http://www.cbr.com/retailer-reactio n-secret-empire-hydra-ta

>>91874450
Several retailers were hesitant to talk about the subject of “Secret Empire” and the Hydra takeover, with one responding simply, “This topic is a little toxic.” Other retailers, such as LeBlanc, are avoiding promoting the series and the takeover initiative, saying it goes against the sense of inclusivity they’ve worked to build in their store. Greg Gage says Utah’s Black Cat Comics won’t be taking part, noting, “There’s a rise of anti-Semitic behavior in this world right now. The last thing I want to do is force my queer, Jewish employee to wear a Hail Hydra shirt.”

There seems to be some misconception about what the Hydra takeover is, and how Marvel are coordinating with retailers. Everyone I spoke to said that they haven’t heard from Marvel directly about the marketing initiative, but there are promotional items that have been available to them for several months. LeBlanc raised that point that Marvel may have had more success with the initiative if it focused on the superhero resistance as opposed to asking stores to appear to be collaborating with the villainous organization. “These would have addressed the adverse feelings and framed their narrative as a confrontation of harmful ideas, instead of an embrace, which would have gone a long way against appearing as though they are Nazi sympathizers.”

>>91874454
Many of the retailers who responded to me worry that being associated with promoting “Secret Empire” could cost them customers. Jon Chandler of Alabama’s ShoNuff Comics told me that out of two hundred customers with pull lists, only one of them orders “Captain America: Steve Rogers,” a title the store only orders six copies of total for each issue.

Gareth Hoskins of Virginia’s Victory Comics said his customers’ dissatisfaction with Marvel and “Secret Empire” began with the previous Marvel Comics summer event. “With ‘Civil War II,’ we began bleeding Marvel subscribers, because that event was a hot mess. Now we have ‘Secret Empire,’ and our customers are verbally angry with Marvel.” He noted that the general feeling in his store is that customers want it to hurry up and finish so they can enjoy Captain America comics again, a statement echoed by other retailers I spoke with.

Not every retailer is against “Secret Empire,” however; a number are openly excited to be taking part in the takeover event, as Chris Proulx of Double Midnight Comics, New Hampshire told me. “When Marvel put this opportunity out there, we decided to play along. It was something different that they hadn’t done for other events. We felt it was a way for us to participate in the overall event!” He did also note that while his customers are a bit wary of the event, his staff have worked to assuage them of their concerns, and he is confident Marvel would never do anything to tarnish Captain America’s legacy.

>>91874479
A number of retailers were generally apathetic, pointing out that Marvel’s attempt to include them in the takeover has been somewhat half-hearted and many of their customers just aren’t enthused about the story one way or the other. Zach Power of Iowa’s Daydreams Comics noted “We’ve never had much luck getting any interest from clientele in any companies various initiatives/parties/etc, so I tend to not pay them much attention.” while Kyle McCormick of Wyoming’s Gryphon Games & Comics won’t be participating because “our guys just don’t seem that enthused about the story.”

While not indicative of retailers in North America as whole, the majority of the responses I received seemed to range from cautious to actively negative. Even the retailers who are positive and excited about the event recognize the need to address readers’ concerns with regard to the storyline’s more controversial elements. The main takeaway seemed to be that retailers want Marvel be more receptive to building a dialogue because they feel their voices are going unheard, and it’s something that has an impact on their business, customers and livelihood. “Secret Empire” is going to chug along for the next few months, but on the ground it seems like many stores just want to move past it, onto the next thing, as soon as possible.

>>91874479
oh Chris

sweet, naive Chris

Article author also summed it up even more in his tweet:

https://twitter.com/KingImpulse/status/856963332166832137

>I'll dive into it in detail, but a big recurring theme is that retailers feel like Marvel don't listen to them compared to other publishers.

I remember hearing that since the 00's.

>>91874454
Marvel antagonizing the very people they pander to.

>>91874454
>LeBlanc raised that point that Marvel may have had more success with the initiative if it focused on the superhero resistance as opposed to asking stores to appear to be collaborating with the villainous organization.
This. A thousand times this. Hell, it would be so perfect. You can use the some tagline like "Join the Revolution!" or "Join the Cause!" or some shit and everyone would lap it up and buy into it. It's literally perfect.

But instead they promote the Hydra side? The side that Spencer and Marvel have literally painted as Trump Racist Facists? Are these people idiots?

>>91874450
>taking a principled stand against Marvel’s storyline

They never took a principled stand against Marvel's other terrible tie-ins. At least this one is well written.

No one flipped their shit when Axis came out.

>>91875195
>At least this one is well written.
let's not go crazy

>>91875243
But it is better written than Civil War II and Age of Ultron.

>>91875288
What a high bar\

>>91874454
What a pussy.

>>91875288
true but those didn't have a massive marketing blitz asking comic stores to dress up as Ultron or whoever

not a very big hurdle to be better than those, though

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>>91874450
>Catalog
>>91874454
>>91874479
>>91874504
All lies.

>>91875333
fuck off, Nick

>>91874450
>Mattel box art spiderman
>Timothy Spall as old man Logan
>The fantastic shrinking panther
>Locomotive Carol- justice league unlimited male base edition
>Rocket-Monkey
>Wikihow-Widow
>Manlet-pool
>Plastic Man america (this or he has a shield for a hand)
>The only marvel fan above fifty that would cosplay as Black Bolt

>>91875288
that doesn't make it well-written

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>>91874450
Somebody should send this to CBR

>>91874450
I've said it before and i'll say it again: Bendis and Spencer need to be fired. It's like those two have selective hearing, responding to the good comments and pretending like the haters don't exist.

>>91875404
>DC Universe Rebirth? That was the trial run. Marvel wins.
I wonder if Rich the Leech regrets this

>>91874906
Ike just really wants to cash in on the "Hail Hydra" memes

>>91875333
Nick Spencer discovering once again that SJW media manipulation is real.

>>91875470
Do you really think CBR and the like don't watch /co/? We have several known leakers.

I really want to see pics of the stores that do participate. I think its a fun idea, like when Dark Knight was coming out and they did a promotional Elect Harvey Dent for DA campaign at various cities.

>>91875512
He'll just say he was technically right in that it did get more attention at the time

I now you hate Marvel and everything /co/, but his is complete bullshit.
>"The last thing I want to do is force my queer, Jewish employee to wear a Hail Hydra shirt.”
It's fucking ridiculous.

>usual comic fans don't buy our shit anymore no matter how mad we make them!
>I know! let's piss the liberals now!
Do I smell Marvel crawling back from their dark ages?

>>91876328
why would he insult his Jewish employee in an interview?

>>91874450
What kind of self-respecting adult says shit like "very vocally not validating the emotions of...?

>>91876381
no, because they're still telling the same stories with the same writers

>>91876433
But now they do it to piss the SJW.

At the very least it'll be hilarious to see unlike the completely forgettable Civil War II and whatever came before it.

It seems like a mix of people who are personally offended by the books (and thus idiots) and retailers generally dissatisfied with the quality of Marvel's communication and the opportunities Marvel gives them. Which has certainly been going on for a lot longer than Secret Empire.

I mean the article is sold as based on the offensive content but the survey (which is not that many stores, really) can't even hold that up right?
>A number of retailers were generally apathetic, pointing out that Marvel’s attempt to include them in the takeover has been somewhat half-hearted and many of their customers just aren’t enthused about the story one way or the other. Zach Power of Iowa’s Daydreams Comics noted “We’ve never had much luck getting any interest from clientele in any companies various initiatives/parties/etc, so I tend to not pay them much attention.” while Kyle McCormick of Wyoming’s Gryphon Games & Comics won’t be participating because “our guys just don’t seem that enthused about the story.”
Wasn't this just as true for Civil War 2?
>There seems to be some misconception about what the Hydra takeover is, and how Marvel are coordinating with retailers. Everyone I spoke to said that they haven’t heard from Marvel directly about the marketing initiative, but there are promotional items that have been available to them for several months.
Is it even a real promotional drive? They call it a marketing takeover in the article but it seems more like an opt-in thing entirely.

The level of actual investigation here is really weak. It's a survey of voices but that guy talking about how only one of his customers orders Captain America: Steve Rogers. Is he actually worried about losing customers because of SE or does he just not sell much Cap? How much did he sell before Civil War II? How much after?

>>91876479
you realize Hydra are still the bad guys in Secret Empire even though Steve is one of them, right?

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>>91876480
>the quality of Marvel's communication and the opportunities Marvel gives them

>>91876507
Yes, and?

>>91876562
they're not doing it to piss off the SJWs, everyone is just misinterpreting it, apparently

>>91876557
Legitimately: what did you mean by this? I genuinely can't interpret your post as it comments on mine, so please explain or neck yourself.

>>91876601
Once the outrage motor starts running...

>>91876601
They're following the twitter shitstorm that followed the Cap reveal.

They know Cap being Hydra pisses them off.

>>91876616
>>91876656
I'm actually surprised /pol/ isn't more up-in-arms about this, they've rewritten the white blonde-haired blue-eyed ubermensch moral center of the Marvel universe to be an outright villain with Nazi undertones in order to make way for a black successor.

>>91876616
>Legitimately: what did you mean by this?
That you're a shill, simply.
>Marvel is doing fine again!

>>91876684
Can't tell if new or just reddit.

>>91876711
so are you saying he's not a villain or there are no Nazi undertones?

or making the ludicrous assertion that Steve will still be Captain America after this?

>>91875470
This one is the edited version anyway, isn't it? Give them the other one, the writing is better.

>>91876741
Damn. After all the Trump shit I seriously don't know if people who misinterpret /pol/ like that are new, SJW or just r/the_donald

>>91876684
It's much more likely you'll see a reset, because everything in comics inevitably resets. Cap will be undone by Sam and/or Bucky and/or others and in a year or two Steve will be Captain America again.

>>91876697
That's... not what I said senpai. Apparently you can't even read. I said Marvel was bad at communication with retailers, which meant retailers had a major problem with Marvel. I think that a good portion of the comments quoted in the linked article are about that over the specific content of HydraCap.

There was a tweet I kind of agreed with on the whole thing:
>Yr entitled 2 have a comic book written by someone who isn't a Nazi sympathizer (you have that) Yr not entitled to a well-written comic book

Like... you have people genuinely thinking Nick Spencer is a secret actual Nazi right now? That's not a weird meta joke, that's genuine nutjobs ranting the fuck out.

>>91875605
He never admits anything wrong, ever. He either doubles down, or pulls the "acktually, I was right because of one detail." See the "doom patrol is on indefinite hiatus" stuff that he tried to pull last month as an example.

>>91876684
Did you read the fucking comic?

>>91876772
...someone should send CBR the leaked FCBD preview which they've already reported on?

>>91876847
yes

there are zero arguments for Steve still being a hero. And despite Spencer's protestations, there's still some mad Nazi undertones to Hydra as a whole.

>>91876842
>"acktually, I was right because of one detail."
Very like Nick Spencer in that respect.

Honestly, I think if anyone else was writing HydraCap I think you'd see 1/10th the controversy. Nick Spencer is just such an uncontrollable asshole on social media.

>>91876858
Why send them a fake if they already reported the real one?

>>91876876
>And despite Spencer's protestations, there's still some mad Nazi undertones to Hydra as a whole.
Right, but HYDRA are the villains. Nobody cares if the villains are Nazis.

>>91876915
so Steve is a Nazi then

>>91876480
What I noticed is that the retailers that the guy on CBR interviewed aren't the same ones that usually report to Rich for the BC Bestseller list. So not only does that increase the sample size, but it seems to imply that the average reception toward SE seems to be lukewarm. Last week's Bestseller list had some people saying that Secret Empire #0 sold decently for them but with some caveats like how it was still being outsold by Batman, or how it's nowhere near the levels of what a Marvel event used to sell.

It'll still chart high based on how #0 was included in that Funko subscription box, though.

Can you imagine being the sort of retard who gets their panties in a twist because of a dumb twist in fucking comic books? Are these people so incapable of separating reality from fiction that they are afraid of a goddamned comic book event that'll all be reset at the end of the year anyway? Have none of them read a comic book before?
but muh nazis! but muh joos! Jesus fucking christ who cares?

>>91874479
>out of two hundred customers with pull lists, only one of them orders “Captain America: Steve Rogers"
Why did Secret Empire 0 only lose to Batman and Superman last week then?

>>91876933
Sure, or at least has "mad Nazi undertones" as you say. I'm not one of the folks who spasms when you say that. Are you?

>>91876995
because clearly that one store is not sufficient to make a generalization about the entire country

>>91876944
>So not only does that increase the sample size, but it seems to imply that the average reception toward SE seems to be lukewarm.
Sure, my point is just: wasn't the reaction to Civil War 2 also lukewarm? Hell, wasn't the reaction to Secret Wars 2 pretty lukewarm when the delays started kicking in? That whole "reboot of the universe starts in the middle of the event rebooting it" was some of the biggest clusterfucking I've ever seen from the Big Two.

DC has been putting in a lead on Marvel books since Rebirth kicked off. Is it a surprise Batman sells more than SE #0? Do we really think that's *only* because of the content of SE?

>>91876995
Because you don't understand how this market works. One store is not anything. Ten stores is barely anything, which is why the BC retailer chart is so fucking stupid when people take it as gospel.

>>91875512
send Rich the Leech a fake scoop. This tool will run with it. I've had a few of my fake scoops posted by him on his little blog. He never backed down when the facts caem out either. He knows he's just a douche looking for click

>>91876989
>Can you imagine being the sort of retard who gets their panties in a twist because of a dumb twist in fucking comic books?
Like this entire board?

>>91877085
Secret Wars and Civil War 2 both sold great for the first few months before delays hit and the stories just got stupider

Secret Empire might be DOA

>>91876995
Because it's one store. But taking the CBR article with the Bleeding Cool Bestseller list and the Comixology sales charts, you can conclude that paying customers were more interested in Batman and Superman than Secret Empire, even though Secret Empire might've had more retailer orders (and Funko orders) than Batman and Superman.

If the CBR article had retailers merely divided then that means the book might be having a decent reception and you could ignore the one retailer who only has one preorder for Cap. But the general feeling seems to be mixed to negative.

I literally don't understand why this is a big deal.
Its hardly the first time a hero has been brainwashed, even if this one is a slightly meta in universe retcon.
>b-but hydra are nazis!
Okay? And they're gonna lose and cap will either be fine or die and come back in a year or two and be fine.

This is what happens when you go too deep in the SJW nest.

>Gareth Hoskins of Virginia’s Victory Comics said his customers’ dissatisfaction with Marvel and “Secret Empire” began with the previous Marvel Comics summer event. “With ‘Civil War II,’ we began bleeding Marvel subscribers, because that event was a hot mess. Now we have ‘Secret Empire,’ and our customers are verbally angry with Marvel.” He noted that the general feeling in his store is that customers want it to hurry up and finish so they can enjoy Captain America comics again, a statement echoed by other retailers I spoke with.

Curse you, colored people ruining Marvel sales!

>>91877177
It's mainly a big deal in the sense that Marvel tried to push away its old readers in favor of potential new readers and only ended up pissing off their potential new readers instead.

>>91877165
I really wish that Diamond didn't count Crates/Funkos numbers

>>91877177
Normies and casuals who only know the movies are really fucking slow. Couple this with how reactionary social media tends to make people when they view everything through a filter.

Comic book geeks are used to the "NOTHING WILL EVER BE THE SAME AGAIN!!!" gimmick. People who so much as scoff at the mention of the words "comic book" aren't.

>>91874450
Thank god Captain America is taking a stand against Captain America. Along with Rocket the Werewolf.

https://youtu.be/5axJUbQiapU

>>91877177
they just don't enjoy the direction the story is going in right now, and I don't blame them. Steve finally comes back as Cap after years out of commission and he's instantly made a villain.

AND it's entirely possible that all the flags for Steve dying/giving up the mantle AGAIN is turning people off. He came back as Cap, what, a year ago? He's been dipping in and out of commission almost every other year for TEN YEARS at this point. It's ridiculous.

people can understand that it's temporary and still not like it. The fact that it's obviously temporary gives them even less reason to read it.

>>91877085
The sales on Hickman's Secret Wars dropped, but it was still at a high level:

05/15 Secret Wars Ltd #1 - 544,342
05/15 Secret Wars Ltd #2 - 231,560 (-57.5%)
06/15 Secret Wars Ltd #3 - 224,067 (- 3.2%)
07/15 Secret Wars Ltd #4 - 221,041 (- 1.4%)
08/15 Secret Wars Ltd #5 – 204,416 (- 7.5%)
09/15 ---
10/15 Secret Wars Ltd #6 - 192,244 (- 6.0%)
11/15 Secret Wars Ltd #7 - 177,019 (- 7.9%)
12/15 Secret Wars Ltd #8 - 169,667 (- 4.2%)
01/16 Secret Wars Ltd #9 - 149,028 (- 12.2%)

Civil War II's sales were also "decent" but not as good as Secret Wars'.

05/16 Civil War II #0 - 189,829
06/16 Civil War II #1 - 391,526 (+106.3%)
06/16 Civil War II #2 - 148,403 (- 62.1%)
07/16 Civil War II #3 - 185,949 (+ 25.3%)
07/16 Civil War II #4 - 126,865 (- 31.8%)
08/16 ---
09/16 Civil War II #5 - 120,208 (- 5.2%)
10/16 Civil War II #6 - 118,625 (- 1.3%)
11/16 Civil War II #7 - 116,447 (- 1.8%)
12/16 Civil War II #8 - 105,568 (- 9.3%)

On top of that it sounded like Civil War II may have hindered sales on the other books so whatever gains it got in sales might've been offset by losses on other titles.

>>91877372
>-62%
>-25%
>-31%
kek

>>91875333
They must be holding the Panel in a Janitor's closet.

>>91877614
At least they wouldn't have to pay to use it then.

>>91877452
It's +25%, and that was because they teased "A MAJOR CHARACTER WILL DIE" for that issue, which turned out to be Banner. They even spoiled it in the mainstream media, which shows you how much attention they really wanted.

After all that hype they placed on it, it didn't sell. At least, not in the way Death of Cap or stuff like that did.

>>91876741
Sam decided he could do more good as Falcon because the public saw his every move as Captain America as even more political than they already were. He's not going to be Cap after SE.

>>91877906
so is there just not going to be a Cap after SE, I wonder? Or will they double down again and give the shield to Zemo

>>91877931
Citizen V is a sellout and becomes Citizen H?

>>91876832
>you have people genuinely thinking Nick Spencer is a secret actual Nazi right now?
No, they think he's an open, sieg heiling, goose-stepping-in-the-streets actual Nazi now

>>91877318
Underrated

>>91877997
Wtf don't you drag my USAvengers into this

>>91877931
If this were written by someone else I'd say Kobik is going to wipe the slate clean at the end of the event, but Spencer doesn't strike me as someone who will take the obvious way out. My guess is there's not going to be a proper Captain America book going for a bit and Steve will be trying to redeem himself as Nomad.

But who knows, maybe USAgent or Bucky will take the role again. The new relaunch is supposed to be about honoring Marvel's legacy, after all.

>>91877931
Wrong.

There are already solicits of Sam as Cap after SE.

>>91874450
You live by the fee fees, you die by the fee fees.

>>91878346
>Implying there won't be a merger and USAvengers will be consumed into a larger America Corp consisting of all the Captain Americas and related characters.

>>91878381
considering we're only solicited out to July, when SE is still going on, I think you're making things up.

>>91878460
>considering we're only solicited out to July, when SE is still going on
You're right. It's even worse, he's getting the shield back while the event is still going.

When my lcs owner handed me the secret empire preview he called it propeganda

>>91878434
Hey man, as long as Ewing's still writing...

>>91878595
>he wants to waste ewing in literally who: the book
Hang yourself.

>>91877931
>>91878346
We'll probably run without a Captain America for a little while and they'll use Nomad and the new Patriot they're teasing.

Ideal outcome:
>John Walker becomes the new Captain America again
>gets stuck with Mexi-Falcon as his sidekick
>at the end of the series John sneaks into Mexico so he can make it more like America

>>91878629
isn't that every Ewing book though

>>91878571
I've never been to my LCS because pirating neet. Maybe I should go into it dressed up as a Hydra grunt and yell out "Hail Hydra!"

>>91878662
>implying Roya-
Damn, you're right.

>>91875404
These people are the biggest babies I've ever seen

>>91875486
Can Slott be thrown in the mix?

>>91878767
Slott writes one of Marvel's best-selling books. Though I suppose these days it would be least-worst-selling.

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>>91874450
Fuck you, Nick Spencer

>>91878767

The whole damn place needs to be cleaned out to be honest.

There's no future in writing comics for the big two. Either go indie or the webcomic route.

>>91878824
I'd side with that faggot Spencer over whoever that is every day of the week

>>91878820
You can literally throw anyone on the book and it would sell. It's Amazing Spider-Man. The autistic Spiderfags will literally buy Amazing Spider-Man no matter what because it's the "main" book (thus important).

>>91878846
all you need to do is create a character at DC that gets used in a movie and you'll be able to live pretty comfortably.

>>91878891

Meanwhile the poor bastard who created Rocket Raccoon doesn't get a dime.

>>91878935
>Len Wein gets more money off Lucius Fox royalties than Wolverine royalties
really the lesson is never work for Marvel

Such has been in the "this story is evil and harmful and an insult to jewish creators " beat for months. This is pure clickbait.

Maybe the event will flip but I don't trust anyone who pretends Hydra = literal Nazis or a promotion = insult.

The guy is a cynical bully trying to make money by exploiting actual suffering & pretending harmless art causes harm.

>>91878935
Neither did his version of Rocket.

All the Dimes of the Galaxy should go to Giffen and DnA.

>>91878964
incidentally, the story itself is pure clickbait

>>91878883
>You can literally throw anyone on the book and it would sell.
That's not true. Spider-Man was in a bad sales slump in the period between the clone saga and and JMS's revitalization. There was also a time when someone would say the same thing for the X-Men, but see what happened with Lemire's run. The core characterfags for any given title aren't that numerous.

>>91878989

Be that as it may, Bill Mantlo still came up with the character.

Poor guy's a vegetable now, but the point still stands.

Normally I'd be against Marvel typical event rot shit but the reason behind the current Filthy Fucking Casuals revolt is stupid.

How the fuck did they get it in their petty little heads that Hydra where Nazi? It doesn't make any sense since not even the movies back it up. Are they just mad that Orange Julius Shitstain won and they don't want a comic book storyline to reflect the current political reality?

>>91877364
If the event flops I'll be much more likely to believe that was the reason than that people were traumatized by Nazi-Cap.

The weird thing is that Marvel's line as a whole has been lighter and less dark for the last couple of years, but every time they do an event it's depressing and everyone behaves like an asshole.

And Willow Wilson's point about how established characters are humiliated to make the legacy characters look good kind of applies here. Sam doesn't really look good in all this, but the sense of Steve being an authoritarian old-fashioned relic compared to the new, wonderfully woke kids is irritating.

>>91874450
>The predominant answer received was that many stores were not taking part in the marketing takeover
That's because it wasn't really a "marketing takeover" at all. Just Marvel wanting to give stores a bunch of stuff.

According to Ryan (owns the Comics Conspiracy store) on the latest ep of his podcast it was basically just Marvel giving them some Photoshop files to help Hydra up their store logo and some other knick-knacks. They're even making the stores pay for the Hydra shirts.

Ryan said he was all for it when he thought it would be an organized marketing push by Marvel with stores. So that when every new issue of Secret Empire came out the stores would go Hydra. When he asked Marvel about the organization their response was pretty much "eh, just do whatever". Which apparently killed his enthusiasm for it since he thought it'd be a concerted and organized marketing thing with all stores that chose to participate.

>>91879084
I think Disney actually did send money to Mantlo's family. Roy Thomas has said he got money for Avengers: Age of Ultron (for co-creating Ultron and Vision) and Iron Fist.

It's basically hush money. When a creator is alive they give them some money so they won't complain to the media about being screwed.

It's sort of the technique Mr. Burns used by giving Homer a check so he wouldn't sue the plant for sterilizing him.

>>91878964
>>91879162
>Willow Wilson's
She wrote about how a cute girl took a violent mess of a woman and did superheroing influence from her, somehow.

>>91879236
they get SOME money, but it's laughable compared to what they get from DC

>>91879354
Marvel never had a Levitz. They do have an Ike, who stupidly tried to Jew Stan out of his money, only to get oujewed for his trouble, having to pay him even more than they were.

>>91879327
If a legacy character isn't worthy of being considered better than a shit hero like Carol, you can imagine how it feels when we're told a stupid new kid is a worthy successor to Tony Stark.

Or that Teen Tony Stark is a worthy successor to Tony Stark, for that matter.

>>91879421
Tony Stark was KANG and shit
That is like negative levels of worthy

>>91874450
>We live in an age where people are so pussified they're traumatized by wearing shirts representing fictional villains.

I want this Earth to be retconned already.

>>91879418
Don't forget Kevin Feige got him kicked out of the only Marvel product that's been relevant in the last 10 years.

>>91879084
>Bill Mantlo still came up with the character
He came up with the concept. His "character" was nothing special until other people came and made a complete re-haul making it successful.

>>91879861
That's one of the problems with all creator credits for shared characters though.

So because of the settlement with the Kirby family, Jack Kirby gets official credit now on all his co-creations, but the "X-Men Created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby" credit should be more like "Created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, re-created by Len Wein and Dave Cockrum, actually made popular by Cockrum, Chris Claremont & John Byrne."

Rob Liefeld and Deadpool is maybe the most famous modern example where it was his idea but he wasn't actually the one who made it any good.

>>91878962
Starlin made more money off KGBeast in BvS than he has for Gamora or Thanos combined

>>91874479
Holy shit Sho Nuff is my comic store

>>91876480
One of the politicians of my country was shot in the street by a neonazi last year. There have been several firebombings, and arrests of dozens.

Marvel should have been mutch more careful with depictions of Nazism.

To many, this is like if they had an event where ISIS were to take over the world, and use a cosmic cube to turn your Captain America into Captain ISIS.

Tone deaf is a dramatic understatement. Nazis are not just a haha funny american far right nut movement throwing their lot in with your new child dictator for a chance to knock shit around with their dick and so feel better about their stupid haircuts and existence of people willing to cross borders to support their families.

>>91880395
are you the one guy?

>>91880430
I don't think so. I only go every once in a while to buy Flash and GL Rebirth stories I really like.

>>91880424
Hydra aren't nazis. Baron Stucker, the original former Nazi who usurped Hydra from the Asians, was chased out of Germany and ordered shot on sight by Hitler for being a failure.

>>91880694

It's really funny the whole thing about the Red Skull arc was addressing this shit.

>>91880424
>>>/tumblr/

>>91878434
Bring back the 50 state Initiative.

>>91880424
How did /co/ get so fucking tumblr, I was only gone for a few months

>>91880694
They've been referred to as Nazis plenty of times in comics, mate.

Is the (manufactured) social media outrage relating to the story an example of the new audience learning Big 2 jewish tricks and the elasticity of corporate IP? If you've been reading mainstream comics for more than a year you know that characters are broken and reassembled perpetually. This was the third iteration of the Superior mode, right? Does the reaction prove that Marvel actually cultivated a new audience?
Ive never been convinced about the existence of that.

>>91880855
Fascists or Nazis? If the latter, was it by revisionist modern writers? Imperial Japan was allied with Nazi Germany but no one would refer to them as Nazis, which was a specific group with specific ideologies.

>>91880787
He's not entirely wrong. The whole Nazi thing in America is greatly overblown and mostly the result people throwing around the Nazi label like a game of Mad Libs. Actual far-right movements in America are fairly non-violent and thoroughly riddled with informants and undercover cops.

>>91877614
I was at C2E2
End the closet didn't want a part of this. The mops and brooms all jumped out

>>91880981
Outside of imagery, most people can't explain anything as Nazi outside of antisemitism and authoritarianism.

America is trans. Parker is a cuck. The Fantastic Four are incest. Deal widdit.

>>91880962
>any dissent about a thing I like must be manufactured
people didn't really like the last two times it happened, why would they like it now?

Especially when it's different from the previous two Superior iterations in that it's making a hero an outright villain, instead of a villain trying to be a hero or a villain acting slightly more dickish than usual.

>>91875404
"Hey, remember the cosmic cube? From the first Captain America movie? And they just used in an evebt right before this comiv started? These people dont."

>>91874740
I don't want to see that misplaced optimism crushed.

>>91881136
I dropped the Cap books, mostly because of personal econ, maybe kinda to spite Nick so I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm not reading this. But you're right. It's silly to presume of fellow comic fans as anything other than histrionic crybabies.

So now that Marvel apparently has their SJW audience they're moving on to pissing that fanbase off as per their usual strategy

>>91880981
If they're referred to as Nazis on panel by modern comic writers, doesn't that make modern Hydra Nazis?

>>91881888
When writers are wrong about things, future writers clean up after them.

I work at a LCS and I can say that I really haven't seen a lot of hype for this book at all. Plus the people who do talk about it trash it because
NOT MUH CAP.

>>91881888
>>91881924
HYDRA has always been exactly as TWS presented them, a Nazi-descended group that no longer hold true to the Nazi ideology. Authoritarian, yes. Fascist, arguably. Nazi, not really.

>>91881767
Well now they're pissing their SJW audience too.

>>91884639
That's what I'm saying

They courted a new audience and now that they have it (I guess) they're going back to antagonizing their audiences including the new one

>>91874450
I like how Marvel said they weren't doing Social Justice stuff anymore, and apparently thought the way to appease their fans was outright embracing Nazism. Which just made everyone hate them more.

Jesus what a shitty company.

>>91874906
Ike Perlmutter is part of the Trump administration. He probably thought he could shill for his team using his company.

>>91882255

>HYDRA has always been exactly as TWS presented them

Except Hickman retconning them as the Spear like 5 years before TWS

>>91875333

>The Twitter-Real world inversion on this is weird

Yeah, sure. Must be why this latest mega event got outsold by a regular issue of Superman

>>91878846
Why is it that Marvelfags always talk shit about comics and talk about how they need to die, but the stuff they complain about is always, ALWAYS Marvel exclusive?

See
>>91878891
>>91878935
>>91878962
>>91880162

>>91874450
This is the biggest non-story since everyone flipped out over HydraCap last year.

>HydraCap and Spencer will be the things responsible for /co/ loving marvel again

>>91886581
until the next issue of America comes out, anyway

>>91878935
That's actually a huge lie

Marvel pre-emptively set up a deal to give Mantlo a sweetheart deal to ensure he gets a cut of money from GOTG via Rocket Raccoon, in part because they knew that if they did not do so, there would be a huge fucking PR nightmare.

Same reason they keep publishing Starlin's increasingly shitty as hell Thanos/Warlock buddy books, to keep him from raising a stink in the press about getting a raw deal.

>>91886581

Unlikely since they're bringing out a knockoff Rebirth in a few months.

>>91875333
>pander to half of the internet fans
>those turn on you/ don't care anymore
>"internet fans don't matter"

Everyone falling for the Superior Spider-Man meme again, but, I am really sick of Marvel's dumb shock value tactics. I haven't purchased a comic by them in years.

>>91875288
Not better than stand-off, however

>>91878763
But they're angry, so the book should be selling.

>>91886183
Just goes to show how much people love Superman.

>>91879036
>Spider-Man was in a bad sales slump in the period between the clone saga
Can you just fucking guess why that might have been.
I believe that anon meant you can throw anyone who doesn't plan to go full retard with a convoluted mess of a plot on the book.

>>91888579
No he said
>You can literally throw anyone on the book
No room for exceptions there.

>>91875288
Being better than dog shit doesn't mean well written anon.

>>91877372
Holy kek batman. But issue two it was already selling worse than secret wars finally.

You guys are all fucking idiots. Marvel had a grounds to stand on to cash in the Hail Hydra merch, you idiots were lapping up the Hail Hydra memes during Winter Soldier but apparently because of Trump, Hydra is now a hot topic. God this is so fucking stupid.

I do think people getting triggered so hard is all sorts or retarded... but I don't care for this story, I'm tired as fuck of marvel events, nick spencer has been acting like a cunty faggot for months now, and the general direction of ghe whole line sucked for years now... if this backlash solves at least one of these problems, then I'm an happy person.

>>91875333
Oh, well if Nick Spencer said it!

>>91889728
>God this is so fucking stupid
Welcome to comics.

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>>91874479
>he is confident Marvel would never do anything to tarnish Captain America’s legacy

>Pool our money together
>Send a representative to Fox
>Buy the rights to FF for like a billion or so
>Send a representative to Marvel
>Propose to give them the rights to FF for free in exchange for the total control over Marvel Comics division - as long as it doesn't do anything to besmirch the name of the parent company
>Fire everyone there
>Hire back the good ones
>Go on a recruiting spree
>Start a Marvel Rebirth
Should I set up a kickstarter?

>>91886174
Hickman is the only person who uses Hickman's canon.

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>>91874479
>and he is confident Marvel would never do anything to tarnish Captain America’s legacy.

The the editors of Marvel.com disagree

>>91876989
You should really go somewhere else....

My LCS isn't taking part because the shirts are only L and XL and the owner is a huge fatass that needs at least a XXXL. No problems with the imagery or storyline.

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>>91878595
>Ewing

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>>91878846
>The whole damn place needs to be cleaned out to be honest.

Might be time for a change...

>>91874450
The funny thing about all of this bullshit is that back in the 90's, the whole thing would have just been done. Some comic shops would have just had employees in hydra shirts, and no bullshit abound.

These days, everyone and their grandma is a "comic fan", literally every one of you faggots is a god damned snowflake, and everyone is too fucking stuck on popular opinion to get thw fuck over a marketing ploy. Going as far as to act as if it mattered in some way, other than marketing. Like it's a personal attack of some kind.

All i gotta say is; get over it.
It's a neat idea, it hurts no one, it should offend less than no one, and it should serve the purpose of spreading word on the takeover event thingy.
Nope, literally nazis, literally raping my literally comicbook reading literal nana. The transexual hillary clinton supporter who was literally raped by trump winning an election. Literally.
Also, racism is bad. Not than anyone asked (black lives matter!!!!!!)

Grow up folks.

>>91874450
>Pissing of casuals with their shock tactics
>Pissing of fans with another Mega-Event and shitty writing
>Pissing off retailers by trying to get them to dress up as a group the casual customers they want to hold onto equate with Nazis.
>Inevitably going to piss off /pol/ with obvious shitting on Trump and having Minorities beat HydraCap
>Apparently the higher ups are pretty pissed as well.

Everything is going so wrong for Marvel and I couldn't be happier.

>>91874450
Holy shit, what kind of shitty webcomic artist did this promo art?

>>91893583
Cassaday hasn't worked regularly for more than a decade IIRC.

>>91890883
Spencer just used it in SE #0

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>>91882255
pic related


>>91893415
If it were in the 90s Cap probably wouldn't stay a villain for a year AFTER not being Cap for several years.

>>91889728
>but apparently because of Trump, Hydra is now a hot topic
That's literally Marvel's own fault, not ours.

Marvel and Nick Spencer were the retards who made Hydra into a metaphor for Trump and racist alt-right Facists that put minorities into camps and have their own Hitler youth. You can't say Hydra are as bad as Nazis/Republicans then say how badass they are and dress up as them.

Oh wow, an LCS of mine ended up on /co/!

>>91879129
>a secret organization in Germany during WWII with similar facism and looks

gee, I wonder why people would think Hydra and Nazis are related at all

>>91890526
do it

>>91874454
does he think hydra is real??