Why is Lady Shiva the best fighter in the DCU? Like, Batman

>>90914229
Batman's training was too broad. He trained in many different disciplines so that he had the necessary skills to help protect Gotham. Shiva trained with O-Sensei since childhood to be a martial arts god.
Also I think Richard Dragon is the world's greatest martial artist.

>>90914229
Cass is the daughter of Shiva

Batman learned and mastered every martial art created
Shiva is like some assassin who has hype
She just knows a lot of killing techniques

If batman killed he would absolutely be better than her

>>90914412
The greatest DCU martial artist is pretty unequivocally Karate Kid.

After that, it kind of drops to a three-way tie between Richard Dragon, Bronze Tiger and Lady Shiva, sometimes with Cass Cain in there as a fourth.

After that it goes down to people like Black Canary, Sensei (for two minutes at a time anyway) and so on, before Batman swings in somewhere near the bottom of the top ten.

Even so, the differences between them all aren't exactly large. Except for Karate Kid. Because he's in a league of his own, way above the rest of them.

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>>90914229
Deathstroke has less skill, but his raw power is well into the superhuman and more than makes up for it. Cassandra Cain is explicitly so good that she's ranked as metahuman, and he toys with her.

>>90914229
I dont think she is the best fighter, I think she may have been at one point, but shes gotten her ass handed to her by bruce cass and I think even dick

>>90914229

You don't get it.

Sometimes, the best in the class isn't the one working hardest at it first of all.

Those other guys, they are known for all that stuff that enhances their aptitude in the martial arts.

Shiva is defined by them. She is not known for doing all that or being a superhuman, she is known for being the best. She was the best because someone had to be. Maybe it's just easier for her. She can't do half the shit all those other people can with their disciplines and physicality, but she's the best fighter.

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>>90917488
That may be a decent justification in real life, but it makes her a bit shit and boring as fiction

Unless you're a purely comedic character

>>90914229

Because DC needed a martial artist they could have other martial artists beat if they wanted to make it clear that "this character is seriously good, like woah, they even beat Lady Shiva!".

>>90914229
>best non-superhuman fighter in the DCU

Fixed. Also she's not, Karate Kid is.

>>90917583
Karate Kid is off in however many thousands of years in the future

At least, conceptually he is

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>>90914229
Because way back in the late 80s she featured in Denny O'Neil and Denys Cowan's The Question run, where she was explicitly the absolute best fighter in the entire run. The best Question himself can do is come like five inches from touching her, and that's only after a whole year of nothing but mountain training with Richard Dragon. This worked because in a series so intensely gritty and down to Earth as Question, Shiva's unearthly skill showcased her as a very ethereal, inhuman presence. A point that was further driven in by her taoist philosophy and general aloof mannerisms.
Then came Jim Starlin and Chuck Dixon who only got the "mercenary martial artist" part of her character and did almost completely away with the rest of it. Suddenly Shiva was less about her own self-growth and more about just punching people, training people, or punching people to train them. And because books like Death of the Family and Knightfall were way bigger sellers than Question, that kind of bland, shallow, ultimately hollow characterization is what persevered for most of the 90s.
Kelley Puckett tried to bring her back to her O'Neil roots in Batgirl, but also introduced the idea of her looking for someone who could kill her, which long story short I never agreed with. Then Gabrych completely rewrote her backstory to tie her even further to Cassandra Cain, in the process fucking her characterization even more. And around the same time, Jeph Loeb introduced the extremely damaging idea of Shiva working for the League of Assassins in Hush, which has lead to even blander characterization.

tl;dr: the surface elements of Shiva's character were taken and inflated by writers in lieu of her deeper elements, which ended up hollowing her out. At her best, DC has no other character like her. At her worst, they have five fucking dozen.

>>90918369
What he said.

Because its sjw femisnist gurl power garbage. Thank god dc came to their senses and made her a dinosaur punching bag

>>90915399
Karate Kid being in the future typically counts him out in these discussions.

>>90914229
She listens to this every day:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vRlJrkxsqo

>>90914609
>Martial Arts skill is now a genetic trait

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>>90914229
Because Shiva is a displaced Hokuto No Ken character, that ending up in the DCU as a baby. She was suppose to serve in Raoh's army. So she will never reach her true potential.

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>>90919212
Stop reading my Elseworlds ideas, you... you... TOUGH BOY

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A chance to post this. So how would this go down, if it was to happen?

>>90919301
I forgot to add, the left side are the students and the right side are the teachers.

>>90915399
>>90919012
Know any good stories featuring Karate Kid? I think he's cool.

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>>90919301
The Big Two characters get fucking murdered

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>>90919353
Not a vs thing anon. I updated the pic.

>>90919353
>implying Karate Kid wouldn't just use anti-god karate on him

>>90919470
>Implying anything can stop HAKAI

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>>90919447
Y'know, I don't think Ken would be the best fit for Cass. Even without all the stuff about the Hokuto Shinken succession, I imagine that getting to learn Shinken's healing techniques also means learning the killing ones, and I dunno how OK Cass would be over knowing how to make everyone experience the pain of everyone they've killed for five seconds before their heads explode. Even if she got to cure blindness in the trade-off. I feel like she'd be better off under Toki or Shu.
That said, I'd love to see Post-Apoc/Atomic Age Cassandra Cain.

>>90919767
Shuu? Mai nigga. Cass would be a Nanto user. Toki would be a good teacher too, but not quite her combat style.

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>>90919891
Does Nanto even have any healing techniques tho'? I can't really recall any Nanto users doing much more than shredding motherfuckers into cubes. Which I'm sure Cass would get a lot of use when fighting dudes with weapons or robots or superpowered foes, but in day to day fighting I still feel it'd be too much.

>>90914229
>Like, Batman trained from age 8 to do nothing but solve crimes and beat up criminals
No he didn't. Didn't he begin his training once he was like, 18? There's no way he started when he was 8.

In any case, like other anons have pointed out, Batman trained across many different fields, to the point where he's skilled in many different disciplines, but isn't really a master at any of them, save detective work and being a tactician.

>>90920081
there definitely healing ninjas in Naruto. Did you even read properly?

>>90914699
Batman isn't even the top five greatest fighters.

>>90919351
He's had a mini or two but is best as part of the LoSH ensemble so it's really the tidbits between other moments that you enjoy.

>>90920256
Well, he's not supposed to be, but DC has Batman beating Lady Shiva, Deathstroke, etc. semi-regularly right? They kinda forgot that he's a detective before a martial artist.

>>90920256
>>90920202
Except DC itself has said that he is in the top 3 fighters in the entire DC universe.

>>90920330
Only in tie in comics to video games and shit.

>>90920385
He's beaten karate kid and lady shiva and deathstroke in the main universe.

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>>90920383
Only because he is DC's highest grossing cash cow.

>>90920418
A mind controlled KK. Normal, in his mind KK would floor Bats.

>>90920418
>karate kid
was sick as fuck and got taken down by black lightning from behind
>shiva
lost to fill her role she was payed for
>deathstroke
I see no problem

>>90920383
When was this? Was this recently? Pre-nu52 in theory, Cass, Shiva, Richard Dragon, and Bronze Tiger alone were all better than him. But to be fair, that shit didn't even matter when he beat most of them save Cass like all the time and even beat KK that one time, because BatGod.

>>90914229
>But Shiva's backstory never does a good job of justifying just what makes her the best.
Combination of total dedication to training in the martial arts and innate natural talent.

>>90920479
This, Black Lightning took down KK. Bruce actually lost the 1v1 fight.

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>>90920479
>>90920418
Regarding Shiva/Batman, it goes like this:
Death in the Family - needed help from Jason Todd, was getting his ass handed to him before he jumped in.
Knightsend - literally spent hours sparring with her before he could land a single punch.
Superman/Batman - she was being mind-controlled by Gorilla Grodd.
New52 Nightwing - same as with Death in the Family, only with Dick instead of Jason.
At this point the idea that Batman can 1v1 Shiva without any mitigating factors is more extrapolation/misquotings than actual canon. Unless you include videogames or cartoons.

>>90920298
Okay then. What's a good Legion of Super-Heroes book where he has a prominent role?

>>90920330
Just because he wins doesn't mean he's the better fighter. That's why I loved that Brave and the Bold episode. "When outmatched, cheat!"

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>>90919767

I'd rather see Shiva take in a cub Cass, then go to town to town around the world getting involved in various shit with the artist changing to fit the style for that story.

>>90920383

Someone should ask King this. See if he takes the bait and gives an honest answer. Then grab the popcorn if he does and all the Batman fans start replying, "HOW CAN THAT BE?!"

>>90920485

Tiger and Shiva wiped the floor with Bruce. Do we really want to include Countdown in this given that is the only time he fought the KK and won by being Batgod?

>>90914229
Shiva is willing to kill
the Batfam is not
Slade is a soldier a mercenary not a some muh honor autist martial artist. also lacks depth perception

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I'm still surprised to this day that DC has never had an arc for Cass that involved a tournament. Shiva and Connor Hawke did.

Or Cass going into a building filled to the brim with criminals.

>>90918369

You write this fucking diatribe EVERY thread she's discussed. It's been like 30 years, dude. She was like that for one run, way less than her other characterizations. Fucking let it go.

>>90922533
>the characterization established by Shiva's creator Denny O'Neil doesn't matter

>>90915475
i think tim and jason too haha

>>90920383
it's a stupid thing to try and rank though.
when you've got someone like superman who's innately faster, stronger and tougher than shiva, richard dragon, ben turner, etc, how do you even begin to rank them without drawing an arbitrary line?

>>90922042
DC needs an earth tournament with brackets based on power levels. Humans, low level metas, mid level metas, and high level metas. Would be cool to see.

Maybe a universal tournament at some point too.

>>90922800
People consistently shit on batman's original premise. Why should Shiva be any different?

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>>90922533
> she was like that in one run.

A bit more than that. O'Neill wrote her in her first appearance in Richard Dragon, Question, then the x-over with Batman, Green Arrow, and Question. Then the cameo in Azrael and finally one more time in the Blackest Night.

Not the judge, but I do enjoy Puckett's Shiva and have a tiny soft spot for Gail Simone's. At least when she wrote the character in Vol. 1 of BoP.

>>90915399
>The greatest DCU martial artist is pretty unequivocally Karate Kid.
I want a story where Cass meets Karate Kid and is unable to even stand anywhere she can see him because he's basically SEX ON FEET to her

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>>90922533
Sorry man, but she's one of my favorite parts of one of my favorite comic runs ever. And the current 'Tec arc is making it a sore-ass subject.

>>90923129
>Richard Dragon
Man, OG 70s Shiva is hilarious.

>>90923200
>Comic where Cass and KK fight, but she's so goddamn aesthetic that he has to stop the fight because he's ruined his gi
Fund it.

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I was gonna say something. But looking at Benes-drawn Shiva and a totally soaked Cheshire. The mind just wanders to places.What were we talking about?

>>90923289
better if the Bat-senpai finds her half-passed out after Kid has owned some dudes, not understanding she had multiple orgasms just by watching him.

The idea that Batman can't beat Shiva is laughable. Cheshire beat her, so did Tim Drake. She couldn't beat Connor Hawke, and couldn't beat Huntress.

I'm not sure why writers always have Batman fighting her straight up in H2H with no gadgets or strategy or anything like an idiot when he's a combat genius and one of the greatest tacticians in the world.

>>90921630
King listed Bruce third among Batfamily members alone. He might not even be top 10 if they have everyone else too.

>>90920232
Nobody's talking about Naruto, Anon. Nanto is the slicing martial arts in Hokuto no Ken.

>>90920485

Just because someone says in some bumfuck issue of Tec' that "he's one of the best fighters on the planet" doesn't make it true. Batman is top 3, Bronze Tiger too. Cass is a autistic Chinese chick, and she has no feats, which are all that really matters.

And fuck Shiva.

>>90924336
>Cass is a autistic Chinese chick, and she has no feats, which are all that really matters.
>And fuck Shiva.


Nice bait anon.

>>90923458
>Cass tells Steph she lost her virginity to Karate Kid
>"Really? Oh my god, what was it like?"
>"He broke a man's arm with one finger then shattered all the windows with one punch"
>"But... but what did he do to you?"
>"Nothing, we are allies"

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>>90924918
>Val barges in carrying an unconscious Cass in his arms
>"Oh crap what happened?"
>"I used the Eclipsing Centaurian Fist of Ten Harmonious Sunflares to bring down an attack helicopter and she just sort of--"
>They get her mask off
>Cass has the goofiest smile in her face

>>90925427
> just watching Karate Kid walking it's like super-hot foreplay for her

>>90920081
Sakura, Tsunade and Naruto are all healers.

>>90915399
>Bronze Tiger
"no"

>>90915399
Didn't the senseid wreck the everloving shit out of Batman and Ras at the same time? Like they literally couldn't see him, he had trained for centuries.

>>90925515
>Karate Kid doing exercises
>Cass in the background biting her knuckle and sweating

>>90920330
>>90920385
>>90920418

Yeah in shitty tie in comics or video games he is the best but canonically the reason Batman is better at beating them is because he cheats.

Case in point on how he beat Karate Kid. That guy kicked batman's ass but Bruce led him to a trap to electrocute him.

That is how Shiva was beaten by Tim Drake who is by far the weakest fighter of the bat family; way above Steph. Tim used sleeping gas on her to knock her out.

The bat family wins because they always fight dirty with the resources they have. It's also why Deathstroke has an edge against other mercs.

I really, REALLY need to get around to writing a "Enter the Dragon but with Batkids" story.

I can just never pin down who to include, and what the villain's evil scheme is running this recruitment tournament for. Drugs seems so . . . Dated.

>>90931941
Isn't just collecting am eclectic band of martial arts masters to fight for your amusement reason enough these days?

Karate Kid is the best fighter


Batman is just the best all around street fighter taking into account tactics, intellect, tools

But the best pure martial artist is karate kid

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>>90931941
>>90932106
A cultist of Ares who's using black magic to siphon the violent energy of bloody martial conflict into a devastating weapon of infinite power?

>>90932106
"Why are you doing this!?"
"It is my fetish."
"Eeewww!"

>>90932326
My God. It's also an excuse to write a scene of Cass and Diana/Wonder Woman together!

Now, who should join Cass on this mission? Friend and Foe alike?

>>90932149
Karate Kid is best taking the future into account.
Shiva is the best only taking to account fighting skill.
Batman is the best at grasping victory.

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>>90932629
Prolly the usual suspects. Connor Hawke, Bronze Tiger... I'd love to see Lynx lurkin' around there somewhere. Maybe Artemis too, if there's gonna be amazon stuff.

>>90932953
What the fuck is Silver Monkey up to?

>>90920202
He started to be Batman at 27 and trained for 12 years. So 15/16

>>90920949
We'll even in Arkham Origins you don't beat her. She's like the only assassin who he doesn't arrest

La señorita Sheeva doesnt sounds good in Spanish, it sounds like you were talking to a maid.

>>90932953
I'd limit it to teens for two reasons:

1) It allows Stephanie Brown to fill in either Roper (John Saxon) or Williams' (Jim Kelly) role in the story.
2) I just like/know more about teen heroes of all stripes.

>>90933405
no he beat her during his training
She came back to Gotham because she wanted to fight him again
Shiva ran off before Bruce could arrest her unfortunately

>>90933941
But then it's just that Avengers Academy story arc with Arcade. And THAT was just the Teen Titans story arc where Clock King forced them to fight in a tournament.

>>90931941
Prometheus. The entire tournament is nothing more than a means to record and analyze the techniques and skills of dozens of the world's best fighters so he can download that information into his brain.

>>90934466
1) Just because they botched it doesn't mean it can't be done well. If anything, it's closer to the "Final Exam" arc of Deadly Class.
2) This is a voluntary entry situation
3) The point isn't to 'win' the tournament, but to gather evidence on the big bad evil guy and take him down.

>>90923043
Because Batman's original premise was pretty dumb while O'Neill's Question run was actually good.

>>90934630

You just read my mind anon.What better way to gain new methods and complete files by luring people like Cassandra, Shiva, Tiger, Slade, Rose, and anyone. Heck King Snake can be his frontman making it seem all "Enter the Dragon" until the reveal he ain't the end boss but the bait to get all the information.

Though I'd love Tim to be in this. Just so he's one shotted in the first round and then starts to piece together the whole entire affair after Shiva figured it all way before then.

But really what we all want is Shiva and Cass to team up to lay the almighty smackdown on Prometheus. I mean can there be just one tale where the two of them actually team-up? CAN WE HAVE THAT AT LEAST ONCE?!

>>90935475
I think I'd like it if Prometheus got away in the end, as he'd already left once he got the information he needed.

>>90914229
Cassandra (striking to kill) > Shiva > Batman > Vic Sage > Cassandra (holding back and hesitating)

>>90915399
Where would you put Damian Wayne in your rankings?

>>90914229
Question all 4 of them with any traditional weapons they want and any guns that exist in real life. But no preptime

VS

Spider-man. Who's actually to kill them because he thinks they killed a bunch of spider people.

Can they win?

>>90935475
That point with Tim reminds me of the Tournament arc in Immortal Iron Fist

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One thing I never understood about the Batman vs Shiva thing is why doesn't Batman just use his gadgets? Batman has way overpowered gadgets that can easily handle any hand to hand fighter, especially after new52.

>>90914229
>Why is Lady Shiva the best fighter in the DCU?
But she isn't, Richard Dragon is the best fighter.

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What was the deal with this guy, was he the real Richard Dragon or not?

>>90940476
gadgets can be broken

>>90940920
It doesn't matter because it'll be ignored. But the flashbacks showed he was some low tier mobster's kid. He saw Green Arrow and Diggle rekt the shit outta his daddy and so he started crying and then went and trained with Richard Dragon, killed him and stole his name.

>>90914229
HAS ANYONE EVER STOPPED TO CONSIDER THAT WHEN SHE CALLS HERSELF THAT SHE"S FUCKING LYING

LITERALLY EVERYONE HAS BEAT HER IN A FIGHT

>>90940954
Depends on the gadget. If Batman has anything like he does in certain portrayals like shock gloves, there would be nothing Shiva could do.

>>90941054

You haven't been paying attention to this thread? There has been examples given.

>>90917543
pretty narrow attitude

>>90922042
>Or Cass going into a building filled to the brim with criminals.
I didn't know i wanted this.
I wish there were more movies like The Raid

>>90941054
other people call her that too

hell a lot of people call her that right before beating her in a fight

>>90944412
Don't we all.

>>90944455
>shakycam, stunt double, cg filled movies are the norm
>movies like the raid are rare in NA and only happen in foreign countries. Usually with great camerawork, proper stunts and bare bones plot to hold it together so we can focus on fighting
the last thing we got remotely like The Raid is what John Whick?

>>90944721

Yep John "motherfucking" Wick movies and Mad Max: Fury Road are the only other exception so far in this day and age.

>>90944936
fury road had to much plot and not enough action

>>90938086
Hasn't Damian been beaten up by most of the Robins when he tried to attack them? Tim's the only one he really stands a consistent chance against.(Different anon)

>>90920558
>Bruce actually lost the 1v1 fight.

Not just lost, he got his shit pushed in by an amnesiac Val, who stole his belt for shits and giggles.

After Bruce bitched about Superman rating Val as a 15 and him as a 12.

Karate Kid made him look like a handicapped six year old purely on muscle memory.

>>90938086

If Tim Drake can beat Damien, he's not worth discussing. Damien has time to grow though.