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Friday Fantastic Fourytime 2017-02-17 06:44:20 Post No. 89997242
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Friday Fantastic Fourytime 2017-02-17 06:44:20 Post No. 89997242
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In 1961, Stan Lee & Jack Kirby started something revolutionary.
In 1989, it all started to fall apart.
In both instances, the Fantastic Four were ground zero.
This is the story of how Marvel died. Given all this MMM/Generations/"Rebirth" news, I'd say it's really worth reading.
(In association with Ultimates ancillary storytime; what it lacks in cosmic it makes up for in meta)
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>>89997307
>>89997304
good brother
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>>89997242
>In 1989, it all started to fall apart.
>Fantastic Four were ground zero
How so?
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>>89997337
No Problem.
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>>89997369
>>89997343
How about you read along and find out? :^)
If you want I can provide some opening context. Would've already but I thought it might distract from the pages.
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>>89997420
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>>89997460
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>>89997516
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>>89997420
>I can provide some opening context
Go right ahead.
There's no way one single comic is going to explain how "it all started to fall apart".
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>>89997547
>>89997541
It's several comics, the arc goes on until #333.
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>>89997587
Still, the idea that one series can provide context for the downfall of an entire company is absurd.
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>>89997343On his website, Steve Englehart talks about how the reversion to the original team in Marvels' "flagship" title (arguably it hadn't been that for a long time) was symbolic of the regression that was going on in general at Marvel at this time. There's a lot of truth to it. Stylistically, Thor, Speedball, and Gerry Conway's taking over of two Spider-Man titles can be seen as a regression, as may Roy Thomas' return to Doctor Strange. The Avengers line-ups are cleaned up, with Captain America playing a larger role. The X-titles may not really be considered part of this, but when Bob Harras took over that line, he forced the Inferno event to tie up long dangling plot threads and, most relevantly here, push the original X-Men team in X-Factor back together (e.g. Angel is back with the team, Beast is no longer dumb, Cyclops and Marvel Girl are free to have a romantic relationship). Even Alpha Flight engages in a four part story that similarly restores a status quo much closer to the original configuration of that team. It's at this point that Chris Tolworthy's interesting FF site says that, "Events stopped having consequences. Characters stopped having pasts."
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>>89997738I don't know if this was intentional or if all these examples are even in support of the same thing. Certainly Amazing Spider-Man and Hulk show very different directions, both in terms of art and story. And despite Inferno, Chris Claremont's X-Men continue down an independent path. I also take a different view than Chris Tolworthy in the sense that at least as long as Mark Gruenwald occupies the Executive Editor role, Marvel history still matters. But there's definitely a number of things converging here. The first is indeed Gruenwald's reverence for past stories and classic characters, which while admirable could be seen as too backward looking to allow for new development (my example, of course, is Gruenwald forcing Captain Marvel out of the Avengers' leadership role in favor of Captain America). The second is Tom DeFalco's reverence for Silver Age sensibilities, which is similar to Gruenwald's interests but different in important ways. And probably the most important point is that at this point Marvel is owned by people that have bigger expectations from the comics than to just make money (which is all Martin Goodman or even Cadence really wanted). These guys want to see year over year profit increases and, most importantly, want to be able to exploit (i don't necessarily mean that word in a negative sense) the intellectual property that they own in the large markets of film and television. And that's where their interests converge with DeFalco and Gruenwald's (especially DeFalco's), in the sense that the more the comics are in a classic status quo that casual fans and non-comic readers might recognize, the more it's possible to translate them into other media.
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>>89997761Again, is any of that really relevant to the changes that were forced on Englehart? Probably not explicitly, anyway. Despite the innovation that Englehart touts, changing the Thing into a weirder and harder-to-draw version of himself wasn't really all that big a change, and for the most part the stories in this book haven't been all that innovative. Fun explorations of the Cat People and other weird aspects of Marvel, sure. But instead of groundbreaking, i think it's fair to say the stories recall Englehart's past efforts from the 1970s like the similar continuity explorations of the Celestial Madonna storyline that consolidated all the aspects of the Kree and Skrulls. We know that sales on this title were plummeting, and that Mr. Fantastic and the Invisible Woman returning to the group was inevitable. It also seems like Englehart might have had more latitude to innovate than he seems to have thought; for example, it may seems like we've fully regressed to the original Fantastic Four, but our "Thing" is a woman. If he had chosen to work with the editors instead of plotting out the poison pill of the upcoming storyline, he could very well have had free reign to explore the logistics of Reed and Sue trying to keep their promise to raise Franklin better while still being in the FF, for example. After using the John Harkness pseudonym on Daredevil #237 and abandoning his run on that series for what seems like a very minor slight, i'm inclined to think that he simply resents any changes from outside influences, and editors should have some say over the direction of the series.
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>>89997738
EVERYTHING in this post is an IMPROVEMENT.
You sound like Shooter trying to justify the "new universe".
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>>89997242
>>89997253
>>89997587
Okay so, opening context:
A year or two before this issue, the Fantastic Four writer had written Reed & Sue out of the team. They retired from cosmic adventure so that they could settle down and raise Franklin properly, as the natural payoff to decades of storytelling. Shortly thereafter Walt Simonson gave them places his all-new #300 Avengers team, to keep them in circulation.
Then Marvel editorial stepped in and demanded they go back to the FF. Because they were looking into media beyond comics and wanted the IP kept pristine. The 90s would go on to have an FF cartoon and an FF movie,
The FF writer didn't take it too well. He handed in his resignation and wrote this as his last arc, in response.
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>>89997950
>>89997738
dangit bobby
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>>89997916
>X-Factor was a good thing
Are you for real?
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>>89997974
>>89997685
Oh I never said 'company'.
Although they DID go on to file for bankruptcy a few years later, due in no small part to what this story is about.
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>>89998053
Think of 'Marvel' in this statement as more of a philosophy, or mindset, or fictitious universe.
A fundamental part of what MADE Marvel Marvel went away in the 1989, and inspired this story.
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>>89997916
I'm quoting another guy, that's not me. The point still stands, this was the era of regression for Marvel, it's this exact kind of thinking that never allowed Claremont to let the cast of New Mutants become the next X-Men. Also, X-Factor and Scott/Jean are garbage so fuck you.
>>89997974
You took too long, old man.
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>>89998122
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>>89997242
>In 1989, it all started to fall apart.
But Hickman didn't destroy 616 until 2014 or whatever. Also is this related to that insane FF as great American novel thing
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>>89998144
>>89997761
>I also take a different view than Chris Tolworthy in the sense that at least as long as Mark Gruenwald occupies the Executive Editor role, Marvel history still matters
Oh he doesn't necessarily disagree. Like I said, this was just the start. That process didn't complete untril 1996 (which included Gru death).
Anon's right in that you can't pin such a vast paradigm shift down to one specific moment. This arc was intended as a cautionary tale, that no-one heeded.
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>>89998272
>>89998131
*shakes fist*
>>89998196
N-no.Yes.
For what it's worth I noticed this shit on my one ages ago, that site just put a clear structure to it. With lots of citations & sources.
That insane FF Great American Novel thing IS pure bullshit in a lot of places but this ain't one of them IMO.
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>>89998386
Sue's Savage.
>>89997761
>my example, of course, is Gruenwald forcing Captain Marvel out of the Avengers' leadership role in favor of Captain America)
Oh shit somebody brought this up yesterday but couldn't remember the details?
Is there a link to the full story somewhere?
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>>89998445
>>89997785
>Mr. Fantastic and the Invisible Woman returning to the group was inevitable.
That's the thing; it wasn't.
Not in his mind at any rate. Looking at it today, sure it was. Because that's the narrative that post-90s comics have generated; nothing ever sticks. At the time, it might've if they'd let it. And that narrative would be different.
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>>89998131
>Also, X-Factor and Scott/Jean are garbage so fuck you.
Claremont was furious. And he was right to be. X-Factor premiered as a terribad book with no reason to exist beyond fluffing a generation that had long since stopped reading comics and wasn't coming back.
And most unforgivably it returned Jean Grey to the MU, who turned everything she touched to shit and made Rachel Summers irrelevant.
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>>89998572
Also given that his editor was DeFalco and the world can see what DeFalco FF is like, I'd say this right here is a bad example of that last point.
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>>89998640
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>>89998682
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>>89998640
DeFalco also stole Thor from Simonson and only now admits he was a selfish piece of shit for doing so.
PAD went on a rampage over retconning Alicia as a Skrull because Tommy said only Torch could love her. This should have been the warning to Marvel execs that artists shouldn't become EiCs because their nostalgia would interfere with anything moving forward.
Instead, they replaced Tom with Quesada, and we all know how that worked out for Peter Parker.
Even DC figured this out when they replaced Infantino with Jenette Kahn.
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>>89998711
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>>89998725
>Instead, they replaced Tom with Quesada,
No, they replaced Tom with "Group Editors", which was basically the editors of each line (Spider-line, X-line, etc). It was then that it got really disorganized and frantic. Then the following year Bob Harras became EIC and he was there from 1996 to 2000. Then after that Quesada became EIC.
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>>89998640
>>89998725
Lyja is mai waifu so I don't mind ^w^
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>>89998761
>>89998131
>it's this exact kind of thinking that never allowed Claremont to let the cast of New Mutants become the next X-Men.
I've been thinking about that a lot lately.
After I read this, I read Power Pack. Then /co/ happened to have a Power Pack thread, and I realized: they were the next-gen FF. They fell into obscurity for the same reason as the Mutants and the Warriors (only intensified, because progress was FF's bread & butter).
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>>89998836
TY for the correction, my memory was starting to remember Harras but I'd already submitted the post.
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>>89998874
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>>89998622
>no reason to exist beyond fluffing a generation that had long since stopped reading comics and wasn't coming back.
Are you implying the O5 would've all faded into obscurity without it?
And I'm a massive Excalibur fan, so agree about Rachel.
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>>89998909
>>89998977
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>>89999006
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>>89999036
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>>89999083
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>>89998131
>it's this exact kind of thinking that never allowed Claremont to let the cast of New Mutants become the next X-Men
How would the transition have gone, though. Ororo depowered, that's easy. Logan's already everywhere else at once, no problem. Kurt's easy to put in a more adventurous team (like X-calibur), but now you have the other 3:
Kitty (see Kurt), not too hard but some thinking necessary.
Rogue: literally nowhere else to go unless whoever wrote the Avengers picked her up (and good luck getting Claremont to approve handing her over)
That leaves
> Piotr ever leaving his sister's side
Not during this era.
Claremont kinda painted himself into a corner here.
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>>89999108
cute
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>>89998906
Harras' time as EIC is a really strange one because it seemed like they were trying to roll almost everything back as an apology for the changes they did in the 90's.
Avengers by Busiek and Perez was often their top-selling non-X-Men book. But then there were blunders like what they did with Spider-Man (Byrne revamp, "death" of Mary Jane", Peter back to being poor and down on his luck) But even then they tried to give a shit or at least pretend to give a shit about consistency/characterization/ vague sense of continuity. You end up losing a lot of that by the 00's. Part of that is Quesada/Jemas, part of that is also creators griping about having to follow continuity. I mean, I don't mind ignoring continuity once in a while provided the end result is good. But a lot of times with Marvel stuff in the last 17 years I'm mostly seeing subpar and mediocre results that only end up calling attention to lack of consistency/continuity.
People complain about fans disliking the whole Parker Industries thing, and that they don't want change, but the problem is ever since OMD, only gullible people would actually think Peter would remain a millionaire forever, Marvel has shown that it's willing to roll back the clock no matter how illogically.
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>>89999133
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>>89999156
>>89999113
Surely Kitty was still young enough to stick around. Maybe Rogue too.
>Piotr
Had Defenders been cancelled yet? I think a mystic team would fit him for some reason.
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>>89999206
Maybe just Mysticism outright. He goes to Dr Strange, tries to learn more about Magik's predicament.
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>>89999113
Plans could change. Also Kitty and Kurt could jump to Excalibur, while Rogue and Colossus remain with the X-Men (which would be made up of the New Mutants). Come to think of it wasn't there a short time where Kitty remained intangible and unable to change back? I remembered seeing that in FF/X-Men but can't remember how it happened.
Also Claremont had a different Mutant Massacre/Fall Of The Mutants thing planned that would've involved the Fury from Moore's Captain Britain, but Moore had major conflicts with Marvel and so Claremont had to scrap it.
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>>89999232
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>>89999154
>People complain about fans disliking the whole Parker Industries thing, and that they don't want change, but the problem is ever since OMD, only gullible people would actually think Peter would remain a millionaire forever, Marvel has shown that it's willing to roll back the clock no matter how illogically.
The Clone Saga already ends any discussion about Marvel ever taking character development for Peter Parker seriously. They had the opportunity and they muffed it colossally, mostly because of editorial infighting, not consumers voting with their wallets.
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>>89998725
>DeFalco also stole Thor from Simonson
Context for this? I quite liked DeFalco's Thor run. And he literally replaced Thor so t'werent all that regressive.
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>>89999286
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>>89999286
>Context for this? I quite liked DeFalco's Thor run. And he literally replaced Thor so t'werent all that regressive.
Walt was writing/arting both FF and Thor simultaneously. Memory's failing me but it's possible Walt wasn't making deadline predictably; DeFalco stepped in and took over both books at once saying that they weren't reminding him of what he loved reading as a kid. Walt stopped doing work for Marvel.
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>>89998854
I haven't read the Lyja stuff myself but like the idea, I must admit. Kinda disheartened to see it treated as such an afterthought.
That's a big factor against Tolworthy; his project in itself presumes that certain things would assuredly regress, and that certain changes wouldn't really stick. Sounds like a whole lotta Not Muh.
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>>89999314
whoops
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>>89999453
>>89999366
I thought Walt's FF was after he'd finished Thor?
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Always up for some FF comics.
Thanks OP.
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>>89999263
Yeah, but even with the Clone Saga there was something vaguely resembling logic (even if it is a dumb idea) when they had Norman Osborn come back and revealed as the master manipulator.
OMD was where characterization of Spider-Man and Mary Jane went out the window just so they could rollback to Single Spider-Man again. Which really went nowhere since most people didn't really give a shit about the new love interests in BND. Shit, I'm pretty sure more people cared about Peter Parker hooking up Carol Danvers than they did with fucking Carlie.
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>>89999484
Also IIRC he wasn't drawing Thor by the end of it's run. Unless you count layouts.
>>89999485
np
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>>89999484
>I thought Walt's FF was after he'd finished Thor?
I was buying them concurrently at the time.
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>>89999513
>than they did with fucking Carlie
I realize the industry would go tits up if they required writers and editors to submit to random drug testing, but that was just serious wishful thinking on their part.
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>>89999484
whoops again
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>>89999576
>>89999537
Did he have an FF run before '89? Because I just looked up the dates and they don't add up.
Unless they were reprints or exports.
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>>89999626
OH BOY HERE HE IS
brb bathroom break
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>>89999626
> shocked wiggle lines
I miss these
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>>89999485
Out of curiosity, what do you like about them?
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>>89999654
I'm getting better at this.
I still remember the exact words from one of my first storytimes.
>HALF HOUR PISS
>ARE YOU OKAY OP
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>>89999877
Also yeah, I checked. Simonson Thor ended in 1987. Simonson FF started in 1989.
Presumably Simonson Avengers bridged the gap, it was pretty short.
Are you Kang, anon?
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>>89999877
Frenz and Sinnott
Well, if you're going to rip off Kirby that hard, you might as well use his inker right
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>>89999924
From the thumbnail I thought that title said Bad Dragon for a second there.
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>>89999924
>Simonson Thor ended in 1987. Simonson FF started in 1989
Well fuck me then
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>>89999962
>>89999961
Sinnott leaving shortly after this has been cited as one of the myriad reasons that the FF lost their luster, yeah.
And it's a pity I'm busy posting these, because I've got a great Frenz/Kirby image.
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>>90000028
>>89999996
Funnily enough that Frenz-Kirby image is of Zarrko the Tomorrow Man, esteemed time traveler.
Hypercrisis getting all up in dis thread
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>>90000108
...CRAP I should've put Hypercrisis in the OP somewhere.
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>>90000028
I wonder what Marvel did that got them able to reproduce grey tones consistently by this point that they couldn't do with Hulk in the beginning. It's the same 4-color process print, same 64 color matrix, same pulp paper, same blankets and everything.
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>>90000135
whoops^3
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>le FF are le Great American Novel maymay
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>>90000159
Also yeah Simonson Avegners was mid88-early89
Oh man he's the guy who killed Marina? AND turned Dru crazy? What the fuck Walt?
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>>90000171
>le
you have to go back
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>>89997242
>This is the story of how Marvel died
>implying the greatest comic book company in the world is "dead"
lmao
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>>90000201
>he's the guy who killed Marina
http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Avengers_Vol_1_291
He was trying to make the Avengers great again
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>>90000228
Making the FF great again
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>>89999422
Johnny Storm romancing a Skrull, one of the FF's earliest enemies, is one of the greatest pieces of metaliterature that have never been used, since DeFalco either wrote them as a soap opera (616) or an already-established couple (MC2). The Fantastic Four are drowning with amazing unused concepts like these, all thrown away in favor of Doomwank and status-quo resets.
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>>90000228
>>90000171
Hey man if you've got a counterargument I'm eager to hear it. All POVs are welcome.
I'm not even wholly convinced myself. You can save me yet.
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>>90000358
>>90000233
See >>89998122 whambamtyfam
also pls delet this, I don't mind personally but it's poor storytime etiquette
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>>90000358
One cannot save those who damned themselves from day zero.
Besides, if the Great American Graphic Novel existed it would be Robert Crumb's whole work.
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>>90000358
> Well, he had a crush on you when he wrote the FF comic an' all
nice
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>>90000423
>looking at where Simonson Avengers began
>Gruenwald did the Kubik/Adaptoid story
Kek no wonder Monica was so useless.
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>>90000484
>>90000444
Not enough Communism
Also chekt
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Why don't you storytimers use the digital rips? Seriously.
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>>90000542
Why are you shitposters do whiny? Seriously.
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>>90000536
>>90000473
I can't help but wonder what in-universe Marvel Comics publications do about secret identities and everyday homelife.
They're admissible as courtroom evidence after all.
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>>90000536
that panel of ben autoerotically asphyxiating himself
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>>90000601
>I can't help but wonder what in-universe Marvel Comics publications do about secret identities and everyday homelife.
>They're admissible as courtroom evidence after all.
The books cover the adventures but not their personal lives or identities. This is canon btw.
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>>90000571
>because I'm too poor to afford digital comics
That explains why you only grew up with FF comics.
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>>90000601
Marvel published a bunch of in-universe comic books called "Marvels Comics" where Spider-Man is a monster, the X-Men are a bunch of mutants captured by the government and forced to work for them, etc. The F4 are the only ones who have an officially authorized comic book.
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>>90000601
BEEEEEEN
>>90000542
Hey man I'm just posting what I found.
So in answer to your question because I'm lazy and it's convenient.
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>>90000542
When we need your opinions we'll ask.
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>>90000636
Nigga what, digital rips are free just like all pirated comics.
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>>90000647
>>90000632
>>90000643
Source(s)? Sounds fun.
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>>90000647
> neck against table edge
even with that giant helmet, Wizzy should be in a wheelchair having his meals fed to him with a straw.
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>>90000674
>Source(s)? Sounds fun.
The same place you found out they're admissible in court, She-Hulk.
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>>90000674
>>90000671
Take it up with Empire man, I'm just posting what they uploaded
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>>90000724
>>90000714
I don't remember this.
Guess I'm gonna have to give it a thorough reread. This was after the #1 relaunch right?
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>>90000674
http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Marvels_Comics_Group_Vol_1
They should be in LibGen if you wanna read 'em, that's where I found the X-Men one for my storytime.
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>>90000847
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>>90000847
Yeah, it's blocked in Murica and Britbongistan. Have you tried using a proxy?
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>>90000892
FFS not watching what I'm clicking
Come to think of it that other ad page is a stupid idea too, I'll delete them both in a sec
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>>90000866
>>90000927
>DUN DUN DUUUUUUN
>>90000910
Nah, but I'll keep it in mind. It's no big loss desu, there're a ton of other places that I'm more familiar with anyway. The only thing I've never bee able to find is the Ashema one-shot, and I can live without it.
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>>89997242
>>90001032
Prelude over.
Here's the meat of it.
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>>90001100https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YxaaGgTQYM
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>>90001186
dammit, gotta make a call
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>>90001218
>dammit, gotta make a call
Bah!
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>>90001218
>>90001186
>>90001163
Now I get it, someone posted a 2-paneler from this the other day that I didn't understand before.
Clever Englehart. Shit on the company by taking the editorial policy directly into the narrative.
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>>90001218
>>90001295
Fun fact for first-time readers: a lot of these guys' dialogue is ripped word-for-word from Fantastic Four #1.
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>>90000601
>>90000643
Up until Marvels Comics it was assumed the Marvel Comics in-universe were generally about the same characters (though obviously without making secret identities public). I think when they did Marvels Comics they did a very drastic alteration (which sort of makes sense in a way).
There was that theory by the Great American Novel guy where FF is the only "real" comic in the Marvel Universe and everything else is exaggerated.
>>
>>90001472
Uh huh, that was when I realized he wasn't all there. Disregarding everything except your favourite as non-canon stinks of some mighty strong 'tism.
And of course nobody can point to Marvel Comics Group as a refutation, because it was published after "thing's stopped mattering".
>>
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>>90001611
>>
Ben looks like a lychee.
>>
>>90001651
Your mom looks like a lychee lmao
>>
>>90001636
>>90001651
I'm thinking more durian.
>>
>>90001734
Johnny you dick
>>
>>90001718
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lLNMbRRCyY
>>
>>90001827
More context: last time Mole Man showed up he'd finally become friends with the FF and was ready to overcome the social anxiety that had made him so bitter & lonely. A resounding emotional payoff to 30 years of stories.
>>
>>90001925
hurts, donit?
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>>90002020
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>>90002110
>>89999154
Peter SHOULD remain a millionaire forever desu.
I mean... shit isn't that just logical? Not to mention gratifying.
>>
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>>90002164
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>>90002205
moley no ;-;
>>
>>90002164
Sure but not in the way Slott wrote the whole thing. Peter basically got his company because of Ock.
>>
>>90000228
Wizard for President when?!
>>
>>90002521
>>89999250
>Come to think of it wasn't there a short time where Kitty remained intangible and unable to change back?
That sounds very familiar, yes.
Might've been the trauma caused by the team's apparent death against the Adversary. That was her shtick for a lot of early Excalibur.
>>
>>90002584
>Also Claremont had a different Mutant Massacre/Fall Of The Mutants thing planned that would've involved the Fury from Moore's Captain Britain
WHAT THE FUCK THAT SOUNDS AWESOME
>but Moore had major conflicts with Marvel
Bah. Dammit Alan.
He did go on to do a Fury story in 00s X-Men but, y'know, 00s X-Men.
>>
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>>90002650
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>>90002673
To clarify; these 'dreams' were all plots that the FF writer was planning to do if they'd stayed on.
So Busiekbolts dodged a bullet.
>>
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>>90002739
>>89999263
>They had the opportunity and they muffed it colossally, mostly because of editorial infighting
There a run-down of this? Especially that opportunity they muffled. All I know about Clone Saga came from a 5-minute overview and I've kept my distance since.
>>
>>89998431
Gru actually talked about it on one of the letters pages of late period Stern's Avengers. I can't recall which exact issue, but sometime during the Under Siege arc.
He's very brazen and unapologetic about the whole thing. It's one of those situations where someone who is clearly wrong thinks they are unassailably correct. I haven't been able to read any Gruenwald since coming across it.
>>
>>90002779
Is anyone else bothered by fucking DORMAMMU just sorta... being there
Englehart wrote some beloved Strange stuff, I expected better.
>>
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>>90002824
>>90002821
>He's very brazen and unapologetic about the whole thing
I gotta be honest.
This sounds pretty amazing.
>>
>>90002897
It brought an end to the best Avengers run ever, anon. That's the opposite of awesome.
And fwiw, progression or mot the FF were trash long before 89, even Simonson's run is limp.
And Johnny and Alicia?
Progression is one thing, Byrne is another.
>>
>>90002897
>>90002957
Maybe the actual text is super-obnoxious and will change my mind, but on its face it adds to his legend in a weird way.
>>
>>90002997
Plus I have a complicated relationship with Monica. So there's that.
>>
>>90001580
I know he also acknowledges that even some Fantastic Four stories could be exaggerated as well, based on that one back-up story in an issue of The Thing (specifically the Assistant Editor's Month issue, I forget the issue number).
I think the concept suggested would be interesting for an alt universe Marvel more grounded in reality though. In fact I think that's what they hinted at in the Logan movie for the Fox X-Men universe."Maybe a quarter of it happened.... And not like this."
>>
>>90003032
>progression or mot the FF were trash long before 89
Jokes on I'm not even an FF fan! Ahaaaaa!
But seriously I meant no offense. Apologies.
>>
>>90002957
I'd say that it's definitely arguable that Byrne was the first to start signifcantly regressing the Fantastic Four (and I think in turn, caused later writers to decide to do their own thing).
>>
>>90003086
The Byrne bits I've seen is pretty cash tho.
And I read it AFTER I learnt how much of a jackass he is & resoundingly soured on him.
>>
>>90003123
>>90003117
I can get believe that.
Those FF issues might be fun but I'll happily blame him for whatever.
>>
>>90003242
>>90003078
>I think the concept suggested would be interesting for an alt universe Marvel more grounded in reality though
I like that pitch too. Give fans both, see what happens. Especially now that the Ultimates line has freed up a space.
>>
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>>90003276
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>>90003297
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>>90003117
He only regressed Johnny and only at the beginning of the run. Also maybe Franklin but same thing goes for him, he started with slightly streamlined versions of the characters to take them in very different directions that anyone can see as maturation.
Also I sort of like Simonson's run (FF, not Avengers)
>>
>>90002078
>that thing at top right corner
Spooky.
>>
>>90002164
Something about Peter using his talents to make money doesn't sit right with me. I mean, isn't that the kind of situation that led to Ben's death in the first place?
Also what >>90002299 said. It doesn't really feel earned.
>>
>>90002299
>Peter basically got his company because of Ock.
Actually it does. Peter strikes as someone who could never reach his full potential after he became a super hero. Otto being a megalomaniacal abused his intelligence, went to college again and put himself as the head of a company, unlike Peter who only wanted a cozy life with his aunt and wife. Then after Octopus is gone Pete has to deal with being a millionaire n' shit, the concept isn't bad at all.
>>
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>>90003425
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>>90003862
remarkable page
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>>90002824
Classic Doom finger lasers.
>>
>>90003916
>>90003780
Is it entirely self-serving though? It creates a lot of jobs and the one issue I've seen of rich Peter emphasized philanthropy.
>>
>>90002673
>>90002779
Is that Dormammu?
>>
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>>90003963
>>90001350
That mmmmight've been me.
Specifically it was the "Ut's issue #2! Where are the Skrulls?" bit.
>>
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>>90003991
>>90003990
I know right?
I don't get it either.
>>
>>90003546
I liked Simonson's FF run and I kinda liked the Waid/Wieringo run and Hickman's run. I think what Byrne did worked for the title at the time but at the same time it invited others to roll back changes further or do some interpretation that might be a misread of the comic. I mean Waid was kinda/sorta guilty of this (as much as I like his run) and then you had others like Millar or Fraction or JMS that did their own thing which didn't work out that well.
>>
>>90004068
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUjGUWo4HrU
>>
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>>90004138
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>>90004165
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>>90004187
>>90004090
I haven't heard of JMS' run. What'd he do?
>>
Wait, who's the other Thing besides Ben?
>>
>>90004111
I like how his regular computer turns into an ultron-themed computer.
>>
>>90004259
>le happy mechanoid
>>
>>90002584
It was when she was hit by Harpoon's harpoon during Mutant Massacre. IIRC, that's the reason she couldn't be with the X-Men when the "died" in Dallas.
>>
>>90004305
>>90004263
Sharon Ventura. The 2nd Ms Marvel.
Ben met her in his rasslin' and Englehart did a story where they both end up in the same cosmic storm as #1. She get mutated, he gets DOUBLE mutated. She gets suicidal tendencies, he helps her get over them since he's been through it all before. Then they fuck. It's beautiful.
>>
>>90004373
>Then they fuck. It's beautiful.
Ben must have gotten prettyhard
>>
>>90003400
>no nuclear bomb in my country
Fuck you Doom, you hurt my feelings.
>>
>>90004452
>>90004432
YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
>>
>>90004432
>not "must have gotten his rocks off"
Anon please
>>
>>90004494
Sharon's p badass desu
>>
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>>90004545
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>>90003963
>"I want to be like you dad"
Too bad kid. Here comes Valeria!
>>
>>90004599
How long is this?
>>
>>90004795
>>90004622
Penultimate issue.
Errybody gets a dream. Then there's the wrap-up.
>>
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>>90004816
Fantastic whoops
>>90004612
oh shit whaddup
>>
>>90004850
It's a shame Fox doesn't own the Inhumans as well, because then at least Marlel wouldn't be pushing them as the new X-Men or whatever.
>>
>>90004934
>>90004924
What pisses me off about that is that they ignore everything that Inhumans Inhumans.
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>>90004954
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>>90004975
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>>90004629
>Dragon Man was in love with Sue
Did this ever get referenced when he became a good guy?
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>>90005165
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>>90005456
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>>90005487
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>>90005511
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>>90005547
>bro: "find me five children"
What did he mean by this?
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>>90005569
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>>90005600
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>>90005456
Poor Sharon. This makes things really fucking awkward, I say the Skrull retcon was better.
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>>90005622
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>>90005654
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>>90005645
Agreed, plus I just really hate Johnny and Alicia together, it makes no sense to me.
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>>90005600
Based Herc.
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>>90005692
>>90005645
That's the "Not Muh" thing I was referring to earlier.
Although to his credit he made a compelling case. And those couples were allegedly Lee/Kirby's endgame. The argument poses that Ben & Sharon were exactly what each other needed at the time, but not forever. And that cucking Sharon would fill the tragic character niche that Ben was leaving behind.
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>>89997242
According to Englehart's site, everything he ever did is great and anything that wasn't great is the fault of editors who didn't understand his vision.
He wrote some of the best mainstream comics of the '70s, but I find his '80s work much more uneven.
Also I never got why he kept on ending! every! sentence! with an exclamation point! Lee and Kirby were trained to write that way because of printing issues, but Englehart didn't write that way at Marvel in the '70s.
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>>90005815
The bottom exchange is especially poignant IMO since Johnny had matured into a responsible team leader by this point.
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>>90005872
WHOOP5
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>>90005900
>>90005821
Like I said, I've noticed a bigass disconnect between pre & post 90s content long before finding out about this story. It just illustrates something I'd believe anyway.
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>>90005951
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>>90005966
Things get a little on the nose in this finishing stretch.
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>>90005996
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>>90006028
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>>90006049
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>>90005951
Oh, the disconnect is real, like the X-Men going to a more nostalgic model even before Claremont left.
I just don't really trust Englehart's accounts, I guess.
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>>90006113
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>>90006141
>>90006127
Understandable. This kerfuffle was just the earliest of a long list of shifts.
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>>90006185
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>>90006213
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>>90006252
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>>90006276
>M'Name's Frank!
>that shirt
THE 90S HAVE ARRIVED
Oh and if it wasn't obvious: Mr John Harkness, the writer of all of these issues, is the pseudonym Steve Englehart would use on projects he was ashamed to be on.
>>
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>>90006363
Fin.
Hope people enjoyed.I've got some extra "What If" esque stuff if anybody wants more
>>
>>90006363
What, Alan Smithee not good enough for ya?
>>
>>90006412
Thanks famalamadingdong.
>>
>>90000769
Oh shiiiiiiiiit. I've read that Thor one.
That explains why it was so weird!
>>
>>90006363
holy shit
>>
>>90000643
>>90000769
Gotta download?
>>
>>90009992
http://libgen.io/comics/index.php?s=marvels+comics+2000
>>
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>>90010209
>the proxy trick works
well hot damn
Thanks a bunch dude
>>
Thank you
>>
>>90002821
Wait a tick Under Siege was a year before Monica got written out.
What is this rusemanship?
>>
>>90002821
>hypercompetant black chick gets introduced & fasttracked to the top of the Avengers hierarchy
>THAT'S CAP'S JOB REEEEEE GET OUT
Truly, he was one of us ;_;7
>>
>>90000356
>The Fantastic Four are drowning with amazing unused concepts like these, all thrown away in favor of Doomwank and status-quo resets.
Which is why FF was always the most frustrating book to be a fan of.
>>
>>
>>90000356
Yeah as much as DeFalco's run had problems I could still see some potential in it.
>and status-quo resets
They gotta stop doing this. Sure, fix stupid shit that shouldn't have happened, but one more rollback on Johnny is a no-no.
>>
>>90004237
JMS was the one who wrote the title during Civil War. His explanation for Reed supporting superhero registration had to do with what happened to his uncle's experiences with HUAC.
https://them0vieblog.com/2013/09/11/j-michael-straczynskis-run-on-the-fantastic-four-civil-war-reviewretrospective/
>>
>>89999250
>Come to think of it wasn't there a short time where Kitty remained intangible and unable to change back? I remembered seeing that in FF/X-Men but can't remember how it happened.
The Marauders attack on the Morlocks and subsequently the X-Men.
>>
>>90000253
Not really.
Simonson was given explicit instructions to write a story that was a proto-version of Avengers Disassembled. Wipe out the Stern Avengers team.
The carrot to do so, was that he'd be able to use Sue and Reed in the rebuilt team. Walt was then told point blank, after adding them, that he couldn't use them anymore and was given Fantastic Four to write (after Englehart ragequit) to write to keep him from bailing.
Also, Simonson left FF because editorial (rightfully) balked at the fact that he wanted to retcon ALL of the Doom appearances from after the Battle of Baxter Building (FF #40-41) as Doombots.
DeFalco and editorial were OK with the Doombot thing as a short term patch for bad Doom stories, but Simonson's idea went too far and he was let go/DeFalco retconned the opening scene from FF #350 as being video footage Doom recorded and then had one of his flunkies insert new audio to create a passable cover story for why Doom let an eight year old steal his country from him.
Also not mentioned here in this thread (shocking enough) was that the dream sequences in this arc were ALL planned storylines that Englehart had planned for the book, before he got fired, modified to include Sue and Reed.
In retrospect, I really wish we had gotten the Doom War storyline teased in this issue. It would have been a great story if Englehart had been allowed to flesh it out.
>>90003546
I'd argue that Byrne ruined Johnny's ENTIRE character by having him cuck Thing. And when Byrne rage quit, no one at Marvel had the balls to immediately break Alicia/Johnny up and reunite Thing/Alicia. At least until Tom DeFalco decided to just say fuck it and retconned the entire Johnny/Alicia romance and marriage as a Skrull plot.
>>
>>90005703
It John Byrne being a shit.
Byrne was dead set upon making Thing utterly and completely miserable because he thought Thing deserved ZERO happiness and be shitted on constantly.
He has outright said he purposely broke up Thing and Alicia because he thought Thing should NEVER be allowed a girlfriend and should be a forever alone.
Which makes me wonder if he was just projecting his hatred of Chad Thundercocks (which Ben Grimm was, before becoming the Thing) onto Thing or just shitting on Thing as an extended fuck you to Jack Kirby, given how Kirby has repeatedly stated that Thing=Jack Kirby in terms of fictional stand-ins....
>>
>>89999250
Ironically Claremont (when he wrote Fantastic Four) tried his best to have Kitty join the FF. Excalibur was finally being put out of it's misery and he wanted to take control over her and have her be Reed's apprentice.
Marvel shot him down and shot him down big time.
As for Rogue, ironically Claremont these days WANTS Rogue to be considered an Avenger. He made a big point of saying that he wishes Marvel would fight Fox over the movie rights to Rogue, Mystique, and Sabretooth to make them shared characters ala Wanda and Quicksilver, since they debuted in non-X-Men books.
>>
>>90014459
I think Byrne's bad treatment of Thing was more him completely missing the point of what Kirby wanted with the character.
Byrne's a huge Kirby "purist" who hates anything people do to modify Kirby's characters in general. He most likely fixated on the tragedy angle of Thing and decided to up it to eleven, along with amping Alicia's implied adulterous nature (see her throwing herself at Silver Surfer) on the grounds that he most likely thought Kirby always intended Alicia to be a slut and canonize it.
>>
>>90014376
>Also, Simonson left FF because editorial (rightfully) balked at the fact that he wanted to retcon ALL of the Doom appearances from after the Battle of Baxter Building (FF #40-41) as Doombots.
He effectively did that, though; the story saw print. He left because they were treating Weezy and his friends like shit.
>Walt Simonson, who'd been writing and drawing Fantastic Four while his wife was being brushed aside from New Mutants, followed Claremont out the door. Years later, he characterized the company's behavior as "abrupt, rude, and disrespectful," and railed against the mothballing of veteran creators. "The atmosphere at Marvel was becoming less enjoyable... the scope for good creative work more limited." Marvel: The Untold Story
The Englehart dream sequences were indeed stories that would've been cool to see fleshed out, and Byrne's run was more "regressive" than a lot of runs that follow this one.
>>
>>90014459
>>90014621
His treatment of Ben mirrors that of his work on Vision. Seems he doesn't think "abnormal" human leads should get the girl in the end.
>>
>>90014660
And on that last note, as well as the OP
1. Englehart was a fool to think that putting the main characters of a monthly into limbo wouldn't get undone by the time he was gone. Anything this decision had in common with DeFalco's Silver Age fetishism or Gruenwald's favoritism is a decidedly lesser explanation than the simple fact that people want to read about the Fantastic Four in a Fantastic Four book. He's the best writer on Doc, Cap, and the Avengers to this day, but he's clearly letting his massive ego get the better of him on this one.
2. This "problem" wasn't unique to Marvel; both companies began overfocusin on their marketability around this time, and status quo was a big part of making sure things remained safe enough to make money. Again: people want to read about their favorites first and foremost. They'll never stay gone for long.
3. This is much less of a big deal considering Simonson, Waid/Wieringo, Carey, bits of Hickman etc.--the runs comparable in quality to Lee/Kirby--all came after Englehart left.
tl;dr Let's let this meme die, please.
>>
>>90014689
He's the anti-Alan Moore!
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