Are they just Nazi by another name or is this just a misconception

>>91540094
Well obviously if you don't know then you're the casual.

I don't understand how casuals even think HYDRA is a Nazi organization even if they only watch the movies.

1. It's an ancient organization predating WW2
2. Red Skull explicitly says Hitler is shite and Hydra separated into their own division in Cap 1
3. Fucking Sitwell who's a spic is a high ranking member of the organization in Cap 2
4. At no point in the movies does the issue of white supremacy get brought on, Hydra clearly doesn't care about any of that

They're just your typical fascist organization that wants to rule the world, they're not Nazis. Do these people think that all authoritarians are automatically Nazis?

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>>91540094
Hydra was first conceived as a blatant Spectre rip-off (hence the logo looking like an octopus instead of, you know, a hydra). They were just a generic "take over the world" evil group. The Nazi association first came about when Baron Strucker was revealed as their leader, but that was done mostly because Strucker was Fury's archnemesis in the WWII comics so it was a dramatic way of making him relevant in the present, I don't believe it was out of a desire to turn them into Nazis.
Later retcons would establish that Hydra predates the Nazis by several centuries, if not millenia. All Strucker did was co-opt an existing organization that was for a while operating in the East and make it his own once he realized the Third Reich was a lost cause after a trip to the future in Doctor Doom's time machine.
Hydra's ideology is basically totalitarian fascism that values strength, but they aren't usually portrayed as racist, as long as you're loyal to Hydra and you're productive your race doesn't matter. They've had black, latino, asian, vampire, mutant and inhuman members over the years.
In other media, they're often turned into Cap's main enemies during WWII, which as you've pointed out is probably the main reason people associate it with nazis. Another reason for the association is that other media tends to have the Red Skull as the leader/founder of Hydra, which in the comics wasn't the case until very recently.

>>91540549
>1. It's an ancient organization predating WW2
To be fair, most casuals don't know that since most people don't watch Agents of SHIELD, just the movies.

>>91540094
It's a misconception that casuals have due to not being able to pay attention to movies and tv shows. Even in the MCU, they're not actually Nazis. People just heard "nazi science division" and jumped to conclusions while not paying attention to the movie/shows themselves.

In the comics, HYDRA is an ancient eastern organization originally created to protect the Earth that was corrupted and appropriated by Baron Strucker post-WWII into a fascist terror organization akin to James Bond's SPECTRE or G.I. Joe's Cobra.

In the MCU, if you count Agents of SHIELD as canon, they're an ancient cult that worships an inhuman death god that was later taken over and appropriated by the Red Skull during WWII as his personal army for world domination that just used the Nazis to get him funding and resources. If you don't count AoS as canon, then they're the Nazi Super-Science Division that then went rogue.

So the ONLY version of HYDRA that's "nazis" is the version in Captain America: First Avenger, discounting Winter Soldier and Agents of SHIELD. They're not Nazis in the comics and they're not Nazis in the wider MCU canon. Only in one movie are they associated with nazis, and in that same movie, it's made explicitly clear that their leader had 0 interest in nazi-ism and was just using Hitler for his own ends.

They're still EVIL, but they're not NAZIS.

Red Skull was explicitly introduced as a Nazi in the 40s.

Hydra was introduced in the 60s as a Nazi analogue. It also helped avoid printing actual swasticas into children's comics when the Comics Code started, because the Hydra symbol isn't inherently offensive.

There's a lot of revisionist history trying to claim Hydra and Nazis aren't linked, but the history says otherwise. They're basically Marvel talking about Nazis without swasticas.

Hydra might not itself be racist these days, but it's still very much authoritarian and fascist. Marvel wants to try and move away from the Nazi comparisons with Red Skull, but that's really difficult if not impossible. Hydra is inextricably linked to Nazism because Marvel originally in the 60s designed it to be the standin.

>>91540094
It's a misconception. The Nazi connection has been introduced and used at various times over the decades, but the earliest comics featuring HYDRA came in the context of Spy fiction and Cold-War paranoia. There was always a "Establish control of the world under a dictator", but in the beginning, it explicitly was one guy's project unrelated to the Nazis, then it became associated with Nazis, and now the lore is that it preceded Nazis by thousands of years.

>>91541449
>Red Skull was explicitly introduced as a Nazi in the 40s.
And Red Skull didn't get associated with Hydra until the movie.

>Hydra was introduced in the 60s as a Nazi analogue
No they weren't. They were introduced as a SPECTRE pastiche. Stop talking out of your ass, /tv/.

>>91540650
/thread

>>91541449
>Hydra was introduced in the 60s as a Nazi analogue.
Source? Not about the 60's, I know that, but where are you getting that the intention was they were a Nazi analogue?

>>91540549
>Do these people think that all authoritarians are automatically Nazis?

In America, yes, most people do think that.

>>91540549
>Do these people think that all authoritarians are automatically Nazis?
Commie Nazis, actually.

>>91540094
I understood that only Red Skull was kind of a Nazi..and I'm talking about the comics not the movies etc... Even in the Axis Storyline he build concentration camps for mutants..

>>91541740
Not kind of. Red Skull was literally a Nazi. Thing is, Red Skull was never affiliated with Hydra. They worked together in a handful of arcs, but Red Skull had NEVER led or been a member of Hydra until the movie. The first time Red Skull has ever been the leader of Hydra is in Spencer's current run where they even bring up this fact.

It's like how people claim that the Hulk was a core Avengers member. The Avengers officially formed with him as a member at the end of issue 1, then he left the team in issue 2. He was a member of the Avengers for all of half an issue, with a handful of guest appearances over the years. But since the movie came out, he's been treated as having always been a core Avenger member when that was never the case.

>>91540650
And Baron Strucker wasn't shown as the leader for quite a while. Originally, Hydra's leader and supposed founder was an American businessman called Arnold Brown, who died at the end of the original Hydra storyline in Strange Tales.

>>91541449
>Marvel wants to try and move away from the Nazi comparisons with Red Skull
Not really, the Red Skull and Hydra in the comics are usually separate things. The Red Skull is always portrayed like an evil racist bigot, need I post that one page from just last year that triggered /pol/ so hard?
The whole point of the recent Captain Hydra arc is that Steve doesn't view the Red Skull as truly representing Hydra, but as an evil racist trying to hijack the movement.

>>91541583
>And Red Skull didn't get associated with Hydra until the movie.
He was the head of the Las Vegas division in the 70s.

>>91542716
And that was literally it, one story nobody remembers is the only time he was in any way part of Hydra. I bet most people don't even know that the Red Skull actually stole leadership of that branch from Wilson Fisk and his son.
Funny how the Red Skull has actually been in charge of AIM several times over the years yet nobody claims that AIM are nazis.

They do not originate in the Nazi regime, but they are pretty inextricably tied to them afterwards.