What was the turning point? What was the exact moment that made

File: you're a slut OP.gif (2MB, 400x170px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 400x170px

>>90260106
What "hellhole"? MARVEL still sells better than D.C. and every other comic book company in the US.

>>90260106
When they decided constant events and relaunches are the way to sell books.

>>90260106
Civil War. It was the point when Marvel decided it was better to be "edgy" and "modern" where you get to re-write an entire character's backstory and personality on an issue by issue basis.

It saved Marvel and greatly boosted their popularity but every single thing since then has been riding on the tails of a dumb fluke and its starting to backfire.

>>90260106
The original Secret Wars. They haven't been the same ever since.

>>90260106
Either when the deal with Didney went public (mostly because now they had to start making money to make The Mouse happy, and shitting out event after event and #1 after #1 was the best way to do it on quick notice) or when Alonso, the biggest faggot in the comic industry, became EiC, and his buttbuddy Brevoort, the second biggest faggot in the comic industry, became his right hand.

File: NickFury2-IM.png (676KB, 1920x800px) Image search: [Google]

676KB, 1920x800px

Right here.

>>90260106
Why is Stevonnie the header image of a marvel thread?

>>90260629
...black Nick Fury or the start of the MCU?

File: rage.png (17KB, 374x208px) Image search: [Google]

17KB, 374x208px

>>90260106
The death of Ultimate Peter the rise of Ultimate Miles. Everything could be blamed on Bendis because fuck Bendis.

>>90260106
Avengers Disassembled, it was the first in a long line of retarded events.

Thors hammer being stolen by the coward Jane Foster

File: oakshually.jpg (61KB, 468x349px) Image search: [Google]

61KB, 468x349px

>>90260984

This, in my casual opinion

File: snakeEats.jpg (24KB, 640x480px) Image search: [Google]

24KB, 640x480px

Comics have never gone through phases before! Every book is the exact same and it always has been! There are no such things as trends or popularity spikes in the readership markets! The 90's were the same as the 80's which were the exact same as the 70's which were the exact same as the 60's. Its only now that Marvel has changed anything at all about their company. COMICS HAVE NEVER CHANGED AT ALL IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD!!!! They will never alter the course of their line up ever again!!!!!!!! The company has never hit lows until now!! They are DOOMED! DOOOOOOOOMMMED!

>>90260106
One more day

>>90260106
http://comicsbulletin.com/108503-2/

>>90260106

>>90261331 This guy knows what's up.

>>90261292
Wow, what an excellent strawman you've built yourself there!

>>90261331
>>90261408
I feel like One More Day is a scapegoat. Though, it does lead to the dumber Peter Parker.

Secret Wars in 1984.

File: 1478571972448.jpg (18KB, 286x347px) Image search: [Google]

18KB, 286x347px

>>90260227
just because you can put out more shit than everybody else doesn't mean what you sell isn't shit

>>90261598
I chose it because it showed that Marvel was ready and willing to throw out years of development in order to make things fit what they think (for whatever fucking reason) audiences want. That's the same basic issue we're facing now.

In a pre-rebirth world we could be having this exact same conversation about DC, btw.

>>90260106
>What was the turning point?

Avengers vs X-men


Someone even try to disagree with me

>>90261699
I feel like Bendis with Avengers Disassembled was that moment, to be honest. The "these characters are lame, these characters are cool" attitude soured a lot of Marvel.

>>90261757
Damn...you're right. AvX was the moment that all the X-Men's momentum in their stories was eradicated just to make the Avengers look good. That was the moment where the shades of grey Cyclops and Emma Frost had were erased so they could be seen as bad guys. Everything the X-Men were working for was thrown away for Bendis Avengers.

File: 2900863-mettle[1].png (1MB, 657x1004px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 657x1004px

My personal moment was this.

Oh and Hopeless still getting regular work after Avengers Arena finished

>>90261953
I felt that Disassembled was just a bad event that could be recovered from, while OMD has proved to be a lasting paradigm shift for Marvel's most popular character. AND it was a bad event.

>>90262002
I'm more mad that people actively praise this series.

File: 1446659090930.gif (2MB, 643x539px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 643x539px

>>90262002
>tfw I just finished Avengers Academy and this pain is still fresh

>>90262100
if it's any consolation, they're all the same people that praised Squirrel Girl, Mockingbird, and a lot of other shit comics

>>90262216
True, but those books are likely to comeback more than AA characters.

File: 1405381979150.png (680KB, 744x580px) Image search: [Google]

680KB, 744x580px

There's a lot of major turning points.

You could blame Grant Morrison's X-Men run for setting the table of writers writing whatever they want, fuck the consequences. You could blame Bendis and Millar taking the superstar status and turning everything into what they think is cool. You could blame Quesada for using House of M and One More Day to fix things that didn't need fixing. You could blame Millar and Civil War for making people think social commentary more important (and more superficial). You could blame accountants for looking at Civil War sales and saying, "Holy shit, do this every year." You could blame SYNERGY.

I guess it depends on what your main beef is.

>>90261685
t. salty sore loser

MARVEL has been #1 since the 60's. Just accept your reality, number two.

Hydra Cap was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Fans wanted Steve back and as Cap. Instead, he got turned Nazi Cap cause Nick Spencer was pissy that he was getting rightfully shitted on for turning Sam's book into a SJW soap box of the worse kind.

Turning Steve into a Nazi pissed so many people off, as far as being a direct fuck you, that fans just said "fuck it" and waked away from Marvel for good.

Everything else Marvel was doing (Whor, Carol and the Inhumans being shoved down fans throats, the shitting on the X-Men from high above, the continued never ending dumpster fire that the Spider-Man franchise has been since OMD, the SJW bullshit), all of this culminated in the Hydra Cap thing being the straw that broke the camel's back.

Civil War 2 coming directly after the Hydra Cap reveal and being a total and complete flop of a crossover pretty much ensured that Marvel couldn't ignore things this time.

File: 358040.jpg (38KB, 640x480px) Image search: [Google]

38KB, 640x480px

>>90260106

>>90261408
Thanks! I spent about 20 minutes preparing the rough draft

>>90260984
The Ultimate Universe in general is the problem, really. It had a massive negative impact on the main universe, and combined with Civil War and everything that came with it, it fucked everything beyond repair.

>>90262348
>Turning Steve into a Nazi pissed so many people off, as far as being a direct fuck you, that fans just said "fuck it" and waked away from Marvel for good.
Yeah, I don't think so.

>>90262395
If the Ultimate universe and Civil War is the problem, then it all leads back to Mark Millar.

>>90262420
Fuck off Nick.

Hell, Rich Johnston has published MULTIPLE letters from comic shop owners who say POINT BLANK that Hydra Cap was the tipping point in terms of fans walking the fuck away from Marvel and refusing to buy their books.

>>90261292
Marvel has been shit for literally 25 years.

>>90262519
I don't believe that, because anyone who's not a retard realizes it's just a fucking story arc. No one "walked the fuck away" from Marvel when they did Superior Iron Man, or even Superior Spider-Man. No one walked away from DC when they did Azrael.

Also the sales of Captain America skyrocketed the issue after the reveal.

>>90260227
but that's wrong

>>90262624
>or even Superior Spider-Man

I did.

>>90262519
I think it's a combination of Civil War 2 and Hydra Cap.

Hydra Cap was the inciting event but Civil War 2 was the moment where the newbie base that Marvel was willing to kill off their longtime fan over, basically walked away if not was shown to be too weak in number and fickle to fully replace the older fans.

It doesn't help that it also continued to diminish Bendis' false claim of being a sales draw and pretty much embodied all of the hate people had for Carol and the Inhumans in one major storyline.

>>90260106
Bendis. Duh.

>>90262624
Again, shut the fuck up Nick.

Sales did not go up and now both Steve and Sam's books are basically two of Marvel's biggest sales disasters.

Fuck, they had to move the reveal that Cap had his history rewritten to the second issue to try and curtail a bigger sales drop, not to mention that we had three/four filler issues pushed in Sam's book because BLM started murdering policemen and you were shilling an anti-police storyline full of spoiled daddy's boy SJW virtue signalling about how police are evil incarnate.

>>90260106
>What was the turning point?
Secret Wars I, Secret Wars II, or X-factor #1. Either way, it'd be around 85~86.

>>90260442
>It was the point when Marvel decided it was better to be "edgy" and "modern"
But that was Ultimates 1, not Civil War.

>>90262624
Don't know if you are Nick Spencer but I should note that you are still the idiot who rage quit DC and continue to shit on them (cause they are killing Marvel in the sales department) because your vanity project Thunder Agents book flopped and you thought you were too pretty to write Supergirl, a book that at the time was a fan favorite.

>>90262001
If you're going to base "Marvel going to shit" on "when the X-men went to shit and had everything they were working towards thrown out the window" then that'd be X-factor #1 in 1985. That issue single-handedly killed the X-men as a franchise and replaced it with a lifeless husk of its former self.

File: Jim Shooter.jpg (29KB, 300x377px) Image search: [Google]

29KB, 300x377px

It was the day "Big Shooter" got let go from Marvel. Without him running the ship Marvel got slowly overrun with queers and lazy bums that had no respect for deadlines

>>90260106
>those abs
How can /co/ not like this?

>>90262348
>Hydra Cap was the straw that broke the camel's back.
Literally only tumblr-casuals and MCU shills have any problem with Captain Hydra and their opinions don't matter because they don't buy comics in the first place.

>>90262755
Why are you lieing? Maybe stick to tumblr. I'm sure they'd be more down with swallowing your alternative facts.

>>90262908
No, that would be 1998 when Marvel fired Joe Kelly/Steve Seagle.

X-Fags were in denial about the soulless nature of the franchise until Seagle/Kelly got fired and the franchise's fanbase never really recovered from that

>>90262001
>thrown away for Bendis Avengers
Yup. And then what happened?


Bendis went to X-men

>>90263047
And then Hickman took over Avengers which...was good, but there were a lot of plot things that made the Avengers unlikable. Beating up Starbrand was one of them.

>>90262942
>It was the day "Big Shooter" got let go from Marvel
Shooter was responsible for:
>driving away Marvel's top talent
>starting Marvel on the Event-model road that has directly led to the problems we have today
>destroying the X-men franchise

The last few years of Shooter's tenure as Marvel's EiC were almost directly responsible for most of the problems we have today.

>>90263010
Cap Steve Rogers did have major delays following the first coupe of issues.

Also, Rich Johnson is so busy sucking dick at Marvel that he probably would have zero problem spiking any and all stories about Marvel ordering changes to Steve's book and the Americop storyline due to backlash and fears of supporting the murder of policemen.

>>90263018
But that's the thing, it was already soulless by that point. What killed its soul was X-factor #1. It just took a decade and a half for x-fags to realise it.

>>90260106
when sana amanat was put in charge of the company and she started hiring literal bloggers to write their comics and literal webcomic artists to draw them

>>90263077
>Rich Johnson is so busy sucking dick at Marvel
Is this a fucking joke? Rich has made a fucking career out of making clickbait articles revolving around pissing on Marvel. How far up your own ass do you have to be to think that he's somehow a Marvel shill? He's the literal opposite.

>>90261685
I need sauce on this.

>>90263047
The problem with AvX wasn't the Avengers being in the right, it was that they had ZERO clue what to do in the aftermath.

Uncanny Avengers got fucked over by them hiring a lazy hack to draw the first couple of issues, resulting in delays that made it utterly irrelevant to the greater Marvel Universe. Meanwhile, any sort of build-up Bendis had towards the X-Men got revealed to be bullshit smoke and mirrors with Battle of the Atom, the aftermath showing that Bendis was only concerned about stealing Kitty from the franchise, doing X-Men XOvers to boost the failing sales of his other books (Miles' book and the GOTG), with the bullshit "Iceman is gay" thing being shoved into the final issues so Bendis could prevent whoever followed him from ignoring his run entirely.

>>90263117
This. Making Sana Amanat the Editor-in-Chief was bad enough, but once they made her the CEO all hell broke loose.

>>90262908
>But that was Ultimates 1, not Civil War.
What was X-Factor 1?

>>90263185
>Avengers being in the right

I'm not sure we read the same event

Editorial threw everything and the sink at the x-men to try and make them look like the bad guys, and they only made the Avengers look more like faggots.

>>90263157
Rich refused to run anything critical of Brand New Day until around two years ago. Either because Slott was leaking him shit on the downlow or because of the rumor that Quesada took part of a well publicized bribe Rich offered where he promised to spike a story of the Big Two's choice if they made a charity donation to a cause of Rich's choosing.

Also, have you fucking read Bleeding Cool lately? Rich realized he was losing clicks to SJW comic sites and started shiling SJW Marvel books like crazy. The only reason he's even acknowledging Marvel fucked up big is that retailers who he talks to for trends and shit flat out are telling the bugger that Marvel's SJW crap is driving away the customers in droves and DC killing the SJW pandering relaunch DCYoung and not even HIDING the fact that they realized that they fucked up chasing the SJW and all but got on bended knee begging old school fans to come back, right down to killing Superbro and Nu52 Lois Lane, and bringing back Married Superman/Lois and Wally fucking West.

Did they really make the new cap a black woman?

>>90263217
Brought Jean Grey back and basically began the Scott Summers hate train by way of having Scott tell his wife Maddie to fuck off and abandoned her and their son to chase after Jean.

>>90263340

The X-Men were in the wrong because they had spent several years of story predicting Hope was going to kill millions. And Scott truly did not care one iota about how deadly the Phoenix was or it's history of causing death and destruction and how the only one who was able to successfully harness it (Rachel) was rendered brain dead for several months because of it.

As Havok stated in Uncanny Avengers: Scott knew the Phoenix was uncontrollable and deadly, yet STILL decided to ignore all previous experience in dealing with it for the slim chance it would not end with Bishop's doomsday scenario where Hope goes Dark Phoenix and kills millions.

>>90263427
All to pander to silver age nostalgiafags who wanted the O5 back despite silver age X-men being shit that most people didn't give a single fuck. It wasn't until Claremont came on that the X-men became good, and it became good on the back of Claremont wanting the X-men franchise to be generational with new generations of mutants replacing the older ones as each generation retires over time with lasting consequences.

X-factor #1 did all of the following in one issue:
>brought back the worst X-men team at the expense of the one that people actually cared about and set the precedent for "original' X-men being more important than new X-men
>brought Beast back into the fold as an X-men-only character despite being at his best when he was an Avenger
>ruined Cyclops' character by having him abandon his wife and child the second he finds out Jean is back
>ruined Dark Phoenix Saga, arguable the all-time greatest X-men story, to bring Jean back
>gave a giant fuck you to Chris Claremont, the man who reinvented the X-men
>threw out the X-men's generational aspect which has led to the "each next generation of x-men just becomes cannon fodder to be killed off in events"
>presented Iceman and Angel, two of the least interesting mutants, as core super-important mutants at the expense of genuinely interesting mutants
>began the X-spinoff hell that created the 90s

>>90263386
I tend to think that Rich is only covering the huge backlash against SJW Marvel because, quite frankly, all of the other websites are purposely burying the story if not approaching it from the angle of "fuck those filthy nerds!" fanboy bashing.

Even then, he's willingly pushing the narrative Spencer and his ilk are shilling that DC Rebirth isn't a hit. But yeah, I would assume the comic shops that he regularly talks to for boots on the ground sales information are making it impossible for him to bury the story like Comic Alliance and the Mary Sue.

>>90263386
>have you fucking read Bleeding Cool lately?
>reading BleedingCuck
>ever
Sorry, Rich but no I'm not going to give your trash a read.

>>90263417
That's Ms America not Captain America.

She was a creation of Keiron Gillen for his Young Avengers run, after he was banned from using Patriot in the book.

>>90261757
I'm in agreement with this.

This was where they went full retard, also the same time Carol died, and was replaced by that fake.

>>90263675
>She was a creation of Keiron Gillen for his Young Avengers run
Gillen didn't create MAC. Joe Casey and Nick Dragotta did for their Vengeance mini-series.

>>90263715
And yet the three years that proceeded AvX were better than the three years that preceeded it for everyone but the X-men.

>>90263621
The spin-off hell actually happened earlier with New Mutants.

X-Factor actually got to be good/justify it's existence once Bob Layton (who was clearly phoning it in) left and Louis Simonson took over. It gave us the X-Factor kids (Rictor, Skids, Rusty Collins, Boom Boom, Leech, and Artie), Apocalypse, ARCHANGEL, and the PAD run.

>>90263769
>The spin-off hell actually happened earlier with New Mutants.
Thing is that New Mutants fed into the generational aspect that Claremont was building the X-men on. The New Mutants were the next generation that would have graduated into becoming the X-men. X-factor was the antithesis of that. It was "fuck the next generation, here's the ORIGINAL X-men back!"

Yes, X-factor brought us some good things which is why people tend not to specify X-factor as a whole, because the DAMAGE that X-factor caused was almost entirely done with the first issue. What came later doesn't change the fact that it's built on a foundation that directly led to the end of the X-men.

>>90262301
I think that all is a factor. Sum grater than the whole and all that.
I think something we also forget is that comics have become a pyrrhic where numbers are such a mess and that starvation to be a relevant media again is strong.

File: 65004707.jpg (201KB, 500x500px) Image search: [Google]

201KB, 500x500px

>>90262755
http://www.newsarama.com/29574-first-captain-america-was-a-hydra-agent-now-he-s-a-sell-out.html
https://www.comicbookmovie.com/comics/comics-controversial-captain-america-steve-rogers-1-sells-out-a142283
are we done here?

>>90263536

Oh my god this bullshit again

You're wrong and possibly retardadly wrong. We established this shit well and long ago back when it came out, it was dreadful, but it was done, and I am not blowing my night on it

>b-b-but muh mouthpiece character told scott something

Yeah, notice how he tells it, but doesn't show it though?

Ever wonder why the author felt like he *had* to have Alex still bitch about AvX?

Because they were massive faggots to the x-men, readership threw a fucking fit, and still needed to have this pandering bullshit strawman equivalent of 2016's "This is for saying "feminist" like it's a four letter woooooord" crap


You're wrong, your fun is wrong, your brain is wrong

Deal with it

Currently? Avengers Disassembled. I mean we got some good but holy shit did Bendis get the ball rolling.

>>90263768
Explain.

>>90263768

mostly because the cancer that pervaded everyone but x-men all jumped ship to the x-men, leaving sloppy leftovers for other writers to salvage, the corpse of the mutant universe ultimately not buying enough time for them to build up as fast as the faggotry could destroy the x-men, leaving us with an overall homogenous shit

File: 2164509-new_avengers_25.jpg (425KB, 618x950px) Image search: [Google]

425KB, 618x950px

>>90263185

the worst things about Avengers vs X-Men is that it destroyed Phoenix lore

-The Phoenix doesnt destroy planets just because, for shits and giggles, Jean destroyed Star (which ended up killing the people of a planet which orbited that star) because she had been corrupted, mind raped.
-It is possible to be a good healthy Phoenix host for years, like Rachel, or Jean when she died definitely in Morrison's run. They didnt ask for Rachels help when the Phoenix was coming.
-You dont need to practice kung fu and yoga and marial arts in the tibet with Iron Fist to be a good Phoenix Host.

the story was plain bad. Bendis himself said he invented that thing of Hope needing to practice Kung Fu to control the Phoenix because he couldnt think of a good way to get the Avengers involved in the event.

pic related was my, fuck this shit, moment

>>90264336
What's there to explain?

File: Chrono-trigger.jpg (9KB, 300x225px) Image search: [Google]

9KB, 300x225px

>>90260106
>hellhole it is in now
>now
Infinity Gauntlet created 4 shameless spin offs in the 90s up that was basically trying to catch the lighting twice. They were all hot garbage
Spider-man Clone Saga took what was suppose to be a 4 issue story and drag it on to be a 3 year nightmare across 4+ books and 32+ issues.
Everything in the Ultimates baring the first Ultimates and most of Ultimate Spider-man
Dissembled
House of M
Civil War

They have been a hellhole for nearly 3 decades and counting. What killed them was from within by the owners using it for other means, the greed for profits, and the complete disconnect of understanding what kept people buying comic books.
We only pay attention now because we have grown up and this isn't out childhood shit, it's "new" shit.

>>90260106
Gillen's Young Avengers in my opinion. There is no real marker, but that was one of the first books where social justice bullshit took the driver seat from Superhero action. It was by a major writer and artist, and a pretty major title.

>>90264424
>-You dont need to practice kung fu and yoga and marial arts in the tibet with Iron Fist to be a good Phoenix Host.

Over a weekend

Practice kung fu and yoga over a weekend.

>>90264424

The mental gymnastics of AvX is astonishing. I mean WHY? The story should have been:

>Quasar: Oh Damn.....better warn Cap!
>Cap: Logan, just a got a deep space warning from Quasar, the Phoenix is coming to Earth.
>Logan: Hey, Slim, we got some--
>Cyclops: Phoenix Trouble? Yeah we know we got Rachel here just in case.
>Logan: Mind me bringing the Avengers?
>Cyclops: We'll need all hands on deck. Maybe after this we'll barbecue and kick their butts in baseball.


Then build from there.

>>90264533
How is it better for everyone other than the PC characters who's shit writing results in them being unable do no wrong in the eyes of the public.

If you're a none legacy character life has gotten shittier and shittier with each passing year.

>>90264842
>>Cap: Logan, just a got a deep space warning from Quasar, the Phoenix is coming to Earth.

Reminder: Cap had just pinned a medal of honor on Scott personally, and he went to logan for "Scott dirt" first.
And when Logan of all people accused scott of being pussy mad by Jean (which even just thinking it, is basically taking a long sloppy shit on the entire character of Emma Frost), Cap took it at face value.

>>90265018

Killing off Wolverine is the one right thing Marvel has done in the past 12 years

Civil war.

They have had constant event comics since civil war and they nearly always some group of heroes fighting one another.

>>90265018

Wonderful. Why couldn't it have been Cap & Cyclops just teaming up using awesome tactical shit? The after it's all said and done Steve starts using Scott's moves and visa-versa?

2008.

>>90260106

Secret Wars was literally the end of their universe. It never really got recreated.

It was the Empty Hand

>>90264915
Are you somehow under the impression that AvX happened in 2014? We're comparing the comics of 2008-2011 to the comics of 2011-2014 and the latter period had much better comics than the former. The "PC characters" and "legacy character life" that you're hating on so heavily didn't really become a factor until ~2015.

>>90265018
This and other stuff is why I think that Cap didn't come back to life during Captain America Reborn or whatever it was called.

>>90264637
>Young Avengers
>pretty major title
lol

when they made feminist thor

when Spiderman and Wolverine became Avengers.

They trated the Avengers as a retarded kids who needed 2 gigantic training wheels to ride a bike, or arm floaties to be able to swim.
Wolverine died an Avengersfag uncle tom. I prefer Old Man Logan because of that.

>>90264250
>FIRST ISSUES SALES WENT UP SO YOU'RE WRONG
>(Pay no attention to declining sales numbers after)

>>90264250
The first issue did well do to shock but pretty much sales went straight down with issue #2 onward.

But yeah, you were fucking king for a day but that was just for a day Nick. And you'll go down as the worst fucking Captain America writer ever, even worse than Chuck Austen and the guy who wrote Marvel Knights Captain America.

>>90262942
Shooter killed the industry by moving the big 2 into the direct market

>>90264424
Actually the Phoenix Force did serious damage to Rachel. She lost her long term memory and that was only holding a sliver of the Phoenix. When she possessed the full Phoenix Force in battle with Neron, she got rendered brain dead and it took months for the Phoenix Force to fix her brain and Galactus had to tell the Phoenix Force to leave her because cosmic reasons.

And again, Hope was destined to murder millions and Scott did not give a shit about it. He didn't even care about HOW the Phoenix might fix shit, he just wanted his own Dark Phoenix to scare the world with.

When Ms Marvel was selling well for a few issues when it launched

i want to say before whor showed up. way before she did.

i only read spiderman, totally awesome hulk, and spiderman 2099 occasionally. i cant get into anything else.

they killed off my love for xmen. i dont even recognize the books anymore. dont even care about the movies anymore, not even logan. didnt see apocalypse and dont plan to, not even pirate.


the new daredevil was boring, who cares about that invisible kid.

i just hate that they have a superhero, and then they have the super heroes diverse/multicultural copycat. i dont want to get political, but its like they are preaching to choir, a choir that doesnt even buy books, i understand them wanting to grow their audience, but they did it the wrong way.

i know this seems hypocritical with me liking hulk, but its a good book. same with new superman. they did it the right way.

its like marvel is amy schumer. she use to be okay, back in the days when she was an unknown on Opie and Anthony, but then she somehow got popular and grew this sjw following, and to appease these people/ hold on to them, she changed and shit on her old fans she had before she was "famous", threw them under the bus.


they need their rebirth/ nu52 moment, but they seem to do it every year and its not working

marvel now
marvel nower
marvel nowest

>>90264842
Goofy mental gymnastics to get two sets of heroes fighting each other is pretty much the worst thing of any modern event.
From AvX to Hickman's Bullshit to Civil War 2 and IvX.

It's so fucking DUMB and they keep expecting us to give a damn.

>>90265598
>I have no idea how first issue sales work
Jesus, it's everytime with you newfags.

>>90266005
didnt mean to format like that, im fucking autistic

>>90264842
That ignores the actual story being told though.

Scott demanded only Hope bear the Phoenix

Wolverine knew first hand the Phoenix would kill and that Hope could potentially lose control

Hope herself fucking told Wolverine, point blank, "stab me dead if I look like I'm going to go genocidal"

Scott didn't give a fucking shit; he wanted his Dark Phoenix WMD and didn't even THINK HOW the Phoenix would fix shit. For fuck sake, he was willing to KILL WANDA in Children's Crussade when she tried to restore everyone's powers.

Scott should have fucking worked with Cap but he didn't ever intend to do that. He wanted his Dark Phoenix WMD and regardless of what Hope wanted (and Hope wanted off Scott Summer's hell ride when the Phoenix Five shit happened; bitch would not have ran into Wanda's arms if she didn't see Scott had turned evil). Scott had gone evil and he wanted his WMD no matter what and that meant refusing to work with Cap PERIOD.

File: Marvel Gripe 07-22-1985.png (58KB, 735x858px) Image search: [Google]

58KB, 735x858px

>>90261682
You mean Secret Bores.

Female Thor announcement. That's when Marvel tried their controversies to get views but Tumblr doesn't buy and they hit their original fans too hard. Didn't help that the writing was horrible.

>>90266337
Female Thor sold well for a while, though. Its sales didn't go really bad till the post-SW relaunch.

>>90266020
You're a Marvel intern, aren't you? Blaming others seems to be the MO for Marvel

>>90262599
45 actually.

>>90261292
Stop yelling, you retard.

When Disney (read: Jews) bought Marvel. Open your eyes, /co/

>>90262348
Hydra Cap is fucking great though.

>>90262624
>I don't believe that, because anyone who's not a retard realizes it's just a fucking story arc.

Yeah that was my initial reaction too.

Then you realize that this "one story arc" will actually last 18 months, be used as the pretext for another bloated crossover event, and used to score a dozen cheap and annoying "relevant" political points.

>>90262348
Hydra Steve is literally the only half-decent thing to come out of Civil War II.

>>90263117

dingdingdingding

we have a winner

i've been wondering when the internet was finally going to realize that this woman is the reason for everything really bad that's been happening.

she's a literal propagandist with obama white house visits and fakey-fake "awards" to prove it.

she's marvel's diversity outreach person. so obviously in reality her effect is to destroy the existing readership and replace it with imaginary readers of color

>>90266679
Hydra Cap is a product of Standoff, nothing good came from Civil War II.

Amazing Fantasy #15

>>90264637

Yeah good call.

Overall overall overall I'd say Bendis is the problem (fuck out of here saying that X-Factor was bad, when all '90s X-over-x-posure was so much better than most post-2010 Marvel), but in terms of specifically what is bad right now and truly killing Marvel, I think Gillen started the SJW trend there.

You could say that Bendis was the start of the disease, but then Gillen emerged as the start of the fatal symptom at the end or whatever.

Don't forget Gillen also wanted an "omniamorous" mutant in his Uncanny X-Men run but was denied this by editorial. From 2015 they would have approved and Rich Johnson would be doing PR for the move.

>>90266561
I'd say 30 at most. They were good during the 80s for the most part.

>>90266463
Well it was the only good one not counting Kamilla, which I think might've been ruined by the others.

>>90263117
>she started hiring literal bloggers to write their comics

Do you think that it had anything to do with Gail Simone doing so well over at DC?

>>90260227
>>90262342

>Marvel
>Inflate numbers by overshipping and giving out free issues to scholastic
>"still number 1"

Marvel-fags don't know that shipping numbers =/= sales apparently.

>>90263117
>Sana Amanat
>In charge of the company
What?

>>90260694
I'd fuck both even if one has a dick.

>>90262674
I'll go with this as the tipping point.

>>90263161
Cross reference Cartoon Reality.

>>90260106
All I know is that Secret Wars (2015) was my jumping off point. Once that was done, the Marvel Universe as I knew it was over, and I had a satisfactory conclusion to the entire thing.

>>90268793
Be honest, when did you start """""""reading"""""" comics?

>>90262808
Yes and no, yes they did that in Utimates and the Ultimate line in general, but that was the purpose of the title in the first place and it worked because ti was a seperated universe.
Marvel's mistake was to think that what worked for the Ultimate universe could work on the main one.

On that note, it's just as dumb when people think MAX Punisher is the official interpretation of the character.

>>90260106
Nice abs on her, show more.

>>90270168
Other than being old, how is MAX Punisher different from regular Punisher?

File: see this asshole gets it.jpg (100KB, 402x412px) Image search: [Google]

100KB, 402x412px

>>90260984
>The death of Ultimate Peter the rise of Ultimate Miles.

>>90270404
Is it wrong that I want to pet Pariya's eyebrows against the grain?

>>90270304
He's a complete psycho.
Despite what cucks like Whedon think, 616 Punisher actually has a code of conduct and can still feel empathy for some people.
In simpler terms:
616 Punisher would never hurt a kid.
MAX Punisher shot one.

>>90270454
Go for it. She's starved for affection.

>>90270536
>616 Punisher would never hurt a kid
Funny you should say that when he did during Miller's Daredevil run. The kid even surrendered.

>>90270536
I seem to vaguely recall somewhere that Punisher wouldn't shoot a dog pre-Ennis. Was this true?

>>90270624
>Miller's Daredevil run
I don't read Daredevil but even if I did I wouldn't consider that one bit.
Btw I didn't say that Punisher never did such thing, that's why I brought up Whedon, because he actually did make him (consider) shooting kids. I said that that's OOC.

>>90270663
Dunno, wouldn't surprise me if it was.

>>90270732
>616 Punisher would never hurt a kid
>I didn't say that Punisher never did such a thing
I guess that's true but I'm failing to see a point now.

>>90260984
This is tyne one true answer

>>90270760
>>90270732
>>90270624
>>90270536
The problem with this sort of debate is where do you decide where the character really is a character? Cause people don't think of the early 1939 Batman who kills people as part of Batman (unless you're doing something like Generations or Earth-2 or Morrison's run where he kinda/sorta included it but not making Batman a direct killer). Like when Punisher was introduced they still viewed him as a villain. And that was when you had that one Mantlo Spectacular Spider-Man comic where Castle was shooting at people who committed misdemeanors. Then when the character got popular they retconned it to be a result of Castle being drugged.

>>90270760
That the writers on Punisher's comic books have defined certain traits for him over the time, and that a writer that never wrote on his comic line (even if he didn't have one at the time) doesn't count in such things, especially if they go against what was established. This goes for Miller, Whedon, Bendis or whoever.

Even in MAX Punisher had trouble hurting kids, and one time outright refused to kill one even if it would've costed him dearly. He started only when he got older and went further into madness.

File: WjZ08cW.jpg (128KB, 916x549px) Image search: [Google]

128KB, 916x549px

>>90260106
>What was the exact moment that made Marvel collapse into the hellhole it is in now?
AvFUCKING X.

I loved House of M, thought Civil War was dumb but OK whatever, adored Annihilation, Secret Invasion and War of Kings but AvX. That shit is where it all started going to hell. The only thing good about it was pic related.

>>90260442
TPBP

>>90260106
During the transition of becoming a lump of cancer being owned by Disney.

>>90270965
Gillen's final Uncanny arc and issue were golden. As was "Consequences".

Shame he wasn't one of the writers on the main book. Which had, what, six authors? Where Cyclops is the protagonist. And Gillen wrote the ongoing where Cyclops was the protagonist.

I'm still mad.

>>90260984
But I still maintain that it was one of the best capeshit deaths ever. Then they fucked it up.

I'd argue Civil War, and the event in itself wasn't that terrible but Marvel's been trying to retell the same story for the last 10 years with more incompetent writers, more frequent events, new characters that shit on the old for sole purpose of creating a headline then being lost in the shuffle because their book gets taken over by some crossover. Rinse and repeat forever.

>>90260106
House of M was the turning point, it's when Marvel turned it's back on the X-Men in favor for the Avengers

Ultimatum is obviously a big one as well as it ruined the Ultimate Universe which had it's place for trying out the shit that's unfit for 616, now that it's gone Marvel just prints anything, 1616 had a place as a containment universe for bad ideas and status quos

Secret War. Wasted opportunity.

There were embers in 2010-12 after that the fire rose and by 2015 had consumed most books.

>>90274565
The build up was great though, Times Runs out, a shame the event felt flat on the ground.

>>90261111
Took this long to get to the right answer, for shame /co/.

Also VERY close temporally: Immediately shitting on Morrison's New X-Men the moment he walked out the door and doing everything possible to reneg on the change, growth and progression it brought to the universe

Marvel has always been reactionary. Blame society and cultural changes, blame yourself, but you cannot blame Marvel, it just follows trends.

>>90262948
I find the potential for porn appealing, but I would never read whatever the character is from.

>>90270663

We just had a storytime where he snapped an attack dog's neck.

>>90261292
>Implying anyone would argue 90's Marvel wasn't mostly garbage.

>>90262301
Grant's thing was acceptable because X-Men had become an awful clusterfuck over the previous ten years. SOMEONE had to draw a line in the sand.

>>90274565
Did you mean Hickman's Secret Wars or Bendis Secret War? Just to make sure, because I never see anyone talking about Bendis' SW, so this could be a first.

>>90262624
Most people realize it's a story arc but people can still find the idea insulting on its face, both in the idea of taking a character created by two Jews and making him a Nazi for any length of time and just the last straw people are having for the "we're all about shock value and making people mad" mentality Marvel has.

>>90265708
The entire reason the industry moved to the direct market was because newsstand sales had been slumping for a long, long time (pretty much most of the '70s) and showed no signs of recovering thus they needed an additional income model. Of course the direct market was never intended to replace the newsstand at first even if that's what happened eventually.

File: 072.jpg (90KB, 487x754px) Image search: [Google]

90KB, 487x754px

>>90270039
>Be honest, when did you start """""""reading"""""" comics?

1976...probably longer than you.

Also the original question what was the 'turning point' and IMO you can cite & debate Ultimates, Civil War, Sally Floyd, all the way up to the Illuminati willing to commit genocide & Hawkeye Kate being pushed as 'our favorite one, you know the one that save the old ones butt all the time' as turning points but I think this past year Marvel pushed themselves over the line, & while I think there are WORSE things they've done over the past decade I think CW2 & Hydra Cap was the straw that broke the camels back among readership & retailers.

>>90262002
>introduce a fresh set of young characters that could've been fleshed out and brought into the spotlight after a few years of development
>lmao let's do Battle Royale: Marvel Edition
Who thought this was a good idea?

>>90262301
Pretty much this. All of these events and storylines + the MCU are to blame.

>>90279965
Look, man, I'll agree with you that Avengers Arena was dumb, but there's two ways post-AvAc was going to go down:
>they all get killed off
>they all sink into limbo to never be used again
There was NO OTHER WAY things were going to go any different for any of the characters involved and you are beyond delusional if you think that's the case.

File: qt Uzbekistani.jpg (605KB, 733x1000px) Image search: [Google]

605KB, 733x1000px

>>90270454
Pariya needs all the love she can get.

File: Samus 0005.jpg (245KB, 1152x2048px) Image search: [Google]

245KB, 1152x2048px

>>90264424
>>90264668
>You dont need to practice kung fu and yoga and marial arts in the tibet with Iron Fist to be a good Phoenix Host.
>Over a weekend
>Practice kung fu and yoga over a weekend.

>>90262002

He will be back eventually right? And be reunited with Hazmat.... Right?

>>90260106
George Soros bought into Disney, who owns Marvel. But now that he's old those shares, Marvel has promptly said they're ditching the political subtexts in 2017. Because Liberals have to make everything political.

>>90260106
I think it was around House of M or Avenger Disassembled. Basically, when the good guys started fighting each other instead of, you know, bad guys.

>>90279795
>>90270039
>>90268793
>>90262674
Arguably you could say it started with Avengers Disassembled like >>90283590 said. Or maybe even earlier since the Jemas/Quesada era showed Marvel was willing to ignore longtime fans if it resulted in a top-selling book. But even then New Avengers and Civil War sold really well in spite of how badly written they were.

Marvel's first downturn in sales was around 2010 which Brevoort blames on the lack of a big event, but that year had Siege, which was still a big event even though it was smaller compared to Original Sin or Civil War II. I think it had more to do with people leaving books because 2007/2008 had OMD/BND and 2009 had Ultimatum. And 2011 had Fear Itself which seemed to have a tepid response relative to other events.

They did recover in 2012 with Avengers vs X-Men (despite that book being a shittier written version of Civil War) and the first Marvel Now and Superior Spider-Man. Part of it might've been the Avengers movie (though that didn't really help Avengers Assemble's sales).

And for a long time after that they still could fuck up and claim they were outselling most of DC's titles. But I think people are on to something when they say CW2/Hydra Cap was the tipping point...

>>90284596
...I'd say it started a little earlier, when Secret Wars and Convergence were happening. Convergence and DCYou sales went really badly (in spite of how good some books are) and DC needed to course correct.

Meanwhile Secret Wars was seen by a lot of readers as excuse to drop the books cause it worked as an ending to the Marvel Universe. And the response to ANAD was probably one of the worst for a Marvel launch at the time (retailers were really concerned about sales on both Marvel and DC) since even though #1s got a boost, #2s and #3s dropped to the levels of pre-relaunch.

Hydra Cap had a boost in the first issue but subsequent issues fell to the levels of Remender's Cap. Normally the sales levels would be okay for a regular Marvel book, but not when this was a hyped up book that got a lot of anger attention.

Alonso implied that Civil War II was conceived in a shorter time than their other events, and it showed. Character motivations didn't make sense, things were illogical (She-Hulk being affected by a missile) that needed other writers to step in and damage control it, and all it served was to show how much a better writer Mark Millar is even at Millar's worst.

But Civil War II seemed to do okay in sales. Problem is that it was affecting sales of the tie-ins. And then there was another Marvel Now launch.... that people were generally indifferent to. CBR, home of pro-Marvel shills, had a poll that showed the majority didn't really care about the upcoming Marvel Now. That was a bad sign.

File: Mean-Girls1.jpg (346KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

346KB, 1920x1080px

For the record, Jaime Blue Beetle and Ryan Choi Atom were my favorite new characters of the last 10-ish years. I have 0 problems with POC legacy characters or radical departures from the predecessor. I also loved Kyle Rayner back in the day.

What happened was that Marvel got big mainstream hits and created an interest in (mostly) out-of-context pages and panels that were shared on blogs and tumblrs, reaching a broader audience than actual comics do.

Marvel realized that they could eat their lunch with the Cool Kids and immediately stopped hanging out with their old, lame friends. What? Those losers? Who the fuck cares lol?

At the same time, they didn't actually give the new audiences anything of substance, but just big flashy nonsense events without any real consequences, empty platitudes and navel-gazing self-back-patting (omg, RACISM is BAD, you guys), and no one made any real emotional connection to any characters and no one stuck around to pay money for the comics.

Also, once it's established that any b-lister will eventually resurrect if they die, it's hard to establish real stakes.

>>90260106
I read this comic earlier today. Sorry, I can't storytime it. This is the worst comic I've ever read in my life.

She punches Hitler.

>>90286628
I guess I should expand more, past the preview anyway.

She has sex with her girlfriend, then they break up. America leaves with her star teleportation power.

Winds up on the road driving a pick-up truck. Girl Hawkeye gives her a good bye kiss on the cheek.

Winds up at some college campus, where a bull dyke sorority tries to recruit her through bullying into their lesbian-only clique.

She star teleports trying to find her moms and winds up in the past, during the war. She meets Cap and he turns into Hitler and she punches him.

>>90260442
Marvel had already gone to shit in the 90s.

The spamming of shitty "events" on a constant basis guarantees that they'll never NOT be shit, though.

>>90260106
Civil war.

>>90260227
Doesn't change the fact the stories are shit and they've thrown themselves on the pyre of social justice. Also are you aware they give tens of thousands of issues away for free to scholastic and use that to plump their sales figures?

>>90286551
>Marvel realized that they could eat their lunch with the Cool Kids and immediately stopped hanging out with their old, lame friends. What? Those losers? Who the fuck cares lol?

this

>>90286628
>she punches Hitler
I fail to see how that's a bad thing?

>She has sex with her girlfriend, then they break up
>Girl Hawkeye gives her a good bye kiss on the cheek.
>breaking MAC up with the one character that succesfully humanized her just so they can do more GODDAMN BULLSHIT MACxKATE SHIPPING
Holy fucking I'm mad.

>>90263769
Just because X-Factor ultimately produced some great stories doesn't change the fact that its basic premise was damaging to the X-Men franchise as a whole.

>>90260984
>>90261225
>>90270404
>>90270798
How can people think this when Marvel was shit for long before then? Did you only read Ultimate Spider-Man?

>>90287504
>I fail to see how that's a bad thing?

Joke about /pol/ if you must but Hitler and the Third Reich weren't a bunch of incompetent idiots. You can't just make some no-name random punch Hitler, just like you can't do it with Thanos or Galactus.

Which is actually what Marvel did in each case, so there's the "bad thing".

File: 2015-07-15_18-56-57.jpg (40KB, 333x371px) Image search: [Google]

40KB, 333x371px

>>90288147
>Nazis could defeat capes, despite losing to humans in real life!

>>90288275
...you know a lot of arch-enemies of A-list capes are just humans, right?
Retard.

>>90288307
They usually have something to compensate, like the hero can't actually do anything to them because muh evidence.
Were they super Nazis? If not, there's no problem.

>>90288499
>the hero can't actually do anything to them because muh evidence

What. What the fuck are you talking about?
Is the only comic you ever read Byrne's Superman? Shut up already.

>>90287504
>I fail to see how that's a bad thing?
I haven't read it, but that sounds corny as fuck.

>>90288605
Nah, your mad is too funny.

>>90288605
That was just an example, Anon, why are you so upset?

>>90288629
Let the adults talk kid.

>>90288655
Because you have no idea of what you're saying.
What does Kingpin's social status have to do with him being a physical match to Daredevil and Spider-Man? What does "evidence" have to do with general Ross? Not to mention most of Cap's rogue gallery, starting from Red Skull. You know, the nazi.

>>90260106

They tried to expand their brand at expense of their current readership and it forced them into a cycle of more and more gimmicks, overshipping and basically trying to win on niche issues like SJW-progressivism.

In television terms, its trying to win over critics since you can't find an audience with current landscape.

They figure they're going to be an idea/assembly line for movie synergy anyway, so their intent should be to cross platform sell their ideas, you can see their intention shift after they were bought out by disney.

That is true turning point.

>>90288850
>What does Kingpin's social status have to do with him being a physical match to Daredevil and Spider-Man?
Kingpin is not a normal guy if he's a physical match for Spider-Man.
>What does "evidence" have to do with general Ross?
I said it was just an example you autist.
>Not to mention most of Cap's rogue gallery, starting from Red Skull. You know, the nazi.
And he kicks all of their asses.

>>90289030
>Kingpin is not a normal guy if he's a physical match for Spider-Man.
He is.
>I said it was just an example you autist.
Before becoming Rulk, Ross still was a normal guy without any "ability" other than being an US army general.
>And he kicks all of their asses.
.......you think the reason behind Hydra Cap is that he "kicks their asses"?

Again, why posting about something you have barely any knowledge of. This is not facebook, you don't need to make smalltakls.

>>90288275
It's less about their ability to win and more about the thematic element. You don't have Aztek beat Lex Luthor in a random issue of his own comic. You build up to it lime in Rock of Ages.

>>90288850
>Let the adults talk kid.
>saying that in a 4chan board
Oh, anon...

>>90289030
>Kingpin is not a normal guy if he's a physical match for Spider-Man.
Kraven is a human too.

>>90273027
>But I still maintain that it was one of the best capeshit deaths ever. Then they fucked it up.
It was done well, but it was the first time Marvel overtly killed a beloved character to push a diverse legacy hero.

Nobody wanted Ultimate Pete to die. Even worse that he revived and died when the Ultimate universe collapsed. Meanwhile that faggot Miles survived.

>>90289444

But that begs the question that I never see answered despite the fact that he gets to be on books consistently and has been for decades. The hate for bendis must be a loud and vocal minority for him to continue to work despite the common criticisms on /co

>>90261111 (checked)
I was going to say secret wars but your quads have convinced me otherwise

>>90289125
>He is.
That's really not possible, "Spider-Man strength" and "normal guy" don't go together.
>Before becoming Rulk, Ross still was a normal guy without any "ability" other than being an US army general.
And Hulk would fucking squash him in a fight, your point?
>.......you think the reason behind Hydra Cap is that he "kicks their asses"?
How is this relevant? Your problem was a Nazi getting punched/beaten by a super hero, there's nothing wrong with that.

>>90260106
For me it started with Disassembled. Lot of good things after that, but that's when it all started to go to shit.

>>90289444
I would have been fine with miles IF THEY HAD ACTUALLY WRITTEN HIM WELL. FUCKING MARVEL GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER YOU HAVE GOOD IDEAS BUT JUST SHIT ALL OVER THEM WITH TERRIBLE WRITERS.

>>90260629
MCU is the only thing that remains of the real characters.

a combination of:

° The indie boom taking writers out of marvel because their contracts didn't measure up to the potential profits of selling your own comic
° Editors that stopped curating comics entirely and now do little else than sucking up salary, letting the franchises' internal consistency rot into nothing and allowing the worst of established artists like bendis to shine through
° New artist blood composed of utter retards who can't write a book for their lives so they inject trending politics into their work
° Higher ups forcing synergy and perlmutters last orders as general manager pushing out the fantastic four from print making hickman have an autistic fit, turning infinity-secret wars into richards-doom wank and leaving marvel, then pushing the inhumans which was handled so badly due to the aforementioned points that the ivx became a laughting stock
° Disney letting marvel's capes basically become an IP farm, letting hired artists think they have free reign act like utter retards on the internet, harming the brand without getting fired or at least punished. Only thing Disney has actively become involved comic wise is with the star wars comics

it was all cumulative and depending on where you see it, it became visible during schism / fear itself or avx.

the only way this will be truly fixed if we get an editor in chief that actually does his job and starts bitchslapping people who get out of line.

>>90262301
hold up mate house of m set the groundwork for almost 6 years of good x-men comics

it was a drastic change but it gave us the messiah trilogy and a lot of goodies and build up

>>90264169
pretty certain marvel has allowed comics to sell at a loss for decades due to licensing and marketing deals

File: X-Men-Zone-006.jpg (1MB, 1280x1968px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1280x1968px

>>90273011
Gillen's run was fantastic.

I think it all went to shit with Ultimatum. It probably marks the first truly awful event they did, with nothing redeemable at all in it. But also
killed off their ultimate line entirely.

Whilst no-one can claim that the Ultimate line-up was good, very little of it was, but it's the ideal proving ground for different twists of characters. This is where Fem-Thor could have worked without annoying too many people, or where they could try out shitty mouth-piece titles like Champions.

But once Ultimatum hit the only thing that worked was Ultimate Spider-man, and it kept limping on. But because everyone knew it was dead, they started putting their shitty tests into the main universe.

>>90289986
>nothing redeemable at all in
To be completely fair, there was that one Spider-Man page. But that's literally it.

So how could Marvel repair itself and it's reputation? Who would have to go?

>>90290129
Alonso and Perlmutter. More importantly, they would need solid replacements.

From there it would just be good direction needed. You don't need to cull most of the writers. Even the bad ones (Bendis) can do alright under certain circumstances, you just need people who know their shit to keep them in line.

>>90290129
Bendis.

He's not the worst writer on the payroll, that's Humphries, but he's the personification everything wrong with the industry.

Ignores genuine criticism, writes everyone like a Buffy character, tramples over everyone else's work to justify his own, can't keep continuity within his own books.

You could certainly argue his editors are the problem here, but if he's got so much sway nobodies looking at his work, he definitely needs to go.

>>90260106
ok I don´t need a more direct warning then this

I don´t even care what marvels sjws did now I´m out

see you in another 2 years /co/

>>90290317
>You could certainly argue his editors are the problem here
lol what editors?

>>90289507
Not to go all /pol/ here, but Bendis has a "factor" that puts him ahead of the other talent. He used it to get his foot in the door and then attempted his "super star comic artist" crap.

>>90290413

Go as /pol/ as you want, it has never made sense to me that he seems so hated wherever I go in real life and on here yet the dude gets consistent work.

If he had nepotism/jew on his side that would at least make networking sense since I've never figured out how someone so hated can get so much work in the industry.

>>90290519
Well, I suppose it's not exactly a /pol/ tier opinion to say that jews in the entertainment industry are nepotistic as fuck.

Do you think it was a coincidence? I used to, until I realized jews are a tiny minority population wise.

>>90289507
A number of factors.

Most people, bearing in mind /co/ is not most people, don't even look at the writer of a comic, they're looking for their favourite characters.

He can meet deadlines consistently.

He's had good books in the past, so any criticism can be ignored by saying 'But his Daredevil run was great!'.

He writes one character, for absolutely everyone, which is quippy teenager, and he does a fairly good quippy teenager.

>>90260694
>Why is Stevonnie the header image of a marvel thread?

b/c the archie bunker who started it wants us to think "OMFGBBQ, the turning point was TEH FEMINISM" ...somehow.

>>90290574
To be fair, America is the pinnacle of what people hate about nu-marvel.

>>90260106
Icahn, Perelman, and Perlmutter in the 90s nearly destroyed the comic book industry, and everything negative that's happened to marvel has near direct correlation to the bubble pop

>>90262624
But Superior is where I finally stepped away from Spidey. Even got blocked by Slott on twitter for calling him a hack.

>>90289955
Aside from the Sinister issues, it wasn't very good at all.

>>90290796
>that fiasco of Slott crying and begging for Marvel to "make it stick"

What a pathetic and obvious self insert that all was.

>>90262624
>or even Superior Spider-Man
I guess technically I didn't walk away then, but Slott had made me quit before that already, so in effect not much of a difference.

>>90260106
My unofficial and totally bullshit list of events that started the fire:

1) The early 00s, while in general a great time for Marvel (recovering from bankruptcy, no more grim edgyness of the 90s but also no yearly events of the late 00s onward, a lot of solid creative teams, etc.) had three writers who ended up fucking Marvel up in the long run:

1a. Morrison, for introducing a totally new and wildly successful spin on the X-Men, showing that you don't have to follow continuity or genre conventions or what worked before to be beloved and well-selling

1b. Millar, who's contributions to the Ultimate universe and his later 616 stories set the trend for more "realistic" stories, which includes characters acting out of character, everyone being a dick, hero versus hero, more cinematic storytelling, decompression, etc.

1c. Bendis. The guy who took the above and perfected it, who made a killing selling decompressed stories with zero regard for continuity or character consistency. Won't go into detail here because we all know who and what Bendis is, but his success gave him influence, which meant he's shaped the company somewhat.

2) Civil War - Marvel's biggest event got them on the hero versus hero train, permanently. Now it's practically their default mode of storytelling.

3) AvX - Civil War on steroids, ended up launching their new (pre-SW) status quo which embroiled the X-franchise into bullshit it STILL hasn't recovered from and killed the Heroic Age, a temporary return to early-00s style Marvel.

4) Avengers NOW (or one of them, anyway, but not the original Marvel Now, which was decent) - Marvel had post-event brandings and even mini relaunches before, so Marvel NOW wasn't really that much of a change, but the subsequent relaunches ended up cementing Alonso's idiotic "comics are moving to an annual format, like TV show seasons" bullshit that nobody buys and Marvel's aggressive SJW push, tanking consumer confidence in the product.

>>90260561
Yeah, this is it for me. As you read through the great comics of the time, OG Secret Wars creates this weird disconnect, like a blackout drunk. SW 2 was just beating a dead horse.

File: Steve-Buscemi-smile.jpg (139KB, 1050x630px) Image search: [Google]

139KB, 1050x630px

>>90290841
"He's the spider-man kids will know ten years from now!"

The thing is, I think a lot of fans would be a little more forgiving about some of these terribly done stories if the writers and staff at Marvel currently weren't so up their own asses. It's exactly like that South Park where Kyle moves to San Francisco and everyone's just smelling their own farts. That is current Marvel.

>>90260561
>implying Inferno is shit
>implying OGS is shit
>implying Mutant Massacre is shit
>implying AoA is shit
>implying Acts of Vengeance is shit
>implying Infinity Gauntlet is shit
>etc

Events aren't the problem, it's when events became the default and consumed everything else when Marvel went down the drain.

This was starting to happen in the 90s (X-Men went from one thing to the next, and Spider-Man is notorious for the 9000 year long Clone Saga), but then the bankruptcy forced changes and it settled down again until Avengers Disassembled, which started the craze that only gets worse every year.

Now we have like two simultaneous HUGE events multiple times per year. Bendis was publishing OS tie-ins while AXIS was FINISHING. It's out of control.

>>90291055
>Spider-Man is notorious for the 9000 year long Clone Saga
At least we got the best Aunt May death out of it.

>>90286551
This is what people (both Tumblr and Marvel) don't realize.

The vast majority of your fans are straight, white and not racist (or not overtly so).

They never had a problem with Marvel's progressive attitudes, which it always had (look at Stan's letter columns from the 60s), because they were a) second to telling a good story and b) never attacked the reader directly, instead trying to make them empathize with the plight.

If Marvel actually bothered creating compelling stories for their new characters, fans might care about them more. If, instead of shouting OMG SO PROGRESSIVE they actually wrote strong stories with progressive morals, fans would be okay.

There was a black Iron Man more than 30 years ago, and James Rhodes is STILL a well-liked character. Don't sell me that bullshit that those dastardly white males can't stand a PoC legacy (What about Monica Rambeau? A black woman taking over a white man's mantle and LEADING the Avengers for a while in the 1980s?)

/pol/ talking about how this is new is because they don't read comics. Tumblr talking about how the backlash is due to racism is because they also don't read comics.

>>90286712

Are they trying to push us to the point of feeling sorry for him and wanting to seem him get to hit back for once?

>>90290129
For a while, I would keep the entirety of the line apolitical.
Politics can make for good story fodder but the creatives at Marvel don't know how to use it.

I would limit what creatives can say on social media while they're under contract.

I would reduce the roles of Bendis and Slott. I wouldn't kick them out but their influence would be greatly diminished. It would be interesting see how well they do on d-list characters and without the benefits of nepotism.

Quesada, Alanso,and Brevoort will have to find jobs elsewhere. Admittedly, they've done some good for Marvel but they've worn out their welcome.

New/legacy characters can still be created but selling them to prospective readers on the basis of their skin color, sexual orientation, or gender as if it's some kind of exotic novelty will not be permitted. Sell them on characterization and storytelling or be cancelled.

On storytelling: honor what came before and push forward.

>>90263621

I'm really not seeing how the launch of X-Factor, which was at the time, the 3rd X-Men book, was in any way "at the expense of" any other X-Men or mutant characters. The casts of Uncanny X-Men and New Mutants were still there, and the mutants who were at the time in limbo would have still been there, X-Factor or no X-Factor.

Also, Beast hadn't been an Avenger for several years by that point. He was on the Defenders, along with Iceman and Angel, and that book got cancelled to clear the way for X-Factor.

File: Maddy.jpg (133KB, 463x677px) Image search: [Google]

133KB, 463x677px

>>90291496

>>90265760
>destined
A word that's literally meaningless in the MU. "Whenever we stop a bad future, a new one pops up" or something like that.

Just like Gambit was "destined" to betray the X-Men, right?

We need to fucking stop listening to Bishop is what I'm saying.

>>90265436
Now THAT would be a twist.

Kill off Hydra Cap and replace him with Reborn Cap (2010ish?)

They already did that with Iron Man to absolve him of Civil War.

And I had that idea as the reason for Thor being unworthy - Fury told him "You're not Thor. You never were." Real Thor died in Fear Itself, as he was supposed to according to actual Norse lore. Odin, mad with grief, brainwashed Ragnarok (Thor didn't fully destroy him after Siege, Odin kept the corpse and reanimated it after Thor's death) into thinking he was Odin's son and gave him Mjolnir.

The enchantment says "If he be worthy". If Ragnarok, an artificial being to being with, was altered by Odin's magic to truly believe he was worthy, he should have no trouble picking up Mjolnir. But the second Fury tells him he's a lie, an imposter, he becomes unworthy.

And it's literally the only way to make sense of him not calling himself Thor anymore - because he's not Thor. He never was. But he IS Odinson, since Odin made him who he is, so he chooses that name.

>>90264424
yeah this did trigger me a little

kudos to the writers for making such a retarded idea a fun read nonetheless

>>90266171
he wanted to save mutantkind, which meant new mutants. no entirely sure about the childrens crusade stuff because it felt so out of tone I barely paid attention to it

>>90290660
elaborate

>>90291496
There's people that argue that marvel started to go down a creative drain with the rise of X-Factor and the Fantastic Four starting to tread on previous plotlines

The argument is that from that point on marvel stopped innovating story wise and began a slow stagnation as characters became stuck in status quo. Characters always returned and retained the same roles, compared to previous years by example the X-Men had a lot of the cast change roles in some way or simply leave the comic out of character development. So ultimately marvel's comics became a perpetual retelling of the same ideas.

I'm not entirely sure how much weight it holds given that the 90s were a hugely innovative period for marvel (for all the bad & good) even if it was not focused on storytelling. However it's also true that people became stuck in their roles and the 00s and the 10s have generally repeated the same ideas over and over again with entire casts reforming out of nostalgia value.

>>90291936
Regarding your last point, it does make some sense - if you think about what "classic" means for Marvel, it's definitely the 80s for a lot of characters. Classic Cap, Classic Thor, Classic X-Men, etc.

That does signify that the storytelling 'settled down' in the 80s to a comfortable and familiar level.

>>90291822

Didn't Ragnarok come back after Siege, though?

>>90292441
Norman Osborn "rebuilds" him.

You could easily handwave that to mean he created a new version based on the old one. Not like Clor/Ragnarok was ever consistent to begin with.

>>90291496

>was in any way "at the expense of" any other X-Men or mutant characters.

i mean it made Scott a total asshole to Maddie and started the kick of muh 05

>>90292512
Everyone has "Scott is a dick" as the default opinion.

Just once I'd like to see Scott be retooled into being a fan favourite. Closest we got was Rightclops.

>>90290129
Alonso, Brevoort and probably Quesada. Bendis too.

Marvel loves events and shocking twists and status quo changes, and, above all, rehashing old plots.

So do Secret Invasion II.

Secret Invasion, it turns out, was more of a Bay of Pigs than a D-Day for the Skrulls - a half-assed, under-planned, under-manned and FUBARed to hell military operation.

A handful of Skrull commanders realized this and refused to go down with the ship, going back into hiding with their soldiers. Veranke died, the empire collapsed, and they waited, biding their time and learning from her mistakes.

And now, after Secret Empire (SECRET Empire) fucks the MU up something fierce, they decide the time is right to strike, and the sleeper agents unmask.

Revealing that all the heroes, EVERYONE, introduced since 2008 has been an undercover Skrull. Ms. Marvel? Skrull. Sam Alexander? Skrull. Miles Morales? Technically not a Skrull since he's from a different universe. Synapse? Skrull. New Ghost Rider? Skrull. Previous New Ghost Rider? Also Skrull. O5 X-Men from the past? SKRULLS.

etc.

It would be the biggest shitstorm ever and /co/ would probably collapse but it would also allow Marvel to essentially get rid of all their C-listers and revert to a less shitty time.

>>90292512

I'd interpreted the original complaint as talking as if people were angry that the existence of X-Factor had resulted in a number of "more popular than the O5" mutant superheroes getting dropped into limbo, (which never actually happened).

So the "more popular than Iceman and Angel" characters who suffered because of X-Factor were "Cyclops' 1st wife", a civilian supporting-cast character who'd been around for all of about 2 or 3 years?

This may be why people started hating Cyclops, but it's hard to believe that more people cared about Maddie than care about actual superheroes like Angel and Iceman who'd been around for over 20 years by that point.

>>90290660
Its a REALLY long story. Those three are 80s business men, big bad gordan gecko types who were all responsible in one way or other for the collector bubble which nearly destroyed the entire industry, and tanked marvel to the point of near bankruptcy.

Fuck, like, I know its a faux pas, but this guy did one of the most thorough video series I've seen on it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNtyPhPKnlA&list=PLP7v2GoLok37YBm3WBaqvrKd97uSMYDPT

File: 12.jpg (21KB, 153x326px) Image search: [Google]

21KB, 153x326px

Extremely dumb decisions like handing out the X-Men, Spider-Man and Fantastic Four movie licenses for practically nothing.
Corporate: ending up with Disney who don't give much of a rat's ass about the publishing as long as they can milk it cinematically.
Practically handing over the most important stories to Bendis.
They basically killed off the X-Men franchise with House of M. Yes, it's been 16 years and it still sells strong, but look just how many readers jumped ship. the constant angsty muh last of our "race" shit is getting tiresome.
Just look how the cinematic X-Men universe avoids almost all post-House-of-M stories like the pest.
Extreme focus on flavor-of-the-month bullshit like Obama, Hillary/Trump and Social Justice issues.
One More Day/Brand New Day.
Killing off the Ultimate Universe, which was so fucking promising in the beginning.
Turning Nick Fury black.
Having anti-tech against anti-tech against anti-tech against anti-tech to neutralize some kind of tech/power/magic (really ran rampant during Dark Reign for example).
Casually killing off characters (Mettle) for shock value or killing established characters (Pym, Hulk) to force in minority/female characters.
Pushing these characters as "the best in whatever" on twitter, without having anything to show for it in the actual comic.
Pushing Inhumans and Captain Marvel.
Event after event after event after event. How many do they have each year now? At least one every 3 months?
"Non-events" between events like Dark Reign or Age of Heroes. "It's totally not an event, guys, but you better read every single issue that is marked with it so that you won't miss what's happening."
Letting writers/artists (Nick Spencer) openly slag DC on twitter and whatnot, making everyone involved except for DC look like absolute fools,
Openly hating their established readers.

On a sidenote though, Giffen and DnA saved Cosmic Marvel and it was really really fucking great (only for Loeb and Bendis to sweep in and ruin it again).

>>90270663
He'll kill it if he has to but won't lose sleep if he does.

>>90295151
Isn't that how Superman is?

>>90277823
Not that anon but that would be expected of a wasted opportunity, no?

>>90293264
Does this have sources?

I'm five minutes in and i'm already hooked, it makes an awful lot of sense, didn't know anything about new order pressuring shooter into making more comics.

now that I think about it, I guess it also explains secret wars II. and I guess that explains the b class marvel movies

but I really need to know if we can trust what this guy says. never heard of shooter marvel being overworked

>shooter almost bought marvel

brb killing myself, this is clearly the bad end timeline

>>90270536
80s punisher outright told a kid crying for help over his father's death that he was the one who killed him

>>90293264
holy shit this is really informative. Shame the dude spends so much time shitting on liefeld but i'm learning a lot. Specially about Valiant and shooter's. Thanks for that link mate.

>>90260106
So anyone want to tell me why /co/ hates this chick?

File: faggot_money_for_nothing.png (136KB, 471x411px) Image search: [Google]

136KB, 471x411px

>>90286628
>She punches Hitler.

You're kidding, right?

>>90288613
It's superhero comics. What's wrong with corny?

>>90297464
She's a latina lesbian with a take no shit personality and powers strong enough that she rolls with cosmic-tier heroes. So """""""SJW pandering mary sue"""""""".

Her new book sounds like hot fucking garbage though.

>>90290906
Good observations anon, but I'll politely disagree with:

>killed the Heroic Age, a temporary return to early-00s style Marvel.

The Heroic Age was some pretty covers & promotional art showcasing classic marvel heros looking distinguished but it was the same 'everyone is an asshole' Bendis house style.

>>90291479
>Quesada, Alanso,and Brevoort will have to find jobs elsewhere.

Agreed.. at least one them must go, & not just transferred to another division of Marvel or Disney but outright terminated/un-rehirable.

>>90292755
>Revealing that all the heroes, EVERYONE, introduced since 2008 has been an undercover Skrull. Ms. Marvel? Skrull. Sam Alexander? Skrull. Miles Morales? Technically not a Skrull since he's from a different universe. Synapse? Skrull. New Ghost Rider? Skrull. Previous New Ghost Rider? Also Skrull. O5 X-Men from the past? SKRULLS.
>etc.
>It would be the biggest shitstorm ever and /co/ would probably collapse but it would also allow Marvel to essentially get rid of all their C-listers and revert to a less shitty time.

That would be the biggest meltdown fan freak out of all time. The MarySue/tumblr crowd would lose their minds, Bendis would probably rage quit....

but as long as the Inhumans are being printed Ike wouldn't care...

>>90295886
>>90297417
I think a lot of it comes from Marvel: The Untold Story.

>>90299644
I want this.

It was all skrulls skrulling skrulls.

>>90260765
I'd wager "start of the MCU".

Which honestly makes sense, as the comics have seemed to piggy back off of whatever is posited to be popular in MCU since then.

Age of Ultron event occured just for Avengers 2 to be titled "Age of Ultron". Not sure how similar they are beyond the title but still. Civil War II is the biggest stand out, it came out just to coincide with the new captain america thing.

Honestly a lot of that legacy character stuff has been happening since the MCU. If I was of a conspiratorial mind, I'd say they were doing the Legacy thing so that they'd have eventual excuses to make movies about the same characters with different actors.

And again, comics being written to sort of reflect the movies. I haven't read much marvel beyond whats been reccomended or storytimed here, but I've heard GoTG characters and Iron Man have pretty much been rewritten to reflect their movie counterparts, and again the existence of a Rocket Raccoon standalone is more of that piggybacking.

>>90280198
Has the universe not been rebooted? Maybe? I dunno. I've honestly lost track with Marvel And DC.

>>90299920
I'm not sure. Howe hated shooter's guts and took every chance possible to defame him, when this guy does a fairly neutral stance

I think Fem Thor was the point of no return.

>>90262002
>>90262100
That still baffles me to this day. How much money do they get paid to shill? And why for Hopeless? Is he another TV writer?

>>90300382
>Age of Ultron event occured just for Avengers 2 to be titled "Age of Ultron". Not sure how similar they are beyond the title but still.

They aren't at all. Like the only thing the movie took was the name. Complain about Whedon's AoU all you want but it was still better than that fucking AoU comic Bendis wrote.

The other thing is that Age of Ultron was originally supposed to be Bendis' last Avengers storyarc. It's why the prequel was published in 2010 as part of FCBD. But it got pushed back because a combination of Hitch's slowness and Marvel's desire to get a big event after Siege and Fear Itself didn't do well, and they went with AvX.

When?
It started when they took control over it.
The events were set in motion then.
What you see now is the explosion that has been taking decades get to blow, a long fuse of many agendas being gradually pushed to the next logical position one after another, all part of a greater psychological war on western civilization.

You know it to be true, that's why I don't even need to name them and you know exactly who I'm talking about.