>villain kills civilian >batman kills villain >total

muh principles

>>90037731
It's dumb, yeah.

But the better option would be if these characters are never put in a situation where they have to kill in the first place.

Superheroes shouldn't kill.

>>90037731

Why did Batman skip everything below the waist day? Seriously, what is this shit?

>>90037731
It's not about the number of deaths, it's about the number of murderers.

These threads should be banworthy

>>90037812
yeah ban what you can't argue against

Better yet, why doesn't a group of the guards of Arkham just kill the Joker themselves? Or pay off other inmates to off the Joker? Hell, why hasn't Amanda Waller put the Joker on Suicide Squad?

>>90037731
Batman wants to believe in the legal system. If it were up to him half of his rogues' gallery would've gotten the chair long ago. Not his fault they keep being allowed to walk on an insanity plea.

look man I don't know how to break this to you but there are some aspects of long-running capeshit that you're better off not examining too closely

>>90037731
>Tell me how the bottom is preferable to the top.

Because then the police have to spend manpower on trying to catch Batman, rather than being on his side. And while the GCPD can't REALISTICALLY catch Batman, they're better as a resource (either for getting information or simple crowd control), than another few dozen bodies getting in the way of him and the villain.

Remember, the GCPD is never run by someone who's in favor of Batman killing his villains. There's either Gordon, who's as big of a moralfag as Batman, if not bigger, or just another corrupt cop who wants Batman out of the way and is just warming the seat until Gordon gets back.

>>90037816
No, ban what's been done to fucking death. How many of these threads do we need to have if nobody has anything new to say? How many times has it been addressed in the comics, not even counting the hundreds of times we've bitched about it? Hey Anon, do you think Superman would beat Goku? Hey Anon, do you think that Ultimatum sucked?

>>90037890
Superheroes must get so sick of villains walking because of loopholes, lenient sentencing, bribes, jailbreaks, etc. Yet they have a strong sense of justice and believe in a fair trial. They should start their own 'off the books', outside-the-law private, secret underground common law court tribunals where they give supervillains a trial by a jury of superheroes and execute the guilty. They could call it the Star Chamber.

>>90038047
retard

>>90037955
Yup. The equation is really as follows:

Villain kills civilian
Batman kills villain
Cops kill Batman

>>90037731
At least make an effort. Batman won't kill. Use the Phantom Zone as an example.

>>90038079
Better luck next time.

>>90037731
How about focusing on making inescapable prisons instead of murder?

>>90037816
Read the archives.

>>90037774
Doesn't that make it... the government's fault and not Batman's? He's pretty much a by-the-book deputy. The establishment is the one that should be cracking down on it. Not him alone. he rounds them up for judgment - he doesn't execute the KOS.

Has there been an in-universe explanation as to why a few of the Batman's villains aren't on the Federal Most Wanted/KOS list? Joker himself has a higher body count than Osama Bin Laden. I can get Lex getting away with shit, but Joker, Ra's Al Ghul, Vandal Savage, Hell... even KGBeast.

>>90038464
Or cops don't kill Batman, and since literally no one objects to this they get away with letting him get away with it.

>>90037731
If Batman is so cunning, why doesn't he just ship all the villains to the Phantom Zone? Yeah, they could break out, but it's infinitely more secure than Arkham and Blackgate

>>90038048
Or for superheroes who don't believe in killing they could just banish them to the phantom zone.

>>90038707
Since when would Gordon be okay with it? And how could he shield Batman from Hady's corrupted police if Batman became a killer?

>>90037837
Joker is an expert at whatever is most convenient at that moment and I bet the waller has villians she knows would be too problemic

>>90038767
Wtf, hivemind.

>>90038707
Why not
>Batman capture criminal
>Batman tuns him over to cops
>Cops don't have body cams and are a fraternal organization and administer street justice

Like, really? No one thought to put a bullet in the fucking Penguin?

>>90037731
It's the principle of it, specifically the limits on authority.

Batman is and can only be responsible for his own actions. When a guard fails to do his duty in detaining dangerous criminals, that's on the guard, and the facility's manager for failing to keep up their end of the deal. When the courts and juries fail to convict and apply a death sentence, it's on the courts and the people of Gotham.

If you look within the context of the fictional universe, Batman has every incentive to avoid killing.

Jason Todd, Clark Kent, Hal Jordan, Ra's Al Ghul, Alan Scott, Jack Ryder, hell, Bats himself, have all died at some point and been brought back. He knows death isn't exactly permanent for people at the extremes in his world. If he escalates the situation it will make things worse.

What happens when Bats kills Joker? The bastard will be back, and having made Batman break his one rule, he'll test new boundaries. How many will Batman kill? What, if anything separates the two, now that they both have blood on their hands.

Batman is attempting to be a symbol, an ideal. He represents his own understanding of justice: that murderers, regardless of their reasons, are wrong. Justice, in his mind, is about protecting and preserving life, not taking it for the sake of revenge.

>>90038926
I'm not in favor of that, though it makes sense given how corrupt the cops are. However, what really angers me is stories like Soft Targets in Gotham Central, where Maggie Sawyer literally unloads a clip into the Joker, and he survives. What the hell is that crap?

>>90038999
Oooh, excellent call! I wish someone would bring that up in the actual comics.

I feel like these threads should really be why doesn't superman kill, its not like anyone can imprison him early on especially early on before his weaknesses were exposed

>>90038048
>They could call it the Star Chamber.
How about Law and Order: Super Villains Unit?

>>90037731
>inevitably
there's way more crooks that have only shown up for one story and never broken out afterwards than you think

>>90039133
His power is exactly why it makes more sense for him not to kill than Batman, he simply doesn't need to as no one poses a threat to him. Easy to have lofty ideals about not taking human life when your own isn't on the line.

Everyone deserves a second chance.

>Bruce Wayne dresses up as a DIFFERENT hero and he kills people using that persona and then he goes back to being Batman, maybe fake a fight between himself as Batman and someone else from the Bat family as this new persona so the public sees Batman and this other persona at the same time
>Batman continues to dole out his current brand of justice uninhibited

it's not but how else will they prolongue the story to suck up your wallet

>>90037731
This the worst example of the argument. ONE civilian death? That's it? The reason people keep making these threads is because some of these villains body counts are close to triple digits.

Which heroes are even in favor of killing? There's Wonder Woman sometimes, and there's ???

>>90037731
Inaccurate

>Villain kills civilian
>Batman kills villain
>Villain either comes back or is replaced
>In either situation the new/returning villain kills 100 civilians to show how big a deal they are

Batman doesn't kill the Joker because Gotham will just make something worse

>>90039364
Even in the Nolan films Batman didn't kill Joker despite his crimes yet kills Two-Face later on. After that he quits being Batman for eight years. Besides it's either that or have villains constantly coming back to life no matter how many times you kill them or spread their ashes.

>>90037731
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Action_Comics_Vol_1_775

Read it you edgy fuck.

I'm okay with Batman not killing the supervillains he fights.

What I'm NOT okay with is him deliberately saving supervillains from other vigilantes attempting to kill said supervillains. Just turn a fucking blind eye and let The Punisher do his job.

>>90039458
This is why I wish people didn't mainly rely on marvel for their dose of comics. We'd have more good movies on other comic series

>>90039133

1. We know what happens when Superman starts killing common crooks. We get Lord Superman.
2. Superman does kill. Brainiac, evil Kryptonians (not counting Zod. He's killed other evil Kryptonians), and other galactic threats have been killed by the Man of Steel.
3. Superman is supposed to be an ideal, something humanity should strive to be. What kind of message does it send when he looks down upon us flawed, weak humans and decides its just easier to drop motherfuckers you don't like? His greatest successes come from inspiring us to be better, and his greatest failures come when he becomes as petty as the worst of us.

>>90039290
Gordon would figure it out, Gordon is actually a really good detective

>>90037731
You know that the no-kill rule is just an excuse to avoid killing popular characters so don't expect logic or reason there. It's a rule that every writer will try to justify... and fail. But since fans are gonna defend anything writers can't care less about.

>>90038801
Yeah, except she keeps Captain Boomerang around for the exact same reason: Despite being a huge shit that nobody likes, he's effective enough to get things done & she can keep an eye on him.

>>90037731
The way i've always heard it is Batman is a crazy person and once he starts killing, he's never gonna stop. Yeah, it'll start out good with him taking out Joker, Scarecrow, and the other mass murders in his rogues gallery. But then he'll take out all those relatively harmless ones like Catwoman or Killer Moth. The public mostly will be cool with that although there's be a growing concern Batman is taking things too far.

All the goodwill that's left will dry up when he kills a hero though. Perhaps they just wanted talk to Bats, pull him back from the darkness, and Batman refused to listen to reason or maybe he killed them because they didn't live up to his standards. Either way he's wanted by the League now and since they're against the new pro-killing Batman, there's going to be some casualties.

The heavy hitters will die first. Superman's death will be especially shocking because instead of some climatic battle like you'd think, Batman will just shoot and/or gas him with kryptonite him while he sleeps. Soon only your B and C listers will be left.

Now depending where this is happening, Earth 0 Batman will revealed to be possessed or something like that, and then they'll bullshit someway to bring back everyone he killed. For the next year or so, everyone constantly bring up "Hey Batman, remember when you killed everybody?". It will be a cool story at first, (like how do you live with that even if it wasn't REALLY you doing it? There's some good drama to be mined there), but it will quickly get old and irritating and DC will retcon it the first chance they get.

If this is an Elseworld, Batman will die, probably by Alfred's hands (Dick was going to be the one to do it but Alfred didn't want him to live with the guilt) and then comic continues on for like 10 completely unnecessary pages and it just peters out in the lamest fashion Just like this post

>>90037731
>In some early issues of Detective Comics, Batman would shoot criminals to death on a regular basis. One day, DC editorial director Whit Ellsworth asked the writers to tone it down and make it kid-friendly, leading to Batman's Thou Shalt Not Kill attitude that he holds to this day

>In the original comics, The Joker started out as a sadistic serial killer; in the first two years he was used, he killed close to 30 people. Eventually, he became less murderous and more of an Idiosyncrazy villain with a "jokes and gags" theme who robbed banks, built wacky gadgets, and pulled harmless pranks because of the Comics Code Authority.

Those big motherfuckers

>>90037731
because then you need to take Batman's word on it that he's been killing people who'd kill people if he didn't kill them first. You're only inclined to believe they're worth killing AFTER they've killed 50+ people over the course of dozens of criminal escapades. If Batman had in fact been "efficient" (and also apparently clairvoyant) from the get go then you'd just have Batman murdering people and no victims, other than the people Batman killed before they had the chance to kill other people. The actual hard numbers then make the kill score...
Joker: 1
Penguin: 1
Two-face: 1
Poison Ivy: 1
Scarecrow: 1
Batman: 5
and so on and so on down the rogues gallery

>>90039679
Boomerang is no where on the same level as Joker. Joker is an overblown mobster but to keep the image up the Joker needs to be more "supervillain" than boomerang

>>90037731
Well, there's >>90037774, but you know what would really happen if Batman killed The Joker or some of the more violent members of his rogue's gallery? It would go like this:

>Batman kills x-popular villain
>Batman goes on with his life and career as a crimefighter
>Comic fans bitch and moan
>Or some new author is brought in who wanted to do shit with said popular villain
>Villain is brought back through contrived reasons.
>Fans then complain about this.

Batman is a giant fucking pussy who has a severe fear of mortality regarding ANYONE stemming from watching his parents get murdered. He actually wants to kill every crook in Gotham SUPER FUCKING BAD but the trauma and anxiety keep him from doing so. So he feigns a moral high ground he doesn't really believe in in order to maintain a level of intimidation among criminals since he can't let them know he's a big puss.

>>90039791
Batman VERY commonly had the same thing w/ Green Lantern (same writer) where even if he didn't ACTIVELY murder people anymore, he'd certainly LET them die very quickly. When he stopped killing people & started hanging around with his son-chum, people still fell into their own traps or tripped off buildings and they'd just shrug, dust their hands off & say JOB WELL DONE!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kscfb9XzPs

>>90039458
I didn't think Batman killed Harvey in Dark Knight.

>>90039875
This is the answer:

>>90037731
Batman tries to preserve all life and doesn't want to be directly responsible for any death.

>>90037731
not understanding the genre [check]
another one of these threads [check]

>>90039826
Boomerang is an overblown jewelry robber who is usually in trouble with the law for being a dumbass & keeps on doing crime & doing shit the Rogues hate. If anything, they know damn well the Joker can take a bullet & keep going, unlike some violent, rapey Australians.

>>90039536
That I also agree with. The whole "Batman saves Joker because he's going to be put to death for a crime he didn't commit" thing is a terrible story.

>>90039932
He did because Gordon's son was in danger.

>>90037774
How dare this guy who isn't empowered by the law and the people not take lives into his own hand

Because it isn't his place to decide who gets to live and die.

>>90039765
Brilliant!

I mean, if you want a world where the capes are all registered and are authorized to use lethal force, you're looking at a very different world.

>>90037808

>Joker and Two-Face kill civilians
>number of murderers: 2

>Batman kills Joker and Two-Face
>number of murderers: 1

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>>90040156

>>90040022
Yeah, but the answer to that is usually:
The police are inept fuckups or corrupt fatasses, the Joker has LITERALLY walked out of Arkham before, the justice system is really enabling to the criminals (since it clearly doesn't work) & most people silently accept that Batman gets the job done better than anyone else. The problems ALWAYS crop up because the question is "If he had kill the Joker, WHEN WILL HE STOP?!" likening killing mass murderers who WILL escape justice to the slippery slope of "He'll soon become the evil god-king that will judge us all."

>>90039932
It wasn't intentional.

Harvey was going to shoot Jim's son, Bats only move was tackling Harvey. This launched both of them off a ledge. Harvey took the brunt of the fall, and had Bats land on top of him. It's implied that this killed Harv, though it's never explicitly stated. In theory he could have been knocked unconcious (people had fallen from great heights earlier in the film, and we never actually saw the fall so the cape could have theoretically slowed them like it did in Rachel's fall). However, his absence in the final film suggests Dent kicked the bucket.

>>90039985
He knocked Harvey over to grab the kid. I'm not convinced that's killing any more than letting Liam Neeson blow up with his own bomb is.

But it is a grayer area than the comics let him touch.

>>90039931
I enjoyed this movie, but doesn't Batman leaving Joker make his choice not to shoot Jason kinda moot? How is that any different (well, other than not actually killing Jason)?

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Most DC heroes (like Batman) are stuck in their own microverse. So they cant band together and create a super-prison to get rid of their villains once and for all.

Why doesn't Superman just kill every murderer in the world?

>>90040709
If all got what they deserved, who would scape whipping? There is none righteous, no not one.

I'm in favor of the death penalty, but not dealt out by a god king who rules through might. That kind of power reveals corruption inherent in all sentient life, and it's not worth it.

>>90040705
And when they do it's Squadron Supreme.

>>90040679
Jason maybe isn't dead as he disappears after the blast and there's no body. Also Jason is the one who set off the bombs.

You know Grant Morrison has already addressed this issue in an interview. You retards are just embarrassing yourselves.

Why don't the Police kill the Joker?

>>90041176
if they do Gordon will rape them and their family to death

>>90041041
I know - I mean Jason setup the "kill him or me with a gun" scenario, but then also setup the "let him blow up" scenario. What is the moral difference between letting Jason kill him with a gun vs. a bomb?

>>90041095
Isn't his answer "lol drugs"?

>>90041528
nice one, dude

>>90041095
link or it didn't happen

>>90041528
>>90041706

>"...But I’m not sure about the killing thing. I don’t want to sound like some fuddy-duddy Silver Age apologist but I’ve noticed a lot recently of people saying Batman should kill the Joker and, yeah, Superman should kill, he should make the tough moral decisions we all have to make every day. I don’t know about you, but the last moral decision I made didn’t have anything to do with killing people. And I don’t think many of us ever have to make the decision whether or not to kill. In fact, the more you think about it, unless you’re in one of the Armed Forces, killing is illegal and immoral. Why would we want our superheroes to do that?...There is a certain demand for it, but I just keep wondering why people insist that this is the sort of thing we’d all do if we were in Superman’s place and had to make the tough decision and we’d kill Zod. Would we? Very few of us have ever killed anything. What is this weird bloodlust in watching our superheroes kill the villains?"

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/2013/07/28/grant-morrison-sunday-conversation-batman-wonder-woman/2586739/

>>90040306
I don't know, you're literally encouraging serial killing just because the targets are evil

>>90041479
Okay. I think your premise is wrong though. The scene is about Jason trying to get Batman to prove his love by having Bat kill the Joker. Bat tries to tell Jason that he does love him, but he won't kill. Jason can't accept that, and thus "it's me or him!" Bat sees through that and leaves knowing there is no good choice that fits his morality.

It's not about "if someone kills the Joker." It's Jason is trying to twist Bat's morality to prove Bat still loves him. Bat won't bend it even for someone he loves.

>>90039968
Besides, Waller could always pop the Joker's head.

>>90042025
I mean, you're right, it's about Batman's love for Jason, not about killing the Joker, but that doesn't really answer the question about why letting someone else kill Joker is equivalent to killing him yourself.

>>90042137
He's not necessarily trying to save the Joker, he's trying to save Jason. To your broader question, Batman just hates killing, and he will try everything in his power to stop it even if that person is the Joker.

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>>90037731
There is something else Batman can do....

>>90042413
True. I haven't had Batman's trauma, but it's very unsatisfying to see him give the Joker mouth-to-mouth in Last Laugh.

>>90041782
Aw, rats, no drugs!

But it doesn't seem like he has much to say, really. Superheros are not civilians - they are part of the crime and society-saving community. There is justification for arguing that killing evil characters - at least in self defense - is acceptable.

>>90037731
Can't sell cape comics without a rogue gallery.

>>90042722
There are some Superheroes that do share that mentality. Like Green Arrow. Batman just hates people dying on his watch and will do his best to prevent it.

Idk wouldn't it be better use of the no kill rule of it were used along side Batman desperately trying to reform his rogues? Just dumping them in Arkham is pretty irresponsible

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>>90042931
I'm glad to see some shows following suit. Rogues galleries are always a blast. If most people have a hard time with Batman not killing his homicidal rogues gallery, I'd recommend Batman 66. It utilizes the rogues gallery perfectly and they don't kill.

>>90042931
Yeah, that's the essential point. No one wants to see Batman fighting a bunch of faceless generic mooks every issue. You need your crazy villains to make the stories worthwhile. But if you publish 80 years of a comic, that's going to make things a lot harder.

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I miss Chuck Dixon on Batman.

>>90043188
I love Dixon, but on the no-kill thing, I was not a fan.

>>90040022
>this guy who isn't empowered

In some universes Batman is.

>>90038696
>Ra's Al Ghul, Vandal Savage

Considering how old these two are and how connected they are. They could probably keep their selves off of any lists like those.

>>90037731
So, what's the solution? Tone down the rogues gallery. The DCAU didn't have Batman's rogues as violent as the comics. Or we could make them goofy like the Silver Age and Batman 66:

>>90043135

>>90040346
>However, his absence in the final film suggests Dent kicked the bucket.

At the end of the second movie don't they have a funeral for him?

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This thread is filled with some serious bitches.

>>90044738
Yes, but it is closed casket. No body, no guarantee the person is dead.

>>90037812
Why doesn't Batman just kill the OP of these threads?

>>90038079
Yeah insult someone you can't argue against

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>>90037731

meanwhile in real life where jews are not faking legends of white man.

https://youtu.be/IV3yvOkooYA

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>DC has actually gone out of their way to admit that Batman killing his villains is the road to a perfect universe.

>>90040705
Because something something Justice Lords, something something BUT DO WE HAVE THE RIGHT?!

>>90037731
The only reason Batman is even allowed to operate in Gotham is because he doesn't kill.

If he started killing criminals Gordon would turn on him, same for the majority of the bat-family and probably even the Justice League.
And considering how the government is happy to take those super villains and turn them into black ops they would be against that too.

This obviously ignoring all the real world reasons for which Batman doesn't kill his villains.

>>90046118
uwu what's this from?

The question is why aren't other heroes kept to this standard? It's always about Batman

>>90046118
but then you have Flashpoint were Batman kills and Gotham is just as bad

>>90037731
>How come Batman doesn't kill his villains?
Because then DC would have to make new villains.

>>90047171
Making new villains is easy. It's making them credible that's a challenge. So many fans want the usual rogues gallery. Most new ones don't last too long.

>>90047210
it's not easy at all
name three new memorable batman villains from the last 10 years

>>90047230
I said making new villains is easy, but making them memorable or credible is hard.

>>90037731
because if he kill them he will run out of bad guys and they won't be able to make more comics

>>90047230
the carpenter

Why do people act as if death is something final in comics?

The only difference is that instead of "everyone escapde from Arkham!" events we would have "everyone got resurrected again!"

Death being more real in comics would require a constant stream of character creation to replace all the villains slaughtered by serial killer "heroes".

Copyright infringement makes that impossible.

>>90047416
They have to pretend or there will be less danger. also it would be disrespectful to the dead and raise a question of why does not every slob in Gotham get rezed? The joker can't kill anyone if they don't stay dead

>>90037731
That's a problem with the system not Batman.

>>90037731
>batman captures villain
>puts villain in a shitty prison
Superman has the negative zone
Lex fucking built a prison that even he could not get out of.

Why cant Bruce Wayne do the same?

>>90047546
actually both Blackgate and Arkham are state of the art prisons.
There are even issues where Batman with his gadgets has problems escaping Arkham, point is that the plot requires them to be out so they will always get out even if they were in the phantom zone.

In No Man's Land Batman made a prion and put Bane in charge of it and no one escaped for example because the plot didn't require it

>>90047230
Professor Pyg
Talon/Lincoln March

>>90037731
batmans job is to put people in jail, and it ends there

the police are the ones responsible for locking up the criminals, and if they keep busting out its on them, not batman