You know one of the biggest issues with BvS? No Batman lead in.

>>89655280
Yes, anon, we know. This has been pointed out a few hundred times in a few of the thousands of threads this movie has had pointing out its innumerable flaws.

i would have enjoyed more on the whole "post apoc" vision he had.....looked awesome

>>89655280
Sounds like you can't piece anything together. batman is a recognizable character. Do you seriously need everything spelled out for you?

>>89655280
While I still completely understand your thoughts and reasoning, I actually prefer that they wasted no time establishing a Batman that had been settled into his position. I think they may have gone a tad younger (5 ish years) but I'm still content.

Nah, we've seen his past a million time before. It was awesome how we were just thrust into his world here, questions and all. It gave a real sense of history and world building.

>>89655340
Oh I didn't hear that one, the only one I really heard of was the "MARTHA" meme
>>89655359
But this is a new Batman, the Superman of this Earth is nothing like the Superman we know why would the Batman? And if this is the first we're seeing why wouldn't we just believe that Synderbats is just Batpunisher?

>>89655359
>batman is a recognizable character
Here's this fucking defense again

No one is asking for Batman Year One again or something but an establishing movie showing how he got this way would be very helpful to the audience.

>>89655344
It'd be a cool spinoff.
>No Elseworlds movie where they just throw the Post apocalyptic Justice League into Superseid's blown to shit world.

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>>89655280
Resident Evil: Batman in full effect here.

>>89655459
Not even how he got this way.
A movie before that just shows Batman as something before this. the events of MoS show how he got this way, that's a good snapping point the issue is there's no reference. A movie where Batman is fighting this darkness the whole movie and manages to keep it at bay but it's still presented as there would be great, then they show the beginning of BvS and we see him finally lose the fight when he sees innocent people destoryed by the climax of MoS and by the end he's regained himself.
>>89655472
Needs a scene of him dual wielding Batgurkhas

you are delusional if you dont know who the fuck Batman is. did you want another origin story? because if you did it was just you.

>>89655795
>it was just you.

Unfortunately it wasnt. A lot of people felt this way and this is why we cant have nice things.

>>89655359
See the problem is you go "do you need everything spelled out" and then when someone relies on that prior recognition and notices differences you flip out and go "NOT MUH" at them. You can't have it both ways. If you want a new Batman that plays by his own rules, those rules have to be established. If you want to rest on the comfortable laurels of prior achievement, then you need to hold true to those standards.

>>89655795
I didn't say an origin story, just a story that introduces Batman to this universe proper and presents him as an actual hero besides the last 20 minutes the only bit of that we get is when he rushes to Metropolis to save his empleoyees.
The rest of the movie he's a tunnel visioned psycho who kills tons of people and helps NOBODY, the only people he saves are the Chinese Sex Slaves purely by incident and he scares the shit out of them.

>>89655881

The whole idea is that Batman changed because of Metropolis. He was the old Batman, then he wasn't. We get to see the changed one.

>>89655795
He says, in defense of the movie were we had to watch the Waynes get shot again anyway.

I'd like to have seen Robin dying. Do Death in the Family. That's not an origin story. Or at the very least tell me what Bruce was doing in those 2 years other than crossfit because "he didn't find out Clark's secret identity because he didn't want to" is bullshit.

>>89655359
>>89655404
>>89655459
"Batman" is not a recognizable character.

Many discreet versions of Bruce Wayne and Batman ARE however, which actually makes this WORSE.

Because unless you specify how batman was before you have no idea how has changed or if he has even really changed at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6UDEi8H43M

This could have been solved with even a ten minute Batman action sequence as the movies beginning, ending with Robins death scene to catapult us into the BvS era. It would have been perfect backdrop for the "there was a time...before" bullshit and earthed it enough to make sense for us idiots.

Also, yes, humans are idiots and unless you can correct for that while producing content designed for humans, that content will fail. If humans were not idiots, concepts like comedy or horror would not even exist.

>>89655943

He wanted to kill Superman. Superman, the guy that is going around the world 24/7 making a mess out of things. He didn't wanted to know who Superman is.

>>89655280
Who is this misterious batperson?

>>89655963
That is, rather than starting the movie with "9/11 TIMES A BILLION", we start it with a cool action sequence followed up with a moment of massive emotional trauma for bruce, them follow that up with the city destruction shit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZcZ6eJoxeE

>>89655940
Yes the idea is, but we have no reference for before.
Hell if the movie wasn't so overloaded as it was the very least they could've done was flashback to Better days Bruce but we never get that.

>>89655963
>"Batman" is not a recognizable character.

What

>>89655976
Yes, as I said, is bullshit.
That's like saying he want's to stop the Joker but doesn't want to find out where the Joker is hiding out during the day before causing mayhem.

>>89655280
>first appearance of Batman
We all know who Batman is.

>>89655943
Didnt care, is not the same as didnt want to. It held no meaning for him.

What were you expecting? We barely got a Superman lead in. Arguably we still haven't and the man's dead already.

>>89656074
>I want to kill this man at all costs, even if I die doing it.
> But I notice he goes missing for a six hours every day. Don't care why tho.
Clark is off working at the Daily Planet and Bruce never thinks "I wonder why Superman's appearances are timed as such that he could have a day job". When he himself has a day job?

It's not that Bruce didn't care. It's that the writers didn't.

>>89655857
it simply is
>>89655933
and then wed all be bitching about another batman origin story in an already all over the place movie
>>89655943
he says, in defense, of what was basically a montage during the opening credits

>>89656047
Well more like he didn't want to find out who Joker was because he had totally decided Joker wasn't really a man and he's going to murder the fuck out of him.
>>89656043
What he's saying is there's tons of different Batmen of different characterization and personality. And many are iconic. This was a new Batman and he didn't fit preconceived notions so there's no reason to read them into him.
>>89656134
To be fair is he? Daily Planet Job isn't necessarily a job that requires him to constantly be chained to a table and his powerset easily allows him to be EVERYWHERE with a job he can do from anywhere. Plus he needed the green rock.
>>89656148
I literally said it didn't need to be an origin story and this movie was overloaded. Just a Pre-Fallen Bruce. There is presumably decades between his Origin and MoS.

>>89656148
>it simply is

I wasnt that anon, just saying it's a common, though imo ill founded, complaint.

I liked the mystery of this "new" Batman whose backstory could be explored in his own films if at all. It was enough for me that he *was* Batman, and all that goes with it, I don't need yet another origin film.

>>89656401
But it's done by the end of the movie. His arc to redemption is complete but we never actually saw him before corruption leaving it kind of hollow.

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>>89655943
>"he didn't find out Clark's secret identity because he didn't want to"
He never considered Superman to have a secret identity because he didn't think of him as a man. If you want to kill someone it's a great deal easier to do it if you dehumanize them first.

"You were never a god. You were never even a man!"

That's why Clarks plea to save Martha causes Bruce to see him in his fathers place and subsequently himself in Joe Chill's place. Which is why he throws the spear away in disgust (with himself).

Of course I don't know why I'm posting this since talking to comic-book fans is like talking to a very dense wall.

>>89656595
You had three whole movies dedicated to exploring Batman before this one. The only reason that's not good enough for you lot is that you are all autistic neckbeards with an overriding obsession with "canon".

>>89655280
This is stupid. This is the post of a stupid person. Go back to watching the Marvel movies, it's more your speed.

>>89656611
I agree. You and this movie have no business anywhere near comic book fans.

>>89656611
Lex looked. Lex found out. So by this logic, we're suppose to think Lex was more willing to humanize Superman than Bruce was.

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>>89655280
Everything you need to know about Batmans state of mind is covered in these two lines from Alfred.

"New Rules?" and "Oh, yes it has, sir. Everything's changed. Men fall from the sky, the gods hurl thunderbolts, innocents die. That's how it starts, sir. The fever, the rage, the feeling of powerlessness that turns good men... cruel."

It helps to pay attention when you watch a film.

>>89655280
No one needs a Batman lead in. We do not need YET ANOTHER origin story for Batman.

>>89656812
Comic book fans are the dregs of the Internet and wouldn't know a good film if their lives depended on it.

>>89656840
Lex is a psychopath.

>>89655459
They did, they showed you Robin's costume and the graffiti that made it clear who killed him.

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>They showed me that the world only makes sense when you force it to.
This book may not be main continuity but when Bruce started talking about his parents in the movie I expected something more like this, wanting to bring justice and protect Gotham not some self-righteous half-fascistic speech about being Batman because of feeling like he has to have control over everything.

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>>89655459
"Twenty years in Gotham, Alfred; we've seen what promises are worth. How many good guys are left? How many stayed that way?"

Again, it helps to pay attention.

>>89656924
That's PTSD for you. And that kind of Batman is nothing out of the ordinary.

>>89655280
I'm starting to think comic-book fans don't actually like comic-books.

>>89655280
This thread is proof positive that Zack Snyder's biggest problem is continually overestimating audiences.

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This movie felt like a DC event comic which was awesome. The dark, mythic tone fit.

I can see why it's not for everyone, people have preconceived notions about what these enormous IPs "Batman" and "Superman" should be but this was just one vision done really well.

Im all for lightening the tone in the solo Superman films a bit though now that he's back. Hopefully mankind embraces him and he cheers up yada yada yada.

>>89657104
You know we can see when the IP count goes up, right? What do you hope to accomplish by samefagging?

>>89657040
The same happened to me after seeing so much people trying endlessly to defend Snyder, his shitty views on heroes, and even Suicide Squad.

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>>89657174
Not that anon but people can contribute to a discussion multiple times...

>>89656840
yes actually Lex never wanted him to be God or all powerful. He wanted to tear him down on a very personal level as well as physical. BECAUSE FUCK YOU DAD!

He's pretty much the opposite of most Lex Luthors in that way.

>>89656674
That's literally a different character.

>>89657204
You have a real shitty definition of a contribution.

>>89657403
>He's pretty much the opposite of most Lex Luthors in that way.
Which goes back to the original point. This universe takes the established versions for granted and then tries to play against type.

If you want to give Batman the myopia of Lex Luthor that's fine but then when people complain he's coming off as a dumbass snyder's fag brigade chimps out.

Would have liked them to open with the death of Jason instead of the origin. Just something simple like Batman finding Jason slumped over in a chair, his last words "He took my mom, Bruce, he said he'd kill her..." and Joker's laugh in the background.

Later we get Alfred chiding Bruce for his brutality and how Jason wouldn't want it this way, Bruce shoots back that Jason might still be alive if he'd dealt with Joker permanently before.

When the Martha scene rolls round, Superman actually calls Martha mom like a normal person would, Bruce remembers Jason sacrificing himself to save his mother, realises Clark is doing the same thing and relents.

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This was a clever Lex origin story. Starts off proto-Lex, fucks Batman and Superman's shit up, Creates a God monster, learns the knowledge of the cosmos, and finally jailed w head shaved and chip on his shoulder.

Now he's Lex

>>89657494
This all falls apart because the whole point is how he dehumanized Superman to the point he never though he could have grow up on earth or even had a mother.
Martha gives a personification that mom does not give.

>>89657574
Like how Man of Steel was a "clever" Superman origin story?

>>89657574
>Now he's Lex
You mean like how Superman was supposed to "be Superman for real" after MoS?

The death of Robin should never be relegated to backstory.

There had never been a Robin killed in the live action film. It was a major event in the comics, and it should be made a big deal in DCEU. But just like the death of Superman, the death of Robin was wasted.

There could have been an entire film dedicated to the death of Robin. Now, we will never get one.

>>89655558
Now you are talking anon! I'm liking where you are going with this!

>>89655459
All we need is an establishing scene really. It'd really neat if the opening credits were like the Watchman ones but showing Batmans decline. Start with a very old school costume, take a note from 69', and then we see the death of robin, the destruction of Metropolis, and then finally Punished Bats staring at this massive conspiracy map with Superman in the middle just daggers in his eyes.

>>89656974
So after seeing how much one bad day can ruin someone's life and how even people with mothers (Joker, Zsasz etc) can be monsters; he spares Superman because their mothers have the same name.

>>89658052
There is about 5 movies worth of content crammed into BvS.

>>89658219
The beginning of The Incredible Hulk does this actually. Something like would be perfect to establish Batman's character

I mean, I think people might still be complaining "Robin died in a fucking montage" but that would at least be something

>>89655280
>>89655340
>>89655344
>>89655359
>>89655459
>>89656043
>>89655963
>>89656236
>>89655472
>>89655857
So I guess The Dark Knight Returns comic doesnt work because it starts with a post-career Batman? I guess its animated adaptation didnt work either. I guess you cant watch The Dark Knight Rises as a stand alone movie? I guess Kingdom Come didn't work because we didnt see the pasts of those specific versions of the chose characters. I guess Batman Beyond doesn't work as a standalone series either.
God you are a bunch of retards.

>>89658052
>>89658387
Death of Robin is a backstory in The Dark Knight Returns and literally every Batman story post-death of Robin. Fuck you are some pleb idiots.

>>89658545
Elseworlds comics made for existing fans that followed their lore for years don't have the same rules as movies for general audiences in a universe only established with one previous movie

>>89658559
>Death of Robin is a backstory in The Dark Knight Returns and literally every Batman story post-death of Robin. Fuck you are some pleb idiots.
The comics already gave a massive even to Robin's death, yes. You are not disagreeing with me. There had never been a Robin dying onscreen in live action film.

The comics HAD the event, and assume that the readers had read one of the most shocking events in Batman lore. We are also talking about the first time a character died due to a literal reader's poll. Had readers voted otherwise, Robin would have survived. The later stories can skip elaborating on it because it is assumed knowledge.

But it is not assumed knowledge in the films.

>>89658559
>Death of Robin is a backstory in The Dark Knight Returns and literally every Batman story post-death of Robin
Yes, Death of Robin, a comic event, is indeed a backstory in TDKR and other Batman comics.

Surely you're not trying to suggest something like "because it is a big event in the comics, it should apply that it doesn't need to be explained on the big screen because I and other comic nerds know about it already and who cares about the rest of the audience who probably don't read comic books"

Because that would just be silly

>>89658545
>The Dark Knight Returns comic doesnt work because it starts with a post-career Batman?
TDKR doesn't work, period. but that's a different ball of wax.
>I guess its animated adaptation didnt work either.
No, it was terrible.
>I guess you cant watch The Dark Knight Rises as a stand alone movie?
You really can't. It makes no sense if you hadn't seen what happened to Dent in that universe.
>I guess Kingdom Come didn't work because we didnt see the pasts of those specific versions of the chose characters.
Kingdom Come doesn't work either. the art is the only thing going for it.
>I guess Batman Beyond doesn't work as a standalone series either.
It doesn't. The lynchpin of the show is how the callbacks are part of the worldbuilding. if you havn't seen enough to BTAS and JL then BB just seems like an ill-thought and mediocre scifi adaption.

>>89658609
>>89658687
>>89658777

The Dark Knight Returns is one of the most accessible and pleb friendly books of all time and has the death of a robin as backstory. You guys are all crazy.

>>89658794
>TDKR doesn't work, period. but that's a different ball of wax.
hahaha you are crazy, its one of the most recommended Batbooks of all time.


>You really can't. It makes no sense if you hadn't seen what happened to Dent in that universe.

It makes perfect sense.


>Kingdom Come doesn't work either. the art is the only thing going for it.

ahahahaahhahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahhaha
>It doesn't.
AHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>89657158
>was just one vision done really well.

Not really.

It's really dumb and full of plot holes. It's an insult to intelligence to pretend that it's good.

>>89658845
not even that guy but it was great and there arent any plotholes.

>>89658545
I don't think it works if you name series with previous series that show everything.

>>89658545
>I guess you cant watch The Dark Knight Rises as a stand alone movie?
Pretty sure you're not supposed to, no. Otherwise, Nolan wouldn't have called it a trilogy or called it "The defining chapter he was building up to"

>>89657158
this actually

>>89658861
hence why I said "work as a standalone" I know reading comprehension is hard


>>89658871
you can though, its really not hard to understand what happened before thats relevant to the plot

>>89658872
>IP count doesn't increase.

>>89658895
To be fair it's kind of hard to separate since I grew up with BTAS also the series starts with Bruce's breaking moment. AKA him playing by all the Batrules then being forced to break one.
More than we got with BvS

"MMMAAAAAAAARRRRTHHAAAAAAAAAA"

>>89658971
>IP count actually did increase