>People get salty over the "if you kill him" logic.

>>91368996
People want villains dead, but they don't want the heroes actually portrayed as executioners. If Superman had killed Zod in a big explosion of heat vision clashing or something like that I doubt that scene would be controversial at all.

>>91369021
>they don't want the heroes actually portrayed as executioners
Very good point dog.

>>91369021
This.
Snyder portrayed the death of Zod as a bad thing; he used the same colors, the same soundtrack, and the same performance from Cavill (a big over the top Nooo) as when Jonathan Kent died.

If you want us to think the hero killing the bad guy is righteous you can't frame it as a tragedy.

>>91368996
Heroes should never kill

We don't need a murderous Superman either (Thank you Hack Snyder)

>>91368996
Isn't Superman supposed to be a light-hearted guy? Seems kinda weird to have him, of all people, snapping a guy's neck.

>>91369021
I'll add that killing is generally not something you need to experience before you decide it's not morally something you want to do.

But my biggest issue with this specific scene is that it didn't really feel like they sold the idea that he truly had no options left. Maybe if it had hit right emotionally no one would be discussing it at all.

>Superman does a genuinely heroic thing by stopping a homicidal member of his species from killing thousands of innocent people.
>KILLING IS BAD REEEE

Seriously do any of these "no kill no matter what" idiots even know of the saying "protect the innocent"?

>>91369099
>>91369046
>>91369021
So my take away from this:

It's dumb when people go "if you kill him, you'll be just like him!" but it's even dumber when the hero goes through with killing him, but it's presented either as a moment of evil or a moment of sadness.

>>91369172
I think the problem is that when we read comics heroes generally don't have to choose not to kill. The stories are just written so that they find another option.

>>91369021

I'd add to this how poorly Snyder did it in the context of the movie. He literally had Zod saying shit like "You'll have to kill me to stop me." and firing a heat vision beam at random innocents like it's the Goldfinger laser scene.

If you have confidence in your storytelling you don't need artificial plot stakes added to the story to make it "more legitimate."

It would have been one thing if Superman killed him in the heat of battle, but that heat vision thing was some of the most childish storytelling in the movie. A movie that never gave a real shit about the collateral damage of the fight scenes(for better or worse, I'm not making a value judgement) suddenly goes "Oh man look at these random fucks with no names, now the battle REALLY matters."

And then we follow up this intensely dramatic scene with dank jokes about how hot Superman is and him smiling about his new job, showing exactly zero of the so-called regret or emotional damage Snyder claimed it would inflict on him.

I don't really care about Superman killing if it's the right context, but like any story it depends on the execution and MoS handled it horribly. You could remove every shred of Superman from this movie and turn it into an OC donut steel and it's still be bad writing from a character standpoint.

>>91369231
i like superheroes finding a third option, showcases their superior lateral thinking

>>91369185
Your takeaway should be even simpler:
"Execution matters."
It doesn't matter what the character does so much as how they do it. That's why yesterday we had a snyderfag thread going HE SAVED THE WORLD SEE that couldn't wrap their heads around the fact that the movie framed it as a dour chore that wasn't actually a good thing.

>>91369124
But what if they're fighting a villain who will always kill no matter what?

>>91369332
executing him is something for the court to decide

if he is to die, then it should be a choice made by a representative of the people, and carried out with their consent

>>91369361
>the country he's in does not support the death penalty
>They decide to put him in prison
>he gets out five minutes later

>>91369251
It's definitely always more interesting. But also the heroes are meta-wise enough to know that killing isn't permanent anyway in their universe.

>>91369390
thats the governments fault, not the superheroes

>>91369332
Real heroes don't kill.

They always find a way.

>>91369332
Then the writer can have someone fix the phantom zone projector and send him back. This is not real life, my friend.

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>>91369185
EXECUTION MATTER.

Your work as a writter and director is to make the scene work, there is no "formula", only stupid people and corporate souless executives think that there is a formula instead of EXECUTION.

Samurai Jack for example, dealed with it way better, I would argue that it had a "jaded character becoming desiluded with his mission" better than Batman too.


It is even more dumber because it is never brought up again on BvS, Clark never mentions Zod at any moment.

I remember Snyder saying that it would be the origin of his "no kill rule"....just to it not affect at all Superman characterization on BvS, Supes doesnt even mention Zod at any moment or the fact that he has a no kill rule.

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>>91368996

>>91369426

I'd gladly break the law if it's to protect/help the innocent over one worthless murderer or rapist.

>>91369437

So if there's a rabid animal in the area, the "hero" should just leave it be or attempt to capture it?

>>91369467
there is always another way, superheroes never resign themselves to "choose the lesser evil", obviously you cant not kill forever, but when you do kill it takes the form of a 2-parter where you lament that you have no right and it strenghtens your resolve not to do it again, and keep that promise for at least 10 years when a new writer messes up your character

but the point is that when faced between 2 choices, you make a third

As far as I'm concerned it's fine if a superhero intentionally murders someone if their name isn't Superman, Batman, or Spider-Man. Those three consistently seem to have explicit no-kill rules while others like Aquaman, Captain America, or Wonder Woman are willing to do it if it's absolutely necessary.

And then you have the Punisher.

>>91369426
If that's the case, why is there no revolt after the 75th time this happens?

>>91369524
the people decided it wasnt a big issue

one wonders if there is lead in their water supply

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>>91369511
>rabid animal

I dont think that most heroes are vegetarian, so killing an animal is not much of an issue.

This said "herores should never kill" is dumb, but Superman works way better as the "take a third option" guy anyway, in the same way, Batman iis more dramatic with self imposed rules. If you WANT to make these kill, you better do a good job with it like >>91369457


>>91369524
Capeshit by the big 2 is stupid, their worldbuilding ignores logic and natural progression, and even natural human behavior.

There are no really good in universe explanations, apart from the fact that they are literaly in univere capeshit comic books bound to the cliches of the genre.

>>91368996

The people who are befuddled by why people are annoyed Superman killed Zod the way he did are the same people that go to McDonald's, order a triple quarter pounder with bacon and cheese, a supersize fry, a supersize shamrock shake, a large McFlurry, a ten piece chicken nugget, but also a supersize DIET coke because "they're trying to watch their calories"

>>91369447
>Supes doesnt even mention Zod at any moment or the fact that he has a no kill rule.

Because it was a bullshit excuse to appease fan backlash made outside the movie, like "There is an actual real Mandarin, guys. We're totally gonna bring it up sometime!"

>>91370077
Or even "We're hinting to the Leader guys!"

>>91369648
Fuck you buddy! I got so used to diet sodas over the years I actually prefer the taste now. But I still like huge hamburgers.

But yeah, the problem is that Superman had the upper hand when he killed him. It shoudl've been the other way around: No one complains when a hero kills an enemy in a split second, kill-or-be-killed moment where it can go either way. Zod was menacing a family but was subdued, so even if it isn't quite like so, in most minds it looks like Superman is executing a prisoner. Which is 100% non-heroic, Optimus.

How many heroes are there that are only heroes because it makes it easier to kill people? Like a Murderer who only kills bad guys so he doesn't get arrested?

>>91368996
Both.
Different people complain about different things regarding different characters.

Also execution and context matter.

>>91370150
That's what's called an anti-hero, something that was created to subvert the very archetype that Superman embodies.

>>91368996
The part where Superman is supposed to care about regular citizens. The entire film flip-flops on whether he cares about people or not and Pa Kent isn't helping matters any either. Really, Him killing or not killing Zod isn't the problem, it's just a symptom of some bad story-telling.

>>91368996
people are usually one person

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>>91369447
>I remember Snyder saying that it would be the origin of his "no kill rule"
I really don't understand that reasoning, considering the movie still portrays it as the right (if painful) thing to do.

>>91369231
>I think the problem is that when we read comics heroes generally don't have to choose not to kill.

everybody knows that shit like that is more of a cop-out than good writting

>Superman kills in the first movie
>Dies in second
Fucking retards. We could have such a great moments in DCEU. Superman who is forced to kill after all heroic staff he has done could be awesome. See the brightest and inspirational hero do that. And also his death which give less feels to the audience than a death of any side character in quippy marvel.

>>91369247
>A movie that never gave a real shit about the collateral damage of the fight scenes(for better or worse, I'm not making a value judgement) suddenly goes "Oh man look at these random fucks with no names, now the battle REALLY matters."

Superman was saving inocents during all the action scenes that he was involved in, that was the point of the scene that you seemed to miss, doing whatever it takes to protect the inocent

the heat vision was just to represent how Zod would not stop, it wasn't about that specific family

>>91369021
/thread

Viewers want justice to be naturally dispensed, so the hero doesn't end up with any blood on his hands, himself.

It's why endings where "hero decides to let villain live and walk away, but villain goes for the backstab and dies either through retaliation or some other phenomenon" endings are so popular.

The thing is that I feel like they tried to frame it as if it was outside of the norm for his morality, but I don't think that works when you're not selling it specifically as the exception in a large canvass of stories for this version of him or a non-main universe specifically meant to contrast the main version.

Maybe they were counting on the fact that this generally isn't his first movie so the metatext there would be that we're supposed to compare it to his movies and TV shows where he doesn't kill, but I don't think it works if he's a rookie. Needs to at least be known to the people in-universe as well to feel really intentional. Because a hero killing when it's outside the norm for them CAN be interesting but a hero who has mainly just done good deeds and never been in a big battle failing himself just doesn't feel good.

>>91369648
I like food analogies and all but could you explain that one?

>>91369572
>Capeshit by the big 2 is stupid, their worldbuilding ignores logic and natural progression, and even natural human behavior.
then killing Zod was the right thing to do

>>91370355
You could argue that it builds on previous adaptations of Superman being heroic, but since the movie also has this character's origin story and life up onto that point, it doesn't work,

>>91370328
If anything, killing the bad guy is the cop-out.

>>91370391
Not necessarily, movies don't have to have revolving door prisons like the comics do.

Besides we know that in this universe Kryptonians come back from death, so it falls into that dumb comics cliché too.
It's like there isn't much argument for killing the Joker as a means to stop him when he came back from the dead half a dozen times.

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>>91368996
I've resigned myself to Snyder's gritty Injustice-style universe. My "S" of seeing a bright uplifting Justice League are dashed, I've come to accept Batman as "the guy with the murder car".
Now I just want the idiotic plotting and wtf dialogue to be replaced by competent writing.
I can even accept the oversaturated visuals, God help me.

>>91370579
It's all but confirmed Snyder is out after JL. He wants to do Ayn Rand next.

Rumors are they want the guy who did First Class to soft reboot Superman. That's also why the Flash script keeps being rewritten.

Then Aquaman is far removed from Snyder's world since it's at the bottom of the ocean, so it should be safe.

>>91370579
You wanted an uplifting Justice League?

If you want uplifting, quippy shit then go watch your Marvel shit. The Marvel movies are nice to watch, but do not address anything on how Humanity would act if these super powered people started showing up.

It wasn't until Civil War that they even addressed people dying. I mean, FFS, make it a little more real and show how Humanity would act.

That is where the DC movies get it right. I actually prefer the DC movies over most Marvel movies. There have only been four good marvel movies, that being Winter Solder, GotG, Doctor Strange and the original Iron Man. I'll even say five good ones as the first Avengers was enjoyable. Everything else was shit.

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>>91370391
I was talking about comics. There is no reason for movies to copy the worst parts of Marvel/DC.

Hellboy does recorrent villains too...but they do it right.

TELL

>>91369124
Superman has killed before in the comics. So....if you don't want a murderous Superman, he already exists and Snyder did not create him.

>>91370704
No one wants to be reminded of the inherent pessimism of humanity while watching a superhero movie. But also you can avoid that while not going full quips like a cookie cutter Marvel movie.

As much as WB is trying to emulate Nolan's darkness they seem to have missed the point.

>>91369046
>>91369021

Killing in the heat of a battle is not an execution

>>91368996
I did not give a fuck. also I don't think the "if you kill him" fits here since those are usually for when the antagonist is at the mercy of the protagonist or protagonist sets out with the goal to kill, there are no small kids lives on the line
>>91369021
but who should be the executioner when the target is out of the states reach?

How many people did batman murder in batman vs superman?

>>91369124
>Heroes should never kill
Why not? If heroes should never kill that writers should never write an antagonist that needs killing

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>>91370704
>You wanted an uplifting Justice League?

Setting aside your incredible issues with movies based on comics you didn't like to begin with, yes.
I didn't want the Superman who decided who lived and died.
I didn't want Assault Tank Batman.
I didn't want "hack down all the normies" Wonder Woman.
I sure as fuck don't look forward to terrible CGI Cyborg or Rob Zombie Aquaman.

I asked too much of this world.

Far too early to be exploring this part of Superman. Establish his morals and then have him kill. You can do an entire movie exploring his morals, and why he has them. DC threw this in to have a "moment" like they do in all their films. They waste so much good stuff by throwing them into movies when they don't need to.

>>91370761
I don't think it needs to be a reminder of the pessimism of Humanity. But, these are heroes trying to save Humanity and I think we need to at least know how the "normies" stand because they are an intricate part of the story.

I guess I am just to anal about how I look at the caped movies. I forever hate Joss Whedon for what he did to an amazing villain prospect with Ultron. Avengers 2 is, by far, the worst movie to date in my book. I'd rather watch the new Fantastic Four movie before that.

I guess I am just tired of all the brightness of the Marvel CU and want more gritty stuff like we see in the DC Universe and the Netflix Marvel stuff.

>>91369172
I was kind of unhappy that he just let his race die. There is a universe where faora infiltrated his school when he was younger and made his dick hard so he allowed them to have colony

>>91370806
That guy who had the Batmobile dropped on his head might have lived.
We see the tires coming down on his head, but we don't see his brains scatter across the street.

>>91369447
I want to cream Hastur

>>91370822
Then you should go watch the cartoon or go watch the Marvel movies for uplifting.

I'll agree with you on Cyborg...he looks like total shit. I am actually looking forward to Momoa as Aquaman and they way they portray Batman in the movie is more along the lines as how they portray him in the current comics with the Justice League and bigger threats like Darkseid and what not.

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>>91370867
>Avengers 2 is, by far, the worst movie to date in my book. I'd rather watch the new Fantastic Four movie before that.

Here you go.

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>>91370822
>Rob Zombie Aquaman.

This is the general public's idea of Aquaman

Though if they were recycling GOT actors like all cape stuff does these days, they should have gotten Jaime Lannister

>>91370704
Thanks but I already Worm. DC is no better at showing how people react to Superheroes existing then Marvel is. Hell Marvel feels more real to me because life just continued on after people learned about Supers.

>>91369361
He is not a police man so its really up to him how he wishes to do it.
>>91369426
Is not that kind of like shifting blame.
>>91369390
see atomic skull in Superman vs The Elite

>>91370867
I feel like the normies in the DCEU are not really acting like how humanity should in these kinds of stories though. They should be glad they're being saved, but they're basically an antagonist. That's going too far with it. We know humans in real life would do that but it's not fun to watch. At least in the Nolan movies they were still good people. That's what the DCEU should be trying to emulate and just going anti-MCU like you're trying to argue.

And Netflix Marvel is trash, my man, and pretty much just as bad as their movies. You might just have blinders on in that you like everything of a specific tone instead of being more critical about things like storytelling, structure, and pacing.

There were thousand os problems with Man of Steal, Superman killing Zod is not was not one of them

>b-but, he is man of murder!

killin someone is not considered a murder when you do it to protect yours own life or someone else, he saved a mother and his childby doing it, probably the whole world

>superman should always find a way!

The happy go lucky Superman who lives in the silver age, if you put him in amore realistic setting then he will face situations where there is no other way

>>91370822
>I didn't want the Superman who decided who lived and died

By not killing Zod he would be deciding that the woman he was about to kill should die

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>>91370939
Here was the general public's idea of Black Panther.

You can makes something great out of a character while staying true to what it is.
WB hasn't improved upon the DC Universe by flinching away from the classic elements of it.

>>91370375
The audience is fine with the hero killing so long as it's done in the right context. This wasn't the right context.

>>91370986
>and just going anti-MCU like you're trying to argue.

this should have been "instead of", I should edit more tbqh

>>91368996
Hasn't Superman killed Zod in almost every incarnation? He crushed his fucking hands in Superman 2 for fucks sake

>>91371028
>This wasn't the right context
>super strong unstopable alien says he will kill every human on Earth procedes to shot his laser eyes on innocent bystanders

How?

>>91369247

You know, I don't understand you guys.

I think it's pretty obvious that Zod was trying to commit suicide by cop. Remember, his entire race had just been wiped out by Superman. He was literally going "Fucking kill me, you shithead. You've taken everything else that's given my life meaning, you race traitor. You want to save these humans? Then kill me and LIVE WITH IT, you quisling."

>>91368996
Murder should only be done as a last resort. Having Batman kill random people is idiotic but having him keep the joker alive so he could kill again is even more idiotic.

>>91371084
Trust me anon, none of those dudes are dead. Batman simply put them to sleep

>>91370375
Do you honestly think the most overused cliche in the history of hero vs villain would be a better ending to that conflict?

>>91371069
>After they demolish a fucking city like a minute before hand
It shouldn't have been portrayed as this thing Superman was forced into. If he had killed Zod because he knew he couldn't be held down by earthly prisons and wanted to destroy humanity I think I would be okay with it. Instead it's potrayed as Superman going back on his morals and ideals.

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>>91371043
Byrne Superman, the same one that made porn, kissed Loli Lana, and generally lived out all of Byrne's major fetishes killed Zod once.

Superman II did not end with Zod's death, he got a hand broke for being a dick.
The scene with Zod and co (and Luthor) being turned over to the authorities got lost on the cutting room floor (it still exists on the internet) with the weird reshoots after Donner dropped out of Superman II.
No, Superman doesn't make a habit out of killing Zod.

>>91370858
This. Unless you establish who supes is, how he acts, how he solves problems, what his views are, how the world sees him and so on, you can't make an extreme case of him killing. It freaking needs buildup.

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>>91371135
>>91371135
How the FUCK does he go back on his morals? He fucking defending people from shitty space murderhobos

>>91371148
I'm pretty sure he got pushed down a ravine after getting his hands crushed dude

>>91371084
The Joker can work if he's not some insane child-murdering lunatic. And people in the Batman universe need to be able to be redeemed. You can't have them all be villains forever. Otherwise Batman looks like a fool. Him holding out for the Joker to really get help can be a reason to not kill him.

>>91371073

>I think it's pretty obvious that Zod was trying to commit suicide by cop

Because the intent is irrelevant if the execution is poor.

I don't care if that was the point Snyder was trying to make because even if that was true the dialogue was still terrible and the scenario to make Superman do it was blatantly artificial.

I'm getting tired of repeating this to Snyder fans over and over again. The intent doesn't matter. The execution matters. I don't care if you had a great idea for a story in your head, it's what you actually put to paper that has to be judged.

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>>91371073
>He was literally going "Fucking kill me, you shithead. You've taken everything else that's given my life meaning, you race traitor. You want to save these humans? Then kill me and LIVE WITH IT, you quisling."
Yes and it's garbage writing, particularly in a Superman movie that advertised itself in trailers as Hopeful.
It's right up there with "Imma destroy the whole dimension, fuck you guys!" Doomachev in Fant4stic.

>>91371135

Can I ask, what possible better reason could there be to kill Zod?

Superman literally says "Zod, please don't make me do this." It's basically that scene from Miracleman after Kid Miracleman levels London, and Miracleman's forced to kill him.

>>91370986
>DCEU
its reasonable because its the first impact, heroes were not around for years and doing good. sups came out because he had a fight with his people and a city got caught in the crossfire, yes they got saved but no one feels like they got saved.

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>>91371179
I'm pretty sure I own both cuts and all the extras of Superman II in the box set, and he got slammed against a wall and went down a slide after getting his hands hurt.

>>91371228
Batman was around.

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>>91371179
Why didn't he just fly up then? It's not like crushing his hands make him unable to fly.

>>91371129
No, I'm just stating a fact.

>>91371228
There should be some apprehension but they go too far with it and make it weird enough that it's unpleasant. Yes humanity is weird but no one wants to watch that.

>>91370704
>Humanity will act in the most cynical, negative, pessimistic, self destructive, and downright stupid ways possible 1000% of the time. That's the only way to be realistic.
That's you. That's how you sound.

>>91371242
In the scene "take em away boys", Clark and Lois talk to an officer from the Arctic Patrol (lel) as Luthor tries to smooth talk his way out of jail one last time. Zod and his two cronies are led in cuffs into the big arctic cat.

It was never intended by either director to imply that Superman and Lois murdered the Krypto convicts after they were depowered and harmless.

>>91371242
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUORL-bvwA0

This looks a lot like an implied death, unless he shows up again in some cut of the movie that I never saw

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>>91371262
>Why didn't he just fly up then? It's not like crushing his hands make him unable to fly.

Holy Shit.
You haven't even SEEN the movie, you just shitpost about it on 4chan.

>>91371319
>>91371327
Oh, apparently that scene was added to later airings or something

>>91370986
>At least in the Nolan movies they were still good people.
This. If Snyder were doing the Dark Knight that final act with the boats would've ended with them both getting blown up.

>>91371327
>This looks a lot like an implied death
This is rich coming from the same guys with the "those guys in the crushed SUV might have lived" defending BvS.
Fuck off.

>>91368996
People are salty over the whole killing Zod thing because it wasn't established that he had a no kill policy in the movie.
Superman kills him and has a break down.
In the middle of the city that Zod just ruined and probably still hearing the screams of dozens trapped in rubble.
We don't get many lessons from Pa Kent, except that sometimes it's okay to watch children die.
So Superman's break down is extremely out of place for a man that gets petty revenge by crucifying a truck, breaks into and steals from a military dig site, and laser blasting the last Kryptonian genesis chamber after sending the last of his species into an inescapable dimension.

Also he totally made out with Lois while bathing in the ashes of a ruined city.

>>91371374

>This. If Snyder were doing the Dark Knight that final act with the boats would've ended with them both getting blown up.

It would have ended with Batman killing the Joker, the prisoners refusing to do it and THEN the boats blow up.

Snyder fanboys then defend it as brave and bold storytelling because we all know dime-store cynicism is the best writing ever, while somehow arguing the showing the citizens/prisoners not doing still qualifies as the most inspirational writing in all of cape film history.

>>91371255
no he was not. you are mistaking him for Nolan bat, in bat v sups you see that many see him as myth

>>91371429
this

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>>91371457
>in bat v sups you see that many see him as myth

Where? Is this the special headcanon cut you dreamed about after seeing the movie?
No one treated Batman as a rumor or a myth in the movie.

>>91371069
>How?
Several ways.
First, as has been said already, the aesthetics of the scene present the act of killing Zod to not be righteous, but rather tragic.
Second, there weren't enough visual cues that Clark was fully out of options; he didn't look hurt or tired, so you get a bunch of people going "Couldn't he do X?"
Third, Snyder's official death toll after Smallville, the World Engine, and Clark and Zod's fight was 5000 people dead. After that, a stock footage family of extras feels contrived. The ultimatum presented to the audience is "5000 was bad, but 5004? THAT'S unacceptable". It's hamfisted in the worst possible way.
Fourth, Clark didn't have much by way of building up his resistance to killing Zod in the first place. His character isn't as deep as a lot of people defending the movie insists it is, certainly not enough to justify that big "swerve" (I say because it isn't really much of one). If killing his is first action out of the gate it's not so much a big shocking moment as it's an establishment of a new normal.
Fifth, the movie's lack of denouement further stymies the impact the scene could've had. The fan nomenclature is "mood whiplash". We go from being told to be horrified and sad to a time skip filled with warmth and jokes with nothing in between.

And yes, we get the intent of the scene. We get Zod wanted to die and he was never gonna stop. That shit wasn't subtle. It's just that it comes with all that other baggage that makes it utterly unpalatable.

>>91371511
Waller even has a number to reach him.

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>>91370704
>muh """"realism""""
We're talking about adpating a franchise spearheaded by
>an Alien who just happens to have exact human appearance (including balding patterns and genitals)
>a guy who dresses as a bat and has managed to survive 20+ years of vigilante work
>a chick from a mythological Island that apparently hadn't been cartographed in the 20th century
Fuck off.

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>>91371530
You could write a Spider-Man story where Pete "has no other choice" than to hold Otto's head underwater until he drowns.

Congrats, you have just written a shitty Spider-Man story that the kids won't like.

Which is the main criticism of Man of Steel, it's a shitty interpretation of Superman. Funny that Routh Superman can be accepted as such, but with their "extended universe" riding on Cavill, anything can be rationalized.

>>91371228
This, but also the meta-textual irony that comes out of it is hilarious. It's okay for the people in the story to hate this Superman because defenders say "realistically people with superpowers should be fear and suspicion and not be trusted". But if the audience of the movie goes "Maybe this Superman isn't a hero." then the defenders will, in the very next breath, accuse them of being shills or not watching closely enough.

Fucking pick one.

>>91371511
the blind old guy sure did

>>91371600

To be fair, it can be deeply frustrating at times. It's like, the Green Goblin has done an immense amount of shit to Peter Parker. I don't think anyone would complain if Spiderman was like "Oh, no. Norman's different. Norman has to fucking die."

Same for the Superior Spider-man. After basically murdering Peter and forcing him to fuck a midget, I really wouldn't blame Peter for killing 'Spider-Ock'.

>>91370867
>Avengers 2 is, by far, the worst movie to date in my book.
You need to watch more movies.

Also what you're asking for is the FOX-men.

>>91371644

>It's like, the Green Goblin has done an immense amount of shit to Peter Parker

But they managed to kill the Green Goblin in the Death of Gwen Stacy story in a way that's both dramatically satisfying and doesn't involve Spidey killing him.

>>91371701

The issue is that the motherfucker keeps coming back. But I suppose that's more the cyclical nature of comics.

(As a side-note, I think the Spiderman 2 Doctor Octopus is the best iteration of the character ever. He's barely even a villain.)

>>91371451
Nolan's Batman was bittersweet. Bruce did end up killing Two-Face to save the kid. But in that circumstance, it wasn't made to be about the killing. It was about saving the boy. Much better done than the Snyder neck snap scene. The Dark Knight was a masterpiece.

>>91371843

>Nolan's Batman was bittersweet. Bruce did end up killing Two-Face to save the kid.

And Nolan had created a scene and atmosphere that justified the situation. He showed Harvey as being beyond saving and pushed Batman into a corner he couldn't escape from without taking Harvey's life. And it was at least connected to characters we cared about.

And he didn't have Harvey say :THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN STOP ME IS IF YOU KILL ME" and this is Nolan we're talking about, a man who loved writing dialogue that just directly explains character motivation directly to the audience. Even for him that would have been too much.

Compare and contrast lads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re3VEiETqIE

vs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_93l5q7AWDM

>>91371929
>a man who loved writing dialogue that just directly explains character motivation directly to the audience.
That man is David Goyer, the same fellow who wrote "MARTHA" and "He's a Hot-head".

Talented directors can make good movies despite Goyer, music video directors cannot.

>>91372003

>That man is David Goyer, the same fellow who wrote "MARTHA" and "He's a Hot-head".

Wasn't TDK the only Nolanbats movie he didn't have any involvement with?

And Nolan does it in Inception too. I love a lot of his movies, but the man has never written a subtle line of dialogue in his life.

>>91371970
I can never get past the fact that despite half his face being reduced to charcoal, the other side of Dent's face doesn't even have a hint of swelling or even redness.

That CG is sub-Green Lanter-tier.
So much for Nolan "realism".

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>>91372003
>>91372042

>>91372042
Oddly, he isn't listed for story credits on the IMDB page for the movie, but the movie is listed under Goyer's writing credits.

Make of that what you will.

>>91372003
Chris Terrio wrote MARTHA

>>91372042
He's credited for "story" for both TDK and TDKR, but for both story and screenplay in BB and MoS, while BvS is "written by" David Goyer.
Make of that what you will.

>>91372112
Any idiot can edit IMDB. It just takes longer to show up unlike wikis.

Man of Steel's moment was dumb because it expected you to give a shit about a family when there were probably thousands dead in the fight with Zod, and Zod was never shown to be anything other than a genocidal maniac who would kill anyone who wasn't Kryptonian. The stakes are lame, and the consequences for both outcomes are lame. It was a lame scene.

>>91372119
Chris Terrio came in after the fact and tightened up the writing a bit, he did NOT write that damn movie.

>>91371600
>Congrats, you have just written a shitty Spider-Man story that the kids won't like.

Adults would like it as long as it's well done, Pete pulls no punches when shit gets real

Superman is off limits though

>>91372186
>Adults would like it as long as it's well done, Pete pulls no punches when shit gets real

Hey congrats, you've made the umpteenth money-losing superhero movie.

>>91371022
They haven't been relevant since the 60s just like Aquaman.

>>91368996
different types of autism.

>>91372067

>story credit

Ah alright.

>>91372112
>>91372148

If he has a "story credit" that usually means he wrote an earlier draft that was re-written by the final team. WGA credits are weird, there's no actual hard and fast rules for script credits so you have to play it by ear for each script.

>>91372050

>So much for Nolan "realism".

Nolan still had ninjas and clown anarchists. It's not "real-world" realism, it's toning down aspects of the character to fit the story.

>>91372155

>he did NOT write that damn movie.

He very clearly wrote the entire Holly Hunter/Washington/Africa story-line and the Lois Lane bullet stuff, the political aspects had zero involvement with the rest of the story and smacked of heavy re-writes coming in to add another subplot.

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>it will never be revealed that the DCEU are the alternate universe Justice League
>they'll never be replaced

>>91372230
He was legit trying to beat Norman to death in the first movie

>>91372248
>he guys everything about the DCEU is terrible on purpose

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>>91372233
You only reinforce my point.
When people hear Aquaman, they think of Superfriends Useless Aquaman. When they hear Black Panther(s), they think of angry negroes in berets.

Marvel went with African Kangz anyway and it turned out great.
I'm not even sure what DC is going with, with drunken samoan beardo surfbro. He's like the Poochy character from the Simpsons, some terrible thing made to "appeal to a demographic".

>>91370741
Superman has been written by loads of people over decades because it's a corporation-owned character. He's done it all.
Yet if you put together all the writers and storylines that had him kill people and the ones that didn't, you can get a feeling why most people think it's out of place on an introduction movie.

>>91372257
How can you tell the difference between "knock him unconscious" and "beat him to death"?
I'm pretty sure he stopped hitting him when he gave up.

>>91368996
>Kills thousands of people in the fight against Zod that he was winning
>Family is there for no reason
>Zod tries to kill family for no reason
>Hundred different ways to stop Zod
>Snaps Zod's neck and cries about it
>Makes out with Lois instead of saving all the people he killed

I get that you need a reason for Batman to hate Superman, but it all just seemed kinda unnecessary

There's something about these DC movies, that when looked at objectively they're pretty smart and a decent adaptation of the characters

But you don't get that feeling from watching the movies

>>91372365
>looked at objectively

If Objectively means through Snyder's eyes, maybe.

>>91372321

> you can get a feeling why most people think it's out of place on an introduction movie

It would at least be one thing if they did anything with it, had it inform his character in any way. Nope.

I still can't believe they based the anti-Superman storyline in BvS some random Afdrican attack instead of the fucking hellscape of Metropolis that was left after MoS. These movies can't even use their own idiotic universe well.

>>91371069
>How?
Superman's life needs to be on the line the moment the killing takes place. People root for the underdog instinctively in situations and Zod was pinned down and immobilised at the time, even if he was being a dick and about to kill some randos.
In fiction, if you want your character to remain a hero, there needs to be honour in the kill, even if the kill prevents someone else getting killed.

>>91372365
>that when looked at objectively they're pretty smart
Is this a way of saying "through autism-goggles"?

Because like all Goyer films, they rely on ridiculous plot contrivances, coincidences, and characters behaving completely irrationally.

I don't follow how that is "smart" writing.

>>91371084
What's baffling is that you can have Batman brutally kick a hundred dudes' asses in a scene, and if you don't explicitly show them dying it's alright because we know Batman doesn't kill. You get your fix of violence and can leave the character morally intact. The only thing Zack mneeded to do is not show explicit murder and he couldn't even do that.

>>91372394
But anon, it gives Superman justification for the no kill rule.
Nevermind that the movie portrayed killing Zod as the reasonable (if tragic) thing to do, that doesn't matter.

:^)

>>91372464
>you need to murder someone to learn killing is wrong

I am really worried by people who say this

>>91372365
>___ does _____ for no reason
Literally the entire character.
>Zod needs the codex, for some reason and risks his entire coup to get it
And no, there is no reason why genesis chambers wouldn't work without it or there would be no sense sending the scout ship to Eart
>Jor-el must have the codex for some reason to put into his natural born son, even though it never is of any use to him in any way
>Zod has to terraform the planet for some reason, despite the whole ordeal of the atmosphere taking minutes to shake off
>Pa Kent tells Clark to watch him get killed for no reason even though it's not like people in a tornado are the most reliable testimony if they swore Clark ran "too fast"
>Pa Kent goes back for the dog for no reason

To this day I still don't know what the codex is or what role it's supposed to play in anything.

>>91372308
Prepare for movie synergy except with blond hair

Which is just 90s Aquaman again with tattoos and alcohol

>>91372503
Pa Kent might one of the worst-written characters in a comic book film like ever.

>>91372448

>The only thing Zack mneeded to do is not show explicit murder and he couldn't even do that.

Don't forget his mercantile prison system he seemed to set up with lifers to murder the people he's branded like he's fucking Walter White. Because clearly it there's one thing the prisoners in Gotham would do it's kill people for the guy who most likely sent them to prison.

>Hey Riddler, I have another job for your Uncle Jack

>>91372487
The no-kill rule is more "killing is wrong no matter the circumstances", which is a harder rule than most people have regarding killing which tends to be closer to "killing is wrong, but can be used as a last resort when defending innocents".

>>91372543
He's like an anti Uncle Ben who can only give shitty advice.

>>91372503

>To this day I still don't know what the codex is or what role it's supposed to play in anything.

The Codex is maybe the worst MacGuffin in comic book history. It has zero narrative function, is never actually properly explained within the context of the movie, undercuts the themes of the movie and makes Jor El a fucking retard.

For as dumb as the Infinity Gems can get, I at least understand why they're in the film and the narrative function they serve. The Codex is so goddamn worthless in the story.

>>91372547
Lex did that m8

>>91372658

Then

>why did he brand people

>why was that not a subplot explored in the movie where batman investigates this

Even if the UC explains it, that doesn't stop it from being moronic.,

Why would Batman send the worst criminals to jail (with the brand) when he openly kills people? It's like he punishes the low-level goons and rewards the worst ones for being more evil.
The Joker must've been in minimum security all of the five minutes he remained imprisoned.

>>91372607
>Peter, with great power comes great
>possibility
>Think about it, Peter.
>If someone was a jerk to you, you could just crucify their truck.
>And they couldn't do shit to you.

>>91372938

>The Joker must've been in minimum security all of the five minutes he remained imprisoned.

>implying he didn't freak out all the moms of the prison guard with how DAMAGED he was and they just let him go

>>91369457
>MXYZPTLK
how do you pronounce this?

>>91373021
MXYZPTLK

>>91373021
Mix-is-spit-lick

>>91368996
>/co/ are a bunch of hapless idiots that don't know what they want.

Color me surprised.

>>91372685
>>why did he brand people


Zorro. It was cathartic for him

>>91372938
He didnt put special care to try to make the people he has to stop survive, he didnt seek their deaths.

He doesnt murder anyone, the brandedguys were easy to stop

>>91373162
>he didnt seek their deaths
When you install mini-guns in your car, anon, you're seeking somebody's death.

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>>91372963
>this is our Joker

why

>>91373436
>I must dedicate my entire operation to breaking my girlfriend out of prison
>If I don't, who will I get to sleep with random gangsters?

>>91369131
It was necessary given the circumstance.

>>91373614
Not really. Unless by "the circumstance" you mean "the way the script had been written to that point".
A scene in which Superman compromises his ideals is really uncalled for in a story in which he is called "an ideal for humanity to strive towards".
He's not an ideal. He's just a regular dude, only with Superpowers. That's Hancock, not Superman.

>>91373021
As it's written.

>>91373614
The problem is that the circumstance was written to as justification rather than an organic progression of events. Rather than go "How should we end this story" they said "We want to end with Superman taking a life. Shut up Nolan! It'll totally work if we paint ourselves into a corner!"

>>91370077
Digits

>>91368996

>comic book fans are mad batman won't kill the joker
>get mad when superman kills zod

what is wrong with you people

>>91369457
That was a really dumb ending.
>Oh boo hoo I killed a multi-dimensional monster, so now I'm going to remove my powers, leaving the world to defend itself from threats that it could only previously handle thanks to Superman.
It's selfish and retarded

>>91368996
"If you kill him, you will be just like him"
No, you won't. That doesn't mean you won't be worse for having killed him.
Murdervigilanteman is worse than Shinycapeman, but Murdervigilanteman is not as bad as Genocidalvillain.