LE DIVERSITY IS KILLING LE COMI- >Okay some things need to

>>91321874
>STUFF THAT IS DIFFICULT TO REPLICATE AND IMPOSSIBLE TO PLAN:

>1. Unexpected audiences. We are at a point in history when the role of religion is at a tremendous inflection point. What I didn’t realize was that the anxieties felt by young Muslims are also felt by young Mormons, evangelicals, orthodox Jews, and others. A h-u-g-e reason Ms Marvel has struck the chord it has is because it deals with the role of traditionalist faith in the context of social justice, and there was–apparently–an untapped audience of people from a wide variety of faith backgrounds who were eager for a story like this. Nobody could have predicted or planned for that. That’s being in the right place at the right time with the right story burning a hole in your pocket. Plenty of other stuff I’ve written and liked has fallen with a huge thud. That’s the norm. Exceptions are great when they happen, but hard to plan.

>2. The paradox of low expectations. The bar was set pretty low for Ms Marvel, but because of Ms Marvel’s success, that bar got set much higher for similar books that came later.

>>91321883
>STUFF THAT IS ENTIRELY AVOIDABLE:

>1. This is a personal opinion, but IMO launching a legacy character by killing off or humiliating the original character sets the legacy character up for failure. Who wants a legacy if the legacy is shitty?

>2. Diversity as a form of performative guilt doesn’t work. Let’s scrap the word diversity entirely and replace it with authenticity and realism. This is not a new world. This is *the world.*

>3. Never try to be the next whoever. Be the first and only you. People smell BS a mile away.

>4. The direct market and the book market have diverged. Never the twain shall meet. We need to accept this and move on, and market accordingly.

>5. Not for nothing, but there is a direct correlation between the quote unquote “diverse” Big 2 properties that have done well (Luke Cage, Black Panther, Ms Marvel, Batgirl) and properties that have A STRONG SENSE OF PLACE. It’s not “diversity” that draws those elusive untapped audiences, it’s *particularity.* This is a vital distinction nobody seems to make. This goes back to authenticity and realism.

>AND FINALLY

>On a practical level, this is not really a story about “diversity” at all. It’s a story about the rise of YA comics. If you look at it that way, the things that sell and don’t sell (AND THE MARKETS THEY SELL IN VS THE MARKETS THEY DON’T SELL IN) start to make a different kind of sense.

hmm really activates those almonds don't you think?

>>91321874
>If you’re going to write a smug thunk-piece about the “failure” of “diversity” in comics, maybe don’t use the cover image of a book that’s had 4 collections on the NYT graphic books bestseller list, won a Hugo and cleaned up at Angouleme.

Isn't this the book that's now selling under 20k?

>>91321901
>Not for nothing, but there is a direct correlation between the quote unquote “diverse” Big 2 properties that have done well (Luke Cage, Black Panther, Ms Marvel, Batgirl)

Which Batgirl is she talking about, because both Batgirl and Birds of Prey are selling 25k a month

What is this strange standard of success

>>91321909
The direct market and the book market are different, and even if it's performing poorly now, that doesn't erase that it has performed well when it was never expected to go past ten issues originally.

>>91321909

Ms Marvel has been decimated by CW2 and people getting tired of the book. It's now in cancellation range.

>>91321901
Everything she said is on-point. Wilson is too good for Marvel.

>>91321934
It's been in "cancellation range" for years, there's other numbers we're not seeing propping it up.

>>91321901
>3. Never try to be the next whoever. Be the first and only you. People smell BS a mile away.

The book isn't the first Ms. Marvel one though.

>>91321909
Yup. Typical ramblings of a retarded egomaniac that's deluded herself into thinking she's hot shit.

>>91321959
That doees nothing to address or contradict the point since "Ms. Marvel" is literally only a name in this instance.

>>91321874
>>91321883
>>91321901
OMG YAAS!!!!

EVERYONE NEEDS TO DO THEIR PART TO PROVE TO MARVEL THAT BEING WOKE AND DIVERSE IS A GOOD THING!!!!

GO OUT AND BY GREAT BOOKS BY GREAT WRITERS OF COLOUR LIKE AMERICA!!!

>>91321874
I agree with the fact that Ms Marvel is a good comic book strongly character-driven and doesn't belong on the trash list with ridiculously forced diversity crap and webcomic-tier books like Hellcat. On the other hand, her involvements in the larger MU had sometimes been a symptom of that same direction, see CWII and especially Champions. But that's not Wilson's fault.

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>>91321970
If you want a "tl;dr" you could just ask.

>>91321874
>adding 'le' in points just to make them more ridiculous

Nah. Sod off.

>>91321920
>Luke Cage selling under 15K
>Successful

What was the criteria?

>>91321947

Yeah. Good PR. Shame that's worth as much as Monopoly money these days. Casuals don't remember it anymore.

>>91321947
Yeah, the mythical "digital sales" that Marvel refuses to show.

Funny how Comixology don't show Ms. Marvel as this juggernaut of the digital market.

So is there a source, or is Wilson actually gracing 4chan with her presence?

Or option 3: is OP just making this all up.

I gotta agree that Marvel is completely missing the point. The problem isn't simply bigotry, but a resistance to change coupled with a collection of books that are poorly written and paced, and which insultingly talk down to their readers. Add on top the growing reader apathy from years of Marvel's core strategy being "to piss off readers, thereby driving up sales" and 3 relaunches in 3 years.

The sales drop is because of bad editorial and managerial decisions. But management is afraid to admit that, so they're making scapegoats out of all their new characters and the entire reader base.

>>91322152
>Or option 3: is OP just making this all up.
You really don't know how to use Google?

>>91322152
WIlson's tumblr.

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>>91321874
I will never get tired of that image.

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>Riders of the Brohirrim

>>91322118
>>91322144
You're still speculating off incomplete information.

Well now I'm just confused. People in this thread are bitching because an official Marvel writer... fully agrees with everything that's ever been said in every complaining-about-diversity/marvel-is-tanking thread.

>>91321883
>unexpected audience
Is that really so unexpected?
Besides what many cry, you can relate to similar stories or backgrounds. All this "i have to represented" or "i dont feel attached" is nonsense.
Best example is X-Men. So many can relate to them. Be it teenagers, people that feel ugly, missunderstood, black, muslims, gay, transexuals. Everyone that feels like an outcast at some point.

>>91321901
So this guy gets it, why doesn't it get it that most of people agree with this?

When people complain about marvel brand of diversity, they aren't being "riders of Brohirrim" or whatever, they are complaining about throwing older characters under the bus.

>>91322227
Not really, she's missing some points and is far too up her own ass thinking she's making a genre defying work instead of the poorly selling comic book she's actually writing. The other titles she mentioned as "doing it right" are also selling poorly and are of low quality.

>>91321901
Which almonds?
I have a brain, not such small things.

>>91322227
Nobody is disagreeing with her on this matter.

The problem is the "don't use my uber-successful book as an example of failure", when said uber-successful book is currently less successful than "Red Hood and the Outlaws" in floppies.

>>91322245
>Everyone that feels like an outcast at some point.
The X-Men aren't really about that, let's be honest here.

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>>91322227
Eventually the quest for contranianism leads to a more enlightened path, but only if you fully commit. Theyre just on their way

>>91322255
Many i see complain that diversity is just used as a gimmick without any good storytelling.

>>91321901
Thanks for being on point Wilson. A good story sells when it's a good story, not cause you force it to be diverse or something.

>>91322272
The fact that it survived for this long and earned as many awards as it did is success enough. It doesn't need to be immortal to be successful, it already achieved it.

>>91322278
I woulds say they are about being outcasted and being a minority.

>>91322278
>The X-Men aren't really about that, let's be honest here.
Bingo!

90% of them are ridiculously attractive people that are constantly having sex with others ridiculously attractive people. What kind of outcast can relate to it?

What made the X-Men so successful was the soap opera. Who is sleeping with who? Who is cheating who? Will Logan and Jean go to bed? And Professor X, will he confess his love for her?

>>91321883
>A h-u-g-e reason Ms Marvel has struck the chord it has is because it deals with the role of traditionalis----
The reason Kamala got popular is because she was the best written out of all these OCs cosplaying as older characters. Good protagonist, good side chars, consistent setting and theme in the conflict.

All of which got thrown into a woodchipper after all those team-ups, crossovers and events.

>>91322365
She's saying there's more than one reason and that that's one of the reasons. You're dismissing all reasons by saying there's only one single reason, "the" reason.

I'm going to side with her on this one, I'm sure there are a lot of people who connected with traditional religion while living among a SJW culture.

>>91322365
Also it helps that Carol has always sucked. Kamala looks great by comparison.

>>91322348
Bingo, thats wrong.
You can be beautifull but live in slums.
You can be a topmodel, but you are only black.
Perfect husbando material but dangerous or branded as a terrorist.

The soap opera and the blockbuster action are just the boni.
The basics of storytelling. See greek or other ancient stories.

Wow you sure changed my opinion regarding trash. Now that I know it's only bad ironically I am surely going to invest in comics that have zero appeal to me.

I find it hard to believe this muslim character is popular since no one mentions her name translates to Awful in finnish.

>>91322335
>many awards

>>91322340
And you'd be wrong.

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>>91321874
>That freed us–by “us” I mean the whole creative team–to tell exactly the story we wanted to tell. We had nothing to lose, nothing to overcome but low expectations. That gave us room to break a lot of rules.

Such as "good comic books sell"

It won awards from the Washington Circlejerk so clearly its a great product

>>91322365
The reason she got popular was because she was the relatable character of the modern age. Tumblrina, silly, fan fic writer

>>91322552
And if it worked once, why shouldn't it work a thousand more times?
Cue Gwenpool, Hellcat and Squirrel Girl! Give the womanchildren what they obviously want!

>>91321934
We need to put that book and character behind us and never speak of it again

>>91322532
Nah, dont think so.
But your opinion is noted.

>>91321874
>That freed us–by “us” I mean the whole creative team–to tell exactly the story we wanted to tell. We had nothing to lose, nothing to overcome but low expectations. That gave us room to break a lot of rules.
I believe Wilson is being very sincere about what she perceive as true, but this isn't exactly what happened.

Do you guys remember when Kamala became a success? I remember. It was two months BEFORE her first issue came out. Not after. Before.

While the story was well-written, what ultimately made Kamala successful was Marvel PR.

You can see it in her trade sales. Her first volume sells big. Her second volume? It doesn't. She loses more than half readers each volume.

>>91322547
You realize that up until Secret Wars she sold around 30k and managed upper 20ks sales until CW2 took a giant shit on it? Outside the top 10 books rarely crack 70k in sales.

>>91322694
A good PR machine doesn't mean shit if no one likes your product. Just look at the Inhumans. Plus given the turnaround times for comics it was entirely likely that most, if not all, of the first arc was written by the time issue 1 dropped.

Most trade sales are biased towards first volumes as well.

>>91321874
>LE DIVERSITY IS KILLING LE COMI-
>Okay some things need to be said:
Should've started with 'ugh, no, sweetie', since you're already setting the tone like that.

>>91322666
It's not an opinion, it's fact.

>>91322939
>Just look at the Inhumans
Pulling similar numbers but across more titles.

>>91322582
>lumping Gwen in with those others
But why?

>>91322939
UI was beating her in floppys too anon even before CW2

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>>91321937
>she

>>91322004
is it censored or is that satire?

>>91323029
Yes? Wasn't this written by GWW? Last I checked she's a woman, unless she's secretly been a tranny this whole time and I just didn't know it.

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>>91323035
What do you think?

>>91323035
It's an edit, though the edit parts are actually from another comic that exists.

Ms Marvel by Wilson is pretty good at avoided hamfisted shit

>>91321901
>Who wants a legacy if the legacy is shitty?

>Writes an issue about elections

>>91323107
>Published after the election

>Where the equivalent of Jill Stein somehow won the election because "the people are woke"

>>91322272
But Red Hood is the best Rebirth title.

>>91323107
What does that have to do with what she's saying? She's saying that the "this new legacy is so much better than the original! Fuck the original!" approach to writing legacy characters is counter-intuitive because by shitting on the original, you're shitting on the legacy itself.

>>91323139
>the best Rebirth title is a Lobdell book
Sad! Also, wrong, because Superman, Deathstroke and New Super-man are the best Rebirth books.

>>91322004
Thats an edit... r-right?!

>>91323166
To be honest, Marvel started doing that shit because the public, /co/ included, was treating THE REAL HAWKEYE like the second coming of Christ.

"If our most successful legacy character is a character that barely has any characterization beyond 'I am better than the original', then this must be the formula of the success!".

Can we blame them? The fault is ours.

>>91323139
That's just sad.

>>91323252
Yes. The black text was originally from Angela: Queen of Hel.

>>91323276
thank you

>>91323178
Don't group trash like Superman with the other two.

>>91323311
>Rebirth's best title by a wide margin
>trash
The fuck are you on about? Tomasi's Superman is one of DC's best books of the 10s.

>>91323311
Name one Marvel book better than Superman.

And no, meme books like Moon Knight, Nova and Gwenpool are invalid.

>>91323266
People liked Kate under Fraction's writing because she contrasted with Clint and, while putting on a facade of responsibility and having her shit together, was frequently shown to have just as many issues, and a few of the same ones, as Clint. The current "REAL HAWKEYE" thing was a running joke that later writers and readers took at face value.

>>91321874

Did you actually buy the comics to help with the diversity for marvel

>>91322582
Because Hellcat and Squirrel Girl aren't relatable. Neither is Gwenpool.

Hellcat is some old woman posing as a young woman, SG has nothing even closely resembling a family life or real social interaction and Gwenpool is "gratuitous explosions: the musical"

Neither of those 3 even vaguely resemble the same kind of 'real person' feeling that made Kamala and Peter Parker so good

>>91321874
tl;dr

>>91323354
DC's worst book is better than Marvel's best. That doesn't make Superman not trash.

>>91321874
>>91321883
>>91321901
This is actually pretty decent. Pretty good for a comicpleb. Especially this:
>3. Never try to be the next whoever. Be the first and only you.
>>91322255
A lot of people do think stuff like "Muslim = forced diversity".

>>91322184
and you're still a cocksucking faggot

>>91323354
>meme books
I was going to say that publishing a comic better than the average marvel vomit doesn't mean much but I see now that you're a memester so it's best not to bother. PS Nova and Gwenpool are not good.

>>91322004
>blessed times
>free from today kikes

>>91323365
>The current "REAL HAWKEYE" thing was a running joke that later writers and readers took at face value.
Just like how the "you're not THAT straight" comment was just MAC joking at Kate's expense. Gillen, who had no problem with making the Young Avengers into the Gay Avengers and turning people into gays left and right, even said that Kate is 100% straight.

And yet, since then, it's been MAC/Kate shipping non-fucking-stop.

>>91323394
Neither SG nor Gwenpool set out to be a relateable, "real person" type of character. Hellcat wanted to be that type of character so hard.

>>91322278
They are about everything and for everyone

>>91323400
>Wilson says pretty much everything we've been saying for years
There you go.

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>>91321874
Ms Marvel WAS good when it was a charming story about a superhero fangirl suddenly finding herself with powers and dealing with the harsher difficulties and realities that come with being a hero. Her religion wasn't constantly shoved in our faces, but rather was used tastefully to provide context for her family relations and her moral conflicts. The comic had good writing, a neat aesthetic, and a compelling heroine.

Ever since Secret Wars she's gradually become just another hollow, smug, token diversity character. Being an interesting and compelling character has taken a back seat to taking cheap political shots, which is exactly WHY all this forced diversity shit has failed so hard. Comic readers want good stories and interesting characters, not focus group-designed shit that serves no other function than to check off demographic tick boxes.

>>91321970
>COLOUR
Outed.

>>91323413
This. Nova is absolute tumblr-pandering trash and the fact that shills on here try to push it as anything but garbage only goes to show how many Marvel Interns are getting paid to post on this board. It's fucking disgusting. I literally almost vommitted when I saw that Nova storytime where people were pretending to actually enjoy it.

>>91323448
which one? "fuck marvel and their sjw agenda"?
or "I would fug Tara Strong"?

>>91323439
Problem is whoever was writing that garbage fire can't pull that off - they came off as out of date and out of place as Waid writing that Champions comic

>>91323477
The first one.

>>91323166
That it's hypocritical to write stuff like this when her shit is no different than what the other guys are doing. Then again this is the same woman who said Iran is an educated country that everyone should visit. The same country that demanded female foreigners cover their heads at a fucking chess tournament.

>>91323494
>The same country that demanded female foreigners cover their heads at a fucking chess tournament.
How dare they.

>>91323493
an acceptable. condition!

>>91321874
Was it as telling to you guys they didn't speak of sell figures and how they compare to current and old sell numbers, instead focusing on two award shows that nearly imploded when they tried getting non sjw stories to be merely considered, and a category a few thousand makes you a best seller?

>>91323477
>forced diversity only breeds resentment
>shitting on the original to prop up the legacy is counter-intuitive
>you can't force "the next big thing"
>diversity isn't the problem, it's editorial mandates and shit writing
>don't try to push books meant for a non-DM demographic onto the direct market then act shocked that it fails and blame it on DM readers instead of your own incompetent editorial and marketing departments

>>91323451
>Ever since Secret Wars she's gradually become just another hollow, smug, token diversity character.

Not in her own book. Her book, aside from the terrible election issue, has the same tone as always, and yet is selling cancelation numbers.

What happened?

People are bored. YEARS of nothing but a slow slice-of-life. Her villains are a joke. Her arcs have the same formula. It simply doesn't warrant five bucks every month or five minutes of reading.

>>91323494
Again, I fail to see how writing a voting PSA (not even an agenda pushing one, just a straight up "here's how and where to vote, voting is important" issue) somehow makes her a hypocrite for saying that "you shouldn't shit on the original to prop up the legacy."

How is a voting PSA shitting on Carol Danvers?

>>91323561
Burqa on statue of liberty. Eat shit.

>>91323575
You didn't answer my question.

TL;DR the writers at marvel are just shitty.

>>91323534
You forgot
>diversity isn't good in itself, it just gives you more opportunities for good ("authentic") stories

>>91323608
>it just gives you more opportunities for good ("authentic") stories
No it fucking doesn't.

>>91323595
Basically, this.

>>91323608
Also
>just because something worked in one book doesn't automatically mean that every book that does the same thing will have the same kind of success

It's the same problem that DC learned with DCYou. Just because Batgirl worked doesn't mean that they should have turned half of their books into Batgirl rip-offs.

>>91323451
Fuck you, Captain Crap.

Let her be Shirou if she wants.

>>91321901
>>1. This is a personal opinion, but IMO launching a legacy character by killing off or humiliating the original character sets the legacy character up for failure. Who wants a legacy if the legacy is shitty?

Haha yeah man, for sure, who'd shit on previous legacies, that's so wrong

>What moments made you feel like progress had become official?

>WILSON: The reinvention of She-Hulk was a big one for me. She used to always be sunbathing, thinking about something vapid. Now she's a kickass lawyer in a wrestling singlet who fights crime. She's still in touch with her sexuality, but she's not lying on the roof in a teeny, tiny towel.

www.glamour.com/story/marvel-a-force-1-cover

>>91323478
Kate Leth wrote it and she's the same age as the character's she's writing about. The real issue is that Leth has an aversion to meaningful conflict and can't generate enough whimsy or character play to make her stories appealing SoL.

>>91323547
I think it's more a schizophrenic presentation within the great MU that is the issue. If you want the slow slice-of-life you're going to be turned off by the events, crossovers, and her appearances in other titles, if you want more superhero stuff you're going to be turned off by the slow slice-of-life. For comparison, look at Robinson's Starman; it's 70% family drama, 20% legacy issues, and the remaining 10% of superhero stuff is usually tied in with the family drama and legacy issues, but it's still considered to be a classic.

And CW2 happened. Her cancellation sales numbers are a relatively new development. She's seen an almost 8.5k drop in three issues.

>>91323805
How is this shitting on Bruce Banner.

>>91323837
It's shitting on She-Hulk.

>>91323475
did you forget to take your schizo pills today

>>91323869
She-Hulk isn't a legacy to She-Hulk. If anything you could probably make a decent argument that the classic She-Hulk is a shitty legacy to Banner, being a cheesecake, fourth-wall breaking, humor character.

I won't though, because I like She-Hulk, even current PTSD Jen, far better than I like Banner.

>>91323933
It's shitting on She-Hulk's legacy, you memester. You do understand what that word means, right?

>>91321883
>traditionalist faith
>does not cover face
>is not stoned to death for leaving the house accompanied