https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/0 4/02/not-diversity-cause

At some point you have to learn to tune out these kinds of things. Fact of the matter is that it doesn't really matter what Marvel is saying publicly if privately they actually are listening to retailers and attempting to fix things. PR is mostly bullshit to sway dumb people.

Now of course we are still fucked because it doesn't seem like they are doing that, but they'll learn eventually like DC did. Retailers always win in the end.

>>91279358
>What now?
So now the ball is in Marvel's court to figure out what caused the sales slump and fix it before they bleed out. Which is... poor writing, poor art, and poor editorial oversight. But that issue takes courage to identify and effort to fix, so they won't do it.

Nothing has changed.

>>91279420
Exactly. It's way easier to whine "THE MINORITIES DID IT!" than admit you have a shitty lineup of writers and your approach to stories is crap.

>>91279358
>What now?

Now the kids clinging to the anti-diversity bandwagon start making half-assed excuses.

>>91279358

Shucks, I guess their anecdotal contributions sure trump what the fucking numbers say.

We already knew that it wasn't the diversity by itself, proof being that diverse B listers on the DC side were outperforming 80 percent of all of Marvel.

>>91279420
The article cites nonstop event fatigue. Which is something that /co/ agrees with in general.

>>91279526
I would aruge that Marvel has actually hurt diversity with their minority book push, because they're all too similar, and appeal to the same market.

>>91279358
>So retailers pretty much universally agree
No. Their handpicked selections. Who also love the fuck out of mockinbird, America Chavez, and Champions.

Holy shit, the sanctimonious advertisement for the Comic & Tattoo shop triggered the fuck out of me.

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>>91279358
>>Retailers compliment Mockingbird.
>>Incredible America solo
>>Even Kate Leth Hellcat

Do you ever just want the medium you use to love just collapse and die?

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>>91279358

I don't blame them

You spend all this time making tons of money with the Marvel Movies making bank with the casuals and having all these IPs being face of the comics.

And they go to the comic store and Iron Man is a black girl, Captain America is black, Hulk is Korean, Thor is a woman, Ms. Marvel is a Muslim. You don't think the casuals will be confused and thus walk away because of it?

>>91279664
I'm not sure existence is even worth it, right this second.

>>91279696
It happened in the early 2000s.

X-Men and Spiderman were raiding high for Marvel, the wall was smashed down, casuals getting into comics....... during a terrible time to get into comics by Marvel on a creative angle (Cept some select books like Wolverine, The Ultimates, ect), Marvel almost goes bankrupt when they should have been growing a new audience.

>>91279696
>Ms. Marvel is a Muslim.
Ms. Marvel isn't even in the films yet, and Kamala is way more popular than Carol.

>>91279358
The problem isn't diversity itself, diversity is half the premise of the X-men and they've been one of the most popular superhero teams for decades now. The problem is constant relaunches, bad writing, bad events, and shitty treatment and removal of old characters in favor of shilling these new ones. Marvel's whole business strategy is shit and they need to change it.

>>91279358
So they're saying people who don't like diversity don't buy all the diverse shit that's everywhere? Wow!

it's /co/s fault for pretending to like Kamala for more than brown cuteness
it started this whole ordeal

One thing Marvel could do: actually pay its creators decently.

DC pays its creators a fair deal more than Marvel (and has since at least the 90's) but in the past A-list creators were willing to take the pay cut because Marvel had higher sales, which meant more exposure. Now DC is selling better, so there's no reason for popular creators to stay unless they're under contract.

This is a vicious cycle that Marvel can't break unless they start paying decent money.

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>>91279664

>>91279696
Diversity isn't to blame for this. Marvel is very poor at marketing their books to normies. Their bookstore figures are absolutely horrible.

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>>91279526
It's not even "THE MINORITIES DID IT!". They're blaming the audience for not being progressive enough to buy into their diversity push, but they're using that as a fucking scapegoat.

Marvel's blaming the readers now, just like they blamed DC in the past for being more retailer friendly, when the reality is that their creative pool is a fucking shit-heap and they have no editorial to speak of.

Once this blows over, Marvel will just find something or someone else to blame because they can't own up to the fact that people aren't buying their books because their books fucking suck.

>>91279630
>Who also love the fuck out of mockinbird, America Chavez, and Champions.

Retailers like comics that sell well? SURELY THIS MUST BE AN SJW CONSPIRACY

Champions isn't well-written but it was one of Marvel's best-selling books last year. America #1 was a surprise hit. Mockingbird's monthly title got shit sales but the collected edition was a top seller due to all the media attention.

The free market has spoken, anon.

>>91279358
>What now?
Marvel enjoys free publicity.

Yeah because if I drop a title I'm going to loudly announce to the store owner why I'm doing it.

It's not diversity thats the problem. It's the fact that these new characters don't make for compelling stories which I blame completely on the writers/editors. Even Ms. Marvel has gotten boring. Marvel played their hand with new characters but didn't have the talent to back them up.

>>91279998
>saying dumb shit like "fans hate minorities" (even though DC has ongoings with minorities that sell fine) and "if we make trades the same price as everyone else we'll lose money" (even though literally every other company sells more trades than them)

>publicity

>>91279974
Oh neat, can you point me to the sales figures youre citing?

ANOTHER ONE

>>91280025
Reminder that Marvel blamed Wizard magazine dying for them not having any star artists and not their own fucking talent scouting for failing to attract star-level talent

>>91279974
Those comics don't sell well which is why Marvel can't even deny they've hit bad times. They have no tentpoles other than Spider-Man and Star Wars.

>>91280026
Every sites seems to attack the "fans' more than anything. Telling Marvel to "stay woke" and maybe the sjw titles will get a small boost for two or three months in sales. Either way, Marvel are being painted as the good sjw company and some ashole anti-sjw are being mean and are giving Marvel bad ideas.

>>91279526
But Marvel hired minorities to write minority characters, on the basis of them being minorities, instead of on the basis of "being able to write good comics".

So, yes, it is entirely the fault of the SJW "diversity" push, even if it's not the fault of, say, "all Hispanics" for America Chavez.

Its sort of like people bitching about Speedy Gonzalez being a racial stereotype in America... while being one of the most popular cartoons in Mexico.

>>91279974
This. People need to just recognize that not all comics are meant for them anymore, just most of them. Men aged 18-35 aren't the only people who read comics now.

>>91279974
>Champions isn't well-written but it was one of Marvel's best-selling books last year.

It was a deal Marvel made with Schollastic, they gave them the books. Real humans being weren't buying them on stores.

>America #1 was a surprise hit.

Pfff, yeah, sure.

>Mockingbird's monthly title got shit sales but the collected edition was a top seller due to all the media attention.

Nobody gave a fuck about Mockingbird until the writer got "harassed" on twitter, which made people buy the TPB on Amazon. Fucking amazing strategy, just gotta say all their writers are getting harassed on twitter, then all their books will sell.

>>91280125
Shills gonna shill.

>>91279358
We all like being proven right, but you are literally citing from Bleeding Cool? Jesus

I liked Mockingbird. It didn't blow me away, but I didn't think it was this abomination that /co/ did.

The complaints about diversity are just to make headlines. The real reason Marvel's in a slump is because they have little to no talented people working on their shit.

Also you ever notice how cheap and shitty the paper in Marvel comics is? That was part of the reason I stopped pulling the books. Why spend money on that?

>>91280125
This is true, however Mockingbird wasn't even a top 750 seller in bookstores last year. Marvel is very poor at reaching other markets besides movies.

>>91280185
It's probably Rich himself posting it. Just don't give him the clicks.

>>91280160
What does that even mean?

>>91280192
It had 2 very bad issues that deserve the hate, but people pretend like that was the entire book for some reason. It's odd.

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>>91280032
Champions #1 was the 4th best selling comic of 2016: http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2016.html

America #1 doesn't have sales figures yet but it's getting a second printing, which means the first run sold out: http://diskingdom.com/2017/03/10/america-1-will-return-comics-shops-new-printing/

>>91280192
First issue barely had a story and was actually wrong as it was in marvel 616 continuity. So I dropped it like a bad habit.

I will honestly be surprised if America #2 even makes it to 15k, so this writer better get some serious bait prepared on her twitter account if they want to get some decent trade sales.

>>91280290
Please see >>91280227
>This is true, however Mockingbird wasn't even a top 750 seller in bookstores last year. Marvel is very poor at reaching other markets besides movies.

It had a nice peak for a day or so but it did not sell in significant numbers overall.

Full list: http://www.comicsbeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Bookscan-16-Top-750_sheet.htm

I stopped pulling pretty much all of my Marvel books because they're not superhero stories anymore. They're social commentary which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it's not what I read when I want fantasy escapism.

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>>91280152
>none of these sales count because I don't want them to.

Okay, buddy, why don't you call up Marvel and tell them all the money they made on those comics was imaginary? I'm sure they'll listen.

>>91280271
Which ones? I don't recall ever getting as mad as /co/ did when reading it.

>>91280329
I wouldn't go this far with it. Superheroes aren't wholly separate from social commentary. The problem is when an unskilled writer attempts to use it in one of their stories like most of the Marvel writers it gets written like a really shitty PSA for elementary school students that ends up being more cringey than if it was just a shitty action story.

>>91280192
It was a decent comic. Not spectacular, but not terrible either.

/co/ just hates it because it has a MEAN SCARY F-WORD on one of its covers. and Marvel didn't even provide a trigger warning.

>>91280083
>Marvel hired minorities to write minority characters
hardly, most of their big name minority characters are written by white dudes. Maybe 3 or 4 total are actually written by minorities

>>91279974
There's a logical disconnect here. If this garbage is selling well, then why did they make a statement on how shitty their sales are?

>>91280192
>>91280391
I think the first two issues were good, the last two issues were full on storytime of pain. She was more compelling as a guest in Fraction's run than in her entire solo.

>>91280380
>>91280329
I'm actually fine with social commentary, but it's poorly executed, boring, and worst of all predictable, with bland characters. Judge Dredd, Flintstones, Omega Men, Prez, all recent runs with social commentary.

There's a half dozen or so recent marvel books that are all shitty borderline slice of life shojo books with a little lolrandom. There's nothing wrong with a book being like that, but so many similar books isn't my idea of diversity.

>>91280290
Champions #1 was massively overshipped, sales tanked hard after that. America #1 going back for a second printing likely means the first printing had a fairly small run because they weren't expecting it to do well after Mosaic

>>91280380
True. Marvel in particular has always been about social commentary but in the past it wasn't nearly as obvious about it.

I think what I really miss is the Marvel Renaissance writers who got to write their stories without an agenda and editorial meddling. Not to mention constant events and crossovers.

>>91280319
Retailers operate on very slim margins. A one day spike in sales for a comic can make a world of difference for them. One day of strong sales could do more for a retailer than an entire year of flat sales on something like X-Men or Avengers.

Especially on trades, which have higher profit margins than floppies.

No of course it wasn't the fucking diversity, just look at Black Panther, The Ultimates, Kamala, Miles, Moon Girl, all selling well and relatively popular.

What fucked them were constant cancellations due to shitty books, written by shitty SJW writers trying to push shitty SJW talking points and fucking up the characters people actually liked. America Chavez's book is a fucking abomination and an insult to South Americans with her constant "let me throw in a random spanish word every other sentence because that's how beaners actually speak". And let's not even get into Angela or Thor. People want to see familiar faces or new characters that are actually well written. We want good fucking stories from comics, not some fucking SJW dykes self insert giving us a sermon about male privilege.

Apparently it's too much to ask.

>>91280447
>If this garbage is selling well, then why did they make a statement on how shitty their sales are?
they sell ok, even great, in small spurts, but they all have zero staying power

>>91280331
>smug anime girl
Desperation.

>>91280355
mainly #3 and #8 are what triggered /co/ the most

>>91280526
Those sales are mainly big retailers not small ones with margins that fragile. We're talking Amazon, Wal-Mart, etc. If it really sold well it would have shown up on the list. It's good that it got a bump but don't pretend like it was a huge success.

>>91280529
Funny you mention Thor as a negative but it's the only one that actually sells, the rest of the titles you mentioned have been dropping like a rock. Except Moon girl, that one had shit sales from the start.

>>91280290
4th highest for 2016 sounds pretty cool, but it looks like thise sales evaporated.

73- 103- CHAMPIONS

10/16 Champions #1 - 334,937
11/16 Champions #2 - 49,733 (-85.2%)
12/16 Champions #3 - 47,481 (- 4.5%)
01/17 Champions #4 - 34,969 (-26.4%)
02/17 Champions #5 - 31,344 (-10.4%)
02/17 Champions #1.MU ($5) - 20,999 (-33.0%)

Since issue #2: - 57.8%
Will be below 30K with its #6 issue. The whole hierarchy of sales level has been changed at Marvel this last year: 20K to 29K is no longer a danger zone, but the standart OK zone.

>>91280526
Bookscan tracks bookstores, not LCSes

>>91280447
>I'm actually fine with social commentary, but it's poorly executed, boring, and worst of all predictable, with bland characters. Judge Dredd, Flintstones, Omega Men, Prez, all recent runs with social commentary.
This is true. I like those books. I guess I'm just not looking for social commentary in a book like Thor for example. I don't mind JaneThor but I think Aaron could have introduced her and left out the whole "feminism like a 4-letter word" part and it would have been fine.

>>91280590
>mainly #3 and #8 are what triggered /co/ the most

Those aren't even that bad. They're pretty average actually.

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>>91280529
>Moon Girl
>selling well

>>91280617
I mean right at the beginning when everyone fucking hated it. I guess it grew on people.

>>91280529
>Moon Girl selling well
Kek no
201- MOON GIRL AND DEVIL DINOSAUR

11/15 Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur #1 - 38,133
12/15 Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur #2 - 21,715 (-43.1%)
01/16 Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur #3 - 18,424 (-15.2%)
02/16 Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur #4 - 14,941 (-18.9%)
03/16 Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur #5 - 14,771 (- 1.1%)
04/16 Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur #6 - 12,253 (-17.0%)
05/16 Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur #7 - 12,879 (+ 5.1%)
06/16 Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur #8 - 12,721 (- 1.2%)
07/16 Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur #9 - 10,338 (-18.7%)
08/16 Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur #10- 11,862 (+14.7%)
09/16 Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur #11- 9,765 (-17.7%)
10/16 Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur #12- 9,509 (- 2.6%)
11/16 Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur #13- 11,113 (+16.9%)
12/16 Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur #14- 9,370 (-15.7%)
01/17 Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur #15- 10,966(+17.0%)
02/17 Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur #16- 8,440 (-23.0%)

Since issue #2 : -61.1%
MOON GIRL AND DEVIL DINOSAUR VOL.1: 3,747
Average +% TPB Sales issues #1-6: +25.1%

MOON GIRL AND DEVIL DINOSAUR VOL.2: 1,664
Average +% TPB Sales issues #7-12: +14.0%

Growth in trades tho.

>>91280667
I just love how /co/ desperately defend that garbage of a book.

>>91280643
>I like those books.

None of them sold well.

Comic books that don't have Batman in the title generally don't sell well.

>>91280643
I think you can do with her, but there just wasn't enough nuance in the execution. Shouldn't haven't caricatures as opponents.

Maybe Marvel's in a slump because they decided to release books like Great Lakes Avengers and Slapstick in their recent push. Who the fuck thought either of those was a good idea?

>>91280704
>02/17 Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur #16- 8,440 (-23.0%)
16 issues in and still selling betetr than Midnighter or Midnighter and Apollo. Also Doom Patrol, Shade, Flintstones, Six Pack.

/co/ btfo

>>91280627
Pretty sure the #1s were a combination of overshipping and nerd-bait-box stuffing. I bet you anything those aren't legitimate pre-order numbers and the drop only proves it.

>>91280704
>>91280688
All those except Moon Girl, people still like her though. I guess not enough to actually buy the books though.

>>91280718
It used to be that Spider-Man and X-Men sold too.

>>91279624
>Trump
I see what you did there.

>>91280083
well when they do this, like with ms marvel and black panther, it tends to work out

when they hire white women it tends to fall apart terribly

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>>91280730
You CAN use caricatures to make social commentary and make it work, but being predicatable with it is boring.

>>91280802
Yeah, back when people went into comic book stores to buy rather than chat and complain about shit.

> what now

We stop having this exact same thread.

>>91280845
It's less about that and more about how Marvel torpedoed both franchises

Slott and Bendis need to fuck off

>>91280775
Flintstones, M&A, and Moon Girl all sell around the same level. Doom Patrol and Shade outsell it, Doom Patrol by quite a bit

>>91280831
Ms. Marvel is written by a white woman, though

and Black Panther sells like crap

>>91280420
Carol, white women. World of Wakanda, black woman. Power Man and Iron Fist, black guy. Mosaic, black guy. Mockingbird, white woman. Hellcat, white woman. Moon Girl, white woman. America, gay latina.
So many women and minorities, all of them failures. Except Black Panther which gets by on Coates' name value and a character that was featured prominently in a movie. His being attached to World of Wakanda didn't save it though.

>>91280940
>white Muslim woman
Fixed.

>>91280940
>and Black Panther sells like crap

This is not true. It's healthy in floppies and ok in trades (beaten by goddamn DC Superhero Girls though despite having a non-comics popular writer who presumably could have shilled it well, in that sense it is a failure since they were probably betting on big numbers there).

Why lie about things that are measured and publicly reported?

>>91280940
>and Black Panther sells like crap
Why lie? It's not like people can't just look up the sales themselves.

>>91280529
Miles still sells pretty well.

61- SPIDER-MAN

02/16 Spider-Man #1 - 99,951
03/16 Spider-Man #2 - 60,627 (-39.3%)
04/16 Spider-Man #3 - 59,789 (- 1.4%)
05/16 Spider-Man #4 - 49,167 (-17.8%)
06/16 Spider-Man #5 - 47,025 (- 4.4%)
07/16 Spider-Man #6 - 52,731 (+12.1%) (CV2)
08/16 Spider-Man #7 - 47,678 (- 9.6%) (CV2)
09/16 Spider-Man #8 - 44,745 (- 6.2%) (CV2)
10/16 ---
11/16 Spider-Man #9 - 39,701 (-11.3%)
12/16 Spider-Man #10 - 40,006 (+0.8%)
12/16 Spider-Man #11 - 35,865 (-10.4%)
01/17 Spider-Man #12 - 47,517 (+32.5%)
02/17 Spider-Man #13 - 34,195 (-28.0%)

Since issue #2: -43.6%
Issue #12 was the kissing issue, beetwen Miles and Gwen, overshipping.

>>91280529
59-BLACK PANTHER

04/16- Black Panther #1 - 286,755
05/16 Black Panther #2 - 102,366
06/16 Black Panther #3 - 75,037 (-26.7%)
07/16 Black Panther #4 - 72,302 (- 3.6%)
08/16 Black Panther #5 - 83,756 (+15.8%)
09/16 Black Panther #6 - 58,746 (- 29.9%)
10/16 Black Panther #7 - 60,857 (+ 3.6%)
11/16 Black Panther #8 - 43,451 (- 28.6%)
12/16 Black Panther #9 - 39,123 (- 10.0%)
01/17 Black Panther #10 - 38,741 (- 1.0%)
02/17 Black Panther #11 - 35,492 (- 8.4%)

Since issue #2: -65.4%
Not the smashing hit it was said to be.

1.) Nobody likes shoehorned diversity or the subjects being condescendingly flawless and exemplary. It's ham-fisted and reeks of marketing and nobody's buying into it.

2.) Their sales should be relatively thru the roof with the MCU peaking the most interest in comic books probably ever. But instead of making their product accessible to newcomers, they made their stories and convoluted mess.

Just because one of these things is true doesn't mean the other isn't.

>>91280529
102- ULTIMATES

11/15 Ultimates #1 - 61,406
12/15 Ultimates #2 - 37,055 (-39.7%)
01/16 Ultimates #3 - 30,068 (-18.9%)
02/16 Ultimates #4 - 27,177 (- 9.6%)
03/16 Ultimates #5 - 28,627 (+ 5.3%)
04/16 Ultimates #6 - 26,146 (- 8.7%)
05/16 Ultimates #7 - 26,500 (+ 1.4%)
06/16 Ultimates #8 - 30,675 (+15.6%) (CV2)
07/16 Ultimates #9 - 27,588 (-10.1%) (CV2)
08/16 Ultimates #10- 26,848 (- 2.7%) (CV2)
09/16 Ultimates #11- 26,030 (- 3.0%) (CV2)
10/16 Ultimates #12- 23,871 (- 8.3%) (CV2) END

11/16 Ultimates 2 # 1- 34,646
12/16 Ultimates 2 # 2- 23,844 (-31.2%)
01/17 Ultimates 2 #3- 24,369 (+2.2%)
02/17 Ultimates 2 #4- 21,235 (-12.9%)

Since issue #2: -10.9%
Instead of relaunching every serie every 12 issue sor less, why won’t Marvel use the L.E.G.I.O.N. title trick, adding the year to the title, for example Ultimates ’17. That would really help. Because, with all the variants, good luck into finding back issues you want several months later.

>>91280529
Girls don't buy floppies

109- MS MARVEL

02/14 Ms. Marvel #1 - 50,286 ( --- )
03/14 Ms. Marvel #2 - 38,357 (-23.7%)
...
02/15 Ms. Marvel #12 – 29,054 ( -2.7%)
03/15 Ms. Marvel #13 – 32,425 (+11.6%)
04/15 Ms. Marvel #14 – 32,058 (- 1.1%)
05/15 Ms. Marvel #15 – 32,185 (+ 0.4%)
06/15 Ms. Marvel #16 – 32,855 (+ 2.1%)
07/15 ---
08/15 Ms. Marvel #17 – 31,567 (- 3.9%)
09/15 Ms. Marvel #18 - 33,761 (+7.0%)

11/15 Ms Marvel #1 - 79,222
12/15 Ms Marvel #2 - 46,610 (-41.2%)
01/16 Ms Marvel #3 - 32,364 (-30.6%)
02/16 Ms Marvel #4 - 30,916 (- 4.5%)
03/16 Ms Marvel #5 - 31,871 ( +3.1%)
04/16 Ms Marvel #6 - 29,863 (- 6.3%)
05/16 Ms Marvel #7 - 29,840 (- 0.1%)
06/16 Ms Marvel #8 - 31,798 (+ 6.6%) (CV2)
07/16 Ms Marvel #9 - 28,313 (-11.0%) (CV2)
08/16 Ms Marvel #10- 29,395 (+ 3.8%) (CV2)
09/16 Ms Marvel #11- 27,278 (- 7.2%) (CV2)
10/16 Ms Marvel #12- 28,348 (+ 3.9%)
11/16 Ms Marvel #13- 23,621 (-16.7%)
12/16 ---
01/17 Ms Marvel #14- 24,006 (+1.6%)
02/17 Ms Marvel #15- 19,870 (-17.2%)

Since issue #2 : -57.4 %
VOL.1 : 46,149 [+945]
VOL.2 : 18,698
VOL.3 : 11,282
VOL.4 : 6,642
VOL.5 : 5,200
VOL.6: 3,500
HC vol.1 : 1,942
HC vol.2 : 2,653
I would never have guess this one would fall over the 20K so early. Floppies will soon be for dinosaurs only. Meanwhile, Vol.1 is still selling lmike crazy but the loss beetween volumes is quite gaping.

All the figures I autistically posted are from The Beat's monthly charts

http://www.comicsbeat.com/marvel-month-to-month-sales-chart-january-february-2017-two-in-one/

>>91281262
I think the one-two punch of Civil War and the delayed-to-shit election issue really hurt it the most. Plus the current storyline is kind of shit on top of all that

>>91281149
Those November and December drops look troubling to me. It's not in danger of cancellation or anything, but you don't want to see drops that large with a character who has maintained good numbers for years before this.

>>91281262
I think it's two separate problems here. The novelty with Kamala got stale after a while among the normies which made them not want to come back after the first couple of trades. But her floppy sales among the nerds were very stable until CW2, what a fucking blunder.

>>91281319
The current storyline is only really shitty because the reference is so outdated (WoW, really?) and the stakes are so low. The idea of a sapient AI wanting to take over the world shouldn't be reduced down to "infect me in SHIELD or I tell everyone at school that your friend is GAAAAAAAAAAAY". That's high school drama tier, ffs.

It's still miles better than the CWII tie-in and the Very Special Election Issue, though.

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>>91279358
Okay so let me just give my two cents like anyone cares

The problem is definitely /not/ diversity. It's extremely bad writing and alienating fans that's the problem. Like this is most exemplified by this piece of shit. There is NOTHING interesting about this character. She's not relate-able because even though she's a double victim of gun violence she's not a struggling inter city youth so there's nothing interesting to take away from it. Bendis teased this she's so smart that she stays in her head and that could lead to bad things but Riri isn't cold or withdrawn. Riri doesn't view the world in numbers with a gray morality (even though someone ultra rational who's a victim of gun violence twice SHOULD have a more grim outlook on reality.). WHO WAS THIS CHARACTER FOR!?!? There's /nothing/ interesting about her at all! Legacy character's are supposed bring something new and innovative to the table, especially when they're outright replacing their seniors. She brings nothing but being a smart black girl (because I guess the idea of that existing is ground breaking to bendis)! The fact that she's black is moot as it doesn't take away or add anything to her character! It wouldn't matter if it wasn't for the fact that everyone keeps going WOW LOOK AT HOW BLACK THIS FEMALE CHARACTER IS! LOOK HOW SMART THIS FEMALE BLACK CHARACTER IS! SHE'S BLACK AND FEMALE AND IRON MAN! LOOK LOOK LOOK!!!

I am as feminist as they come, I hang with friends who are so far left I can't even see them. They signal boosted the hell out of this comic only to drop it in one issue. why? because while it does their heart good to see diversity, diversity alone cannot make something quality. That's just the way things are. Make good things and people will read them. Make bad things and people won't read them.

>>91281913
the funny thing is that there's three black girl super-geniuses with poofy hair running around in comics right now and the only time one of them was good was when she showed up in a book written by a black guy

>>91281913
Creating Riri instead of just using Lila especially after killing her uncle just because Bendis thought it would happen in the movie will always trigger me.

>>91281963
You forgot Natasha Irons. And despite Superwoman being pretty bad overall she's alright there.

>one anonymous source
>universally agree

>>91282390
well it's four anonymous sources but still

>>91279696
Ok, filthy casual reporting in. I've only read a handful of graphic novels my /co/ friends have pushed my way; Red Son, Watchmen, WHTCC?, etc, the big classics, to give you an idea. I'm going to have to disagree with you. Casuals aren't really walking away from Marvel because they walk into a comic book store and see a black Spider-Man or a Muslim Ms. Marvel, get confused, and have a cry. A simple Google search or "black spiderman" or something is going to clear that up for you.

First, casuals are walking away from comics because they walk into a comic book store and are faced with 5 Spider-Mans, 6 Batmans, 9 Supermans, 3 Wonder Womans, 7 X-Mens (and several X-Men then have their own comic book series or two), and so on. All by different writers and artists, none taking place in the exact same continuity, each with their own take on this or interpretation of that aspect of the hero or a villain. Heroes visit each other's series all the time, but it's never certain whether their actions carry back to their own series of books or not. And at any time, when one author starts up another series, there's no telling when they'll line-item retcon whatever came before. The casual is presented with all this, and the realization that it has been going on in a backlog spanning -decades-. If you want to catch up, or even get a synopsis, you're in for a lot of time on the Internet, sifting through wikis, synopses, maybe getting your hands on some older comics. Hours and hours of catching up and putting the pieces together. It's incredibly daunting and off-putting; there is no definitive or authoritative Spider-Man or Batman or whatever, just a guideline of motivations or events that are held mostly definitive, and that's it.

(comment is too long, I'm going to have to break this up).

>>91283068
(cont.)
Sure, you can choose to ignore everything and just jump in a random series and enjoy it on its own merits. I'm sure that's how a lot of comic book fans handle things, I get that. But not everyone makes that choice, and the fact that that choice even HAS to be made means you're going to be losing a bunch of potential readers. I eventually made the choice to move more towards manga partly because of this; a lot of them are shorter and more manageable, and they eventually end with the same creator (+assistants) doing the writing and drawing the whole time, so you, on the whole, get consistent storytelling and characterization throughout. It's a lot more accessible on a casual basis then being confronted with 50 years of X-Men and the thousands of spin-offs and takes and the like.

Second, and related, there is a LOT of variation in the quality of storytelling seen in comics. For every Red Son, there are probably a dozen or more Superman collections or whole series that would be better lining a bird cage. I get giving these writers and artists their freedom to take on character or team of characters, but from my casual read-throughs at the comic book store and comments I've heard from /co/ friends of mine and comments here, there really needs to be better vetting of the author and editorial oversight on the story for a lot of titles. It muddies the water further for a casual trying to get into a character, and when you have half a dozen titles coming out for one character, and 9/10 of them read like bad fanfiction... It's going to drive folks away. The big comics companies have GOT to up their storytelling game and improve the average quality of their works. There is so much competition for people's leisure time and dollars these days, that clearly the old way of approaching things is not wholly sustainable.

(one more section, sorry it's a text wall)

>>91283104
(cont., last one I swear)
Lastly, a bit of commentary from a casual. I saw someone else in another one of these threads mentioning that instead of giving the big favorite characters a gimmicky twist to drum up readership, Marvel, DC, and others need focus on doing their market research and take some calculated risks on developing new properties. Get new artists and writers to experiment with new stories, new superheroes, or step into new genres outside of that. It's probably going to be ugly and have some (or a lot) of failure for a while while everyone finds their footing, but I think it would be more beneficial to pull in readers OUTSIDE of their traditional core group of long-time diehard fans; search out new pockets, rather than trying to dig deeper into existing pockets. It's been a long-time criticism of the industry of mine, in that they always seem to talk about improving readership and sales, but never really -trying- beyond lip service, some token effort, and a bunch of gimmicks with existing properties, then acting surprised and pointing at how their efforts flopped, and saying that "readers" (read: core readership) didn't like their favorites being messed with. If you do the same old shit and expect real change, you're fooling yourself.

I was really hoping this is what the New 52 was going to turn out to be, but instead it was just more of the same from an industry that just doesn't seem to get what anyone but their core audience is interested in (and even then, it seems like their gauge on that is iffy at best). There are deep, systemic problems about the industry that are driving away casuals to other mediums, and it's a lot more than having a Korean Hulk or Muslim Ms. Marvel.

>>91283149
DC is more experimental than Marvel but there's a point where cost certainty comes into play. And also creators wanting to do non-superhero work generally prefer to do it through a creator owned venue since they'll take in more of the profit (of course that can be hard if you don't already have a fanabse which is why they'll do big 2 work first).

>>91283149
Thing is, superhero comics thrive on conformity. Every time they try something new it ends up not being innovative enough because they don't have the courage to do it, or they do and then people freak out. That's just the way it is.

>>91280125
I did recognize that, years ago.
So why the hell am I being blamed for poor sales now? You guys told me to gtfo, so I did. The ball was in your court. I handed it to you. How is it my fault you fumbled?

>>91283238
Can you give me some examples of how DC is more experimental? If they do take more risks on non-superhero genres, especially if they move outside of action-adventure-oriented stuff, I'd be curious to know, because they certainly aren't doing adequate marketing to get the word out broadly enough.

Yes, there is a point where cost DOES come into play, but the old adage of "you have to spend money to make money" is true; if you don't spend the money to invest in expanding your market, you're going to stagnate and struggle. It's why i made a point of saying they needed to do better market research and take calculated (better informed, reasonable, etc) risks on expanding that market; NOT just writing the same old stuff for the same people. It's not really growing your market very well or sustainably to maintain it on gimmicks and shaking your hardcore fans down for even more money.

If the Big 2 are losing an author's work to other studios, then it's their loss; they are allowing brain-drain to occur and losing potentially lucrative properties to other studios who may not be able to make it as commercially successful as it could be.

>>91284229
>If they do take more risks on non-superhero genres, especially if they move outside of action-adventure-oriented stuff, I'd be curious to know, because they certainly aren't doing adequate marketing to get the word out broadly enough.
My favorite DC book in the last year was Flintstones. I've heard good things about Gotham Academy as well, apparently it was some kinda scooby doo schoolgirl mystery thing set in gotham city?

>>91284229
DC has Vertigo Comics

It's basically dead now though because WB gets the IP if you write something there. No real reason to make that kind of stuff for DC when you can publish it on your own.

>>91279358
Obviously, people are tired of the shit writing and constant cross overs and company wide events.

But Marvel's not going to admit that it's their own fault

Japan, Britain, and I think France, all have a tradition of anthology comics.

Japan's Shonen Jump is the most famous example, and in the UK it's pretty much compulsory to have more than one strip in a comic.

Yet it seems American comic readers hate the thought of their precious fave character's comics having other characters appear in secondary strips.

The result of this is that only the A-listers get long running comics, everyone else gets solos that die almost instantly.

>>91279358
"Diversity" is not a good thing or bad thing inherently. Marvel acted for a couple of years there like it was an inherently good thing and that if they had fewer white males around this would bring in a flood of new readers.

They were enabled in this by the comics "media" which basically assumes that everyone shares the tastes of the people who write the articles.

There's no real evidence that people want to see characters who "look like them," or else kids would have identified more with Robin than Batman.

Doesn't mean they have to keep using the same old white guy characters every time, just that when your marketing gimmick is "fewer white guys," hardly anybody thinks that's an incentive to buy the book. The people who do think it's an incentive are over-represented online.

>>91284008
I get that. New ideas fail all sorts of reasons though. Maybe it was just a cheap gimmick for an established series that angered fans, maybe it was an alright idea but was given to a creative team not up to the task. Maybe not enough or too much control was given or taken away from editors or creatives. Maybe it was just the wrong idea at the wrong time. Or maybe the new idea was just bad all around and the person(s) that pushed it had too much influence for anyone else to kill it.

That doesn't mean they should stop trying altogether, though. They need seriously decide if they actually WANT to change to bring in new readers and expand their marketbase, or not. If they don't make REAL, sincere efforts to shake things up, I don't want to hear them complain on Twitter and blame others about not having enough readership or projects flopping. It seems to me on the outside of things that the Big 2 are secretly happy with doing things as they've always done and feel efforts to get them to be more diverse or otherwise change how they do things are a persistent nuisance to be appeased long enough to get the criticism off their backs.

>>91284372
Neither of those sound particularly interesting personally, but it's good to hear there's some experimentation going on. I'm disappointed that they're with existing properties, though (Flintstones and Batman) rather than wholly new IP.

>>91284417
I remember Vertigo being the edgy, arthouse wing of DC that did stuff like Sandman. Again though, it sounds like DC let that wither on the vine by making the environment unfavorable for artists to want to generate new works there. If they actually care about stopping the brain-drain of talent and having a place that could bring in folks from outside their traditional readership, they need to make working for them a better deal than self-publishing or going to small publisher.

You all pirate your comics anyway. Why do you care?

>>91285287
To any noob reader with similar perspective: books from publishers outside the big 2 have what you're looking for. Different genres, contained narratives, consistent quality and authorial intent. Of course, with new or limited properties, quality cant be assured, but that problem is inherent to any new piece of consumable media.

>>91279811
Kamala's actually liked for more than that, even here. She has that early spider-man feel of balancing school and being a superhero thing going for, or at least she did before they decided to put her on the primary team of old-time veterans that handle the big shit for some reason.

She started out small, and part of her success had everything to do with how small the stakes felt. Now, she's fucking everywhere, on the biggest team. Even in-universe, it barely makes a lick of sense.

Marvel ruined Kamala before she had her chance to grow into her role as a hero. They saw her popularity and decided to suddenly thrust her everywhere, and her character arc suffered immensely for it.

>>91286278
That could still be a way to redeem her, though. Do a storyline about how Kamala wasn't ready to be an Avenger or become a world-class hero, and how she deals with the overwhelming pressure.

I mean, even in-universe, Stark only brought her in because the Avengers were out of money and desperate for new members. It would be nice to have him have to answer for that irresponsibility.

>>91285404
Like the shop owner in OP's post says, they like to complain about diversity while doing nothing to actually support the industry.

And then they'll brag about how they're the only "real fans."