No matter how Byrne and Lee try to spin it. He was still right

>>89755177
I'm not sure why anyone would listen to Byrne or Lee. They're terrible writers, and one of them is even a bad artist.

But the biggest comics do come out on time, they are meeting deadlines. You're full of shit.

>>89755360
Civil War 2 was Marvel's biggest book of 2016 and it was months late and STILL shit.

>>89755360

Marvel is literally a laughing stock for its weird as fuck late shipping and releases to the point where they spoil their own events.

>>89755177
pity he had to let his own pettiness dictate some publications.

>>89755177
Lee's point wasn't anything really anti-Shooter that I know of, though. He had a point in that a writer should be able to experiment and explore ideas, sometimes beyond comfortability. His story of Harry being a drug addict was a big step in the direction of "comics don't need to just be black and white." It was controversial, but it also really worked in the long run as a story and an influence on mainstream comics to explore themes and ideas beyond just super heroics.

People here love to slam Lee, but the fact is not only is he an important staple in comic history, but he was actually a strong pioneer and fighter for creativity in comics.

>>89756179
I like Stan just fine. The best thing about shooterfags, is they are never going to get what they want.

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There can be no forgiveness.

>>89755177
Stan Lee defended Shooter

>>89756179
Im pretty sure hes talking about Jim Lee, not Stan

>>89756461
Jim Lee badmouthed Shooter? That's new for me.

>>89756433
>one shit event but dozens of great stories vs only shit events and stories and a few good stories sprinkled in between

>>89755177
>Shooter knew that. And thats why marvel is a mess today
He also stenciled the logo of a competitor up on the walls of the Bullpen every time it went out of business, to intimidate talent from ever considering working elsewhere.

He called talent at DC and told them Marvel was buying DC out and that if they didn't play ball they wouldn't keep their jobs. Byrne was the only one who was upset enough by this to tell someone higher up and it resulted in DC legal contacting Marvel legal.

Shooter wanted all the X-books gone, he hated mutants and apparently the money they brought in.

And most importantly, Jim Shooter's incessant anger that he wasn't running DC where he believed he belonged led to him begging toy companies to make a line to compete with DC's largely forgotten Super Heroes line (which was something like 5 characters). Toy manufacturers said they wouldn't make an entire line of characters unless Shooter could guarantee kids bought all of them, and when he asked how he could do that, their marketing people came up with The Event Book which we have been cancerously blessed with ever since.

Jim did a lot of things right but he was an unabashed cunt who thought that was good leadership, and genuinely earned Frank Miller coldcocking him in front of the staff and cost Marvel one of its better creators. Because of that DC got The Dark Knight Year One while Daredevil sunk.

He was fired for a reason, OP.

> artist need to be held to deadlines
They always have been at Marvel, whether it was Virginia Romita managing that in the 1980s or the present-day policy of looking the other way with tracers (Land's only a symptom and he's hardly alone).

You're probably under 30 and think you know dick about how the big two operated in the 70s and 80s, but realistically you only know some stuff from CBR and Wikipedia.

Don't lecture us on Jim Shooter.

>>89756395
Hi casual.
>>89756461

>>89756563
>he wanted DC dead
His only, and worst, mistake. And then he whined how mistreated he was at DC when he went back to writing LoSH; go figure.

>>89756563
>Don't lecture us on Jim Shooter.
Says the anon who doesn't provide sauce for all those evil things Shooter did.

>>89756563
pretty good oc.
for a fake

I really can't stand Shooter. The only thing I can say that he did well was make damn sure the books were connected together. The X-books weren't a self-contained universe like they did in the 90's.

>>89756611
>>89756635
> prove it!!!!111

I just did. I've been doing this longer than you have and most of what I know predates internet forums. Don't like it? Tough shit if you don't believe me, that doesn't make it untrue because last I checked this wasn't a fucking court of law.

>>89756657
The biggest tragedy is that he was the last EiC at Marvel who took the E part seriously. If he hadn't been such a cancerous piece of shit as a human being we'd still be singing his praises.

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>>89756716
>you don't like my alternative facts? Get off my lawn!

>>89756716
>I just did
you didn't. I don't see any source

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Can we post our favourite editors?

>>89756823
>Fuk thy rubbish, theur fookin' clart noggin!

>>89756484
I want sauce on that.

>>89756716
>The biggest tragedy is that he was the last EiC at Marvel who took the E part seriously. If he hadn't been such a cancerous piece of shit as a human being we'd still be singing his praises.
Exactly. I hate Shooter for a lot of reasons (Hank backhanding Janet and blaming it on the artist or Carol being raped by her own son), but he actually got shit done. All those crossovers in the late 80's like Mutant Massacre, Fall of the Mutants, Atlantic Attacks, Inferno, and Acts of Vengeance actually made sure all the 616 heroes would interact in stories that would draw them in.

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>>89756563
>And most importantly, Jim Shooter's incessant anger that he wasn't running DC where he believed he belonged led to him begging toy companies to make a line to compete with DC's largely forgotten Super Heroes line (which was something like 5 characters). Toy manufacturers said they wouldn't make an entire line of characters unless Shooter could guarantee kids bought all of them, and when he asked how he could do that, their marketing people came up with The Event Book which we have been cancerously blessed with ever since.

Are you talking about Kenner's Super Powers Collection? Because that line was a hugely successful competitor to Masters of the Universe, and basically created the modern superhero toy industry by focusing on straightforward sculpts with limited or concealed gimmicks.

I mean you're right about Secret Wars being a massive cash in, but be real here- he was right to feel threatened.

>>89756875
t. Tom DeFalco

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The man's ego was so enormous that he attempted to create an entire separate line of superhero comics outside the MU *just* so he could print a book that didn't have to mention Stan Lee on the credits page. No, that was literally his reasoning (all mainline Marvel books were contractually obligated to credit Stan whether or not he was involved).

Not only did it tank but it became a laughingstock to the point that Star Brand ended up being given the business over at DC. Here we see Len and John not only poking fun at Star Brand's #1 cover pose, but drawing Jim's utterly broken skin, screaming about his place in the sun like Kaiser fucking Wilhelm and finally literally shooting himself in the foot (subtle, I know). This was the "OH NO YOU DIN'T" that was heard round the world when it came out.

>>89756915
I guess you also hate Valiant too?

>>89756885
t. Tom Brevoort

>>89756915
t. John Byrne

the only laughingstock is that page you posted, as people really hate Byrne's pettiness.

New Universe was a failure sales-wises, because Marvel was competing with itself, and they already had like 90% market share

>>89756941
>even Brevoort hates DeFalco
Marvel really sucks.

>>89756563
Who was the comic writer that Jim Shooter passive aggressively put in Secret Wars 2 to get beat up?

>>89756971
and they will never be redeemed again.
they killed FF, they made Spider-Man and X-Men shitty, and their other properties have an appeal of an obscure z-lister

>>89756970
>t. John Byrne
That guy who makes photoshopped Star Wars comics for Dynamite Entertainment?

>>89757000
Star Trek. But then again, same SHIT

>>89756879
>he was right to feel threatened
No, he wasn't. No one at Marvel was pressuring him to license plastic toys, and while Super Heroes made good money it never translated into improved book sales at DC and post-Crisis most of that line went away, just like Kenner did.

It wasn't careful economic behavior, it was Shooter once again being mad that the company he couldn't run was being successful at anything. In the short term yes, the Secret Wars toy line was successful because he did as he was told and interweaved the books such that zombies bought them all, but in the long term he encouraged editors to force good comic books into events that CHANGE THINGS FOREVER artificially.

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>>89756996
But of course, all this is Shooter's fault. He's probably laughing with joy and pride, because his revenge on Marvel has been a success! A success!

>>89756930
No, Valiant was his chance to shed his demons and he did better at helming an indie cape book company than almost everyone else. He shone as an editor and Valiant produced great books.

As I said before, he was an excellent EDITOR.

>>89755177
http://jimshooter.com/2011/10/ultimate-comics-all-new-spider-man-1.html/

>>89757022
kek. Fucking Shooter. Can't get angry at him, though

Still, is it possible that Bendis and Quesada are his illegitimate offsprings?

>>89757039
>As I said before, he was an excellent EDITOR.
Ohhh, backpedaling. I love it.

>>89757050
Someone should send this to Bendis' tumblr. Every day.

>>89757015
>No one at Marvel was pressuring him to license plastic toys
You know, marvel is a business. Just saying.
Making profit from new venues is, I don't know, a good idea? Especially if your properties are popular?

>the only laughingstock is that page you posted, as people really hate Byrne's pettiness.

We all hate his pettiness but if you genuinely think Legends was not critically acclaimed and one of the breakouts of the CoIE books, you're confusing your opinion with what happened, before you were even born.

Everyone had a great laugh at this when it came out and all your millennial labeling won't rewrite history.

>>89757057
No, because both came from the indie market.

>>89757074
Nonsense! Any anon knows more about business than businesspersons!

>>89757096
>Everyone
Nah, only autists. We DC fans don't believe in taking potshots at creators from other companies.

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I just felt like posting this

>>89757102
>No, because both came from the indie market.
They could be sleepers? Or maybe they are clones of Shooter, only retarded?

>>89757096
Cogburn Byrne was a laughinstock long before millenium. It's good to remind how he bashed Cockrum, Kirby and Gerber

>>89757121
>We DC fans don't believe in taking potshots at creators from other companies

In almost every other case you are absolutely correct here. DC cancelled The Boys when it depicted a Stan Lee/Hitler fusion with embarrassing sexual fetishes, and handed the publication rights back to Ennis for free because they wanted no part of it.

Shooter was a special kind, though.

>>89757126
Some time later, he got cucked out of his own publishing house. And since he had already burned his bridges at the Big Two, he couldn't go back. Bravo Jim.

>>89757128
Bendis is only a writer and Quesada wasn't exactly a new Shooter. So...

>>89757176
I hate to say it, but show us on this doll, where Shooter had touched you

>>89757186
And the comic book market never reached the sales of 80s either

>>89757156
>he bashed Cockrum, Kirby and Gerber
Tsk tsk. That's how you end up making "comics" with a computer.

>>89757176
>Shooter was a special kind, though.
Maybe. After all, he wanted DC dead.

>>89755360
>But the biggest comics do come out on time

the last two big events have had delays

>>89757237
Warren Ellis wouldn't have lasted much in Shooter's Marvel.

>>89757096
You're not wrong, and you can also make your point without spluttering about millennials like a bitter old woman

>>89756915
>Want to stop being shackled to an old miser who devalues everyone working at the company.
>Egotistic.

You what

>>89757262
Good

>>89756433
Some of those tie-ins were great, like Peter struggling with whether or not he should sell the solid gold notebook or not for easy money,

>>89757156
Byrne's shenanigans were hardly a secret in the late 80s but he was still able to turn out top selling books on deadline, and when he wasn't he handed art over to other people. The key part here being top selling books.

You also can't shit on the man who reset Big Blue Boy Scout into the definitive take no matter how many times his successors thought they'd improve that. Or un-lobotomizing Lois Lane after 50 years with Clark doing the reveal to her only to have her reply "Yes, Smallville, I've known for months." "But HOW?!?" "I'm an investigative journalist you retard." Or Maggie Sawyer, a character informed by being a lesbian without it being her only salient character trait. I can't credit him for Trump Luthor because another writer handed him that idea.

Byrne's an irritable manchild who was generally FORGIVEN his sins (e.g. wiping the continuities of books he took over but throwing tantrums when other writers did the same) because of how hard he worked.

>>89757336
>Byrne's an irritable manchild who was generally FORGIVEN his sins
not really. he is considered a pedo

>>89757262
>>89757302
>Hallo? This is Jim Shooter. Warren, they tell me that you cannot deliver the latest issue of Planetary. Why is that? ... What? You vomited on your typewriter??? Jesus Christ! OK, buy a new one and--! What? You spent all your money on beer??? OK, I will ask Mantlo to make a fill-in issue and-- Warren, did you just THREATEN me with slapping my shit???

>>89757336
Any time Byrne gets brought up I think of that Aquaman action figure story

>>89757336
It sounds like you live on an alternative earth.
People appreciate some of the classic Byrne's book, but the opinion on him is divided to say the least. It's literally the first time in my life I see someone defending THAT hard Byrne on the internet.

It's like you were in a coma for the last 20 years and discovered the internet for the first time

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>>89757197
>I'm a millennial, I require hyperlinks

That's nice kid

>>89757220
>After all, he wanted DC dead
It's more like pic related. If he couldn't have his beloved, nobody could.

>>89757378
You can either move the goalposts with your shitposting, or have an actual discussion.
Your choice. So far, you sound like some butthurt byrnefag

>>89757000
The guy who took over Star Brand from Jim and in one story nuked Shooter's home town out of pure malice.

>>89757398
And who ruined Scarlet Witch.

>>89757364
It's a pretty great story. Gives me a smile every time I think about it

>>89757378
>hyperlinks

Holy fuck you really are old


Are you one of those OG Usenet pricks?

>>89757364
Care to share?

>>89757357
So that's why he is still a virgin...

>>89757425
This was the beginning of the end for him. It's one thing to have opinions, it's another to shit on the fans of the book you've been given because your total autism refuses to accept the concept "sentient robot." He tried to have a similar argument about Captain Carrot once and got completely wrecked, on his own fucking forum (where he requires all members to register with their legal names and provide proof of identity).

John was not slapped enough as a kid by his parents. Maybe it could have broken his interest in M/f on the side, who knows.

>>89757506
keep in mind that this is an anecdote shared by Byrne himself on his forum

>In my first studio in my former house, there was a fireplace with a wide mantle. I set my Super Powers action figures in a line along this shelf (in alphabetical order, which hardly anyone ever seemed to pick up on!) One afternoon, during one of my summer parties, I wandered into the studio to find a small clutch of my fellow professionals had gathered in there. One of these was a good friend, who had brought with him his wife and small daughter (maybe three years old).

>I walked in to find her sitting on the floor playing with my Aquaman figure. "She was bored," said my friend, "so I gave her Aquaman to play with. He doesn't matter." His exact words, burned into my brain. I took the toy from the child and replaced it on the shelf. "Does to me," I said.

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>>89757595
That's Movieblob-tier.

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>>89757570
>He tried to have a similar argument about Captain Carrot once
MOTHERFUCKER
I JUST READ THAT SERIES YESTERDAY
AND HE WANTED TO RUIN IT

>>89757595
>>89757662
> still gets upset at the nickname Spidey or when people don't hyphenate Spider-Man
> created a Spider-Man reboot so fucking dire that the company publicly disowned it after the backlash
> tried to canonize a genetic relationship between Norman Osborn and Flint Marko to explain having the same hair (and btw I've seen people with this exact hair, Steve Ditko did not invent it and it doesn't require rationalization)

The saddest part is that if you've seen anything he's drawn in the last 10 years your first instinct would involve a barn and a shotgun.

>>89757645
>That's Movieblob-tier.
I hate comparing the two since Byrne has a body of work to stand on and Bob has problems just standing, but damn if you aren't right.

>>89757595
few things that are funny, he doesn't mention the pro who said that. and another thing, I wonder if the kid cried if he took the toy from kid's hands?

>>89757662
James Marsden keeps himself so fucking /fit/ that literally the only evidence of his actual age is metal fillings in his teeth.

>>89756563
There needs to be more documentaries about the comic book industry. The only really good one I've seen is Rise and Fall of the Comic Empire.

>>89755177
What's with the crater face?

>>89756490
>vs two decades previous with COUNTLESS good stories an ZERO events shit, or otherwise.

>>89756578
>osborn a drug addict
>Jim Lee
Yeah, I'm the casual.

>>89758082
Are you really a retard, or do you pretend to be?
If you thin that comics from 60s and 70s were good, I can only pity your shit taste

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>>89758129
Subtle. Here's your (You).

>>89758145
Go back to sleep grandpa

>>89757595
>>89757761
Byrne is just so sad. He's done some great work over the years, but he's also the worst combination of a man-child, and a stubborn old man.

>>89758082
Do Avengers vs Defenders count as an event?

>>89756461
If that's the case my bad, thought OP meant Stan.

>>89757570
>Captain Carrot
What does he have against Discworld?

>>89756611
Not that anon, but he already gave examples.

>>89758277
of source? where?

>>89757057
No, entirely because unlike Shooter, those two retards don't know how to keep consistency. They're obsessed with the next big thing, where Shooter would only make major changes if they worked within a story.

>>89758314
Why not just look it up? Why does he need to link everything?

>>89758381
>still refuses to admit he's making shit up

>>89758381
sources can be anything that can be checked, interview, magazine, book, biography, not only internet link

also, the burden of proof is on the anon, who made the claim.

meanwhile, give me a link, and I can post an essay on shooter era

>>89758424
*time

here's the link, have a nice reading
http://rsmwriter.blogspot.com/2016/06/jim-shooter-second-opinion.html

>>89758192
It's like Shooter, you have to be fair and take the good and the bad together.

Unlike say Quesada who was just a giant fucking turd burrito whose legacy was defending OMD on the Howard Stern show.
> but marvel knights
did jack shit to save Marvel. You know what saved Marvel? The thing that Ike "the kike" Perlmutter has the biggest tantrum over instead of gratitude for, rights sales to movie studios.

Even going public didn't save Marvel (and if you'd read their prospectus when that happened, it wasn't much of a surprise). It was literally selling their firstborn to strangers.

Quesada gets nothing. GOOD DAY, SIR

>>89758393
I didn't even write the original post about Shooter being a dick, retard.

>>89758504
I guess it'd be a waste of time asking you for proof of that?

>>89758471
You know what was the biggest problem with MK? Deadlines. The artists didn't keep the deadlines

>>89758534
Apparently, the anon has a lot of time to shitpost, but not enough time to actually provide some factual info

>>89758453
The neoconservative believes he will die from lack of importance if he cannot provide a contrarian viewpoint, as though everything must be categorized in black and white instead of allowing for the truth to be more complicated than that, and his intellectual prowess can only be demonstrated by revisionism. He is no better than his counterpart who simply uses a litmus test to exile or virtue signal a target and arguably worse since unlike the tumblrista he has the intellect to know better.

I do however appreciate that this article manages to point out HOW Shooter did his job well even if I disagree with his notion that there was no merit behind why people loathed him.

>>89758453
>Gary Groth
ahhh, the original SJW / tumblr of comics, before it was hip to be one

>>89758591
We called his publication "The Comics Urinal" for a reason.

>>89758585
There obviously WAS a merit in the criticism, but frankly, it's also obvious that you're going to hate a boss that is demanding, over a boss who is chilly willy

Claremont himself said decades later that while he hated Shooter during his tenure, he later did admit during one of the lectures to some students that Shooter was right in many ways, at least with the "every issue is someone's first" policy

Nobody is perfect, but no one can deny that his era was really pure gold in term of the legendary runs and diversity and new ideas and creativity.

Books like Power Pack, Cloak and Dagger could ONLY happen then and only then they were capable of being succesfull (at least Power Pack was)

>>89758696
we are having a discussion

>>89758585
Are you quoting or copypasting?

>>89758608
>We

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>>89758534

>>89758760
are you trying to be funny?

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Even with all the bickering I really fucking love that this thread is around. I was starting to think that everyone here was a 17 year old mouth breathing meme-sucking retard. But knowing there are still at least pretend oldfags who know names from the 80s fills my heart with hope.

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>>89758794
You wanted proof I didn't write it

>>89758804
How possible it would be for 40+ year olds to post here?

>>89758813
>>89758760
>24%
Man, your battery is almost as empty as your brain.

>>89758804
I didn't get into comics until 2002, but I went full throttle into the classic stuff. 95% of my collection is before 1995. I just couldn't get into newer stuff from the big two.

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>>89757595
>in alphabetical order

>>89758875
>HURR YOU CAN'T PROVE THAT WASNT YOU
>*Post pictures that it wasn't me*
>HURR YOUR BATTERY'S LOW
>*Insert random insult*

>>89758924
Diff anon, I think they probably meant the proofs for the allegations of Shooter being evil.

I mean, don't quote me on that, it's a lucky guess from me

>>89758950
Except he wrote
>>89758534 to >>89758504

He was trying to be clever by assuming I wrote the original thing so I can't provide proof I wasn't that anon in the first place.
My only point was why he can't just fact check himself since he clearly has enough time to shove his head promptly up his ass. It's not like the original anon is the only person with the power to use search engines. If he's wrong, ducking prove him false instead of just expecting everything to be provided.

>>89759027
Then who was phone?

>>89759059
The guy who can't into search engines

>>89755177
The Jim Shooter era gave us:
-three of the best Captain America runs (Byrne, DeMatteis, Gruenwald)
-the best stories of Claremont's X-Men run
-two of the best Spider-Man runs (Stern and DeFalco)
-the best Avengers run (Stern)
-the best Thor run (Simonson)
-the best Daredevil run (Miller)
-the second best F4 run (Byrne)
-one of the best Iron Man runs (O'Neil)
-Moench/Sienkiewicz Moon Knight
-fun licensed comics (Rom, Transformers, Godzilla etc.)
-fun or groundbreaking mini-series like: Wolverine, Hercules, Elektra Assassin, Longshot, Cloak and Dagger, Squadron Supreme, Hawkeye, US 1
-also: Epic Comics, New Mutants, West Coast Avengers, Alpha Flight, Groo, Power Pack

You simply can't fucking argue with these results. There is no other Marvel era that came close to the line-wide quality of Shooter's. I would fucking kill to have comics half as good as these nowadays.

>>89759160
It's worth noting that marvel's groo era was the longest, with around 200 (?) issues

>>89759207
And it still hasn't been fully reprinted ;_;

>>89759160
Also Shang-Chi, Power Man & Iron Fist, Micronauts, Conan the Barbarian, etc. etc. etc.
The list has no end

>>89759299
I think some of those started before Shooter, but they reached their peak during his era

>>89757050
>He’s not stupid, untalented or unskilled. It seems as though he phoned this one in. Easy money. Why not, if the Marvel editorial bozos are clueless enough to pay for six pages worth of story fragments crammed into 21 pages, with reckless disregard for, to paraphrase Twain, slovenliness of form?

Call of the century.

>>89758646
>chilly willy

>>89759425
I only wanted to be a sophisticated adult in a kelly way

>>89755177
He was a serial killer in his free time, wasn't he?

>>89758804
I'm less than two years into comics but since I'm ignorant of a lot of the industry's history I rarely do more than lurk.

>>89755177
he was the Trump of Marvel Comics: everyone hated him for how he worked, but he got the fucking job done with some truly amazing results (see >>89759160)

>>89760111
>Trump
>got the fucking job done with some truly amazing results
It is at this point when you know the thread is over.

>>89756563
>DC's largely forgotten Super Heroes line (which was something like 5 characters)

Now I know you are full of shit.

>>89758471
Movie rights was definitely kept Marvel going. They did make some terrible deals though. The absurd Hulk deal in particular. Has there ever been any details on how that even happened?

I can't wait for the day Perlmutter is gone. He's like the ridiculous evil boss from a bad comedy.

>>89757000
Fuck you...those Trek stories are fun.

>>89757364
I'd like to see how you'd react to an uncontrolled child of a guest fucking with your shit.

>>89760612
that's basically a no-win situation

>>89759160
>>89759299
GI Joe brah it was developed from an old Nick Fury pitch and Shooter sold the idea to Hasbro

he also help start the direct to market for comic along with the guy from Mile High Comics they started the whole comic book stores getting fair treatment as opposed to them selling old 2nd hand comics left overs from grocery stores

>Smonson
>best Thor run
Beta Ray Bill and the Trip to Hel and all or great, but the whole latter half is weak as fuck.

>>89760696
The father was a dick though, if byrne bothered too get the figures they clearly matter to him. Its not so much about a person not respecting aquaman but not respecting another irl person.

>>89760612
Why would I collect toys?

>>89760231
To be fair. There is some truth that liberals, and a lot of writers are liberals, HATE with their guts, the conservative approach, even if it gets shit done

>>89760827
>Simonson
>not the best Thor run

we are reaching levels of contrarianism that shouldn't be possible

>>89760921
>contrarian
I said I like parts of it anon, but it sputters out.

>>89756563
>he wanted the x-books gone

[citation needed]

>>89756915
bullshit. marvel had a shit load of non cape works during the late 70s/early 80s. Marvel Graphic Novel, Epic, New Universe and a bunch of other stuff.

>>89759396

I'd say Marvel Comics reached their peak with Shooter in general. He would've massively pissed off the superstar artists of the following era, but when those who were running Marvel then tried to accomodate them they still couldn't be satisfied.

>>89758011
either a burn victim or had a health threatening case of acne

>>89755177
>And thats why marvel is a mess today

Noooooooo, Marvel is dying in comics because they are pandering to the SJW's and Feminist's that aren't buying their comics.

>>89755177
Marvel is a mess today because they have all their eggs in movies, letting their comic division rot. It doesn't matter if they make money off comics anymore, and that's more than evident by how they allow their writers to do whatever they want as long as they make a movie tie in comic plot or two.

>>89760111
>he was the Trump of Marvel Comics

But he didn't bankrupt Marvel and then needed a bailout, that happened AFTER Jim was kicked out and Marvel invested hard into the speculation market

>>89757050
I disagree on his assessment of Romita Sr. While his web slinging could be floaty, his art made for some of the most dynamic and addictive action pieces in the franchise. I also loved how he drew the costume, and even if the thought was the web line was his mouth, I never saw it. Ditko had an incredible sense of gravity, but Romita Sr. could make someone filing taxes look like the most intense thing you've ever witnessed.

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>>89761642
>Marvel is dying in comics because they are pandering to the SJW's and Feminist's

Now where'd you get that idea

>>89756989

Steve Gerber.

>>89761684
>Marvel is a mess today because they have all their eggs in movies, letting their comic division rot.

The print division has not made money in probably a decade or more
It is just a cheap way of keeping intellectual properties
If they had to survive on their own there would be no more print comics other than Archie being printed.
Though Archie is doing a good job of killing off their family readership with all the faggotry

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Oh, and while we're giving Shooter his due for revitalizing Marvel, it needs to be pointed out that he ran a predatory market when it came to competition.

Print cape books? He's got the natural advantage.
Print a completely different genre? He'll launch a clone of your lineup and run it JUST long enough to draw readers away from you then shitcan it.

I had LCS managers tell me that the only 2 genres safe from Marvel were manga and porn.

>>89761972
>Gerber
>Shooter

pic related

I don't think the industry's had a comparable situation since excepting Ken Penders and Archie.

>>89756611
>>89756635
>>89760375
kids these days

>>89762144
>old man yells at the Cloud

>>89762054
>Archie is doing a good job of killing off their family readership with all the faggotry
You sound like the autists who think the SEGA books are the real money at Archie while the mainline's dying.

Mainline sales are about the same as they were before. Every 5-7 years they experiment with a more modern Archie just long enough to get people interested then they dump it and go right back to what's kept them in business since the late 1940s.

They have bar none the lowest page rates in the industry because they know there are an endless stream of artists who will gladly work for shit just to participate in their own nostalgia (i.e. they are mangaka). They avoided putting their eggs in direct market when everyone else thought that was where stability was, produce multiple formats and unlike Marvel and DC aren't allergic to cheap reprints.

Even being run by a certified lunatic hasn't damaged them, and the current Mark Waid bullshit could be scrapped tomorrow with no damage done to the brand.

Are they as profitable as they were at their peak? No. Are they about to file for bankruptcy? Probably not and if they were, the bidding war between TW/DC and DS/MC for them would make the evening normie news.

>>89758453
>Shooter's most important initiative in creator compensation was the establishment of a codified sales-bonus plan for scriptwriters, penciler/cartoonists, and inkers. In the first half of 1981, Shooter, cartoonist Jim Starlin, and Marvel's de facto publisher Michael Hobson finalized the contract for The Death of Captain Marvel, the first book in Marvel's Euro-album "graphic novel" line. The contract included a royalty clause for copies sold. It was the first contract for a Marvel publication featuring company-owned characters to include such a provision. That November, Marvel's chief competitor DC Comics upped the ante by announcing a sales-royalty arrangement for their periodical comics line. The following month, Shooter established a similar plan for all Marvel newsstand comics selling in excess of 100,000 copies (TCJ 70, pp. 10-12). Since all the company's newsstand titles were selling in those numbers, every scriptwriter, penciler, and inker at Marvel would see the equivalent of royalties for their work. Daredevil was Marvel’s top-selling title for the first month of the program, and writer-penciler Frank Miller received (...)

>As such, it is undesirable (and in many instances untenable) for a publisher not to acquire the licensing rights to a property. Before 1978, the only way to do this was for the publisher to own the property outright. But the new copyright law allowed the author or authors to retain the copyright while assigning the licensing rights to the publisher. Shooter and Marvel immediately took advantage of the change to develop and publish Epic Illustrated magazine, which debuted in 1980. It was a slick, high-production-value anthology that was all but entirely made up of author-owned material. It was just the first step in this direction.

>this entire article

jesus h christ

and people dare criticize shooter?

>>89762417
Epic was Vertigo before Vertigo and literally nobody wanted to give it a chance despite it producing some of the more interesting creator owned work in the decade and bringing Moebius's shit to America

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>>89762112
>Print a completely different genre? He'll launch a clone of your lineup and run it JUST long enough to draw readers away from you then shitcan it.
Case in point: well known comic book writer launches hard-boiled noir detective series named Ms. Tree to critical acclaim.

Marvel shits out copy that no one takes seriously with retarded ad campaign.

Renegade prints the following with no explanation necessary and comics journalism eats it up.

In this particular case, Ms. Tree died a more…natural death than most titles targeted by ME! ME! MY COMPANY HAS TO WIN!

>>89762112
>Print cape books?
Eh. Marvel heydays before Shooter were long done.

>He'll launch a clone of your lineup
But how? Black and White Marvel magazines existed before Shooter, and I don't remember Epic Line being successful. Marvel Graphic Novels were mostly cape shit.

>I had LCS managers tell me that the only 2 genres safe from Marvel were manga and porn.
Oh for fuck sake, you make it sound like it's marvel's fault that they were hot shit at the time.

>>89762573
Dakota North is some really obscure shit. I didn't even know it existed. I only remember her from Power Pack series.

>>89762576
No, I'm saying that small publishers actually changed what they were focusing on to manga imitations and/or porn to avoid being poached. That's what I was told by the guy who worked directly with those publishers. Literally the only other alternative you had was to make an "ironic" imitation of TMNT and those had a not so wonderful lifespan.

I do miss the original run of Adolescent Radioactive Black Belt Hamsters, where the art was like half melted claymation (eventually lampshaded by having a wraparound cover done in modeling clay).

>>89762576
>byrnefag still trying

>>89762679
Back then the market was still maturing and evolving. Most of small publishers were doing parodies of the capeshit. It wasn't really until fantagraphcis, when the "indies" slowly became a thing, and it wasn't until Image, when there was an actual alternative to big two

>>89762627
I've been wanting to read the series ever since she popped up in Bru's DD.

>>89762573
>ms. tree
that pun is killing me

>>89762725
>Most of small publishers were doing parodies of the capeshit.
No, most black and white small publishers were doing parodies, but a number of ill-fated ones were trying to do earnest titles as well. Southern Knights wasn't a parody.

>It wasn't really until fantagraphcis, when the "indies" slowly became a thing
Eclipse would like to have a word with you, they started up in 1978 and were successful before Porn Inc. hit the scene. And let's not delude ourselves, most of Fantagraphics' income came from printing/reprinting smut.

> and it wasn't until Image, when there was an actual alternative to big two
How old are you, again?

>>89762849
Yeah Eclipse was good, albeit I don't remember much from it.

>>89762849
Old enough to drink beer grandpa.
You can roleplay to be an old fart, but even if Image comics started as a vanity project of the artists, it did evolve as an actual alternative

>>89762934
>sjw shit
>actual alternative

>>89762934
>grandpa
Asspain detected.

>>89762992
yeah, you are annoying like a brat

>>89762986
Walking Dead is SJW? Or Chew? Hmmmm

>>89762573
Wait a minute. Marvel creates a "noir" character. And some small time forgotten by time and dust publisher made a butthurt parody of an ad? How does that make a case for your point?

>>89762904
>I don't remember much from it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_Comics

It's kind of central to 80s comic book history, even if you might have been sperm at the time (I wasn't).

>>89762934
>but even if Image comics started as a vanity project of the artists, it did evolve as an actual alternative
It's still in business mainly because the current editorial board said "we're not into taking risks, you bring an entire book team and the first X issues completed or fuck off." Because outside of that, they have Bomb Queen and a decaying shared universe. Image is Epic without the vision.

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>>89762934
Its for you kid...

>>89763108
Max Allan Collins and Terry Beatty create Ms. Tree (initially for Eclipse, then move to Renegade as Eclipse begins to crumble).

THEN Marvel decides to imitate it.

> butthurt

This is not your magic word to win an argument if you're old enough to post on 4chan.

>>89763124
Out of curiosity, what such "sophisticated adults" like you, are doing on 4chan, because it's getting hilarious.

>we're not into taking risks, you bring an entire book team and the first X issues completed or fuck off.
that speaks more of a market than a company. I remember verotik comics and what happened to them. sad story.

>>89763140
Seriously we're surrounded by fucking illiterates whose knowledge of comic books comes from wikipedia, storytimes and torrents

>>89763140
>>89763167
>look how old I am.
You know, "grandpa", only underage kids bring up the age

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>>89763191
>what such "sophisticated adults" like you, are doing on 4chan, because it's getting hilarious

>>89763204
I personally read mostly european comics.
From US I only care about big two.
First comics was crap with crappy art

>>89755177
>No matter how Byrne and Lee try to spin it.
>Lee try to spin it.

[citation needed]

>>89763220
you said it so it must be true! best retort ever, certified winner of internet arguments

>>89763239
But most of people who are oldfags (and still posting here), they should be 30-something, not 50-something. This is kinda disturbing that someone would roleplay to be an old dude

>>89763248
>illiterate tries in vain to proves he reads comics

I don't think you even read European comics

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>>89763248
>First comics was crap with crappy art
get out

>>89763269
Thanks for agreeing

>>89763295
And I don't think you're older than me

>>89763291
The idea that you're begging me to post a photo is more disturbing

>>89763307
more like, "Fagg"

>>89763360
Isn't there a Star Vs. thread you're neglecting

>>89763024
>nitpicking to save face
Hmmmm.

>>89763323
>>89763360
>try-hard retorts

I guess it is true you've never read a European comic in your entire life

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>>89763336
I already have it. Pic related

>>89763386
This thread is crap. I can very well trigger some tryhards

>>89763399
Oh jesus, what a brilliant shitpost 10/10

>>89763448
Poor byrnefag.

>people over 30
> oh no, how could it be? It conflicts with my sense of propriety!
Autustic pearl clutching is the best pearl clutching.

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>>89763140
It's hard to find First stuff online. I've been trying to find a working download for Grimjack for a while now.

>>89763491
Poor samefag

>>89763508
>not shooterfag
ONE JOB

>>89763532
It's hard to tell who is trolling who anymore

reading from other shooter articles by the same blog

http://rsmwriter.blogspot.com.ar/2016/06/the-jim-shooter-victim-files.html

>One should also consider the emotional maturity of many of the staffers and freelancers. The late Kim Thompson, who actively covered the business during the period as an editor and reporter for The Comics Journal and Amazing Heroes, once characterized the professional comics community of the time as “shambolic and inbred and full of resentments and unprofessionalism of every stripe.” (Click here.) Gerry Conway, one of Shooter’s predecessors as Marvel editor-in-chief, has described the company environment as “a cesspool of politics and personality issues” (Sean Howe, Marvel Comics: The Untold Story, p. 185), and “like the worst high school dysfunctional mishegoss” (Untold Story, p. 187). Shooter, in a comment on his website, wrote, “The comics business in general, and especially Marvel, was Romper Room on crystal meth.” It’s hard to imagine how an editor-in-chief at Marvel could be an effective administrator without having occasional conflicts.

God, the american industry hasn't changed at all.

>>89762506
not only that, he did it as soon as anthology magazines became possible in the USA.

>>89762849
Fantagraphic's actual porn line, one that I just discovered I've been reading for a while given that I didn't know Eros was their trademark, is a very 90s thing. You are skipping 10 years of publications that weren't porn.

>>89763124
Image hasn't been cape centric for a decade

>>89763800
>Image hasn't been cape centric for a decade
And they haven't published Bomb Queen in five years. That guy probably is out of the loop with them.

>>89757336
>You also can't shit on the man who reset Big Blue Boy Scout into the definitive take
Byrnefag, Maggin is the definitive take and all the austistic screeching over the internet will not change that.

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>>89765531
>Elliot S! Maggin

>>89763503
http://getcomics.info/other-comics/grimjack-collection/
If I remember correctly the first issue is a little fucked up. All you have ti do is unzip it and rename the images so they're in the right order.

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>>89765988
You're a swell guy Anon, I'm glad I kept this tab open.

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>>89766025
No problem.

>>89763503
Grimjack is SOOOO fucking GOOD!

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>>89757050
This is great.

>>89763248
>praise European comics
>praise cape comics
>shit on First Comics

You eat shit & like it.

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>>89758129
>Are you really a retard, or do you pretend to be?
If you thin that comics from 60s and 70s were good, I can only pity your shit taste

One can't overstate how much better today's comics really are.

>>89767995
o u

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>>89765988
>>89766202
>This place has Checkmate Vol. 1

I already said thanks before, but this has a lot of stuff I've had trouble finding.

I have no idea who this is.
Frankly, all artists and publishers in the comic books industry sound like enormous cuntwhistles.

>>89761792
He's talking about the web-flying specifically. He heaps praises on Romita in general.

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>>89756879
I actually didn't give a shit about the Secret Wars event as a kid. I guess it was a neat story that I never followed. I just wanted to get into all these neat superheroes, both Marvel and DC.

I never knew who half these characters were. Firestorm? Doctor Fate? Kang The Conqueror? Baron Zemo? Even Wolverine Iron Man? Who? Why is Spider-man in a black outfit? I dunno. Looks cool.

The figures got me interested in the characters I thought looked neat. I already knew Batman and Superman and Spider-man heroes and villains. I didn't know much else.

>>89763307
Chaykin?

>>89769684
You've heard of Chaykin but not American Flagg?

>>89769708
Yeah. Amazing isn't it?

I was trying to pin down the art by the page alone. Seemed like Sal Buscema if he actually took his angular approach to be aesthetically pleasant outside of action scenes, so it hit me it must have been Chaykin instead.

>>89769731
American Flagg is generally considered a fairly seminal work, let alone his most well-regarded. Just kind of surprising, is all.

>>89757645
>>89758192
How? That's a toy from the 80's, and wasn't the kid's to fuck with in the first place. There is no defense for the behavior of that person other than not thinking somebody else's property is worth consideration.

>>89760111
>trump
>getting the job done
>while getting absolutely cucked and bamboozled by the courts

back to /pol/ with your alternative facts

>>89757934
There's Comicbook Confidential but it's from the 1980s

>>89756563
>and genuinely earned Frank Miller coldcocking him in front of the staff

Any truth to this?

You mean Jim "Let's make an event based on words that sound interesting" Shooter? The mastermind behind the toy commercial that was Secret Wars & the dredging farce that was Secret Wars II (which ended with baby-murder?)

>>89755384
Because the artist had a kid.

And you act like a shitty book never went out under Shooter watch.

fuck off m8

>>89756563
Shooter fixed what needed to be fixed, and then he went on fixing stuff even after it didn't need fixing.

His early decisions were mostly good and necessary ones, like banning writers from editing their own comics, or forcing Claremont and Byrne to throw out the Phoenix ending and come up with something more worthy of a special double issue. He also revitalized some of the books that had been spinning their wheels since 1970, like Fantastic Four and Daredevil.

But by the end of his reign he was rewriting everyone's stories to fit in with his Secret Wars II wank, and making arbitrary rules about how comics must be made.

EiCs are like coaches, they're hired for a reason and fired for a reason.

>>89760111

Fuck off /pol/!

>>89772896
>Because the artist had a kid

So get somebody to fill in for the issues, especially if the end of the event is mean to kickstart a relaunch.

>you act like a shitty book never went out under Shooter watch

Nobody is saying that, just that a ridiculously high amount of quality books came out under his watch.

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>>89772991
The hardest thing to take about the Shooter era is the endless talk. Sometimes the balloons threaten to crush the heroes under their weight.

Almost every writer under Shooter had to write like that because Shooter demanded that everything had to be explained for new readers in every issue. It was a natural fit with Chris Claremont's writing style which is why his work comes off the best in that era.

Shooter also banned the traditional comics use of BOLD WORDS to BREAK UP THE MONOTONY, which was a good decision at first, except it eventually made the balloons really hard to read because it's just endless all-caps text.

>>89755336
Isn't one of them an unapologetic pedophile?

>>89756433
Shooter at the tail end of his tenure kind of lost it yeah but the guy had many great years of stewardship and many great years as a writer beforehand.

That is adult Timmu Turner, innt?

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>>89773144
Whatever gave you that idea?

>>89773993
Actually, it's a young Tommy Lee Jones

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>>89774061
I mean it's not like there are recurring themes in his work or anything!

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>>89774084
Anyone who sees a pattern is just sick in the head!

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>>89774115
It's certainly nothing wrong with the writer, no sir!

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>>89774136
You should be embarrassed for thinking that way!

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>>89774172
I'm really disappointed in you Anon!

>>89755177

That pic of Jim Shooter always makes me think he was fired from Marvel for strangling one of their inkers with his bare hands.

>>89774172

That is CLEARLY from the Kirby / Lee era m8 but good work otherwise.

>>89774061
This one doesn't seem so bad, even when it's not being compared to the others.

>>89757570

CAPTAIN CARROT was a virtual textbook of How to Get It Wrong. The internal logic was constantly skewed. What would prompt anyone to coin the term “pig iron” in a world inhabited, at least in part, by intelligent pigs? Wouldn’t that be an awful “racist” slur? What would an “alley cat” be in a world with intelligent cats? And, seriously, can we imagine a “real” superhero called, say, Captain Hamburger?

The book had all the earmarks of a “parody” — but, of course, it was a “parallel universe”, not a parody!! — done by civilians. By people who do not “get” the language of superhero comics. Appalling, when you consider who actually created it.

And let us never forget the solemn pronouncement from The Powers That Were, lo these many years ago —- “CRISIS is going to get rid of all the parallel Earths — except the one inhabited by Captain Carrot!”

Shooter did nothing wrong.

>>89755177
>>89756179
>>89755336
>>89756461
>>89756484
So neither OP nor anyone else can say what Lee said?

Other than Marvel Comics: The Untold Story, what should I read for Marvel history?

Man that book is so damn good

>Shooter hate thread
>turns into Byrne hate

Lol

>>89759207

Bru actually broke the record for most Cap I'm pretty sure.

>>89756875
>Carol being raped by her own son
The only thing he really did was sign off on it and no one (not even Shooter) really knows or remembers why he was given a co-plotter credit. It was also something that was thrown together at the last minute so it comes down to either Michelinie/Layton just going "fuck it" or Perez being given some kind of plot outline and then making his own changes as he tended to do. The book also came out at the same time as UXM #137 which was the end of the Dark Phoenix Saga so Shooter would've more had his hands full with that story given how hands on he was with the ending.

For Shooter's part, he's said that Michelinie and Claremont had some kind of beef going on at the time which could've played a part in what happened to Carol.

>>89756970
Nah, not Byrne. Gonna guess it's Sean Howe.

>>89777476
>Bru actually broke the record for most Cap I'm pretty sure.

He wrote 110 issues of Cap (including spin-offs), 122 if you count Secret Avengers (I don't really count it). And I'm not sure if the Winter Soldier series counts or not.

Gruenwald had 136 Captain America comics (#307 - 422, 424 - 443)

>>89762573
>comics journalism

And opinion discarded. Nobody knows about any of this shit today. Dakota North is beyond an obscure character, and anybody who does know her probably knows her form Daredevil, not her obscure miniseries.

As for the "witty" comeback: That's like coming up with a witty comeback to a diss after you've already left the bar, gone home, and called up your friends at 4:00 in the morning to tell them about how awesome it would have been to have said it at the time.

>>89763167
Ok, anon, seriously, stop bringing up ages. It doesn't make your argument any better.

Also, Dakota North is such a fucking obscure character, that bringing attention to her existence through a parody cover 20 years later is if anything counter productive, as youre just giving bringing her back into the public counciousness, when she had long since faded away.

>>89777396

It's also really biased, and really shows what the author was mostly interested in while barely covering other stuff. I mean, Gerber is portrayed almost like a martyr.

>>89763167
>TFW Collins hinted that he'd bring Ms. Tree back but all you got was one lousy origin retelling novel almost ten years ago.

I'm still mad.

Dakota North was in Kelly's Captain Marvel. That's how I came to know of her, didn't realize how old she really is till now.

>>89778916
>And opinion discarded. Nobody knows about any of this shit today.

I am threatened that the world existed before me.

FTFY

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>>89757050
>This thing is the decompression gold medal winner. Three pages to get the kid accepted at a high school by random drawing? Which has precious little bearing on whatever the Hell is going on? Three? Of 21? Really?

>>89779024
What are some other sources to go to?

>>89779760

Shooter's defunct blog has some nice insight about shit that was happening during his tenure. A lot of Marvel staff and writers appear in the comments sections to give their takes on the posts Jim made, so with a small grain of salt you get some kind of an alternative view on certain things.

>>89779638
I definitely prefer >>89773131. At least you get more for your money.

>>89775468
>And, seriously, can we imagine a “real” superhero called, say, Captain Hamburger?
I think that if superheroes became a thing IRL, Captain Hamburger would be a thing within a week.

>>89775468
>The internal logic was constantly skewed. What would prompt anyone to coin the term “pig iron” in a world inhabited, at least in part, by intelligent pigs? Wouldn’t that be an awful “racist” slur? What would an “alley cat” be in a world with intelligent cats?
This is how the world can tell you're autistic and wrong.

>>89774615
A kid having a dumb crush on an adult is one thing, the "love that will burn true through all the years that follow" is some creepy pedo purity shit.

>>89775468
>tumblr reads a children's comic

>>89755177
I stand by my statements that a HBO tv show about the big two would be great. Every episode is 5 years or something, hit all the big betrayals and all the good punches. Show the world how shit the comics world is and make those Nancy boy normies bow to the glory that is Kirby.

>>89781281
I don't think David Simon's gonna be all that interested in your pitch.

>>89781290
Not to mention that Marvel would want the story to be as biased as possible.

>>89759160
I had the pleasure of seeing Jim Shooter at my LCBGS. He phrased it best, "My run at Marvel was like coaching the Yankees at their peak years".

>>89782587
And to people who don't watch adball, what's that's meant to communicate?

>>89758192
In all fairness Byrne's more or less in the right. You can argue how he went about doing it isn't but someone just coming in and going through his shit to hand to his kid is pretty shitty.

>>89782640
Marvel's sales were pretty damned good under Shooter.

Some Writers were mad because he made them write stories that were logical & made sense.

Shooter would take a cleaver or a scalpel to said works if they were not fit for purpose.


We could use a no nonsense editor in chief like him again.

>>89782722
Doesn't even have to be no-nonsense as long as they have a modicum of competence of some kind.

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>>89782722
Shooter V Bendis: Dawn Of Continuity

>>89784635
>Bendisman v Shooterman
Fixed.

>>89772991
>EiCs are like coaches, they're hired for a reason and fired for a reason.
That reason was that he talked shit about Jim Galton in a letter that made its way into Galton's hand so nothing to do with his performance outside of some butthurt staffers/talent passing it along to Galton.

>>89786066
I thought it was because those butthurt staffers/talent had sent them a video copy of that comic burning orgy they organized at Byrne's?

>>89786100
>s what the author was mostly interested in while barely covering other stuff. I mean, Gerber is portrayed almost like a martyr.

wut

>>89786344
Wrong quoting.

>>89786364
yeah, sorry, can you elaborate on the byrne stuff?

>>89755384

months of delays only proved to worsen it. You can't polish a turd. It's even hard to polish a turd when you're supposed to be the training pulling all the other cars.

This is the different between comics and say books or movies. James cameron delays Avatar 2, because avatar 5 isn't written. Incase he wants to tweak part 2 based on the ending of 5. The whole series is delayed. It doesn't delay other film series, only avatar. We don't know the results, but delaying all the movies till the whole project had a clear vision is smart. If he had to release avatar 2 two years ago, and clean up and fix and write as he went along.

This is where medium of comics gets fucked. It doesn't have this option, it can't stop.

>>89756563
>He called talent at DC and told them Marvel was buying DC out and that if they didn't play ball they wouldn't keep their jobs. Byrne was the only one who was upset enough by this to tell someone higher up and it resulted in DC legal contacting Marvel legal.

that's not what happened. Byrne wanted Superman so he went to like the corporate head to demand it and the guy was like "Who the fuck is this"

>>89757934

the problem is everyone's still alive/in living memory.

>>89786535
From Sean Howe's book:
>On Saturday, April 4, John Byrne hosted a party at his house in Connecticut, attended by several Marvel staffers and freelancers. In the backyard, a suit was stuffed with unsold issues of New Universe titles, a picture of Shooter’s face was affixed on the head, and the editor in chief of Marvel Comics was burned in effigy.
>(...)
>when a videotape of the effigy made its way to California, just before Shooter’s contract negotiations were about to begin, it was clear to New World that the commander had lost control of the soldiers.

>>89772374

yeah

>>89779515
>i can't let go of grudges that everybody else moved past decades earlier

FTFY

>>89781299
At least they'd allow it. DC would want anyones feelings to get hurt, and wouldn't let it get made.

File: u-spider-man-cvr2.jpg (275KB, 582x900px) Image search: [Google]

275KB, 582x900px

>>89757050

>The second variant features Spider-Man unmasked. He’s leaping, I guess, though the pose is close to a sticking-to-the-wall pose. It takes me a tenth of a second to realize that, nah, that wall behind him is some distance away. He must be in the air.


i never realized this wasn't a pic of Miles stuck to a wall...

>>89787871
>DC wouldn't want anyone's feelings to get hurt
FTFY

>>89755360
Secret Wars
Civil War II
Ultimate Hulk vs Wolervine

>>89786535
Even still, yeah Untold Story is nice reading if you go in knowing the biases of the author and take a lot of his conclusions with a grain of salt. He makes a lot of leaps regarding things Shooter (and Marvel) did that make no sense when you stop to think of the timeline of print publication until somewhat recently i.e. Epic being launched as a reaction against DC publishing Ronin. He's very much a "creator's rights" guy and thus at times goes out of his way to portray Marvel the company as somewhat amoral in its dealings with talent and the industry in general and Stan Lee as something of a doofus huckster in favor of putting up Gerber and Kirby as the sacred divine figures of the fight for creator's rights.

>>89789668
>Stan Lee as something of a doofus huckster
>Gerber and Kirby as the sacred divine figures of the fight for creator's rights.
But it's true.

>>89789724

>Stan Lee as something of a doofus huckster

someone post that story of Marvel trying to throw Stan to the curb and him leaving the meeting with a guaranteed % of profits from everything for the rest of his life

>>89789759
>>89789724

found it

>But the company was still broke, surviving on a $ 200 million bridge loan that would have to be paid back soon. Perlmutter’s first order of business was to terminate the expensive contracts with executives that dragged on the company’s finances. Stan Lee wasn’t worried when he heard the news. His $ 500,000 per year lifetime deal was a special case— after all, he was the face of Marvel Comics. Nor did he worry when Perlmutter summoned him to New York. “Ike greeted me like a long-lost brother,” Lee recalled, “telling me how important I was to him and the company and assuring me that I’d be making more money than ever from now on. I thought to myself, Gee, why did people tell me he’s such a cold fish?” Then Perlmutter presented him with a two-year contract at half his previous salary. Lee was astonished. After the royal treatment by Bill Bevins, he thought, this was like Martin Goodman all over again.

>But Perlmutter had underestimated just what Stan Lee’s loyalty meant to the company. Lee’s lawyer began negotiating. Without a contract, Lee might contest the ownership of some of those characters for which Marvel had, on innumerable occasions over three decades, credited him as the creator. And even if Lee didn’t have much of a case, the damage to Marvel’s public image would be devastating. The two parties eventually settled on a salary raise to $ 810,000 (with generous annual increases), plus a $ 500,000 yearly pension for his wife, plus $ 125,000 for writing the Spider-Man comic strip, and a whopping 10 percent of any movie and television profits that Marvel enjoyed. Furthermore, the new contract was nonexclusive, which meant that Lee could supplement his income in other ways— in fact, by the time he re-signed with Marvel, he’d already lined up an Internet start-up called Stan Lee Media.

you come at the king you best not miss

>>89789759
>>89789854
>stanfags rushing to defend their god with the money argument
Like clockwork.

>>89789759
That was his lawyers, not Stan. All Stan did was pay his lawyers a lot and snort a lot of coke.

>>89789724
Stan was a smart business guy and contributed as much as anyone to Marvel's success in the 60s. And being something of a huckster isn't an inherently negative trait. Stan had the affable charisma that made Marvel seem more down to earth and personable than stodgy old DC.

>>89790139
>Stan deserved all that fame and credit he stole
lol

>>89789854
>a whopping 10 percent of any movie and television profits that Marvel enjoyed
That eventually stopped right?

>>89790943
>he stole
ive yet to find anything where stan claims himself sole creator, he always says that hes a co creator

>>89791621
>always
You mean after people began to doubt he wrote such a ton of books.
>co-creator
Looool. Kirby alone created Galactus, you know.

good thread