Are you ready for Astonishing X-Men by Charles "Continuity

>>90645242
The peanut man strikes again

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>>90645242
>Some longtime X-fans may dislike that, but I'll take the hit.

Nobody is told more often to drink piss and like it than X-Men fans.

His statements are vague but given all recent Marvel projects it is reasonable to expect shit on a platter.

All in their eternal hunt for that mythical beast of "New consumers who weren't into comics before but will totally buy comics now and compensate for all the longtime consumers we disregarded."

Continuity has been very important in certain areas of the Marvel U in recent years (Soule's precious Inhumans have been very tightly scripted over a number of series and volumes, for example). X-books, not so much. I reread Death of Wolverine today and Soule seemed not to have realized that Jeph Loeb had written a whole storyline where Logan killed Sabretooth. Now, that story did suck, so maybe he's saying he's going to ignore what he thinks isn't good. Fair enough. However, Remender's Cap was good and the dude ignored it. Morrison, Whedon and Gillen's runs focusing on Cyclops were terrific, and he ignored those stories. Just listen to him on Word Balloon and you'll see the guys hates the X-Men or at least thinks the Inhumans are cooler. I'll stick to the Gold book and Weapon X for starters. His Swamp Thing was cool, so maybe he'll win me over. As a Daredevil and X-Men fan, though, the guy's been a disaster.

Do X-men fans still exist? I would think Marvel had snuffed the last of them out by now. The audience for this is almost guaranteed to be new to the franchise.

This sounds like a GOOD thing, for once in a long time they're not telling X-Men fans to just take their scraps and be happy, they're showing a desire to actually get more people onboard and grow X-Men's popularity again.

Of course we'll see how this approach actually pans out once Marvel editorial and executives have had their turn with it.

>>90645579
implying any longtime x-men fans still read x-men after the last few years

>>90645242
I think it's funny how Marvel fans love to talk about how Marvel is all about continuity, but 90% of their books don't even use it.

jesus fucking christ, marvel is gassing the last handful of x-men fans. I don't even keep up with the x-men anymore

>>90645278
I was trying to tell him. He won't listen.

>>90646175
They are talking about the movies whenever they say that.

>>90645278

Weird, usually his twitter is filled with nothing but enabling sycophants. I guess IvX was the straw that broke the camel's back.

>>90645242
super retarded continuity is what's fucking up X Men anyways

only fucking massive Comic Book Guy-tier spergs in their 30s-40s who've been reading X Men for years and somehow still enjoy it would care about this

>>90645579
>Nobody is told more often to drink piss and like it than X-Men fans.
Being an X-Men fan is suffering.

>>90645242
Soule's like the ULTIMATE B-list writer. Remember when Astonishing meant you get big names like Whedon or Warren Ellis?

>>90645278
>Continuity and Canon are the weeds in the garden of comics storytelling
What, it's more like fertilizer you dumb bitch.

>>90647408
>Whedon
>Warren Ellis
>>Big names
For (YOU)

>>90647261
Most of /co/. Wait /co/ doesn't read comics.

>>90645744
Thirty somethings who watched the cartoon as children.

>>90645242
I never read X-Men because of their shitty continuity. Good for him to ignore that, maybe I can start now.

>>90645242
He's not even talking about retcons, just that he's not wanking off the continuity, this a non-issue, I've read so much fucking X-Men, but you can't possibly remember this 30 fucking years telenovela unless you're a full basement dweller re-reading back issues daily. Soule is a good working man writer, good with giving some life into dead B-teams, the whole RessureXion team of writers and artist is super underwhelming, but I have faith that if one guy's getting a sneaker hit in, it'll be Charles "made the Red Lanterns book actually work for a hot mine" Soule.

this is fucking stupid
>We need to play fast and loose with continuity because then newer fans will get confused
It's called fucking editor notes you idiots. With the ease of access of getting older issues now with Comixology you'd think they'd be more common as a way of telling new readers what to read in case they're confused.
>We need to put Magneto in fullpower again because it's confusing that he's weakened for some reason
>Just roll with it
This is stupid.

>>90647602
Soule hasn't had a great book in a long time, it'll be Bunn who's actually gonna deliver since we know he can at least write Magneto

>>90645242
He's already shown he can't write the x-men or inhumans well. The book is doomed.

>ITT: Editors don't want to do work and Writer doesn't want to be bothered to do research

>>90645278
>new reader friendly
when will they learn?

>>90647548
He just wants to permantly kill off more mutants. Disney want the X-Men franchise dead so they can hopefully one day pick it up cheap from Fox.

Unlucky for them most people only like X-Men til the 91-95 era then dropped it already.

>>90647548
>WAAAAH CONTINUITY AND HISTORY IS SCARY
>I CAN'T START A BOOK UNLESS I READ AND UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING ABOUT IT
this is just lazy on the writer's side and stupid on your side.

Good, I like my continuity fast and loose, just the way DC gives it to me. All the halfway decent writers think this way, only massive spergs like Byrne want sterile canon.

>>90645242
Get fucking rid of the o5 and I'm willing to listen.

>>90645743
Swamp Thing is a perfect example as he picked up off a single run, mostly doing all his own thing.

More so with Inhumans.

Compare that to Daredevil, he'll do his own thing and that's it.

>>90648057
/Thread

>>90647538
ie the only people on earth who buy comic books, Soule is going to get ran out of X-Men so fast, I'll be shocked if he makes it through an entire year with that attitude.

>>90645242
the fuck happened to him? I liked his DC works.

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>>90648858
>ie the only people on earth who buy comic books
There are people still buying X-Men comics who care about continuity? I find that very hard to believe.

>>90648885
He's a yes man who'll write anything. Inhumanity, Wolverines, Inhumans, and IvX. Give him whatever. Daredevil and She Hulk are the only titles of his on Marvel that seems to genuinely evoke some sense of quality. It's clear he has no interest with any of these seeing on his blatant disregard and ignorance of continuity all under the banner of him trying to keep it simple for new readers (Like seriously what the fuck, I doubt a new reader would be picking up IvX to start something, in fact someone new who started pre-Secret Wars would be more confused with how Magneto and Company have their powers working and how people still think Cyclops is wrong)

>>90646128
There's been quite a few X-Men fans who have jumped over to DC since Rebirth.

>>90649048
>Source: my hairy ass

>>90647408
No. Warren Ellis's run on AXM pretty much killed the book as an A-list title.

>>90648885
>the fuck happened to him? I liked his DC works.

He had better editors at DC.

>>90647984
>>90647261
There's a difference between playing loose and fast with continuity and not even being consistent with the books, which is where the X-Men are at now.

"CONTINUITY SHOULD ALWAYS BE IGNORED" is what got us "Cyclops is Hitler!..... Because.... uh.... he destroyed the Terrigen Mists because it was killing Mutants!"

Isn't X-Men continuity in particular incredibly convoluted and downright self-contradictory in places? There's a bunch of timelines to keep track of, character histories that have changed completely over the years, tons of retcons, alternate universes, changing allegiances, etc. etc.

Fuck, I kinda agree with him that comic book continuity shouldn't be considered sacrosanct, especially because writers fuck with said continuity all the goddamn time, making sweeping retroactive changes to shit so they can sell a few more comics by, say, making Captain America a HYDRA sleeper agent somehow. Not that it fucking matters, because eventually it's all back to the fucking status quo anyway. It confuses me that longtime comic readers bitch about this shit when they know damn well that shit will go back to normal inside of a year anyway.

>>90645242
I agree that it's a nice idea...but "long term X-Men fans" are the only people who read X-Men comics...

>>90645743
>His Swamp Thing was cool,
I keep hearing people say this (and it was much much better at the start of his run than the Rotworld clusterfuck that preceded it); but I got really pissed when he killed off The Parliament of Trees and just gave up and quit reading when he went full Lantern Spectrum with the Avatars (We had Green (plants), Red (animals), Grey (fungus), plus Machines and Microbes and probably a few more I'm forgetting.

And every single thing he's done since Thunderbolts as been mediocre-to-shit (including his indie stuff like Letter 44 and Curse Words).

Nigger's on my short list of "don't even bother" at this point along with Bendis and Hopeless.

>>90647707
Can all of you please fuck off with this "Bunn is good because Magneto" meme? That series went straight to shitter as soon as the original artist left the title. After that it was just meandering with no clear goal in sight and ended with a whimper in the godawful Secret Wars tie-in.

Bullshit. There is no way to write all those characters without addressing the already built-in drama.

>>90649488
>it was just meandering with no clear goal in sight and ended with a whimper in the godawful Secret Wars tie-in.
THIS! I went back and read it expecting it to be like Vision or Hawkeye and it was just stuff happens. And then more stuff happens. Because reasons. The End.

>>90649020
>Daredevil and She Hulk are the only titles of his on Marvel that seems to genuinely evoke some sense of quality.
They're both fellow Juris Doctors (although I personally think he's too close to home with them: I found the legal bits in both comics to be tedious and uninteresting and I've read plenty of crime comics and watched more than my share of Legal Dramas over the years).

>>90649425
>but I got really pissed when he killed off The Parliament of Trees

you should have kept on reading because he didn't really kill them, but I guess you seem to like to jump to conclusions and ragequit.

>We had Green (plants), Red (animals), Grey (fungus), plus Machines and Microbes and probably a few more I'm forgetting.

Only machines and microbes were his. Gray/Red/Green already existed pre-Nu52. Furthermore none of that is original. The Vertigo run of ST as well as 80s Firestorm and 90s Aquaman established several other elemental groupings with ST being a player in them.

>>90649748
>you should have kept on reading
Charlie, you're drunk. Go home.

>>90645242
I just wanted the Inhuman shilling and their fart cloud gone. And for "Cyclops is Hitler" to stop.

The former is stopping now (hopefully) so maybe Cyclops will stop being shit on also.

Maybe now we can move forward to an actual interesting status quo (seriously, this inhuman cloud shit was the worst thing Marvel had done in a long time. Right up there with CW2). HOPEFULLY.

>>90649414
X-Men continuity isn't end all be all , but you won't be able to get away with undoing the Messiah War and the Dark Angel Saga without at least addressing them.

I'm not saying we have to bring up that time Mystique disguised herself as a teenage student to try and fuck Gambit, but you can't rewind these characters to the 1990's

personally as long as Soule remembers Gambit's and Rogue's accents and spares us another White Psylocke returns story, I'll be happy.

>>90649488
You know the reason why people praise Bunn is because of Sinestro.

>>90647261
>only fucking massive Comic Book Guy-tier spergs in their 30s-40s who've been reading X Men for years and somehow still enjoy it would care about this
Wait, you mean the people who consistently buy comicbooks?

>>90647538

As a thirty-something who watched X-Men as a kid this is why I don't read X-Men, and am largely picking up DC books.

I'd LOVE a good Wolverine book man, and a good X-Men book would be ace too.

>>90645242
But continuity IS shit.

Bring
back
Claremont

>>90647707
>With the ease of access of getting older issues now with Comixology you'd think they'd be more common as a way of telling new readers what to read in case they're confused.

People don't wanna go down a rabbit hole of editor's notes solely to appease an autist who has too much free time on their hands to read 34958930248293058293058293068905 comics.

>>90645579
They know that there's no coming back. The X-fans are wise to them and can't forgive the bullshit.

>>90647548
10c has been deposited into your Marvel © Helpers Corner ™ intern account. Thank you for participating. Please remember that montly contact hours are mandatory.

>>90650926
They did and I don't remember what even happened. I think it was X-Men '92 but unsure.

>>90651137
X-men Forever and Extreme.

>>90651170
>X-Treme

He's right. for comics that change writers, continuity is deadweight.

>>90647820
Nah, the X-Men pogrom is over
Perlmutter runs Marvel Entertainment. Now that he's been kicked off the movies he has no reason to keep the Fantastic 4 and X-Men down

After this happened, RessurXtion was announced and FF was hinted to return

>>90651218
So basically comics shouldn't exist past the life of one writer? I see. Because otherwise what you're suggesting is that it's all alt worlds and OOC fanfiction.
I don't disagree with you either. A lot of good runs are contained. Time to do away with the bug names then, though. Have writers actually come up with their own shit and create their own worlds and chacaters.
That or keep contiuity and respect the role it plays in continuing the story.
One or the other.

>continuity isn't important
Guess I shouldn't expect good writing from comic writers. I will stick with my books.

>>90651218

for comics in general, accessibility is dead weight. It's not an industry on the rise or one with a diverse audience.

In this case you're pissing off some of the only people who read your book. Continuity may be hard but DC tries to keep it in order and Marvel doesn't give a fuck. Which companies comics are doing well again?

>>90645278
>>90645242
This "new readers bullshit" is the same as a game developer saying "we want a to attract a new audience" it never works, just look at Saint row

>>90651137
>>90650926
Marvel is paying Claremont to NOT write

>>90651050
that's the beauty of it, they don't have too unless they're an autist like you. I've seen tons of editor's notes but that doesn't mean I followed through all of them, more or less the typical reaction you would get would be keeping that issue in mind in case they actually feel willing. It doesn't even have to be a specific issue, sometimes they just point out past events or moments

>>90650926
Claremont is shit now, did you fucking read Nightcrawler? Just enjoy X-Men Forever you old faggot.

>>90648936
Have you never come across a characterfag? They'll buy the books every month and rage about whatever shit is happening in them. Hopefully at some point they'll get sick of it and leave en masse.

>>90651988
Well Batman's been selling well for close to 80 years, so that's never happening

>>90652006
>been selling well for close to 80 years
>Batfags believe this
Batman wasn't always the selling force he is today.

>>90652006
Batman is a different beast at this point but I think batfags can probably claim they've at least been given some decent runs these past few years (maybe, these past couple of decades?) compared to what the xfags (and spiderfags) have gotten.

>>90647984
Dc has consistent continuity since rebirth

>>90652097

Batfags are easy to please. They loved Snyder's run, after all. Hell, they love most things. They love both King's and Tynion's runs right now even though they couldn't possibly be any more different. Though I think the ones that love Tynion's 'Tec are technically "Batfam-fags"

>>90652086
he was one of only three superheroes to survive the purge of the 1950s

>>90653720
The Trinity survived.

>>90645744
Does Deadpool count as X-men book

>>90653755
probably why they are the Trinity in the first place

>>90653881
yes and no

>>90653899
Never said otherwise, there's a reason why they were the icons of American comics for decades before MCU.

Heck even now people will remember the Justice League more than anything Marvel:

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>>90645278
New readers fucking love continuity. They don't get overwhelmed, they don't freak out, they don't run away because they don't understand why X has Y now. They get fucking stoke and want to learn more about their hero. They want to understand their rivalries of long ago, their past dramas, getting to see what the hero was before they discovered them. I have never met a fan get spook away from a good book because the lore was heavy, instead they eat that shit up.
Now writers, writers can be huge manbaby pussy that can't handle that shit. They want to tell their story and lore blocks that off them. They want heroes and villains the way they want them damn the lore and damn the fans. So rather than manning up and working with what they got they go full bitch and make weak ass excuses like "reader friendly" when really all it does it make a reader that much more confused because now you need a damn flowchart to understand what is canon now and what isn't and that keeps readers away more than anything. It was one of the reason Marvel kept such a huge lead on DC in the 80s and 90s. At Marvel, it all happen, every story was all tied together. DC on the other hand, required you to keep track of what revision you were on.

tldr:Readers like lore and history. This guy is a huge tool and is just that lazy to do his job right.

>>90650581
Wait, you mean people who just accept whatever shit Marvel shovels their way because they're fucking dumb and can keep up with the overly convoluted history of the X Men because they have no lives, hobbies or other interests?

>>90654244
>because they have no lives, hobbies or other interests?
Irrelevant, but yes.
Those people, the people who actually buy comics.

>>Soule explicitly says he's not ignoring continuity but just won't make it super important

Fans: he's ruining the continuity and ignoring everything that eva happened!

>>90651924
Or better, look at Square Enix, or Capcom.

All their "people doesn't like that anymore" or "we need to adapt to the new times" but now their surviving franchises do OK at best when they used to be best sellers.

They never stop saying "change is necessary to appeal the new audiences", but the only thing they achieved with changes was kill most of their franchises

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>>90654266
Shit. You got me. You're actually right.

People with criminally bad taste and retarded levels of brand loyalty are in fact the ones buying Marvel comics.

>>90654427
>saving TGT images from facebook

The dense continuity was always a selling point for the X-Men to me.

>>90645242

>I want that Marvel paycheck, but I don't wanna have to do anything more than read the wiki for each mutant

I wouldn't put to much stock into what he says anyway. Remember when he said Black Bolt would be the main character of Uncanny Inhumans?

>>90651987
>I've seen tons of editor's notes but that doesn't mean I followed through all of them,

I think that is called unprofessionalism...

>>90647602

Red Lanterns was only liked because Soule was smart enough to know that Guy-wank is all it takes for people to love a GL comic. His Inhuman work was mediocre at best and often worse, and has actively damaged the Inhuman mythos, from the terrigen shit to destroying Medusa/Black Bolt. His Daredevil sucks, Superman/Wonder Woman was hot garbage, as was his Thunderbolts. I don't think I even need to speak on the insulting quality of IvX...

There's no reason to expect good work from this man currently.

Has there been an X-story since Secret Wars that was worth a shit?

I honestly can't remember the last x-story that was well received, maybe Remender's X-Force?

>>90654731
Old Man Logan. That's it

How many fucking X-books are there now?

>>90645278
Comic book canons are often a poorly-written clusterfuck, and as a result a lot of stories are only worth looking at independently.

I don't think continuity is all that high of a barrier for new readers, though. Continuity and accessibility aren't mutually exclusive. The issue is when books become self-referential soap operas, which is all too often with cape books.

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I came back to comics early last year after twenty years away. X-Men, Generation X, Jubilee Cyclops, Rogue, etc.

This last year of reEducation has been full of fuck.

>>90651419
He has no reason to keep the X-men down since Marvel is working with Fox on the X-men shows. He still has a reason to keep the FF down though.

>>90654982
>X-men: Blue
>X-men: Gold
>Astonishing X-men
>Generation-X
>Weapon-X
>Old Man Logan
>Cable
>All-new Wolverine
>Jean Grey
>Iceman

So, 10. Or as an X-fag would put it, "nowhere near enough."

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>>90645744
never forget the x-men

If I tweet "Fuck you for ruinning Emma, REEEEE"

will my coworkers and friends who have twiiter see that?

>>90655150
The problem with that line-up is we're getting decent at best.
>>90655387
If they follow both of you or if they visit your page with your replies, yes.

>>90655117
Unless he's planning an FF tv show, he doesn't. And considering the stellar success that was FF, FF2 and Fant4stic I doubt that's gonna happen

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>>90645242
>we're bringing X-Men back on track
>you asked for it, here it is!
>a book where the cast is 100% 90s nostalgia pandering for the old guard fans
>"I wanted to favor accessibility over strict continuity in Astonishing. Some longtime X-Men fans may dislike that"

>>90654244
God DAMN the Marvel shills are mad

>>90655409
>Decent at best
You are too kind, we are getting painfully average at best

>>90645743
>Remender's Cap was good
He. Hehehe.

>>90655150
Blue and Gold are twice a month books too.

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>>90645579
Wahhh wag bishop a murderer.

Wahh he isnt anymore.

Never change you fucking retards.

Put this back in canon.

>>90645242
Damn, why most Marvel writters hate continuity so much?

>>90658366
Because they're lazy? This isn't hard.

>>90658366
Too much to read for a longest ongoing universe. Plus joes from event comics, which is same as image.

Early image didnt care about it either.

>>90658366
Because it's extra work for them.

Imagine if you are a writer. You're expected to know 50+ years of X-Men lore and history and adhere to it. You may feel like you can't tell the stories you want to tell. But that is part of a shared universe with long history, you have to adhere to it.

The editor should be the one that knows it well, and the writer's story should go through the editor, get notes back on what can and can't work, etc.

>>90651924

They actually lost a lot of sales by changing focus of the game in 1/2 to 3/4 by almost half, so that's almost a low blow. And 2nd game is still their highest selling one, which always made me laugh.

>>90658414
You know, if I was a writer I woulsn't mind to read a lot of old comic books to do a good job. Then again, I wouldn't pitch any X-book because of the convoluted story.

>>90656850

>brings it back
>completely ignores why people liked it in first place
>?????
>success?

>accessibility
He means money

>>90655150

>10 shitty books
>enough

They can't write for shit anymore so they're trying the plaster the market trick

Name one writer outside of Fanservice Bunn that is liked on here.

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>>90645242
>"Continuity is shit"

Someone do a Marvel version of this.

X-men need a fucking reboot.

>>90658510
No one likes Pak anymore? I'll admit his Storm read too much like a Claremont's Greatest Hits Rehashed.

>caring about continuity

Only for the fattest of neckbeards.

>>90658565
Why? All reboots do is enable lazy writers to retell stories that were told before.

It's not fucking hard to stay within continuity. Each character has a history, you just follow that. So you can't have Magneto with a fresh slate. He's done a lot of shit. It's comics, people always forgive and forget. Like wrestling when someone turns.

>>90658463
The more you read, the more errors come up.

>>90658589

They have the guy that created and defended Ollicity, writing one of them. I think that really tells the whole story as an example and anecdote.

>>90658589
Pak's quality varies wildly from book to book

>>90656850
>100% 90s nostalgia pandering for the old guard fans
Objectively wrong.

>>90658742
It's like 88% 90s nostalgia. Fantomex is the odd one out, being a 00s parody of 90s X-Men.

>>90654094
Well said, Carl. Well said.

>>90658818
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>>90654094
90s marvel is full of canon errors.

Dont kid yourself.

>>90655150
There are MAYBE 2 books of any quality on that list. My beef isn't how many X-Books we get, it's that the authors and editors are asking X-Fags to open up wide and eat their shit month after month.

Reduce the lineup to 4 books and as long as they are all well written I will suck everyone involved's dick for all I care, just give me quality over quantity.

>>90659389
For less profits? Nice try.

I agree with bad and good continuity, honestly. People often write some really awful shit that takes an (at the time) irretrievable dump on something.

But then later on, someone actually does manage to do some continuity magic and fix it. And you have the appreciate for both a good story in-and-of itself but also for the skill in finagling the meta stuff. So it's a mixed bag. If every writer were good, continuity would be great - but they ain't.

>>90659421
Okay then give me 10 books, but try and make at least 5 of them decent? I would like to look forward, week to week, to the offerings of X-Books. Lord knows I can't stop reading them, but it's a sick compulsion to imbibe the dreck.

Honestly this feels like Groundhog's Day, where I just peeked out of my burrow and saw that yes indeed the X line will be shit for another two years.

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>>90655150
>So, 10. Or as an X-fag would put it, "nowhere near enough."

>>90659613
Quality is subjective.

>>90645744
Most of us exist only by the grace of ignoring half the shit Marvel's put out over the last decade.

>>90646113
Depends how he does it. I'm fine with someone using X23 and just not mentioning her past very much. It's complicated and I can see how it would turn off new readers to need to know it to understand the character. I'm not fine with them pretending it doesn't exist, and making her a perky goth chick or something.

>>90658816
Wrong again
>Fantomex is the odd one out, being a 00s parody of 90s X-Men
shitty "parody" doesn't count
Scott's still ded
Jean's still ded
Logan's still ded
Chuck's still ded
Iceman's still gaywashed
Beast's still a faggot and gone
Gen X only has Jubes who's likely still a vampire (this detail I don't mind that much, but anyway)
those shitty O5 copies are still around
probably a whole lot of other stuff I don't recall right now, is there even a Xavier school again?!

>>90659613
>yes indeed the X line will be shit for another two years
>two years
>years
I think we can safely make the jump from "years" to "decades," anon.

>>90647548
It's fine to go in not understanding everything and slowly piecing together past details over time. It especially makes rereads more worthwhile which ultimately increases the value of the comic.
Watering it down so that you understand everything right away in many cases makes the comic less fulfilling.
But maybe you're just trolling.

>>90660242
>Jubes who's likely still a vampire
Don't forget: also still a Teen Mom, because reasons.

>>90659421
>less profits
Yeah, gotta hand out all those "free" comics that don't sell like they should because they suck.
One decent X-Men book in their prime and a slightly lower price could probably sell on Batman levels.

>>90660318
They all sell.

Can't pander to your childhood forever.

>>90660395
>They all sell.
Yeah, I wonder how Marvel noticed no one was enjoying their direction and decided to change it a bit, even if they're doing it wrong.

All of those "Hawkeye", Champions and GLA (which shouldn't even be on the same boat, I doubt it sucks as hard) copies they shove down comic shops' throats? They're doing it out of kindness. Because every one of the fellow kids should have the opportunity to know how amazing girl-Hawkeye and Waid's millenial youth team are.

>>90660509
Nah they sold. We are talking about Xmen not the diversity push.

>>90650822
>this is what desperate Marvel shills actually believe

>>90645744
X-shit still outsells the Avengers and is far, far above the Shithumans so while Marvel's undoubtedly driven some away they're still a big chunk of the readers below maybe Spider-Man and Star Wars.

>>90646113
I'm only fine with it in the sense that ignoring or handwaving away Lucas "Time Lost Holocaust" Bishop because fuck what was done to him.

>>90660395
>They all sell.

I wouldn't call a book that used to sell at the 50,000-60,000 level five years ago now selling in the 30,000's selling "well."

>>90660242
>a book where the cast is 100% 90s nostalgia pandering for the old guard fans
refers to Astonishing, not the entire line.

>>90661018
>X-shit still outsells the Avengers

I'd say they're nearly even.

Avengers #4 37,383
Uncanny Avengers #20 31,089
Avengers #4.1 22,810
Us Avengers #3 19,476

Uncanny X-Men #18 34,948
Extraordinary X-Men#19 32,328
All New X-Men #18 30,334
All New X-Men #1.MU 24,202

>>90661054
Still selling.

Its all about spiderman now.

>>90661181
>Us Avengers #3 19,476
It hurts

>>90660924
>X-Men
>not part of the diversity push
I know you may think the current numbers are good, but the numbers before bendis shat the bed have been posted here. X-Men used to be a top seller.

>>90661072
Still doesn't work. Oldverine isn't 90s nostalgia, and muh-parody-totally-not-a-morrison-self-insert Fantomex doesn't count. Mystique wasn't a 90s X-Men. If Simon breaks free from Rogue like people have been speculating, she won't be the team flying brick everyone was used to.

...And Psylocke wearing pants. That just ain't right.

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>>90645242
>>90645278
>But see, it's still LOOSELY related to canon and continuity. Like, the guy with claws is still named Wolverine, the laser guy is still named Cyclops, it has everything for that tiny, insignificant minority of long-time comic fans. Aren't those guys too old for superheroes anyways?
>It's just that I want to tell -MY- stories of the characters the way -I- think the characters should behave, and I don't want to be tied down by all these silly restrictions of "established character development" and "integral plot coherence".
>Yeah, no, it's okay. I'm just going to make it bad. It's alright. I'll take the hit. I'm totally okay with making this thing a huge steaming pile of shit that appeals to an imaginary demographic.

>>90645242
I remember his Swamp Thing run actually being good.

oh have the mighty have fallen

I ain't reading anything with his name on it ever again

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>>90645744
just waiting for Claremont's Uncanny X-men Omnibus Vol 4...

>>90645743
>Soule seemed not to have realized that Jeph Loeb had written a whole storyline where Logan killed Sabretooth
Yeah but he came back

>>90661449
No diversty in xmem. Facts.

Moving on, sales are down because of no wolverine, gay iceman, fanbase getting old.

>>90649401
That one is less because "continuity should be ignored" and more because they decided to print the destination without ever thinking of the journey. It's very obvious that they didn't think up the whole deal with what happened in Death of X until long after printing the initial post-Secret Wars comics given the massive of fuck ups of Storm and Magik thinking Cyclops was a monster when they were with him the whole time.

Like printing the ending to a story when you haven't even thought up the middle 85%.

>>90650155
Dark Angel Saga was already fixed/addressed by Bunn in UXM though. Angel was split into two halves thanks to Genocide and Clan Akkabah: there was Warren, the peaceful messianic preacher and Archangel, the silent and mindless deathbringer as Clan Akkabah was using Warren to create an army of Archangels to bring about the end of the world. Since they were part of Warren, he absorbed them (and thus the Archangel persona) back into himself, no longer denying it was part of him. He now had his memories back but wasn't completely back to normal as he still needed to work through them and find his sense of self and because of this he was reborn as a pacifist type.

It's not really convoluted: split into two, recombined into one, slowly regaining his identity. There's no real need to go back to it because it was resolved and it's easy enough now to just go "Warren worked it out and he's back to being the classic Warren and not the wannabe Apocalypse or almost childish doofus after being reborn".

>>90659233
That's why you need a writer like Morrison or Johns to come in and clean things up without just jettisoning everything from before. You pay respects to the history while retrofitting it and condensing it to build meaningful stories on top of it.

>>90658366
they're all failed TV/film writers who didn't grow up reading comic books

>>90662481
Samefagging but of course Soule will go back to it because writers can't really leave well enough alone, they have to give their own resolution to already resolved issues which is what leads to shit like turning Bishop into a genocidal psychopath because the traitor turned out to be Hope even though the issue had been resolved 10 years earlier when the traitor turned out to be Xavier as Onslaught but writers totally needed to tell that story of "Bishop kills billions trying to murder a kid". Soule will likely ignore most what happened with Warren in Bunn's run

>>90645242
>>90645278
There are plenty of good comics that side step canon, and plenty of terrible ones that follow it. Pacing, dialogue writing, and especially art all matter much more.

>>90654094
Amen, it's an excuse for lazy writers and even lazier editors.

Continuity was maintained for decades and new readers were constantly flocking to the medium. Storytelling was rigid but it forced a natural progression of a character. Now every writer takes their turn and tells "their story" regardless of continuity/backstory/etc. They write themselves into a corner and then jump ship, so that the next writer can either take up the loose story and desperately try to write themselves out of the recipes mess or just dump everything and tell "their story."

I got into comics between '87 ~ '88 and the canon enforced was vast but it wasn't intimidating...even to an 8 year old. It was lore, it was history, it was a hint of past treasures. I would read the little editor notes and try to imagine the lost tale. I couldn't look it up online and my LCS didn't have much in the way of back issues...late 70's if you were lucky. Once a month we might drive into the city where a cavernous and dusty old comic shop might contain these ancient tomes. I couldn't afford anything significant but the hunt was part of the fun and the owner would suggest affordable alternatives (that's how I ended up getting into Defenders, Marvel Horror/Cosmic, Kirby's DC work, LOSH, etc.).

With the slow erosion of continuity and the persistence of decompression storytelling comics have gone from rich (at times overwritten) well-researched/crafted adventures to sparsely written author inserts that have bland slice of life chats in between punch-outs/light shows/etc. You could read an old comic 4 or 5 times and still find little things that you missed originally. Now you can breeze through a comic in under 3 minutes and the only reason to ever go back and read it again was because you were searching for something of substance that you surely missed...

I really don't get why /co/ likes to frame this as some kind of dichotomy where you have to choose a side, continuity or accessibility. It all comes down to the story you're telling. It's not like a character's past is relevant to every single adventure they have. Just acknowledge their past if it's relevant to the story you want to do. Even then you can address a character's past in an accessible way (even if it's something super convoluted, just acknowledge that a character "had a crazy past" or something).

>>90662767
those who don't remember history are doomed to repeat it, or in the case of comic readers forced to pay $4.99 to reread it.

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>>90645579
>Forgetting about us Star Wars nerds
Fuck you. I threw all my shit into the garage the day TFA came out and people were chastising me for not going to see it.

>Lol! What's the big deal, anon? They're just making it so EVERYONE can enjoy it! Don't be such a hateful nerd!
>SEE! All my favorite celebrities are saying that you're being a nitpicky bigot, so you should go see it so people don't think that of you!
>mfw I can't enjoy SW without people bringing up the new hamfisted SJW bullshit Marvel and Disney come out with

Seriously. Fuck you.

>>90647408
I would say Soule's on the level of someone like Nicieza but Nicieza was generally a solid if unspectacular writer though not without his bad. Soule's a mostly sub-par writer who can occasionally do something good so he's more on the level of a Howard Mackie or Terry Kavanagh.

>>90654094
Pretty much this. When I was new and had no idea what what shit like Annihilus and the Negative Zone was, I didn't start hitting my head against a wall in confusion, but went ahead and looked it up and read some more comics about them. A deeper universe filled with lots of stuff in it is much more engrossing and appealing than accessibility.

>>90662179
>fanbase getting old
And still perfectly willing to pay for good stories. If only Marvel would allow those.

>>90662486
>Morrison
>clean things up
*fucking everything up and leaving in a "lol trolled u" mood

>>90662851
Yeah this is the main problem I have. Shit gets repetive as story beats are recycled because the writers don't do their homework well enough.

>>90662486
How can you fit magento shit together? Or futures?

Hypertime is too confusing for fans.

Only a reboot where certain stuff gets erased works.

why did wolvie not know cap in sw? But knew him a jim lee book?

How did caranage magically escape the prison sufer uncased him in?

Why did one ff book mentioned wolvie loseing his metal but grim had has face cut up, but in xmen grimm was normal?

How do we explain magento acting like a nazi, yet new jewish history conflicting that? How do we explain Mags isn't xorn but is at the same time?

Marvel is just slowly morhing into archie comics style.

>>90662924
Good is subjective. Most want crap imo.

>>90662858
That being said, I actually enjoy the freemakers.

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>>90663014
why did wolvie not know cap in sw? But knew him a jim lee book?
you idiot stop posting this.

X-Men 268 is a WW2 flashback story, when Wolverine meets Cap and Black Widow(as a Child) for the first time,

>>90663014
not him but
>why did wolvie not know cap in sw?
what's sw even

>How do we explain magento acting like a nazi
morrison's shitty writing, got retconned right away

>Why did one ff book mentioned wolvie loseing his metal but grim had has face cut up, but in xmen grimm was normal?
I'm trying to get what this means, is it about the Thing getting scarred?

a lot of this sounds like you just not paying attention

>>90654094
Fucking this. I lost count of the amount of people i got into comics that spent hours reading shit on random Wikis to get some background about a character or team, about what they did and why they are where they are.
New readers fucking love devouring all that. Look at any fandom. The amount of fanwank about lore and pointless trivial shit is massive.

The "lore scares readers" myth is 100% made up writer/editorial bullshit to justify not keeping track of their own creations.

>>90662767
We didn't create the argument with continuity vs accessibility, lazy editors created that mentality and used it to justify their laziness. We just dispute the argument and lament the slow death of comics.

Continuity/Lore used to be a feature of comics not a bug.

The continuity of comics made a new reader feel like they were part of a big ongoing story. Now Marvel dumps a "jumping on point" every 6 months, every 6 months things reset or change "forever" and the whole thing is confusing and irritating for new readers. In the past a new reader might occasional follow an editor's note and uncover their favorite characters history but by bit. As you learned more about their past you understood them a bit better in the present and it made you invested in their future. Now the past is forgotten the present is disposable and the future has nothing to do with anything.

>>90663191
>Together again for the first time

what does that even mean

>says most generic thing to hype his new comic
>/co/ jumps on him

god guys take a breath

>>90663191
Secret Wars you retard. The series in the 80s, wolvie didn't even know him nor did cap knew wolvie

>>90663276
Nah. Cbr did lot of articles how 90's comics have errors and mistakes.

It's not a new thing.

>>90663276
>>How do we explain magento acting like a nazi
>morrison's shitty writing, got retconned right away

I don't think he was talking about the Morrison version

>>90654094
>New readers fucking love continuity.
Speaking only for myself, I loved continuity from older comics. It was cool that there was this whole world, created brick by brick over the past half a century, for these characters to inhabit. Most of that was because of good writers though. They seemed like they weren't expecting me to know everything that had ever happened, and were always nice enough to drop a little exposition to explain when something obscure was referenced.

My issue was cross comic continuity, when a character was used in 3 or 4 comics at once, and their story in one would cross over into the others. Like I was reading JLI, and suddenly, out of nowhere, Powergirl is an Atlanian sorceress? That kind of shit threw me for a loop.

>>90649048
I'm one.

Never been much of a DC guy, loved the X-Men and FF, after the last few years I'm basically done with Marvel's bullshit.

DC at least seems like they respect their fans. If I'm paying money for a product and a brand, I expect some level of quality from the product and some level of respect from the brand.

If not, I take my business elsewhere.

>>90662858

You weren't wrong anon, they've actually made the OT pointless and shitted on Luke's character so badly, the 30 plus years of EU stuff on Luke into..him being a failure, since turning his father back to light didn't accomplish anything.

It's kinda funny. By replicating the OT, they made it redundant and pointless.

>>90654094
>>90662916
>>90662763
Absolutely. It's like getting into a show you love and realizing there's a bunch of cool spin-offs and prequels and sequels.

Who the fuck would complain? Like "oh, hey, you like this thing, here's more of it!" OH HOW TERRIBLE.

And continuity was never a lock-out. Ever. I was a kid who spoke English as a second language and only bought the few random floppies I could find, and I still got into comics and managed to wrap my head around it. Comics have always been very careful about using recap pages, summaries, the little yellow boxes, character narration etc. to explain like 90% of the stuff you might not know.

The other 10% are mostly fan-service and can be skipped - like if someone walked into TFA without ever having seen Star Wars, but knowing roughly what the setting is (a decent comparison), and they see the scene where C3PO shows up just so fans can orgasm, he or she might not get much out of it, but it doesn't really detract from the movie, and if anything encourages you to see the other ones, because they still matter.

>>90663815
Shut the fuck up, Soule. I hope you die alone in a fire.

>>90655303
God damn for all his flaws Gillen could take a turd story and make it great when it came to the X-Men.

AvX was a horrendous piece of shit 90% of the time, and then you get to his parts and they're creative, difference, character studies with cool moments.

And we got Bendis after that.

>>90663940
Wolverine is wearing a fucking mask in Secret Wars

The reality is that people deterred by continuity aren't going to read the comics for long at all. People like that don't like to read. This idea is complete nonsense started by lazy fucks like Bendis years ago and it has never bore out, never showed in the numbers.

You'll get some new people picking up first issues or completed trades after seeing a movie, but even of these people, the only ones who will stick around are people who like the nature of the beast that is ongoing superhero comics.

No one has ever thought "I don't really read comics, but I would totally keep reading this series for years if only the characters were like-brand-new-but-not-really."

They think people that don't like having a lot of material available to read are going to be interested in reading long-term when what these people are actually saying is that they don't like the idea of longterm reading. They are trying to teach a cat to swim when it just wants a tiny lick from the water bowl.

>>90664768
Well, they couldn't go ahead and keep a good writer on UXM since they were trying to push inhumans over X-men. Hence, Bendis.

>>90667618
The Inhuman meme came midway into his run. They were bad, but not deliberately sabotaged.

>>90664663
>>90654094
>>90662763
A fucking men, I had a DC encyclopedia that felt like a bible, telling of years of mythologies. Comfy, to say the least. It got me into comics.

>>90667696
The sad thing is, at that point, Remender and Gillen were the best things that had happened to the X-titles in a decade. Then we got Bendis on two titles... At least Bunn's UXM was good, imo. Except for Land's "art".

>>90667786
i haven't read it in over a decade because of bendis. this won't make me read it. its another garbage writer just just doing whatever. sometimes continuity is shit is shit. handwaving isn't always bad. but as a whole continuity is what makes comics interesting. ignoring it means you pretty much have no respect for the property. its a shame that Claremonts vision of a changing xmen has been destroyed by bendis and current writers are hacks.

>>90658366
Effort, mostly. Bendis for example screws up his own continuity within the same story, let alone something from the 70s Fantastic Four stories.

It would be nice to have more Ewings, but for now I'd just like them to get all their current shit sorted.

>>90647408

Warren Ellis sucks. Thinking Warren Ellis is A-list is the reason why the industry spent an entire decade in recession.

>>90654731

all-new wolverine was a fun read, but didn't feel anything like a traditional Wolverine book, which is probably why Old Man Logan's ongoing keeps outselling it

>>90645744
If CBR is any indication, X fags still exist

>>90662858
Fucking this!! Fuck nuStarwars.

>>90645242
It's an improvement over Bendis.

>>90645242
Why is astonishing still a thing?

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>>90647408
Whedon is a TERRIBLE comic writer. Holy shit, what makes him a big name? Because he worked on a couple shitty tv shows? Whedon is the biggest hack and the only reason astonishing is seen as out of continuity.

>retards actually think whedon is an important name because he worked on a tv show

Yeah cm punk is a hugely important big name too, right? Maybe we can have him do a run on astonishing too

>>90664449
If it's the same cap he posted, I don't see Magneto going for genocide or any shit like that. Being a dictator doesn't equal nazi.

>>90664477
To be fair, DC can't make up their mind with superhero origins apparently.

>>90664519
>DC at least seems like they respect their fans.
Eeeeh right now they're beating the crap out of Marvel, yeah. Not so good back when they pushed Nu52.

>>90664574
>>90671764
>>90662858
They completely ruined the happy ending of the original story, didn't they. And people don't get why I hated that movie.

>>90664970
Wasn't his memory also wiped AFTER WW2?