why of the literally hundreds of characters they could pick from

>>91328279
Because they wanted another girl
>Can't have two blacks so no Vixen
>Can't have Fire or Ice without the other
>Huntress is just female Batman

That just leaves Hawkgirl and maybe Black Canary
And they could do alien shit with Hawkgirl

>>91328279
She was like Hawkman, but a woman.

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Hawkman/Hawkgirl were longstanding members of the League. Also lady bits.

>>91328279
The trifecta: another female, a lesser known character they could characterize without any problems, and a character they could use as a super secret spy alien

They actually have specifically talked about it on the DVD commentary, the other choices were Black Canary and Zatanna because they wanted to keep to the pre-Crisis roster as much as possible and for reasons I can't remember Hawkgirl was picked.

>>91328279
Cuz she fiiine broh

>>91330602
But why did they hate Hawkman so much?

>>91330685
Because he fucked up their character development with Hawkgirl.

>Alien fiancee, she was born and raised on Thanagar
>Lover with Green Lantern

Both these make no sense if you try to integrate the traditional "lovers through the ages" shit Hawkman and Hawkgirl have had.

>>91330685
Hawkman was considered as well. This isn't the commentary I'm talking about but it's something:

https://youtu.be/204R82x_Vkw?t=142

The Hawkman stuff was all done later in JLU, and they had a problem there because the Hawkgirl betrayal and being GL's love interest had been planned from the very beginning and they had come up with this whole backstory for her that Hawkman didn't really fit into until they rekajiggered it.

>>91330757
>"lovers through the ages"
That didn't really apply to Katar and Shayera

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>>91328438

Zatanna.

Seriously I get they need another girl but they chose one that's just a watered down version of Wonder Women.

They both just hit hard except HG hits less hard, they both fly and they're both warrior women cultures. Add Z and you get a funner counter balance and frankly the league needed more than just Wally to be the funny character. I love the guy but there's only so much one character out of 7 can do.

>>91328525
>I'll just reverse the polarity

Was JLU Hawkman the worst rendition of the character of all time? How do you get that character so wrong? I suppose Injustice is also a contender.

Also JLU Hawkgirl was awful as well. She was an abrasive, traitorous adulterer. She should've been replaced with Zatanna after she sold the Earth out to the Thanagarians.

>>91328279
Well whatever the reason, it worked out really well for the show. She was a heavy hitter and became the warrior woman so they didn't have to play up that part of Wonder Woman as much.

>>91331190
Except they instead chose to instead turn Diana into Batman's wannabe girlfriend. Seriously she was a non entity.

>>91331001
>She was an abrasive, traitorous adulterer

How does that make her a bad character? She was a fuckload more interesting than the rest of the roster.

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>>91330856
They tossed her on the main roster of pic related and it worked perfectly so I started thinking the same thing for JL at the time

>Zee and Wondy going through a difficult ice level
>Zatanna: So...havin' fun?
>Wonder Woman: Don't... force me... to hurt you...

>>91331001
She had a lot of shit going on. I thought she was one of the only memorable versions of Hawkgirl

>>91331418
She was going along with the plan until the 11th hour before backing out. I didn't buy her change of heart. And putting her with Dr Fate seemed like a way to pretend she was important while waiting for the clock to run out on the series. The only thing more contrived that I can thing of was Martian Manhunter's Chinese wife.

>>91331506

Yeah I'm sure you've read a lot of Hawkwoman material. Also Identity Crisis Dr. Light was "memorable"... that doesn't mean it was a good rendition of the character.

>>91331554
More infamous than anything else. It makes those old Teen Titans episodes weird to watch.

>>91331554
Well yeah he was memorable but in a bad way. I thought JLU Hawkgirl was good.

>>91331612

I disagree. She was not a very good person at all. As a character she was a disgrace to both Shayera and Shiera. She didn't deserve to be on the Justice League.

Not to mention McDuffie and friends had to shit all over Hawkman as make him as pathetic as they could in order to trump up her romance with Jon Stewart.

>>91331480
I wish this didn't emulate like shit.

>>91330757
>Both these make no sense if you try to integrate the traditional "lovers through the ages" shit Hawkman and Hawkgirl have had.
it's entirely possible to have Katar and Shayera without that stuff

Since they were using Thanagarian Shayera they should have just gone with Katar, they didn't need to mash up the two and shoehorn John Stewart into their background

>>91331001
>Was JLU Hawkman the worst rendition of the character of all time? How do you get that character so wrong? I suppose Injustice is also a contender.
Every media adaptation of him is pretty shitty

being Hawkman is suffering

>>91328438
>>Can't have two blacks so no Vixen

Das racist

>>Can't have Fire or Ice without the other

In seriousness, why not?
I get that they generally are treated as a package deal, but there's no real reason NOT to just use one.

I mean, hell, when JLU came out, Fire got an episode with Flash, while Ice crowd filled IIRC. So they obviously had no problem just using one or the other.

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>tfw I'm the only person who likes Hawk Girl
>tfw everyone hates her

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>>91333155

>>91333683
Hi Fronk

>>91332277
Hawkman is shit. As is Hawkgirl

>>91328279
>>91328525

Yeah and the Hawk's are greatly underrepresented in the DC animated shows. They're always just regulated to the background. Hell even in this show, they turned Cater Hall into a cuckold.

The Hawks need more respect.

>>91333155
>implying
I loved Hawkgirl. She was my favourite character in JL, and episodes centered on her are my favourite.

>>91330856
Zatanna would have made much more sense than Hawkgirl, given she would have introduced the magic elements. Having another alien originating character when they already had 3 was reduntant.

>>91328279
They wanted Hawkman but wanted another female character.

>>91333819
YOU'RE shit anon.

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So which do you prefer, /co/?

Grey jumpsuit alien gunslinging space cop Hawks, or shirtless mace swinging magic archeology learnin' original hawks?

No you can't pick that weird native american one from v3.

>>91331001
Hawkman's backstory is so fucked up that every rendition just throws it all away or ignores it completely.

I think another reason they picked hawkgirl is that they could make hawkgirl brownish, enough to pass for a white hispanic, or mediteranian, for the toys and the racial accountants.

She's also got some visibility from the superfriends version.

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>>91335962
Shirtless mace swinging space cop hawks aka the best hawks.

>>91328279

I'm guessing they had the idea of the Thanagar invasion in their minds when brainstorming stuff, so they put her in so that there would be a connection rather than just having them pop out of nowhere.

>>91335962
>v3 hawkman
The run so bad it spoiled all future versions of Hawkman and retroactively tainted all previous ones. Has there been a more horrible stain on a character?

>>91336150
Was it really that bad? It only ran for a few dozen issues, and I don't think it's ever been mentioned again. I didn't even know it existed until recently.

>>91328279
Hawks are traditionally long term traditional JLA members. It was really down to Aquaman and Hawkman for that last spot and they can substitute Hawkgirl to have another female member

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>>91332277
Best live action Hawkman was on Smallville in the episode written by Johns. But the weird thing is Dr. Fate is written like Thom Kallor off his meds.

https://youtu.be/jRwNImVxI_k
https://youtu.be/vEqVVTMNbk8
https://youtu.be/oH1tFOlK6kQ
https://youtu.be/35FYfgXuquo
https://youtu.be/HHLbFp1_2gM
https://youtu.be/f6auuZ-xOrM
https://youtu.be/cid-lxYdKsU
https://youtu.be/lwR6CY2Sl4g

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>>91336233
It's the run that intersected with the Zero Hour event. The merging, the hawk god, nth metal coming from a hawk angel chained in hell. 90% of the weird stuff that people complain about came from this period.

>>91336696
Might as well, post this too.
https://youtu.be/5htQXMrRE8g

>>91336743
also Hawkman was half Cherokee, because he didn't have enough mythology heaped on him yet

>>91328279
Because she's iconic?

>>91330856
Zana is too dull, with the sdrawkcab gniklat gimmick.

>>91335994

Johns' Hawkman rendition and origin, which came only a few short years before JLU was written, was perfectly fine. They have no excuse for what they did to the character.

>>91333155
There is another.

Winged heroes are awesome.

>>91336743

I like weird stuff.

>>91337807
Weirdest thing is that Johns co-wrote the episode where we find out Stewart has been cucking Hawkman through every lifetime.

I wonder if it was his way of shitting on the HawkLantern pairing, and why Stewart was just a stoic marine with a occasional architecture reference in his GL run.

>>91333155
wtf, I love hawkgirl now

>>91335994
Funnily enough all of the Thangarians were voiced by Hispanic actors

>>91335962

>shirtless mace swinging magic archeology learnin' original hawks?

Some version of this. I love Hawkman but I don't like the Thangarian stuff, although I loved what JLU did with them. There are just too many aliens in DC and I'd like more focus on Earth and humanity and human history.

That's the Hawkman I want to write. (I bring this up in every Hawkman thread so you other anon's probably heard me ramble about this before.)

>>91336743

I need to read this and do more research on it though.

>>91338103

Okay since we're talking about it I also want to bring back JLU for a third season like Young Justice is being brought back but also like Samurai Jack and making it more geared towards adults too. Give a show that actually adapts story lines from the comics more closely and give readers the stuff they want to see.

Uncucking Hawkman is one of the goals for it. And I haven't read much of it so forgive me if this sounds dumb, but doing this through the Rann-Thanagar War. We haven't seen Rann in JLU continuity so it would be a good adventure for Hawkman and Sheriya to go on with Adam Strange. John comes with them but basically Hawkman and Hawkgirl would have their moment there and Hawkgirl sees his heroism and his love for her more clearly.

John being reincarnated can be retconned as Shadow Thief just fucking with Carter's mind.

>>91339493
My dude, if JLU ever got a season 3, it would only cement the John/Hawkgirl OTP. Don't you remember their future son? Also, the Rann/Thanagar war was why Thanagar invaded in the first place on JL.

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>>91330685

>>91336743
I just think it's weird that someone looked at the already weird mythos differences of golden age and silver age Hawkman, the awkward merging of both characters into one and thought "you know what this needs? A THIRD interpretation injected into this character".

>>91330856
I loved DCAU Hawkgirl but it does boggle my mind as to why they didn't just use Zatanna.

Actually, it kinda boggles my mind even more why they only used her in ONE episode in JLU and it was kind of a huge waste of her character. I'll never get how Dini loves the character but writes her so boringly.

>>91337775

And what gimmick does Hawkgirl have?

>Im angry and hit things.

She doesn't even bring anything to table power wise. Hell honestly pretty much the bulk of the team was some flavor of hit shit.

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>>91339778
>I'll never get how Dini loves the character but writes her so boringly.

You have to understand that a writer who loves a character can very often be worse than someone who hates them.

A writer who loves them will never acknowledge their flaws and will depower others to make them useful. They'll make everything revolve around them in some fashion and no one, even characters whoa re better suited for a situation will get their time to shine.

So basically they'd become the way Timm writes Batman

>>91328279
She's not just a different Wonder Woman. She's more aggressive. Honestly, she's one of the best designed characters. Everything about her just clicks just right.

>>91340304

>She's not just a different Wonder Woman. She's more aggressive.

She's a more aggressive, weaker Wonder Woman with none of Diana's strength of character.

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>>91339578

> Also, the Rann/Thanagar war was why Thanagar invaded in the first place on JL.

Yeah that's what I was thinking. But they had the lizard people from Rann. No Adam Strange or zeta beams and all of that.

>My dude, if JLU ever got a season 3, it would only cement the John/Hawkgirl OTP.

Well the big bad and major plot line for Season 3 is Crises on Infinite Earths so the Anti-Monitor comes and completely wrecks their timeline/universe. So there is a chance to just wipe the son out of existence and chalk it up to the Anti-Monitor battle changing the time line.

Barry comes back in the first episode with the Monitor and the Harbinger because he's been searching for his own timeline. (Maybe kind of referencing undoing the Flash Point movie and the Nu52 movie verse.)

So there is a lot of time/memory changing.

>>91340104
We should strive for someone who loves a series, but is not partial to any character, positively or negatively.

>>91328279

because of the anti-magic mace

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>>91333155
Aresia was a evil version of Fury, who coincidentally was Hawks related.

>>91340104
>So basically they'd become the way Timm writes Batman
Seriously. I enjoy DCAU Batman but it was at just the point at which Batgod could become annoying if they went just a bit further in that direction.

But that's not the reason why Dini's Zatanna is boring. He never really does anything really cool with her.

>>91328279

They chose Hawkgirl because they needed a female hero that fit these criterea:

>Has to have some visibility. Can't pick someone too obscure. Lots of female heroes are obscure except for women like Canary, Vixen, and Zatanna.
>Has to be a heroine that can take a laser blast or take a punch from a villain with super strength and not immediately die. Batman will be hogging all the writing that involves "we legitimize having a non powered/human level durability person on the team with heavy hitters like Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, etc."
>Can't be too tied to an existing team. Starfire, Raven, and Miss Martian for instance are synonymous with the Teen Titans.
>Can't be a genderswap of someone on the main team. No Supergirl, no Batgirl.

Most heroines lack that combination of durability and visibility. Sure, Zatanna can conjure magic shields, but she's not bullet proof. Hawkgirl is very league exclusive, can hit hard and be hit, is her own person if you don't put Hawkman into the team, and even if you don't know her very well you've seen some Hawkperson in a comic or on a cover.

>>91340486

Ahhh I didn't know this. That's pretty cool though.

>>91340563

This anon is completely right.

One more thing: they wanted someone who contrasted visually with Wonder Woman. Hawkgirl wears a mask, she has those big wings, she carries a weapon. DIana has no mask or cape, she typically has no weapon unless you count the lasso. If the team was going to have two girls it needed to make sure the second one didn't feel like Wonder Woman Lite.

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>>91340468

well no, that's retarded and impossible. Of course you're going to love a character, and it's that love that makes you WANT to write them well and do awesome things with them. Grant Morrison LOVES Superman and he wrote an amazing Superman story.

What we need are writers who know how to be writers first and fanboys second. Writers who know how to balance a team, writers who know how to do proper stories. You can do an amazing Batman story where he despite having no powers is the one to pull through the crisis and save the day in the end. The problem comes when writers don't know how to make their favorites stand out so they brush them off to the side or make them get taken out just so their favorite hero can look good so you get stories where Superman get's mind controlled or goes completely fuck nuts rage crazy and needs Batman to stop him from killing Darkseid or some stupid shit like that

You play up your heroes strengths. Batman is a detective have the story be about him trying to solve some mystery and when he gets to the villains lair it's up to him to stop him because even if he called the league there's just not enough time because they're fighting robots on pluto

>>91342319
That's literally what I meant, retard.

>>91342379

Well it's not what you said, moron.

What was the name of her sexy drawn sister in Swamp Thing Vol 2 58?

>>91342401
I'm not your moron, buddy.

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>>91333155
>taking the opinion of a few retards seriously
Literally no one gave a shit about Hawkgirl before the JL TV Series and still don't after it ended so the whole NOT MUH argument doesn't really hold water is especially when the TV series is the only time she received anything resembling charactetization. This is almost as stupid as people complaining about the interpretations in the Teen Titans cartoon.

>>91339493
Fuck no, if JLU were to ever return nobody would want fucking Hawkman to be an important player. The worst part of season 2 was the complete and utter lack of The Question, aside from one brief scene on the phone with Huntress. Question was by far the best character on the show and we deserve more of him. He's like Alex Jones as a superhero. It's such a shame that a great charcter like him will never be seen again, because comic Question is nothing like that

I laughed laudly with that Fairy Oddparents episode where the wolrd was full of superheroes and Trixie was a Wonder Woman's rip-off and everyone loved her while Veronica was Hawkgirl and nobody gave a shit about her. When the villains take the heroes's superpowers, Hawkgirl remain the same because she wasn't "super"

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>>91342563
Keela Roo.

>>91328279

>>91328438
>Black Canary

has a history and tradition with the original run of Justice League of America from the 1960s - however, I personally found her overwhelming but since I do think they more or less made Hawkgirl work, ditto John Stewart to a lesser extent, they could have figured out something.

>>91340563
I do agree that this Anon is probably correct, plus they probably already intended to do the betrayal, alien spy thing and she works for that, although they could have gone with Jonn being mind controlled by white martians (or some such) and roughly adapted the Morrison story from JLA.

>>91345404
Black Canary was considered because of her being retconned into the post-Crisis JLA's origin, but ultimately not picked because her lack of powers kind of like what >>91340563
said.

However I also wonder if Paul Levitz might have not allowed them like how he didn't allow them to use the JSA in Legends, but that was because he felt the pitch for the episode was disrespectful.

Little known fact: Levitz took a VERY heavy hand in policing this show, particularly the characters. In the commentary they are constantly mentioning Levitz not allowing them to use characters, changing improper characterization in scripts, suggesting characters to use, and so on.

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>Hawkgirl?

>>91342319
The irony in your post is that All-Star Superman intentionally had nothing to do with the modern Superman and was a fanboy story about pre-Wiesinger Supes.

Morrison's modern Superman is what's shown in his JLA and Action Comics, which is not all that different from how he is in JLU, except that JLU Superman was intentionally written as more disillusioned after the finale to Superman TAS, one of the few examples of character development across multiple shows.

>>91344692

We can have both Anon. I love the Question too and in this third season I'm writing he takes on a bigger role investigating what's going on with the multiverse and that someone is picking off the original Justice League roster and the Question is the first person to notice it. (Spoiler: it's the Justice Lords Unlimited).

We can have a cool question and a bad-ass Hawkman in the same show.

>>91332386
>Das racist

Its the way it works though. Why have another black person when you could have a latina ginger?

>>91340066

Hawkgirl

>superhuman strength & durability
>flight
>electrified nth metal mace; can also disrupt magical and other types of energy
>superior combatant & tactician
>superior vision

>Zatanna

>affects reality by talking backwards, thus vulnerable to strips of cloth/duct tape
>stage magician
>wears fishnets

>>91339778
Zatanna is criminally underrepresented in just about every medium outside of one video game from like 2003

>>91333155
I liked Hawkgirl. I think she had an interesting dynamic with the rest of the Justice League and I generally just enjoy female bruiser characters. Her romance with Green Lantern was handled relatively well for a kids show and she underwent some of the most well-executed character development in the series (which was, ironically, because she wasn't a big name who had to be played in a certain way like Superman or Batman)

I don't really see what anyone else had against her that can't be boiled down to "I hate aggressive/assertive women" or "not muh x".

>>91346686
I like how you look at those two lists and think the top one has better stuff on it.

>>91346686
Zatanma sounds better

Zatanna is too OP

To stop her from constantly ending fights solo they'd need to do what they did with Superman. Just have her lose all the time.
Or Flash/90s cartoon Jean Grey where she just trips and knocks herself out

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>>91331001
>She was an abrasive, traitorous adulterer.
That actually makes her pretty complex and enhances the first two seasons of JL when you rewatch it, but if you want your heroes with no flaws, yeah, I guess she's "awful".

>>91350271

1. That's not Hawkwoman. By that argument, the writers should've made Superman racist or something in order to make him "complex and flawed." Idiot.

2. Like I said, after revealing the kind of shitty "hero" she is, she should not have been let back onto the Justice League. Someone like Zatanna who actually covers an area the JL is weak in, wouldn't cause copious amounts of drama between teammates, and wouldn't sell out their planet to an invading alien force, should have been recruited in her stead.

3. Her story actively shit all over the entire idea behind Hawkman and Hawkgirl. Not to mention the worst rendition of Hawkman of all time. All for some soap opera-tier relationship drama with Dwayne McDuffie's self-insert.

>>91350680
>1. That's not Hawkwoman. By that argument, the writers should've made Superman racist or something in order to make him "complex and flawed." Idiot.
Stopped right there. You're literally going "not muh" on the Hawks of all things.

Cry more, faggot.

>>91345302

I miss when we could have just a pair of suspenders as a costume and call it a night

>>91346686
>>superhuman strength & durability

We got 4 of those

>>flight

Three of those, also THGILF! TROPELET!

>>electrified nth metal mace; can also disrupt magical and other types of energy

Which wasn't used for that all that often anyways and mostly just hit things.

>>superior combatant & tactician

But not as superior as other teammates

>>superior vision

You're just grasping at hairs now. Also we got three of those.

>>91350774

>I have no argument

I'm glad we settled that.

>>91328279
Because Timm had nobody to ship Jon with.

>>91350680
>The story was good but it was "not muh"
If someone wrote a really good racist Superman story, that was extremely compelling then yes, they could do that.

>>91352565
It's kinda weird Supes isn't a racist considering he's white trash from Kansas. Instead of joining the Klan like many Kansas people did back on the 40s, Superman helped the FBI to jailed KKK members in real life.

>>91352565

Phew. Good thing you'll never write a Superman comic.

>Hawk thread
Post it.

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>>91352542

You mean besides Katma Tui. Whom he married.

>>91352716

No it's not you fucking imbecile. Being from certain states doesn't make you a racist automatically. People are individuals.

>>91352542
The ship was all McDuffie's who also hates Hawkman because he's a white conservative space cop.

>>91328438
>>Can't have two blacks so no Vixen
They had her later in JLU.

>>91352716

By that same logic it's weird that John Stewart isn't a gang-banging hoodrat.

>>91353016
Because they significantly increased the number of all characters, including whites. McDuffie and everyone else on shows is familiar with the unease people feel when blacks make up too much of a cast.
>And before I knew it, I had broken what I call the Rule of Three. And that rule is, in popular entertainment, if there are three black people in it, it is a black product. You can have two black guys, although it’s a stretch. If you have three, it’s a black show.

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>>91353173
I don't know man, I think the team could have used a few more minorities

>>91353619
They got to him in the Ultimen episode.

>>91328279
I loved her. She was great.

>>91350680
Wow you're not very bright

>>91345302
That belt looks like the goddamn Thundercats logo.

>>91333155
Hawkgirl is the fucking best and anyone who says otherwise is a butt hurt Hakwman shit posting.

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>>91355695
Dunno, seems like DCAU Hawkgirl is always ranked somewhere around or even below Kendra among comic readers.

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>>91356892
More specifically I mean Hawkgirl/Hawkwoman rankings.

>>91349477
Or have a roll of duct tape handy, or jam something in her mouth.

>>91356986
Yeah, but saying that is like saying "just take off his ring" is a legitimate strategy against a Green Lantern. You're fighting a literal reality warper. It shouldn't be that simple.

Besides, let's be honest. Power levels vary as the plot demands. Superman is the obvious example, but the Flash is just as ridiculous. You can't fight a guy that can move and think at lightspeed.