eats it

>>91951622
I thought the satan did all of that

>>91952259
If God did it then it's not murder

>>91952331
Rational beings created in his image and with a personal relationship with him. Why wouldn't we be able to question him? He shouldn't have given us minds if he doesn't want us to use them.

>>91952393
Hey man, if my dog stole my steak off my plate I'd be pretty pissed, too. Even if he is a dumb dog. He should be trained to know better at this point.

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>>91952331
>doubting Him, His teaching and His love
>thinking the Pharoah didn't have it comming
>implying He wasn't merciful by sparing the Egyptians the full extent of His wrath

>>91952435
well if you literally knew everything it's kinda your fault for not preventing it. And in your example the stake actually has a purpose apart from just baiting your dog into eternal punishment for all descendants.

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>>91952220
Zounds, I thought we were talking about Prince of Egypt the animated movie, for this is /co/ afterall, and this is a Prince of Egypt thread, is it not?

>>91952345

>be omnipotent and omniscient
>know long before I ever make Eden, the tree of knowledge, or humans that Adam and Eve were going to eat the fruit
>make all three things anyway
>tell them not to eat the fruit even though I know for a fact that they will
>still get angry and throw them out of paradise for eating the fruit

Is... is God autistic? Is that why the world sucks?

>>91952525
Yes, why do you think there's so many wars?

If he's going to make his creation just to fuck with it? Why make it in the first place? Is he just having a giggle?

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>>91952525
>Is... is God autistic? Is that why the world sucks?
Yeah, pretty much.

>>91951137
Nice words thing, anon.

>>91952525
Not autistic, just non-existant and written by sub-animal primitive trogs. All arguments lead to God being Evil or not Omnipotent/Omniscient because he's just a bad idea.

>>91952632
Why would you say that on a good Christian imageboard like 4chan?

Aren't we all rednecks here?

>>91952662
I don't know about you fags, but I'm a loli who likes tea parties.

>>91950175
God should have just teleported them away, but unfortunately that concept is to new and god can only do things that narrow-minded ancient people know about, but can not explain.

>>91952481
It's interesting to compare the movie's interpretation to the text. The movie takes the modern view that God is the only supernatural entity and that any supernatural event that doesn't directly involve Him must ipso facto be fake.

The Hebrews however believed that the heathen gods were real and powerful, but that these beings were inferior to God. This view evolved over the millenia, and Christians believed that the beings that empowered Pharaoh's priests to turn sticks into serpents were either demons or some other type of renegade from the Heavenly Host.

>>91952662
Only /pol/edditors believe that, anon. We're all godless, perverted little girls here.

>>91950175
I don't mean to upset you Christians, but Moses is better than Jesus.

Moses at least did something. Jesus "died for our sins", yet people keep sinning.

Bravo Christ.

>>91952468
>>91952525

I don't know if God has been portrayed as an accurate future teller, considering he often doesn't know the outcome of most things.

I don't know every iteration of The Origins story but if I were to guess based on my years of loosely paying attention in my parents fellowship, I'm going to say the Tree was to give humans the option if they wanted to break away from God, not just bait them. They chose free will over blind servitude to an omnipotent being, so God sent them out to the real world (AKA: Kicked them out of Paradise) to go live for themselves.

He continued to watch that family line become corrupt, starting with their kids Cain went as far as killing his own brother, Abel, all the way up to the time of Noah where he realized, "Fuck, they're a mess of bad genes" where he decided to try and "start over" to hopefully eliminate generations of greed, sloth, pettiness, etc. He promised he would never do that again, even if humans turned out the same. If that's the way humans are meant to be, it's the way.

The response to the Egyptians is that God didn't like his memory was fading and that people were praising another human. He didn't like that his only followers were slaves who told them that he is their god. It's why he didn't punish Greece or Rome: Even if they had other religions, Christianity was still alive and they were not being punished.

Jesus was a response of God being fucking tired of trying to guide humans from a distance and watching them advance in techniques to war, become more forgetful of their origins, use torture as a form of entertainment, kind of just turn into Noah's generation again. He wanted to absolve them of their "original sin" which he thought was the reason why humans kept fucking each other over. It's like the Sea World story where the Orca whale kills and every offspring he has kills because it's in their bloodline at that point.

Jesus was kind of God's last stand and has pretty much kept quiet since.

>>91952843
>I'm going to say the Tree was to give humans the option if they wanted to break away from God, not just bait them. They chose free will over blind servitude to an omnipotent being, so God sent them out to the real world (AKA: Kicked them out of Paradise) to go live for themselves.
except the story is that they were tricked into eating it, so no dice

>>91952872
Specifically tricked by another of God's creations.

>>91952872
I meant the reason it exists in the first place, because God could have just chosen not to put it in. It was kind of a catch-22 Tree. God puts it there to give them the option but knows they CAN'T because they don't have the free will to do so. The Devil (Disguised as a snake) lures them in and God gets pissed his catch-22 didn't work and that his own creations were flawed.

Christian God is way more Greek-like than people act like. He's basically just a step above Zeus. He's just as flawed, petty, sometimes even stupid. You can theorize that's why he's pissed at humans, because he wanted to make something perfect but because it came from it, it inherently cannot. No one in Christian groups really talk about God with the same level of "character development" as they do Zeus or Hades, but they should. His personality becomes way more interesting than if you just boil it down to, "Eh, he's an asshole" like a lot of people do.

>>91952912
didn't the devil posses the snake or some shit

>>91951269
>my father commit a crime
>that makes me also guilty
Bullshit

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the egyptian gods also exist in this myth, but are just getting bitchlapped by the jewish god?

>>91952999
>My father had a ton of debt
>He dies and I get the burden passed down

>>91950522
The plagues also served a double purpose because they each happened within the domain of an Egyptian deity who are supposed to have absolute power over what they are god of. By demonstrating his control over these aspects of life, God was showing he was bigger and badder than the Egyptian pantheon.

>>91952997
Satan was still a creation of God.

>>91953030
Also, bullshit.

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>>91953030
>dad gets tricked by a snake into a eating wumpa fruit
>i get the burden of being tortured for all eternity

just makes sense

>>91951988
Would they even be human anymore?
they're whatever god wants them to be

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Is there a /co/ character strong enough to defeat the God of Abraham?

>>91950175
You mean God is a selfish asshole? Who'd have thought.

>>91953096
>Dad has stupid genes
>I get the stupid genes, too

>>91952058
>you're the one inferring that the reality that god knows is as limited and simple as the one we view
no you are saying that i'm the one saying that there is no limit to the things god knows

>>91953096
>father tells son and daughter not to touch thing
>they touch thing
>father puts them in time-out
>"Yo wtf dad we dindu nuffin"
Really activates my almonds

>>91953135
Depends on the writer.

>>91953203
>Father knows ahead of time that son and daughter will touch thing
>Puts thing where they can touch it
>They don't touch it
>Step-son tricks them into touching it
>Punish son and daughter
Really get's my mind jogging.

>>91953203
It would be more like
>father tells son and daughter not to touch thing
>they touch thing
>father kicks them out on the street
>they grow up on the street where they learn awful things and their future generations turn into drug dealers, crack addicts, thieves, and form gangs

>>91953030
This does not happen in most civilized parts of the world.

>>91950769
Fucking hell anon, not sure how you did it but the way you write made me shoot mineral water out from my nose.

>>91950231

God hardened Pharaoh's heart... five times... so he could demonstrate his power.

Read the fucking Bible.

>if you don't believe I exist I will torture you for eternity also I refuse to give you solid proof that I exist even though it would be easy for me to do

>>91952843
>don't know if God has been portrayed as an accurate future teller, considering he often doesn't know the outcome of most things.

so are you saying that god isn't all-powerful and all-knowing?

>>91950639

Why was God placating the devil even? He killed everyone and everything Job ever loved. True, he gave him everything back and more but what kind of bullshit is that?

>>91953277

>if you don't believe I exist I will torture you for eternity

Debatable.

>>91953236
>""friend"" convinces you to jump off a cliff
>you break your legs in the fall
>It's your fault dad that I listened to that guy
Really fires up the neurons

>>91953283
If he was, he wouldn't struggle so fucking much in dealing with us slightly-above-ape-creatures to begin with.

>>91953135
>the God of Abraham
there are plenty of cosmic level characters that have way better feats

>>91953301
it specifically says that non-believers go to hell in the bible

What a shockingly tame stealth religion thread on 4chan.

I'm kind of proud of you, /co/.

>>91953317
This only works if your dad created the cliff for you to fall off of, knew you were going to do so but told you not to, and you still did.

>>91953361

Exactly what that entails and the duration is not interpreted uniformly across all sects of Christianity.

>>91951052
Pharoh was god you dolt. It was mocking the Egyptians for believing that.

>>91953317
>you program a robot
>it does what it is programmed to do
>you punish it for do what it was programmed to do

god made humans the way they are if he wanted them to be different he could have done that

>>91953185
Yes. So what's so hard to get about a reality in which God can know everything and that doesn't constrain the idea of free will?

>>91953329
What's the best Yahwe has done in the Bible?

Swarm of locusts and frogs?
Spread disease?
deadly hailstorm?
turn the river into blood?

>>91951431
Moses outright told Pharaoh of the final plague, and Pharaoh still refused to let the Hebrews take a few days off for a religious retreat in the mountains. At that point, who's really at fault?

You're forgetting that this is God who smote the firstborns, not the ruler of some other mighty kingdom. You piss him off, and bad shit happens to you.

>>91953402
>Pharoh was god
this has to be one of the stupidest interpretation of the bible i've heard in a long time right up there with the people who thinks revelations is supposed to be taken literally

Who is the best religious figure?

HARD MODE: No Jesus or God

>>91953497
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krishna

>>91953497
The Holy Spirit

>>91953497
Siddhartha.
Hinduism is a cosmic pyramid scheme.

>>91953497
I like the ones that go to adventures like Hadad, Sun Wukong, Alcides and Thor.

>>91953497
Noah, dude's based as fuck.

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>reading Jewish fan-fiction

None of this shit happened anyway.

>>91953074
Shit you right

>>91953585
It happened about as much as any /co/ story we talk about here.

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>>91953497
Jim Jones, obviously (except for the cyanide Flavor-Aid part)

>>91953568
You don't read cartoons, retard.

>>91953462
>So what's so hard to get about a reality in which God can know everything and that doesn't constrain the idea of free will?

if god is truly all powerful than he can absolutely do this but that's my point

okay so now that you are agreeing with me that god can do things that are logically impossible

why do we need to be able to commit sin to have free will?

>"kill your son bro do it or I swear you'll go to hell"
>"it was just a joke you pussy haha wow"

what a fucking dick

>>91953488
>At that point, who's really at fault?
the person who killed innocent children so both of them

>You piss him off, and bad shit happens to you.
so right now if god came down to earth and told trump to do something and he said no do you think it would be okay for god to kill all the first born children in america?

>>91953497
Jethro was pretty based

Everybody says that God did all the terrible shit to Job......but I read that it was Satan that did that and God allowed it to happen just so he could prove Satan wrong. Is each story story becuase I was raised on the latter version where Satan fucks over Job.

>>91953487
he created the universe too but there are tons of characters who have created universes

>>91953497
Probably Sun Wukong

>Being of infinite power and wisdom gives you life and the ability to experience beauty and joy on the world you live in and communities you surrround yourself with
>Life a life of mystery, discovery and wonder while helping eachother grow

The fucking least you can do is just do him a favor and follow the few instructions he gives you

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>>91953135
Abragod has a canon weakness to iron, so...pic related.

>>91953497
buddha he does much cooler shit than god or jesus all the time go read journey to the west

>>91953772
What fucking instructions? The ones he left for Moses to etch in stone WAY after he created the Earth?

God is a lazy cunt.

>>91953829

>What instructions
>Can't be bothered to look 'em up

Sounds like you're the lazy cunt

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>>91951972
You can't prove a negative. Prove that unicorns don't exist. Dipshits think this is a real argument...

>>91952345
>>Gains the knowledge of free will and becomes self conscious of ones existence and actions
They gained knowledge of good and evil. They already had free will.

>>91953772
If he's all knowing, he'll know how to convince people that his instructions are a good idea.
If he's all powerful, he'll have the ability to do that

There is no excuse for an all-powerful, all-knowing being to be too lazy to explain something when doing so is exactly as easy as not doing so.

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>>91953718
He just wanted to see how much of an absolute madman Abraham was, nothing wrong with that.

>>91953853
The problem is that there are multiple sets of instructions, some of which contradict each other.

>>91953737
>so right now if god came down to earth and told trump to do something and he said no do you think it would be okay for god to kill all the first born children in america?
Well, God has no covenant with the Americans like he did with the Israelites, and killing the firstborns was a last resort. And also he wasn't killing the people who refused to listen to him, he was killing those who killed his chosen people. So that's not really a good analogy at all, but for the sake of argument let's overlook that.

To answer your question, it goes against what I would personally consider acceptable for a person to do, but that's irrelevant, because it isn't a person doing it, it's the omnipotent and omniscient God who created the universe, and applying human standards of morality to a deity beyond human comprehension is just about as apples-to-oranges as you can get.

>>91953853
I thought we were talking about the movie? I know fine well what the rules are? They didn't for the longest time.

>>91953878
>If he's all knowing, he'll know how to convince people that his instructions are a good idea
Do you know nothing about other human beings, anon?

>>91953878

He's a God and you're not, your understanding or perspective of such things is irrelevant

>>91953917
It is possible to convince human beings to do or not do things.

If someone is really all-knowing, as in they know everything and there is nothing that they do not know, then they will know exactly how to convince each specific person of something.

God, being both all-knowing and all-powerful, could effortlessly come up with an argument that could convince any listener to do what he is telling them to do.

>>91950992
Oh I wasn't that guy, I actually totally agree that you shouldn't take all aspects of the Bible at face value.
I just find "le big cake in the sky" to be the spergiest stereotype among athiests.

>>91953914
Obviously the instructions that >>91953853 was raised with. His specific denomination. What else?

>>91953984
>It is possible to convince human beings to do or not do things.
Do you seriously not know what denial is?

>>91953744
But Job calls God out and God shows him turtles laying eggs and yells, "I RUN THIS SHIT". This is somehow acceptable to Job.

>>91954013
THAT'S THE DEVIL'S WORK, BOY.

>>91953975
> He's a God and you're not, your understanding or perspective of such things is irrelevant

"He's God and you're not" isn't a very convincing argument. An all-powerful God could give a vastly more convincing argument for exactly the same effort.

>>91951431
>pharaoh was not a good person but that in no way justifies the murder of innocent children
Look at it this way, anon.
In this scenario, God definitely exists. If God exists, then Heaven exists.

So if those children truly exist, then they were simply jumped ahead to enter paradise while Rameses stewed with his pride and his blood river and his frog storms.

>>91954013
It's something that happens sometimes. Not always though, and an all-knowing, all-powerful God would know exactly what to say in order to avoid it and get that 1% chance to actually convince the person.

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>>91953772
>getting bossed around by something that doesn't exist

>>91953011

So do the Greek gods. There's a passage in one of the earlier Bibles (I think it was removed from the King James version?) where Jesus goes down to Tartarus, talks shit on Hades, and then tells all the souls trapped there that some day he'll come back and free them.

>>91953915
>but that's irrelevant, because it isn't a person doing it, it's the omnipotent and omniscient God

so your argument is that if god does it it's right?

i guess you will just have to agree to disagree because i don't believe it ever right to kill children and you clearly believe otherwise

>>91954032
>An all-powerful God could give a vastly more convincing argument for exactly the same effort.
Such as?

>>91954013
>Do you seriously not know what denial is?

do you seriously not know what all-powerful and all-knowing means?

if god wanted to convince anyone of anything he could do it without violating their free will because he's all-powerful

>>91950175
Old Testament God was the shit. Don't fuck with him.

>>91954129
We'd know if he gave one. That anon isn't all-powerful. Their point was that God is strangely silent.

>>91953236
>Father still want test them and give them a choice.
>Father also knew that it would work out in the end
>Brother still choose to follow his step-sister
Really shakes my nuts

>>91954050
>then Heaven exists.
the concept of heaven as we know it today did not exist in the old testament

but lets say you are right so how do you explain why the plagues

>>91954129
Well, for starters, an all-powerful, all-knowing God would know exactly what the person he's talking to cares about most, and could tailor his argument to exploit the specifics of that person's life/experiences/beliefs.

Then, such a God could utilize his ability to know how everything is going to turn out to foresee any possible objections or problems that the listener might have regarding the argument, and address them before the person even raises them.

If you have a being that is actually both all-powerful and all-knowing, then it basically has the ability to convince anyone of anything. It knows everything, so it knows how to do it, and it can do anything, so it can put it into action.

>>91952525
>know long before I ever make Eden, the tree of knowledge, or humans that Adam and Eve were going to eat the fruit

Out of respect of the free will of humans, he doesn't look towards their future actions and decisions. The world sucks because out of 10 quintillion trees with probably waaay better fruit, Adam and Eve had to eat the ONE God said not to.

>>91953487
Yahweh is invincible, nothing can triumph him. He can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants. He doesn't even have to play by the rules of the universe. Trying to put another cosmic being against him would be pretty pointless.

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>>91954262
>God intentionally allows suffering so that he doesn't appear to be a hypocrite even though he's completely capable to stopping suffering and still not being a hypocrite.

>>91954175
>father has retarded child
>punish your child for being retarded
>even though the father couldn't make the kid normal at any time
>in fact the father could make the child perfect with the no negative consequences but for some reason doesn't

>>91954015
Yeah but that didn't really answer my question tho. All Job did was ask why evil people get to live and not get a formal punishment. I don't think God gave him an answer only to be patient and yeah say I run this shit = You don't know sit about creation buddy boy.

>>91954262
>Out of respect of the free will of humans
god all-powerful he could make a world without suffering and still let everyone keep their free will

>>91950756
Was Satan the original shitposter?

>>91954290
there are literally thousands of characters in fiction with this exact same power set

An all knowing, omnipotent being would be incapable of action

>>91954316
Free will means the ability to steal and murder as well.

A paradise with free will is literally a paradox.

>>91954262

I'd post that image of Epicurus but I think somebody else already has.

Ah, yep. there it is. >>91952608

>>91954434
>omnipotent
>incapable
choose one

>>91954435
Only in the imperfect world we currently know. An all-powerful being would be able to create a world that is a paradise and free will exists. Saying otherwise robs God of his all-powerful status and makes him only sorta-powerful.

>God creates Cain, sets up an unfair scenario that will make him snap, and allows him to commit murder
>God then punishes Cain with a horrible curse that even affects his innocent descendents

Old Testament God was a dick

>>91953497
Harambe

>>91950175
>Bro comes in and says, "Hey pharaoh, keeping the slaves might be a bad idea".
>Pharaoh goes "Fuk you, my celebrity guest voices can do the same shit you can. Get out of my fucking face."
>Bad shit happens

Seems logical.

>>91954483
It robs him just as much as saying that humans can have free will but won't do any evil shit.

Even the nicest person can be pushed to commit murder, and that's kind of the point of free will. Nothing is "stopping" him, not even his amazingly saint-like personality.

>>91954473
If something was all knowing it wouldn't be able to pick a side, which is required for any action to take place.
God exists, but it's just just an infinite blob of white mass outside the universe that's incapable of doing anything because it's incapable of choosing a side in the fight since it can see things from all perspectives.

>>91952608
>is God autistic
A 12 year old one specifically.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5E3sBBUq6s#t=3m

>>91954498
It was their economic system.

>>91954489
Old Testament God was invented to keep the mindless peasants living in fear so they'd give all their crops to the church.

>>91954530
Nothing you said has sense because he is omnipotent.

>>91954530
>If something was all knowing it wouldn't be able to pick a side

Yes it would. Seeing things from all perspectives doesn't preclude one from taking action.

>>91953996
Bigger than LE FEDORA LOL?

>>91950769
This is completely ignoring the fact that pharoah would've been persuaded if God didn't make him not agree.

>>91952608
>>91954447

This is why the insistence on an omnipotent God is silly. It makes much more sense if you assume that God is limited in power, or is opposed by a being of equal power. Satan in Christianity doesn't really rise to that level, he's always portrayed as inferior in power to God.

It just ends up sounding like a case of "Well my dad can beat up your dad" taken to such an extreme that it no longer makes much sense when you consider the world that we live in. The idea that God must be all-powerful just seems childish. So what if God isn't all-powerful? That wouldn't make him any less good. Quite the opposite, a limited God struggling against great evil and using all of his power to try to help people despite of the hardship would be much more deserving of admiration and worship than an all-powerful God who simply chooses to allow his people to suffer.

>>91954593
Yes it does, since God is literally everything that has ever existed.

>>91954639
The problem then becomes an imperfect being punishing less perfect beings for not following the specific rules the other imperfect being set up and expects everyone to abide by.

>>91954689
>God is literally everything that has ever existed
That means I'm God. I've taken actions before.

>>91954521
>It robs him just as much as saying that humans can have free will but won't do any evil shit
no it doesn't god is all-powerful he can literally do anything in to say otherwise means he's not all-powerful

so there is no situation in which i say god can do something and that robbed him of the ability to do something else

>kind of the point of free will
but god could change that if he wanted to he is all powerful do you not know that mean

>>91954077
Your greentext omitted a fairly salient part of my post, so I have to wonder if you're not cherrypicking on purpose. THIS is my argument:

>Premise 1: Humans are not all powerful, nor are they all knowing
>Premise 2: Human philosophy and morality is defined in the terms of the knowledge they possess
>Premise 3: It is foolish to make judgments based on incomplete knowledge
>Premise 4: God is all-powerful and all-knowing

From Premises 1 and 4, we can infer:
>(Derived) Premise 5: God has power and knowledge that humans do not and cannot possess

Since human concepts of morality are defined in terms of what humans can comprehend (premise 2), and since humans cannot comprehend things at the same level God can (premise 5), and since it is foolish to make judgments about things that are not fully understood (premise 3), we can conclude:

>Conclusion: It is foolish to judge the actions of God.

>>91954709

Sort of like any government or bureaucracy ever?

>>91954709
If anything, God being imperfect would make much more sense. Why else would he need to actually punish people for defying him? A perfect being would be able to command obedience without needing to punish. You punish if you are at risk of losing control, and a perfect being is never at risk of losing control.

And besides, all the rules we follow in human society are ultimately made by imperfect beings, yet they're still important.

>>91954854
Sorta, but they are all humans ruling other humans; thus not expecting worship (outside of some dictatorships). When you put an imperfect god into the mix who expects you to worship them as a perfect god, but they're unworthy of worship and they punish your immortal soul for not considering them worthy, you have a problem.

>>91954852
> God has power and knowledge that humans do not and cannot possess
> Conclusion: It is foolish to judge the actions of God.

God has the power to provide enough knowledge to humans for them to comprehend things well enough to understand why God is commanding a particular thing.

In fact, if he is all-powerful, then it would be exactly as easy for God to explain his actions as not explain his actions.

>>91954877
I know you like the idea of an imperfect god, but that's not the god presented in the Judeo-Christian faith.

>>91955005
It is definitely the God that is presented in a lot of places in the Old Testament. The OT God very much acts like an imperfect being, that has limits to its power and thus is forced to do things that might be unpleasant but are required due to a lack of other options.

>>91954911

>thus not expecting worship (outside of some dictatorships).

"Worship" just traditionally means respect. So judges in the UK, for example, go by "your worship". No dictatorship needed. Humans ruling over humans and forcing them to abide by rules and receive worship. Punishing your immortal soul.

>>91952608
>>91954447
>>91954639
Do you guys want to go into the real apologetics of the matter? Do you really want to do this? Fine.

God is all powerful, all knowing and the creator of everything. He created the universe and literally everything, even the thoughts that you are having, cannot happen without him. He is the embodiment of good because the concept of good (true biblical good, not semantic human good) is based on HIS attributes. Therefore it is not possible for him to act malevolently, because his nature is literally the concept of good. If you interpret his actions as malevolence it is because you lack the ability to see the entire picture or are blinded by sin and temptation.

God's gift to humanity was freedom of choice. The bad things in the world are a result of this. Sin brought death into the world, and sin was brought into the world by humans choosing not to do as god willed.

>>91954852
so god knows best and anything he does is right because he did it

i don't agree that if god murders children it's right but you do

so basically everything i said here>>91954077

>>91950175
Even more fucked up in the bible because it says god hardens Pharaohs heart which is why he never backs down even after all the plagues and shit.

>>91955051
> Therefore it is not possible for him to act malevolently, because his nature is literally the concept of good.

That's just a kid saying "oh yeah, well nothing can get through my force field" in an imaginary contest with another kid. You say that God cannot be evil because he is the definition of good, yet provide nothing to actually support such a claim beyond "because that's how I define good."

>>91955051
>but anon why does God not just make us do what he says and be happy to do it?
Because he doesn't fucking want to.

>but anon why does god punish people for not following his laws if he's so compassionate
His compassion is in not wiping everyone the fuck out for not obeying his simple rules.
>that doesn't seem malevolent to you anon
If we are to believe that the bible is true? Not really, no. We are literally nothing compared to God. This entire existence is the equivalent of making a program that refuses to give consistent results no matter how often you deal with it.

>>91955051
Yeah, but that's circular logic at it's worst.
"God can't be malevolent because God said he's good, there for God can't be malevolent".

>>91953657
There's nothing impossible about reality being far more complex than what we're able to perceive.

>>91955132
>>91955178
Because an all-powerful being who created everything gets to decide what's good or bad. The simple facts of what omnipotence mean make arguing about things like this devolve into circular logic every fucking time because that's what omnipotence IS. Being all powerful means that everything you do is right because if it doesn't you aren't all-powerful.

>>91955149
>His compassion is in not wiping everyone the fuck out for not obeying his simple rules.
What a kind god. He hasn't destroyed me yet. So compassionate. Much love.

>>91955214
Might makes right, huh?

>>91954999
>>91955062
I don't think you understand how formal logic works.

>>91955051
>Therefore it is not possible for him to act malevolently,
so he is not all powerful according to you?

>>91955247
Yes, when you have LITERALLY CREATED EVERYTHING you get to decide what's right.

>>91955051
>God's gift to humanity was freedom of choice.

But god obviously doesn't want people to have freedom of choice, if that were the case why would he punish Adam and Eve and damn all sinners to destruction for not following his rules.

>>91955275
Ah yes, the old Microwaved Burrito problem.

>>91955283
I'm as euphoric as they come, but I think hell and punishment and all that are an allegory.
God doesn't "punish" you, I think the meaning behind the myth is that he respects your choice of living away from him and that life that you leave without his grace is the agony that hell's supposed to be.

>>91955275
That has nothing to do with being all-powerful. The idea of God being malevolent is the same as saying "Can God make a square circle"? It's meaningless mind games about impossible concepts. God is good because the concept is based on his character. Malevolence (evil) defined biblically is those things that are against god. Of course God can't be against himself.

>>91955283
You are given a choice but he wants you to choose him. Having the freedom to choose doesn't mean that every choice has a good outcome, what the fuck are you even talking about?

>>91951531
>Because he was trying to be merciful and he was trying to give Pharaoh a chance to repent.
Except that he specifically and repeatedly prevented the Pharaoh from repenting via straight-up mind control.

God wasn't trying to show mercy. He was using the Pharaoh and Egypt as a punching bag, an opportunity to show off his strength to the Jews and the world. Whenever he thought the Pharaoh would fold, he instead forced him not to, so that he'd have an excuse to escalate and show off more of his power. He's a petty, vainglorious bully.

>>91955276
I can create a child. Doesn't mean I get to abuse it.

Your morals are a little warped because your religion is preventing you from honestly criticizing it.

>>91955212
so god could make perfect humans who still have free will but he chooses not to is what you're saying?or are you saying that they are rules within the universe that god can't break? doesn't that defeat the purpose of being god

>>91952331
>>91951686
>You are like a pathetic goldfish trapped in its bowl, with a mind so primitive that it cannot even begin to comprehend the complexities of the mind of the potentially existing higher being, because it is impossible for your mind to go beyond patterns and beliefs established by your own kind. Why do you try to measure the mind of a more developed being by your own inferior standards?
Ia ia f'thagn!

>>91955410
>Le mind control theory

Boring, read up on your bible and interpretations rather than spouting memes

>>91955214
> Because an all-powerful being who created everything gets to decide what's good or bad.
Okay, so you're basing this on a factual claim, namely the claim that the Biblical God created the universe. In which case, evidence please.

>>91955427
You also aren't omnipotent or omniscient, and you haven't created the child the way God created the universe, and you have contemporaries who have the same level of knowledge and power as you who can tell you what to do, so that comparison is meaningless.

File: Jupiter_Smyrna_Louvre_Ma13.jpg (2MB, 1594x3661px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1594x3661px

>>91950175

The Judeo-Christian God is a totally evil, sadistic and petty asshole, so this is no surprise. He made people just to have something to torture.

The things is people say, "Oh, Judeo-Christian God isn't an evil asshole" when he obviously is. That's why the earlier gods were way better.

Zeus was a sadistic evil asshole and the Greeks and Romans fucking knew it and were honest about it. When horrible shit happened to innocent little children and shit they didn't ask, "How the fuck could this happen?!?" they would say, "It happened because the gods are fucking horrible sadistic monsters who hurt people good or evil for no reason just because they're fucking bored and drunk." Way more realistic.

These new trendy ripoff gods are shit and make no sense. When people say it makes no sense it's because they bastardized the original characters.

Also that movie was preddy gud for not being Disney. Also Disney Zeus was too damn nice; not nearly enough raping to be in character.

Are you saying this was Dreamworks' fault somehow?