I might sound like a normie or so but will something else

It's not even the best Watchmen title.

Sonichu:The Wreckorning written by Chris Chan and drawn by Andrew Dobson

>>91937006
Chris Chan told me to shut up once that was fun.

Probably, nothing remains the best forever.

Someone, sometime, somewhere will come and do something better.

Cerebus

Flex Mentallo

Love & Rockets

Give Me Liberty

>>91936974
a lot of things already have

>>91936974
Depends, but in terms of overall stuffings it's comic book literature.

Paneling, colouring, storytelling, world building, importance to the genre.

It can be beaten easily, but as a package it'll stay at the top for a very, very long time desu.

everything ever

>>91937173
This.

Manga

>>91937099
Shoo, Alan Moore, shoo.

>>91936974
Bone

imagine saying that about any other piece of media (books, movies, etc)

many things come along that you might like better for any number of reasons but classics remain classics forever, mostly due to their place in time

unpopular opinion time:
The movie was better than the comic. The squid barely makes sense even with all the foreshadowing and explanation laid down in the comic. I really just comes off as villain builds a moon-laser to hold the world's capitals hostage kind of plan.
The movie wrapped up its lose ends better and making Dr. Manhattan take the fall made it all the more tragic feeling. Giant squid monster doesnt feel tragic. it just feels corny.

the movie isnt perfect (hallellujah still gives me nightmares of cringe), but the story was better packaged and wrapped up than the comic.

>>91936974

Plenty has. In hindisght, it's one of those monoliths that have become classics simply because there was nothing better at that time. It's like Verne, it's become a classic because the stuff people wrote at the time was shit, not because it's amazing lit.

>>91937894
I disagree but you are welcome to your dumb opinion

>>91937902
>there was nothing better at the time
>the stuff people wrote at the time was shit
how to spot a casual who hasn't read anything published before 2000 besides Watchmen and TDKR

>>91937958

>someone who doesn't like my dust bunnies covered collection of crap
> imply time

nice try bro, but you're out of your league.

>>91937970
you're damn right it's
>imply time

>Miller Daredevil, including Born Again
>Moore's own Swamp Thing
>Cerebus still going
>Simonson Thor
>L'Incal
>Love and Rockets
>O'Neil Question
>Morrison Animal Man
>Marvelman/Miracleman
>Maus
>For the Man Who Has Everything
the 80s were awash with some of the best comics of all time, Watchmen was one of many.

>>91938054
This. the 80s were a pretty cool time to enjoy comics. And then in 92 you had death of superman to round it out like a mint after a nice meal.

>>91938193
>Death of Superman
more like the waiter brought out a big pile of shit and told you it was chocolate ice cream

>>91937894

I completely agree with this statement. I honestly couldn't have wrote it better myself.

Also lol'd at moon laser.

>>91936974
The darker tone of the comics really set it apart from anything else out there. It changed the face of comics forever

From Hell by Alan Moore and Eddie Campbell.

>>91938246
so when people say this do they think comics were just all Silver Age goofiness right up until Watchmen then took a hard right into 90s edge, or is there something else going on there

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>>91936974

>>91938292
Pretty much yeah. 90s didn't need the watchmen to be edge though. Their boomer parents did that for them

In cape comics, there's not a lot that's on it's level. But in the entire medium? No.

>>91937894
Goddamnit, people are still criticizing the squid as silly.

It's supposed to be corny and silly. It's a throwback to the silver age madness of stupid aliens and ridiculous super-villain schemes (like making a time machine with a length of copper wire, juice boxes and toilet paper rolls). If you can be sure of one thing about Alan Moore is that he is hugely fond of the unapologetic crazy that the silver age comics had in every issue.

He also enjoys immensely playing around and deconstructing it.

>>91936974
It will never stop amazing me how people hold Watchmen up to such a high standard despite Moore's superior work on Swamp Thing and MiracleMan. MiracleMan is, in my opinion, a better deconstruction of the super hero cliche.

>>91938202

I actually felt like it was this hugely advertised dessert, promising 20 different kinds of sumptuous chocolate merged into one.

Then after the first spoonful, you realized that under all that cheap chocolate syrup there was only a regular sponge cake, with raisins.

At least you hoped they were raisins.

>>91938054
Three on that list are Moore's work.

>>91940143
That's bound to happen when you're the best in the medium.

What did Watchmen do wrong?
What did it do right?

>>91940174
>What did Watchmen do wrong?

Dr Manhattan's penis.

>What did it do right?

Dr Manhattan's penis.

>>91940098
This shit right here.

Watchmen was what got teenaged me into silver age stuff.

>>91936974
DC already topped it with Enemy Ace: War Idyll, even before that mind, Watchmen couldn't even hope to compare to works like Lone Sloane.
Watchmen is very good, but there a lot of better stuff out there if you actually go looking for it.

>>91937970
He's right, you have garbage taste

>>91937113
yes

Flex Mentallo and Pax Americana are both better than Watchmen

>>91936974
Rebirth has already topped it.

>>91938364
I finished it just yesterday with Overtune. Not as great as Watchmen though.
>>91938265
Bought from the used book store. Haven't read it yet.
>>91937823
Read it in color. Great series but no Watchmen.
>>91937173
I own some best of floppie (is that what single comics are called) called best of 10 years or so. That's a good place to start?
>>91937256
That just got a rerelease right? I don't like Miller much from what I read (Dark Knight 1,Year One and Wolverine)
>>91937113
Never heard of it. Can't be as bad as the Marvelman one shot he did (AWFUL)
>>91937099
Own the first remastered phone book and a few random floppies around that point with a 3D book as well. Haven't read it yet in case I enjoy it since they are hard to find imo.
>>91941438
;)

>>91941823
>(is that what single comics are called)
When they're floppy, but you can also just call them issues or comics.

>>91936974
>I might sound like a normie
normies dont read comic books

>>91941871
This is the only comic they might read and then go on about how amazing "graphic novels" are and then don't read another one.

>>91941823
I dunno what's in the best of book thing you have but Love and Rockets is pretty easy to jump into. If you want to start at the beginning though there's two books, Maggie the Mechanic and Heartbreak Soup to start out with.

>>91936974
Eh. It's not even Moore's best. I'd put these above it:

>From Hell
>Swamp Thing
>Miracleman
>Promethea

Outside of that, you could make more than a case for:

>Cerebus
>Sandman
>Hellboy

It's a REALLY fucking good book, though. And as a single package 12 issues I can't think of anything better: all of these I just posted are longer series.

>>91942911
oh yeah, forgot to say, this is only in the context of American comics

there's a shit ton of great stuff in Europe or Asia

>>91942911
From Hell is 11 issues, though some of them longer than normal ones.

>>91936974
Plenty of things, most recently Omega Men

>>91941871
yes they do
cape films opened the door for that

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>>91936974

>>91942911
The only thing Moore wrote at that level is From Hell. Swamp Thing and Miracleman have a lot of flaws and weak parts. I'd argue Miracleman is a huge drop from Watchmen.

>>91937894
>the movie was better than the comic

talk about garbage fucking opinion. It's one thing to like the Dr Manhattan better than the Squid, still retarded but whatever, but the movie is straight up trash with wooden acting, terrible pacing, shitty music choices, and an ugly color scheme. It was just atrocious on every level.

>>91944120
>I'd argue Miracleman is a huge drop from Watchmen
Miracleman is older than Watchmen, retard. And even with its flaws Miracleman is way better than Watchmen

>>91937894
I might even agree about the change of ending, but the movie was way worse because of plenty of other reasons

>>91940143
and?

>>91944575
>Miracleman is older than Watchmen
And?
>Miracleman is way better than Watchmen
Explain? Watchmen is better in it's structure, fleshing out the characters and getting into their heads, motives and backgrounds. It also goes a lot into details in it's deconstruction.

>>91936974
tons of manga have.

Lone Wolf and Cub
Nausicaa
PunPun and nijigahara holograph
Akira
Takemitsu Zamura and No.5
The World is Mine
Phoenix
Ashita no Joe

in terms of western comics

than Shade the Changing Man
Hellboy
Blueberry
Asterios Polyp
and a number of Moore comics are better.

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>>91936974
In hearth, relevance and good artskill, nothing will really top this.
But on par is Maus.

And i think Earth X, Kingdom Come and Marvels are good comic mytholigy series. And yes i like things Alex Ross worked on.
Maybe Sin City, Hellboy, Don Rosas Scrooge McDuck are near Watchmen too.

>>91936974
It didn't even top Squadron Supreme

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>>91945919

Best capeshit alongside All Star Superman for sure. Outside of capes, it's still great, but nowhere near the best.

>>91945979
Pleb detected

>>91937894
>Giant squid monster doesnt feel tragic. it just feels corny.
THATS THE FUCKING POINT WATCHMEN ISN'T SUPPOSED TO BE COOL SLOW MOTION KARATE AND SOFTCORE PORN SYNDER GAWD

Universally? Probably not. But not because it was so good, but because it changed everything, for better or for worse. Nothing is ever going to mean as much to so many people as Watchmen was to it's target audience.

>>91937513
Berserk

>>91940126
>MiracleMan is, in my opinion, a better deconstruction of the super hero cliche.

it is but that's one of the reasons i don't like it as much as some of his other work deconstruction are not really all that interesting to me miracle man was incredibly well-written and had some really great art but nothing about it characters its plot or its setting was really interesting to me it just seems so middle of the road

>>91945749
>tons of manga have
how dare you not put Berserk on here

>>91936974
I thought Sandman holds the title of best comic.

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>>91950589
I immediately ignore all "top 10" lists on principle. Trying to hold up any singular work as "best" or "top" is an inherently stupid idea. All it does is remove all nuance and drag discourse down to a moron's level. Do yourselves a favor and don't take part in these conversations.

>>91950523
Berserk from golden age-conviction sure, but now I don't know.

>tfw I love Watchmen, but my favorite issue is the one where Dr. Manhattan goes over his life and no one talks about that one.
it hurts

>>91951986
That's probably the most recognized and loved chapter in the comic anon. That and Rorschach's flashback chapter are everyone's favorites.

Sandman may be better than Watchmen, but Alan Moore is just so much cooler than Neil Gaiman.

>>91952202
well one has successfully so far managed a relationship with two women at the same time and the other's wife left him for his mistress

>>91952202
>Sandman
Sandman isn't a deconstruction of super heroes.

>>91951986
Dude, that is absolutely THE moment for me.
It's so surreal yet sensible.

>>91937045
I bet a lot of people have told you to shut up

>>91952226
lol

>>91937894
I liked nite owl trying to stop manhattan from killing rorsach

>>91940098
>It's supposed to be corny and silly.
Then he fucked up and ruined the tone of what otherwise was a very serious and enjoyable story merely so he can feel nostalgic about comics he read as a kid.
Moore isnt a god, he can make mistakes. The squid was a mistake, and pretending that the author liking these things is enough to include them in the story is just a dumb argument

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>>91937894
Dr Manhattan taking the fall is retarded. First off, all the nations would just send nukes flying at the US the moment they were bombed. The idea of Russia teaming up with the US and feeling sorry for them when they "created" Dr Manhattan is a laughable idea. The squid is important because we needed an outside threat, and no matter what the world could do jackshit against Dr Manhattan. Veidt is an uber idealist and he doesn't just want people to cow in fear and lord over them like a dictator. He values the camaraderie the nations would have over uniting over a foreign threat, and don't give me that they're hopeless against an alien threat either. Yeah they would get destroyed but they at least have some chances against one, whereas against Dr Manhattan their chances of survival are literally zero.

>>91952659
>Yeah they would get destroyed but they at least have some chances against one, whereas against Dr Manhattan their chances of survival are literally zero.
This.
>>91937894
Among other things, the movie screwed up a crucially important scene when Rorschach goes after the kidnapper. Him straight up butchering the guy misses a moment that in the comic defined Rorschach's character and his sense of justice. And they changed it for no good reason, too, not even the kind of "good reason" they had for nixing the Squid.

>>91952994
Are you me? I have the same gripe towards Rorschach's execution of the guy. In the comic his murder was premeditated and first degree murder not to mention it was excessively brutal and saidistic. In the movie having the killer "confess", almost feels like Snyder is trying to sublty have us side with Rorschach and go all FUCK YEAH KILL THAT RAPIST SCUM. It also turns the murder from first degree into third degree, crime of passion if you will. Just subtle shit like this really bothers me, I don't care if it seems autistic to nitpick

>>91937894
I don't agree that the movie was better than the comic overall, but I do agree blaming Dr. Manhattan was better than aliens.

Also Hallelujah was the best song choice. It was about Biblical heroes being brought low and robbed of their power by human choices.

>>91952659
>The idea of Russia teaming up with the US and feeling sorry for them when they "created" Dr Manhattan is a laughable idea.
Not much more laughable than someone genetically engineering a physic squid-monster to attack a city in order to terrify the worlds' nations into mutual cooperation. The fact that it was literally psychic just makes it even more silly and tone-deaf of a choice.
It would not be hard at all to trace the bio-engineering tech and experts necessary to create the squid, and Russia as you point out has every reason to be suspect of America. Given that fact, your point stands just as strongly against the squid as it would against the movie's use of Dr Manhattan.

I just think Moore wrote himself into a corner and the squid was his lazy asspull to get out of it

>>91952523
You're projecting your own notions as to what a serious superhero story should be(probably inspired by other works that where themselves inspired by Watchmen, among other things) onto what you think Watchmen should've been. Which is turning a lot of prior notions and tropes from superhero comics on its ear. The Squid as an alien invader expy is just as crucial as the main cast themselves being expys of popular hero archetypes is.

Though, maybe in a meta way the movie version worked better for its era, in which such a thing wasn't really seen in superhero comics. In a postAvengers/GOTG/etc era, though, arguing against the Squid is silly. The argument that audiences couldn't buy a squid goes out the window when they accept a giant purple man and a talking raccoon in superhero movies.

>>91954756
>literally psychic

nope

>>91954985
it was tho

>>91936974
It was already surpassed by manga that came before it and by comics that came after.

>>91937113
>>91941069
This.

In general Morrison > Moore.

>>91954756
>Not much more laughable than someone genetically engineering a physic squid-monster to attack a city in order to terrify the worlds' nations into mutual cooperation. The fact that it was literally psychic just makes it even more silly and tone-deaf of a choice.

Only because you chose to overlook the implication of genetic engineering and think Moore was making a universe where superpowers where limited to one being(which is never flat out stated. ). It works like a magic trick, the elements are brought up, then taken out of view, until the reveal. Its part of why Watchmen gets better with rereads while the movie is a one-and-done deal.

>>91954815
The problem isnt the squid itself, its that the squid even with all the foreshadowing and explanations, still feels out of place. This was not a setting that we as the audience were supposed to expect genetic hybrid monsters.
Up until that point, the comic read more like a noir detective story told from Rorschach. The drama and action was all street-level with occasional Dr Manhattan intermissions.

It felt a bit like someone decided to include a mage in a sci-fi story. It stuck out and seemed weird given all we knew about the setting by that point.

>>91954756
You didn't get it.

Top it how? I assume you don't mean top it as a graphic novel or top it as a Moore work (both already covered). But top it as a capeshit work, that's a good question...

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>>91955345
>doesnt argue a point, just calls people stupid.
well that convinced me, boy was I silly!

>>91955381
I didn't insult you, I just said you didn't get it, I'll not help you to get it, I'll just point it out, it's up to you if you'll act on it or not.

The fact that you're so defensive makes me think other people have noticed that you didn't get it and have pointed it out too.

>>91937113
>>91941069
>>91955225
The memepinion trifecta. "Pax > Watchmen" is a particularly egregious one.

>>91955453
>memepenion
Imbecile

Baby's first """non"""-graphic novel isn't as great as you think.

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Yes, but not for another decade or so.

Watchmen is a comic that comes during the late point of the cape tradition. It's just far enough from the gold and silver ages that it can be objective, but not so far that it ends up only cheaply nostolgic and satiric. The cape tradition also built up enough tropes for it to employ to be eloquent.

I'm going to guess we'll see something like Watchmen, but it'll be a summation of the tradition of alt-comics, which are staring to run down in a similar way.

>>91955316
And thats exactly why it works. You're thinking of it as a Nolan Batman world, because so many superhero stories later Watchmen have tried to do just that; superheroes in the "real world". But Moore never intended that, he did superheroes with real lives, but in a still fictional world(which, ironically, diverted more from the real world than a lot of contemporary superhero comics). The Squid is no less unplausible than Dr. Manhattan(both are ridiculous impossibilities), but you're eased into Manhattan while the Squid(intentionally) takes you back.

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>>91937894
I can totally see where you're coming from and in some ways I feel the same.
However I think the disaster being a squid is right because it is ridiculous. Ozy claims to not be apart of the stereotypical superhero/supervillian archetype, he wants very badly to do something grand that will make the world a better place.
He wants change very badly but along the way he falls into the exact sort of behaviour he was trying to do away with.

His plan was corny and bizarre and, in the long run, really impracticable. It's a temporary victory at best, all in another in a cycle of atrocities commuted to prevent atrocities by people who thought they could be heroes.

A big blue explosion is clean, the result of Ozymandias's plan is messy and undignified. In the comic the people didn't get a quick death, they were mutilated by the grotesque brainchild of a man in tights.

Our politics, wars and personal struggles are tragic. But tragedy is also inherently silly and that's kind of sad.
Superheroes are very silly but we still love them and we want them to be real very badly and because of that all sorts of terrible things happen.

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>>91937894
I agree about Manhattan vs Squid. Manhattan movie version was better.

Owlman sperging out and punching/adlibbing after Ozzy's win was retarded, however.

>>91954815
>You're projecting your own notions as to what a serious superhero story should be.
What everyone who's ever commented about Watchmen seems to miss. It isn't intended to be the bible. It's intended to be a comic, albeit an ambitious and "heavy" one. But at the end of the day Alan knew this is a comic book.

When I get around to writing my comic

Neil Gay man

>>91956107
This.

You and I can do it anon. We can be the future we desire.

>>91955780
>Owlman sperging out and punching/adlibbing after Ozzy's win was retarded, however.
agreed. There was no need for that, it was just Snyder adding his preferred answer to the moral question Watchmen asks rather than leaving it open ended like the comic.

>>91956790
Ozy would never let Nite Owl lay a finger on him anyway. That was way out of character for Ozy. And it's like you said just a way for Snyder take out his revenge fantasy on someone he deemed was the villain. Snyder is a manchild.

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>>91956107
Do eeet

>>91954756
Why was being psychic tone deaf? Psychics existed in the watchmen verse. It wasn't an asspull by any stretch. Everyone was too terrified of an alien invasion to start pointing fingers, and psychics don't just exist in America. How would traching the tech trace back to Veidt? It's not at all the same thing. The Russians would be pissed at America for Dr Manhattan because they've been nuked, and Dr M was used as a symbol of terror for America and was used to strong arm other countries to back down. Him going rogue falls solely on America.

>>91956824
>Snyder is a manchild.
A truer statement has never been made. Especially with his later movies. 300 and Watchmen were the high points of his career, and ever since then movie producers seem to think Synder needs to have creative control to be a success when the exact opposite seems to be true.

>>91956919
It was an asspull because neither the squid nor the Dr Manhattan ending addresses the problem that Russia has zero reason not to immediately launch nukes or at least prep for war after getting attacked. And has every reason in the world to be suspicious of America and refuse to cooperate until a complete investigation of the attacks is concluded.

Thats why its an asspull, Moore made it damn clear that in the setting there was almost zero trust left between America and Russia, but somehow a major-league attack against Russian cities (and others, but Russia wont care about the others will they?) did not IMMEDIATELY spark some kind of skirmish between the military powers.

>>91957016
Russia wasn't attacked in the squid ending

>>91957016
You're assuming that Russia is into some Alex Jones type conspiracy shit that THE ALIEN SQUID WAS AN INSIDE JOB type shit. Even if they were weary or suspicious of an alien threat they'd have zero reasons to nuke America, the haven't been attacked.

Russia was never attacked in the comic m8. The squid only devastated New York. Unless you're referring to Dr Manhattan which in that case I agree.

>>91957122
You're right, I mangled two paragraphs together instead of just editing them properly.
In the comic, Russia had zero reason to think that more attacks were coming or to even have any sympathy for America having one city attacked. There is minimal motivating factors for Russia to just...let go of everything that had happened so far because an American city suffered a major tragedy.
In the movie, Russia has zero reason to believe that Dr Manhattan is ever truly outside of American control. Even a crazy person can still be a patriot. But at least the multi-national level of the tragedy makes some sense in why Russia/America would set some differences aside. But as the journal arriving in the newspaper office shows, the secret wont stay hidden forever.

neither ending is perfect, but between the two the movie ending seems to make a little bit more sense. Maybe I just have a fondness for seeing heros struggle with keeping their feet on the ground mentally and not slowly losing touch or going crazy, especially when its the only one in the whole world.

>>91957387
>Russia had zero reason to think that more attacks were coming
except for the global psychic attack that made everyone scared of a future alien attack

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>>91936974
What's our metric OP? I fully recognize the technical merit and superior narrative hoodo of Watchmen, but Moore isn't even in the same universe as the King when it cmes to making me smile and dream.

America

>>91957460
where in the comics are we lead to believe that any government actually hires or makes use of psychics. or even believes in psychics at all?

>>91957711
EVERYONE was affected by the psychic backlash, not just psychics

I don't really know

Watchmen really is a graphic novel, there is alot of text in its comic format. I can't even name another one that does it the same way Watchmen did. Sandman, if you put it all in an omnibus, maybe, but that's several stand alone stories.

>>91942911
I'm gonna have to trust this anon

>>91957737
Doesnt make it sound any less like an asspull to have suddenly everyone on earth become aware of a psychic threat as a means of concluding the story without nuclear war.

Above me, this awful board, it screams like an abattoir full of retarded children. /co/.

>>91957769
Aside from the fact that it isn't a graphic novel. These were issues. Just like TDKR isn't a graphic novel.

That's easily the biggest misnomer in all of media. And why? Somebody know's why. Up there. Somebody knows.

>>91958290
it's a marketing gimmick

>>91958290
>>91957769
what precisely is the difference between a graphic novel and a comic? Length? being one cohesive story?

>>91958410
whether you're ashamed of calling it a comic or not

>>91936974
But Watchmen is just one long statement by Moore about how terrible superheroes are with pretty art. I don't see how you can "top" it.

>>91958410
>>91958432
No.

One is a novel, a single book, the other is a series of books released in a serial format.

>>91956888
Check'd and I've got alot of tv to catch up on, so ...

>>91958678
kek

Guess even though you and I can do it anon. I'll have to be the future we desire.

>>91958742
Unless yours will be bountiful with memes I sincerely doubt it.

>>91958901
It's going to be a deconstruction of memes. It will usher in an era of grim dark memes.

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>>91958507
Autism

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>>91959569

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>>91959466
>>91959524
>>91959569
>>91959627

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>>91937894
I concur, I get what Moore was going for but it was fucking dumb. It looking like Manhattan did it gives more incentive for him to fuck off to space.

>>91952523
You clearly haven't read watchmen if you weren't in hysterics literally every time rorschach spoke.

So it's pretty much agreed this is the pinnacle of cape comics?

Thank Zack Snyder, for ruining any possible conversation about Watchmen by making your shitty fucking movie.

>>91937894
>I really just comes off as villain builds a moon-laser to hold the world's capitals hostage kind of plan.

YES

Because Ozymandias despite being the "world's smartest man" couldn't come up with anything better than a typical Silver Age comic book villain plot. His plan was bad and it will fail, that's the point. Just look at his goddamn namesake, he's set up for failure.

Those quotes at the end of issues aren't window dressing, they're all tied into the story.

>>91958169
You didn't read the comic, did you? It makes it very clear that the squid attack was 2-part, the fist is the squid, the second a psychic wave throughout the world that would make people scared of another attack for years. And before you say again thst this sounds like an asspull and silly, remember that this was discovered by a team of heroes in a comic book. Watchmen, for all it's seriousness and depth, never forgets (and never lets the reader forget) thst it is a comic book about men in tights saving the world. It's silly.

I unironically believe that 52 is a perfect narrative. The intersection of plotlines, use of foreshadowing, attention to detail, and general pacing of the series is fantastic and I would have to actively take a few minutes of serious thought before I could come up with a criticism towards it, even then I'm sure it would be mostly superficial.

I think it's a better comic book than Watchmen but the two are pretty difficult to compare.

>>91965905
>I think it's a better comic book than Watchmen
I disagree solely on the grounds that 52 has awful art and its just a book for writers.

>>91966000
That's an opinion you're entitled to have. I didn't notice anything especially offensive about the art and there were definitely some splash pages and scenes that stuck with me but overall I think I'd consider the art unremarkable.

With that said, I'd consider the art in Watchmen unremarkable as well. It had some absolutely fantastic uses of panel layouts and technical formatting, but the actual art was basically the same as any other comic.

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>>91966118
>With that said, I'd consider the art in Watchmen unremarkable as well. It had some absolutely fantastic uses of panel layouts and technical formatting, but the actual art was basically the same as any other comic.
>"""""people"""""" like this exist

>>91966170
Please direct me to some pages that show incredible, dynamic art in Watchmen. Literally the only page I can think of that comes close is the squid being deployed. In general it feels somewhat static and simple. That's not to call it bad, but the actual technical merits of the art will never be the first thing people talk about when they praise Watchmen.

>>91966441
literally all of them, you unironic plebeian. Watchmen is one of the pinnacles of the medium in large part due to the art

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>>91966535
You're kidding right? I just googled 'watchmen page' and took the first five results that weren't duplicates. Here's the first, nothing remarkable stands out to me.

>>91966441
>the actual technical merits of the art will never be the first thing people talk about when they praise Watchmen.

Because most people approach comics at books with pictures, if they mention art it's in passing. Going all the way back to when journalists interviewed Stan Lee and never saw Ditko or Kirby artists are seen by the literary minded readers as just the people bringing scripts to life

Declan Shalvey recently wrote a essay about the problem

https://imagecomics.com/features/declan-shalvey-exploring-the-virtues-of-artcred-essay

>Many comics reviewers lack the vocabulary to speak about art in a critical way, and instead bury the art in a single paragraph with rote commentary. The proliferation of double-shipping books at Marvel and DC, books that rotate art teams while keeping the writer consistent, train the reader to see the artist as secondary to the process.

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>>91966750
The second; Gibbons makes a reasonable figure but this entire page is just people standing still and talking. Unremarkable.

>>91966750
well congratulations you picked one of the best and most dynamic pages in the comic to prove that it's unremarkable

>>91966806
> just people standing still and talking.
> Unremarkable.

> It’s also very difficult to draw a sleeping body or someone who has been abandoned, because in most comics it’s always action that is being studied. It’s much easier to draw people fighting — that’s why Americans nearly always draw superheroes. It’s much more difficult to draw people that are talking, because that’s a series of very small movements — small, yet with real significance.
Moebius

>>91936974

Just read more comics, this came out quite a while back, I mean when I first read it, it was already a bit dated as far as social commentary and satire go and that was well over a decade ago.

I mean it's a solid read and I'd highly recommend it to anyone, but it's like the Eva of comics, it's solid gold all the way to the end then it's a bizarre gimmick you can either remember once making sense or pretend you understand from reading history books, or warp into your own shit, but it's basically aged very badly into some wacky bullshit and it's been memed to death.

>>91966970
it was always meant to be wacky bullshit, my dude

>>91966970
>it was already a bit dated
Yeah it's deeply attached to the Cold War attitude, it's weird that people accuse Dark Knight Returns of being dated but not Watchmen.

I hate the way some people have turned their backs on Miller's work because of what they think his politics are.

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>>91966806
recoloring issues aside; the change in panels 3 and 4 is really minimal. You can praise the subtlety of the difference if you'd like, but it's pretty standard fare (Bendis somehow has a lot of these types of panels in his works). Rorschach pushing Moloch up against the fridge also seems more like a tableau than a sudden movement. I'm still not seeing anything to set this art apart from any of the [good] cape comic art of the time.
>>91966774
That may very well be the case, but it wasn't my point. Some comics have done absolutely incredible things with their interior art. Batwoman is a recent example but going as far back as Jack Kirby or even shit like Dave Mckean that isn't necessarily 'good' is distinctive, unique, and can be instantly recognized as standing out from the 'standard house style'. Gibbons' work here is (with a handful of exceptions) nothing special and though technically fine, lacks any kind of distinctive style or excellence to make it a talking point of the book.

Again, the layout of panels and the 'meta textual' stuff (Manhattan speaking across pages) is really really cool stuff, but it's not by virtue of the actual art itself so much as it is the plotting/storyboarding of the art.

>>91966750
You're kidding right?

Completely devoid of any self-awareness.

>>91967075
the people who turn their backs on Miller are people who have only read TDKR and maybe Year One, then read about TDKSA, ASBAR, and Holy Terror online

>>91967167
I was battling for miller ealier today on here. Dude's been getting Stan Lee levels of hate its actually fucking despicable.

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>>91966957
I think you missed the point. Moebius is [presumably] talking about drawing people having a sustained conversation. A 'my dinner with Andre' type of thing. The page in question doesn't do that, it just has static images of people more or less looking at one another with speech bubbles. Or are newspaper 'talking head' comics considered the pinnacle of comic book art now?
>>91967097
Here we have page 4. Nite Owl looks basically identical to Peter Parker in early-mid 90s Spider-Man books here.

>>91967445
>implying TDKR doesn't have some of the best sequential art in the medium

>>91967445
You're measurement of good art is if it's stylized or dynamic, watchmen has what 3 fight scenes that last a page each? It's not a dynamic action story, it's mostly people have conversations or thinking to themselves.

Little things like facial expression and body language go a long way into that

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>>91967445
And finally 5. I really do like the use of colour, shadow and perspective here and would absolutely consider this a well drawn page (panels 6 and 9 not so much). I still am highly skeptical you couldn't find something this good in your average Neal Adams Batman comic though.

Ultimately that's my point; nothing that Gibbons was doing in Watchmen wasn't already being done just as well by other artists in the industry.
>>91967123
Nothing on this page is anything that makes me think "Only Watchmen would have this in it". Miller and Jansen were doing similar visuals to capture the idea of a zoom out in their Daredevil runs. I have never claimed the art in Watchmen was bad, but very very little about it is in any way noteworthy or exceptional compared to the rest of the industry at the time.

Instead of vague suggestions of fault or insults, why not actually back up your claims with your thoughts? Saying "Oh man you are totally wrong" and not explaining why isn't productive to discourse.

>>91967680
While there are very few scenes that could be described as fight scenes, there are still a number of scenes that involve dynamic movement (off the top of my head there's the sequence with Rorschach in the jail, the Vietnam segments, Manhattan's origin, Nite Owl's death, and the finale). I understand that Watchmen is not an action comic and I'm not expecting it to have twelve page coreographed fight scenes, but the art that is included feels like the same art that had been in comics for years.
>little things like facial expression and body language go a long way into that.
Sure. but look at (>>91966806); Manhattan's pose in panel 2 is downright goofy and there's no real depth or complexity to any of the facial expressions (possibly excepting the first panel).

Similarly, in (>>91967097) you get a really great expression of wide eyed fear in the first panel then nothing really interesting at all. The change in panel 3 to 4 is negligible and honestly, panel 5 looks more like he's laughing than anything else.

Rorschach pushing him up against the fridge is also more of a tableau than a snapshot of movement. He's too well balanced and lacks any kind of forward momentum with his lunge.

Again, the art is serviceable and does not in any way detract from the story (and the visual elements of the comic book medium obviously add a lot to the story that you wouldn't get from a film or novelization) but until I start seeing some better arguments for why the art is exceptional, it's really just striking me as middle of the road comic book art for the majority of the book.

>>91937173

Honestly, the underground comics that Alan Moore loved and was influenced by in the 80s are better than Alan Moore himself.

Love and Rockets
American Splendor
Luther Akrwright
Omaha the Cat Dancer

>>91937099
Lol.

>>91937256
close to it but no.

Rebirth if they write it right and stick the landing

>>91967075
I never got why a political event is meant to make something dated. Old political classics aren't called as dated. It's just that millennials are too fucking lazy to read something of the past generation and need everything to pander to them. If you find an important event like the cold war to be dated, you should consider ending yourself.

>>91967807
You're talking as if Neal Adams was an average artist in his time.

>>91945636
When people say Miracleman is better, they are -really- just saying Miracleman is great. Watchmen is better in almost every way. Miracleman, while incredible, isn't as well developed as Watchmen in the same with LoEG is overly developed. WM finds the perfect middle ground, while remaining in his prime.

>>91967167
>>91967290

Miller is a foremost genius of Super Hero comic books, an equal to Moore. The most underrated writer-artist of all time.

>>91968211
Well, y'know, you're like 12 and Watchmen appeals to adults. Cool criticism tho.

storytime it

>>91968211
Good points anon

The fact that nobody can reply to you with anything except ad hominems means you're onto something.

>>91973221
It honestly pisses me off. The faggot blog brigade always sucks the penis of Watchmen And whatever their favorite flavor of Morrison is. While almost demonizing Frank. It's so indicative of people not being able to separate the artist from the art. Anybody who says they hate Frank Miller doesn't just have shit taste, they have meme taste. And a severe case of it.

It's like saying Steve Jobs wasn't a visionary because he was a terrible father.

>Inb4 someone tries to debate steve job's technical prowess and actual impact on the success he saw.

>>91938054
Animal Man is immensely overrated. You read it recently? Coyote Gospel reads like a high schooler who just started considering "meta" concepts. Swamp Thing is great but not as holistically great and well structured as Watchmen is. Same with Marvelman, other than the pages of destruction drawn by Stephen Bisette. For the Man Who Has Everything is just a great Superman story, not a great story in general. It doesn't hold water outside of the ghetto of comics, which Watchmen does.

Love and Rockets is GOAT tier though. Cerebus is complicated by the author's mental breakdown.