>People collectively losing their shit for Steve being a Hydra

No they don't. Comic readers love HydraCap

I unironically want him to win.

>>91720371
>Do these people even read comics?- 1 post shown.
No.

>>91720371
>Do these people even read comics?
>It's shit on purpose you guys! Don't you DARE insult Marvel and Disney OR ELSE
never fucking fails

>>91720371
>Do these people even read comics?
no
/thread

>>91720409
The arc isn't over yet, we don't know anything, stop being a companywhore

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>>91720385
Same.

>>91720371
Used to be that when the big media reported on comic events, like when Superman or Cap died, it made normies buy an issue or two, because they thought "OMG IT'S FOR REAL AND FOREVER".

They didn't read or understand comics then, and they still don't today. But nowadays, they just get on social media and bitch about it.

And then Marvel changes another character's sexuality or something to appeal to them.

>>91720371
Remember, when something bad happens to Captain America, look who is in office.

When the Democrats are in power again, Cap'll return to the status quo.

>>91720550
But the Magneto thing is bullshit, since he was a victim of the holocaust.

>>91720385
>>91720484
You mean Tad/pol/es

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>>91720572
>It's wrong for Magneto to be a fascist
>A man who was supreme ruler of the world on an alternate universe and made it's kind the rulers

>>91720385
Same. I know they want us to hate him, but seeing him BTFO Captain YASS KWEEN and the C-List mary sue brigade in Secret Empire 0 gave me life.

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>>91720699
Allying with Hydra in particular would be out of character.

>>91720572
Magneto has been ironically mirroring the behaviors of his oppressors since the beginning though. At least one of the billion alternate X-Men futures had him responsible for human concentration camps.

>>91720773
Damn Red Skull has been right for decades.

>>91720371
People who talk about comics for money NEVER read comics, they are icky and you can become a virgin again if you touch them.

People who actually read comics are busy with, well, reading comics.

>DC confirms that Wonder Woman is bisexual
>Wondy fans collectively go "No shit."
>everyone else goes APE SHIT
Casuals gonna casual, OP.

>>91720371
I'm annoyed they're spending the year on this predictable as hell Mega Event shit (we were outright shown how Cap dies in CW2) instead of anything related to Kirby's 100th.

>>91720791
there will always be a _____ concentration camps

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>>91720385
Fucking same. Hydra Cap is becoming one of my favorite all time incarnations of the character. He has many of the strengths and values of prior caps without the hesitation or mercy to give him pause in achieving his goals. He's a monster entirely his own.

So far I've compiled a list of SUPERIOR versoins of characters.
>SPOCK
>Superior Stark
>Hydra Cap

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>>91720773
Magneto is BTFO
>More REd Skull being right.

When this run finally finishes, I cannot fucking wait to storytime it from start to finish.

>>91721189
I not sure where else to ask this, but could someone post the edit of this page where the Red Skull's face was replaced with someone else's? I think I can use this page in one of my classes. I can talk about how knowing the speaker of a message will influence how receptive you are to that message (regardless of the message's overall content).

>>91720385
I don't hate it. I do love seeing Carol getting shit on and New York getting shit on. I do have small problems like how Daredevil and Iron Fist are the ones they use to fight the guy that controls gravity and how Hyperion eats shit after getting shot with a few lasers at once.

This might be inane, but I don't like how they made something that gives shield all the power of police and military. Did everyone forget that fucking Osborn was the leader of shield one time?

Also the 4D chess does come off as bullshit at times and it reminds me a bit of Nemesis. Carol has at least two superman clones and lesbian who can punch dimensions, but they can't handle a energy wall?

I may be just overly pessimistic after so much shit from Marvel.

>>91721287
You mean the one where the speaker is Bernie Sanders? Because the speech makes absolutely 0 fucking sense coming from Bernie, whether you like him or not.

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>>91721332
I think it was called "Red Anon". His facial features were obscured to the point where the speaker was unrecognizable.
>FOUND IT! I know what little side project I'm going to be doing next semester.

>>91721138
>Maestro
>Maker
>Pymtron

>>91720773
But Hydra isn't Nazi anymore, Steve took it back from Red Skull EXACTLY becasue he was pissed about it standing up for his ideals, it's the same reason why he killed him.

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>>91721471
>>Maestro
Yes.
>>Maker
YES!
>>Pymtron
YEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>91721138
>Hydra Cap will have Pymtron and SPOCK

So how is he going to get Superior Iron Man? Corrupting the AI?

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>>91721566
mfw

>>91721189
every page in this run is 3/4 dialogue
spencer is such a terrible writer that this speeh is the best part of his run and no where in this run does he ever effectively address these issues

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>>91721636
1. Corrupt his AI (assuming digital stark).
2. Tell him Steve will love him again is he goes Superior (assuming he's alive).
3. Pluck Superior Stark from the end of the original 616 timeline during his fight with cap.
>....I miss Superior Stark

Also I'd love a Superior Avengers Team
>Hydra Cap
>Superior Stark
>Spock
>Maestro
>The Maker
>Pymtron
>King Hyperion (technically an alternate verison but I consider him Superior)
I would read the shit out of this team.

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>>91721751
>>91721751
The issues aren't necessarily important (because he ultimately has no plan of addressing them). He is telling the populace exactly what they need to hear to get them on his side. He's luring them in with useless rhetoric meant to appeal to their patriotism and then when they let their guard he indoctrinates them with Hydra philosophy and begins using them as pawns in his schemes..

>Spencer is such a terrible writer
I strongly disagree with that statement and consider Captain America: Steve Rogers to be some of the best current writing out all of Marvel's current titles. To each their own.

>>91721138
My biggest worry is other writers writing him. I love Hydra Cap but Ewing just didn't seem to get his voice in the latest USAvengers, and this is coming from a Ewing fanboy.

>>91720371

Its pretty much confirmed that this Steve isn't 616, But Ultimate Steve who ended up coming back to life at the end of Secret Wars and replaced 616

there's a shitload of things that some closest friends of old cap doesn't like on Hydra Cap, and the fucker acts like Ultimate as he pleases.

im really to feel that Secret Empire will end up like this

>Hydra Cap is revealed to Be Ultimate who were resurrected at the end of Battleworld
>Real Cap/616 Steve is hanging out somewhere trying to go back into real space since the events of Battleworld/Kobik
>Real Cap ends up showing at the end to help fight Hydra cap thanks to a Resurrected Kobik
>Miles Kills Ultimate cap as the Real Steve/616 Comes back, but the general's trust on superheroes goes down
>Kobik tries to remedy this by bringing "hope", Generations kicks in.
>More ultimate characters who were deemed killed starts to show up, Including Ultimate Hulk, Utimate Peter and Ultimate Pym

>>91721859

>defending a butthurt writer

Its worse than Bendis making CW2 as a butthurt vengeance towards hickman and Secret Wars

>>91721763
Honestly, could work as a new Squadron Superme.

I mean, I know the whole thing is that the Squadron is supposed to be an evil Justice League, but that joke has been played out. Might as well turn it into an evil Avengers.

Or maybe they can turn the Squadron into a collection of /a/ archetypes that turned evil. anything to shake it up really.

Not at all. If they read any they would know that everything goes back to the status quo.

>>91720371

The issue is that it tarnishes Cap as a character forever.

See, the thing about Steve is that he's more than just a superhero, he's sort of the moral standard for the Marvel universe. Captain America could tell you to fight against impossible odds with the stern promise that he'll come back to help you, and you'll take his word for it because he's fucking Captain America. And then he'll come back to help you, because he never lies.

The whole concept of this is really stupid, because it's the equivalent of Magneto actually being an SS Kommandant. It's like if Frank Castle was a mobster.

More, it's done solely for shock value. It's nearly impossible to salvage this premise without shitting over Cap. And, guess what, the big reveal is that the ACTUAL Captain America, the original Steve Rogers, was a Hydra agent.

The one we know and love, in the current Marvel Universe, was created by the Cosmic Cube. He ain't real.

It's like the Superior Spider-man, but worse.

>>91722328
Welcome to the life of Iron Man fans, they've managed. All I care about is if the story is good, the status quo will return eventually and this won't come up again except in small quips.

>>91722377

It's going to be REALLY, REALLY hard to come back from this. Unless they wipe everybody's memories, how the fuck is anyone going to forget this?

> "Hey, remember when Captain America turned the entire country into a fascist state?"

Like, how could he ever be trusted again? It's like if Superman went on a killing spree in New York, and later on said he was sorry. I'm sorry Supes, but watching you smash people to bits with your bare bloody hands? That's going to stick with me for life.

>>91721138
It's just great seeing heroes who are ACTIVE instead of reactive. It's incredible when a capeshit character actually sets out to achieve goals instead of sitting in a base somewhere waiting for a villain to try something.

>>91721744
when

>>91722156
>Pretty much confirmed
Your fanfiction isn't canon

>>91722432
People get forgiven for unforgivable shit in comics all the time. It's like a defining trope in cape books.

>>91722584
>Hank Pym
>Cyclops
>Forgiven

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>>91722048
Ewing's Cap was a little too obvious that something is going on under the hood so to speak.

>>91722188
I like your way of thinking.

>>91722487
>>91722487
>It's just great seeing heroes who are ACTIVE instead of reactive
Couldn't have said it better myself. It's for that reason that I really enjoy the series The Authority, simply for the fact that these heroes actively attempted to make the world a better place (even if it didn't always work out). Something about that is incredibly refreshing and I think makes for a more compelling story (which isn't to say reactive heroes don't have their time and place -- it just seems like every hero is reactive these days).

Also how does everyone feel about Cap's new shield? I don't like how it's no longer an aerodynamic discus but instead a shield used to bash his enemies into submission. The new weapon has forced Cap to change his fighting style slightly (far more direct) which is in line with his change in ideology.

>>91721859
>The issues aren't necessarily important
the issues are the most important part of this speech

>I strongly disagree with that statement
Spencer is a strange one considering that he's absolutely capable of writing a good story
but he is so far left that his idea of a right-wing extremism is this>>91721189 so when any of his stories gets even mildly political i don't see how anyone with any kind of political awareness could take it serious

>Captain America: Steve Rogers to be some of the best writing out all of Marvel's current titles
i have not read a lot of new cap but what i have read i liked but the real test of his character will be in secret empire when someone directly challenges his worldview
his answer and the way the narrative treats his answer will tell me whether or not he is a genuinely well-written character

>>91721763
>Superior Avengers Team
as much as I love that idea, I feel like they would never work together because they all have their own ideas of what the world should be like. they may work together for a bit but ultimately they would undo themselves.

>>91722611
>Jean Grey
>Wolverine
>Wanda
>Carol
>Especially Carol

>>91722547

cry some more /pol/fag

knowing marvel, they will rip off DC once again

>>91722432
>It's like if Superman went on a killing spree in New York, and later on said he was sorry
Isn't that pretty much exactly the set up for the Justice League in the DCAU? Darkseid takes control of Superman, let's him loose on Earth, then Superman breaks the control and saves the day but is still left with his trust among the populace shattered and he has to rebuild it over time?

Do you have any idea how many times Wolverine has been put under mind control and proceeded to kill innocent people? Or how about when Tony Stark, of his own volition, revealed that he had secretly been working for Kang for years and killed multiple Avengers. Or when Daredevil became The Beast and used an army of undead ninjas to take over Hell's Kitchen.

Cap'll do a big speech and then have a run dedicated to him re-earning the peoples' trust and then everything goes back to how it was.

>>91722751
That's why I think it'd be great for a one-shot series, everyone trying to dick each other over behind each other's backs.

>>91720385
I too. It's awesome and I personally want Dark Eign2.0: green bogaloo happening

>>91722889
yes but who would end up the last man standing?I think it'd be Cap. everyone would underestimate him. Hyperion and Pymtron would be first ones out. to powerful and dangerous to let them gain any ground.

>>91720371
probably not anymore, they just see the title and get pissed. I actually kind of like the story from a "what if" perspective, but it's just a shame that all this reality-warping bullcrap has to happen just so that it can stay in the main marvel universe and stay long enough develop the situation.

>>91720371
>Do these people even read comics?
No (period full stop).

I'm old enough to remember when people LOST THEIR SHIT over Robin being killed by the Joker ( and my Dad, who was a long time DC fan, wondering how all the idiots talking about it hadn't noticed that Dick had been Nightwing for literally YEARS at that point ); and then they did the same thing when Superman "died" a few years later ( not the first time he'd "died" in comics and anyone who read comics knew he'd be back soon enough ).

Most people are inherently Reactionary and have a kneejerk response to anything changing from how they think it should be ( which is typically how they remember whatever it is from the first time they encountered it as a child ).

So you end up with jems like this:
https://www.theguardian.com/media/video/2013/dec/13/santa-white-jesus-white-fox-news-megyn-kelly-video

Or the same gang of idiots bitching that Captain America ( a dude that literally wears a flag and punched Hitler in the face ) ... "shouldn't be political."

>>91720371
>allegedly Magneto allying with them.

>Magneto tried to wipe out humanity many times
>Totally fine
>Magneto allies with Hydra
>OMG MARVEL IS NEO NAZIS

How retarded are these people?

>if you like Hydra Cap you're /pol/
Christ some of you cunts are really annoying. I'm a leftie and I'm enjoying this storyline a lot.

Learn to stop being triggered over fiction, it's pretty damn embarrassing to start accusing people of being nazis if they enjoy a comic about a fictional character being a bad guy. Get a grip.

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>>91722953
>>91722889
God damn this would be a good one-shot/limited series. They could stretch that premise out for 6-12 issues easy. Each chracter would get a spotlight issue and then they'd all cumulatively work towards a common goal in the back half (with everyone going full on scheming and plotting). It'd be one of this situations where the teammates are dropping like flies with everyone knowing someone on the team is responsible but keeping those thoughts to yourself so as not to tip your hand. >I vote we'd get Spencer, Duggan, or Parker to write it.

>>91720371
>Do these people even read comics?

Literally no

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>>91723632
I miss King Hyperion.

>>91722487
>It's just great seeing heroes who are ACTIVE instead of reactive.
>heroes
>Captain Hydra

Anon, I have some bad news for you.

>>91722432
I'm not saying this to be a dick or anything, but do you actually read comics? Do you know what a retcon is?

>>91720371
>>People collectively losing their shit for Steve being a Hydra agent and allegedly Magneto allying with them
nobody cares about Magneto
nobody
its all about Marvel making Captain America a literal nazi and insisting he was bad since the begin of times.

>>91723859
Spotted the moviefag.

>>91723859
>nobody cares about Magneto

Newfags pls leave.

>>91724079
oh please, in the last 3 decades magneto allied himself to everyone, he is a political whore. and lost all relevance he had after Charles died.

>>91720371
i.e. Oliver Sava's complete meltdown on the A.V. club.

>>91720371
>Do these people even read comics?
They don't, because if they did it clearly tries to equate Hydra to the Trump administration. Steve Rogers is essentially Trump, and now all the other heroes have to go beat him up.

>>91724370
you are the one who dont read enough captain america.
capt used to stand for the ideal of democracy and freedom. Hydra was literally teh representation of nazi/communist/terrorist/neonazi/extremist/terrorists.

>>91724480
Newsflash for you, kid: Civil War Cap is just as out as OOC as you say Hydracap is.

>>91724480
How does what you say contradict what I said? Nic Spencer is trying to say that Hydra/Trump is just a dumbed down version of the Facism/Nazi/Extremism.

>>91722751
>The Superiors are brought together by a character who brings them together to fight against threats that heroes have either forgot about or left unchecked. They are the only one's willing to do what it takes to stop them

>They're all secretly taking steps to use the threats to make the world in their image.

>Some members make secret alliances to screw over the others and bring their own plans to fruition.

I could see Captain Hydra and Spock working together

>series isn't even out yet
Didn't Secret Empire #0 come out this week? I have it on my shelf

>>91724615
are you a retard?
Spencer is attacking the ideal of democracy and freedom, not the person of trump or the state of current politics. if you cant see it then you are one of those brain dead millennials.

>>91720371
It's fake drama to drum up interest nobody cares about comics that much especially when it is obviously just another "shocking" event.

>>91724660
Come on drop the personal attacks.
A story can have more then 1 hidden meanings, you say it's a critique on ideal freedom and democracy, I say it is a allegory for the Trump administration. We can both be correct here.

>>91720474
It's been a fucking year now and we're in the event stage. If they haven't explained shit properly in the framing stage to calm the controversy, they've failed

>>91724154
All that shit happened in a little over a decade. Clones and mind control don't count.

>>91724748
fuck you, you nazi lover. people like you hate the few good things democracy and freedom still can offer, well I hope one day you millennials actually manage to destroy freedom and democracy for good, see if you entitled assholes will enjoy living in Orwellian nightmare

>>91720371
>>Asking for Nick Spencer to be fired.
fired upon with actual firearms, lemme be clear on that.

>>91722156
>Its pretty much confirmed that this Steve isn't 616, But Ultimate Steve
Where?

>>91724844
Holy fuck, anon, are you ok? go catch a breath and throw a frisbee.

>>91724837
>Clones and mind control don't count.
Ok, you have a point there, but still, he lose all relevance after Charles was "righted" by cyclops.

>>91724844
>fuck you, you nazi lover.
Wait how did you come to that conclusion? lol
>people like you hate the few good things democracy and freedom still can offer
What?
>well I hope one day you millennials actually manage to destroy freedom and democracy for good
??????
>see if you entitled assholes will enjoy living in Orwellian nightmare
???????????????????????

>>91724918
not everyone is tolerant of nazis like the current American SJW youth, dont be offended, lil tumblr Goebbels. I'm sure he will regret oposing the main stream after you get in command
Hail Tumblr!

>>91720371
> 'Do these people even read comics?'

We did when they weren't complete & total shit.

>>91724997
Dude, we were having a discussion about Nic Spencers Cap run and you just went into full autistic screeching mode.

>>91720371
>>Asking for Nick Spencer to be fired.
This is just sound practice. They should be calling for that regardless of D*sney's latest marketing gimmick.

>>91725021
yeah. to be honest I dont even know why I keep torturing myself over this. I'd be happier if I just pretend really died at the end of Civil War (which was pretty bad already) and stop reading marvel comics for once.
at least DC wont make superman or batman canonical nazis

>>91725056
>Nic Spencers Cap run
of course it would end badly, you really expect someone not to go apeshit over that? then you really don't read Captain America. only someone who don't read or HATE captian America would NOT lose his shit over him turning in a Hydra agent.
But lemme try to explain it to you, in a way maybe you understand:
Batman is retconned, and we end discovering he was the Joker all the time, and now that is official, and it goes back all his existence. also, he is also a racist nazi KKK wizard or something.
that's what Spencer did to Captain America, and no, it was not OK

>>91725107
to be fair, Im surprised with Disney. usually Disney has a very tight control over their assets... to them allowing something like this and not firing anyone is weird.

>>91725216
>bawww "don't make the good guy a bad guy, it confuses and angers me"

>>91723859
>and insisting he was bad since the begin of times.

Why do people have such a hard time understanding how Steve got Kobik'd?

>>91725216
Sure, it's annoying and a pain in the ass, but didn't the cosmic cube/little girl, like fake retcon Steve's live not really fuck over his real life.

To be honest in a year from now Steve Rogers will be back to normal and this will all be gone.

>>91723698
He's a hero to me my guy. I don't care what handwringing message the writers intended.

>>91725261
cause editors and the author insist he was not Kobik'd at all
also, its not teh kind of change you can simply brush away.
Hey, people still point fingers at Pym for beating janet ONCE, now you say the captain turn into a nazi and we all should chill cause it gonna get retcon later?

>>91724921
True, but at that point, most people stopped caring about X-men on a whole.

>>91725404
>cause editors and the author insist he was not Kobik'd at all

The fuck are you talking about

>>91725269
>Steve Rogers will be back to normal and this will all be gone.
well, I will never read Captain America without remembering this long and painful arc, its his new lowest point ever.
therefore to avoid further disapointment, I will just quit it and let you Nic Spencer/tumblr crowd have him, Im sure Marvel wont miss my money in the long run

>>91725419
well, you right again. shame this is a Nic Spencer thread, this would be a neat Magneto discussion

>>91725452
Ignore the retard, he/she probably only reads the thinkpieces on tumblr and buzzfeed about how the comic is ~problematic instead of actually reading it.

>>91725457
>I will never read Captain America without remembering this long and painful arc
> Im sure Marvel wont miss my money in the long run
The way you talk, I'm sure you don't read comics in general and you're just a moviefag that wants to get into the controversy.

>>91725756
I read captain since the 80's, when I used to hunt down old captain comics from 70s

>>91720591
>Hydra are Nazis.

Once again, Tumblr proves they don't read comics.

>>91725885
Hydra were nazis, and I dont remember they ever rejecting that part of their past, they just added the communist parts over the old nazi shit to make them look even more evil than original nazis.

>>91725885
>hey we were allied to Nazis, we enforce their beliefs, defend their ideas and we even fought alongside them, but WE ARE NOT NAZIS OURSELVES...
>like we totally stood by them when they committed genocide, we hates jews and blacks but that dont mean we are like the nazis
>you are the nazi for calling Hydra nazi!

>>91725404
Steve being Hydra is not something you can retcon away or handwave.

>>91726279
they can retcon anything they want, the question is if buyers will... buy it

>>91725244
It feels a little like a "fuck you" to Marvel Studios.

> Zemo reading the Darkhold

Spencer retcons reading the Darkhold as having zero consequence to the reader.

>>91726407
I thought only Blackout read it?

>>91726407
this
>>91726330

he cant just stop himself of retconning things.

>>91720877
Some people on /co/ went ape shit about that too, because apparently it was just Rucka "virtue signalling" instead of confirming something that like you said, literally anyone who read a WW book already knew

>>91726470
Name other things he's retconned.

>>91726541
isnt turning Captain in a nazi enough?
what else, the Zemo BFF? I cant really keep track of all his shitty decisions

>>91720550
Did you only get your information from Shortpacked? It's complete bullshit. Captain America was dying in the 90's (final part of Gruenwald's run) and came back while Clinton was in office.

And if you try to counter with "Oh but he died and came back during a Democrat's term" and point to Brubaker's Cap, then I'll also point out that Steve Rogers quit as Cap during Nixon's term and returned as Cap during Ford's term. And Steve quit as Cap in the 80's during Reagan's term but returned as Cap back during Bush I's term.

That belief is about as inaccurate as thinking Funky Winkerbean had incest.

>>91725885
>let ignore all the times Red skull wore Nazi imagery
>lets ignore Red skull relation to Hydra

WEW LAD

>>91726607
That's not a retcon, that's an isolated manipulation to Steve by Kobik. And Zemo is being his BFF because he doesn't care about Steve's crazy ramblings about a wrong history, just that it furthers his means. You really don't sound like you even read this book.

>>91726607
>Zemo BFF
>shitty decision
Found the tumblrite.

>>91720385
>Comic readers love HydraCap

were you not on /co/ when they called this shit out for being the shitty heel-turn cash grab that it is?

>>91726722
>lets ignore Red skull relation to Hydra
You mean the complete lack there of? That's the point. Red Skull may have been a Nazi, but he wasn't Hydra until... one year ago, and it's explicitly stated that Red Skull was just using Hydra to his own ends and his personal beliefs (that of a Nazi) were contradictory to those of Hydra. Hence why Steve killed the Red Skull for trying to steal Hydra and corrupt it for his own ends.

Only MCUfags think Red Skull has anything to do with Hydra, hence why it's pretty much only MCUfags that are complaining about this shit and acting like it's some grand betrayal.

>>91726790
Yeah, then they actually read past issue 1.

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>>91726790
>It is a shitty heel-turn cash grab?
Yes

>Is it well written so far?
He's tumbling on some things but it's solid.

>>91726795
that is a good example of retcon, he was always a nazi and he created hydra.
but who cares, all things shall get retcon eventually

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>>91726722
redskull dipped out of the nazi regime because they weren't edgy enough.

then they made red skull the good guy for some reason and then turned cap into Hitler with space rocks.

>>91722432
The cleanest way would be that when restoring the original cap, he'd actually be split into two, with Hydra Cap remaining as a separate character. Maybe give him a deformed faced somehow making him a new "Skull". In that case, it'd be pretty easy to blame everything on him.

>>91726889
>>91721189
>>91720773

>Red Skull dropping mics like no ones business

Writers really like to get on him.

>>91726923
While I like that in concept doubles just don't have much longevity as characters, just look at Ragnarok.

>>91726941
Its not hard to write a nihilistic/edgey character.

>>91726923
Honestly with how Cap has been acting out of character (long before Spencer even wrote the book) after he came back to life, you could claim the one that showed up in Captain America Reborn was a different person entirely who happened to have Steve's memories. I think the only thing of value you'd lose is Remender's run.

>>91726057
>like we totally stood by them when they committed genocide, we hates jews and blacks but that dont mean we are like the nazis

Nah, that's exactly what they're trying to avoid with this silly "we aren't Nazi". They don't hate Jews or Black or Mexicans, the true Hydra hates actual space aliens and apparently Inhumans going by Cap's flashforward.

They're still fascist though, but this whole "we aren't nazi!" stuff is exactly separate them from real world racism.

>>91726856
>and he created hydra
Not even in the MCU did he create Hydra. He had NO involvement in Hydra's creation nor was he even a member of Hydra until literally a year and a half ago in the comics.

How does any of this shit connect with Hickman's SHIELD series? I can never tell if that shit is still in continuity.

>>91726941
the worst part is that instead of turning cap in a nazi, they should have gone with Red Skull becoming a real, vox-populi loved politician, it would be a much more intense criticism to trump and to the system and it would not enrage the fans.
but i suppose the point was making teh white straight hero become a evil villain so Captain Marvel can eventually save the day

>>91720371
>People collectively losing their shit for Steve being a Hydra agent and allegedly Magneto allying with them.

Judging from the poor sales of the story arc, most people don't really give a shit anymore.

>>91727009
yes, case in point, our new captain America, who is a literal nazi>>91727025
su

>>91726856
>he was always a nazi
Correct.

>he created hydra
Not even remotely true. The origins of Hydra have been retconned multiple times and in NONE of them is he the creator of Hydra.
Originally, it was created by an American businessman named Arnold Brown. Then it was retconned that it was created by Strucker. Then it was retconned that Strucker didn't create it, he merely took it over and it was originally an eastern/japanese-based organization. Then it was retconned that this eastern-based Hydra was the modern incarnation of the ancient Brotherhood of the Spear which dates back to Ancient Egypt and was the eastern counterpart to the west's Brotherhood of the Shield.

In NONE of these versions of Hydra's origins, from the modern origin to the original Lee/Kirby origin, was Red Skull even remotely involved. In NONE of them is Hydra a Nazi organization. The closest it ever got was Strucker being its leader with Strucker being a former Nazi, but he had renounced Nazi-ism as a failed and flawed ideology before taking over Hydra.

>>91727030
in teh CURRENT comics, excuse me.
back in teh day he was both creator and leader of Hydra, and a fucking nazi zealot

>>91726889
But antibiotics don't do anything to help you with drinking sodas and eating read meat.

>>91727178
>questioning comic book writers use of science
dude lamow just turn ur brain off he's the bad guy anyway.

>>91727122
The sales are pretty good for a Captain America comic, actually, especially considering how Marvel's sales in general are low. In January it sold 42k units while the previous Steve Rogers book sometimes dropped to the low 30ks. So, although it's not very big, considering Marvel's current conditions it's actually one of their rare successes.

>>91727154
Struker was a nazi. he was literally SS

>>91720385
>ow the edge

>>91727226
current readers don't care about nazis or WWII
they don't even read history books for fuck sake

>>91727241
> a traditional american is edgy because we're told he's the bad guy.

>>91727109
I get that it would be more accurate, but sometimes subelty gets the idea far more than direct similarities. Cap as Hydra is a good idea because he was the moral compass for most of the heroes, now they have to figure out what to do with their own personalities.

Let's hope they don't throw it under the bus because "muh cap is not a nazzee"

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>>91727227
>The closest it ever got was Strucker being its leader with Strucker being a former Nazi
Yes, Strucker was literally a Nazi. "Was."

WHERE
THE FUCK
IS IAN

>>91727298
He's The Kraken in the New High Council of Hydra that Madame Hydra put together. His recruitment scene made this pretty obvious.

>>91727367
I assumed that, but I'm a pretty dim guy, and when that issue released there were a few other characters being thrown about as candidates.

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He's right here.

>>91727421
it's a pretty safe bet all things considerd

>>91727435
Meant for:
>>91727298

>>91727226
I wouldn't say it's as much a success considering all the media hype they tried to push for it when the series launched.

For a Cap book, it sells okay. But "okay" is not what you want for a book that got coverage from Time, Associated Press, Entertainment Weekly, etc during the week it was released.

> In January it sold 42k units

January was the month Marvel overshipped on all books. Dec it was 38K, Feb it was 36K, March, 38K. So it's close to 40K (and might even increase when the event goes on) but like I said it's not really good when Marvel purposely had a lot of media coverage (and it was deliberate; they spoiled the twist in the first issue to the press).

>>91727421
>family to Steve
>brown hair
>jacked body
>Steve believes him to be dead
>the Ghost of Worlds Lost (reminder that the Ian that would be in 616 right now is from the pre-Secret Wars multiverse and survived the end of everything and Secret Wars via the Infinity Elevator)
There's really nobody else that it could be that wouldn't require insane amounts of asspulls.

>>91721763
All of those people could work together except Spock and maybe Pymtron.

>>91722611
>>91722779
>Men
vs
>Women + Wolverine

>>91722156
>Its pretty much confirmed that this Steve isn't 616
No, #0 confirmed it was 616. Steve's current memories are actually his original ones, the Americans used a cosmic cube to change the outcome of the war, the result being Cap was never a double agent, Zola joined the Nazis, etc. Kobik only undid the original reality warping that turned Cap into the one we've known since his creating.

>>91727226
>>91727476
Here's the sales for Remender's Captain America:

11/12 Captain America v8 #1 - 123,667 (+207.6%)
12/12 Captain America v8 #2 - 64,377 ( -47.9%)
01/13 Captain America v8 #3 - 59,836 ( -7.1%)
02/13 Captain America v8 #4 - 53,112 ( -11.2%)
03/13 Captain America v8 #5 - 49,186 ( -7.4%)
04/13 Captain America v8 #6 - 47,802 ( -2.8%)
05/13 Captain America v8 #7 - 44,024 ( -7.9%)
06/13 Captain America v8 #8 - 43,791 ( -0.5%)
07/13 Captain America v8 #9 - 40,796 ( -6.8%)
08/13 Captain America v8 #10 - 39,356 ( -3.5%)
09/13 Captain America v8 #11 - 38,521 ( -2.1%)
10/13 Captain America v8 #12 - 38,684 ( +0.4%)
11/13 Captain America v8 #13 - 36,147 ( -6.6%)

And here's Spencer's Steve Rogers:

05/16 Cap America SR #1 -140,222
06/16 Cap America SR #2 - 74,884
07/16 Cap America SR #3 - 65,455 (-12.6%)
08/16 Cap America SR #4 - 49,559 (-24.3%) (CV2)
09/16 Cap America SR #5 - 50,536 (+ 2.0%) (CV2)
10/16 Cap America SR #6 - 49,111 (- 2.8%) (CV2)
11/16 Cap America SR #7 - 48,505 (- 1.2%)
12/16 Cap America SR #8 - 38,610 (-20.4%)
01/17 Cap America SR #9 - 42,637 (+10.4%)
01/17 Cap America SR#10- 40,051 (- 6.1%)
02/17 Cap America SR#11- 36,610 (- 8.6%)
02/17 Cap America SR#12- 32,567 (-11.0%)

Remember that Spencer's Cap had two things intended to boost it up, the hype/talk around Cap being Hydra and Civil War II, which was supposed to be a big thing last year. I don't recall if Remender's series had a crossover with an event.

>>91727822
>End of Secret Empire
>Either everyone is dead or Cap wins
>Shows Reed Richards watching.
>"That could have gone better. I wonder how 616 is doing."

>>91727892
Goddamn Civil War 2 was cancer for every book.

>>91725951
>Hydra were nazis

No they fucking weren't retard, they /allied/ themselves with nazis.

>>91726057
>we enforce their beliefs
No, only Red Skull does. Who has dick to do with Hydra except to a moviefag like you.

> defend their ideas and we even fought alongside them

No they fucking didn't. They fought alongside them because they thought exploiting the Nazis would be the easiest way to rule the world.

>we hates jews and blacks but that dont mean we are like the nazis

Only Red Skull does.

>you are the nazi for calling Hydra nazi!

When the fuck did I call you a Nazi? Retard sure, but not a Nazi.

>>91726722
>Red Skull wore Nazi imagery.

>Hydras uniforms were different.

Hmmmmmmm, it's almost like he joined up with Hydra /after/ WWII or something...

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>>91727918
Did you read the issue or anything involving Ultimate Cap's origins?

>>91728028
thats bullshit anon, they are nazis, just stop saying they are not

>>91727822
Nigga the american cosmic cube stuff is only in the flashbacks, all signs point to it just being part of Steve's Kobik'd memories to justify to Steve why he still remembers 616. The only mystery is Elisa but I'd bet money Hydra Cap's history is not the real one one that was altered or anything.

>>91728133
Not him, but Hydra aren't Nazi's. They were led by former Nazis, but the Hydra the Red Skull created recently was Hydra in name only, an entirely new group he created on American soldier.

>>91728133
They're not though!

That's like saying AIM is anti-consumerism because Ghost worked with them at one point.

>>91727892
RCA - 679,299 units/52k AVERAGE
SSR - 668,747 units/51k AVERAGE

I would say it is ok numbers but when you compare with Remender's issues and remember that it had such strong numbers... Its quite a fail.

>>91728228
Kobik has explicitly said that she created the Hydra timeline and even the recap page of Secret Empire explicitly states that Cap's new history was created by Kobik.

It's not "fake memories." It's REAL memories, but they're memories of a universe that Kobik created.

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>Why are people so upset about Marvel making a WW2 vet and a Holocaust survivor Nazi's?

>>91728761
Really? They are? Which characters?

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>>91728381
Yeah, if it was a Cap book that had just the minimum about of hype like Remender's, it would be okay. But like I said, Spencer's run had a lot of intended advantages over Remender's to boost sales (HydraCap, CW2)... and the sales level ended up being even with Remender's.

It's also why Brevoort's words about how angering fans leads to increased sales is funny to think about in retrospect.

>>91728814
The difference is that they didn't anger fans. The fans were apathetic because it was just yet another "hero breaks bad" story. The people that were furious and kicking up a storm in vitriolic rage were a bunch of slacktivist stucky shippers.

>>91726057
Do you feel this way about IBM and Hugo Boss?

>>91729042
>The fans were apathetic because it was just yet another "hero breaks bad" story.

And they kept going to that well because they think Superior Spider-Man angered fans yet sold well.

>The people that were furious and kicking up a storm in vitriolic rage were a bunch of slacktivist stucky shippers.

True, but at the same time they want that audience. Why else would they announce the spoiler in the regular news media?

>>91720385
Same here, i like them takig risks with superheroes and this is a huge one.

That is, if they dont reset it at the end and make all of this meaningless. People who mixes their comics with politics need to grow up.

>>91729122
IBM and Hugo boss dont try to pretend the Nazi weren't nazis, they try to bury that past under piles of money and PR
at least you agree captain is now a nazi

>>91728304
you cant stop being a nazi, anon.
its like to be a rapist, it wont go away because you changed your shirt

>>91720371
Maybe the overuse of the trope is the problem here

>>91729492
It isn't because the people who are getting angry are acting like heel turns never happen with superheroes and are thus appalled and disgusted that they would ruin Captain America forever like this. When in actuality, it's just more of the same old shit.

>>91729458
There's a clear difference between an act and an ideology.

>>91729697
former nazi imply you acted as one defending it's ideology
stop apologizing for nazis

>>91729414
Still are IBM and Hugo Boss Nazis?

Mosr twitterfags and sjws dont read comics, a few torrent but not even 1 buys the actual stuff

>>91729768
they apologize for it from time to time.
hey, why dont you go ask them?

>>91729769
>twitterfags and sjws dont read comics
ironically, those are the ones who say captain is not a nazi and hydra cap is cool.
to me, if hydra cap was a way to criticize trump, it end doing the opposite, once people are actually defending a fascist captain america

>>91729768
soa fter the end of war all those nazis were forgiven, right, the ones from the camps?
after all, they were just doing their jobs

>>91728028
>they /allied/ themselves with nazis.
>Like that is an okay thing to do

When you stain your name/brand, there is no coming back from that. You think any of Hitler's surviving relatives, no matter how distant, will ever be able to use that name ever again?

>>91729933
were they working for the us government to give us a leg up on the reds? if not their fucked

>>91729900
>ironically, those are the ones who say captain is not a nazi and hydra cap is cool.
What? They're the people shitting their pants over this.

>>91730106
no, it is the other way around, dont know why

>>91729752
>former nazi imply you acted as one defending it's ideology
No? It means that you believed in that ideology at one time, but no longer do. Strucker, for example: >>91727295

That's why it's "former" nazi and not "current" nazi.

>>91730138
But... it's not. The fuck are you on about?

Damn I just went on tumblr and they are fucking furious about this.

>>91720371
>allegedly Magneto allying with them.

>Magneto
>Would make regular humans 2nd class citizens and possibly put them in camps if he could
>people still think just because he was in the holocaust makes him immune to being an asshole

STOP COMPARING HIM TO A NAZI I WATCHED THE MOVIES REEEEE

I don't think this HydraCap stuff is particularly good but I can't help but feel that this is just going to be another excuse to remove any kind of tension from the media we consume.

>>91720371
I just wish i would stop seeing 'the allies only won because of cosmic cube and this is the totally true way marvel canon was' reeeeeeeee.

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>>91720385

Eh. It's a good character diversion but not really character progression. We've seen so many heroes going evil I'm surprised people are really caught off guard. We all know this is going away when this wraps up.

It's like when Johnny Storm died and everyone accurately predicted he would be back for F4 #600. Funny thing is that Johnny didn't die when he was last seen but in the flashback showing what happened to him he had actually died multiple times and was stitched together with alien bugs. I have no idea how he wasn't scarred for life with all that.

>>91730016
So did Japan.

>>91727009

It actually kind of is. There's a lot of nuance and intricacy to Red Skull's brand of nihlism: He's fighting an unwinnable war because he can't let go of the last time he was ever happy or fulfilled, a period over 60 years ago. He latches on to a cause he doesn't even believe in solely to fuel his violent lashing out at a world that he's always hated.

That's a far cry from other nihlists like Thanos, Victor Zasz, or Owlman.

>>91729900
>ironically, those are the ones who say captain is not a nazi and hydra cap is cool.

No they weren't. They flipped their shit over it. Meanwhile /co/ was making silly edits.

>>91730666
So did Italy

>>91730194
you are tumbrl anon

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>>91728028
>>91725885
>they werent nazis

is this bait? I acknowledge they are nazis and still want them to win. I mean its just fucking fiction after all.

>>91720484
>implying Cap isn't liberal as fuck
>still getting triggered over fan art
lel

I'd be more worried if Captain America wasn't going to be over his Hydra phase in time for the next Avengers movie. The level to which Marvel is going all in on this angle is pretty amazing though.

>>91734790
>believing the Red Skull's lies
wew lad