Which type of villain do you prefer? One who's just simply

>>91366215
The second one is generally more interesting, though it's frequently done better by anime far more often compared to western cartoons.

villains who love being evil and don't give a fuck > villains who try with all their heart but are too incompetent to ultimately pull their plans off so they seem les evil in comparison > villains who are not explicitely evil but are selfish > everything else

>>91366215
I like whatever Doof was.
>We learn why he became evil
>He Was evil
>The nhe learned he don't have to be evil to be good at something
> Joins Good team

>>91366215
Ones who's motives are unsympathetic but human.

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none of the above

>>91366215
For me the sweet spot would be someone whose "fall" makes sense, or who has something seductive, charismatic or persuasive to them, while at the same time still being very much evil. Basically, the dark side of the heroes or the audience come to life.

But really what makes a good villain isn't so much the motives as the overall persona, along with how richly they interact with the rest of the cast. The worst thing a villain can be is forgettable.

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>>91366234
You must lead a boring life

>>91366215
The ones who don't know they are evil.

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>>91366215

>>91366215
Ones that are simply evil. Not every villain needs to be complex

>>91366215
massive assholes that has no redemption arcs but is willing to cooperate with heroes against bigger threats

I usually like villains or antagonists that are genuinely evil, but actually love what they do and find joy and fun in it.

>>91366215
One that makes me want the villian to win and not the hero

>>91366951
Ganon is outdated in this list and is now High Tier.

>>91366215

None. I prefer stories with no overt / obvious villain, or even with no villain at all.

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>>91366215
The curvy, singing type.

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>>91367126

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>>91367126
ftfy

>>91366215
but Skeletor has Evil-lyn, oh wait she wants to overthrow him right

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>>91366215
first one is simple fun, second one is interesting

sometimes I prefer the former, because they are simply just fun

>>91366215
Whatever works the best in the story.

>>91366215
it honestly depends on the setting they're in and just how the show works. the second is fine but sometimes having a guy be evil just for the sake of it can work even better

One who understands what differentiates a supervillain from a regular villain.

>>91366234
That's an extremely /co/ opinion to have, which doesn't surprise me given the poor quality of the 'sympathetic villains' you're used to being exposed to. I really don't get the fetish you guys have for the gaudily evil though, as they tend to be far and away the most boring, with the exception of badguys who are not really guilty of anything because of some convenient excuse and whom the viewer is hence made to feel sorry for.

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I always liked the fun ones than the serious ones

>>91367984
Jesus, give them a room

>>91366215

I like both types as long as they are pulled well

My favorite is a simple "take over the world" whose willing to have as much blood lust to get it done

>>91366951

It's 2017

Ganondorf as a whole has gained a lot of merits for his reasons

depends on the context of the show and which ever type fits better

The only time you'll get a bad villain is if they are never doing anything other than being a poster that doesn't even get fought and just leaves

Im really bitter about Nadine in Uncharted 4

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>>91368011
no rooms between them now

best version of Skeletor I saw/read so far

>>91366227
Actually it's usually so predictable and thin in anime that it's clearly just a contrivance to sell a few more goddamn manga chapters.
Which isn't to say that anime DOESN'T have "noble villains", but that usually the villains nobility is purely informative (as if one sad thing that happened to them suddenly excuses a literal lifetime of worse things they did because of it) or "noble" only in the most warped and roundabout sense that literally only makes sense to an anime character or an autistic person.

Most of Japan's noble villains when they happen aren't even really villains and don't do anything villainous or even outright evil; they're merely antagonists serving their boss loyalty, perhaps with the occasional silent complaint over how nasty their boss is while they get on with fighting the hero.

>>91367504
Presentation?

The kind of monster that fills me with dread.
Can be either a sympathetic villain like, say, Trinity Killer (yes, he may be a monster but he is somewhat sympathetic) or just purest form of evil imaginable like Johan Liebert or Killer BOB.

Best villains are the ones in opposition to the hero (duh), but are sympathetic and relatable in their actions, the type that if the story were about them, the good guy would be a regrettable obstacle instead of being an asshole with an ax to grind.

>>91367835
>gaudily evil
>tend to be far and away the most boring, with the exception of badguys who are not really guilty of anything because of some convenient excuse and whom the viewer is hence made to feel sorry for.
That's loads of shitty implications right there.

>>91366215
A serious fucking villain in a comedy cartoon. That always drives the point home.

>>91368348
Define "serious" because if you mean Bill Cipher, I disagree. Fuck. Shapeshifter would've been a far better and more threatening main villain

>>91366215
The former. The latter is obnoxious, self-rightous and more ofthen than not, whiny.

>>91367835
>I really don't get the fetish you guys have for the gaudily evil though

Because they make evil look fun, as opposed to the snore fest "woe is me" that 99% of sympathetic villains (manga/anime included) tend to be.

Lawful evil is the best.

prove me wrong.

>>91368056

>Im really bitter about Nadine in Uncharted 4

What? Her arc made perfect sense, she wasn't obsessed with finding the ships like Rafe was and once she realised it was a sunk cost and her boy-toy had lost his fucking marbles it was time to back out. Her need to prove she could run her PMC didn't override her survival instinct, it was clear she was the more level-headed person of the two.

That Max Landis video was beyond retarded. It didn't have anything to do with her being a woman, hell the main villain in 3 was a woman and she got one of the worst deaths in the franchise.

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>>91366215
ones that are evil as fuck but with elegance and class

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>>91368525
Yep.

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>>91368589
I was going to agree with you, but in all actuality, it should be the princess

What do you call a villain who acts like a normal person (well, when they're not killing/hurting anyone) but occasionally a mask slips and you get a subtle peek of just how disturbing what is inside their minds?

>>91368667
Psychopath, I guess

>>91368599

Zurg is the perfect example. He's not hammy because he's evil - he's an over the top guy who just happens to want to conquer the universe, and is actually above average at being evil.

Him being exactly as petty as Buzz imagines him to be is just the cherry on top.

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>>91366215
first type lets you go ham withh all sorts of over-the-top villainy, and unleash your most awesome and ridiculous plots

and depends on the tone, but for sheer entertainment number 1 for me

>>91366215
I'm a Bukowski cocksucker so I generally prefer villains who have their own believable goals and their own personal conflicts. But I'm not saying that every other type is bad. It really depends on the story.

For instance, I love villain songs too, but you go find a villain today who happens to have inner conflict AND sing about it (I think it's more common for operas and late 20th century musicals, but not for animation, that's why Hellfire stands out).

Fun simple villains work when enough effort is put into making them entertaining (otherwise they just end up boring), while complicated principle-driven villains work when enough effort is put into making them sympathetic (otherwise they just end up underdeveloped).

Disney, for instance, used the former type for more than 50 years. But recently they've been trying to move to the second type, but that doesn't always end up being well done. If anything, their newer villains lack both in charm and in sympathy. Maybe this will lead to some better villains in the future, or maybe Disney was better off with what they were doing for many years already.

Then there are cases like Bill Cipher where the creator tries to go both ways but just can't do it. Need I remind you that Bill was originally going to actually be sympathetic, he was supposed to have escaped from his home 2D realm destroying it in the process and becoming insane from the realization of what 3D is. But Hirsch didn't have time to flesh that out so he just went with the fun type and put effort into it instead.

Also, I don't think Dinklage in pic related quite understands what a "complicated character" is

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>>91368770
4chan ate the pic

>>91368770
>Need I remind you that Bill was originally going to actually be sympathetic, he was supposed to have escaped from his home 2D realm destroying it in the process and becoming insane from the realization of what 3D is. But Hirsch didn't have time to flesh that out so he just went with the fun type and put effort into it instead.

He was the dude from Flatland?

The best villains are those who end up sexual for seemingly no reason whatsoever, most often due to their casting, and it makes you wonder whether you're suppposed to want to fuck them or if the creators were really that clueless.

>>91368770
What about villains who are more or less complicated, have their own beliefs and principles yet are not sympathetic in any way?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLCL6OYbSTw

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I liked how she was depicted in the live action

>>91366215
>Which type of villain do you prefer
Lawful Evil gets me hard every single time.

There was an episode of the short-lived horror series American Gothic where the sheriff (aka Satan) tortured and punished a wife beater. Not because the guy did something wrong, but because evil was done without permission.

>>91368162
>(as if one sad thing that happened to them suddenly excuses a literal lifetime of worse things they did because of it)


That's seldom my experience, and is basically my worst case scenario for how to handle a villain. I absolutely hate it when this does happen, thought I feel like /co/ frequently reads into anything that portrays a character sympathetically with the assumption that you are then supposed to reverse your sympathy and feel bad for them, even when it's possible to have this happen and still acknowledge how guilty a character is.

One style I particularly like is when the villain's moral worldview is such that what they do is clearly bad, but seen by them as something like what most people consider equivalent to eating a cow or swatting a fly, and they otherwise can get on with living and having an arbitrarily complex personality because they think of their actions as just an excusable aspect of their mode of living that they fully realize is bad.

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>>91366215
Either can be compelling. It's all a question of the writing.

>>91369230

>One style I particularly like is when the villain's moral worldview is such that what they do is clearly bad, but seen by them as something like what most people consider equivalent to eating a cow or swatting a fly, and they otherwise can get on with living and having an arbitrarily complex personality because they think of their actions as just an excusable aspect of their mode of living that they fully realize is bad.

That sort of sounds like The Conspiracy from The X-Files.

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>>91369230

>>91369230
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvjHkhsDV-Y

>>91369269

I'd be happy if Jemaine spent the rest of his career as a VA.

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Say what you want about the film itself, but this guy was a great villain. His goal was to destroy every human and his reason was that he knew a greater evil was headed towards Earth and the human race simply is not strong enough to defend Earth. He was literally just trying to protect his home planet.

Tl;dr: Ultron did nothing wrong.

>>91369343
Quiptron is shit just like all of Whedon's villains.
>b-but he's based on Stark's personality
Well, that was your fucking mistake. Should've waited and made Pym responsible. That way Ultron would've been a childish asshole, yet not a clown that's hard to take seriously.

>>91368033
Only in one timeline though.

>>91369343
>His goal was to destroy every human and his reason was that he knew a greater evil was headed towards Earth and the human race simply is not strong enough to defend Earth.
That might sound good on paper, but the execution was piss-poor. The movie gave little attention to this particular thing and more to the things that made Ultron look stupid to begin with
>humanity is flawed so I'll make a bunch of flawed easily destructible robots, that'll show them imperfect humans
>I also have access to internet and giant amounts of data spread information on the web that'll make people doubt Avengers/make some powerful governments or individuals interested in hunting Avengers down/divide Avengers/hinder my foes in any way, I'll still go with "tons of easily destructible robots" plan
>I also apparently have control over the Avengers Tower, but I'm not gonna, like, cut their electricity off or anything to make my creator and most of the team powerless against me, I'll STILL go with "tons of easily destructible robots" plan
>I'm so much better than humans I'm not even gonna tell them my evil plan *le witty joke* but then I'm actually gonna tell it at the end of the movie because cliche mocking doesn't really stop me from applying that exact cliche

>>91370044
>amounts data spread information
amounts of data, but I'm not gonna spread information*

The only problem with villains these days is that they are written last, or are just "there"

Villains now just aren't relevant to anything, they don't come around to communicate their ideas or influence the actions of others. It's just the main character and his bullshit following the bread crumbs to the final fight and it's during the final fight where this awkward argument ensues. Nobody Fucking knows who this villain is anymore. It's boring. We want a villain more active and frequently coming in contact with the MC

Honestly, you don't need a main villain, you can have multiple smaller villains. It worked for aqua teen hunger force. Just have that instead.

>>91366215
Depends on the story. Mostly, I don't want inconsistency. Don't give the villain some sort of positive intent when they go around kicking puppies anyways or I'm supposed to like the asshole hero beating them. Don't make the villain a bland one-note stereotype and then have the hero repeatedly attempt and fail to redeem them.

>>91366234
t. 14 year old

>>91370644
Sometimes when creators try to make a villain "more personal" they still fuck it up but since people are used to shit villains they praise that villain like he's the best thing since sliced bread, even if he's kind of shit and progressively becomes more of a joke with each appearance.

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I'm a Solidus supporter.

>>91366215
Most of them have their place where they're best. I think I can enjoy most if not all kinds at some level.
Though, having said that, I'm a big fan of villains that are clever assholes that trick people into helping them, even if they're trying to kill the villain. I also really like Yoshikage Kira, bad guy who just wants to be left alone and enjoy his murderous habit in peace.

>>91366215
It all depends on execution

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>>91366215
Personally, if you're gonna make a wholly evil character, then make it some sort of mythical beast or some eldritch deity.
A person, while capable of great evil, can't be totally evil, because it's just not humanly possible to do so, and if then, it'll be just really impractical.
If a villain had all of the seven sins, then he wouldn't be hard to beat, at all. If you're going to the "Pure Evil" route, then really go in there, make her the incarnation of evil, just get crazy with it.

>>91368691
Well, sounds like it.
I kind of wish this kind of villain was used only if the writer understands the disorder well.
>tfw Ted Bundy probably laughed in the back of his head when he was speaking about how sorry he is for the relatives of his victims
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ9jqFi2TvU
It's such a chilling thought to me for some reason. I wish it was done in fiction more often.

>>91373396
This.

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I really like villains who are motivated by simple self-preservation.

I enjoy Star Wars sith shenanigans since it's just a huge power trip that's fueled by doing bad things that make you feel bad in exchange for more power. I got big hopes for my boy Kylo, but he needs to be 80% sadder n madder

>>91366215
Villains as characters. A secondary protagonist that clashes with the main protag.

Doesn't matter what they're motivation, backstory or level of morality they have.

They just need to actually have a motivation and some sort of drive or reason that we see influencing their decisions, some sort of background even if just hinted at, consistent and established relationships to the characters around them, believable character development (either for the best or worse) and basically anything that would make an interesting protagonist.

Oh and some sort of thematic relevance to the story.

>>91373396
I get what you mean but I think there'd be something interesting about a very human character who'd consistently make worse and more harmful choices in the pursuit of some goal, even if they knew on some level it was wrong.

It adds a relatable complexity while still maintaining the horror that someone would consciously choose do such things.

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>>91378327
I'm not saying you shouldn't make a character who goes more evil as the story progresses, just that a human (Or something close to that.) can't and shouldn't be "Pure Evil", as it would make him very easy to beat, and that such a thing is reserved for beings who are all powerful and "higher" can truly be "Pure Evil", instead of the "Impure Evil" man has.

>>91366215
Depends on the execution, both can be great if done right.