>Captain America movie where Stark is the antagonist >Stark

>>91012169
It shows that the public likes Iron Man more than Captain America.

That and the fact that Steve's bff murdered his parents made me feel bad for Tony. Before anyone tries it: Yes I know that Bucky was brainwashed but I dare you to be rational once you realize that the man who took away your parents is five feet away from you and your friend who worked with your dad in the past knew about it and kept it from you.

>>91012169
No, it's the power of screentime and money.

>>91012169
The Russos said that they knew the editing was done when test audiences were split perfectly 50/50 on who they sided with.

>>91012169
Good acting and a bit of hamfisted writing.

>>91012169
Probably helps that Cap was in the wrong the entire movie

>>91012169
Yes.

>>91012314
>believing directors

>>91012352
Tony pls

>>91012169
Yeah best RDJ since the first ironman and the Russos wanted you to feel bad for both.
>>91012454
Cap is my pure husbando but pretty much he admitted he did the right thing for the wrong reasons.

>>91012169
It's more the script really. He comes off as clearly a did nothing wrong antagonist, while the protagonist puts innocents in dangers to prevent his buttbuddy from getting arrested.

How can anyone defend Cap defending Wanda?
She's a criminal who almost destroyed the entire world by aiding Ultron.
She mind fucked the Hulk and is responsible for him rampaging through a city.
Tony keeping her under house arrest while things got worked out was far more than she deserved.

>>91012169
>most sympathetic character

Nope

File: cap thinks about civil war.jpg (78KB, 333x431px) Image search: [Google]

78KB, 333x431px

>>91012352
Just like in the comic

>>91012169
I'd argue that Bucky was the most sympathetic character of the entire film, but Stark was a close second.

Cap just straight-up fucked up the entire film and arguably years before.

>>91012386
Never said I believed them.

>>91012226
>implying i wouldn't just use my suit lasers to cut steve's legs off so he won't get in my way

>>91012614
What got me was Cap's repeated insistence that she's "just a kid".

How old is she supposed to be? Because her actress is a few years from 30, and there's never been any indication until now the character is any younger.

>>91012669

Bucky would be better if he didn't spend the entire franchise being an utter faggot

File: Wanda is a brat.png (275KB, 884x645px) Image search: [Google]

275KB, 884x645px

>>91012614
>Tony keeping her under house arrest while things got worked out was far more than she deserved.
This

Also >>91012669 this.

And the film did a good job of portraying Cap as the hero working against the system to do what needed to be done, only to reveal that it was all a setup and Cap was playing into Zemo's hands. I liked that deconstruction.

Zemo's plan was a bit retarded, and relied on too many conveniences, but I never actually think about that AS I'm watching the movie. I guess that means the Russos did a good enough job with the editing, dialogue, and cinematography that it just never occurs to me in the moment.

>>91012851
Both her and her brother act quite naively, I think it's meant to convey youth.
We know Tony was already selling weapons when they were kids, but that's not saying much considering he was young and hip CEO.

>>91012860
He's cool in Cap 1, but yeah as soon as he becomes WS I just can't really take him seriously.

>>91012851
Early 20s

>>91012169
This movie still pissed me off. The trailers did a great job of making both sides seem justified yet flawed and still understandable.

Then you watch the movie and they just have Buckey be mind controlled.

>>91012169
He's a fucking hypocrite and never learns his lesson. Sure Cap knowing about his dead parents was fucked up but Stark has been shitting the bed since Day 1 and repeats the process in each of his movies and so forth.

>>91012226
i cant belive people still give tony crap for "snaping out" as if someone could stay cool in the situation tony was in

>>91013193
Having Buckey being mind controlled was the only way to make Caps team sympathetic

>>91013244
Not really. He's one of the few people From captain's past and the guy is an idealist whose willing to risk everything to save a single person.

Even in the second avengers movie Tony and cap had a spat where captain said he would be willing to sacrifice everything if that's what it took, Tony was already taking the greater-good/realist stance

>>91012226
You don't get a pass for murder if you are on drugs, drunk, fugue state etc. Bucky didn't seek help, and that means he is to blame, he choosed to live in a European city instead of moving to Patagonia, Siberia or Alaska. Fuck him. And Fuck Steve too.

Civil war marked his last good performance as tony stark since Iron man tbqh, otherwise you can see the capeshit-fatigue on his face.

>>91012169
It's the power of
>Good Writing
>Good Acting
>Good Directing
All things the DCCU is lacking.
Well Batfleck is okay, but he alone can't save them.

>>91013367
t. muhammad.

>>91013231
Me too and I'm not even a big Tony fan.

I would've flown the fuck off the handle too if I were him.

>>91012851
And?

Literally everyone in the avengers has fucked up badly, that's why the idea they deserve to act with no restrictions is insane, you have two career killers that had killed politics and important people, hulk, the brother of Loki the guy that attacked new york, iron man a weapon dealer that created ultron, ultron's sidekick, a piece of propaganda, an American soldier (Americans may be shocked, but the world doesn't like those), etc.

Steve believes his ideals are so superior that the self determination, freedom and independent thinking of other countries and people don't really matter. He can kill and attack people he deem dangerous wherever he wants.

>>People blame Tony for everything in the film.
>>Pepper left him for building suits.
>>Woman blames him for death of child.
>>Ross breathing down his neck.
>>Everyone hates Tony for trying to do the right thing in his mind.
>>Then Bucky kills his parents.
>>"Oh, you can't be mad, he wasn't in control"

That is great shit.

Kinda the point of Civil War is that neither characters are supposed to be the "bad guy". Tony is the antagonist but not necessarily bad or wrong. He just opposes the protagonist.

The movie does a better job at this than the comic.

Also the purpose of Tony and Cap literally fighting each other while nearly crying with sad music playing while Zemo sits back and laughs.

>>91012169

he was basically JUSTed the entire movie

>no longer genuinly confident, probably sitll has PTSD
>no longer a popular celebrity, everyone hates him from Ultron including himself
>no longer a womanizer, the only woman to ever actually love him has left him
>he has to sell out to the government, something he took great pride in avoiding before
>almost all his friends abandon or betray him over this
>his one remaining friend gets painfully crippled
>on top of all this he finds out his parents were murdered
>now stuck in a huge compound with a tfwnogf android and his crippled best friend

>>91013367
>you don't get a pass for murder if you are literally being mind controlled and have your memory erased after every mission

>>91012226
>creates Ultron
>despite everyone telling him it was a bad idea
>fucks everything up and then acts like it's not his fault when the governments come and try and take control (that will lead to more ultrons)

yeah fuck tony

>>91013445
What? How is that Muslim? Bucky was a ticking bomb, he knew it and choose to live in a European capital instead of finding a way to be safe and keep others safe. I guess he needed a gay disco. The worst part of Steve arc in civil war is that he kills people in Africa, his team fails to save civillians, attack the police in Germany, steal an airplane, illegally brake into several countries, his team thrashed an airport, and then he goes and takes his team. Out of prision, he suffers no consequence, he doesn't give a shit. There's nothing wrong with fighting a system you don't believe in if you are not afraid of the consequences, but if you know and are sure you won't pay for your crimes then is not heroic, it's just being a proud self-righteous bastard

>>91013612
>biting the obvious lazy bait this hard

>>91013566
You don't, fugue state doesn't excuse you. If someone forces you to kill you are not innocent. Bucky belongs on a nut house, he needs help, he knows it and he ignores it.

>>91013655
Hey, at the end Bucky went back into deep freeze at his own insistence. And he didn't know that he could be reactivated until Zemo got him.

>>91013579
>Tony made ultron
>forgetting that Wanda mindfucked Tony into doing it

>>91012966
>Zemo's plan was a bit retarded, and relied on too many conveniences
Zemo's plan was mostly vague and I think it's fallacious to assume he planned for every dramatic coincidence to play out exactly like this. The same way detectives on a police show probably didn't plan to show up at suspect's home just as he was leaving, to give a good chase scene.

>>91012564
Nah he just did the right thing.

>>91013772

You're confusing the MCU with facts. And in any event, in your rush to defend Manlet Man in every way you can, you got your MCU chronology wrong.

>>91013579
Did he create Ultron? I thought he just hijacked whatever gay project Tony was working on.
But ultimately Wanda did bad but she was imprisoned purely for retarded reasons and probably wouldn't have been imprisioend had the VibraniumJews not strong armed repercussions onto the only surviving parties of the conflict because SOMEONE MUST BE BLAMED.

>"Hey guys, the nations of the world have all gotten together and decided that they aren't comfortable with us conducting unilateral international operations with no oversight while barging into foreign nations and causing massive collateral damage. Luckily, all they're asking for is that we submit to a basic level of oversight and let the local governments know that we'll be operating in their administrations before going in, so it's a pretty easy solut-"

>"NO TONI, U MOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

No idea how you could have sided against Cap, OP.

>>91014001
The UN is bad, remember when they didn't want America to invade Irak? Or when they told Israel to stop bombing children?

File: aid19742-900px-Laugh-Step-6-Version-3.jpg (80KB, 900x675px) Image search: [Google]

80KB, 900x675px

>>91014001
>>"NO TONI, U MOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Seriously, no amount of charisma and built up good will could save Cap from how retarded the script made him look.

>>91014001
>what if we need to go somewere and they dont let us?
jeez cap then you go anyway and face the consequences latter is not like they can stop you and your super friends

>>91014038
The UN in real life is useless, but in MCU they can operate a law enforcement paramilitary agency relatively well, infiltration problems notwithstanding.

>>91013835
...that fact being Wanda mind-raped Tony with the explicit knowledge that he'd spiral off into into an ill-advised attempt to save the people he loves by playing god?

Wanda acted out of outright malice; her unleashing of the Hulk was evidence enough of that. Stark did an oopsie, but it was not entirely of his own accord (as in, he had NO intention of experimenting with the staff until Wanda fucked with his deepest fears.) And fuck it; he still acted like a champ after the fact. See >>91012966.

>>91014154
>The UN in real life is useless
I can't believe so many people over 20 genuinely think that.

where the hell is this Wanda caused Ultron to happen bullshit coming from?

>>91014154

they wanted to nuke manhattan

Cap was Right

>>91014001
>A week ago half the government was run by Supernazis
>And now we have to answer to like the most evil guy in the government who wasn't one of those said Nazis.
>But it's okay because we can just disregard these rules at any given moment it suits our needs
At worst it's enslaving yourself to guys who are just plain bad for the world, at best it's just fucking useless.

>>91014219
>they wanted to nuke manhattan
Who doesn't?

>>91014170
also dont forget that ultron lirely booted himself or maybe was thanos

>>91014233
It's appaling lack of commitment. They don't want to be subordinates to the local legitimate authorities, but they also don't want to be world conquerers enforcing their values on peoples of the worlds. This is dumb. Cap is lying to himself.

>>91012614
Tonly literally created Ultron everything that he did was on his hands.

>>91014233
>>And now we have to answer to like the most evil guy in the government who wasn't one of those said Nazis.
It also looks stupid they never point out how Ross also has a skeleton in his closet regarding collateral damage. I mean you can argue they don't know, although we're probably supposed to assume since they hang out between movies, and Banner would have probably told someone what the fuck happened in his solo movie.

>>91012851
Murder doesn't become a crime until your about 27. Look it up.

>>91012169
>I don't care, he killed my mom
I can understand where he's coming from. It's easy to rationalize that Bucky is too screwed up and dangerous to let him walk away, but I know what my real reason for killing him would be. Catharsis. But that's why I'd make a bad superhero.

I kind of like a superhero that is similarly bad at being a superhero.

I also really liked Panther's little exchange with that nutso Eastern European guy at the end. I forget his name. I know we're supposed to hate Marvel but I really enjoyed the end of Civil War.

>>91014233

>Movie has to purposefully go out of the way to say that the Avengers would be overseen by a single person who's an incredible dick in order to make Cap's point of view have any argument

>>91014303
maybe the hydra incident left very few trusth worthy people

Captain America was objectively undeniably wrong and anyone that believes otherwise is a fascist pig

>>91014280
>Lack of commitment
Nah they just have typical targets/agendas.
Y'know smashing Hydra or saving the world.
They're not out to waltz into every 3rd world conflict that happens.
>>91014336
Well not for white girls.

>>91013827
And by right you mean left which means wrong.

>>91014345
Well not so much out of its way but it illustrates an obvious flaw in the system especially THAT system since while Ross is the worst he's hardly the only dick with an ounce of power.

>>91013505
>"Oh, you can't be mad, he wasn't in control"
You know, this always bugged me. Cap had to realize this shit was a too way street. Yeah, he wasn't in control but at the same time Tony just learned something that affected him emotionally and it was basic human nature to lash out the way he did. You can't have your apple pie and eat it, Cap.

>>91013792
I wanted just one extra line out of Zemo, after Tony says "I can probably cut through that wall you're hiding behind"

>I'm sure you could, given time, but then all I'd have to do is list off a few words and that man next to you would make it very difficult to do so. Besides, seeing as how you're here now, I thought I'd show you something in the meantime

I dunno how well that jives with everything, but cut that bit with him telephoning the hotel I think it'd make it clear that he was expecting only Cap and Bucky, if anybody, but decided to take advantage of the situation once Tony showed up

>>91012169
The thing that I really liked is that the final confrontation between Iron Man and Captain America didn't actually have anything to do with the accords. It showed that both Tony and Steve were willing to put things aside for the greater good.

It took a huge reveal that Bucky killed Tony's mom and dad and that Steve KNEW about it to break them.

>>91014381

The same could be said for Cap though. Sure, working with no oversight works NOW, because OF COURSE the Avengers are all pure and noble and just trying their gosh-darned best. But as they expand and add new members, the odds of them becoming corrupted at some point down the line increases, at which point that lack of oversight could become catastrophic.

>>91014219
The only reason manhatten was able to saved was because of a deus ex machina that literally nobody knew about.

>>91013505
>>91014440

Not to mention the fact that Tony's best friend was blown out of the fucking sky and was nearly killed by The Falcon like 12 hours beforehand at that point.

>>91014494
>vision

>>91014517

Shit, you're right. My bad

File: Ultron.png (974KB, 569x850px) Image search: [Google]

974KB, 569x850px

>>91014302
Here's the fact the a lot of people forget.

Tony actually FAILED to create Ultron. This isn't some fan theory; it's a fucking plot point. Banner outright says Ultron was just a fantasy.

It wasn't until Wanda fucked with Tony's mind that he decided to get a bit creative and try letting the staff interface with the iron legion in an attempt to see what was possible, and even then, he STILL failed. There was no possibility of integration that he was privy to, and he decided to let JARVIS run simulations on how it might be able to interface, at which point Ultron became sentient and began forcing his way past JARVIS and into the internet.

Ultron was an accident born of complete happenstance. Even industrial neglect is a bit of a stretch; Tony made no secret that he wanted to run tests on the scepter, and by no modern technological standards should Ultron have been able to access the internet. Even JARVIS, a fellow AI, was dumbfounded as to how Ultron managed to do what it did. He was basically an isolated brain being analysed. The only thing Tony's really guilty of is putting the staff in the wrong place at the wrong time.

>>91012226
Yup. Pretty much how I felt. I was bored of Tony up to that point, but CW did a really good job on making his character interesting again. I wonder how much of depressed Tony we'll see in Homecoming.

>>91012614
Tony was acting "logical". Steve was being completely emotional. In a sense they were both right in Wanda's case.

>>91014233
Fucking this. Did we just forget how fucking incompetent the government really was? They were a hairs breadth from becoming full on Hydra before they were massively outed. So after a massive restructuring the first thing they do is tard rage at the guy who stopped them from being the fucking Fourth Reich? Yeah, nah, fuck you. Cap gave his life for you chucklefucks once, if there is anyone you can trust to do his best for your bullshit state it isn't the village chief, or your "democratically elected" president or the Imam or your mom or anybody's mom it is Captain Motherfucking America.

>>91012269
Tony's scenes are so much longer than Steve's that he ends up only being 2minutes behind in screen-time.

All Steve's scenes are short.

>>91012169
Honestly was super impressed by RDJ in Civil War. I feel like he fell into a bit of a rhythm in the past few years with Stark, like he kinda went on "snarky techy wiseass" autopilot, but Civil War forced him to actually emote for the first time since the first Iron Man.

He did a damn fine job, honestly.

>>91014355
Except he wasn't.

His main intention is to find his fuckbuddy and keep him safe, I know. But he raised some good points against the accords.

>What if there's something they need to do but the committee doesn't let them?
>What if the committee wants them to do something they feel is wrong?
We all know what kind of shady governments pull off already. What would happen if they want to send a squadron of superheroes to the next Vietnam or Iraq? The heroes would revolt against eventually anyways.

My whole thing is, all of the shit Tony went through and learned in that movie was pretty standard happenings in his line of work. He saw Hawkeye hypnotized by Loki, and how he would totally have killed them if he could have. It would have been a tough pill to swallow, but he should have taken learning Bucky killed his dad way better than immediately throwing a bitch fit and going nuts.

I mean, Jesus, they had literally just learned the bad guy right in front of them wanted them fractured and enemies, and Stark still fucked it up.

>>91015072
Yeah, the difference is that Hawkeye killed a literally who agent he only met for few minutes meanwhile Bucky killed his PARENTS. Also, Ultron hadn't happened yet, Pepper was still there, no one was under his chin at every moment (Ross) and his best friend wasn't paralytic after they battled the other half of the Avengers. He wasn't under that much stress like he was in CW.

Like that other anon said, it was completely justified he chimped out like that in the heat of the moment, in fact, it'd be terrible writing if he had not.

>>91012614
> Thor Deliberately started a war with Frost giants to feed his own ego.
> Widow has "red in her ledger."
> Tony made the weapons that destroyed Wanda's life.
> Clint probably did some bad shit in his youth.
> Black Panther selfishly sought revenge out of pure bloodlust.

>>91012851
Steve and all the Avengers are afraid of her. Tony is terrified of her because he does not understand her powers.

Mordo will literally shit himself.

>>91015137
>Clint uses a fucking bow to fight inter dimensional armies and maniacal robot killers*
ftfy*

Also Widow is sterilized she should be in the deepest level of the raft.

File: 1462866805798.png (634KB, 1024x564px) Image search: [Google]

634KB, 1024x564px

Am I the only one who remembers every single thread leading up to CW? Everyone here would not shut up about how much they hated Tony and how you'd be retarded to NOT be team Cap. We all knew going into this that bucky killed tony's dad at least because they say that in Winter Soldier. So we already knew that Cap knew and didnt tell Tony. Every single one of you were blindly following cap bc "normies leik iron manlet" I sincerely hope this has been a learning experience for you all.

File: 1490293749462.jpg (4KB, 199x183px) Image search: [Google]

4KB, 199x183px

>>91015072
>but he should have taken learning Bucky killed his dad way better than immediately throwing a bitch fit and going nuts.
Believe it or not he is human prone to the most basic flaw in our design, emotions. Any person would've reacted like that if they were in his shoes. Don't you pretend to be some sort of hard ass.

File: XS5LK.gif (883KB, 500x269px) Image search: [Google]

883KB, 500x269px

>>91015212
>widow is sterilized she should be in the deepest level of the raft.

>>91013579
there was already a fully formed ultron body in strucker's base at the beginning of aou. hydra apparently uploaded him into the staff and then deactivated him... or something.

all tony did was link him up with the stark database.

>>91015232
Still a manlet.

Still inferior.

>>91014892
>iron man
>in a spiderman movie
>with geeky peter
>and ganke

just fuck my shit up

>>91015286
dont forget the oc who is in love with peter, black liz, and mini flash

>>91015286
>spiderman

>>91015245
But he's not a normal person; he's dealt with extraordinary circumstances, several times. I mean, I'm not saying he should have been unphased, he could have shouted, been livid, never wanted to see his face again or he'd melt his brain out of his skull, but again, he literally disregarded the fact that he flat out knew the bad dude wanted them to beat the shit out of each other, and hopefully kill a few. He completely and totally blew it at the last minute, because he chose to.

How is he on the right side of things?

>SO, I know I'm kinda responsible for Ultron, but we really need to stay in check by the goverment, guys
>Tony this is retarded, I literally fought Hydra a week ago
>WOW OKAY CAP GO BE A FAGGOT VIGILANTE, THEN
...
>Look man, I know I kinda killed your parents, but it really wasn't me, if you don't go insane, you'll be pretty much proving youself right and Zemo's plan will fail
>YOU SON OF BITCH MY MOM

How can anyone like Stark in this movie?

>>91015425
Stark may have a big ego, but his love for his mother was still greater.

Is not that hard to understand, anon.

>>91012966
Tony could not stop Wanda being deported, and the likelihood of "things blowing over" was practically nill. It's pretty clear in that exchange with Steve that the house arrest thing is a desperate maneuvre which he fears will fail, he clearly does not believe Wanda can be re-instated.

Tony can take off his suit, I doubt he fully grasps that Wanda's powers literally are her. Steve is the only person who understands that.

It's magnified by Tony and Wanda distrusting each other while simultaneously feeling guilt toward each other.

Also, it appears Vision is very naughty and breaks the Accords in Infinity War by leaving the compound and going to Edinburgh to see Wanda.

They didn't want a repeat of the comic (the directors stated this), because in the comic, Tony was made into an irredeemable evil motherfucker 1/3 into the story. The weird thing is that Reed and Pym did as much shit as Tony in the comic, but everything fell on Tony's head.

>>91014339
Civil War was a great movie, i'm a dcfag and despite looking like a TV Show the movie is really fucking good

>>91015510
I can't wait for the scene in which Vision tries to lift Thor hammer only to fail... and then Thanos rips off the stone from his forehead.

I find it funny how the Spidey and Pantherfags don't want any Avengers taking screen-time from their faves.

But it's okay to fuck over Cap in that way.

>>91015532
>despite looking like a TV Show
It worked well in Winter Soldier, but in a movie with flying suits, spider-men, godlike androids, giant men and dudes dressed as cats it just feels like the budget was lacking.

>>91015425
That's what happens when the person that murdered your family is standing before you especially if you just found out they were the ones who did the deed. Nothing else matters. There's no time for rational thinking. It doesn't matter if they were being controlled or not, you want nothing more than to see that person dead for taking something precious from you.

>>91015520
Pym already had the wife beating on his head so was already loaded with stigma.

Reed is leader of the cuddly Fantastic Four, Marvel's first family.

>>91015545
Cap benefits from having more to play off of. He's the kind of character that really shines in the presence of other characters with a powerful on screen presence. I like his ensemble movies way more than his solo movies. That might also be true for Spidey and Catman but I don't know yet.

>>91015212
>Clint uses a fucking bow to fight inter dimensional armies and maniacal robot killers

Now it is my headcanon that Hawkguy is the only Avenger with a true Warrior Spirit and his dream is dying on the battlefield. That's the real reason he quit retirement.

File: 1490395894215.png (176KB, 599x751px) Image search: [Google]

176KB, 599x751px

>>91015445
>look man, I killed your mom but it totally wasn't my fault, I had a gun to my head
>lol, okay friend. lets go grab a beer :)
That ain't how reality works, chump. I'm gonna beat your ass until you can barely move and that's if someone isn't around to hold me back. No one cares if you were being controlled or not. You're gonna get your deserts then the faggots that was controlling you can look forward to the spanking they're gonna receive.

>>91015596
I hate Reed. The only good thing about the F4 is Ben.

>>91015640
I'm not saying that Iron Man being a hypocrite is bad thing in the movie, that's the whole point. What I am saying it's that I don't understand why people like him when he's clearly being an asshole.

>>91013566
No, but you shouldn't be able to walk around free either. Let's say a terrorist implants a bomb inside your skull against your will. Nobody knows how to remove it or deactivate it. At any time someone who knows the activation code could activate the bomb, killing anyone around you. Should you be allowed to lead a normal life? Or, for the sake of others, should you be confined someplace where you won't do anybody any harm, maybe someplace where you could get the help you need?

Yeah.

>>91015748
Sounds awfully similar to what Tony was trying to do with Wanda.

>>91015748
Wasn't that the point of Bucky putting himself on ice in fantasy Africa?

>>91015774
Yeah, but he had to be reactivated by Zemo before.

>>91015735
It's a relatable position given the circumstances. Some people like perfect characters that can do no wrong, others appreciate a character that makes mistakes and isn't always perfectly in the right with a convenient little moral high ground to ultimately excuse everything they do.

Yeah he was fucked up but the guy that isn't in that situation sounds like a boring character to me.

>>91015804
I see your point, I just think it was poorly executed.

>>91015792
He didn't know someone could just come along and do that until Zemo did, given that Hydra was supposedly defunct. We agree he did the right thing after the fact. The question is could that situation have been easily predicted before then?

>>91015818
Ill concede that. I can hardly fault you for having higher standards in storytelling.

Steve pretty much admits at the end of the movie that he fucked up, the Avengers matter more to Tony and that he is a loner and all he had was Bucky.

The key moment is when they are discussing the Accords, and Steve leaves after learning of Peggy's death.

An empty seat in the middle of a dysfunctional team (their body language speaks volumes) at the worst possible moment.

Losing Peggy leads to Steve doubling down on his final connection to his old life.

Steve sees alot of himself in Wanda, the introverted loner who has lost her connections to her old life and cannot fit in. Tony sees alot of himself in Peter, the insecure genius who wants to do good (Uncle Ben's death being a mirror of Tony's arms dealing).

> Tony's surrogate family consists of people who bitch at him and hate him.

>>91012169
>Civil War the comic:
>Rookie heroes fight a villain and accidentally blow up a middle American town killing hundreds.
>U.S. Government decides to pass a law that forces every superhero to register and unmask.
>Tony Stark thinks the law is great.
>Captain America thinks the law is fascist.
>People fight, Tony keeps escalating until someone dies, in the end Cap turns himself in on the condition of a pardon for everyone who helped him.
>Tony comes out looking like an asshole, Cap looks like a hero.

>Civil War the movie:
>Avengers have no one in charge of them because S.H.I.E.L.D. was secretly run by Hydra and self destructed in the last Captain America movie.
>Avengers go to a third world country to catch some villain, a group of Wakandian dignitaries get blown up.
>U.N. decides someone needs to be in charge of the Avengers to make sure they don't accidentally start a war.
>Tony thinks this is a good idea.
>Cap goes "No one can tell me what to do because I'm always right."
>Tony's argument makes more logical sense, but as far as the movie is concerned, Cap actually is right about everything that happens.
>Tony still looks like a jerk, but not as much as he did in the comic. At least he didn't kill anyone this time.
>Cap goes full vigilante with his Secret Avengers, but it's okay because we know he's always right.

File: Chris-Evans-Captain-America.jpg (94KB, 2000x1331px) Image search: [Google]

94KB, 2000x1331px

At the end of the day, Steve just fucking KNOWS the right thing to do. Or he THINKS he does. This is pure Greatest Generation shit. Steve believes he was raised by good parents (or a good mother) in a good country, in a good place, in a good time. Steve thinks his inborn sense of right and wrong is accurate. Steve thinks that the right thing is the right thing and the wrong thing is the wrong thing, and he thinks that, as an American, it's his duty to do the right thing, all the time. Damn the consequences.

This was a pretty strong attitude among people of Steve's generation. I grew up with some of them, and the people who were raised by them. They will go down fighting for what they think is right.

>>91012169
There were no "antagonists" - just people at odds with each other, which is the tragedy of the story.

>>91015856
>He didn't know someone could just come along and do that until Zemo did
Yeah, that was pretty much my point. Until Zemo happened he was keeping himself low profile trying to not mess anything until he realizes there people out there who can re-activate the Winter Soldier and decides to freeze himself.

The question is could that situation have been easily predicted before then?

>>91015902
>implying Rhodey hates Tony
He stayed loyal even after losing his legs.

"Bucky...Looks like you killed my mom and pop. I'm kinda bummed about that, to be honest. But, it's not your fault, Bucky, so let's go have a drink."

Would this have been an easier sell If they could have made the twins/Wanda younger? Say mid to late teens? Because I agree that Steve's insistence that Scarlet Witch was a kid was jarring and a lot of this shit is her fault. I feel like if I'd really gotten the impression that she was a juvenile delinquent with a huge chip on her shoulder a lot of things would have fallen into place more easily in my mind.

But then I guess her relationship with Vision would be kind of creepy at times.

>>91015954
Funny thing is Steve was willing to sign the accords until the whole Bucky situation happened.

>>91015985
Why? Vision is literally the purest for of existence in their world, also just a few months old.

>>91015969
And that probably hurts even more.

>Tony was right to imprison Wanda

Tony's done shit that's as bad or worse than anything she's done and she's no less guilty about her past than he is.

Where does he get off making that decision?

Tony is the MCU's biggest fuckup by a mile.

File: terrahawks-head.jpg (70KB, 510x336px) Image search: [Google]

70KB, 510x336px

I think the overall Tony was right in the sense that the Avengers needed to keep a low profile and stay out of things for a while.

Bio terror is bad but Lagos was frankly below the Avengers remit. Not an Avengers problem.


If Steve hadn't rescued his team-mates, Tony would have had to make new exo-skeleton arms for Wanda in Infinity War

>>91012169
Stark was a genre-blind fool

The government is never trustworthy and it was fucking Ross pulling the strings

>>91015520
>The weird thing is that Reed and Pym did as much shit as Tony in the comic, but everything fell on Tony's head.

Tony was in charge, that's how it works.

>>91016242
So much of it was also in the tone of things. In the various tie-in comics Tony was made out to be a literal fascist, glorying in how much he could beat up the Anti-Reg side, stating repeatedly that he wanted to bring everyone under heel for the greater good.

Funnily, Reed was a close second in this regard. Reed even had a moment where he mentioned his uncle, who had been brought before the HUAC, in complete tone-deafness before he helped Tony build an illegal prison in the Negative Zone. There are a FUCKTON of people who believe Reed never fully answered for his actions during Civil War. Of course now that Reed's been erased from the Marvel Universe, it's a moot point.

>>91015774
It was. He did it at the end of the movie after spending the rest of the time refusing to turn himself in.

>He didn't trust the US government could keep him locked up after Zemo got to him.

Right, because there are no supervillains in Wakanda. As soon as White Gorilla or whoever Black Panther's rival for the throne is decides it's relevant to his evil plot he'll thaw Bucky right on out again and start spouting code words at him. It's not actually a better solution, it's just the same solution in a different place.

You're all forgetting one key element.

Bucky is Steve's best friend.

>>91015985
Wanda is moving away from humanity. Vision is the only sensible choice for her.

Vision
Steve
Clint

Only one of them is a real human bean.

>>91015985
>But then I guess her relationship with Vision would be kind of creepy at times.
It would have been even better.
Let's say Wanda is 14 when teased in Winter Soldier and 15 in Age of Ultron, 16 in Civil War. Young enough to make her a "kid" by legal standards but old enough to (a) be tried as an adult in some jurisdictions and (b) to be above the age of consent anyplace that matters. She'd be 18 before she and Vision ever get close to having a legit sexual relationship.

Then add in the fact that Vision is himself a very young being and I think the relationship would be all the better.

File: BruceWaynescallisdropped.jpg (152KB, 2400x1196px) Image search: [Google]

152KB, 2400x1196px

>>91012169
>Superman movie where Bruce is the antagonist
>Bruce winds up being an unsympathetic psychopath who's safety word is "Martha".

And his actions even less forgiveable when you realize that even with advance warning of the Kryptonian ship's aggression, even with the Army having enough prep-time to load the babyship and fly it to Gotham, the motherfucker was just doing business in Bruce mode while all his weaponry sat in a cave across the harbor.

That is the power of Goyer writing.

File: Batfleck3.jpg (70KB, 852x479px) Image search: [Google]

70KB, 852x479px

>>91016354
>Doesn't even give his employees the day off on the eve of an alien invasion, to be with their families.

He's a total monster.

>>91016354
>clark ends up an relate able and emotionless ghost

File: Pa and Clark.jpg (67KB, 618x331px) Image search: [Google]

67KB, 618x331px

>>91016399
>He and Jonathan haunt Bruce, telling him horrible stories about their past.

>>91012169
I only felt bad for him for the murdered parents thing but he was pretty fucking retarded sometimes.

That said the fact that you didn't feel for Steve is because the Russo bros are fucking hacks who ultimately don't care about Captain America as a character and it shows in their interviews.

>DEADLINE: You loved Spider-Man, growing up. How did you feel about Captain America?

>JOSEPH RUSSO: I didn’t love Captain America. It was not one of my favorite comics. I found him a very flat character. A little vanilla. I used to imagine Steve McQueen in my head when I would read the comics because at least it gave it a little bit more edge for me. What we pitched to Kevin was, listen, if you’re going to continue with the story, the fact that this guy crashes in the ice and is going to wake up in modern times is a perfect story reset for us to go after a different tone, a different theme, a different dimensional approach to the character…a modern approach. Our buzz terms are always post-modern and deconstruct; how can you either make something post-modern, or how can you deconstruct it? That’s when we get interested in the concept.

>ANTHONY RUSSO: To put it really crudely, the thing we would default to is just we want to butch Captain America way up, and we thought we had a narrative excuse to do it because he had been frozen for 70 years and wakes up in a world that he doesn’t recognize, and so he cannot be the same optimist that he was back in the day.

I also can't find the interview but there was an interview about how they considered Steve being a static character and how it was more interesting to have the other characters develop and bounce off of him.

Whedon might have been shit and he didn't fully get Cap either but his Steve Rogers showed more pathos and development than the Steve Rogers in Winter Soldier and Civil War, you feel more for him in that scene that got cut from Avengers and in Age of Ultron than in Winter Soldier and Civil Bore

>>91013505
Tony had a lot of awful shit happen to him but he did a lot of pretty dumb shit too.

Also he always gets forgiven for everything in the end sooo....

>>91015931

The socovkia accords also include a registering through.

File: petsematary1245.jpg (1MB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1920x1080px

>>91016411
"Sometimes, dead parents is better."

>>91012169
>Stark winds up being the most sympathetic character in the entire film
>Meanwhile Captain America split the Avenger in two and putting people in illegality not because of the act on superheroes but for personnel and selfish reason.
Jeez I wonder why

>>91016437
Cap wanted to save an innocent man's life.
It's not like he forced or tricked anyone into breaking any laws, he just made his case.

>>91016435
>why dont you green text that shit?

>>91016465
>(you)

>>91016461
>sam and bucky are steve friends, scott is a cap fanboy
i wouldn be surperise if clint is also a cap fan since he is a soldier/spy

>>91014517

Who was distracted by a filthy mutie that steve had freed. It was Wandas fault. If Vision was on his A game he'd have flown after falcon himself, not held a dirty freak in his arms.

>>91013579
Also reminder that Tony was OK with dropping Sokovia full of people to their deaths and Cap told him to fuck off and said that to at least let him save people before he did it.

>>91013772
Fuck off with your poor woobie Tony dindu nuffin apologist shit.

Wanda mindfucked more than just Tony but no one else but Tony and Banner did Ultron.

At least Banner took responsibility for it.

That said it doesn't matter because everyone forgave them.

>>91016437
Yeah he should have left Bucky in the mercy of a vengeful T'challa and to let him be Bucky's judge, jury, and executioner.

Steve didn't want Bucky to get freed, he wanted him to have a fair trial, and ultimately everyone was more interested in condemning him and moving on.

Also it's not like he didn't give the other Avengers a chance to bail out before proceeding to the airport, they all followed him out of their free will.

>>91015952
For everything right Cap does, this is his main weakness- he makes mistakes and doesn't realize it, and he's so genuine about his beliefs that he's difficult to compromise with when he is wrong.
This doesn't make him a bad person, but it does make him flawed.

>>91015748
Steve didn't want Bucky to be set free or whatever, he had that shit in mind and so did Bucky that's why in the end Bucky went back to being frozen again.

The problem was that everyone was ready to fucking crucify and kill Bucky when he got captured and they were blaming him for the death of T'challa's father which he had no involvement in

>>91016273
>He did it at the end of the movie after spending the rest of the time refusing to turn himself in.

He turns himself in T'challa kills him (because it was fucking obvious T'challa wanted to kill him) after he gets extradited to Wakanda or Zemo uses him again.

>>91016543
Yeah that's his big flaw if he thinks he's right he can be quite stubborn.

One thing I do like about him tho is that when he realizes he's wrong he backs down in a heart beat.

>>91016413
I really like the Russo's characterization of Cap. Though I agree they seem uninterested in his emotional life, in contrast to Tony, whose emotions are explored much more.

Showing how a character's virtues can also be their flaws is good storytelling.

But "deconstruct" and "post modern" scares me, because that's the shit that has poisoned Marvel comics.

>>91016585
But I feel like that's just more of the Greatest Generation stuff, like >>91015952 says. That whole generation of men were blocks of wood. They had their emotional lives, but they never let anyone see them. That was how they were taught to behave.

>>91016619
His relationship with Sharon needed more focus because Sharon represents Steve's future, and the realisation that he has a future.

>>91016660
I disagree. They hinted at it enough, but this was really not all about Steve moving on. Spending too much time on that, between Sharon and Penny, would have murdered the pacing of this summer action blockbuster. They absolutely prioritised the right thing in that regard.

>>91016660
You just wind up with a Thor movie then and nobody wants that shit. Romance is not MCU's strong suit.

>Captain America movie
>Captain America wasn't the focus

Why they didn't just call it Civil War is beyond me.

>>91016413
> They love Spiderman more than Captain America.

> You can tell that by the fact Cap is kicked out of his own movie for 15 minutes for one place for the most long-winded character introductions in the MCU.

>>91016699
But for Infinity War to work dramatically they need to get gud at that, or Viz's fate will have zero impact on the audience.

>>91016699
>Romance is not MCU's strong suit.
I thought the Tony/Pepper stuff was pretty solid in the Iron Man films.
Same for Ant-Man and Doctor Strange.

>>91016725
Captain America was the focus. Just not in the way some people wanted him to be, I guess. If somebody wants the central focus of this Captain America movie to be Steve's love life and emotions rather than Steve's core convictions and the effect of his ideology (a continuation of the themes of Winter Soldier but this time much more ambiguous) then I can see why someone would be disappointed. I liked the focus, but to each their own.

The idea of it reminds me a bit of Unbreakable, which I didn't like because I didn't like the large amount of focus on his shit family.

File: 5853642.jpg (47KB, 398x356px) Image search: [Google]

47KB, 398x356px

>tony wears a suit of armor that can take a tank round and be fine
>is somehow neutralized by a dude punching him with fists
That was kind of retarded for an otherwise neat movie.

>>91016783
But he punches really hard!

>>91012314
Adaptating the edit to test audiences...

Have they no artistic vision?

>>91016783
The guy in question ripped a state of the art combat aircraft apart on foot. Did you just forget these men are enhanced super soldiers? The fact that Tony nearly beat Cap and Bucky at the same time really should be enough.

>>91016783
Tony has been wrecked by chain gun fire.
He consciously avoids tank rounds from the first movie on, they would kill him.

>>91016783
He was slowly worn down by Cap's shield, which is tougher than his suit.

>>91016812
Yeah because his dad made it

>>91016788
kek

>>91015931
>>Cap goes "No one can tell me what to do because I'm always right."

More like
>Steve: Tony I read these stack of papers regarding the Sokovia Accords and they aren't very clear on what the rules are and I get the feelings that the people who wrote them might abuse their powers
>Tony: lol Steve don't worry just sign

Also Bucky being sent to his death without a trail and being silently extradited to a country ruled by Nigerian Cat Prince who wanted him dead because he thought he killed his daddy probably didn't sit well with him.

Also it's really funny everybody always makes the case for the accords and how superheroes should be controlled and whatever yet Tony sided himself with people who the Accords wouldn't touch or be able to hold them responsible (like Ross and T'challa).

Even Tony in the end ignores the Accords.

>>91016619
That such a bad reason especially if you consider that Steve wasn't raised in a traditional American household, without a father figure, by a single mother, and in a very liberal environment (especially since he was dirt poor and people who were poor back then at one point started having communist ideologies at least before the Cold War and McCarthyism happened).

Also you have to take into account that a lot of the Greatest Generation people as you met them went through the 50's and other life experiences that Steve never got to live due to being frozen.

>They had their emotional lives, but they never let anyone see them.
But Steve never had problems expressing his emotions, he cries in front of Peggy and then with Widow he lets himself break in front of her.

I honestly always felt that he just never liked burdening people with his own problems more than him being ashamed or reluctant of showing emotion, that and he has always been a very lonely person.

It was funny when STanley called Iron Man Tony STank. I laughed and spat beer all over the two white people in front of me

File: struckersultrons.jpg (253KB, 1920x1616px) Image search: [Google]

253KB, 1920x1616px

>>91015260
more than one of them too

>>91016783
The first suit was incredibly heavily armored, his new suits are light and mobile so he can call them from afar or hide them in his helicopter. A semi knocked the one in IM3 apart.
https://youtu.be/-pnOXuRI0vM

>>91012169
No, it's the sin of shit writing and cynical movie making

>>91016891
>No, it's the sin of shit writing and cynical movie making
Let's hear why the movie is written shitty

>>91016777
Cap has a lot of good stories and you can make a movie that also challenges Steve's core convictions and ideology in many different ways by only using him, his supporting characters, and villains and without awkwardly shoving Spider-Man scenes in it to promote his movie.

But the Russos frankly aren't that interested in Steve as a character as shown in >>91016413 and also them revealing that if they didn't get the OK to do Civil War they were going to do a shitty Mindbomb movie saying they wanted to do a social commentary on angry mobs or some bullshit.

Fricking Markus and Mcfeely were brainstorming better ideas with Zemo and the Grand Director and the whole Captain America being a legacy mantle with 50's Cap in interviews.

They also ride Black Widow's cock hard, they said she was Steve's most important relationship and then said she was the most adult of the Avengers.

>>91016874
It would be cool if he went back to basics and made a hardcore suit he has to put on like in the first Iron Man; a real tank suit.

>>91016725
I think the crossover shit is ultimately what will start hurting the characters and their personal narratives in the long run if the writers and directors don't reign it in and leave it for the team movies.

I mean Peter having Stark as his mentor and sugar daddy annoys me to no fucking end, also a big part of Peter's struggle was him being a teenager who took on the responsibilities of an adult especially after his Uncle died. Also when he became an adult he still had to meet rent, deal with an angry boss, manage a social life affected by his super hero career, etc...

Having a free ride from Tony negates and being to a prestigious science based rich kid high school negates a lot of that.

>>91017042
There was the Hulkbuster, but that's for special occasions, if he even keeps one around anymore, think it got pretty trashed.

>>91017065
But that too was modular.

I'm talking a fully built suit, not modular, one he has climb into.

>>91012966
>I never actually think about that AS I'm watching the movie

The entire concept of fridge logic is how the movie stands up AFTER WARDS.

I thought Star Trek Into Darkness was a perfectly entertaining and enjoyable film as I was watching it with a group of friends on an Imax premiere, ditto MoS (albeit less enjoyable as I though it dragged on too long in action at the last third).

As we were having dinner after the first movie, and drinks after the second, everyone (including people who were just casual fans, or even not fans at all) could find all sorts of faults. And it wasn't a 'let's find fault' conversation, it was, 'how did you like it.' And to a man, we all agreed we'd been entertained.

The conveniences and plot devices are the things that stick out the most - Zemo could have accomplished WHAT he wanted by simply sending that video tape that conveniently survived the machine being destroyed and existed some 25+ years in apparently only one location, of a taped event on a solitary country lane and we all know how prevalent CCTV is in the USA in 2017, so of course in the 80s and 90s, solitary country roads were just riddled with CCTV that was working perfectly just when it needed to.

>>91016947
Perhaps. I'm not going to argue that the movie couldn't possibly be any better, but I like what I got. And unlike some I do feel like the movie revolved around Captain America and his actions and beliefs. It really felt like it built on the ideas put forward in Winter Soldier. I saw it as a sequel to that first, but played from a lot more angles. I can dig that.

The Spiderman thing was added mostly for hype I think. It's also the consequence of trying to make all these movies a big interconnected thing. I admit I just thought it was cool seeing Spiderman take part in a Marvel film, but the way he was used was acceptable. It made Tony a little more sympathetic for the reasons stated here: >>91015902

But the whole movie was mainly about everyone trying to figure out what the right thing to do was. That theme speaks more to Cap's character than anyone. He is like this embodiment of righteousness and the ideals of his time. That's why I can't think of this as anything besides a Captain America movie. No matter who wins the coveted "____ was right" award.

File: 1305486096066.jpg (20KB, 210x230px) Image search: [Google]

20KB, 210x230px

>>91012169

This movie pissed me off since I watched it. There was no argument between Cap and Iron Man to begin with, Tony may've argued for the accords but the accords would've happened with or without him, the main reason Tony had to come back from retirement was to save everyone's ass from getting raped by international governments, Tony knew Steve wouldn't compromise, a conflict would've happened with or without him trying to mediate. Take Tony out of the story and you'd see even a worse conflict with BP and the government hunting Steve and his husbando, with worse conditions for the accords and the avengers actually being fugitives instead of special guests in Wakanda.

The whole topic was even more pointless since it ended in a fight between the avengers, having fun while destroying pritave property, it was like watching kids playing around till someone got seriously hurt, even after the fight ant-man and Clint were taunting Tony like some fucking 12yo.

This is normal for other MCU movies but this time it really didn't fit the serious ton they were going for, it just showed that the MCU as it is can't handle any grey zones and it shouldn't try to.

>>91012169
His parents were shown dying around the beginning of the movie
Dont underestimate the power of "my parents are dead" it's the "they took our jobs" of supers, especially rich supers.

>>91017202
The problem is that capes have very fragile foundation. They operate under assumption that heroes are all pretty much infailable, so it's OK to have them practice vigilatism in various forms and not upsetting the order of things at all. This notion is not very plausible and tends to fall apart when challenged. But letting it fall apart means the core premise of most capes (This is a very powerful good guy who beats up the bad guys and is outside the law and society is the same as real world) is no longer sustainable. So any conflict that rises questions about moral and legal foundation of vigilatism and its impact is doom to defend the indefensible and end with a cop-out.

>>91013231
The man even screamed "he killed my mom!" like what more is there? The ones that pulled the trigger are gone but the living tool they used is right fucking there. Scrww logic, revenge time is now.

>>91012169

I really sympathized with him as he tried to kill two guys he was working with and was willing to let the mastermind get away. BP is the real hero, getting shit done. Tony literally showed why the accords should be made just for him.

>>91013409
This bait went unnoticed and I can't have that. 8/10 bro, keep going

>>91012966
I agree that Wanda was awful but

>all for something he had no involvement in beyond manufacturing the munitions used by the army that destroyed her life (which may not even have been sold deliberately to them, considering Obadiah's tendency to go behind his back)

Fuck no that doesn't absolve Tony especially since he was still a fucking weapons manufacturer and he knew that and never gave a fuck about it or cared what happened to his weapons and even defended said weapons manufacturing until it directly affected him and then led to the events that made him Iron Man and ended with Yinsen's death.

But if it wasn't for that he could have gone his whole life not giving a shit about who his weapons hurt or who they were sold to, the whole Merchant of Death convo with Everhart even emphasizes this.

The Iron man movie doesn't even excuse him for it either, that's the whole point, Tony was an irresponsible and selfish man who only turns around when he sees war first hand and what his weapon truly cause.

And even afterwards Tony fucking always makes excuses for himself.

That's the thing, Steve's flaw is that when he thinks he's right he'll defend his position and he'll be stubborn about it but once he realizes he's wrong he'll immediately cede his stance. Heck he recognize he did bad by not telling Tony about his parents and even sends him a letter and everything because he recognized it was a fucked up thing to do (but Widow gets a free pass then again Tony has some weird daddy baggage with Steve and you can argue he that he expects Widow to be shady and to keep secrets).

Tony on the other hand will defend himself and make up excuses even when he knows he fucked up or he's wrong and he will try to correct it himself in his own way even by risking another potential fuck up.

>>91013231
>>91013470
>>91017334
Same, I don't judge Tony for that especially after he found out in the most awful way, in his shoes I would have gone ballistic too.

I also don't fault Steve for defending Bucky from Tony either, honestly it was a pretty tragic situation that was the point.

One of the movie's recurring themes is how human beings are affected by emotions.

My favourite thing about this movie is how it showed the Avengers are people; I felt Steve, Tony, Bucky, Wanda, Vision, T'challa, Sam, Rhodey, Clint, and Natasha, were all shown as noble, heroic, but also flawed and wrestling with uncertainty. I feel that's the movie's lasting achievement.

Because the base idea of should there be more control over a group that enforces laws and will launch attack overseas is obviously yes. Any time we don't control law enforcement of military it goes badly and is then very hard to deal with.

The story then instead needs to add layers of plot convenient reasons why it can't happen, so instead of the discussion being about the real issue it is oh but super special circumstance.

File: ec7e4a7a5d78df817afa6962315e4336.jpg (36KB, 480x480px) Image search: [Google]

36KB, 480x480px

>>91013579
Sure, except that when you realise that his single minded desire to create Ultron at any cost is driven by an extreme case of PTSD from the battle of New York where he not only discovered that alien life existed but was far more advanced than humanity, hostile, and able to attack at any moment. He is constantly riddled with PTSD and anxiety about this fact and feels like the only sane person who even seems to give a shit. He feels personally responsible for bringing the Avengers and the Earth to the point where this was a problem and nobody else seems to understand or care about the danger.

He was brash in creating Ultron without the support of his peers and should have proceeded with a clearer head and more safeguards. Ultron was a mistake and Tony was responsible for a lot of death and destruction as a result. But understanding why Tony felt the need to create Ultron and the emotional turmoil that he has been expericing since Avengers 1 makes him a compelling character. As snarky and quippy as he is he's the only one who seems to be taking the situation seriously, and he's not a soldier like Steve. He was a business guy and he's not equipped to cope with PTSD.

I'm not saying that Tony is in the right, because he often isn't. But his character arc has certainly been the most compelling.

>>91017417
Like the government becoming Neo Nazis a week ago. And the representative of their leash being the guy that fucked over Banner. And the accords also being written in a vague and manipulative way. But yeah Cap is the real problem. Shitty oversight is better than no oversight. Heck let's bring SHIELD back while we're at it.

>>91017246
>So any conflict that rises questions about moral and legal foundation of vigilatism and its impact is doom to defend the indefensible and end with a cop-out.

The cop-out was horrible in this case though, a pretend sad-ending with the villian "winning" eventhough that is not what happened at all.

Tony and Cap were never good friends to begin with, they hardly were in good terms, so there was not much of a friendship that could be damaged to begin with. Also Tony and Clint were in retirement and are now active heroes again. Spider-man, Ant-man and Black Panther joined the teams and even Cap leaving his shield which was supposed to be an emotional moment, didn't mean shit now that he is living in the country with the only vibranium ressources, he could have a shield, sword and a fucking armor if he wanted to. Also part of the avengers being fugitives doesn't mean shit either now that they are living in the most advanced country in the world.

Zemo only made the avengers stronger,

>>91017417
But, actually that's adding complexity.

Yes to regulation, overall...But...What if they need to respond quickly to an emergency?

>>91017470
But they are not in Wakanda. Cap's team seems to be in Scotland at the time Infinity War kicks off.

>>91017471
No because Bumfuckistan is an unstable military junta and going in there would cause an incident. Oh? Professor Genocider has a magic portal that allows Omega Death Hell into the world? Golly, but Generallisimo Hardass says there's no way that's happening.

Tell you what, mail your proof to my office and Ill have it in front of a committee on Monday.

>>91017470
>Tony and Clint were in retirement and are now active heroes again. Spider-man, Ant-man and Black Panther joined the teams and even Cap leaving his shield which was supposed to be an emotional moment, didn't mean shit now that he is living in the country with the only vibranium ressources, he could have a shield, sword and a fucking armor if he wanted to. Also part of the avengers being fugitives doesn't mean shit either now that they are living in the most advanced country in the world.

Nearly all of this is wrong.

>>91017451
Your reasons are exactly what I said, instead of the core principal pretty ridiculous reasons like nazis infiltrated the government there need to be there to make the other side seem reasonable.

>Shitty oversight is better than no oversight.
Okay so lets say the American government is pretty crappy and has shitty oversight. Do you want the police and army to have zero oversight and are allowed to do whatever they want? Now add on top these law enforcers have zero training, they just have powers so are allowed to do what they want. That would never be a good system.

>>91017471
No it isn't. Even with but governments can be corrupt it is still better than having a roaming militia who answers to no one.

>>91015065
You're literally advocating for mercenary vigilantism where foreign nations are invaded by unsanctioned and uncontrolled American agents "for the greater good". Tell that to all the people died in Nairobi due to them

>>91017471
>What if they need to respond quickly
What if they are wrong?
What if this just creates more instability and problems?
What if they are dealing with it themselves and do not need foreign aid?
What if these nobodies who half the time just fall on having powers fuck up the whole operation?
What if they go bad info but acted too quickly possibly even falling into a trap?
What if the heroes saying they will go help with no background check are actually there to help him and things are ten times worse?

No you are right we should just let anyone attack any country they feel like cause they need to be quick.If you suspect a country is up to something bad you should go bomb it.

Being all fuck the red tape is nice but not really that smart.

>>91017512
>Nearly all of this is wrong.

nice prove you have there pal.

>>91017515
Are the police made up of iconic superheroes who have saved the world on several occasions when everyone else was powerless to do so? No? Then holy shit! MAYBE we're comparing two very different things in order to make a false equivalency between the world you and I live in and a magical made up fairy tale where such super heroes and world ending super villains exist!

But that would be really dumb. Let's not draw such a ridiculous parallel.

Because you see, in this setting, the government being overrun with Neo Nazis isn't some petty plot contrivance to make the hero of the next movie sympathetic. It's the core of the setting. The whole reason these movies exist is the idea that shit like that can happen and super heroes are the answer.

But please tell me more about your grounded geopolitical views. Do you think Superman should be allowed to fly over Syria?

>>91017392

The problem was always Stark weapons being misused. He was cool with it before he realised he had no idea what was being done with them, and takes up a violent lifestyle afterwards where he's still whizzing around in a superweapon.

>>91017569
I was actually saying it's better to have oversight but there are risks with that as well.

>>91017591
>iconic superheroes who have saved the world
That is all the justification you need? Being iconic and did good in the past? Well anyone who has stopped a crime before should just be given a badge and told you are the law now, that would end well.

No we don't just give out unregulated power cause someone did good in the past.

>It's the core of the setting
Which has to exist for there to be a legitimate argument. Like I said you can't argue against the base idea without sounding like a loon who wants lynch mobs back. Stories like this exist to cause discussion on a point which do have meaning in the real world, in this case it is vigilante justice. When one side's argument is so lopsided you need to add towers of bullshit to make it seem more reasonable then it is obvious who is right.

Even if you can go but Nazis there are process to remove someone from positions of power. That does not somehow make unregulated vigilante groups a great thing.

>>91015260
"Ultron" was just some defense program Tony wrote, the AI that took it's name was housed inside the staff.

>>91017591
>who have saved the world on several occasions
Which teh regularly also caused

Even more so if we talk about comic civil war, I really don't want some pubescent kid who is messing up cause a girl they like didn't say hi to be the main source of justice. Even in comics that regularly doesn't end well.

>>91017451
But Steve wasn't oppose to there being an oversight, he questioned the methods and some shady and vague stuff in the accords but ultimately he was willing to discuss them and work with Tony.

But Zemo fucked it up and then Bucky being given to the wolves was what made him just fucking go off the rails and focus on saving his friend and figuring out who was manipulating them.

>>91017509
That's true, I mean in a superhero world if you have a villain doing some obviously dangerous shit like opening a portal that will swallow reality the hero should obviously go in and stop him regardless of what some head of state says.

I also thought Ross and the others shitting on the Avengers for helping during the Chitauri invasion was idiotic, especially after they revealed that pretty low civilian casualties count, if anything the Avengers fucking prevented more deaths especially with Tony redirecting that nuclear missile (maybe the accords should also held accountable shady shadow government groups).


>>91017607
That doesn't absolve him of anything since he still manufactured the weapons and gave someone else the responsibility to decide how to use them so he obviously did not give much of a fuck.

Him experiencing firsthand what his weapons did and them being misused was part of why he took responsibility, that and Yinsen confronting him about it.

>>91017730
Wrong.

>>91017805
>you have a villain doing some obviously dangerous shit like opening a portal that will swallow reality the hero should obviously go in and stop him regardless of what some head of state says.
What if the villain claims to be a hero doing it for the good of mankind? Or are heroes just allowed to attack heroes?

Seems like every citizen could declare themselves a super hero (seeing as good with bow is enough of a power) thus are exempt from a variety of laws. A whole military force could and thus wage unjust wars legally

File: 1460840948865.jpg (51KB, 559x516px) Image search: [Google]

51KB, 559x516px

>>91012966
>I want the big one

Stark was 100% in the wrong. The whole point is that Tony does what he thinks is right for the Avengers, where Cap uses the Avengers to do what is right even if other people don't like it. As a result, Cap finds out about Zemo, saves a tortured WW2 veteran, and is now involved with the establishment of the largest spy organization on the planet, protecting people where Tony's fake "Avengers" can't go.

Tony helped put his fellow Avengers in a prison overseen by the guy who tormented Bruce Banner for twenty years. He failed in building positive relations between UN nations, failed in stopping Zemo, failed in keeping the Avengers together, and failed in appeasing Wakanda.

Tony did what the mob herd told him to do, Cap did what was needed in order to save the world even if nobody liked it.

File: 1rtrpum.gif (930KB, 500x281px) Image search: [Google]

930KB, 500x281px

>>91012169
And this is why heroes are nothing more than a meme. The world is a cruel place. It's kill or be killed.

Or at least Monsoon would say something along those lines if he and the avengers met.

>>91014465
But they are not a pure organization. Even the mess in avengers 1 is their fault.

>>91014953
Wanda belongs to jail and only jail

>>91019218
Wanda did nothing wrong.
Africa got it coming.

>>91015931
>Rookie heroes

The only Rookie on the New Warriors was Microbe. The rest were, frankly, more veteran than someone like Echo, who was a frigging Avenger at the time.

>>91014494
and fucking steven strange refused to help him

File: 1462799212719.png (269KB, 500x500px) Image search: [Google]

269KB, 500x500px

on the other hand, I understand that Cap didn't betray his lover, that was really hearwarming.

>>91018505
Tony put international criminals in jail as he should.

>>91015931
Steve was more wary of beurocracy getting in the way of actual crisis, as well the potential for corruption and abuse.

>>91019890
Criminals who broke a law that shouldn't exist in the first place? I bet you also think people who smoke marijuana should be in jail.

>>91019890
Without trial, in international waters so US laws don't apply to them

>>91020035
Are you stupid? They illegally brake into several countries, Steve attacked the police, they thrashed an airport. They smuggle weapons into every country they went into. It's not about the accords you dumbass.

>>91020066
And who. Is talking about us law? Their crimes were made in European, Asian and African soil.

>>91020108
The Avengers do what needs to get done to protect the countries you claim they "break into", dumbass. Steve disarms the police so that he can prevent an innocent individual from being killed and framed, fuck you.

>>91020137
>Africa
First off, nothing actually happened IN Wakanda. Second, Wakanda in the MCU is legally not part of Africa, they're incredibly isolationist and consider themselves completely independent.

Actually, upon reflection, Europe is the only continent on Earth that considers each individual nation part of "Europe" for legal purposes.

>>91012169
its actually hard to tell, polls have run all over the place
sometimes cap wins by a landslide, other times iron man wins by a slight lead
the best i can say is that things each side can hold its own fan wise

>>91014001
Because Cap doesn't trust the government more than himself after seeing SHIELD be compromised in WS. And Bucky is his waifu. Do you even Cap?

File: 3752ef2af76e4e0ac97a9af318deef52.jpg (233KB, 736x1663px) Image search: [Google]

233KB, 736x1663px

>>91021591
>The Avengers do what needs to get done to protect the countries
Okay, now look at it from the world's perspective. The Avengers have nothing stopping them from invading a given Hydra stronghold in bumfucktown and putting the local population at risk when Hydra fights back in full force. Keep in mind, Hydra, throughout it's occupation of this stronghold, has done nothing to antagonize the locals, and the Avengers have a Hulk they aren't afraid to use if the situation calls for it (granted, they rarely deploy banner, but the countries of the world aren't happy with juet trusting their judgement.)

The issue isn't that the Avengers need to be hrld accountable. That was just Ross's way of guilt tripping them. The issue is some countries want to have a say in whether or not the superpowered super people get to engage the enemy in their crowded population centers. As it stands the Avengers have nothing stopping them from initiating heated combat with a given force and endangering the innocents that might be nearby, or damaging the nearby infrastructure (Stark can pay for the damages all he wants; he can't fix everything and reconstruction takes a LOT of time.)

>>91015023
The only difference between Cap and the Punisher is the size of their bodycounts.

>>91012169
Are people really sympathetic to cap anyway?
I'm not american, and always despised him simply because of his 'origins', even tho I don't really dislike his movies. I can understand why people older than 40 would tho.
And on the other hand, we have iron man, played by the PERFECT actor, totally fit for that role.
The guy with the 'perfect' flaws, that always makes everyone laugh and is smart as fuck.
They're not even on the same playing field, IMO.

>>91024469
What's wrong with Cap?

>>91024552
I always found patriotism retarded.
And then, who is he really? He doesn't have any real flaws, any real fears, he's just a perfect soldier that's stuck in the 50's america's mindset.
I'm not saying that he's LITERALLY THE WORST, or anything.
But he's so bland and.. cliché, I guess?

>>91024552
He's white.

>>91024653
Well 40s and movies play up the whole "everyone I love is dead except my bro who was mindraped by Communazis" though I guess his other flaw is he's constantly working for the wrong people.

File: 1480119272123.gif (2MB, 320x454px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 320x454px

>>91013231
To be fair it had been a pretty long day.

>>91012851
I figured her and Pietro were supposed to be still technically in their teens.(18/19 OR similar to Cap's age when he took the serum as parallels which would make em closer to 15/16)
The two of them were supposed to show how something similar to Captain America's desire to serve could go wrong.
The inconsistencies in how old they actually look is more due to how media casts people in their late 20's as high schoolers which would make an actually young actor look younger than their real age to the audience.

>>91012169
Sympathetic? He's an asshole selling everyone ELSE out for his personal mistakes.
The sympathy he apparently engenders just goes to show how the most dangerous individuals are the ones that know how to make you forget about their atrocities.

>>91012169
>that filename

>>91024653
I think Cap's real flaw is he just likes fighting. He really loves fighting a lot and can't stop. It's the only consistent thread in his entire life. He was made to inspire fighting the good fight and then he was put to use doing nothing but that. And now it'll never end.
He has principles and beliefs, but they're mostly employed so he's not harming innocent people. Cap is sort of like a sentient gun who only wants to be held by people who'll shoot to protect but can't seem to stop falling into the hands of people who love to shoot anything that moves. But he can never stop being a gun and he knows it.

>>91025729
I think Whedon was going for that angle but I didn't see that much in the Russo movies, he kind if at least tries to make a life for himself outside fighting in those movies especially when Sam comes into the picture.

I'm an MCU apologist, but Civil War the movie was even worse than the comic

>>91024469
Outside of the first Iron Man movieTony became le quippy smartass asshole who fucks up and gets little to no consequences for it and morphed into pretty much any stock smartass character, honestly I'm tired of him.

>>91019890
He should put himself in jail then for making Ultron.

But the laws don't apply to people like him, Ross or T'challa.

>>91025729

It's not that he likes it but it's the only thing he knows how to do. Like those dudes who keep rejoining the army bc they can't adapt to civilian life. For Cap it's also exaggerated by the "out of time" stuff.

>>91017730
>My Iron Manlet dindu nuffin

>>91019807
Apparently that was not Rhodey.

>>91018010
>Obviously building something dangerous and the Avengers know even have the proof for it
>Villain: Lol no I'm a hero
>Avengers: Awww shit I guess we can't do anything
>Everyone dies

I guess when Thanos comes and starts killing everyone no one can do anything unless Ross is OK with it.

> Wanda and Steve
> Peter and Tony

I liked how those scenes mirrored. Steve and Peter bring like "you gotta do what's right."

Wanda and Tony both like, "maybe I should do nothing".

>>91014440
Cap didn't tell him not to be mad tho, he knew his anger was legit and justified.

He was just trying to keep Stark from killing Bucky and stall him so Bucky could escape.

>>91026187
Ross: "Vision is a machine...If they leave us alone, let them take the stone. It's demise is no loss."

Ross is definitely going to throw Vision under the bus.

>>91014548
No fuck that, he still was in his senses when he made Ultron even if Wanda just gave him that push to motivate him. He still made that decision.

He also wanted to drop a country full of people still in it to stop his mess until Cap told him no and that they should evacuate people first.

>>91026187
>Obviously building something dangerous
You mean like some experimental AI defence program by some crazy alcoholic? Or some radiation experiment? Or Scarjo's bad acting?

>>91014548

This. Also Hydra already had ultron's body ready.

>>91012169
>Wanda is the one under house arrest
>Meanwhile Tony has no legal problems despite being the creator of Ultron
This man would at the very least be broke. Completely broke from all the lawsuits.

God damn, Why Tony suffers so much in MCU.
Iron man 1. Learns the hard way truth about his weapons. And like a decent human being he shuts it down, thinks of a different way to protect people. His partner betrays him, he almost die twice, but everything turn up pretty good.
Iron man 2. Slowly dying from poisoning, almost got killed again by some nutjob with his own costume, his friend shits on him and steals his costume. Yet Tony end up saving the day once again, not without help from Shield.
Avengers. It's not an asshole humans anymore, Gods and aliens trying to take over the world, He fights like hell, takes down fucking leviathan, while his buddies with fists, bows and guns gets beaten up and yet again he have to save a fucking day, by redirecting a nuclear warhead, basically sacrificing himself. Luckily survives, while his buddies didn't even thought about trying to save him.
Iron Man 3. Scared as fuck after the god damn alien attacks, afraid that shit like this will happen again and it might not be as easy as it was, so he makes a shit load of costumes just in case. Yet again, some asshole killing people, yet again he had to intervene and saves the day, his buddy, his gf and the president himself. Calmed down, got rid of his costumes so he could have a normal life.
Avengers 2. Mother Fucking Hydra, popped out of nowhere. Assemble Avengers, make costume again, run in, save the day, and find a mind gem. Finds a way to create something, that will help establish a world's safety, replace Avengers and will finally let him rest. "You fucked up son" - his every teammate. And when we fight again. And when we win, but damage is already done, people died and it's his fault.

File: 1-qR1nTumyur-BPXi4_2eG7w.gif (4MB, 480x198px) Image search: [Google]

4MB, 480x198px

>>91027540
Civil war. Trying to make it up with the world, by giving away money to students, but he can't escape the guilt, gf broke up, government puts him under pressure, trying to put a leash on them, and he had to agree to the terms, because of his own mistakes and his buddies, who were playing heroes and led to death of some people. Team now divided, Cap acting like a cunt because of his buddy and he now have to turn them in. Well guess what, he's friend is paralyzed, half the team is in prison, everyone hates his guts, but some asshole is going to release supersoldiers, which will led to another conflict so of course he can't let that happen. He runs to Cap, admits his mistake and trying to help.
And when he watches man standing 10 feet away from him punching his father to death and strangling his mother. And guess what, your buddy cap knew all along.
He's fucking broken guys.

>>91027540
>>91027585
Typical Starker luck.

File: 1468903892276.jpg (20KB, 300x365px) Image search: [Google]

20KB, 300x365px

>>91027585
>Civil War
>Got away with everything. Please pity me anyway because I have guilt.

>>91027585
idc I'll always love him.
I just hope we let him have a good ending before he gets replaced by the bitch.

>>91012169
>He's my friend, Tony.
>So was I.
Hahahahha, was he fucking drunk or something?

>>91012169
Still didn't like him. Made him seem like a child to me.

>>91012226
this, worst shit was that steve knew for some reason and hid this from him deliberately

>>91012851
>What got me was Cap's repeated insistence that she's "just a kid".

To Cap, literally everyone on the roster is just a kid. The guy's pushing a hundred easy.

>>91029573
>steve knew for some reason
im prety sure buky told him wen steve asked about zemo

>>91029675
Cap sees alot of himself in her.

> Result of experiment
> No home
> An immigrant (Cap is an immigrant from another time)
> Powers are part of who she is, as with Cap.

Cap being protective of Wanda is straight from the comics.

Cap believes in Wanda, which is important, given she does not believe in herself.

>>91012169
>Stark as most sympathetic character
>not T'Challa
at least Panther was able to recognize he was wrong in the end
Stark went back to his compound to pout instead of telling the world of Zemo's manipulation, thus setting his "friends" free
instead, like always, Cap had to clean up his mess

>>91029679
Cap knew that Hydra was involved in Tony's parents deaths. He never truly knew that Bucky was the killer but he always suspected deep down.

>>91027311
Tony and Banner are fucking mad scientist tier crazy

Also Ross was involved in the radiation experiment.

Yet Ross and Stark want to regulate others? They should regulate themselves first.

File: oGm0j4w8vn.jpg (16KB, 276x400px) Image search: [Google]

16KB, 276x400px

>>91027585

>>91027540

>Avengers 2

You forgot

>Tony Stark: Cap, I have to blow up the city!
>Steve Rogers: There are still people up here
>Tony Stark: It's everybody up here, or everybody down there!

If it wasn't for Cap and Fury everyone in Sokovia dies, Stark was willing to kill innocent people to stop something HE created.

Also you portray Stark as a defenseless baby, he is a millionaire who has the power to affect people's lives in a pretty drastic and deadly way more than any Avenger sans Hulk and Thor. He has done good stuff and has saved people but he also has done some pretty fucking awful and up shit and he NEVER gets his comeuppance.


>>91027585
I would be more sympathetic to him if he wasn't such an irresponsible asshole who makes excuses for himself and got away with shit and no him PTSD doesn't count, other characters have PTSD and no one fucks up as bad as him and makes excuses for it, even Wanda who is a giant fuck up up admitted her faults.

I always hated how in Avengers after Steve comes out of the ice, after he lost his life, friends, love, everything, the first thing Tony does when they have a quiet moment together is to sperg on Steve and make fun of his situation with "lol you're old" "Capsicle" and making inane shitty comments about pilates because he thinks he's being funny. He also zaps Banner and risks him Hulking out because it amuses him.

And later we get some context because his daddy didn't pay attention to him and loved Cap, that's not even Steve's fault.

>>91031073
It's too big for Tiny Stank

>>91017832
>>91026072

I'm not defending Stark, but:

Seeking only to protect the world, Tony Stark and Bruce Banner originally devised the idea for Ultron as an extension of the Iron Legion, operating independently as their own peacekeeping force so the Avengers were no longer needed to save the world. However, neither Banner nor Stark were able to create the intelligence level of A.I. necessary to achieve this purpose on a large scale.

After the assault on the HYDRA Research Base, and the retrieval of the Scepter, Stark asked Thor if he could study it before Thor took it back to Asgard. Upon studying the Scepter, Stark and Banner found a net of neurons could be configured into an artificial intelligence that could finish the Ultron Program. At first Banner refused to help, but with a bit of persuasion he agreed. The two eventually configured a suitable AI structure and left J.A.R.V.I.S. to complete the work.[2]