http://www.newsarama.com/32912-do-r elaunches-work-anymore-r

Jumping-On Points

The argument for relaunches is that new readers won't pick up a comic book with high numbers, preferring to wait for the story to start over with a new #1.

"Of course [comic book publishers] should always be doing relaunches," said Jesse James, owner of Jesse James Comics in Glendale, Ariz. "New generations continue to flock to the comic book world. Old time collectors are going to collect regardless."

In fact, without relaunches, retailers would see a huge slowdown in new comic book sales, James aid. "Relaunches always work as long as we are partnering up with the publisher and making social marketing a must on each new project," the retailer said.

Believe it or not, they really do work in bringing new readers in," said Bret Parks, owner of Ssalefish Comics in Winston-Salem, N.C. "The downside is explaining to new readers the difference between volumes and also in organizing these book in our back issue bins. But that is really about it."

Customers who complain, Parks said, are usually "few and far between" and still continue to buy the books. "It is a minor inconvenience at worse for long time readers," Parks said, "but really terrific for new readers all around."

>>89440102
Diminishing Returns

But several retailers we surveyed said the sales boost on #1 issues have been lower recently, and they attributed that reduction to the growing number of relaunches from (mainly) superhero publishers.

Ryan Seymore, owner/president of Comic Town in Columbus, Ohio, said relaunches have reached the point of being "an incredibly negative force of the medium."

"DC has had the most success with the reboot tactic," Seymore said, "but by changing from the New 52 to Rebirth within five years has gone through a cycle that has both lost and gained new and veteran fans.

"With Marvel's seemingly annual soft renumbering, they have pushed away more readers with each 'relaunch,'" Seymore added. "I feel that we have reached the end of this tactic's viability."

Some retailers compared the frequent relauches to the little boy who "cried wolf" — eventually, nobody listens or takes it seriously.

"The problem with the constant re-numbering is that each new re-start reduces reader and retailer confidence," said Joe Field, owner of Flying Colors Comics. "There really isn't anything special about a first issue anymore."

"I think it’s gotten pretty tough for relaunches to work as well as they once did," said Matthew Price, co-owner of Speeding Bullet comics in Norman, Okla.

>>89440136

DC vs. Marvel

Many retailers felt that DC's recent relaunches have done much better than Marvel's because they were concentrated around two events — New 52 in 2011 and "Rebirth" in 2016.

"New first issues used to be a big deal," said Charlie Harris, owner of Charlie's Comic Books in Tucson, Ariz. "Marvel has turned it into a gimmick that no longer works. In fact, my customers often tell me that a big number one on a Marvel title means a jumping off point rather than a jumping on one. Customers who were die-hard Marvel fans for decades have walked away altogether in the past few years, frustrated with the constant reboots and the lack of fan favorite characters or the dilution of the same with the countless Spider characters and Iron characters out there.

"On the other hand, DC has had much success with this as the New 52 and the Rebirth both brought lots of new readers," Harris said.

"Some relaunches work," Field said. "DC has done it with strong results twice in the last five years. But I doubt if that would work a third time. I'd love to see some kind of Rebirth initiative with Marvel where the company has a dozen or so 'tent-pole' titles featuring generally recognizable versions of their classic characters. From that, they can do their experimental takes on these characters, and those surely could start from issue #1."

Matthew Price, co-owner of Speeding Bullet Comics in Norman, Okla., agreed that Rebirth's new #1 issues worked well, possibly because there were so few relaunches in the five years since the New 52 reboot.

"I think fans are interested in new first issues, certainly," Price said. "But I think the odds of it working are better if it’s a character or project that’s had a rest for a certain amount of time, as opposed to one month’s #18 being followed by the next month’s #1.

>>89439880
Can't they just fucking take a hint from DC and learn that nostalgia sells? Bring everything back the fans like and return to original numbering.

>>89440159

"Comics like The Avengers and Amazing Spider-Man and Detective Comics," Price said, "would be better served, I think, by continuing for long periods of time without relaunching."

When was the last time we saw an issue 50 from marvel or an issue 100. I miss milestones

>>89440173
Nooo they have to appeal to an audience that isn't there!

MAKE MARVEL COMICS GREAT AGAIN

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>>89440251
I second this. You can roll back Marvel 10 years and only Hickman's amazing run on FF will be lost. I cant think of a single other story I would miss.

>>89439880
I may generally be more of a Marvel fan (in that I grew up reading more of that), but hearing that they're doing badly these days just gives me a great sense of satisfaction. I'm just waiting for them to take a fucking hint.
Watch them start relaunches with #00 instead

How would you change Marvel's staff?
If you're going to get rid of someone, you have to find a replacement.

>>89440329
I'm genuinely having a hard time thinking of stuff I'd miss. Scarlet Spider is the only other thing that comes to mind. Other than that, yeah, there's nothing memorial about the last decade at Marvel.

>>89440339
Fucking this. I'm not hard on them because I hate Marvel and want them to fail. I want them to stop treating their audience like shit, so I get happy every time I see their sales fall because I think, "Maybe this time they learned their lesson", and they never do.

>>89440426
Tom King's Vision was pretty good

>>89440426
>>89440471

I liked Uncanny X-force though it felt like Remender was starting to phone it in at the end

>>89440471
Okay, that. Also the Carnage series was kinda cool. Honestly, I blame the MCU and Civil War I.

Civil War I is when Marvel went overboard with events, because they realized it sold. MCU made Marvel crave the normie audience, that really don't have any interest in reading their comics, which made them make a shit ton of bad choices.

>>89440543
I'm pretty sure normies aren't interested in political correctness

>>89440571

Readers don't want it
Casuals don't care

Relaunches are like antibiotics. Not inherently bad, but the more you take them the less effective they are.

>>89440571
Of course they are. The current cultural focus is all about political correctness because it's trendy. And Marvel, like any company, wants to follow the trend. However, most of their readers are finding it alienating.

>>89440329
>Scarlet Spider
>Agent Venom
>Immortal Iron Fist
>Superior Foes of Spider-Man
>Yost's X-Force
>Remender's X-Force
>DnA Guardians
>Vision
>Most of Ewing's books
There's quite a lot of stuff I like from the last ten years actually

>>89440464
They're like the bioware of comics.
Great recognizability, well known, popular even, but they just don't understand the concept of making and treating a product in a way that's for the consumer, not despite them or someone else instead of them. You don't fill your car with vegetable oil if the engine is gasoline only, even though /some/ engines might work with vegetable oil, just because you decide one that that's what you'd prefer to use. It doesn't work that way.
Marvel will learn their lesson when they lose enough readership and are forced to see enough feedback, just like with bioware, except hopefully it'll stick for them, unlike bioware.

>>89440329
I would only miss Uncanny X-Force and Rage of Ultron

>>89440515
>phone it in at the end
Otherworld felt like filler and there was the dumb alternate timeline at the end, but Final Execution was a great end

>>89440173
But how will they get the retweets and reblogs of pages and panels along with empty praise from people who don't actually bother to read or support the books?

It's all ego stroking. They enjoy that all these young people and 20-somethings go on twitter and tag them in tweets full of ball washing.

>>89440683
>Scarlet Boredom
>Yost's garbage in general
>no Ellis' Moon Knight

>>89440102
how about making new heroes and trying to find some new formula with little to no pandering instead?

>>89440805
huh, I forgot about Ellis' Moon Knight
Thanks for reminding me, add it to the list

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>Introduce a minority legacy character
>Gets popular because she's actually handled well
>So popular that she was seen as important
>Part of her charm is accessibility and how she's a teenage street level superhero who aims to follow her idols
>Marvel decides to get her more involved and have her immediately become an Avenger
>Relaunches happen and she's tied to events more often because of her rise in popularity
>Events lower accessability
>Try to catch the same lightning with other titles
>Sales are now shit

>>89440854
This is honestly part of the reason that I feel Kamalah was such a success. Because when she was made there was virtually no recognition tied to the Ms. Marvel brand. And even so, she doesn't feel like a Carol Danverse replacement, she stood on her own merit and struggles.

>>89440683
>Yost's X-Force
Wait, did people even like it?
It read like an emo teen's angst-ridden fanfic most of the time and was very hard to take seriously.

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>>89440543
That is because Civil War I was GOOD!

>>89441420
It was fucking trash.

>>89441420
honestly i agree

>>89441437
i agree as well

it was both. some issues were great, others werent. i actually really liked it because not only was it fun but it actually felt like the things happening mattered.

now change just happens for the sake of more change$$$

Drain the Spider swamp. There's 52 billion characters holding the Spider name in some variation, and like 5 of them are worthwhile.

Yes, this is a thinly veiled argument to get rid of Miles.

>>89441532
>Yes, this is a thinly veiled argument to get rid of Miles.

Nothing wrong with that, he overstayed his welcome.

>>89441437
It was a fun trainwreck.

New events had nothing redeeming about them at all.

>>89440102
They work if they're done every so often.

There was a 5 year gap between the New-52 and Rebirth. If DC did it yearly like Marvel is doing now Rebirth would not have been as successful. The law of diminishing returns.

>>89440159
>But I doubt if that would work a third time

It probably would because the key factor is the 5 year difference.

>>89441532
>>89441667
Ive been wanting to read ultimate spiderman. Does miles' introduction make it bad?

>>89441670
Axis was a funny trainwreck. There were so many goofy moments, like Evan spontaneously turning into literally Apocalypse.

>>89442058
You've got a good chunk of book until Pete dies so get to that bridge when you get to it.

>>89441532
There's no real reason for him to be Spider-Man in this universe. I hope they give him a new identity and give him to someone other than Bendis so he can develop his own personality

>>89442142
Which Spider-man, we have two Spider-man now.

>>89442184
>this is a thinly veiled argument to get rid of Miles.
Reading comprehension is sorely lacking

>>89442281
that Spider-man? The black one? that's racist isn't it? why not the white Spider-man.

>>89440967
Don't forget, she's also going to be on an inhuman special forces team. And she's in IvX. And Champions.

Kamala is such a sad story of a character with potential ruined because of greed and ego. She could have been bigger. Now she's not even the top 100 selling books.

>>89442299
Isn't it MORE racist that he's been running around in a black costume this entire time? That's some first season Power Rangers shit right there.

>>89442299
They're both shit for different reasons.

>>89442137
>so get to that bridge when you get to it.
Just like Ultimate Peter did so he could catch bullet

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Out of curiosity, I wondered what some comic titles' current numberings would be without any re-numberings or #0s/decimations across title volumes.

By my count, excluding events and annuals:

Superman:781
Batman:780
Wonder Woman: 684
Flash:436
Green Lantern:531
Aquaman:289
Catwoman:236
Amazing Spider-Man:779
Uncanny X-Men:619
Avengers:588
Invincible Iron Man:581

Please tell me if you think I made any mistakes.

>>89439880
>Do relaunches work?
Clearly not

>>89441989
True, if they hold off on another reboot until like 6+ years from now then it might work.

>>89440136
>"With Marvel's seemingly annual soft renumbering, they have pushed away more readers with each 'relaunch,'" Seymore added. "I feel that we have reached the end of this tactic's viability."
>Some retailers compared the frequent relauches to the little boy who "cried wolf" — eventually, nobody listens or takes it seriously.
>"The problem with the constant re-numbering is that each new re-start reduces reader and retailer confidence," said Joe Field, owner of Flying Colors Comics. "There really isn't anything special about a first issue anymore."
>"I think it’s gotten pretty tough for relaunches to work as well as they once did," said Matthew Price, co-owner of Speeding Bullet comics in Norman, Okla.

See this is part of why I was against renumbering. People keep thinking that the high number is meaningless, but no, it became more meaningless after they kept fucking rebooting over and over. How many fucking Captain America #1s are there by this point? Or Captain Marvel #1s? Or Iron Man #1s? Or Hulk #1s?

The problem isn't the relaunches, it sucks but I can deal with it. The problem is that every time they relaunch more and more of the books are complete shit, literally who characters with a web comic artstyle and hipster writing style that the main comics audience isn't interested in, or both.

>>89442935
Did you purposely put wrong numbers so someone else would work it out for you? If not, use DC Wikia and a calculator.

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>>89440967
>tfw your favourite Marvel NOW hero is too violent to get pushed and ruined like Kamala did

>>89440967
flash in the pan

>>89442299
Because he can be his own arachnid instead of simply being "Spider-Man Two".

>>89443969
The only way Bendis' stupid "why black Spider-Man why not just Spider-Man?" Bullshit could ever work and have a real point is if Miles was the original Spider-Man and Peter the knock off, but white normativity still resulted in people calling Peter Spider-Man and Miles black Spider-Man despite being the original.

>>89441727
holy shit THIS

>>89440967
She's basically Blue Beetle done wrong. You don't throw a new hero directly into the Avengers. I kinda miss when the Avengers was the book where all the C-listers who couldn't hold a book congregated.

>>89444026
His suit is black, so what else are they supposed to call him? Red Spider-man?
Normal Spidey is already mostly red, so that wouldn't even work.

>>89444026
His best hope is that they form a proper Spider-Men Corps out of the various spider-themed heroes. Then he can be legit like Sam as Nova.
>>89444078
Scarlet Spider had less red than Spider-Man.

>>89443925
God this pisses me off to no end. Robbie has good potential, and his new book is hijacked by team shit. Christ he was only in a third of the last issue

>>89440173
fuck. nostalgia.

you want nostalgia, read back issues. that's what i do.

you know why i read back issues? to be nostalgic. creating new shit by definition cannot be nostalgic.

that's why DC is shit.

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>>89444026
>>89444078
>>89444125
Friendly neighborhood reminder on how to "fix" Miles:
>Drop the spider mantle/gimmick
>Ditch the web shooters, he doesnt even know how to make them or the fluid anyway
>Make him the all new Scorpion since hes known for the Venom Blast and Mac hasnt done shit
Either that or just send him to another universe, far future, or kill him for a good bit

>>89444498
>creating new shit by definition cannot be nostalgic.

That's not entirely true. Legacy characters can make you nostalgic for an older character that isn't around if done correctly.

>>89444498
>DC is shit
Anon, DC has actually had an improvement since Rebirth

>>89439880
Thats what happens you "artistically" rape your creations and passive-aggressively hate on your fan base.

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>>89443925
Yeah he gets pushed out of his own book instead

>>89444498
Then why is Marvel shittier?

>>89444498
There are times when you /need/ nostalgia. Marvel is so off the deep end they need to pull everything back and start over. /That's/ why Marvel needs nostalgia.

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>MCU stll going strong
>Games are getting a revitalization
>Cartoons are shit
>Comic quality has been rough for a decent chunk

>>89444538
Scorpion Lad

>>89439880
>no mention of Bendis being a shit that drives people away
>no mention of character assassinating Beast
>no mention of X-Men being stomped on because company wars
>no mention of idpol bullshit that pissed people off and was obviously contrived more than the usual comic book character

>>>89444555
what improvement would that be? oh, superman got a new belt? constantly regurgitated "postmodern" hellenism? according to "bleeding cool" harley quinn took the #1 spot. is that really something the rest of /co/ should be worried about?

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/09/16/dc-comics-humiliates-marvel-with-august-2016-marketshare-as-diamond-sets-a-record-month-of-sales/

>>89444539
>legacy character
>literally a reiteration of some concept masquerading as something new, when it isn't

is that why some people don't like daken or x-23?

>>89444777
Comics should be top priority, fuck what everyone else says. Marvel is a comic company, not a movie company. Besides, the films will start to die off after Infinity War, modern audience will get tired of it by then and start asking. "Oh, is that /still/ going?" "Didn't it end?"

>>89444777
Nice double trips, Mr. President.

>>89444806
capeshit comics are an incredibly niche market

>>89444782
Or just kill off Mac I guess? Which I hate to even suggest it but the guys been a joke for decades with next to no progression. Actually I take it back, kill Miles, reboot Scorpion

>>89444834
That could literally change at any moment if Marvel stopped being such greedy whores.

>Lower the prices by a lot.

>Sell them in more convenient locations, like grocery stores, and gas stations

>Go back to "treat every comic like it's someone's first"

>Give away free books during events, like movies or game releases. Make them good too, not this Attack on Avengers crap.

>>89444866
Who would you do that? Scorpion is powerful, but a complete moron so he get trashed easily.

>>89444889
Oh, also, you have the most recognizable characters in existence. FUCKING. USE. THEM! I don't give a shit about whatever movie deal is going on, because to me your movie division can go to hell. Now bring us back our X-Men and Fantastic Four.

>>89444652
DELET THIS

>>89439880
Marvel can't compete with children's characters that get their own cartoon like "DC Superhero Girls". It's easier to sweep under the rug that joker beats harley quinn than it is to discuss oppressed minorities like the x-men or mutual aid and struggle amongst different species through time and space... and you can bet that they'll never put powergirl on a little girls' cartoon either.

marvel's x-men pushes the universe in a direction that becomes adult themed. DC is mostly simple for a younger audience that can be marketed to via friendly cartoons that aren't grimdark and serious.

>>89444538
That's a pretty bitchin suit, no lie

>>89444539
>legacy characters

you realize this is a thread about marvel not being as successful during a time when there are multiple spider-mans?

how many times doesn't something have to be rehashed before EVERYONE finally gets sick of it?

>>89444988
Mutants are unable to survive.

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How does one man suck so bad

>>89444988
>marvel's x-men pushes the universe in a direction that becomes adult themed. DC is mostly simple for a younger audience that can be marketed to via friendly cartoons that aren't grimdark and serious.
Counterpoint: Power Pack.

>>89444804
I think the main reason people who don't like legacy characters, particularly Marvel ones, is because Marvel insists on the replacement being the true version of the character and relentlessly pushed them, while the original is left to rot.

>>89444988
>X-Men pushes the universe
>All their characters are being treated like shit and being pushed out by Inhumans
>Giant murder cloud that kills them is being waved off as "peanut allergy"
The X-Men are the redheaded stepchild of Marvel anon. They all hate them but they keep them around for cash purposes.

>>89445021
I thought Peter was masturbating for a second on the bottom left.

>>89445065
that's a big penis for a teenager

>>89445081
It's an XL cancer blaster.

>>89445065
I mean, what do you do after you've drowned a scorpion man?

>>89445015
I said done correctly for a reason. Green Lantern became one of DCs biggest series for over 9 years because of legacy.

>>89440609
antibiotics literally make what they're fighting stronger. if your comparison is correct, the next time DC slopes off, it won't come back, which is probably a good thing.

>>89445059
Same reason nobody but 90s babbies likes Kyle Rayner.

>>89445060
>they all hate them

your bias is showing, anon

>>89445128
>which is probably a good thing.
kill yourself

Also the article is about diminishing returns on rapid fire relaunches, not ones with five years in between like DC's

>>89444908
I know.....thats why I said reboot him anon....

>>89445170
>muh infinite infinite megadega middle earth age crisis stroke debrillation crisis!

>>89445192
>muh secret infinite civil uncanny amazing annihilation war

>>89445215
lol

>INFINITE UNIVERSES! MUH SUPERMAN COMPRISED ENTIRELY OF UNIVERSES, DAWG

>>89445215
>DC's uber saiyan forever struggle! the series!

>>89445215
Where nothing fucking happens

>>89445266
pretty sure people died, anon.

>>89444889
>>Sell them in more convenient locations, like grocery stores, and gas stations
Those days are long over.

>>89445192
>>89445215
>>89445232
>>89445254
>all this butthurt

>>89445043
never heard of it til now.

doesn't seem to have its own cartoon.

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>>89445314

>>89439880
marvel is just tiring out the collector market because they are idiot who always buy #1s, but now there's a shitload of #1s and they are shit, so nobody goes and buys them out like before

which is a good thing. perhaps we will see the real numbers of comic buyers soon

or perhaps they will abandon the retarded floppy system which is the main barrier for people who want to read the comic and can't find the first.

>>89445043
Remember when Dark Beast tortured and merged them together?

>>89445314
>wants to read about the struggle of near gods

>>89445017
yeah, real life isn't fair. maybe stories like that fall in to fables, parables and allegories instead of escapism where the heroes always win. the dc escapist fan base pisses themselves when a main character with a red cape happens to have a costume change that's not really that different at all.

Relaunches totally bring people in.

Frequent relaunches and mega events totally send people out, though.

All those marvel readers who got in on issue 1 of something, got a little ways in and then MEGA EVENT OMG then back to issue 1 with another relaunch were not having a good time.

>>89445437
>muh overpowered
kekarooni try actually reading some comics sometimes kid, not just Marvelshit

>>89440329
Scarlet spider.

Daredevil, moon knight.

The rest can go.

>>89445426
citation

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>>89443020

See you can say what you will about the high numbers, it is intimidating but with high numbers it makes it feel like the shit matters. Uncanny X-men, Spiderman Whatever it feels like there's history to the book.

We've renumbered so many time it just makes it hard to get excited because now we know that come one or two years everything is going to get renumbered and swept under the rug.

Why would I get invested in a book I know marvel has no long term plans for? Now combine that with compression so we get a 12 issue run that's taken 6 issues to even set up it's premise and at like 4 bucks an issue?

Why would anyone buy their comics?

>>89445459
no seriously, tell us about the superman made up of universes. explain to us how that isn't rhetorical masturbating on the level of "golly gee, second grade? that's so cool times infinity!"

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>>89445475
looked it up, it was actually an alternate universe, disregard

>>89445510
still cool though. dark beast had a lot of potential. what remender did with uncanny x-force was proof of that. bendis a shit.

As someone who has never gotten into Big Two comics and has always preferred indies and a handful of webcomics, this is one of the reasons. It feels like neither company treat their fans well, especially Marvel. Renumberings and events are awful, I don't care about how big and intricate events are if they're written like shit. It feels like neither company has any idea what it's doing. The industry is in shambles and will never reach the sales it once had if stupid shit like this keeps up. Comics are one of the most adored and important parts of pop culture right now, yet the books themselves do not sell whatsoever. No one cares because it's a dense jungle of bullshit to wade through only to get slapped on the face by yet another event or awful writing. "Start with #1" Well which fucking number 1 there's a million of them now and they increase every year? "Oh read this run" But then that run gets derailed by a shitty event I don't care about, or the characters I'm interested in go off to some shit team book. It's stupid, annoying, and isn't conducive to good storytelling.

Cape sales are so bad the comic categories were dropped from the NYT best sellers lists. GG you mongoloid executives, you blew it when you could have had it all.

>>89445437
>wants to read about the struggle of minorities

Mythology is cool, after school PSAs are worthy of mockery

>>89445651
You are aware that the industry never really recovered from Deathmate, right? You know who was responsible for that? Not the Big 2, Image and Valiant.

>>89440329
>and only Hickman's amazing run on FF will be lost.

But that wouldn't be much of a loss.

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>>89445751

People can always tell when someone's being disingenuous

New Frontier was a great story and one of my favorites that used elements of real world history to deepen and build it's story. Racisms, the red scar all treated with respect if not always subtly.

But the shit marvel does these days..

>LOOK AT US! WE HAVE BLACK CHARACTERS! BLACK PEOPLE!

just comes off as self congratulatory garbage.

>>89445651
>>89445773

>not the glut of comics that were published in the 90s when people thought they were getting something that might be worth more years later when in fact the very act of selling more destroyed the industry

capitalism. who knew.

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>>89445751
>>89445891

marvel has always had diversity. whoever came along and thought they'd push that was in charge of an industry they didn't even understand. the peter principle is in full effect

>>89440184
You think they would know this, but no

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>>89442965
Marvel Comics waiting that long to reboot their books at this point.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
>CRASHINGTHISMARVELCOMICSWITHNOSURVIVORS.JPEG

>>89446129
They should have done a proper reboot after Secret Wars (2016) and stuck with it.

>>89446180
Secret Wars was 2015, but you're right.
It's retarded how they had the potential to reboot, but all it amounted to was "some characters from the Ultimate Universe are in 616 now and the FF are gone."

>>89446234

They seem more interested in getting rid of their characters they don't own movie rights too and are honestly just coming off as downright spiteful about it. Fuck the only thing saving the X-men at all is how huge they where before all this movie shit.

>>89440339
but they already do. Captain Carol started with #0 same with literally all their events.

>>89440967
you forgot the part where she's basically just a mouthpiece.

>>89444498
I don't think it's nostalgia that governs success. Marvel's latest big crossover event was Civil War II, the sequel-nature banking on people either wanting remembering Civil War fondly or being interested enough to buy past issues to "catch up". The bottom line though was that it was a terrible event and typical of Marvel's large-scale plans.

Individual successes in terms of writing or popularity (I liked new Nova post-Loeb for example) were the exception to Marvel's overall gameplan of large-scale crossovers, not due to them. Stupid fucking events with no legitimately interesting plots, contrived causes and consequences, and convoluted history are why Marvel's losing out. DC buckled down and focused on a few core stories, meaning that while they traded off potential creativity they increased effective editorship and more concentrated storytelling.

Ms. Marvel with Kamala is the only comic I've read.
I dropped it when it started including references to shit I don't know about and other superheroes I'm somehow supposed to know. Now it's just another part of the grand overarching mythos that I'm 60 years too late to get in on.

>>89446419
Honestly, Marvel has just forgot how to do crossovers effectively... or tell stories effectively for that matter.

>>89443020
I honestly believe that marvel will eventually have a books that only have #1's, with each month being #1.

>>89441420
Even compared to modren Marvel it's still not something I would call good.

>>89440159
>"Rebirth" in 2016
...i had no idea they did this
time to do some catching up

>>89440102
>The argument for relaunches is that new readers won't pick up a comic book with high numbers, preferring to wait for the story to start over with a new #1.
This is actually kind of a good point.

It would be interesting to see, instead of normal ongoings, the numbers started over ever arc, with a unique subtitle.

So like, instead of just being Daredevil #227-#233, it's Daredevil: Born Again #1-#7 (fuck, was it really that short?).

There are flaws to this obviously, but it would make things a lot more accessible, and could lead to some better stories.

>>89446567
They only advertised it on cable. I only found out last week

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>>89440967
Fuck. It's so sad. Kamala really could have been great. I still really like her early stuff, there was a real character arc starting.

Fuck, even having her involved in Civil War II could have been good, if handled right, but of course it wasn't.

>>89444889
>>89445293
>those days are long over
Why did they ever end? Is advertising space in grocery stores really that expensive? How do all those trashy celeb mags pay for it then?

>>89446567
It means nothing. Just like every reboot.

>>89446450
The problem is that Marvel is best with short arcs, and a crossover is more of a special guest appearance with an option to pick up another book to continue following that character if you want.

Literally just do monster of the week, and each year has a single recurring theme/building arc either as a villain or their civilian life.

You don't need a constant 24/7 event. You don't need anything to be relevant outside of their book.

That shit goes for DC too. Stop trying to glue the entire universe together. Stop trying to go epic.

>>89446692
it means increased sales, at least for a short time

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>>89440967
>>89442395
>>89446662

They're doing with her what the industry does with any popular who suddenly gets popular.

Venom.
Deadpool.
Harley Quinn.

Throw them in as many books as you can, go more and more over the top, when everyone gets sick of it make a massive drastic change. Venom and the symbiote concept suffered the most from this, to the point that newfags don't even know who Eddie Brock is because it became a mantle for so many completely different characters.

>>89441420
Civil War was good, with a completely garbage ending and it fucked up the industry.

It would have been amazing as an elseworlds where they don't need to go back to status quo, and when the story ends it just ends.

>>89446769
He was the guy that bullied Spider-Man as a kid and came back from war broken and fought for justice with an alien parasite?

>>89441532
>Drain the Spider swamp.
So...do the exact opposite then?

>>89446788
I think he's referring to Venom's popularity back in the 90s

>>89446769
He's Eric Forman in the Raimi movie to me

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>>89446788
Things like that make me realize what a crotchety son of a bitch I'm becoming, when I have to fight back the need to go into a tirade about how shit the concept of mantle characters is, and the true interpretations.

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>>89446809
pity

>>89446832
I'm just yanking your chain.

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>>89446769
I think the time when Venom was officially run into the ground was The Hunger when they tried to David Cronenburg horror it, followed by Tooth And Claw where he went on a silly interdimensional trip with Wolverine straight out of something like The Tick or The Mask. License To Kill, when they tried to Liefeld so hard that Cable would laugh at it, was the final straw.

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>>89446848
I know, and the fact that part of me still gets mad is making me realize I'm becoming an angry old man.
Back in ma' day, antiheroes and villains would hack the internet on a molecular level and fight in cyberspace, with no splash pages and advertisements for video games that had basically nothing to do with the game itself!

>>89445651
The NYT changing their bestseller lists is completely unrelated to the comic industry's sales. Shame on you for trying to present it as part of your narrative.

>>89446673
>How do all those trashy celeb mags pay for it then
Because people will actually buy those.

>>89446766
Did she get increased sales from CW2 at all?
She hasn't been in the top 100 for months.

>>89447013
it's what crippled her sales, apparently

>>89440766
Thing is, I think they've given up on actually moving books for profit at this point. It's just something to promote the movies now. To that end, all the mindless retweeting still serves their purpose.

>>89445651
>"Oh read this run" But then that run gets derailed by a shitty event I don't care about, or the characters I'm interested in go off to some shit team book.
Then don't be a characterfag. Just keep it to runs and arcs. If you want something that's "conducive to good storytelling," you should place greater value on the stories that are actually being told -- never mind where the characters go after the story's done.

>>89441420

That was such a great issue. I miss old Bendis.

>>89444538

Make Miles the sidekick to Peter and have him act as the straight man. Throw in some teen villains and what writers did with Batman and Robin.

>>89440410
THEY'RE LITERALLY BLOGGERS AND TUMBLR """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""ARTISTS"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" THAT WERE HIRED BY MARVEL WITH NO PREVIOUS COMICS INDUSTRY EXPERIENCE

OF COURSE THEY CAN BE REPLACED

A RANDOM HOMELESS PERSON COULD DO THEIR JOB BETTER THAN THEY CAN

>>89447542
Bendis will never allow it as long as he lives. The man hasn't even bothered to come up with a explanation for why Miles became Spider-man in 616 despite Peter never dying

>>89440329
>I second this. You can roll back Marvel 10 years and only Hickman's amazing run on FF will be lost.

So back until 2007? I can't remember what I really liked in the last 10 years. Maybe like part of Bendis' Ultimate Spider-Man, part of Wilson's Ms. Marvel (at least up to before Civil War II), Tobin's Marvel Adventures Spider-Man, Ellis' Moon Knight, some of Waid's Daredevil (like the first two years at least).

Stuff like Immortal Iron Fist, Gillen's Journey Into Mystery, DnA GOTG, Vision, Superior Foes of Spider-Man, Agent Venom, Scarlet Spider, Fraction's Hawkeye, Hickman's Fantastic Four and Secret Wars, there's a lot I like about them but I don't think I would've gone out of my way to buy them regularly.

But fuck, while I was trying to remember what they produced in the last 10 years I kept remembering how much of it was mediocre, or subpar or not worth the recommendations or worse, fucking abysmal. They seriously need to course correct fast.

>>89444538
>>89447542
>>89444782

Miles fucking sucks but if you gave him a slimmed down Scorpion suit and made him Peter's sidekick and pal he'd be pretty fun.

Basically make him Iron Man Armored Adventures Rhody.

>>89444988
lol @ this dumb marvelfag

>>89445651
You sound like a fag.

>>89445891
>>89445891
>all treated with respect if not always subtly.
>But the shit marvel does these days..
>just comes off as self congratulatory garbage.
Another example: Valentine's Catwoman. In this run it is shown that Selina is bisexual, but DC didn't go around selling this detail as the biggest thing ever.

>>89445651
>>89445651

Why do people who don't read comics always point out all the bad shit Marvel does and blame DC for it too?

>>89445773
>deathmate
>DEATHMATE
>D E A T H M A T E

You had any number of comics to pick from, from the Death and Return of Superman, to Knightfall to Marvel's quite literally >100 concurrently running titles and you pick Deathmate.

Imagine being this delusional about the big two.

>>89447918
Deathmate crashed the market, it's factual.

Sorry indieshitter

>>89444498
that's why DC is selling

>>89444834
they are the only market

>>89440136
>each new re-start reduces reader and retailer confidence

Non-capes reader here, help me understand.

Doesn't it bug you guys that retailers and fans talk about this as if you were investors rather than readers? Why would a change in numbering stop you from reading? If a major story arc is ending, doesn't it make sense to restart the numbering? Are these books completely dropping story lines when the numbers "reboot"?

If the stories aren't resetting, and the numbers are arbitrary, then why should existing readers "lose confidence"? It's still the same stories you want.

Either these books deliver a good reading experience, or a bad one. Making a big deal out of numbering seems like missing the forest for the trees, but I'm an outsider so I must be missing something.

>>89447974
Yeah sure, Deathmate's hundred thousand was definitely responsible for the market crash and not DoS' million

the market crashed because there was too much rampant speculation going on at once, i.e. people buying comics to resell at a later date for more money, the Death of Superman was marketted as a major shakeup and speculators bought it hook line and sinker, it completely destroyed speculator trust in the industry as a whole and people stopped buying comics.

Deathmate had an impact but it's not even close to something you can point to as a central issue.

>>89440159
> or the dilution of the same with the countless Spider characters and Iron characters out there
So why does this work with DC and not Marvel?DC have the Bat Family, a lot of Supersomething, I don't know how many version of Flash, basically half of the supporting cast of any given superheros in DC is a different version of him.

>>89439880
>B-but it's just Bleeding Cool using biased stores
despite the very same stores reporting how badly DC You was doing then
>B-but it's just those Twitter LCS handles being pro-DC
despite again, also saying how DC You was doing pretty bad
>N-newsarama is just biased
KYS.

>>89448110
who are you quoting

>>89447918
Image and Marvel killed the industry. This is a well known fact.

>>89448021
Let's be honest here. They're selling slightly more issues, still making less money because Marvel overprices everything, and company wars stop you from seeing the most important thing: that arguing about whose ship is sinking slower doesn't change that the ships are sinking. We're way past the point of discussing who's doing better, just who's doing less worse.

>>89448065
>talk about this as if you were investors rather than readers?
People think that their #1 will become the new "Action Comics #1" and sell for a lot in the future.

>>89448065
It doesn't matter to us, it matters to the dumb as fuck speculator market (we're talking short term speculation here, not like "I have Action Comics 1 tier" or anything)

Speculators (who like it or not are a sizeable market share) buy number 1's because those are traditionally what people will care most about later with the expectation that their short term loss (of a few dollars for the comic) will turn into a long term profit (of maybe 20 bucks or something) later. However, when Marvel floods the market with superfluous number ones what this says to the speculator market is "don't bother buying marvel titles, it's impossible to predict what will appreciate in value and what won't"

>If a major story arc is ending, doesn't it make sense to restart the numbering?

No because it's all meant to be one big story, Superheroman's story is normally presented a continuous saga made up of smaller arcs, restarting the numbers is good sometimes, like if you're 50 issues deep and something major happens then restarting with a new title, like Superheroman: Unmasked or something is perfectly fine. It helps longtime readers delineate and gives new readers a good jumping in point.

However all of these good points about a restart cease to apply if you do it every 5-10 issues because it means that new readers will get confused while older readers will get annoyed at having a bunch of comics with the same title, six different Superheroman #1's is not a good thing.

Here's an example, it's the Captain Marvel title since 2012:

Captain Marvel - 2012-2013
Captain Marvel - 2014-2015
Captain Marvel - 2016-present

Also I shouldn't have to say, but none of this applies to creator driven comics or comics that clearly have a very competent editorial/management that knows exactly where the whole line is going.

>>89448120
I always thought the Death of Superman driving the speculator bubble was a large part of it, too.

>>89448115
He made a pre-emptive post toward someone who showed up to prior threads who made half-ass excuses claiming Marvel is still doing better than DC.

>>89448120
Image jumpstarted the market and then didn't live up to outsider hype, but on its own it couldn't crash the market, it just wasn't big enough.

Meanwhile, Marvel, was occupying upwards of 50% of the dollar market share at the start of the 90's and rapidly crashed down to 20-30% by '93/94

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>>89440967
don't worry Marvel is ready to bottle that lightning again with the most funnest open approachable character of all

>>89448096
Only the Batfamily worked in DC.

They are still struggling to make Super-characters work.

>>89447836

Miles is a blank slate with a reputation among casuals. A good writer could turn him into an actually interesting character that could sell well.

>>89448171
So like in MtG speculators ruin everything.

>>89439880
NEW PLAN! EVERY ISSUE IS ISSUE #1!
ISSUE #1 PART1
ISSUE #1 PART2
ETC

>>89448193
But why? How were they able to make the Bat-Family work when both DC and MARVEL failed with Super-Family and Spider-Family?

>>89448209

Batfamily comics actually act like a family. Superfamily comics are surprisingly separate and only interact in a superficial way. Where's Superman and Superboy? Why are the various Supergirls always on their own or with someone else's family? Superman sells, obviously not as well as Batman, but the kids could benefit from him being around a bit more.

>>89448209
Batfamily is basically it's own seperate mini universe, a better name for this phenomenon is probably actually something like Gothamverse

Gothamverse sells well because it's like a constant event, there's always something going on that will peripherally involve the other books because they're one family in one city. New Batman villain? It's guaranteed to involve at least one Robin and probably a Batgirl, if it's big then you might see multiple Robins or hell maybe Catwoman drops in even.

>>89448198
Speculators and bad creators.

MaRo.

>>89448171
>it matters to the dumb as fuck speculator market

Okay, I get this. But if superhero comics are still reliant on speculators to such a degree, then I'd have to think it isn't healthy in the first place, with or without this reboot problem.

>However all of these good points about a restart cease to apply if you do it every 5-10 issues

I can see how this can be bothersome. If it were up to me, I'd have them numbered by month and year, like the periodicals they were intended to be.

I guess I still don't see this as more than a small nuisance for existing readers, those fans who comb through Previews and have pull lists. As for potential new readers, just the fact this kind of conversation actually exists is mindblowing.

>>89440173
But then we get Quesda and 'muh childhood unmarried young peter'

>>89448209
Bat characters are much easier to write and have more potential. Not to mention that Batman is the most popular hero which helps a lot too.

>>89444078
If there was ever a crossover between Miles and Miguel, I'd want at least someone to make a "White Spider-Man" and "Black Spider-Man" joke, based on the fact that their costumes are mostly that color.

>>89448197
OR we could use his slot for something people want to see. It's obvious no other writers knows what to do with him and he hasn't had one meaningful moment in his entire existence. Time to toss him away in the trash.

>>89440102
>"It is a minor inconvenience at worse for long time readers,"
Bullshit. #1s always need their new gimmick to justify them being #1s at all. Meaning, they completely disrupt the ongoing narrative even when the writer stays the same. Not to speak of the fact that Marvel has started using relaunches to justify canning everything at a moment's notice if it even dips in sales fucking once.
As I see it, a series at Marvel right now lasts for about 6 issues. Either because it really gets canned that ridiculously quickly or because the other 6 issues are forced event tie-ins that stop the progress dead.
And of those 6 issue they do get, the first 4 of which are the introductory arc to introduce the new gimmick that the relaunch introduced.
There really is no real point reading any Marvel comic right now that's even remotely close to the upcomming events.
No writer can tell a story like this. It's just impossible.

Meanwhile at DC I've been reading books for 15 issues straight without interruption. This is fucking heaven, I tell you.

The opposite to Bendis is Quesda.

Remember that

>>89447622
You don't like the art?

>>89448280
>Okay, I get this. But if superhero comics are still reliant on speculators to such a degree, then I'd have to think it isn't healthy in the first place, with or without this reboot problem.
This is completely true. Superhero comics market hasn't been healthy in a long time.

>I guess I still don't see this as more than a small nuisance for existing readers, those fans who comb through Previews and have pull lists.
I think part of the problem there is that even though Marvel isn't using them in that way, readers are still conditioned to see relaunches as shakeups. It's a sign that something wasn't really working the last time around, so this time they're trying something different. So relaunching over and over again is basically sending the message that Marvel doesn't have any confidence in its product, so why should we?

Marvel is going Event to Relaunch to Event to Relaunch. If you just want to follow one character without event shit getting in the way you can't really do it anymore.

It's even more telling that a lot of these #1 issues are bland as shit. They almost always are just set up and reiterate everything interviews and solicits have said the comic is going to be.

The fact that Marvel keeps going "Oh, it's not the reboots, it's piss baby white boys who don't get our comics" is so clueless. I think they need to boot Alonso.

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I've shifted to reading Japanese cape comics to wait out the lull.

>>89440329
if we rolled back like 10-17 years

i'd probably miss the edgy spiderman books we got like agent venom, superior spiderman or scarlet spider

beyond that all i can think of would be DnA cosmic marvel, new ms. marvel & superior foes

>>89449608
>all i can think of would be DnA cosmic marvel
In my case, this and Ennisher.

>>89449597
DELETE THIS

>>89449597
Amen
One Punch Man and My Hero Academia are superior to anything Marvel released in the past few years

>>89440329
Felipe's Ghost Rider.
The current Nova ongoing seems good.
Remender's Venom.
Yost's Scarlet Spider.
Superior Foes.

I barely read Marvel and I can think of plenty.

>>89444064
>Implying DC handled Jaime "right"
Blunder of the fucking century. If they were competent he'd be way bigger than he is.

>>89440136
>>89440159
Glad to see people remembering that the New 52 worked financially

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>>89439880
Man, why can't Marvel do cool cosmic stuff like this in a book NOT penned by Ewing?

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>>89440967
the last time i trusted marvel.

fuck you, you had at least one for me.

>Two Spider-men
>Two Spider-Women
>Two Wolverines
>Two Iron Men
>Two Thors
>Two Captain Americas
>Two Novas
>Two Scarlet Spiders
>Two Beasts
>Two Ice Men
>Two Hulks

House of Ideas.

>>89444538
That's not a half bad idea.

>>89444908
Remember that his whole thing was that he utterly outmatched Spider-Man physically and while not a genius like Peter he had the cunning and strategy of a career criminal.

Have him fight like a fucking scorpion to contrast Pete's spider-style, using ambushes, hiding places and vicious, absolute brutality to make up for Peter's superior agility and wit.

Make the fights visually and emotionally interesting; all of Peter's best villains have skin in the game. What's Mac's?

>>89444988
i'm lookin back at the x-men cartoons that ruled the fucking saturday morning airwaves for a decade and LAFFIN SON.

anyone can get "I am a super teen and everyone hates me because I am special and have complex teen feelings". That's all X-men ever was at its core, and that's fine. It's great even. Just MAKE shit instead of not making shit.

>>89450323
See, this idea is cute but you're forgetting something.

Miles is a token character so Bendis can turn to his adopted children and say "I made a Spider-Man YOU can idolize!" His character and the narrative don't matter, he exists to be Black Spider-Man.

>>89446866
But The Hunger is good...it's my favourite love story.

>>89445021
You talkin shit about Mac you fucking faggot?

>>89448317
literally nobody was hankering single peter again except fucking quesilla. how the fuck has he not been fired.

the reason I stopped buying comics years ago is because of these fucking events. I liked spider-man. didnt really care for the others. but they keep trying to force me to read other shit just so i could know what the fuck was happening in my spider man book.

also the inconsistency. if i think the art looks great, they'll suddenly change artists. if i think the story and characterizations are cool, they'll change writers. at least in manga, if i like the story and art, i can reasonably expect it to stay the same and only have to just follow one release month to month.

>>89449724
One Punch Man is fun. My Hero Academia would be good if it wasn't for the fact that they have such shitty edgelord antagonists.
>Muh kill all the heroes
Holy shit that's fucking dumb. But it does scratch the itch the X-Men left when they forgot they were a school.

>>89450152
>If they were competent he'd be way bigger than he is.
If they were competent there would be no need for a Jaime. Ted's death was part of a stupid edgy gimmick that hurt their comics.

>>89450837
>change is bad, always
Grandpa pls

>>89449724
i still have to read mha past vol 3. Does it get better?

>>89450290
What if they all fucked each other?

>>89450942
I think half of it would be illegal

Jaime's better than Ted anyway

>>89450558
renew your vow's sales says otherwise

>>89445504
Explain magical gems that fit into a glove and let you affect anything. Explain Thanos reacting to everything with "all according to keikaku". Explain Spiderverse. Or CWII Marvelcuck.

>>89446692
Means more than your latest Marvel relaunch Marvelcuck.

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>>89445215
Kek Marvelcucks BTFO

>>89450855
>defending mid-0s DC
>even defending mid-0s Marvel
SHIGGIDY

>>89453041
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsfhADiaP5E

>>89450667
>>89450614
>>89449724
>>89449597

>Marlel sucks so that means all comics suck

every time.

>>89440967
None of what you posted is true

>>89453179
They didn't say that, though.

i really hate marvel, fuck them

>>89440329
X-Factor
X-Force
Brubaker's cap
Hercules
Agents of Atlas
Ultimate Spider-Man
Iron man Director of SHIELD
Entirety of cosmic Marvel up to Thanos Imperative
Daredevil
Moon Knight
Fraction's Iron Fist

There's a lot in there I would miss. This meme that Marvel is nothing but shit needs to die.

>>89439880
how do we destroy marvel finally

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>>89439880
>tfw jumped into comics in 2012 and Mahvel keep providing convenient jumping off points

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>>89444806
>Comics should be top priority
Wanna know how I know you're a poorfag?

>>89446673
Give the Great American Novel thread a look. The site has a page that explains what happened.

>>89440159
>my customers often tell me that a big number one on a Marvel title means a jumping off point rather than a jumping on one.
Fucking savage.

>>89453632
They're doing a good job of that themselves.

>>89441225

>Wait, did people even like it?

You mean, do people like the best x-force book?

>>89448065
Basically we'll never be happy, we want nostalgia but we also want character evolution, whenever a series relaunches it shows that marvel doesn't Really want progress in the character's story, just the illusion of progress. Whenever some new direction is being taken with the character, bad or good, they reboot and we have to watch them go through it again. Ita why I'm still reading invincible even after it turned to shit about...30 issues ago? The story is still going somewhere, and it feels like it has purpose.

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>>89453949
Not that anon but

>Comic industry shouldn't be focusing on improving comics, they should focus on making more movies and video games

Nice shit posting right here

>>89440223
SJWs don't have to be your audience. SJWs are dead.

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>>89453221
Ms. Marvel has been out of the top 100 since October and in the last recorded monthly sales for her, her book was below 24k in sales. CWII hurt her sales.


>November
115. Ms Marvel 13 23,621

Chomichron November 2016

She's approaching cancellation numbers.

granted they'll probably renumber her series (for the 2nd time) but that is only a temporary fix at best and if OP's article is anything to go buy the public is getting weary of the cycle of new #1s

Kamala had actual buzz, the diversity they want to push, and was actually not bad. and then they had to go and fucking kill it.

>>89453949
Someone who buys several titles a week is the opposite of a poorfag.

>>89446673
Going by years of threads on /co/ and other comics discussion places, I always notice that the people complaining the most about comics not being sold in grocery stores or whatever are the ones who don't actually pay attention to where monthly comics are sold outside from comic shops. Or for that matter read any news about newsstand-distributed titles.

Marvel raised prices on the newsstand titles back in the late 00's and then got out of selling them on the newsstand four years ago. And since last year any DC title that's $2.99 at the comic shop is $3.99 on the newsstand.

Marvel and DC would rather keep the price low, but newsstands don't want lower priced comics because for some reason it's not cost-effective for them and they could use the space for some other more expensive magazine.

Ironically a lot of magazines have folded in the last eight years so in theory there should start to be space for comics (which I guess might also have been why Barnes and Nobles started heavily stocking monthly Marvel and DC comics years ago) but a lot of people aren't aware of it. Especially the people complaining about how comics aren't sold at 7-11s or grocery stores.

>>89447013
Only the first CW2 tie-in got a small boost in sales, but then after that the orders for the other CW2 tie-ins went below the pre-CW2 comic.

>>89454968
Do newsstands even exist anymore? I've never seen one, and the only source of magazines I know of are subscription, gas stations, and those little thingies with free job listings.

>>89455313
Some are around but it's pretty rare. When people talk about newsstand market they usually refer not just to newsstands but also grocery stores and bookstores that carry magazines (keep in mind: the sales for TPBs and monthly comics at a bookstore are different entities)

>>89454968
>Barnes and Nobles started heavily stocking monthly Marvel and DC comics years ago
But they don't have any Marvel comics on their stands now

>>89457099
Yeah, cause Marvel got out of the newsstand market like four or five years ago.

>>89455313
They're all over the place in Sydney, though their bread and butter is selling soft drinks

>>89450837
Oh please, Jaime's 06 series is better than any of Ted's solo series. Ted was always a team book guy, at least Jaime carried a solo title well.

>>89457470
John Rogers should write more comics.

>>89440426
Scarlet Spider is one, and I also really liked X-Men Legacy.

Everything else I could either take or leave.

>>89450667
>if it wasn't for the fact that they have such shitty edgelord antagonists.

At least they have antagonists and if a hero does tussle with another hero it's framed as part of a test or sports event or something fun

>>89440136
>>89440136
>There really isn't anything special about a first issue anymore.

It's the '90 collector shit all over again.

>>89460109

Do we even get cool hologram covers or all the variants lining up to form one big picture?

>>89460141
Only from mid-level publishers like IDW or Udon

>>89440805
>Giving an who people called an Edgy Clone of Peter the best character development he's had in years

>boring

Bet you enjoy Slott Spidey.

>>89440329
i liked starlin's thanos run

>>89440329
Just jumpin on what other people have said.

I'd miss:
Scarlet Spider
Agent Venom
Superior Foes
DnA Guardians
DnA Nova
Moon Knight
Vision
Carnage
Ultimates
Uncanny X Force
The current Nova
I'm sure there's more

>>89460739
>The current Nova
Too soon to talk, isn't it?

>>89450333
the 90s x-men were all adults

>>89451784
>explain spiderverse
it's dumb

>explain gems in a glove
and the villain that wanted to get them was defeated

>MWII
also stupid

not going to sit here and defend it. that seems to be the biggest difference between Marvel and DC fans. Marvel fans admit when Marvel is stupid. DC fans really don't.

>>89460141
DC and Marvel do it on rare occasions. DC does the lenticular stuff, and connecting variants usually happen at least once a year. I recall Justice League rebirth had connecting variants for a few issues.

>>89440967
>who aims to follow her idols

Actually, this aspect was the nadir of the entire book. It was at its shittiest when it did it.

Though to be fair, shitty Carol Danvers in Ms Marvel is still a thousand times more palatable than general BuzzCut anywhere else

>>89461464
>Marvel fans admit when Marvel is stupid. DC fans really don't
That's not remotely universal you fucking cuck

>>89460141
Nope, just a #1 on the cover.

>>89461795
Even in issues not actually numbered #1

how about we just start over every year like clockwork, then it'll be like TV seasons. normies can understand that

>>89461464
More like DC fans don't agree about the things Marvel fans think are stupid. Cry for Justice is roundly mocked. Amazons Attack is known for being atrocious. Identity Crisis outright ruined some characters on the level of OMD. You can even find DC fans who will admit that Emerald Twilight was editorially mandated crapola.

DC fans are less likely to agree with a Marvelfag's assertion that Superman is "overpowered" and "unrelateable," or that Wonder Woman is shitty and only pushed for nostalgia, or other sweeping generalizations Marvelfags use to tar wide swaths of DC's history.

>>89462344
>Identity Crisis outright ruined some characters on the level of OMD.
Try on the level of civil war, or worse.

>>89462399
This is true. Flashpoint and the New 52 changes might be more comparable to OMD, but then of course it seems they're now implying the New 52 changes were Dr. Manhattan's fault instead.

Maybe Marvel will claim Mephisto was actually Miracleman all along.

>>89462344
holy shit how is superman not overpowered? how is he ANY different than star killer?

how is an alien that looks EXACTLY like a human relatable?

an alien that looks exactly like a human. seriously why. for what purpose.

>>89449597
Too bad Grape boy will forever be cucked.

>>89461709
oh, so there are DC fans that didn't like Kingdom Come? that's the logical conclusion of DC. some cheesy "final battle" bullshit.

are there any DC fans that view those comics and rehashing the same hellenistic schlock over and over?

>>89462768
*that view those comics as something OTHER than the same hellenistic schlock over and over*

>>89462768
>oh, so there are DC fans that didn't like Kingdom Come?
quite a few of them, yeah

>cheesy "final battle" bullshit
and it's still better than the pseudo-realistic schlock that Marvel tries to peddle as what REAL heroes would do

>>89462887
>what REAL heroes would do

clearly you haven't been paying attention to how authoritarian policies end up being shit and now iron man, cyclops and captain marvel aren examples of that in the comics

>>89463030
>the delusional marvel fanboy high on pseudo-realism shows his true colors
kek okay

>>89462887
>and it's still better than the pseudo-realistic schlock that Marvel tries to peddle as what REAL heroes would do
Marvelfag here, I agree.