https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/0 3/31/marvels-david-gabri

Same editorial. Same writers. Nothing is going to change.

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>not raping and holocausting all cis white men
Marvel is literally Hitler.

>Part of it, but I think also it seemed like tastes changed, because stuff you had been doing in the past wasn’t working the same way. Did you perceive that or are we misreading that?

>No, I think so. I don’t know if those customers with the tastes that had been around for three years really supporting nearly anything that we would try, anything that we would attempt, any of the new characters we brought up, either they weren’t shopping in that time period, or maybe like you said their tastes have changed.

>There was definitely a sort of nose-turning at the things that we had been doing successfully for the past three years, no longer viable. We saw that, and that’s what we had to react to. Yes, it’s all of that.

>Now the million-dollar question. Why did those tastes change?

>I don’t know if that’s a question for me. I think that’s a better question for retailers who are seeing all publishers. What we heard was that people didn’t want any more diversity. They didn’t want female characters out there. That’s what we heard, whether we believe that or not. I don’t know that that’s really true, but that’s what we saw in sales.

>We saw the sales of any character that was diverse, any character that was new, our female characters, anything that was not a core Marvel character, people were turning their nose up against. That was difficult for us because we had a lot of fresh, new, exciting ideas that we were trying to get out and nothing new really worked.

>It was the old things coming back in that time period, three books in particular, Spider-Man Renew Your Vows, that had Spider-Man and Mary Jane married, that worked. The Venom book worked and the Thanos book worked. You can take what you want out of who might be enjoying those three books, but it is definitely a specific type of comic book reader, comic book collector that really liked those three series.

>>91204787
Being a Marvelfag is suffering.

>>91204787
the problem wasn't so much changing characters for diversity

it was they changed a fuck ton of characters all at once.

1 or 2 no big deal

but 2 Caps, 2 Thors, 2 Spider-mans, 3 ish Spider-women, 3 Iron Men, etc is too much. especially in short time frame

It's an April Fools gag you fags.

>>91205172
>March 31

>>91205093
>What we heard was that people didn’t want any more diversity. They didn’t want female characters out there. That’s what we heard, whether we believe that or not. I don’t know that that’s really true, but that’s what we saw in sales.

For fucks sake they wanted well written comics, it didn't matter if the fucking main character had a vagina or was black.

Why is this always the go to response for SJW's when shit doesn't sell? Is it because admitting you wrote a shit book is more hurtful to your ego?

>>91205327
well if the writing is consistent and the only difference is more diversity, it's logical to assume your paying fans don't want it
it doesn't help that virtue signalling is a huge red flag since it's usually a crutch for shit writing

>>91205093
>It was the old things coming back in that time period, three books in particular, Spider-Man Renew Your Vows, that had Spider-Man and Mary Jane married, that worked.

Hold on, I thought Slott said nobody wanted those two together? How can it do well if people don't like them?

Could Slott have lied?

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>>91205137
add on top of this all the crossovers and megaevents drowning it even more. All the books he listed(Venom, Thanos, Spiderman RyV) that are selling well have the great advantage that they are mostly self contained stories that focus on a small cast. When the new Miss Marvel did that in 2014, it work, when they dragged her threw two mega events one of them being CW2 her sales crash.

>>91205097
I'm a Marvelfag and I haven't yet been affected by the sjw boogiememe. I just follow the books on my pull list and avoid shit like America, He'll Cat And Squirrel Girl. And anything written by Bendis. It's not that hard.

>>91205443
Watch they will cancel Renew Your Vows soon even with strong numbers but the new Strong woman America book will last 4 years with less than 1k sales.

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>>91205137

Much bigger problem was they were written by Tumblr. Marvel storywriting have been in the slump for many good years, but Tumblrettes managed to find a new bottom for the barrel.

No amount of diversity is going to save your comic if your story and art is shit. And they most definitely were in 99% of these new "diversity" heroes. Sure, Tumblr kept going "fuck you you just hate them women, We're the new audience not you!"- but failed to actually show that with book sales. Tumblr never puts money where their mouths are, so they're a shitty customerbase to work with. Even shittier than imageboards and thats saying something.

Nothing wrong with diversity by itself, fuck, my current favorites of modern Alan Moore's work are Nemo spinoffs of TLoEG, and those have a cool indian pirate woman as the main character. It becomes a problem when you hire new writers and artists based on their skin color and ethnicity instead of their skill level.

>>91205551
They'd never go that far, that's Bomb Queen levels of stupidity.

No, they'll have America go on for maybe two runs at most, and make the money back on TPB's.

>>91205599
Who wanted to write Black Panther a few years back and all the head honchos at Marvel loved the guys work, but said they couldn't let him because he was white?

I know I'm probably simplifying that, but it was close to what was said.

>>91205702
It might have been Bendis. Regardless you are not simplifying it, Isaac said "it's a shame you are white..." and left the poor guy spinning.

>>91205536
What you reading, brother?

>>91205702

If that really happened, then thats the problem of Marvel in a nutshell. Who the fuck cares about the skin color if the writing skill is good enough? And isn't that a sign of true equality more than fucking skin-pigment or ethnicity quotas? Because that also means a black guy/girl/transdimensionalhyperfurrykin can write a white hero as long as their writing skills themselves are good.

>>91205924
Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows
Spider-Man and Deadpool
Silk
Venom
AN Wolverine

Are what I'm pulling, and I liked that issue of X-Men Prime that was storytimed this week.

>>91205970
>Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows
Its fine, but I'm not interested in alternate universes.

>Spider-Man and Deadpool
Not a fan of Deadpool, but if its really good, I'll check it out.

>Silk
I don't give a shit about Slott's OC.

>Venom
Undoing all of Eddie's character development doesn't sound like something I'm on board with, plus the retcon has left a bad taste in my mouth regarding Symbiotes.

>AN Wolverine
I'm enjoying it, but one good read from Marvel isn't that good a scenario.

>>91206137
Spider-Man and Deadpool is really good if you like 'fun' comics. Deadpool isn't too off the walls wacky if you're afraid of that.

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>>91206137
It's Deadpool written by Joe Kelly, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

As for Slott's OC, she became 100% better when slott stopped writing here, but I can understand why you'd stay far away from her.

>>91206239
I will say this, Silk has been surprisingly good when she's not under Slott's hands.

Then again this won't get mentioned by Marvel because they don't want one of their bigger writers being blamed for the problems they're dealing with right now.

>>91206297
It sick because Thompson is literally playing Mr Fixit with the train wrecks that's Bendis and Slott keep shitting out

>>91205614
>and make the money back on TPB's
Marvel trades sell like shit.

>>91205614
>Marvel will surely make it's money back on this run of America that nobody is buying through their industry 5th place trade sales that's even getting crushed by a singular trade of DC Superhero Girls.

>>91205961
It's amazing because the best BP stories until Priest were by Don MacGregor, a white guy. Marvel has this benignly racist attitude where they only want characters of a certain ethnicity or sexuality being written by writers of that ethnicity or sexuality because only a black man can provide the authentic black experience needed to write Black Panther or whatever. Of course that leads to a ghettoization of talent and I'd imagine some are pissed about that; look at Priest after all, a guy who'd shown his chops writing stuff like Quantum and Woody and Deadpool being reduced to being the Black Writer.

But that's also a problem because the loud vocal minorities (pun only slightly intended) they're listening too will not accept anything beyond that either. Put a whtie guy on Black Panther or anything like that and the homo crusaders on Tumblr, the screeching twitter feminists and the braying racial activists on enthusiast sites will rake you over the coals for daring to put the best guy with the best ideas for the characcter on the book because they don't happen to share a similar racial or cultural make up as the character in question.

>>91207921
this you try to pander to those people and you end up being fucked no matter what you do because their entire lives are based solely on finding something to get upset about.

>>91204787
Make Mine X-Men, and fuck the rest of marvel universe

>>91205093
As usual, the dense fucks at Marvel completely miss the point.

>>91205327
>Why is this always the go to response for SJW's when shit doesn't sell? Is it because admitting you wrote a shit book is more hurtful to your ego?

It's because they literally do not understand that they are not writing good books.

The people who decide who writes what at Marvel do not actually read comics anymore, they simply presume that people are turning in work that is average or better in quality and so look for other trends.

It's a kind of selective blindness as opposed to deliberate blame shifting.

>>91205327
I think that's true to a degree, but there is definitely an element of people who either never liked it or who decided that since X sucked, it all sucks. Caving in to those people is a huge over-correction and nobody wins, even the people who think they won.

If this is truly the lesson Marvel learned instead of, you know, constant relaunches and events wore people out, we're going to get a line up of overly safe books. Sure, maybe less of shit you hate like America, but also less stuff like Vision and Ms. Marvel (which was actually good pre-Secret War).

>>91206332
Isn't that literally every writer who isn't Bendis and Slott?

>>91205599
>a problem when you hire new writers and artists based on their skin color
They didn't even do that, really. They hired a bunch of mediocre fan artists and reused their old hacks because they spouted the right politics.

This wasn't even affirmative action, it was just "You're the guys complaining and saying we're shit, you fix it"

Marvel spent the last 5 years courting people that constantly said they hated just about everything about comic books while throwing their existing consumers under the bus and now they're wonder what's wrong.

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>>91205702
It was Hickman I think,after his appearances in FF and new avengers Hickman wanted to do a black panther king of the dead series but got shot down and Left marvel.Shame too his T challa is far more compelling than Coates

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>>91205599
>Tumblr never puts money where their mouths are
THIS.

>>91210154
Anon, I get what you are saying, but no they weren't, those were meh and shit, respectively.

>>91204787
marvel's going to copy rebirth after it's already dropped down to new 52 levels comics are dead

>>91210305
>Vision
>Kamala
>meh and shit respectively
You're just embarrassing yourself, kiddo.

>>91210369
>after it's already dropped down to new 52 levels
I'm pretty sure we're well into DCYou levels, senpai.

>>91210374
Speaking in third person doesn't make you sound smart, mate.

>>91210305
Well """meme'd""", """"contrarian!""""

>>91204821
this
the only thing changing now is going full pandering towards status quo

There are some shit ty pushes to diversify, ill take that over Bendis and Slott garbage.

>>91206137
>I don't give a shit about Slott's OC.
Seriously mate, the second she got written by someone other than Slott she became a Real Human Bean and not just OC fapbait #46754

>>91210154
I agree. Marvel's problems are more than just too much diversity. It certainly doesn't help when so very many of the big leaguers are replaced by minorities at the same time and so quickly. But it's made worse by the quality and how it's handled and promoted. Aka the shitty writes who write shitty stories that make people hate said characters. And the marketers who market these shittly written characters as the greatest things ever in the history of mankind and the REAL versions. Marvel needs better writers, editors, and PR. It also doesn't help when they keep making books expensive (and apparently going to increase the number of $10 specials) thus limiting which books readers can buy. And not to mention events that not only interrupt stories, but are poorly and hastily written and constantly delayed. They need better structure.

>>91210555
>Slott is still on ASM
>it will be 2087 and Slott will still be on ASM

>>91210290
See, that's a nice slap at Marvel but if you really want something damning, try to find the screencap of Spencer lamenting that "Wednesday Warriors" are so much more willing to spend than tumblr/twitter progressives

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>>91210718

>>91205702
It would be understandable if they wanted someone from Kenya or something for a more authentic voice, but they go and hire Coates who's from fucking Baltimore.

>>91205093

To be fair poeple liked the new Ghost rider til you made him a fucking side character in his own book

>>91204787
>we're going to start writing books where all the heroes you know and love are back

I don't know if they should be applauded or slapped for even needing to fix their mistake.

>>91210541

>the only thing changing now is going full pandering towards status quo

What do you mean by that, exactly?

But yeah, if you're going to clean up an organization, it's entirely necessary to not overlook the human garbage in the cleaning efforts. Even if you tell them that they can't make Captain America into a Nazi in an effort to push a narrative that western culture and white people should be blindly condemned on ideological grounds, you still have a team out of out-of-touch writers who've been pumping out terrible content for years. Seriously, if I were the CEO of Marvel, some of the stuff put out by Marvel writers would cause me to fly into a rage and fire them on the spot simply on account of it being so ridiculously low quality. People have been laughing at Marvel and shaking their heads. They're going to need to get rid of the laughing stocks and bring in some actual talent (which might not be easy, considering the environment that they helped to create in the artistic community).

>>91207921
>the book because they don't happen to share a similar racial or cultural make up as the character in question.
It's also stupid, how a black guy who grew up in the US know more about a black guy who come from an invented African country than a white guy who also grew up in the US. Thinking that "they are both black so they have the same culture" it's nearly on the level of "Asian arr rook same".

>>91211052
How new are you?

>>91210978
>I don't want to read Whor, even if it was the best written comic ever.
You wouldn't read any comic even if it was the best written comic ever, you just come here to be triggered by out of context pannel.

>>91211197
Oh, so you just realized the party of the plantation is still, in fact, racist?

>>91205093
>we had a lot of fresh, new, exciting ideas

No. No, you didn't. Every single time you tried it devolved into a mouthpiece. Sometimes you got further along, but it became the same beige shit. Fuck what happened to Kamala and injecting her into events and teams to sell books. Fuck what happened to Robbie and throwing him around in team ups. Fuck Cho and his inconsistent characterisation.

>>91211197
Well they do. And they all know kung fu. Stop trying to appropriate asian culture, you idiot!

>>91211230
Would you read a comic about how women should stay in the kitchen, if it was the best written comic ever?

You only pretend to be interested in comics to push your feminism and nonwhite supremacy ideas.

>>91211287
>Not wanting to read "Kitchen Mom: Extreme Cuisine Escapades"

Casul

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>>91211287
>You only pretend to be interested in comics
I probably started reading comics when you were still in your father ballsack. I grew up reading Asterix so go fuck yourself with a cactus.

I shat on a cake and then offered the cake to people, but none of them wanted to eat it. I suppose people just don't like cake for some reason.

>>91211475
>it's the fault of the bakery across the road, for accepting returns if they got a bad cake

>>91205093
>character that was diverse
why do people talk like that, it sound dodgy and more racist than saying "non white"

>>91205137
Changing characters instead of creating new one is always a problem, literally impossible to defend it.

>>91205137
>>91211759

Yep. Look at New Super-Man. That's the kind of push you should be making, and they did the complete opposite thing.

>>91210290
are American conventions different from the rest? Around there convention are giant supermarket, and people who attend are definitely the juicy money demographic.

>>91211780
There's been an influx of cosplayers IIRC.

http://gwillowwilson.com/post/159094504658/so-about-that-whole-thing

>LONG COMIC BOOK RANT INCOMING:

>Okay some things need to be said:

>1. If you’re going to write a smug thunk-piece about the “failure” of “diversity” in comics, maybe don’t use the cover image of a book that’s had 4 collections on the NYT graphic books bestseller list, won a Hugo and cleaned up at Angouleme. Just because you HOPE it’s on the chopping block, oh Riders of the Brohirrim, doesn’t mean it is.

>2. I will tell you exactly why Ms Marvel works: it didn’t set out to be Ms Marvel. We were originally going to pitch it as a 10 issue limited series. I had a 3 issue exit strategy because I assumed we were going to get canned. There was no “diversity initiative” anywhere–getting that thing made at all was a struggle. It was a given that any character without AT LEAST a 20-year history would tank. Everybody, myself included, assumed this series was going to work out the same way.

>3. That freed us–by “us” I mean the whole creative team–to tell exactly the story we wanted to tell. We had nothing to lose, nothing to overcome but low expectations. That gave us room to break a lot of rules.

>>91211842
>STUFF THAT IS DIFFICULT TO REPLICATE AND IMPOSSIBLE TO PLAN:

>1. Unexpected audiences. We are at a point in history when the role of religion is at a tremendous inflection point. What I didn’t realize was that the anxieties felt by young Muslims are also felt by young Mormons, evangelicals, orthodox Jews, and others. A h-u-g-e reason Ms Marvel has struck the chord it has is because it deals with the role of traditionalist faith in the context of social justice, and there was–apparently–an untapped audience of people from a wide variety of faith backgrounds who were eager for a story like this. Nobody could have predicted or planned for that. That’s being in the right place at the right time with the right story burning a hole in your pocket. Plenty of other stuff I’ve written and liked has fallen with a huge thud. That’s the norm. Exceptions are great when they happen, but hard to plan.

>2. The paradox of low expectations. The bar was set pretty low for Ms Marvel, but because of Ms Marvel’s success, that bar got set much higher for similar books that came later.

>>91211856
>STUFF THAT IS ENTIRELY AVOIDABLE:

>1. This is a personal opinion, but IMO launching a legacy character by killing off or humiliating the original character sets the legacy character up for failure. Who wants a legacy if the legacy is shitty?

>2. Diversity as a form of performative guilt doesn’t work. Let’s scrap the word diversity entirely and replace it with authenticity and realism. This is not a new world. This is *the world.*

>3. Never try to be the next whoever. Be the first and only you. People smell BS a mile away.

>4. The direct market and the book market have diverged. Never the twain shall meet. We need to accept this and move on, and market accordingly.

>5. Not for nothing, but there is a direct correlation between the quote unquote “diverse” Big 2 properties that have done well (Luke Cage, Black Panther, Ms Marvel, Batgirl) and properties that have A STRONG SENSE OF PLACE. It’s not “diversity” that draws those elusive untapped audiences, it’s *particularity.* This is a vital distinction nobody seems to make. This goes back to authenticity and realism.

>AND FINALLY

>On a practical level, this is not really a story about “diversity” at all. It’s a story about the rise of YA comics. If you look at it that way, the things that sell and don’t sell (AND THE MARKETS THEY SELL IN VS THE MARKETS THEY DON’T SELL IN) start to make a different kind of sense.

>>91204787
I'd love some female characters, just stop hiring shitty writers.

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>G. Willow Wilson fired shots at Bendis

>>91211873
>3. Never try to be the next whoever. Be the first and only you. People smell BS a mile away.
Like when Hawkeye came out and every three new marvel titles there was a clone that tried as hard as it could to be just like it.

>>91211842
>It was a given that any character without AT LEAST a 20-year history would tank.

>MM is tanking.
>Every book featuring her now not by GWW has her written like a controlling asshole which only makes people not like the character more.
>Yet another reboot will come and they will alienate more readers
.
Who is running editorial at Marvel?

>>91204787
Actually what people didn't want was shit writing, shit art, forced characters and liberal politics shoved down their throats every time they open a book.

Its amazing how you can watch the quality rise and fall in real time at marvel by reading the gwenpool book.

when Girihiru draws it and gwenpool is a cute teenager the quality goes up, the second another artist from marvel picks it up and gwenpool becomes a 28 year old trucker drawn by social justice picasso the quality of the issue immediately drops.

Marvel could learn a thing or two from this, Perhaps that as a visual medium people are drawn to good art with clean lines instead of tumblr noses and strange human shapes. Perhaps they could learn that when they invest in their product they get a better product in return. Or at the very least they could learn that people like watching cute girls doing cute things.

They won't learn any of this. instead they'll continue printing comics that look like watercolor vomit and printer errors.

>>91212115
This mainly goes back to the idea that they don't want to make artists into stars and in turn claim they don't have anymore superstar artists.

>>91204787
Incidentally, it's more of the classic PR that the fuckboy Beevort thinks that sells comics

>>91212115
Mostly a money thing to as Guri twins are more expensive than some really popular tumblr artist.

>>91211842
Ms Marvel was a fluke but at least editorial had her back.

The whole 20 year legacy thing is bullshit, plenty of Robins replaced Dick, new GL for Earth but nobody likes a shitty replacement when the original legacy is just fucking fine as it is.

Unless they're white men and that's where they fucked themselves over.

>>91212355

I read that as her trying to say that the overall assumption at Marvel is that characters without a long history will tank, and that she bought into it too, not that that belief is true.

I think that makes sense if you look at the way Marvel is treating newer characters/some of these new launches. It's like they expect them to fail, so they wave them around as proof of how "diverse" they are as a company, and then put no real effort into finding amazing writers for the stories before quietly canceling them. Marvel gets the PR/tumblr credit for having diverse characters and then can pretty easily give up on them. It's pretty much a given that a lot of "fans" on tumblr will scream about a book being progressive (like the new Hawkeye solo or America) and then not actually buy or read the fucking book.

What Marvel doesn't seem to fucking understand is that diversity doesn't mean shit if you don't have a good story. Making a character be Muslim or gay or disabled or whatever can give them an interesting viewpoint or a unique way of interacting with the world, but it doesn't give you carte blanche to not put any work into what you're doing. They still have to be a well fleshed out character first and foremost, whether they're rich and white or poor and latino or whatever the fuck.

Marvel pulls this shit where they go, "Hey, look! This character is black and gay and look how super progressive we are!" and then they let the story itself suck shit because they think that if they make the character not white or whatever, they don't have to put any work in. The issue isn't that people hate diversity, the issue is that the diverse "stories" they're putting out blow chunks more often than not, and desu this whole thing reads as them pulling out a tired ass excuse to explain away why their shit isn't selling instead of taking a hard look at what they're doing and realizing that their stories just don't stack up to what other companies and creators are putting out.

>>91210891
He's completely right - The whales of the industry are white guys with OCD like collection to pull numerous titles compared to some tumblr that shows up to flip throw SQ, pose for a selfie and then go back to being a vapid waste of space.

>>91211964
I used to think Axel Alonso was a good editor, but now I question his role in all the good comics he ever edited before.

>>91212654
In Vertigo's case, it helps that it was a small line.with little to no interference, as opposed to Marvel where there's multiple bullshit demands.

>>91211944
>Like when Hawkeye came out and every three new marvel titles there was a clone
Yes. EXACTLY like that. Or Batgirl of Burnside and the entire DCYou fiasco that followed THAT bit of lightning in a bottle.

This isn't HARD.

>>91212809
You know, I think we need to tally up the titles that seem like they keep going back to the well in such a short time.

Like Spider-Gwen, then Gwen Stacy superhero variants, then Gwenpool, then Gwen Monster variants.

Or how there's going to be another Deadpool Kills the Marvel Universe.

Or how there's AvX and IvX, a Secret Wars sequel and a Civil War sequel.

Or how there's Superior Spider-Man, then there's Axis and Superior Iron Man, and then there's Hydra Cap and Infamous Iron Man.

>>91212115
>he second another artist from marvel picks it up and gwenpool becomes a 28 year old trucker drawn by social justice picasso
This is often an issue with fill-in artists at the big two; and sometimes you just sit there and shake your head at the Editorial choices. For example I dropped Silk the second they made Tana Ford the full time artist and frankly can't imagine what they were thinking.

On the other hand I can't fucking stand Booth's art so all the fill-in's so far have improved Titans IMHO.

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>>91213047
At this point Marvel the comics is just taking the bullet whether its from left or right side of the spectrum for Marvel the movie studio since it is their major cashcow which is sad
They are sacrificing the comics to get good PR and rake in the movie dough

>>91213047
>When did Marvel's sales slump actually start, though?

>It wasn't when they began introducing diverse characters, it was when Civil War II came along and became the last straw for people sick of events.

It actually wasn't; the sales slump started with ANAD. Titles had strong first issue (and in some cases, second issue) sales. But sales on most titles fell to the levels of pre-relaunch, or below.

The biggest problem is that Marvel during the Quesada and Alonso years managed to devalue itself, and everything Wilson said in
>>91211842
>>91211856
>>91211873
really does highlight what Marvel's problem is. They see something successful, they try to make multiple copies of it at the same time. Relaunches increase sales of books? Let's keep relaunching! More new directions! And then no one cares or are fatigued by it.

Also this was an article in January last year, which was months before Civil War II was out:

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/01/27/retailers-complain-about-collapsing-marvel-and-dc-sales/

Things were getting really bad at that point. If DC hadn't course-corrected and done Rebirth I don't know what could've happened.

>>91213047
>white fuckboys

How old are you to actually type something like this out?

>>91212905
>they keep going back to the well
That's a different problem: with Batgirl of Burnside DC scored big with something that was lighter, quirky, and had a cartoon-y anime inspired style so they cranked out a bunch of stuff that WASN'T BAD (mostly); but that tanked because there just isn't that big an audience for it.

Likewise Whor sold very well for Marvel so they decided to DO MORE OF THAT! But, again, the problem isn't with killing off Banner or Stark or making Cap Hydra ... it's doing all of that ALL AT THE SAME TIME!

Secret Wars II was well written and well received ( honestly it was the best Big Event they've put out in years ); Civil War II, on the other hand, was a naked cash grab that they shit out so they could have a book with a title similar to the Avengers movie that was just hitting theaters but I'd bet dollars to donuts that the beancounters were saying, "dude, people loved it when we did SWII so they'll totally love it when we redo CW!"

So you've got multiple problems: not understanding your audience; over-saturation/milking the shit out of anything that sells; rehashing tired ideas over and over and over.

All of that comes down to the shit tier editorial they've got running the show ( also they've had a serious talent drain over the last few years with people either going DC exclusive or fucking off to Image/Dark Horse to do Creator Owned stuff; but I don't see anyone coming back once they've got any kind of street cred as long as the management is such a shit-show).

>VP of sales said this
>VP of sales
>Whose job is to get people to buy Marvel books
>No one is buying Marvel books
>he's objectively shit at his job

Why should we take this guy seriously, exactly?

>>91213146
How sensitive are you to actually be offended by something like that?

>>91213255
I'm not offended, just wondering about the mentality of someone who would actually type some cringey shit like that

>>91213130
motherfucking this, they dont care about the comics at this point as long as they have something to appease the most vocal group and which is why you would see a lot of movie critics praising marvel movies rather than DC aside from the questionable plots on dc movies

>>91213255
>I-I know you are b-but what am I??
Confirmed for 12 years old.

>>91211140
See, this is the thing that confused me. Marvel's already been down the road of changing up the status quo in removing things that readers wanted (characters they enjoyed and were following) and how it reflected sales.
Example - X-men in the late 80's / early 90's when they went through the Siege Perilous and the whole team was separated to have solo focus stories written about them... with changed personalities.... for close to 2 full years of real time.

People buying X-men for a team book suddenly said "fuck this shit" and sales went ROCK bottom. On the topic of the scientific mechanics of comics and economics, you'd think Marvel would be as big an expert as anyone on the planet.

>>91213197
>Likewise Whor sold very well for Marvel so they decided to DO MORE OF THAT

It wasn't just Thor, it was Ms. Marvel, too. And Black Panther was Marvel's best-selling new series last year. But those are well-written books. Clearly people do buy diverse comics if they're actually GOOD.

Marvel's problem is that they think people will buy any garbage as long as it has a woman or a brown person in the lead. And now that they've discovered that, no, you actually have to make a decent comic, too, they're decided that's too hard, and they're going to blame minorities for the shittiness of their product.

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>>91213275
>which is why you would see a lot of movie critics praising marvel movies rather than DC
You look pretty silly claiming that they're all bought off (or working some other agenda) out of one side of your mouth while honking off about that big win at the Oscars out the other, senpai.

>>91213278
>>91213271

Don't stop the tears, samefag.

>cringey

Slow day on Reddit, huh?

>>91213298
Im not saying they bought them famalam im saying that no big reviewer would call shit on them since they have the sjw squad on their side due to their comic pandering

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>>91213301
Cringe

>>91213197
>it's doing all of that ALL AT THE SAME TIME!

Yeah, that's the other problem. In fact I found this quote from Mark Gruenwald from when John Walker was introduced:

>"With Iron Man, for example, we had James Rhodes take the lead character's place, and we did it for two years—which I'm sure was about a year and a half longer than anybody thought we would do it. In Thor we had Beta Ray Bill take Thor's place for two or three issues. So, this is the sort of thing that has been done to shake up people before. You know, I'm responsible for it in Iron Man and I was editor of Thor at the time of Beta Ray Bill, and believe me it's a trick I know works because I've seen it work a number of times. It's just to get you noticed so that people who don't normally read it will say, "Oh, I heard something about this, let me read it and see." And with luck, folks will get hooked on the storyline."

But the thing with these is that they all happened organically or semi-organically. Replacing Steve with John Walker was intended to boost sales, but it came about because they set up John Walker and they set up the idea of Cap not wanting to be involved in missions he didn't agree with. Rhodey replacing Tony worked because he was around for a long while, & Tony being an alcoholic was already established years before, and the idea of former alcoholics relapsing is a realistic thing.

But it also wouldn't have worked if they had Bill replace Thor for a long time while also having Rhodey replace Tony at the same time and John Walker replacing Steve Rogers and have Peter wear only his alien costume for as long, etc etc.

>honestly it was the best Big Event they've put out in years

Hey, I do agree with that, even though I think it's flawed. It really is better than all the other linewide events Marvel did in the last six or more years. Like I would rather read Hickman's Secret Wars a second time before I ever read Original Sin, Fear Itself or any of Bendis' events again.

>>91213281
The problem is most of the old guard who could've guided them are gone from Marvel. Most are at DC, some are retired, etc.

>>91213309
>no big reviewer would call shit on them
You should go check out the reviews on Iron Fist, senpai. It'll do you good.

>>91213397
talking about movies here famalam not netflix shit

>>91213397
You mean the one that got shat on because it had a white male first and bad directing second? because thats what happens when you dont appease them thats why they gotta sacrifice the comics for that shit. I mean if they had made a new legacy character for iron fist like a black latina woman who is the strongest human in marvel they would have had less of the white male outcry since those idiots would think that the new character will replace the white male in the long run

>>91213458
Movies are seperated from the TV/comics/animation division since a year or two ago.

Actually this bring up another question, back when the movie division was still connected with the rest of Marvel did that mean the rest of Marvel got off lightly with reviewers? Cause I started getting the impression reviewers and stuff started turning on non-movie Marvel in the last two years.

>>91204787
Guess that whole 'pissing off readers gets them to buy more comics from us' thing was bullshit, eh? Funny how the company was the last to know.

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But Tumblr told me that white males are a minority in comics

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>>91213509

>>91213352
>if they had Bill replace Thor for a long time while also having Rhodey replace Tony at the same time and John Walker replacing Steve Rogers
RIght?

Now consider:
Thor - Whor
Hulk - Jen/Cho
Ghost Rider - Robbie
Iron Man -Riri/Doom
Cap -Sam/HydraCap
Wolverine - Laura
Hawkeye - Katie*
Wasp - Nadia*
Nova - Sam*
Spider-Man - Miles*
*these are coexistent rather than replacements; but they're featured in the solo comics with the character's name in the title.

And, god help me, I'm probably forgetting a few (Fantastic Four just evaporated because of movie rights).

AND that's not even getting into things like Tony Stark being broke and Peter Parker being a Billionaire or the X-Men being permanently replaced with the time displaced O-5 or ...

That's an awful lot of shit to change around ...

>>91213507
>>Movies are seperated from the TV/comics/animation division since a year or two ago.
yeah but it wont stop the suits from using the comics as scapegoats as long as they get the movie cash
>>Actually this bring up another question, back when the movie division was still connected with the rest of Marvel did that mean the rest of Marvel got off lightly with reviewers? Cause I started getting the impression reviewers and stuff started turning on non-movie Marvel in the last two years.
I noticed that too and thats why i think theyre using them as scapegoats now

>>91213545
>Cap -Sam/HydraCap
Right. Having the HydraCap plot anywhere else in time woud've been fine. The idea of Steven turning evil is cool and scary and worth to tell...

But If you have the black cap fighting police brutality and the white one be a fucking nazi, willingly or unwillingly you're sending a really fucked up political message.

>>91213197
>Secret Wars II was well written and well received

>>91205093
>They didn’t want female characters out there.

They didn't want female COPIES of traditional characters. You want to make ORIGINAL female characters, DO IT! But we were overwhelmed with Wolverchick, Whor, Iron Girl, Spider-Gwen (fucking REALLY?), Loki-Lass, the list goes on.

>We saw the sales of any character that was diverse, any character that was new, our female characters, anything that was not a core Marvel character, people were turning their nose up against.

Because you fucked core characters off, or fucked with them too much! Thor turns into Odinson - Whiny Bitch of Thunder. Hulk turns into Cho - Dumbed-Down Twink of Green. Spider-Man turns into yet another fucking billionaire douchebag. Stark uploaded or whatever the fuck recycled idea from Ultimate came along. The FF are busy not being used by Marvel to teach Fox a lesson that Fox don't give a shit about.

Story arcs are now just long ads for the next story arc. Look at Whiny Bitch of Thunder! People are pissed he didn't become Thor again because the ending was so weak!

Get back to writing stories that are interesting, with art that's good (not full of retarded pig faces by people who draw like they're masturbating with a crayon.)

Stop preaching at people (look, kids, Kamala and Amadeus are just like you!) and let the characters 'speak' and people make up their own minds.

Go back in time when every year DIDN'T have an 'event' that shoehorned every book in for the sake of sales. "Oh, look! A universe-ending event! I can't help but wonder what The Ringer thinks about it all! Guess I'd better add these 379 books to my list this month to get the full story!"

Go back to the time when Marvel wasn't about coming up with filler for the next trade paperback, but about stories. About art. About wonder. THEY sold. THEY gained loyal readers.

Stop creating comics as an end product for shareholders and start creating comics as if you were a comics fan again. The rest will take care of itself.

>>91213655
>>Stop creating comics as an end product for shareholders
sorry anon no can do comics is a buisness model now and suits are in charge

>>91205327
>Is it because admitting you wrote a shit book is more hurtful to your ego?
Yes. SJW is the cult of oneself.
Of course, there's more to it than that, but it all stems from the same egoistic/egotistic/egocentric core.

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Well don't just discuss, post pages!

>>91213197
>Secret Wars II was well written and well received
Did you mean Secret Wars III. SWII was pure garbage

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>>91213871
I still can't believe that page got past an editor. If Marguerite Bennett tried to do that shit in a real novel she would get laughed out of the fucking publishing building.

>>91214008
Not him, but was better than hackman's though (which was Secret Wars IV apparently).
The salvageable part on this last one were some of the minis that came out of it.

>>91213586
>Having the HydraCap plot anywhere else in time woud've been fine.
Depends for how long they'd stretch it. Steve hasn't been proper Captain America for too long at a time in the last decade, I'd say he maybe spent 5 years of those as Cap, if that much. And that's after brubaker's retcon fest.

>>91211842
>oh Riders of the Brohirrim

You pathetic, smug, condescending shitstain.

>>91213655

> Because you fucked core characters off, or fucked with them too much! Thor turns into Odinson - Whiny Bitch of Thunder. Hulk turns into Cho - Dumbed-Down Twink of Green. Spider-Man turns into yet another fucking billionaire douchebag. Stark uploaded or whatever the fuck recycled idea from Ultimate came along. The FF are busy not being used by Marvel to teach Fox a lesson that Fox don't give a shit about.

Willow Wilson just made a similar point:

> "1. This is a personal opinion, but IMO launching a legacy character by killing off or humiliating the original character sets the legacy character up for failure. Who wants a legacy if the legacy is shitty?"

http://gwillowwilson.com/post/159094504658/so-about-that-whole-thing

>>91214292
Hickman's series was such a mess. Starting with all that buildup that led to Cap going crazy old man and killing Stark in the fight to the death while the world is dying around them. Then the first few issues of SW seemed good but everyone was killed off or forgotten to lead to a Doom/Reed wankfest that felt out of place without knowing the context plus all those plot lines that never got picked up on, mainly with Cyclops.

>>91213537
I couldn't really believe the outrage at Hydra Cap, like how could that even be? But then I talked to a friend who doesn't read comics but loves the movies, he was almost hysteric about it since it would mean MCU Cap would by Hydra as well
I succeeded in convincing him that it obviously wouldn't be the case but still. Casuals really don't know shit about how comics work

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It's is my fault? NO NO ITS THE READERS

>>91217847
I never read a comic that was so far up its own ass than Hickman's recent rampage through the Marvel universe.

In a way, I agree with Marvel that I'm sick and tired of 'legacy' heroes replacing the heroes I want to read about.

I've been reading Hulk comics for like 20 years. Does Marvel actually think I'd want to switch from reading about Bruce Banner to whoever they've got as the green goliath now? Ditto the same thing with Thor. A small detour is okay, or an unprecedented change that flows organically from the core story, but the fact that Marvel expects me to dole out cash for characters I don't care about and that are actively wiping out the ones I do care about...just seems silly.

Same thing applies to new readers. What is, without a doubt, the number one thing that gets youngsters interested in these characters? The movies. So imagine being a nine year old watching, I dunno, Thor 3 or something and you run out to the comic store because you love Thor now. Guess what? There's not a single Thor comic on the stands that resembles the movie you just watched (we'll pretend this kid doesn't know what a limited series is and doesn't pick up on Unworthy Thor).

It seems like they're shooting themselves in the foot both ways.

>>91217847
>plus all those plot lines that never got picked up on, mainly with Cyclops.
Hickman introducing that Phoenix egg stuff just to show what a powerful badass Doom was for being able to kill a Phoenix by himself will always be funny to me. I feel sorry for everyone who thought he was setting up a rebirth moment in the climax.

>>91218434
One was life.
The other was death.

>>91218270
Comics have used that "AND NOTHING WILL EVER BE THE SAME" fake-out since the 60s with Superdickery and stuff like that. People who know/read comics actively know that what they usually see is a gimmick.

>>91212115
I don't entirely agree.
The art quality drops, sometimes to okay (the Miles crossover) to WHATS WRONG WITH YOUR FACE levels (Blade).
They are definitely filler issues, but the writing remains strong and they are still fun one or two issue adventures.

When does the next issue of champions come out?
That comic is hilariously bad.

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>>91218522
>Marvel wanted to bring in Tumblr.

>Got pedophiles instead.

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>Be a company that has a big diversity push and espouses liberal values
>First time your CEO has been seen publicly in 30 years is to support President Trump
Makes perfect sense.

>>91205327
Moon Girl (the solo series) is a well written comic.

Are you buy that?

>>91218522
You should stick your dick in a red ant hill.

>>91218522
That's literally a sexy kid. They clearly didn't think this through.
I mean, now that I've seen it I'm totally going to read it and jack off to it, but I doubt I'm their intended audience.

>>91219297
Probably this Wednesday. Usually comes out the first week each month.

>>91219669
It's an edit.

Literally only pedophiles like that book.

>>91219966
Well that's disappointing.

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>>91219669
well, they insist on drawing her with skin tight suits

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>>91220131
or drawing her with a big ass

they took the term ''moon'' too far

>>91220153
>>91220153
>big ass
Come on, that can't be true bec-
>looks at first panel
you might have a point

>>91220131
She is a superhero, of course she will get a skin tight suit.

How did that Iron Girl or whatever they're calling her turn out? I was somewhat interested because I honestly never really cared about Tony Stark.

>>91204821
This this this this this!

It's not because they were diverse. It's because you idiots hired garbage writers and artists, and the editors weren't doing their jobs!

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>>91218522

>>91211780
People at cons don't buy comic book stuff. Overwhelmingly they're there for fanart, anime figureines, and stuffed animals.

>>91220433
It's a combination of the three. Shitty writers who can't tell stories for shit (even their supposedly """"good"""" ones like Slott and Bendis). But they were also pushing characters I simply don't care about, so on top of the shitty writers, they gave me no reason to want to read.

On the flip side of that coin though, now character I care about will be written like shit.

Though, being a Spider-Fag I guess it's just business as usual for me.

>>91220433
>This this this this this!
Jesus fucking christ, go back to le reddit.

>>91217847
>>91218434
>>91218488
I mean, the whole thing that starts with Avengers going around to kill other worlds?! What did people even expect from that?

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>>91204787
Wew when will the ride end /co/ ?

>Rich the Leech posted a follow-up article that was nothing but a Ryan Higgins tweet thread
Now this is comics journalism

>>91222802
People at Marvel are upset with Jude:

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/04/02/marvels-mark-waid-weighs-face-punching-debate-not-nazis-bleeding-cool-reporters/

>>91223049
Does Marvel not have a social media policy for its employees?

>>91218270
That's true and it was also obvious from the start that Cosmic Cube shit would be involved because Standoff was right before it.

But I think it's funny because it's a case of fans getting mad online not actually helping sales of the book.

>>91223049
>Razor Ramon avatar
Truly, cancer, all of them

https://twitter.com/KingImpulse/status/848519757166981121

>Marvel did everything wrong. Comic readers also did everything wrong. Now please give me new job now ComicsAlliance is kaput

>>91220713
>oh no, it's le boogeyman!
Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

>>91211873
>done well
What kind of shitty metric is being use to claim they have done anything beyond not terrible?

>>91225093
Sales of course.

>>91223874
>stand against immigration,
What if I only stand against illegal immigration does that still make me evil?

>>91225093
I don't know if you noticed but she already hinted at it in >>91211856
The books she names as successes were books that they didn't expect to do that well and somehow have some kind of growth or at the least, consistency in sales in some area (like digital and/or TPBs)

>>91225153
As in, what's the standard for doing well? Except for the brief honeymoon period, they all peformed worse than their counterparts, let it be weekly or cummulative sells. And don't take it wrong, I don't mind them existing and then getting bought, but it seems they are still trying to hype up numbers which other books would have been on the chopping block.

>>91225222
Of course, who the hell wants to prevent people from breaking the law, using up your resources, and reducing employment?

>>91225288
Anything that sells above cancellation numbers is doing well.

>>91213655
That was fuckin' beautiful, man.

>>91223558
Hey thats the Journey into Misery guy.

>>91218522

What the hell is going on? Why is she wearing that? I thought Moon Girl was a quirky adventure romp aimed for a younger audience?
How old is she supposed to be? She looks 10, 12 at most, and is wearing a thong?

I usually go out of my way to defend artistic choices but I'm thoroughly disgusted by this.

>>91225490

Oh, it's an edit? The art is so poor to begin with I couldn't even tell.

>>91225288
>As in, what's the standard for doing well?

If an event or A-list title is doing Ms. Marvel numbers, that would be fucking bad. Ms. Marvel doing Ms. Marvel numbers may be okay because she wasn't expected to sell well.

>>91211043
Not enough to buy his books. None of his runs sold well, even when Tradd was on art.

>>91213047

I don't think anyone thinks buying a book by Nick Spencer is going to upset SJW.

>>91211873
>>91211917
She's not wrong about that. At all.

>>91213655
>Wolverchick
Funny part is X23 was established firmly on her own for years before she was All New Wolverine. But now most of her previous character has been thrown away.

>>91223504
IF he wanted a clickbait SJWer writing for Bleeding Cool, Rich should have just hired Kirk Boxleitner (who is an actual fucking writer for an actual newspaper).

At least Boxleitner would be more amusing with his rants

>>91225881
>micropenis guy is actually employed by a newspaper
I imagine the interview process had to be awkward on the part of the interviewer.

>>91225881
Kirk hates Rich Johnston and vice versa. You'd sooner see Anita Sarkaasian showing up on Alex Jones's show than seeing Kirk write for Rich.

>>91217444
Willow really tore apart that article

>>91225382
>>91225553
Which goes to my hyping issue which I feel is what is ultimately distorting their view of what should be done in the future with the medium. If not making shit is too hard for them, at least value the shit you are making correctly so you make the better shit.

>>91225847
And that fucking sucks because x-23 as a character was far more interesting than what we have been getting lately.

>>91225847
She's not alone. The exact same thing happened to Amadeus Cho.

>>91226363
It was a bit of a monkey's paw since Laura fans did want writers to move away forever from the trigger scent and murder-angst, just not by giving her an entirely different, quippier personality.

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>>91218522

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>>91227388

>>91213586

In the year of Kirby's centennial too.

pol wins again

>>91227724
>I'm the eighth-smartest person in the world
>yeah, good luck with that
what did they even mean by this

Marvel should have started making new shit instead of re-hashing old characters with a twist.

I love Spider-Man, but I'm fucking tired of him now after the Spider-verse crap. I've gotten to the point where I'm like "no more spider-man please."

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>Have built-in fanbase for decades of white men
>Start to insult the white men in all your publications and wipe your ass with their favorite characters to give them a nice diversified tinge of brown
>Sales begin to plummet

UH OH SPAGHETTIO

>>91230461
You could just not buy Spider-Man comics anymore. It's not like he has anything to do with the main event books anymore.

>>91205093
>It was the old things coming back in that time period, three books in particular, Spider-Man Renew Your Vows, that had Spider-Man and Mary Jane married, that worked

I'm sure there were tons of autistic screeching moments at Marvel when they found that out

>>91230860
The biggest offenders are the obnoxious white women brigade with Squirrel Girl, Hellcat, Mockingbird, and Wasp.

>>91230928
That's what I'm doing. I haven't touched a Marvel comic in a long-ass time. They just aren't publishing anything that interests me anymore.

>>91211759
Replacing existing characters is impossible to defend, but introducing new characters is unfeasible.
The time to introduce whole new characters not tied to existing ones in any way whatsoever and have considerable chances at getting reader acceptance ended around the 90's crash.

Marvel is pretty much between a rock and a hard place. Legacy characters is all they can really use.

>>91231169

hmmm those used to be favorites of white men too. to bad land whales got a hold of them.

>>91231264
Jessica Jones is a relatively new-ish character, it just takes the right concept.

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It's almost like appealing to these sort of people was a bad idea or something.

>>91226419
>Laura fans did want writers to move away forever from the trigger scent and murder-angst

No, at least I didn't. Fuck those "fans".

>>91231604
Yes, also Sentry to an extent. It can happen, but it's very hard.

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>>91231778
Poor S/D doesn't have the self-awareness to realize that he too would eventually be up against the wall.
>>91231808
Come on man, Kyle/Yost, Liu, Gage, and Hopeless all rehashed the same story beats. She needed out of that rut.

>>91231214
I haven't picked one up either. Last one I tried was that one issue of Renew Your Vows. Other than that, I just free read at my ((new)) LCS.

>>91231808
>Laura fans did want writers to move away forever from the trigger scent and murder-angst

...Wait, I'm not a fan now?

>>91227724
God I fucking hate chink Hulk.

>>91231830
Sentry never sold.

>>91232010
She didn't need to turn into the Wolverine - that's a slap in the face for people following her story and wanted to see her travel the world of the more unfortunate mutants. The appeal of X-23's stories was seeing that not all mutants were given the chance as the X-Men; that they had to bite and claw their way a lot harder than anyone else. X-23 as Wolverine doesn't have half the appeal her X-23 books used to have.

>>91226042

Well Jonathan Mcintosh contributed to infowars. Does that count?

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>>91211348
There's a Korean Cookbook in a comic book format.

Not to mention the Nip's fetish for food. There's a good amount of manga that's about food.

>>91233117
>Not to mention the Nip's fetish for food. There's a good amount of manga that's about food.

That's the advantage Asian comics have over western. There's something for everyone about everything.

Almost literally.

>>91220426
Are you new? Nothing written by Bendis for a decade has been worth reading.

>>91204787
Good riddance

>>91227724
Wait, who are the other seven?

>>91233161
I have yet to find a non-composite subject matter where a bit of digging didn't reveal a book or two, and even most composite have a book to them. Having a culture of comics artstyle being directed at mostly being made by a single person for relatively small but devoted audiences helps a lot.

>>91235896

Manga master race. Shame all that really gets translated officially is shonen and shoujo.

>>91236033
I really wish there was a way to support the artist beyond going to a convention and buying books I cannot properly read because fuck learning japanese for the sole sake of reading doujinshi.

>>91235806
The old list was Reed, Doom, Pym, T'Challa, Banner, Stark and McCoy, with Cho in eighth. Not 100% sure on the order of 3-7.

Now the list has completely changed, with half of the old list inactive and their spots taken over by characters like Lunella and Riri.

>>91236114

Feels bad man.

Feels bad.

>>91236236
Yeah. And I mean, I would honestly pay into a patreon if any of them had any, or some shitty subscription service of some sort, but I do get the feeling most of them are of the auteur mindset that somehow money, regardless of how personal the giving is, taints the work. I don't understand such a mentality, because at the end of the day you got to eat and if people are willing to pay your food because you make stuff they like, what's the issue?

>>91231604
>>91231830
Those were more pushed than successful, though.

>>91237176
>but I do get the feeling most of them are of the auteur mindset that somehow money, regardless of how personal the giving is, taints the work. I don't understand such a mentality, because at the end of the day you got to eat and if people are willing to pay your food because you make stuff they like, what's the issue?

I know in the case of gay porn artists, they hate scanlations because it eats into their profits.

https://myreadingmanga.info/massive-gay-erotic-manga-men-make-eng/

>>91238205
Not that I would care to consume their wares, but then why make so bloody hard to get them? This would be easily solved if it weren't such a pain in the ass to get it... even if pain in the ass is part of the appeal, I suppose.

>>91205404
people like their characters. yanking a hammer or shield or metal suit away from a character and giving it to someone else and having your skull grabbed by meat hooks and redirected at a new character and being told, "You will read this instead and like it!" fuck that shit

>>91238309
I think it's because nobody makes manga with a foreign audience in mind. And honestly, how many creators of any nationality write anything with foreigners in mind?

The only exception, coming to mind, is Hollywood.

>>91223558
HOL UP

CA finally died off?

>>91241406
Yeah, the news came up like days ago. It got lost because of all the news about Marvel and also Wondercon was going on.

>>91225847
That's the most infuriating thing. I was excited to see her book as Wolverine, why turn her characterization into that thing again?

>>91211287
>>91211348
>>91233117
I actually was just reading a manga about a woman who defeats evil spirits trying to kill her family with the power of cooking.

And before that, a manga about a bartender who solves people's emotional problems by pouring exquisitely crafted drinks. The latter one got an animated adaptation of some sort.

>>91205599
This is like a gender-reversed Violence Jack.

>>91227724
how old is she?
why is a little girl wearing lingerie?
wat is this i dont even

>>91227724
Wait, what the fuck happened between frames to go from dressed to pedobait?

>>91227724
Man, I need to go check some edit/redraw threads.

>>91229499
The little girl is supposed to be the smartest person in the world.

>>91211873
>>1. This is a personal opinion, but IMO launching a legacy character by killing off or humiliating the original character sets the legacy character up for failure. Who wants a legacy if the legacy is shitty?
>>3. Never try to be the next whoever. Be the first and only you. People smell BS a mile away.

This is absolutely correct though. New characters who are just cheap imitations of older ones have always been hated regardless of "diversity".

>>91210990
Black means african american. All black people face the same problems as the people in the Wire. Whether they live in Baltimore or Nairobi.

According to African Americans.

>>91205327
>For fucks sake they wanted well written comics
Evidently not because Venom and Thanos were two of the successes while Foolkiller was one of the failures.

>>91205599
>Tumblr never puts money where their mouths are
what, and block the ice cream?

>>91214292
>was better than hackman's though
No, it really wasn't. Secret Wars II is an absolute fucking trash fire. The ONLY events worse than it are Ultimatum and Civil War II.

>>91213509
It's time to mock Brevoort on social media until he cries

>>91213655
>Stop creating comics as an end product for shareholders
All they had to do was push Perlmutter out a window.

>>91205093
I hate when they refer to their readership as a 'comic book collector.'

It's so condescending. Are people who buy well written comics a niche market that needs classification?

>>91213655
>Story arcs are now just long ads for the next story arc.
This.

It's like perpetual waiting while they wait for lightning to strike.

>>91223464
No comic book company does.

Yet.

>>91227724
> edit

it keeps happening

>>91242719
Hulk is strong, he says so himself

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>>91204787
>We saw the sales of any character that was diverse, any character that was new, our female characters, anything that was not a core Marvel character, people were turning their nose up against. That was difficult for us because we had a lot of fresh, new, exciting ideas that we were trying to get out and nothing new really worked.
WOW

>>91233161
>That's the advantage Asian comics have over western. There's something for everyone about everything.
>Almost literally.

There used to be a number of non-cape genres in US comics and a much broader readership.

Then, one day, Marvin Goodman thought it would be funny to spread a rumor Marvel was moving to an 80 page format with no rise in cover price.

Once it got to DC's management as intended, they went birdshit and started printing 100-page $1.00 specials which lost them enough money that they were forced to kill every non-cape genre they had. Marvel followed suit.

40 years later, Marvel's scrambling to convince people to buy 100-page books for $10.

What comes around goes around.

We did it.

In the last 6 months we recovered Marvel comics, America and ancient Egypt history.

What we will recover next?

>>91204787
Last month: IT'S DC'S FAULT FOR ACCEPTING RETURNS, THOSE BASTARDS
This month: IT'S DRUMPF'S FAULT FOR TURNING OUR READERSHIP AGAINST US

Next month: Hello, this is the Walt Disney Corporation. We've restructured Marvel's management and fired just about everyone in editorial.

>>91245095
>we
by which you mean /r/The_Donald

>>91245095
>ancient Egyptian History
what?

>>91245230
he wuz kangs n shiet

>>91245799
yes but how was it "recovered?"

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>>91205961
Marvel hasnt done enough to make white people look bad to promote other races which is part of their problem. Writing a story with minority characters like muslims doesnt help unless you put down people for being christian because their islamophobic.

>>91245882
>moviejail.jpg

>>91245047

So what you're saying is comics are ruined more and they'll never recover?

>>91245882
>their

>>91221223
That it would remain an Avengers focused story rather than throw away everything for Reed vs Doom?

>>91242628
>>91242719
How are there still people on /co/ that don't know these are edits?

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Many who work on marvel properties have said their starting points for stories and characters are Diversity.

That is the problem they dont think of entertainment or what will sell. They dont even think of what a good story would be, many comics now are made with one idea in mind then they try to write the story around that central idea say LGBT rights, or promoting minorities or a political message.

Basically the comics have gone so niche with their ideas when the niche doesnt even buy comics that their making products for people who dont buy them and have a history of not being interested in comics from a consumer standpoint.

>>91204787
>didn't want diversity
>didn't want female characters
We didn't want establish characters to get fucked out of existance for the sake of "diversity". I am all for new mutli-ethnic and female characters, but not at the expense of already established properties.

>>91210250
This.

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>>91246578
Marvel doesn't understand the demographic their trying to cater too. These people buy any form of merchandise to show off their geek cred, but can't be fucking asked to actually pick up a comic. These people just buy a t-shirt or a shitty funko figure at best, maybe you a sucker a few into buying a statue of a character. But buying a comic, that where you fucked up.

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>>91248537
Leth isn't an actual example.

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>>91249063

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>>91249125

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>>91249173
If only Leth had the self awareness to know her writing is substance less fluff.

Kate Leth sucks.

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>>91249063
She does buy books, and read books, but she also proves exactly what >>91248537 is talking about.

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>>91249725
She makes for decent lolcow material.

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>>91249816
I already know, who do you think posts this over and over again for (you)s.

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>>91250167

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>>91250195

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>>91250224

>>91250137
This isn't funny because it's tough to maintain a boner while things are being destroyed and still be considered a hero.

Also a boner takes about ten minutes tops if you're really working on it. You can't just push a period out.

>>91250316
What if heroes get boners from being heroes.

>>91250905
refer to:
>Also a boner takes about ten minutes tops if you're really working on it. You can't just push a period out.

Kate Leth isn't funny. Why are you posting her garbage in a thread that has nothing to do with her garbage? Other than maybe the Marvel carnage her failed work left in it's wake.

>>91250137
one gives you a direct feed of natural HGH, the other makes you cry, bitch at everyone and eat chocolate ice cream

>>91205093
It's because it was always "OH LOOK IT'S A GIRL" and it always revolved around that shit and never just developed a good character.

But it's Marvel, so that makes sense.

>>91250224
>white
>womanly hips
>sizeable bootay

she's fat isn't she

>>91205093
>You can take what you want out of who might be enjoying those three books, but it is definitely a specific type of comic book reader
Honestly I feel insulted.

>>91245097
One can only hope...

>>91217847
>Starting with all that buildup that led to Cap going crazy old man and killing Stark in the fight to the death while the world is dying around them.

I don't get how that didn't get more shit than it should've. For all its flaws, Spencer's Hydra Cap story gave a reason for Cap being Hydra. There was no real good reason why Old Cap wasted his time beating on Iron Man instead of leading the Avengers.

Has Nick Spencer had an aneurysm yet?

>>91252568

Why every time I see a page of this comic she never has pants on?

>>91252642
Dedicated pants hating autists with illustrator skills.

I wonder if the artists on the book will start giving her more conservative outfits to try to compensate

>>91205702

Which is especially ridiculous because a black Americans experiences are equally as far removed from T'challa as a white American's experiences. He's the king of a country, he barely ever has to deal with white supremacy, and it's only when he's visiting.

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>>91231778
>Nov 9

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>>91245047
>>There used to be a number of non-cape genres in US comics

Eh. There still is.

>>91212115
>when Girihiru draws it and gwenpool is a cute teenager the quality goes up, the second another artist from marvel picks it up and gwenpool becomes a 28 year old trucker drawn by social justice picasso the quality of the issue immediately drops.
Examples of this?

>>91213871
This is real?

Despite whiny MRA's on the fucking internet, it's not diversity that's the problem it's all the goddamn events and new #1's that have hurt marvel. It's hard to get invested in anything.

>>91255206
It's not an edit, if that's what you mean.

>>91255386
Yeah.

How the fuck did that even make it through ediitorial? I guess that's some kind of Thor related book, right? Why the fuck would an Asgardian tiier character care about those things? They don't even look like they're on fucking Earth and stuff like that is completely out of context.

>>91255737
>I guess that's some kind of Thor related book, right?
It was from Angela: Queen of Hel and that's supposed to be Bor, Odin's dad.

It's fucking stupid, but what else are you going to expect from an Angela solo.

>>91210624
I'd argue she became one of the better female-led titles in Marvel's diversity push. She may have been """Quirky""", but she actually had a compelling story that was more dependent on her superhero life. I'm glad they cut out the pheromone subplot from ASM, and Peter's role in there was actually justified. I'm kind of perversely glad it's getting cancelled, more because that prevents any other writing team from fucking it up.

It also helps that she's cute as fuck when Lee draws her.

>>91255242
Sales don't support this.

Events sold, diversity didn't.

They should have just left Miles in the old universe, no one likes a nigger spiderman.

>>91256469
>events sold

Civil War II flopped, people barely noticed Monsters Unleashed even happened, and meanwhile America #1 and Black Panther both got multiple printings.

Have fun in denial.

>>91256111
Personally I'm more than glad if the book gets shitcanned and she's forgotten for good. Fuck anything to do with Original Sin and that bunch of shit retcons.

>>91252642
Just report it whenever you see it.

>>91249816
>caring more about good comics than meaningless company wars

OMG WHAT A CRAZY SJW WOW

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>>91258876
>Just report it whenever you see it.

Why? its not even porn.

Reminder that Marvel published this and its not an edit

>>91251355
Nah, just thicc.

>>91212130
Well the last time they made artists into stars, they created the 90s Image Crew. It's understandable that they'd be hesitant to repeat the mistakes of the past.

>>91252355
I don't want that fuckstick to die until he finishes Bedlam

>>91258842
>multiple printings
what does that actually mean since I hear that shit and the next month am greeted with mediocre sales numbers especially in tge case of America. Who got "2nd chance" variants.

>>91258675
Nah eing in 616 has helped his sales greatly

>>91260208
I'm guessing the book being called simply "Spider-Man" helped sales greatly.

Willow's post was largely correct, I think. The best parts of Ms. marvel's first volume weren't the "legacy" scenes, or the progressive politics stuff. They were the immigrant life scenes. Kamala meeting with her iman, the language and culture of her family and neighborhood, the struggle between two worlds.

Compare that with, say, Spider Man. What is he grounded it?

>>91204787
Sort of Amazing this came out the same time as CA closing. They could have survived a bit longer on the hate clicks with it.

>>91260155
It means it sold out of its first print run, so Marvel printed more.

People love to make up conspiracy theories when a comic they hate gets a second print, but doing a print run of a comic is FUCKING EXPENSIVE, companies don't do it unless the first run was a success and they think they can sell even more.

>>91211780

Comicbook conventions might as well be branded as POP Figure conventions at this point. Normalfag/plebs/cosplayers outnumber people who are there because they actually like comics, and they've started catering to the geek chic "I once saw a Marvel movie, such a nerd xD" crowd.

>>91205327
>says every cuck
Sorry to break this to you but some people DO care and they have a lot of researchers into why their sales are down
And this answer IS correct just because you do not think so doesn't mean it is not true
I really don't want to see legacy of vaginas and blacks maybe I just want to see the character I like whether it started as a vagina or black
Like reading Sherlock Holmes and suddenly it's no longer about him
For christs sake why is this so hard to understand for you tumblerinas

>>91227724

what the fuck how did she get nekkid

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>>91205093
FUCKING MARVEL I SWEAR TO GOD

We don't like characters because they're diverse. We like characters because they're cool and well-written. If they happen to be diverse, fine. If they're not cool or well-written, fuck them.

We also like classic characters that have been repeatedly cool and well-written in the past. If you fuck them over, we don't like it.

BUT NO, IT'S OBVIOUSLY DRUMPF BRAINWASHING EVERYONE INTO A RACIST SEXIST DRONE WHO HATES DIVERSITY. OBVIOUSLY

>>91220131
you can do a smart kid without making her look obnoxious.

god she looks obnoxious.

Diversity is good.
Virtue signaling is bad.
Marvel put more effort into virtue signaling than they did the quality of their books.

If you suddenly feel the need to put out a press release saying how progressive you are, you've already failed and are doing it for the wrong reasons.

Haha I remember when /co/ thought SJWs didn't exist.

>>91266154
When was that?

>>91204787
>all book are selling like shit
>the diverse ones specially
>clearly the fact all books are selling like shit is because our readers are bigots
Never change, Marvel. Never change.

>>91260898
Except most of the time second printings don't really mean much. A lot of books get second printings. All it really means is that it sold out on the distributor level and that some stores sold out but not necessarily all of them, so it'd depend on the print run on the second printing.

When you get to third or fourth printings then it actually becomes more significant.

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>>91242719

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>>91243368
Green Lantern got good after they made Hal go crazy and leave.

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>>91250137
Fuck this is stupid! Is this supposed to be from a real writer?

>>91255242
>Despite whiny sjw's on the fucking internet, it's diversity that's the problem
fixed that senpai

>>91204787
if it ain't broke, don't fix it. we had no problems with the decade-old superheroes.

>>91268144
No.

>>91255242
>diversity sold well, events and #1s didn't
>>91256469
>no, diversity didn't sell, events did
>>91258842
>no, events didn't sell, #1s did! checkmate mras

The goalposts, they are a'moving...

>>91219377
where is the photo?

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>>91268938
Have the second one, it's much clearer.

>>91246578
I'm always shocked everytime I see Snyder muscles. Dude could straight up slam me on the ground

>>91268952
>>91219377
Ever heard the phrase "guilt money"?

>>91212355
>plenty of Robins replaced Dick
Because Robin is Batman's sidekick. You can get away with a lot of shit when you're Batman and as long as that Batman is the dark and brooding Bruce the people know you don't have much to worry about.

>>91268952
I misread that as "Trump-o-Comics"

I'd read that label

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>people didn’t want any more diversity.

I... I just wanted a Ketch Ghost Rider that doesn't suck.