So in regards to Slott's recent breakdown. Why does Marvel

>>90864527
>Slott's recent breakdown
Elaborate, please.

If they're pretending young Peter is what new readers expect they are flat out lying. The most popular portrayals among newfags would be the 00s movies when he was an adult. They want young Peter because that's what they grew up reading. But that part of it isn't unusual.

What I find odd though is that the 80s-90sfags haven't risen up in the company yet. DC is basically being run by one right now (Johns) and all the creators mention runs in that era that made an impression on them. What's holding up Marvel?

>>90864572
OMD 10th anniversary this year. Some axons here on /co/ and users on CBR have been theorizing that if they are to undo it then they'd do it this year. Slott caught wind of this and ranted on CBR.

Summed up, he said that

>OMD will not be undone.

>OMD is a good thing

>Only old fans want OMD undone.

>New fans grew up with post-OMD, so they must like un married Peter more.

>Slott wants new fans more than old fans

>People should be demanding Peter become a high schooler again instead

>Ditko intended Peter to be in high school. (Which is false)

>Because of that, having him graduate was a bad thing.

>>90864527
Because it used to be that starting from the beginning was an effectively laughable idea. You'd start reading with what was coming out NOW, and maybe luck into some reprints or old issues if they happened to be available.

This is how Slott grew up and came into comics- Reading what he could, when it came out. Trade paperback of comprehensive chronological runs weren't really a thing until the late 80s at the earliest, and even then, they weren't really truly comprehensive until pretty much the 00s. And even then stuff went out of print.

But then scans/pirating really took off in the Torrent era, and Comixology's "Steam, but for Comics" only came into being as a counter to that.

>>90864527
Pretty sure they're still going at it on cbr, I hope MJ would die already so all this omd whining would end.

>>90864721
>People should be demanding Peter become a high schooler again instead

>Ditko intended Peter to be in high school. (Which is false)

>Because of that, having him graduate was a bad thing.

Please tell me that fat fuck did not say that. Please tell me you're lying.

>>90864893
Essentially, yes. But the way he worded it made it sound like it was Marvel's stance as a whole.

>>90864527
They are stuck in their ivory tower with everyone too afraid to contradict the group consensus formed by the people on top who hated the marriage since 1987.

Those who try to change anything get crap jobs and are eventually fired. Most would rather screw up a character and introduce an OC to try to make a name for themselves before self publishing, hoping for a movie or TV show gig.

>>90864932
That is so disgusting it left a bad taste in my mouth.

>>90864883
Don't be a tard. MJ dying wouldn't fix Marvel's OMD fuck up.

>>90864721
>Ditko intended Peter to be in high school. (Which is false)
Pete was already in college by the time Ditko left.
Does he REALLY have that little respect to the old fans that he thought people would believe that?

>>90865005
Yeah, the only way to end this is to have MJ's version of Sins Past, and have her cuck Peter for the Hypno-Hustler

>>90864721
God, no wonder why he killed the 90's cartoon Spider-Man.

>>90865105
Plot twist: Mephisto saved Aunt May because she agreed to give him a blowjob. Taking the marriage was just a bonus.
Let's go full retard with the "all women in Peter Parker's life are sluts" shit.

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>>90865158
It was already going to turn out this way.

>>90865105
You do realize if you kill MJ, she'll become as popular as Gwen Stacy.

Also, I really hate how fans just have to always start at the beginning. Like, when I got into comics, I hardly knew a lot that was going on, but it made me excited to try and learn more. There was this awe of just figuring out everything bit by bit than starting at some fixed point and going onwards.

>>90864666
The industry is dying, of course less people would come in and make a rise in it.

>>90865158
Mephisto is Peter's real daddy.

>>90865392
Define dying I guess. Trades are where the growth is right now, though of course Marvel lags behind the rest in that department so maybe that is the explanation. Not a lack of new talent in the industry as a whole but it's not going to Marvel.

>only watched Spider-Man movies
>hey maybe I should read comics
>some anon tells me about OMD
Lmao I thought those two were married why the fuck would you give up your marriage to extend the life of your 150 year old aunt?

>>90865482
Did they tell you that his Aunt straight up told him to let her die and that she was at peace with her life ending?

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>>90865511
Are all comic writers hacks?

>>90865549
Nope, just the nostalgia fags who will call you a nostalgia fag for telling them to stop fucking with continuity and the new age progressive writers Marvel has been picking up as of late.

God, I can't wait til Pete graduates High School in the MCU so we never have to have High School Pete again.

>>90865011
>Slott

>Showing anyone respect.

Who do you think he is?

>>90865640
>Implying they wont go down the Miles route.

All is wrong in the world.

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>>90865702
Too bad they gave Ganke to Peter.

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>>90864721
>Ditko intended Peter to be in high school.

You know, I'm so sick of Peter being the "Teen Superhero" when we have so many more teen heroes. Hell, it's funny cause my cousin thought Spider-Man was the worst part of Civil War cause he was so damn annoying. Why do we need Peter to be this Avenger cock gobbler?

>>90864721
>>People should be demanding Peter become a high schooler again instead
>>Ditko intended Peter to be in high school. (Which is false)
>>Because of that, having him graduate was a bad thing.

Can Slott please just fucking die?!? How can you read the Ditko run and miss the point by this much?

>>90865884
Nostalgia fags. They ruined Spider-Man, then somehow turned it so that criticism of them is nostalgia fagging.

So wait, normalfags, the new audience Slott wants, bitch about how unrealistic it is superheroes dont grow old, amd wants to have the most popular hero a teen in high school forevet?

>>90865947
But shouldn't they be nostalgaing over the status quo of 90's Peter? Or Raimi Peter? As much as these writers deny it, people know Spider-Man from those outlets if they were newfags. Do they think the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon must be what brings them in?

>>90865999
Really makes you whack your noodle.

>>90866020
yes but Slott is lying because he's too afraid to just say "this is the status quo I prefer and feel more comfortable writing" like a grownup should

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>>Ditko intended Peter to be in high school.
I blamed Ultimate Spider-Man popularity.

>>90866020
You miss the point. The nostalgia fags are the ones who are running the company now, the ones that grew up with unmarried "hip and young" Spider-Man. And they're only hiring people who agree with them, (hence the shitty quality as of late). Bendis did Ultimate Spider-Man (which I didn't event think was all that good) and fans ate it up. It also starred a more hip and more young Spider-Man. Therefore, the golden Peter must be highschool.

>>90864721
To be fair, he didn't say Ditko. He said "creator", so he could be following the meme that Stan created Spider-Man.


But even then, Stan was the one who came up with the marriage idea.

>>90864527

I have no idea what the fuck people are talking about with this breakdown

It's so weird how /co/ stretches and distorts stuff instead of just saying they think dude makes shitty comics and dislike him bc of that

If people want Spider-Man in high school, why did Spidey tank then?

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>>90866158
Hey, Slott.

>>90866072
This. The idea of a highschool Spidey was but backstory fodder. Adult Peter was the status quo. The 90s show was basically nothing but an adult Peter, and the Raimi films left the highschool setting after the first 30 min.

>>90866020
You should see Joe on the Howard Stern show. He basically bitched about how every adaptation of Spider-Man has him single since that's what fans want. So that was his reasoning behind OMD

>>90864721
Slott really is if that one guy working at your LCS wound up working for Marvel

>>90866346
but Slott is actually extremely talented just a bad choice for an extended ongoing on the world's most popular and heavily criticized character
She-Hulk, Mighty Defenders, all of his DC work, Looney Toons stuff and even that Human Torch mini was gold
ASM has just been a complete bore I think its because there was no possible way for him to live up to expectations

>>90865456
>Marvel lags behind the rest in that department

half the reason for that is that they either can't or won't find a way to print quality books at non jewtheft prices. all of their collected editions are more expensive than their DC/Image/DH counterparts AND they use thin glossy shit quality paper.

>>90864527
>Why does Marvel believe that new readers are picking up books for the first time and starting on current runs?
Because they're in the spotlight thanks to the movies.
>Why are they so dead set on young Peter.
Because every single movie has been about young Peter, or started out that way.
>Can't they see the fans don't want this?
Yes, but they're not trying to appeal to fans, they're trying to appeal to casuals, normal people. Unfortunately for Marvel, old people and and middle-aged geeks are running the show, so they don't know what the casual audience actually wants. Somewhere along the line they got it into their heads that tumblr is the answer, not knowing that tumblr is representative of normal people. This lead to them diving headfirst into the diversity mentality and focusing on that, not realizing normal people don't give a fuck about diversity, only kids and manchildren do for different reasons.

tl;dr: They're trying to establish a new, bigger fanbase without knowing what appeals to them or putting in the time and effort to build it up. Honestly, they should just make a cartoon or comic where everyone is a teenager.

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>>90866404
>Slott is actually extremely talented

>>90865371
so she'd lose popularity?

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>>90866772
>Honestly, they should just make a cartoon or comic where everyone is a teenager.

They made a video game like that, though I think they're more college aged than high school

>>90866902
Ren & Stimpy is one of the most fun comics ever made
suck a dick

>>90865371
>she'll become as popular as Gwen Stacy.
Who is less popular? Seriously most people remember Gwen as the bitch Spider-man accidentally killed while MJ as his wife and true love. MJ is the Lois Lane of Peter Parker's Clark Kent.

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>>90867001
>Ren & Stimpy

>>90864527
>Why does Marvel believe that new readers are picking up books for the first time and starting on current runs?
This has been their way of thinking for 40 years.

>>90866404

Slott, I just want you to know that I hate you. Not as a writer, but as a person.

>>90866143
but Stan Lee made Spider-Man, the Human Torch and the X-men graduate high school practically at the same time in the 60s

>>90864893
Read what he actually wrote. Anon is purposefully making him look more unreasonable than it was.

>>90867324
>It’s far more likely that you’d see a line-wide reboot that reset Spider-Man to high school years (and on model with the creators’ original intent)

Seems pretty accurate to me. With the quotations it seems that Slott is trying to push the notion that Highschool should be main. And in the entire thing he seems to be bitching about how the writers want a Spider-Man that is more relatable to young people.

Just reboot and relaunch at Slott #1. Have him only writing backup stories in Annuals, that's what the fans want.

>>90867458
Look at Homecoming, that is what Marvel wants, he's not wrong.

>>90864527
Pandering to fans isn't exactly a good idea most of the time.

>>90867819
Worked for DC...

>>90864721
I don't even oppose high school Peter in principle (although now that there's Miles and a shit ton of other teenage heroes in 616 there's not much point) but implying that's the only right way to go is just dumb.

>>90868068

Yeah because they i guess... 'pandered' to the ppl that actually buy their books. Marvel doubled-down on diversity and social issues and have had a bit of a talent drain which isnt what people spending money on comics are looking for, thats red-flag shit.

>>90865371
NO! If they kill MJ, they'll reveal she gave birth to Osborne TRIPLETS just to one up Gwen! I do NOT put it past slott!

>>90866962

And I get a lot of mileage out of the silly storylines.

The fucking android game handles the characters better than Marvel.

>>90868068
DC also has half-competent editorial and writers, so they publish decent comics regardless of who they try to pander to.
Which is what matters. Slott or Bendis pandering to old fans is still Slott/Bendis.

Link to the actual rant?

>>90868146
Why did you put pander in quotation marks? Is it only pandering when it's not what you like?
Marvel's issue isn't forced social commentary/minorities, DC does that too, they just do it with a modicum of competence.

>>90868503
Pandering has negative connotations, while pandering to base is not necessarily bad? I dunno.

>>90864721
>no one at Marvel remembers why Spider-man became popular in the first place
this saddens me
the fact that not even marvel remembers spidey because that actually grew up, we saw from a highschool outcast to a full grown married man and everyone was enjoying the ride, new characters where added and the status quo changed in a natural way, Peter changes as a character in a very different than say someone like bats or supes in the 60's/70's
but ever since they tried to pull the breaks on character progression everything started going for the worst, ever since the fucking clone saga marvel got this fixation to have a spider-man in the old status qou wether it be Peter or Ben, then there where the stupid ass break ups or ''disapearances'' and while writers tried to work properly with it like JMS, its still because of this constant fuckery with character progression that has made spider-man so mediocre in the last 20 years, i look at the book now and it feel like im seeing some cape parody book from a independent comic

>>90868603
I think it still can be just as bad, if the base is dumb.
Fans think they want the character to have X or Y characteristics, but they really just want good books.

>>90868921
We at least want them to be recognizable and not have Marvel undo years of continuity to make him a manchild who's nearly thirty and hanging around college bars to pick up girls.

>>90868921
Yeah, but pandering to people who do not actually buy your books is dumber by far. Pandering to base might be retarded, but at least it translates into sales...

>>90867027
>SUfag
Figures.

Peter's best stories happened WAY after high school. I mean, all the stuff that happened in the 70's, 80's, and 90's are the definitive Spider-Man stories.

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Gee Slott, you sure had me fooled.

Reminder that this man thinks we're all brain dead.

>>90866143
Anon, Stan Lee had nothing to do with the marriage.

>>90868626
An issue with that is that the Lee/Ditko run can be a bit hard to get into for nowadays no-attention disrespectful teens (I say that in a Kelly way), what with the narration boxes, outdated dialogue quirks, ("mebbe" comes to mind), outdated clichés, so-so art and cheese overload.
I like it, but I doubt it's what a reader expects Spidey to be if they know him from modern adaptations.

So if they want new readers to experience Peter's growth, they "have to" restart it. Which is what Ultimate was but we know how it turned out.

>>90869102
>Stan Lee, who co-created Spider-Man and was writing the Spider-Man newspaper strip at the time, recounted:

>>I suggested [that Spider-Man and Mary Jane be married] to whoever was in charge, and they thought it was a good idea, too. Now, I wanted to find a way to have them get married in the comics books and the newspaper strip at the same time. There is no way I can explain to you how difficult that was, because the comics books are written two or three months ahead, [and] the newspaper strip is written a certain period of time ahead. To synchronize the two was almost impossible. Also, the Spider-Man strip had one storyline going on, and in the newspaper strip we had a totally different storyline going on, and in order to make them sort of come together so there'd be a marriage... well, it was the toughest thing creatively that I think I have ever done or the people at Marvel had done. [emphasis in original]

>>90868503

Because a company understanding what their paying customers are looking for isn't "pandering" its smart business sense, and its made better if in the case of comic books your creative teams can make it work in a good way.

ON THE OTHER HAND... you have actual pandering to try and reach out to specific groups and then compromise the integrity of your stories because of it, to a point that even decent creative teams can't make it work with all the editorial mandates.

tell me there isn't a fucking difference.

>>90869200
I'm aware of that quote, but it's from like 2011 - and there are far, far too many contradictory statements from other, younger folks at Marvel.

I mean, the wedding issue was in '87, right? So Stan was in LA doing...well, whatever he was doing at Marvel's TV studio. I guess writing the newspaper comic and just sort of being a cool wall decoration.

My understanding from what I've heard from various sources is that the marriage was extremely controversial even when it was pitched. It was only by a very slim margin that it even happened at all.

My guess is Stan got confused (at 88 or however old he was at the time, who can blame him?) and was trying to claim that he pitched the newspaper strip idea to go in tandem with the comic book idea. I somehow doubt Stan was hanging out at Marvel Animation HQ and got word to the NYC comic headquarters. That just isn't how things were going at Marvel in the late 80's.

>>90864721
>People should be demanding Peter become a high schooler again instead
>Ditko intended Peter to be in high school. (Which is false)
>Because of that, having him graduate was a bad thing.
Sad thing is, Marvel doesn't seem to get that making Peter a loser singleton without meaningful emotional connections only works up to a point. When he's a teenager, that's... sure, it's standard issue. When he's a grown man, it's kind of pathetic.

It's got to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to have him held back in high school over and over just to keep him there, without realizing it makes him look like an idiot.

>>90868973
Thing is a business like Marvel doesn't want a small but stable readerbase, they want a growing one.
And sometimes it works: it took Whor 2 years for it's sales to drop to Thor levels before she took the hammer.

Isn't Renew your vows selling like shit too?

>>90869441
>Isn't Renew your vows selling like shit too?

That's because it's A) Not canon, and most people don't buy books unless they're canon. B) It undermines the reason why the marriage between MJ and Peter was so good in the first place. (Her being the human side to Peter and constantly conflicted with his super hero antics.) and C) the plot is boring Saturday morning cartoon tier.

>>90869441
Then they should market to people who might buy their books, not to groups that were repeatedly proven not to.

>>90869441
it's an AU so it's automatically shit sales and then Conway really dropped the ball by telling the same story 3 times.

ASM's sales have been steady as the best single hero for Marvel since Slott took over and let's be real, ASM book just exists so Marvel can keep creating toys, movies, et cetera. they don't give a fuck about the book anymore.

in the end, for all his shit stories and shitting on characters, Slott will (eventually in 2050) give up ASM and Pete will be in the exact same place he was post OMD. Slott's run won't be remembered as anything more than 20+ years of stasis and for Marvel, that's good enough.

>>90869346
I'm not seeing it. Do you really think everyone who's ever bought a Spidey book has the exact same demands as you?
You ARE part of a specific group.

>>90869441
Whor dropped because they took the real Thor out of the book and put him in his own ongoing.

>>90869757
OMD is universally known as the worse cape book of all time.

>>90869845
Now now. There is a case to be made that Ultimatum holds that spot. That said, OMD is probably the most hated.

>>90869556
Fair enough, it's just not sending a message that it's good business sense to bring the marriage back.

>>90869560
Did you miss the part of my post about Whor?

>>90869702
I'm not defending Slott, it's just that I don't think "rebirthing" things is necessarily good, neither from an artistic nor business sense.

>>90869845
>>90869875
As bad as those are, Avengers: The Crossing has you beat.

>>90869845
It's not even part of the unholy Trinity.

>>90869441
Marvel thinks they're appealing to the casual audience, but the truth is they're appealing to another subset of nerds.

>>90869843
Her taking the hammer still boosted sales significantly.

>>90869886
>Did you miss the part of my post about Whor?
I didn't, I also did not miss Angela and "Bitches Don't Know About My Feminist Agenda"

>>90869957
Disney shilling her on "The View" boosted sales.

>>90869945
A part of nerds that don't read their books yet, and whom they want to grab. It's essentially the same thing regardless of how normie they are.

>>90869968
What does that have to do with anything?

>>90870061
Well? Could they have done that if they didn't shake things up?

>>90870108
One case does not a pattern make.

>>90869921
what stories are those?

OMD is probably the worst non Universe wide reset story for any comic book super hero.

What amazes me is that Marvel doesn't get how their MCU is forcing everything to age. Things that happen in the MCU make everything in the comics feel dated once it has been shown on film. Civil War? Not talked about anymore, outside the crappy CWII event cause all the hype was solely for the film. After Infinity Wars finally hits, everyone will be so sick of Thanos, which is kind of already the case.

The problem that writers don't get is that instead of blazing forward with new ideas, they piggy back the movies and shows. Like, would it surprise any of you if Iron Fist starts dating Colleen Wing and Luke Cage Misty Knight? Hell, Jessica Jones was reverted back to her show version. Even Secret Empire is starting to feel like an event manufactured by the MCU.

And the thing is, with Spider-Man, they probably will make him marry in the MCU. If they do a Spider-Man film every 2 years as Sony plans, we'll blow through a lot of material and Spidey will age up. High School will seem less appealing cause it would feel old after it happens in the films. MJ will eventually show up and they probably will have her marry Spider-Man. At that point, Marvel would have to get with the program.

>>90869191
Tbh I have difficulty reading any comic from before the mid-90s because they're just generally such slogs to get through. Even if the comic is good, the overabundance of narration drags it down so hard. I know this is the way things were done back then, but from a modern standpoint it's like if you want to describe everything that's happening on panel to the reader, just write a book. What's the point of the fucking art if you don't let it tell any of the story?

>>90870147
Not my claim, I said it could work, not that it always did. There's no real pattern to prove the other side either.

>>90864666
>What I find odd though is that the 80s-90sfags haven't risen up in the company yet. DC is basically being run by one right now (Johns) and all the creators mention runs in that era that made an impression on them. What's holding up Marvel?
Marvel was largely shit in those periods while DC had great moments in the 80s (TDKR, Watchmen, etc.) and 90s (Vertigo).

>>90870184
Trouble
Unfunnies
Don't remember the 3rd one

OMD being bad doesn't mean people want to cancel its consequences

>>90870402
Nemesis?

>>90870402
Mar-ville?

and Trouble isn't even that bad of a read

>>90870402
I think either Nemesis or Marville.
But the point is, that anon mentioned OMD being the worst CAPE comic, so other than Nemesis (kinda), the Trinity doesn't really apply.

>>90870187
>What amazes me is that Marvel doesn't get how their MCU is forcing everything to age.
Marvel being unable to see things from a long-term perspective? Say it ain't so.

>>90870468
Right, Mar-Ville

>>90870527
Trouble should count. Yeah there's no actual crime fighting but it's still set in their universe and features characters from Spidey.

>>90870141
Get on "The View?" Sure. They could have literally did any old trope that means shit to long time readers and gotten the same result with that kind of shilling. Disney owns ABC.

>>90864721
So what I'm getting from this is he hasn't read classic Spider-Man comics ever. He literally contradicted everything true. Pete graduated in issue 28, and by If This Be My Destiny he was already in college.

>>90870576
>but it's still set in their universe
It isn't though. Someone had the decency to nix the official connection to 616.

>>90870402
>OMD being bad doesn't mean people want to cancel its consequences

that i can agree with. i got over the marriage thing a long time ago but still get a bit sad when it's brought up.

what i can't get over is how fucking bad OMD and OMIT were. for such a crucial moment in your flagship superhero's history, on that retcons 20 years of continuity, to get this kind of insane, illogical, out of character drivel is downright insulting. Spider-Man deserved far better then what was shit out with OMD.

that's what separates it from a one-off horrible story like Trouble (which wasn't a super hero comic). OMD will forever be remembered as a pivot point in ASM and it's the worst single story ever belonging to a super hero.

>>90870187
They probably think Sony will fuck up and reboot again before that happens.

>>90870402
People may disagree over the marriage but I am pretty sure most people want to resolve the Mephisto deal part. Having him popping up once in a while and reminding us how much OMD sucks doesn't help.

>>90864721
TBF in Slott's meltdown he DID say the "creator" in question that wanted Peter to stick around in high school was Stan, not Ditko.

Everything else is 100% to the letter no less.

>>90870580
You really think if they went to the view to promote good ol Thor it would have boosted the sales similarly?

>>90870214
This is never as bad as casuals make ot out to be.
If you don't want to read words anon, give tv a try.

>>90870610
You're saying that like 616 is the only marvel universe with supers.
Are we supposed to assume that the Peter that will be born after Trouble will not be Spider-Man?

>>90867008
You'd be surprised how popular Gwen is with plebs.

>>90870610
seriously, plus Dodson's art is super fappable
there's way worse "superhero" comics out there

>>90870856
i am fairly certain most people would rather not hear about OMD ever again because it brings up topics like we see on CBR and then here.

the bottom line is, at best, readers are indifferent to the OUTCOME of OMD but still hostile to the story. at worst, we have the autists Slott is arguing with on CBR, who still cannot give it up 10 years later and in front of the plainest evidence possible. no good will ever be done by bringing up OMD. it's a story that divided a fan-base like none other has.

OMD is best left in the same drawer they put MJ's stillborn and Gwen's kids. a drawer marked, DO NOT OPEN UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE EVER.

>>90870942
But casuals are the point of this discussion. If they think it's so bad they don't want to read it, then they won't ever have young Peter. Their loss, you could say, but that's exactly the reason they keep making Pete young and single.

>>90870951
Yes.

>>90870901
You really think having someone else using the hammer is something that shocking to Thor fans? If Disney didn't shill this crap on ABC, it would have done normal Thor numbers or less.

>>90871030
Too bad they do open that drawer everytime they have a sales slump.

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>>90864527
I must thank "recent" Marvel for something.

Went out for lunch with the family today and my folks asked me 'how about them comics?' because with all the fluff pieces you get on the news and Warner deciding to invest majorly too after Marvel began printing money, they were under the impression comics are absolutely booming, the mags never sold as much as they do and that opportunities within the field are rampant.

I basically tried to give the Cliff's Notes of the pathetically low sales volumes, how it's only on comic shops, the works. Including the whole "in love with violence and political pandering, but swear words and nudity are way over the line".

They looked at me with that gaze that says "this is all awful, but we need a more concrete example".

"Do you guys know why Spider-Man isn't married anymore?"

"Why?"

"He made a deal with the devil."

Then their eyes lit up and they basically said they understood everything.

>>90871172
You know, I'd actually love to see what /co/'s reaction would've been if it existed back when Simonson started his run.

>>90871172
We're arguing in circles here. They were able to successfully shill it on the view because they made it Jane, they weren't trying to "shock" Thor readers, they were trying to reach new ones with a marketing ploy. And it worked.

>>90871030
OMD ramifications are much bigger than Gwen secretly having kids and MJ losing a child, like rewriting entire 20 years of canon. It isn't as easy to ignore, especially if you've been following the series before 2007,

>>90871261
Maybe he would have taken a cue from that old What If? and had her marry Odin.

>>90871030
>OMD is best left in the same drawer they put MJ's stillborn and Gwen's kids. a drawer marked, DO NOT OPEN UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE EVER.

That drawer is part of the problem though. The Original Sin book was supposed to be about Peter's kid, but Quesada (the fat autist he is) didn't want to do that because it aged the character, and to him aging Peter Parker is the worse thing you can do to the character. So then we got Goblin cucking.

Parker's dead stillborn /should/ be something that's brought up every now and then. He lost a child, probably one of the greatest losses of his life. And what does he bitch about instead? "MUH UNCLE BEN AND MUH GWEN!" Why? Because it ages the character and for some reason Marvel sees it as a bad thing.

I'm not saying have Peter grow into an old man and retire (because quite frankly, I can't see Peter as a guy who would just retire from being a hero) but at least give the character a chance to develop and flesh out like he use to.

>>90870757
But they can't reboot. They already tied it to the MCU!

>>90871495
>"No more heroes"

>"WHOA, HOUSE OF M!"

>"WHOA WE FIXED IT!"

>"WHOA UNIVERSE RESET!"

>>90871425
Seems like many of the most infamous Spider-man stories are a result of editorial not wanting him to age. Sins Past became worse because editorial didn't want Peter to have kids, Clone Saga was a result of trying to replace Peter with a single version of himself and well OMD speaks for itself.

>>90866158
Slott deserves to die.

>>90871383
they've addressed it once in the 10 years since and that story (OMIT) was almost just as bad.

there is no good story, no satisfying conclusion they can ever tell with it -- they know this and as such, they won't bring it up. Joe Kelly did his thing in a side book as a troll.

>>90871425
Sins Past*

>>90871626
The most interesting part is that if you read Sins Past and One More Day, you can tell that JMS didn't want to write it. The events leading up to OMD is basically just him explaining why having him sell his marriage would be a bad thing. But Quesada simply didn't give a shit what Straczynski wanted to write. The man is a fine a story teller, let him do his job, he clearly knew what he was doing before Quesada took a massive shit all over it.

>>90871495
They tied Tom Holland's Spiderman to the MCU. It doesn't mean they can't do a horrible reboot again on their own. It could be Spiderman: One More Day, the movie.

Hmm... I was just joking yet I still threw up in my mouth a little.

>>90871787
There's a rumor that the Venom solo will be set in the Raimi Universe. Maybe they'd go back to that. But I can't imagine Maguire would still be down for an action movie. Possible recast.

>>90871857
Eh. Maguire hasn't been doing anything noticeable for years now so I wouldn't be surprised if he was willing to go back to the role. That said, Raimi Venom sucked ass.

>>90865011
This Peter in highschool mentality goes all the way to Kevin Fiege. It's not just a Slott problem. Marvel has been pretty effective that even casual Normies think Peter is a highschool hero.

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>>90871932
I'd normally agree with you. But /these/ guys took the Raimi Venom and made a really badass fan film out of it. It's by the same people who did Dirty Laundry, give it a watch.

>https://vimeo.com/79697570

These people don't even know what they really believe, or even what they're doing.

Slott: "We need to keep Peter young and recognizable for normies."

In ASM he's spent recent years possessed by Doc Ock and then LARPing as Tony Stark.

These people are all full of shit and hung up on their retarded ideas. Just make good interesting comics with a deep sense of continuity and attention to detail, and this will intrigue normies to pick them up and try to care about them. It's why for decades complicated stuff like the X-titles and the Bat-family grew a dedicated audience. Because for a good long time it was clear that there was a lot of history that people cared about, and the stories exuded that care and attention to detail, making it clear that the past had value and therefore the present was worth paying attn to.

>>90872061
>Found footage Venom film.

Would have worked better with Carnage, but I'm sold.

>>90871224
Thanks anon. I've found a lot of people have no idea he made a deal with devil. The backlash couldve been greater if evrn casuals realized what just happened.


As a result it is my duty to educate every pleb out there that their favourite hero actually made a deal with the fucking devil.

wait, does /co/ not like his She-Hulk, Mighty Defenders or GLA?

sure, Spider-Man is shitty, but Spider-Man kinda always is

>>90871857
I'll be so mad if they bring back Topher Grace as Eddie. Seeing him this close to playing Spidey was enough of a heartache once.

>>90872349
His She-Hulk is well liked and some of his Mighty Avengers pages get posted in one page threads a bunch. However he's been on ASM so long and openly confrontational about his shitty stories that whatever good will he has built up has gone away

>>90872357
Hire the guy from Truth In Journalism. Looks enough like him, but is a good actor.

>>90872061

It baffles me how people want Peter to always stay in High School. That's like the Batman fans who only want Batman to work alone and just fight his rogue's gallery. If you take away the character development, the story doesn't matter anymore.

Instead you'll just have Peter always being this idiotic kid who keeps going "Oh wow" to every Avenger and fans giggle at every single thing he says. I don't care what people say, Spider-Man never got popular on his own, it's his supporting cast that made him become as popular as he did. And I'm worried when people just want him to be the "Immature goofy Avenger". We have too man of those.

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>>90872313
I can't see how did this NOT scorch earth to any potential newbies and newcomers.

Little Timmy is on a trip, sees Captain America: Civil War or whatever the fuck. He likes Spidey. Everyone tells him The Amazing movies are shit, so he watches Raimi's. He likes them.

He wants to get in the comics.

He'll go to his weird old uncles (us) to ask for a starting point.

He'll inevitably say "where's Mary Jane? Weren't they together?"

And his answer will always be "they aren't together anymore because Peter made a deal with the fucking devil".

>>90872490
Grace is a decent actor, just a terrible fit as Eddie.

>>90872554
>>90872313
Honestly, I'm really surprised that after all this time they've kept that quiet.

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>>90872061
Just hit me just how terrifying symbiotes actually are.

>>90865999
>bitch about how unrealistic it is superheroes dont grow old
That has never been normalfags.

>>90872441
I just think Spider-Man, like Batman or Superman, is probably the worst character to write because their fans are all autistic
no writer's best work is on the Big 3 ever besides maybe Byrne

>>90872554
>>90872659
Yeah it is weird that its being kept that quiet. Like in every "worst" comic ever blogpost or tumblr post you have your Reed or Hank hitting their wives or something but NOTHING about Spidey making a deal with the fucking devil.

Its like the people who truly hate it have collectively tried their best to not remember the bullshit that was OMD and the ones that do mention it I've always seen include the JUSTIFICATION of why it was done.

A deal with the fucking devil needs no justification and the excuse that MJ convinced Peter is utter bullshit as well.. In the end he was the guilty THAT MADE A DEAL WITH SATAN HIMSELF HOLY SHIT.

Anyways I told what happened in OMD o my younger brother the guy and has become a hardcore DC fag now. So all is right with the world. Marvel is too broken with their head so far up their collective fat asses for my tastes.

>>90872998
>Marvel is too broken with their head so far up their collective fat asses for my tastes.

It's sad too, because I fucking hate company war fags. I'd much rather read what I like from either of them and be done with it, I'm a fan of both their universes. But Marvel /forced/ me to be a company fag, because at least DC respects me as a customer and does their best to please customers like me.

>>90872998
Well remember how Newsarama got in trouble when they ran JMS' side of the OMD thing and then Quesada moved his column and Marvel exclusives to CBR?

I imagine it might be something like that.

>Tfw I'm sick of both companies
>it doesn't matter what happens it'll always return to status quo and they'll never progress

>>90873105
Practically this. Both sides have their bad shit. When DC was sperging out with New 52 it forced me to go back to Marvel. Now Marvel is sperging out and DC has its rebirth. Guess who I am going to lean towards?

Good quality shit means I buy more of your stuff but both companies go full retard every 5 years or so. Unless you count that brief moment with DC doing the stupid DC You bullshit and Marvel doing ANAD. I didn't buy either of their crap.

>>90866072
Ironically, Ult Spider-Man only became a hit BECAUSE of the marriage.

Ultimate Spider-Man launched around the same time Marvel brought MJ back only to re-exile her and JMS (granted, wisely in hindsight) indicated he was holding off bringing her back.

Ult Spider-Man as such was the ONLY book with MJ and Peter together, which made fans go ga-ga over it.

Without MJ, no one would give a shit about Ult Spider-Man and all of the flaws, which was glossed over until around the time of the Venom arc, would have been brought up immediately and doomed it to be treated like Ultimate X-Men was.

>>90870402

Top 3 seems so limited now, should really be a top 10.

>>90873177
Yeah, you can't ever stress enough how helplessly crooked comic "news" sites are, it's pathetic. Each and every interview about whatever event or upcoming storyline is lined with kiddy gloved questions and saying "kiddy gloved" is already way more threatening than what they amount to.

And again nevermind the fact you could see blatant shilling like most sites going to bat for OMIT as completely great and compelling when it was released. Fuck, the whole 'basically free shilling' extended along with whatever site was it having a "greatest Superman runs ever" article where they placed Grounded in saying "if no one can stop talking about this, they're doing something very right!" and the run wasn't even halfway through.

>>90871030
>OMD is best left in the same drawer they put MJ's stillborn and Gwen's kids. a drawer marked, DO NOT OPEN UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE EVER.

Except this is the sort of thing people will drag out and turn into some kind of forced meme 10 years from now. I'm pretty fucking sure they tried to sort of sweep the whole "Hank-hit-Janet" thing but then Wizard kept bringing it up in the 90's (usually as a joke), and Millar thought it would be great for Ultimates and Austen thought Pym was always like this. Hell, I can't even blame Austen for thinking that because there really were some stupid fans online that actually believed Pym was always a regular wife-beater because of Ultimates and second-hand info.

>>90873852
Its also the reason why we got Scott Lang as ant man in the MCU. There was still a portion of casuals adamant in seeing the movie thinking it glorifies a wife beater.

>>90873806
It's because those people want to become comic book writers/editors themselves, and since they lack actual talent they make up for it by sucking as many dicks as possible.

Does anyone know when Peter graduated High School? Were there even any important storylines during that time?

>>90873105
>tfw DC characters and lore don't grab me and Marvel is doing Marvel
Suffering.
And yeah I read stuff outside of the big 2 but still.

>>90874344
Aunt May ended up in the hospital during that time if I remember correctly.

Also, there was that one arc with Goblin and Crime Lord.


That's pretty much it.

>>90874374
Start with adaptations of things you like and work your way out from there. Follow creators you like too. That's usually how you do it.

Don't listen to the indie fags, they'll point you to some pretentious bullshit or slice of life.

>>90874344
If this be my destiny has him just start out in college, IIRC

>>90874426
I've read some good stuff from DC already, don't get me wrong, it just didn't grab me enough to make me a regular reader. I especially dislike the very concept of the Batfamily and all those legacy families which are pretty core to DC.
I usually enjoy Elseworlds of sorts fine though.

And I mostly meant Eurocomics rather than American indie.

>>90874344
I think his first time getting beaten by a villain was during highschool. Doc Ock if I remember right. Considering how much he jobs nowadays, it isn't all that special anymore.

>>90871224

You have no idea how often I've had this conversation and that same reaction or worse. All just random causals I would just start a convo while looking at comics and ask about what's going on in marvel. I've yet to meet any causal spiderman fan think it's a good idea or defend it.

>>90874344
He graduated in Amazing Spider-Man #28 (which introduced the Molten Man).

He met Gwen and Harry while in college.

The Master Planner story is probably the most famous arc of the Ditko run and that takes place while he's in college.

He gets unmasked by the Green Goblin and learns Goblin is Norman in the first Romita issue (which was also in college)

my Spider-Man is a recent college graduate trying to juggle repsonsiblities of fullfilling his academic and social potential but struggling with personel problms
that's the one I related to most when I was little
high school heroes weird me out, like they're kids and could actually get hurt

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>>90875015
Also, to keep something else in mind: If you cut-off the book at graduation (which as mentioned above was #28):

-You lose the Master Planner storyline
-Mary Jane would've just been part of a running gag (you don't see her face until #42)
-You lose Gwen and Harry (they didn't get introduced until #31)
-You lose Norman Osborn's name (You see Osborn in the club JJJ's in but he's not named; he isn't officially named until #37. And remember, Ditko DID NOT LEAVE OVER THE IDENTITY OF THE GOBLIN. By the time he introduced Norman's look, he and Lee weren't on speaking terms and therefore couldn't have discussed the story. Lee just did the dialogue by this point.)

This is probably why some incarnations need to cram in everything into his high school years. If the first 28 issues were made public domain tomorrow you wouldn't have access to Harry Osborn or Gwen Stacy or Black Cat or Venom or Hobgoblin, you'd have to rename Norman Osborn, you'd have to change Mary Jane's look and you'd generally be stuck with Betty Brant and Liz Allan as the main love interests. But at least you'd have most of Spider-Man's memorable villains.

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People don't want it because they're autistic and want to fix continuity. They want it because the natural endgame for the story of Peter and MJ is marriage.

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>>90875349
>you'd generally be stuck with Betty Brant

Not necessarily a bad thing.

Yeah, I know, she doesn't look like the character design they used in the cartoon, but that design is superior.

>>90875610
Funny thing is that while they're fixated on having Peter stuck in high school they decided to have Betty be at adult age in some incarnations (USM, Marvel Age/Adventures, Spectacular) and so usually skip or in Spectacular's case, sorta gloss over their relationship.

>>90872349
Yes, they're all mediocre at best.
>but Spider-Man kinda always is
Except, you know, for all the good runs.
>>90872934
Only worst character to write when you're a talentless faggot like Slott.

>>90875473
>natural endgame
You're kind of defeating your point here. Endgame happens at the end, and they have no intention of ending Spider-Man anytime soon.
That's why they don't allow characters to be durably happy: that's every character's endgame, and when you reach it there really aren't that many places to go that would maintain the type of stories you were telling.

>>90876128
Not Marvel's point though. Slott makes it very clear that they believe there are no stories to be told with someone who is married. This is also confirmed by Quasada who said on the Howard Stern show that marriage is boring.

>>90876242
Just because his marriage is mundane doesn't mean SPIDERMAN'S freaking superhero marriage is utter shit.

Fuck what about superman and lois or Reed and Sue? FUCK Quesada.

The day Marvel made their flagship character that sold more than batman and superman on merchandising make a deal with the devil is the day Marvel went morally and creatively bankrupt.

>>90876242
I'm not sure how you miss that this is exactly what I'm talking about.
Marriage = happiness, stability, the end of the hero's journey. It's hard for most writers to make it work. There's a reason that this policy is largely shared by DC.

>>90876415
Lois is dead, Reed and Sue aren't in any books right now.

I want a story set during Peter's college years.

>>90876499
Spider-Man Blue and TAS is all you get and you're gonna like it like a good little bitch.


I know I did.

>>90876494
You know its temporary right faggot? Also Reed and Sue have been a thing for 50 odd years before being shunted outside of the universe literally last year. So go fuck yourself.

>>90864527
>It seems to fall to logic with me that they'd pick up older runs that look more familiar
That's the dumbest thing I've ever read. None of my normie friends ever act like they'd read a back issue. They mention they might buy some new issues after watching an iron man flick though.

>>90876624
Bullshit, no one does that anymore.

No one watches a Batman movie and says "I'm gonna jump right into the comics!" They walk into a comic shop, say "I want some Batman" then the clerk recomends Year One and Killing Joke.

>>90876128

That a semantic word choice thing. The next major event that the relationship has been building to is the marriage and people wanna take that step. To say you can't do good stories with a married couple is an insane lack of imagination.

>>90876494
Lois isn't dead. She has been in Superwoman every issue. I twas just her body that got destroyed. And she's going to merge with the other Lois anyway who has been in books as well.

Dumb normie.

>>90876687

anyone who rec's killing joke to a batman noob is a fuckin idiot.

>>90877286
It's what always happens though.

>>90876687
Nobody walks into a comic shop unless they know why they're there faggot. i know this because i visit one twice a week.

while that may be true lets not act like reading a few classic trades parlays into reading ongoings. OP mentions "older runs" which I take to mean old runs on monthlies. I hear all the time people say they want to read comics. Then they realize there are only a handful of places to buy them. And if they "buy" them online for the same price it's really only renting them. So most of them say fuck it.

>>90876589
And look how often the "Reed doesn't pay enough attention to Sue" came up. Most writers don't know what the fuck to do with married couples. Hell in Hickman's run they barely interact for most of the book.

>>90876757
Any of those married to Superman?
No?
Point stands.

>>90876456
Thousands of TV shows, movies and books feature married couples with more than enough misery and drama. The reason writers like Quesada say marriage is boring is because they either never married or their marriage sucked.

>>90876687
I doubt anyone who wanted to get into comics would bother with LCS these days. Why wouldn't they shop online like literally everything else they buy.
I understand LCSs can provide the service of recommendation, but that doesn't beat convenience.

>>90877384
Yes the non-spirit Lois is indeed married to Superman. They have a son who is Superboy right now.

>>90877438
>Thousands of TV shows, movies and books feature married couples with more than enough misery and drama.
Right, but they don't have untalented, lazy writers at the helm, and often aren't hero's journeys.
I'm not saying it's impossible, just that it's hard, and that's enough for Marvel to say "fuck that".

>>90877461
I thought they were doing the single father schtick? My bad.

>>90877521
The main point of all this is to merge the two sets so you get the family stuff and also the current continuity

I would read single dad Supes though, kind of neat

>>90877384
They interacted plenty? wtf are you on about. Only the beginning arc had them not interact much due tot he council of reeds and that shit was a plot point.

Marriage doesn't mean they need to spend every fucking waking moment with each other. Thats what you and marvel writers usually get wrong.

>>90864721
Wait, from what I recalled in the last thread he just said (a lot of times) there was no way Marvel would be persuaded to bring back the marriage? And that he even pitched Renew Your Vows?

>>90864666
>What I find odd though is that the 80s-90sfags haven't risen up in the company yet. DC is basically being run by one right now (Johns) and all the creators mention runs in that era that made an impression on them. What's holding up Marvel?
Even then, aren't they the same who came up with Nu52 because readers lol never asked for it?

>>90877952
She also spends a lot a time negociating shit for Namor.

>>90878451
One arc out of the many Hickman did lmao. Did you even read his FF or did you just read Three?

>>90864666
Funny thing: Robert Kirkman was an 80's Spidey fanboy and wanted to write Amazing or Ultimate but Marvel wouldn't let him

>>90864666
Satan trips of truths.

>>90869921
Unholy Trinity isn't really capes books tho.

>>90875824
IIRC that was something that kept coming up in the letters page, that Betty seemed so much older than Pete because she was a working girl rather than a student that their relationship was weird. That's probably why Betty (and Liz) were pushed into the background in the first place. That and to make way for Gwen & MJ.

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>>90878327
>Even then, aren't they the same who came up with Nu52 because readers lol never asked for it?

I don't think Diane Nelson grew up on comics.

>>90873402
okay top (worst) 10 mainstream/high profile books we'll leave out indie garbage and Golden and Silver Age dreck since that would make up the top 10000.

>Unholy Trinity
1) Marville
2) Unfunnies
3) Trouble
no debate 3 worst books ever
4) Amazons Attack
5) Ultimatum/Ultimates 3
6) OMD/OMIT
7) Sins Past
8) Superman Grounded
9) The Draco (X-Men)
10) Punisher volume 3 (the one where he becomes an angel)

Dishonorable mentions Avengers Arena, DOX/IVX, AVX, The Last Will and Testament of Charles Xavier

Looks good? I'm open to suggestions.

>>90882455
what idiot loaned someone their copy of AC#1, that shit should be in a vault somewhere.

>>90882565
Notice how Cavill is carefully keeping both hands on it in case she drops it.

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>>90882534
Good, but it still needs Nemesis. "her womb has been rigged to collapse" and all that.

>4) Amazons Attack
More people should hate this comic. I cannot fathom how Gail Simone of all people thought turning the Amazons into child murderers (and then trying to pull the moral equivalency card because George Bush) was a good idea.

>>90882914
yeah going over it again I think I can make space for Batman/Spawn, any Wolverine book with Romulus and She Lies with Angels, I should probably just group Chuck Austin's X-Men into one big group.

>>90882950
>yeah going over it again I think I can make space for Batman/Spawn

I don't know, if it were the 90's I would've been tempted to include the Batman/Spawn comics. But I think there's been a lot of terrible comics since then that I wouldn't even qualify it.

>>90882534
Bendis new x-men run and the xmen/gotg crossover is much worse than anything chuck austen wrote.
By a huge margin

>>90882455
Is that Jim Lee? He looks like a midget movie Shang Tsung.

>>90882534
>no Civil War
>no Identity Crisis
Step it up, senpai. At the very least for the width of damage to superhero comics as a whole.

>>90866962

>The Winter Soldier who fought in WW2, and off and on during the entirety of the thirty year cold war, is in Superhero Collage?

>>90883627
*Everyone* is in Superhero College. IIRC it's due to Loki shenanigans.

>>90882914
Simone wasn't responsible for the shitty ness of amazons attack? It was editorial.

>>90866962
>those guys openly hailing Hydra

>>90877384
Anybody saying "reed doesn'y pay enough attention to sue" has never been married clearly. And not that I have but if you look at most married couples they don't spend a large amount of time together. They do that at home more than they like already.

>>90885608
This is the same group that thinks marriage is end game and boring.

>>90886303
To be fair to them, most media acts as if weddings are a big deal. years and years of kicking the can down the road leading to years of engagement leading to massive wedding specials leading to eventual fallout/divorce/separation less than a year later.

it's like they don't want to write "He wakes up, kisses the woman he lives with on the cheek, and heads to work."

Not everyone cheats. Not everyone leaves. Many people just wallow in acceptance of the norm and never change. Why does every couple have to break up just because some new writer's parents were divorced?

>>90869892

That's seriously where you set the bar for "worst ever"? Modern Marvel must be beyond your comprehension. All of those comics, however much you hate what they did with the characters, have a basic level of craftsmanship that is lacking totally in modern Marvel books that exist more to push agendas than to entertain.

>>90872554
>>90872998
im suprised Ghost rider hasnt scoffed at him for that, the guy that really knows how much of a dick Mephisto is

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>Peter and MJ are still happily married in the newspaper strip
based Stan

>>90883344
>Thinking Civil War or Identity Crisis is anywhere close to top 10 worse.

They're bad, but not /that/ bad.

>>90871495
Is that a challenge, Anon?
We've got Captain America, kid Spider-Man and the Punisher somewhere around the MCU, add Bendis and Sony's bitching and you might get Miles Morales.

>>90875824
They want to eat their cake and have it too, anon.

Mary Jane Variant month in june.

>>90887622
Because Johnny also fell for the meme.

>>90888236
Long standing character assassination. Identity Crisis brought grimderpery into DC spotlight. It was so bad people decided to quit DC during the production.

Civil War not only featured character assassination of pretty much everyone, it pushed hard trends like ultimate style "grim n' gritty realism", hero vs hero events, politics politics politics, and, never forget, Peter revealing his identity WHICH led to OMD.

>>90890140
>twisting the knife
I definitely can see that happening in CURRENT YEAR Marvel.

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>>90890345

>>90890503
oh wow haha

>>90890503
Something's up.

>>90865947
What's there to nostalgia over? Peter, for most of his existence, was a college student, post-grad or generally a professional young adult. Even the '90s cartoon had the post-grad late '70s/early '80s status quo.

>>90890345
I'd rather put Civil War II on the Top 10 Worst list before Civil War (Prior to CW2 I would've been okay with putting Civil War on it, but CW2 was so fucking awful it made CW look good)

>>90890345
>It was so bad people decided to quit DC during the production.
I'd like to hear more about that.

>>90883344
>>90890345
>>90890345
most damaging books and worst stories are two different things >>90882534 these are simply the worst comic book stories ever.

top 10 most damaging comic who had a negative impact on the industry ever

0*) Seduction of the Innocent - not a comic, but killed every comic genre but cape for 40 years
1) Deathmate - singlehandely popped the comic book market bubble with it's massive delay
2) Ultimate Spider-Man - popularized long draw out stories written for trade, eliminating done in one stories raising the cost barrier to get in to comics
3) X-Factor (1986) - the first major nostalgia driven retcon and revival, opening the door for characters to never grow up or die
4) Civil War - popularized the annual linewide summer blockbuster event
5) X-Tinction Agenda, Spider-Man (1990) - artists effectively wrestle creative control away from writers leading to the dark age of comics
6) Death of Superman - jumpstarted the trend of temporally replacing heroes with mostly failed copies.
7) Flashpoint/New52 - not terrible stories but the reboot wasn't thought out at all, leading to a wonky mish mash continuity which no one but diehard N52 fans have firmly embraced

those are the major ones everything else is character specific but establishes a prescient it could happen to another book.

8) House of M, effectively ruined the X-Men for over a decade to deal with the fall out, the result of kneejerk reaction to lack editorial oversight in Morrison's run.
9) One More Day, basically X-Factor's retcon to reestablish old status quo but done in the laziest stupidest way possible with no regard for the readers and characters.

10) Identity Crisis - an overly grim book that needlessly dirtied up the silver age, and mindwipe side story led to an era of bad comics

>>90882534
What's Trouble at #3? Haven't heard of it.

>>90891466
>7) Flashpoint/New52 - not terrible stories but the reboot wasn't thought out at all, leading to a wonky mish mash continuity which no one but diehard N52 fans have firmly embraced

This I feel like is pretty much exactly what happened with COIE, so the real sin is not learning from those past mistakes.

>10) Identity Crisis - an overly grim book that needlessly dirtied up the silver age, and mindwipe side story led to an era of bad comics

This seems too low considering it directly led to your #7

>>90891467
Aunt May was a smoking hot redhead (nice) who slept around quite a lot and cucked Ben with his brother Richard (not so nice) leading in her getting pregnant and living with some trucker type she was scared to death of while she couldn't decide what to do with the baby, who as you likely can guess, is actually Peter, which results in her giving the baby to Mary Parker so she could pretend the baby is hers and Richard's.

>>90891467
comic book version of Porkys staring Aunt May and Uncle Ben.

>>90891629
>>90891631
What the actual fuck? You can't possibly be serious. That sounds even worse than OMD.

>>90891682
Mark Millar who wrote it said he thought it was the worst thing he'd ever written and implied he wrote it as a favor to either Joe Quesada or Bill Jemas who pitched the idea.

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>>90891466
>0*) Seduction of the Innocent - not a comic, but killed every comic genre but cape for 40 years
>this meme again

You can't blame Wertham or his book for the CCA, it was the publishers who made it, publishers who enforced it, and thus the publishers who killed the Crime and Horror Genre in America.

>>90891682
'fraid we are. Google it if you doubt it.

Marvel hyped it as "Spider-Man's TRUE ORIGIN" for a while, so when they saw the backlash they quickly backed down from it.

To try to pretend there's wiggle room that it's not May or Mary or Ben or Richard Parker the couples don't have their names said in the mini.

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>>90891712
people were burning comic books in the street, what choice did the industry have.

>>90882534

OMD should be higher, given that a decade later people are STILL upset about it.
Meanwhile things like Amazons Attack and Trouble, while fucking awful, have largely been forgotten both in universe and out.

>>90891708
>>90891717
Jesus, how did I never hear of this before? Did I shift to another universe? This sounds worse than OMD and Maximum Carnage combined.

>>90891835

Maximum Carnage was at least fun in it's awfulness.

>>90891835
It wasn't published as part of the mainline comics (Epic imprint), so that probably helps it be this obscure.

But yes, for a brief while Spider-Man could have gotten its own Wolverine Origins but somehow was spared such an awful fate.

I'm just gonna say that I just got into reading and collecting comics this year after 15 years of not doing so.

I love all the new characters and don't give a fuck about the old way of comics. Everything feels a lot more fun and colorful nowadays and I will never underatand why all the old readers feel like every character has to be this amazingly complex entity that can never have its story changed.

That being said, I really enjoy the new spiderman run. I also don't understand why so many virgins nearly exploded at the superior doc oct.

>>90891835
It came and went very fast. Marvel was pumping out a lot of stuff in the 00's and hyping them up, like JMS' Spider-Man, Morrison's X-Men, and the Ultimate line.

Trouble was them thinking they could do a line of books that would appeal to female readers and then since the book got such a bad reception at the start (not just over the possible implication that Aunt May is Peter's actual mom) they quietly slipped it under the table and never talked about it again, except to reprint it again in a hardcover at one point.

>>90891783
They had the choice to not use the hysteria to wipe out their competition.

>>90891835
As far as we're here, though

>As with Origin, Jemas said that Marvel wanted to tell this part of the early-early Spider-Man story before the movies could in any version. "I hope that Marvel readers will be proud to call Trouble the origin of Spider-Man," Jemas said.

>"The story is called Trouble, the lead characters are Ben and Richard, two teenage boys and Mary and May, two teenage girls. This sounds like it's gonna turn into the origin of Peter Parker. Marvel is taking the book very seriously - Mark Millar, Terry Dodson, and Axel Alonso are here.

>"We also are making this the number one book from Epic, which is very close to our plans for the future - to get an Epic [line] expoding, and we think this is a wonderful way to start. In the beginning, over a year ago, this project was called Parents. At its inception, this was intended to be the story of Parker's conception. But the focus goes from being on the baby to be, to four teenagers who are living the lives of four teenegers. Now the story [revovles] around May and Mary, who make enormous sacrifices in order to do what they need to do. We shifted the name of the book to reflect that.

https://web.archive.org/web/20061123003453/http://www.newsarama.com/000aaaTrouble.htm

>>90882534

Punisher volume 3 wasn't BAD though.
it was just a weird and out of place decision for the character

shit even stuff like OMD, Sins Past and Superman Grounded aren't really bad books, they're just poor decisions of things to do with the characters.

>>90891904
People say things like this, and then they inevitably end up being like those old readers they take shots at.

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>>90891894
also the covers all looked like this which helped with the disconnect from mainline Marvel.

>>90891983

I feel so bad for those two models.

>>90891904

Oh hi Dan.

>>90891974
How?

Can you not comprehend that different writer's have different takes on characters? If every writer qrote the same stories over and over comics would have been dead a long time ago.

>>90892104
Hi loser

>>90891962
That Jemas, he's a wild and crazy guy I miss him.

>>90891904
This was the attitude I had until OMD was published. It's like Marvel editorial revealed its true face to me.

It will happen to you as well.

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Damn /co/ your fast.

>>90890813
Civil War 2 was a huge trainwreck, but not a whole lot of consequences in-universe, just killed lots of sales.

I also definitely forgot to mention Original Sin. The idea behind it alone earns a honorable mention.

>>90891466
>most damaging books and worst stories are two different things
Considering all the retard pill characterizations and all the build up and the incredibly anticlimatic ending, no to mention shitty, Civil War STILL qualifies.

>top 10 most damaging comic who had a negative impact on the industry ever

>2) Ultimate Spider-Man - popularized long draw out stories written for trade, eliminating done in one stories raising the cost barrier to get in to comics
Hm that was before bendis infected the main continuity, right?
>3) X-Factor (1986) - the first major nostalgia driven retcon and revival, opening the door for characters to never grow up or die
Will have to disagree on this being damaging.

>4) Civil War - popularized the annual linewide summer blockbuster event

>6) Death of Superman - jumpstarted the trend of temporally replacing heroes with mostly failed copies.

7) Flashpoint/New52 - the reboot wasn't thought out at all, leading to a wonky mish mash continuity which no one but diehard N52 fans have firmly embraced

Can't argue there at all.

>5) X-Tinction Agenda, Spider-Man (1990) - artists effectively wrestle creative control away from writers leading to the dark age of comics
I don't remember X-Tinction Agenda being that bad. Also wondering how much pull poor Jon Bogdanove had there.

>8) House of M, effectively ruined the X-Men for over a decade to deal with the fall out, the result of kneejerk reaction to lack editorial oversight in Morrison's run.
Eh, at least it got rid of some of morrison's dirt. I was gonna bring up morrison's run earlier, but figured somehow it's more polarizing than the ones I had mentioned. Also like you said, too character specific but not "deal with the devil" levels.

>>90891466
(continuing)
Also, Watchmen should get at least a honorable mention, for comics as a whole. And if morre had stuck with his original idea, he would have completely ruined a bunch of existing characters.

>>90891826
>Amazons Attack
Isn't it only because reboots*?

>>90891904
Eh 5/10

>>90891963
Superman Grounded, I followed, and it was an awful read, man. No logic going on.

>>90892412
It's like a baby between Mephisto, Quesada, and either MODOK or Sugar Man.

>>90892450
>Civil War 2 was a huge trainwreck, but not a whole lot of consequences in-universe, just killed lots of sales.

As a singular work, CW2 is even more poorly written, even if it didn't have a lot of consequences in-universe. It took five issues to get to the "war", for starters. If we were to put something on a list for most-damaging then yeah, I'd definitely put the first Civil War on there. But as much as I hated the first Civil War, I can't put it on a "worst list" ahead of its sequel. The sequel was terrible on a craft level.

>>90892169
Dan, that's not very nice. You better take it back before the heart attack makes sure you can't.

>>90892138
>Can you not comprehend that different writer's have different takes on characters?

There's a difference between doing different takes on characters and blindly making drastic changes in a short time when most of the character is already established. The early Batman with a gun stuff was done before they got a grip on his character. If they suddenly started having Batman murder people with guns now without explanation or reboots, then it wouldn't make sense. Even the Bronze Age Batman that people point to as darkening Batman still had some Silver Age roots (seriously, go back and read the non-O'Neil, Englehart stuff). And the darker Batman of the late 80's and early 90's was still an organic transformation from Bronze Age Batman.

You also shouldn't be using "but writers have different taaaaakes maaaaan" as an excuse. It sounds more like it's an excuse used to shield against sub-mediocre comics.

>If every writer qrote the same stories over and over comics would have been dead a long time ago.

Tell that to Marvel who thinks retelling the same Parker Luck story over and over is a good thing, then.

>>90892644
>Isn't it only because reboots*?

Yes, and that's why OMD is worse.

When people talk about "Worst comic" they always look at them as a stand alone story in a world of interconnected ongoing stories.
In that regard AA is worse. But OMD blows it out of the water in the legacy it left behind.

Multiple times a year for a decade now we're constantly reminded of OMD being a thing.
>MJ constantly being teased as getting back with Peter and then ripping it away.
>MJ constantly showing up in AU material as Peter's love interest, wife or otherwise.
>Slott's bi-annual OMD rants (This is not the first time)
>Merch featuring MJ doing things
OMD is worse because Marvel won't let us forget that it's shit, and they won't undo it.
OMD is like having a split lip. It hurts like a bitch at first, then you forget about it, and then once you're over it and something makes you smile, the mostly closed woun reminds you it still exists, and rips right back open and goes right back to hurting.

The most lasting effect of Amazon's attack were the memes it generated.

>>90893273
OMD is bad not because of what came after it (otherwise we'd have people trying to put Watchmen or DKR on the list based on how many subpar writers tried to imitate them), it's bad because even if you look at it by itself, it's a story where they basically went against Peter's whole character, where the ending showing how things got rolled back represents the worst aspects of the Quesada and Alonso eras of Marvel.

>>90892138
>If every writer qrote the same stories over and over comics would have been dead a long time ago.
How so? They were still going last time I've checked, Marvel just finished their semi-yearly "heroes vs. heroes" event.

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>>90892412
I like this one better.

>>90870402
I like how all of the Trinity is connected:
Unfunnies - Written by Millar
Trouble - Written by Millar, idea by Jemas
Marville - Written by Jemas

>>90868626
Isn't this one of the things that separated Marvel and DC all those years ago?

DC was more superheroes who had a vague backstory thrown on and largely stayed static. Marvel had characters with vague superheroness thrown on and changed as people.

Bruce Wayne/Batman has been largely the same person all these years, where, say, Stark had ups and downs that changed the character. Stark wasn't introduced as some ex-drunk with a past full of fuckups, we watched him become a stupid drunk and make those fuck ups.

Meh, I dunno. I think I'm just old.

>>90890345
>Because Johnny also fell for the meme.
he was trying to save his stepdad who had cancer
Peter tried to save his 100 year old aunt who could die any day now

>>90895821
Well, Stark started out as a fuck up. Stan Lee apparently made a bet that he could get people to like a playboy character or something.

Also, DC used to be the one with all the legacies. That's one reason I always preferred Marvel... funny how that went.

>>90890874
Sorry, forgot to answer. There's some article where some woman mentions her time working at DC. When someone mentioned "the rape pages are in!" and the staff working on the story looked so happy about it, she realized that was not the kinda shit she signed up for and dropped out.

...Well, that was more or less how I remembered it, anyway. The original blog doesn't open for me, but here's some retellings.
https://creativedestruction.wordpress.com/2006/12/04/sexism-among-comic-book-geeks-the-rape-pages-are-in/
http://www.hoodedutilitarian.com/2015/03/linke-on-valerie-dorazio-and-goodbye-to-comics/

>>90891983
Those covers look very 90s for something that came out in the mid-00s.

And very lesbian for what's apparently a comic about straight romances.

>>90893273
That's a good point. Imagine if Marvel had been endlessly putting out Peter/Gwen images and merchandise in the 80s and 90s when Peter and MJ got married.

>>90897092
>one rando drops from DC because of it
Yeah I was expecting something more grandiose, don't get me wrong.

>>90897483
Actually looks like she had more reasons, but the description she gave for the thought process tells a lot about the jumblefuck it was.

Must be really disheartening trying to get into the superhero comic books business and bump into that kinda shit.

>>90897424
>Those covers look very 90s for something that came out in the mid-00s.
They look VERY early 90s. That's actually the one good thing about that mini.

>>90897585
IC was a complete trainwreck but word of mouth was wanking it something extreme at the time, don't be mistaken.

IIRC the fact Meltzer was a big shot writer from the outside probably assured everyone "he knows what he's doing" too, odds are.

As a matter of fact, I'm positive you can blame Sins Past on it. Why? Sins Past came out the same year as IC did and Quesada was on record just telling JMS to deliberately "turn something upside down", and he came up with the Peter-Gwen spawn idea.

How can you not do one better on DC if not by having her getting fucked by Green Goblin?

Really it's amazing how many good things JMS' run did (yeah the totem shit was stupid but it had good character stuff). Remember when one writer (I think it was Leob) brought back Aunt May (with a genetically altered actress TOTALLY NOT A CLONE) because "something was missing without her". Then she goes onto do fucking nothing for the entire run. Then JMS had the secret revealed to her and she became a genuinely great supporting character.

In fact when she came back they also killed off MJ (in another attempt to make Peter "young") but that didn't stick. Hell the entire Clone Saga was an attempt to do that too.

In fact to extend a metaphor the Marvel staff had some perfectly nice oranges, but they wanted to turn them into apples, so they kept trying and trying and it turned into a fucking disaster. Then JMS comes along and decides "hey, how about we make orange juice instead"? So he makes it and it's not to everyone's taste but it uses the ingredients in good ways. Then someone comes along and tries to take the orange out of the juice and shove apple in there making a bad tasting mess.

>>90882534
>8) Superman Grounded
This isn't nearly offensive enough for the list.
>9) The Draco (X-Men)
I've literally never heard of this one.

>>90898145
>9) The Draco (X-Men)
>I've literally never heard of this one.
"Nightcrawler's dad is actually a demon who's actually a mutant sent to another dimension ages ago and other stupid tales"

>>90898195
Ah, I've heard of that, but didn't know the name. That's dumb but I'm pretty sure there's been plenty worse X-Men stories in recent years.

>>90898222
I'm sure there was more outrageous stuff, I didn't read the whole thing.
But yeah, Inhumans vs X-Men's final issue and a multiple year bendis run should be more than enough to match it.

austen's xmen stuff was big and dumb but it seems to me its only real impact was letting juggernaut be a good guy unless I missed something

>>90897930
Not Loeb, it was Harras and Mackie IIRC

>>90898470
Back then they killed off some of Generation X too, no?

>>90898562
Oh yes, well it was something stupid like that.

>>90898588
oh yeah, rip
have any of them come back yet?

>Comments about Austen's X-Men not seeming as bad compared to what they've done to the X-Men in recent years
This makes me wonder if the first issues of Marville, before Jemas went full retard with the time-travel, the poorly done pseudo-philosophy and all-narration all day erry day, when it as just one retarded non-sequitur joke after another, would actually be considered mildly funny by today's standards.
Like Family Guy.

>>90899013
austen's x-men run is still terrible

>>90898884
I think so, most seem to be kicking around . Not sure about Angelo, but at least Chamber, Husk, Jubblies and Monet are around if I recall.

>>90895109
Now what happens when Millar and Jemas combines into Millmas

>>90898562
>>90898624
No; it was Byrne who brought back Aunt May. He was the one who wrote The Final Chapter (which I think Aunt May returned in)

>>90899733
I'm fairly sure in Life of Reilly Glenn Greenberg said it came from Harras (they do go at length with how Harras contradicted his own continuity heavily with Osborn saying he 'played no part' in Aunt May's death in the Osborn Journal)

>>90899670
This

>>90899670
>>90902352
What if instead they combine into Jemar, and edgy muslim/latino terrorist?

>>90902600
Does he lick goats.

>>90902707
If Jemas licks goats, two at once I suppose.

>>90899013
I think it is because some people grew up with it, and they have some nostalgia for it, same as the Spider-Man clone saga.

God that fucking romeo and juliet story was so fucking stupid.

>>90870883
I recall reading that Stan wanted to make him grow up and that Ditko wasn't into the idea because he thought a grown adult behaving in some of the ways Peter wouldn't look right

> MJ's stillborn and Gwen's kids. a drawer marked, DO NOT OPEN UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE EVER.

Fuck Gwen's Goblin babies I don't care if they ever come back but also fuck ignoring MJ's and Peter's baby, that added a tragedy to Peter that wasn't "Uncle Ben and Gwen!" and it was rarely brought up too.

Plus not ignoring it gave us Spider-Girl.

>>90871425
>Parker's dead stillborn /should/ be something that's brought up every now and then. He lost a child, probably one of the greatest losses of his life. And what does he bitch about instead? "MUH UNCLE BEN AND MUH GWEN!" Why?

I hated that Marvel Knights story that brought Aunt May back from the dead especially since it made it seem like Peter's daughter was alive and even Peter was running to were his daughter was possibly being held because he wanted her back.

But then he gets there and it's Aunt May and all Peter can do is scream because he wanted his daughter and instead it was his aunt who he thought was dead. I hated this story because it fucking played with my feelings but I found Peter's reaction to be realistic especially since he buried his aunt and he already made his peace with her death and it was realistic that he would have rather had her back than Aunt May.

But yeah Aunt May coming back and then the whole OMD shit to keep May alive, fuuuuck it has made me hate Aunt May a little not to mention it reeks of manchild.

I also hate how Ben was back and he didn't ask about Peter's kid, obviously this is fat Slott ignoring that but it just feels fucking weird especially since Ben Reilly's last words were about Peter's kid, maybe PAD will touch the subject? he loves dead baby drama.

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>>90873852
The Hank hitting Jan was a meme within comics that no one let go even shortly after it happened.

In the 80's you had a panel of a kid hitting Jan the same way Hank did, then you had a female character hitting Hank in that same pose, then you had Ultron hitting Jocasta the same way, then Bendis had the Hulked out Shulk hit Jan the same way in Avengers Disassembled (seriously that Hank hitting Jan panel got homaged a lot), then Ultimates happened, etc... etc...

Hell Dan Slott brought it up in Mighty Avengers a bunch of times and when he had Deadpool and Spidey do a Yo Mama contest in ASM (shortly before he did the Kraven family event)

>>90872313
>>90872659
If it happened today it would have at least been Hydra Cap bad, I mean even my Grandma knew about that one.

>>90866072
Ultimate universe was the worst fucking thing to happen to Marvel

>>90874344
In ASM #28 and most likely still in the 60's

Honestly Peter spent most of his Spidey career in college and as an adult, heck he was married longer than he was in high school.

I think USM skewed a lot of people's perspective of Peter.

I mean yeah Peter was conceived as a teen hero who wasn't a sidekick then again Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman were conceived to be things they aren't anymore and DC revisits them from time to time (particularly with Morrison) but the characters don't go back to that.

Plus there are better examples of teen heroes than Spidey nowadays.

>>90870214
So you're a retard who only likes picture books? Gotcha

>>90891962
>Axel Alonso
They need to get rid of the Quesada incestous gang, hopefully next EiC is chosen by Disney and pulled from DC or any other comic company and for that guy to start bringing in good old and new talent and kicking out people like Bendis and Slott.

>>90905221
Quesada said MJ never got pregnant because of the OMD retcon.

Wanting Peter back in High School is as bad as wanting pre-Claremont X-Men but seeing how they brought the teenage O5 it just goes to show how shit Marvel is right now.

>>90874374
I know that feeling, bro