This is getting stupid. What was Morrison thinking?

>>90234772
iirc, this was a editorial mandate actually

>>90234812
I thought Morrison wanted to do it to fuck with Editorial since he knew that they'd just fuck up Xorn anyways?

>>90234812
I was about to ask whether it was post-Morrison that this happened or if it was an editorial mandate.

Either way, it's not something he wanted.

>>90234894
he wanted to do a entire "never know your heroes" plot with Magneto but Editorial was fucking him over with that so he did this (if i remember correctly)
>>90234860
he was also pissed to hell and back that editorial didn't gave him marvel boy, if only Jemas was actually good at his job, Grant may had finished his X men run and did stuff like Avengers

>>90234772
I've always figured it was one of three different things...

(1)- Dude's old, let's kill him off.

(2)- I just got my pink slip, time for some sweet revenge!

(3)- The weight of my own creative genius has driven me mad! Wa-Whooo!

>>90234812
The Magneto was Xorn was magneto all along wasn't a editorial mandate, in fact editorial hated the twist, and decided to retcon it, so they could put all the blame of the New York massacre on Xorn, who was pretending to be Magneto pretending to be Xorn.

This was the worst fucking twist ever.

>>90235795
>(2)- I just got my pink slip, time for some sweet revenge!
I thought around this time Morrison ditched Marvel for DC and gave his two weeks in a room full of people at a con.

>>90235847
But it turns out it was actually John Sublime pretending to be Xorn prentending to be Magneto pretending to be Xorn.

>>90235847
i think we can all agree that no matter who fault this was, this fucked the X men for a long time

Well anyway I just finished Morrison's run. What should I go to next? How's this 'Austen' fellow?

>>90236406
don't, just don't, its horrible in ways no man has ever seen

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>>90236406
>What should I go to next? How's this 'Austen' fellow?


Is this bait? lol

the best thing to come out of Morrison's run was we3

>>90236406
some say that austen is bad, but after bendis writing x-men, I would read austen anytime of the day.


protip: do not red x-men

>>90236406
It's a choice between Whedon's run and Whedon's run.
Also check out -House of M- after that for the M-day lowdown and new reasons to hate the Avengers, distrust Xavier, hate monochromatic witches, and understand Carol Danver's pettiness.

>>90236979
Thanks.

>>90234772
it makes more sense when you realize that Magneto was high on Kick, and Kick was the sentient mold "Sublime" that was actually the real big bad of Morrison's entire run.

>>90237037
Morrison -> Whedon (stop after DANGER) -> House of M -> Finish Whedon -> Decimation/Endangered Species -> Messiah Complex -> Fraction -> Gillen -> AVX (make sure to read Consequences)

And there's the best 15 years of progressive character development Marvel has ever done.

>>90236959
Austen's X-Men run has a shitty soap opera charm to it in retrospect, as well as some genuinely great Northstar and Juggernaut moments.

>>90237104
Yeah, Morrison even wrote an out of the "full-evil Magneto" thing, but editorial still made Xorn a guy pretending to be Magneto

Morrison had the idea of Magneto as the silver age bad guy forever and that the reform stuff Claremont did was bs so he did it in the comic with Xorn arc.

he's wrong btw but still a great run

>>90237247
>>90237104
>>90237298
Xorn was a great character that got fucked over either way.

>>90237344

yeah i just headcanon some bs around him and mags to fix my personal mental images

>>90237298
>Animal Man and Invisibles glorify drug use and terrorism
>"Magneto is such an asshole for being a big bad terrorist guys, haha look at how these drugs warp people's minds"
I like Grant, and I like the X-Men, but I like his run less and less over the years. The behind-the-scenes turmoil is palpable.

>>90237537
it is kind of noticeable that there was problems behind the scenes, one of the main reasons Morrison left was that

>>90237537

>The behind-the-scenes turmoil is palpable

You don't like the rotating artists composed over whoever was closest to the editor at the time?

>>90237586
Rotating fill ins because Morrison's bro Quitely is too fucking shit to ever hit a deadline

>>90237202
I'm pretty sure you can skip Endangered Species and you forgot Messiah Complex.
For real, after M-Day you can just pick up Messiah' and not have missed anything worth reading.

>>90234772
Does anyone have a link to that video where Morrison is doing a panel and he fucking screams like a madman at the start? I can't fucking find it

>>90240335
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-cxBuRU09w
Never mind I found it

>>90234987
>Grant may had finished his X men run and did stuff like Avengers

I never thought of it like that. I always thought Morrison's X-men was boring and masturbatory, but in retrospect that is a small price to pay to keep him away from Avengers

>>90237230
Squid Boy ;_;

So why does the current Magneto, as seen in IvsX, have the Xorn memories?

>>90237537
It sounds like he and Bill Jemas legit hated one another. It's too bad, seemed like Morrison had a lot of cool ideas like that Marvel Boy sequel.

Am I the only one ok with Magneto or Doom being complete assholes? THEY are supervillains of course they can have irredeemable moments.

Especially Magneto who literally goes on and on about a war between species. Seriously you guys just seem like complete fags.

Just because they are bad guys doesn't mean they can't have humanizing moments. Doom can be complete dictator in Latveria but also have a human moment with Val and then wear the magically enhanced skin of his murdered true love to fight RICHARDS.


Even Hitler had human moments but that doesn't mean we have to fucking love them. Same goes with these characters.

>>90240752
because the stupid niggas Soule and Lemire don't know shit about the X-Men, they can't even get basic shit like Rogue's accent right.

>>90237537
He was also working on X-Men at the same time he was doing The Filth, and The Filth is where he looked at the stuff from Invisibles and critiqued it in his own way, or did a flipside of it. I mean dolphins were seen in a positive light in Animal Man, right? But in The Filth he makes fun of that. The superhero who was damaged due to travel from the comic world to real world is kind of a flipside of Flex Mentallo and Animal Man. It wouldn't surprise me if some of that spilled over into X-Men.

>>90240752
There was always a second Xorn.
After Morrison's warcrime against polarizing characters, Marvel tried their hardest to retcon it away with a Xorn brother coming out of the woodwork to give Magneto an alibi.
Didn't work. So now there's an eXtra Xorn to eXplain away sooner or later.
Keep reading, maybe they can still pull this off.

>>90240935
"Assholes" is a relative term when their main adversaries brainrape enemies (fact), murder enemies (fact), routinely lie to their friends and family(fact), enslave "Danger-ous" innocents (fact), and make life-or-death decisions about the fate of cosmic beings with no oversight whatsoever.

>>90240935
>Even Hitler had human moments but that doesn't mean we have to fucking love them

HOW DO YOU KNOW ABOUT ZE CLONES?

>>90234772
that Kirby and Lee's X-Men was a actually good comics comics
shit taste

>>90234772
Grant's X-Men run is probably his worst mainstream Superhero comic, it's kinda sad that his best work at Marvel was that Zoids comic he did back in the 80's that he tries to pretend doesn't exist(which is also kinda sad because it's a legitimately good comic)

>>90237247

There was the fact that the story ends with Wolverine cutting his head off. That did force Marvel to go above and beyond the usual "Surprise! I survived!" explanation we get whenever A-list villains return from being thought dead.

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>>90241510
I like the idea that Wanda brought him back with her reality-warping magic when she lost touch with reality.
Chuck Xavier has his crazy bastard son mutie-deity, Legion ...
... and Mags has his crazy illegitimate daughter mutie-deity, Wanda.
It's almost a fair fight.

>>90240935
Yeah, I feel the same. I hate how much they masturbate over Doom being a hero. Millennials feel that they're mature when they show terrorists, rapists and other evildoers in the gray.

>>90236406
Whedon's Asthoinishing X-Men
Peter David's X-Factor
Rick Remender's Uncanny X-Force
These are the only x-books worth a read from the last decade.

>>90234772
your question implies that morrison had ever used his mind. the answer is: morrison doesn't think. he just believes that "this stupid faggots will eat up anything" that he shits

>>90234812
it wasn't. it was in morrison's manifesto. morrison planned it from the beginning.

all that morrison ever wanted, was to sabotage the x-men. that's it

>>90234987
hmm.. it seems that avengers dodged the bullet

>>90237537
I felt the same way, but nowadays I fucking hate Grant Morrison

>>90240348
I can't understand a single thing he says. It's like listening to a russian speaking english

>>90242121
>all that morrison ever wanted, was to sabotage the x-men. that's it
Wtf, I love Morrison now.

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>>90241845
Magneto and Doom are both nutcases. That's always a great character to read about.
Ever since Shakespeare, all those terrorists, rapists, and worse have been portrayed as humans complete in all their pathos.
Hamlet, Brutus, Tiberius, King Lear, uh ... Larry, Moe, Curly, etc... they were all basterds who did horrible things.
You want any less? You want to go back to stories made for five-year-olds? You really want the bar set low forever?
Magneto commits terrorist acts for an actual good cause: equality. He's a monster, but a monster for a good cause. That's worth exploring if not endorsing. As opposed to just killing off or dismissing offhand.
And Doom is above and beyond mere human morality in the same way Richards or Stark is beyond other mere human limitations.
Is the breaking of ethical laws any worse than breaking the laws of nature? Why? Or why not?
Not to mention that most of the awe fans have for Doom is based in how he *can* do what he does, not in what he does.
Don't hate the player, hate the game.

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>>90242121
The anon's right, there actually was method to Morrison's deconstructionist madness.
The X-Men franchise has been "reborn" since that run in a number of significant ways.
It became barely recognizable from the X-Men that Marvel had just a few years before.
It actually is a significant improvement in both quality and structure that's more noticeable when you've been reading X-books for as long as I.

>>90241128

All that crap was before his character got retconned by dicks like Brubaker and Whedon.


Xavier's retcon was utter shit you and I can agree with that. The 2000s and 10s era writers fucking suck when it comes to authority father figures. Every single one of them ends up being creepy fuck manupilating those around them with the bold headed hero/heroes proving them wrong with their dedication to heroics.


Fucking Johns did that with the Guardians of the universe as well and it sucked balls.

>>90242272
I like the players but even I have to agree the maastubatory bullshit over mags and doom needs to stop. Like you said Shakespeare provided human moments for his villains like Macbeth or Lady Macbeths but that never betrayed the fact that these guys were evil.


Both Doom and Mags have human moments but people forget that they are BAD guys for a reason and whenever a writer tries to go that route modern fans start a fucking uproar.

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>>90243118
Yeah, because Chucky X with the brainrape powers was never an asshat before the modern era...

>>90243174

>literally citing a pic where Xavier chatises a teenage Kitty for judging Rogue; who was a former villainess seeking redemption.

Fucking got me there

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>>90243146
Anon, how many Batman fans read the book for the villains?
Bruce Wayne isn't that interesting.
The same goes for Lex Luthor being more of a draw than just Superman, Spider-Man's Astonishing Foes, The Red Skull's trolling of Captain America, and everyone else.
The villains drive the story, they are the instigators in the drama, that makes them more interesting.
It's the same thing with Magneto and Dr. Doom.
Just because they provide better stories because of their presence doesn't mean that they are seen as morally righteous in the eyes of their fans.

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>>90243356
How about the pic where he telepathically rapes one of his students?
Or the one where he casually erases one of his enemies' minds ... again?
Or when he makes the command decision that results in Thunderbird's death, that death Cyclops blamed himself for after a narration box berated him directly, seemingly heard directly.
Or that time when he abandoned his students yet again and again by faking his own death with no regard to the emotional toll of doing such a thing.
Or one of the three times (decades before even Onslaught) when his mask of sanity slipped and he tried to kill his own students.
All that was "Classic Xavier", wake up: the noble good guy version was the retcon.

>>90243423

This 100%. I doubt this is the only example, but I don't think anyone would read Aquaman if not for moments like this.

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>>90245785

forgot pic.

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>not having a xorn figure

>>90243423
>>90245785
Excep that is my point. Some dumbcucks actually think they are morally righteous. I support well written villains. What I dont support is fans thinking they are in the right because the villains ego was so fucking big he righteously thought the only future that will save humanity was the one under his rule.

Some fans just ruin characters for everybody anons.

>>90243423
> Just because they provide better stories because of their presence doesn't mean that they are seen as morally righteous in the eyes of their fans

A lot of people DO see them as morally righteous. Ever since that fucking Panther saw the future people have been sucking DOOM cock harder then ever

>>90234772
only readable x-men story

>>90242110
Lmao stfu bitch

>>90237344
i love that you were impacted in the exact way morrison wanted

>>90235795
There's a fourth one

It was post 9/11 and Grant decided to shit all over Magneto for being a terrorist. I think even he has said looking back he went overboard

Morrison has some odd ideas about character that aren't DC heroes. In that recent 40 years of 2000AD book he said that Judge Dredd is an out of date character because he's only ever Dredd and doesn't have a dual identity.

>>90245804
is that malformed thing on panel 3 the water hand?

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Morrison didn't ruin Magneto, it was John Bynre, Bob Harras and Jim Lee.

They were each behind different bits of the backtracking characterization that plagued the character starting in New Mutants and ultimately lead to him just being the main villain again with X-Men#1

>>90236959
Wasn't Austen's run so bad he's legit not allowed to write for Marvel at all anymore?

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Weird thing is how they felt the need to hard retcon Xorn by saying it wasn't really Magneto, Morrison left an out for Magneto in his story when he showed that Sublime was present in the drug he was taking and even showed in his future arc that Beast became a monster when they took him over.

I mean did they even read his run?

>>90246451
>Marvel editorial
>reading anything

>>90246451
Anon it would break X-Men tradition if they didn't go about a retcon the most confusing and nonsensical way

>>90246451
It's easier not to read

Sublime was the real villain during Morrison's run

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>>90234812
Nope. Xorn=Magneto was planned from the start. Marvel back peddled like mother fuckers when Morrison killed Magneto in the Planet X arc.

>>90247309
> Morrison at Marvel
> Old men should just go away, their time has past
> Morrison at DC
> These characters are mythic and eternal with stories that never end

>>90245804
Nobody read that since that run is forgotten in favour of better runs.

Speaking as someone who just got into cape comics in 2014, you guys can't just handwave this shit thanks to writers and editors. Arguing about what is canon and what isn't canon is useless when dealing with characters that have been around for decades. Every writer wants to have their own interpretation of said characters.

A lot of you here argue you should just read the Big 2 for its writers not for the books and continuity. Well that's fine and dandy, but for those of use who recently got into cape comics, this shit is disconcerting and confusing.

One minute, Magneto is a misunderstood guy who does bad things in the 1980's to full-out mass murder in the 90's and this X-story.

>>90242099
>2099
>Based X-Men recommendations, including PAD-factor

Couldn't possibly be a coincidence.