I feel like this shits all over Jack Kirby's and Neil

>>90267386
Good. Fuck Neil Gaiman.

>>90267386
>>90267581
How so Anon?

Everything Morrison does shits over other people's work.

>>90267386

Yeah, he didn't give their work places of honor or anything!

>>90267386
It all seems like it can fit together to me. Also I think it elevates Kirby by making there only be one true version of the New Gods who persist throughout the multiverse, especially true to Kirby's Darkseid.

>After Kirby and before Morrison


New Gods are just powerful aliens. Darksied and Orion constantly job. The Endless are the top dogs and Mike Carey's ghost girl angel daughter of Michael waifu is the one in charge of everything.

Obnoxious mall goths jerk it to how much more powerful their favorite characters are to the more "comic book" characters of the DC cosmos.

The Source Wall is just the wall between worlds.

>After Morrison

Yahweh and the Endless are brought down to the same level as other gods. New Gods are brought up a significant level because the Source is once again THE SOURCE and not a giant rock monster that Mike Carey's Lucifer stands on, and only the New Gods really understand it. The Source Wall now encompasses EVERYTHING.

>Basically

Kirby stuff went up, Gaiman shit went down.

And all was right with the world.

>>90268179
Starlin and Gaiman both had their " I'll do right where Kirby went wrong" moments. For Starlin it was Cosmic Odyssey and Gaiman it was Eternals

>>90267386
>Creates an ordered, comprehensive cosmology out of the writings of Gardner Fox, Jack Kirby, Warren Ellis, Mike Carey, Otto Binder, Marv Wolfman Neil Gaiman, and his own contributions

>Synthesizes different, contradictory cosmologies into a stable bubble.

>This is shitting on them

What did OP mean by this?

>>90268317
Vertigo fags are butthurt Lucifer, Endless and God are on the same powerlevel as Darseid and Highfather.

>>90268179
>>90267386

I like the Endless proceeding over the Gods because Morpheus said God's come through his realm, the Dreaming, and into the mortal world.

So it encompasses/implies this notion of mortals making up their own gods and believing them until the come into the world.

It's more interesting than "GODS ARE ALIENS". Getting sick of that.

>>90268025

This too, because the multiverse is such a mind warping concept it begs those questions "are there different versions of the different god like beings and gods or whatever in each one or are the same consist consciousness in each one?"

>>90268179
>Morrison is the only guy who was portraying the new gods as actual gods.
Bullshit. Morrisonfags I love that scottish loon as much the next guy but that shitnsimply sont

>>90268381
their placement in the cosmological map has nothing to do with powerlevels

also powerlevel arguments are retarded

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And where does this guy fit into everything? He's obviously Time. I like him.

>>90268179
>Yahweh is brought down to the level of other gods.
I'm sure that's exactly what an old jew like Jack Kirby wanted.

>>90268507
>also powerlevel arguments are retarded
Like I said, Vertigo fags are butthurt retard babies mad their precious Lucifer isn't top powerlevel anymore.

>>90267581
How's it feel, anon? To be a BITCH?

>>90267386
I feel like it doesn't.

>>90268179

You make some solid, excellent points. However, Gaiman indicated that the Endless were not, per se, gods but rather, in many respects, representations of things. For example, unlike nearly every single religion on the planet, he did not create an Earth mother, or a Sky/Earth division, or a mother/father of a pantheon.

Rather, IMHO, I think he wanted to do his thing, about writers, dreamers, about stories and story-tellers, and Dream/Sandman was his focus, but he had to fit it into a larger story.

Many of the Endless aren't really designed as deities - people wouldn't really worship the majority of them, nor really fear them - fearing death is a different type of thing from fearing the devil or being fearful to say piss off Zeus or not pay proper respect to Vishnu, etc.

>>90268523
I don't think Time and Space have specific realms that can be accessed by anyone other than the Endless, unlike the Endless

>>90268581
>a mother/father of a pantheon
until Overture, anyway

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>>90268381
>Years of "lol Lucifer could butt rape the entire 4th world"
>Years of Mike Carey's angel mary sue being the true secret power behind the DC universe
>Years of the Source being a fucking rock monster behind the Source Wall

Suck it all the way down Vertigo fags. Suck it all the way down.

>>90268581
>The Endless weren't gods

Oh get off it. That was Gaiman wanking his own creations. There's been gods of death and dream and madness and despair and destruction.

"The Endless are SUPER-gods" was Gaiman wanting to have the biggest and bestest toys in the DC sandbox.

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>>90268179
Exclusive footage of the Source wall failing to be an obstacle for Lucifer

>>90268683
I don't think he's going outside the Source Wall here, just going next to it

>>90268529
>What an Old Jew like Kirby would have wanted

God was THE SOURCE for Kirby. It's why THE SOURCE is the god-behind-gods that outlives gods, creates them, and guides them.

It communicates through a flaming hand writing on the Source Wall and its prophet is Izaya.

So his Yahweh was THE SOURCE, not an angel girl named Elaine and not a fat English man in a bowler hat.

>>90268381
>>90268507

Yeah it's not so much about powerlevel it's about PURPOSE. The Endless have a purpose, they have domains, responsibilities, roles they place. It's like their just conscious entities that control parts of the universe... For whatever reason, to give conscious entities some control over and communication with the non-consciousness factors around them?

What's Darkseid and High Father's purpose exactly? I don't know. Anti-Life? But then Darkseid's treated like some general bad dictator alien guy and not some necessary vital part of the universe itself.

That's where my problems lie.

>>90268720
You are right, probably not there, but the series does end with him fucking off into the Void

>>90268755
well he did get a letter of passage from The Source itself

>>90268683
The Source is no longer a stupid Rock Monster to job for Lucifer. It's once again the end-all-be-all.

The years of sucking Vertigo dick are over.

>>90268683
Lucifer is weaker than Darkseid. Accept it.

>>90268755
He came back. The Presence also returned maddened and corrupted not able to handle the true power out there too.

>>90268744
I think Kirby would appreciate Mike Carey's original story more than Morrison's fanboy lovesong. I think you guys who champion New gods as the platonic ideal gods are forgetting that Kirby was being metaphorical and that this is a space opera and not a fuckong gospel.

>>90268744
Elaine and English Man are the Presence, not the Source

>>90268823
Who gives a damn about power levels?

What I'm getting from this thread is that someone really does not like the Vertigo universe. Was it because their stories started to bleed into main line DCU, or just because you have never liked them at all?

>>90268794
Why are you hating on the objectively better comics anon?

>>90268904
You the person trying to hype up your special snowflake with pictures of him winning big fights.

>>90268904
capeshitters

>>90268751
>What's their purpose exactly?

1. They're self-aware gods. They understand that Monitor-Mind (what they call the source) exists and know how to talk to it and harness its will and power with mother boxes.

2. They're modern gods both in the since that they're self-aware about being gods (they know there were gods before them and will be gods after them) and know that lower lifeforms can rise to the level of gods (why Earth is destined to become the 5th world).

3.While gods typically don't use technology and just will things to happen the New Gods do use technology to harness source power (mother boxes) and travel to lower realities (boom tubes).

4. They're embodiment of modern ideas like other pantheons embody pre-modern ideas. Izaya is god of prophets, Metron god of scientists, Orion god of soldiers, Mr. Miracle god of escape, Darksied god of fascism.

>>90268581
>>90268619

Yeah see... >>90268523

The "parents" really threw everything into a mix in my opinion. It's always the same with gods in reality. The god was born from another god... okay where did that god come from? It's never ending and usually that's because writers don't want to betray their own beliefs and religions.

For me, as an atheist who's an aspiring comic book writer and who's making their own super universe this presents an opportunity for me to do away with this cycle because I'm not afraid to create a universe without a central consciousness preceding over it and making it. There is a creative freedom there, I believe.

But enough about me. I was just pointing out how writing mythologies ends up in writing oneself into a metaphysical conundrum.

>>90268929
Please show me the pictures in this thread that show Lucifer winning a fight.
Shouldn't be hard to find since there are only 4 images in this thread.

>>90268861
Are you referring to the 2015 series? I only read the first trade of that, and frankly got too angry about how many things they were getting wrong to continue

>>90268882
>I think Jack Kirby would appreciate his interpretation of God being a big rock Monster Lucifer stands on while Carey makes God to be a big uncaring incompetent Englishman who gives his power away to a mary sue

Sure. Whatever makes you feel better.

>>90268895
Who is in the Silver City far below the Source Wall.

>>90268025
>>90268437
These. If anything, this is INCREDIBLY respectful towards Kirby and Gaiman, and is easily the best explanation of concepts like the Endless and the New Gods co-existing in the same reality. Those things used to fit awkwardly but Morrison made it work. It's something that's finally given the New Gods the status that they actually deserve.

>>90268975
Cry more.

>>90268963
I see it as: if the Endless first came into being with life, then obviously there had to be something there before them. Time and Space being the Endless' parents is just a literalization of time and space as metaphysical concepts predating stuff like death and destiny by default

although stars sapient beings and dreaming and all that jazz sort of muddies that.

>>90268966
Hell, I recently re-read the series and can only think of two actual fights that Lucifer was directly involved in and could be considered "powerlevel" bragging: Michael, when infected with Fenris blood, and against Fenris himself. Lucifer's duel in Hell was won via using loopholes

>>90269025
>Who is in the Silver City far below the Source Wall.
The Presence.

>>90267386
WHAT IS THE HEAVEN WORLD THOUGH

FUCK

TELL US WHAT THE QUESTION MARKS ARE MORRISON YOU SCOTTISH FUCK

>>90269077
one of them was revealed the recent Multiplicity arc of Superman

I think it was Punisher-Earth

>>90269077
>WHAT IS THE HEAVEN WORLD THOUGH

It's Lucifer's Creation from the Mike Carey series. The one with the centaur people.

>>90268975
>>90268861
>Lucifer and the Presence couldn't handle the higher reality and true power

THE SHAME TRAIN CONTINUES CHOO CHOO

>>90269111
Wouldn't that be more likely to be the hell world?

>>90269077
Are you talking about the Convergence place opposite the wonderworld?

>>90269144
Remember it was technically made out of exploded Michael that Lucifer just shaped.

>>90269025
I think Jack Kirby would be smart enough to disconnect his take of yahweh from works that are completely unrelated to his.

>>90269161
The one that the line through Heaven leads to.

>>90269172
But it's still a creation of Lucifer. And if the Kamandi world is any clue, being connected to the bubble means that the "gods" from that bubble interfere directly. Why would God interfere directly with Lucifer's creation?

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>>90269144
Gaiman and Carey's Lucifer was a character who was not at all pleased with him watching over Hell. He accepted ruling Hell because he would be removed from the Grand Design of the Presence, but learned over time that Hell was simply the furthest point away from the Silver city and that Lucifer had fallen for predestination

>>90269209
Earth 49? Maybe some writter will say somesay.

>>90269183
>Completely unrelated to his

It shows the Source as a big silent rock monster that jobs to Lucifer.

How is that unrelated?

>>90269209
>Why would God interfere directly with Lucifer's creation?

That would be an interesting story to see. Lucifer basically abandoned his creation, so wouldn't it gravitate toward the Silver City seeing as how it's made out of angel?

It would be interesting to see what would happen to an abandoned paradise cosmos floating out in the bleed.

>>90269248
I don't understand what this has to do with what we're talking about.

>>90269290
>jobs
I must've missed the part where they fought because it's not there

also I'm pretty sure the rock monster is the Aleph, not the Source

>>90269295
Lucifer would not (and did not) plan a creation made to resemble Hell, because he eventually had great disdain for it. Given that the creation that he had was made out of angelic power, it is more likely that it would be Heavenworld.

In all likelihood, those are just two things that Morrison has plans for

>>90269401
Well no, the planet wouldn't have to resemble hell; Kamandi's world looks nothing like New Genesis. It would just mean that Hell could influence it.

>>90267386
Why does it say the land of Fairy is part of the Dreaming, I thought it was part of Hell?

>>90268751
Darkseid is the embodiment of tyranny.

>>90271019
Looks like you are an idiot who thought incorrect things. Question now is are you the kind of idiot that will continue thinking the same thing after being told you thought wrong or the kind of idiot that will change what you think?

>>90268683
>>90268720
>>90268744
The way I imagine it is that The Source sees through the eyes of those embedded in The Source Wall and watches everything in the Multiverse. The Monitor-mind made The Source, The Source made The Presence/God/Yahweh, and Yahweh made everything else.

>>90271166
Fuck off. It says in The Books of Magic that Fairie is a part of Hell given to the Fair Folk by Lucifer.

>>90271513
Looks like you're the first kind of idiot.

>>90271513
I'm pretty sure Books of Magic also had Oberon and Titania permananently severing the connection between Faerie and Hell

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>>90269071
>>90269071
>>90271362

And here is another thing about these topics that bothers me.

NO ONE FLESHES OUT THE AFTERLIFE.

So we have these "gods" who are super powered aliens but what about the part of the concept of gods that determines what happens to souls and spirits and after lives? Sometimes it's handled and sometimes it's not. Think about how Marvel has "Vahalla" but it's just a magical realm, not a place souls go to when they die. It's all so... Muddled.

Frankly since the one thing they all seem to agree on is the Silver City I'd just keep writing about that. All super heroes souls go to the Silver City after they die since usually they're worthy of it.

>>90271923
we know if you're a shitheel you go to Hell

from the bits and pieces we've gotten, it seems like if you're not a shitheel you get to choose your own afterlife

>>90271923
Doesn't Death say a few things about souls tending to end up wherever they expect to be ending up? like, the only reason so many souls end up in hell is because so many people think they're going there.

>>90271993
actually wait nevermind we're told multiple times that the people in hell are there by choice/because they think they deserve it, so it's CYOA across the board

>>90271923
>>90271993

Far as I understand, the afterlife is where you believe you go, unless someone acts in a way to take your soul. So this means people can reincarnate if that is what they believe; this is what happens to Batman at the end of "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader?", since Batman can't really imagine himself as resting... though this is slightly different in that he becomes a different Bruce Wayne rather than the standard "born as someone else".

Everyone eventually goes to Death, though, and she'll be the last one standing. Then she'll leave and... who knows what happens next.

>>90272060
If Venditti is to go by, the next universe starts.

>>90268619

I haven't read that yet.

>>90268682
>There's been gods of death and dream and madness and despair and destruction

You must have never taken any Western Civilization or mythology or religion courses. The Romans even had household gods so that's not really what we're talking about. Religions in general are very similar, particular those than were not about ONE god. And the MAIN gods did not deal with something like MADNESS or DESPAIR as their own and singular rationale or purpose. And when DESTRUCTION is a pantheonic god, it represents finality, or final destruction of civilization, either as part of a cycle (as with Shiva or Kalki).

>>90268751
>>90268958

I'm not sure Kirby gave it a lot of thought when he designed them. So you would think that when other folks wrote them or used them they would have done more than made them plot devices (cough cough The Cereal King) and actually clarified some of these issues. For the purposes of this conversation, they are Gods and their purpose is as specific as Kirby intended (and that has been amplified). It's unfortunately not a well-developed mythology in a true religious historical context might wish.

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Could Battler deny and erase every magic and divine being in DC?

>>90271923
When the New Gods die they return to the Source and get reborn. The same probably happens to the other gods as well. Their chief godhead form is indestructible, but when their incarnations die the Source returns them to the godhead to incarnate again. Gods are living stories told again and again.

For a human you seem to go to whatever afterlife you believe you deserve. Swedenborg rules basically.

If you die in a cosmic sort of way like through a retcon you end up in Limbo until someone remembers you.

>>90272060
>Who knows what happens next

Superman answered that in Final Crisis.
A happy ending

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Tiers aren't the same thing as powerlevels, you dumb ass insecure plebs.

Many characters punch above/below their tiers.

Most obvious being Superman. Wrecks New Gods and most Angels alike, despite being a whole tier below them. Hell, he's capable of going up against beings from the Monitor sphere and not getting instantly fucked.

Lucifer, for all you asscreamed faggots, is in the same boat. He comfortably shits on everything else in his tier and probably most things above (Maybe Mandrakk is an exception. Maybe.)

All you who equate station to powerlevel need to go stab a knife into a power socket. You're being babies.

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>>90268823

>>90273868
>my favorite character is strongest and can beat all other characters
You are one of the most pathetic posters on /co/.

>>90274038
what the hell are you talking about?

Everything I said is factually correct.

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>>90274038

>>90273868

I don't like your mean spirited post but

>All you who equate station to powerlevel need to go stab a knife into a power socket.

That's the point I was trying to make earlier when I was talking about purpose. Station is a good term for it too. There is a difference between "i have power over this stuff" and "I'm powerful in the sense that power means strength."

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>>90274593
>I don't like your mean spirited post
Not that anon, but I suggest you go back to plebbit. This ain't your safe space echo chamber, mate.

>>90274593
>There is a difference between "i have power over this stuff" and "I'm powerful in the sense that power means strength."

Yup this. exactly what I was saying.

>>90267386
Gaiman should shut up and write stories that he's actually good at (ie mystic shit with quirky dialog and 60s-90s popculture references). Everything else he does seems forced and cringy