Which one was the better deconstruction of their respective genres?

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>>89307621
>The Year of our Lord, CURRENT YEAR
>Still calling Eva a deconstruction

>>89307621
Both are fucking garbage. Being a shitty deconstruction of shit is still being shit.

>>89307621
>NGE
>Deconstruction
Explain.

>>89307689
People who know nothing about mecha anime like to pretend Evangelion is smart and deep because it makes them feel smart and deep

NGE was not a deconstruction of the mecha genre

the only thing it deconstructed was having teenagers as pilots. other than that, it brought grim dark and psychological horror themes to Mecha, but it didn't fucking deconstruct Mecha.

the deconstruction of mecha would be a series that deliberately tackles the issues of actually having Giant robots as weapons instead of a military.

watchmen wins by default, of course I personally like NGE better than watchmen

>>89307689
>>89307651

>>Deconstruction

I guess by deconstruction people means the TVtropes definition of a piece of media applying real world consequences to a fantasy setting.

For example in Super Robot shows the big robot saves the day and it's a friend of the children, the protag has fun piloting the robot.

In the "deconstruction" the Super Robot fighting causes collateral damage and kills the children, piloting the robot is mentally taxing for the protag that causes him to have mental breakdows.

>>89307826
>the deconstruction of mecha would be a series that deliberately tackles the issues of actually having Giant robots as weapons instead of a military.
So Gundam Wing?

>>89307831
>In the "deconstruction" the Super Robot fighting causes collateral damage and kills the children, piloting the robot is mentally taxing for the protag that causes him to have mental breakdows.
Mazinger Z and Gundam already do that pretty well, and they are known as the "codifiers" of Super and Real Robot.

>>89307826
>the deconstruction of mecha would be a series that deliberately tackles the issues of actually having Giant robots as weapons instead of a military.

Is Gundam 0079 a "deconstruction" then?

>>89307877
In a way, Gundam 0079 was a deconstruction of the Super robot genre that preceded it.

Zambot-3 also has some deconstructive elements.

What is Ideon.

>>89307877
>>89307870
>>89307852
>>89307831

the deconstruction would be a combinations of all of this

including

>heavy psychological toll on pilots
>actual reasoning for giant robots
>societal impacts of having technology for giant robots (i.E if we have the technology to build guit robots, whats the point we've reached a type 2 civ anyways)
>the issue of collateral damage
>the issue of some sort of monster showing up every week or so handled in a realistic way

>>89307826
>the deconstruction of mecha would be a series that deliberately tackles the issues of actually having Giant robots as weapons instead of a military.
That's literally what almost all the mecha series featuring themes and ideas related to military realism do. NGE is a deconstruction because it plays with the tropes of mecha and military and makes something new out of it.

>>89307956
NGE does most if not all of that already.

Is "Deconstruction" a Boolean concept? Does something have to be a perfect deconstruction of all aspects of something for it to be considered a deconstruction? Can we agree that Eva includes deconstructive elements?

>>89307975
>makes something new out of it.

I don't think that's what deconstruction means.

>>89307826
>the only thing it deconstructed was having teenagers as pilots.
Arguably though, that is the central aspect of the genre.

>>89307956
see
>>89307754

>>89308012
>no issue of collateral damage
>no actual reason for having robots

>>89308037
Not really. That's just animu's timeless old tricks.

>>89307621
People kept telling me That Eva was a deconstruction but it never seemed like that so I guess watchmen for actually being one?

>>89308045
Episode 2
Episode 7
Episode 22-26

>>89307826
The only thing that NGE deconstructed is the character interactions compared to popular archetypes.
The unlikely hero kid never assimilated to the situation, and reacted to shit like a teenager kid would.
The plucky hot-blooded heroine was an unlikable bitch with deep stemmed issues.
The mysterious shy girl is genuinely emotionless, dies when she starts getting a shred of agency and it's replaced by another emotionless clone.
The "abandoning dad" is genuinely abusive and uncaring towards his son.
Shit like that. BUT, that isn't to say there aren't already several works doing this kind of critique over normal story and archetype conventions. It's a big industry and it's hard to pinpoint which did it the same way as Watchmen.

>>89308045
Not him but NGE does both of those.

Toji's little sister is seriously wounded from the collateral damage caused by Eva Unit 01 vs. Sachiel in the very first episode.

And Evas are created from Adam and are literally the only things capable of actually hurting Angels, thanks to their deployable AT fields.

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>Evangelion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEOHGIEqyX8

After watching this I hate Shinji even more

>>89307956
>heavy psychological toll on pilots
Happens in Mazinger
>actual reasoning for giant robots
Happens in Mazinger
>societal impacts of having technology for giant robots (i.E if we have the technology to build guit robots, whats the point we've reached a type 2 civ anyways)
Happens in Mazinger, Photon energy.
>the issue of collateral damage
Again, Mazinger does this in the very introduction
>the issue of some sort of monster showing up every week or so handled in a realistic way
Also happens in Mazinger.

>>89308135
>hating Shinji

He is the most courageous and based protagonist in all of anime

>>89308109
>And Evas are created from Adam and are literally the only things capable of actually hurting Angels, thanks to their deployable AT fields.
See, this is the issue what that "actual reason for having the robots" thing is dumb, do you people thing other series don't justify their mecha? I mean, some don't but let's look at Gundam for instance.
The necessity of Minovsky particles for functioning practical fusion reactors. Because Minovsky Particles jam electromagnetic signals at higher concentrations, the expected long distance combat becomes impossible, creating a new age of close range combat. In addition, the limbs of a Mobile Suit, while in space, can be moved in ways to help turn and maneuver the suit without the need to waste fuel constantly firing all of its verniers.

>>89308109
>>89308083
>no societal impact form the EVA's

probably the biggest one, you can argue that selee is literally the Illuminati, but this has to be the biggest one

>>89308030
That's exactly what it means. Take Watchmen as an example, if only it was playing around the tropes of Capeshit while telling a normal Capeshit narrative, it would be either called a parody or a subversion. But it plays around the tropes and makes something completely new out of it. That's deconstruction.
Look at Miller's Daredevil, it plays around the tropes of Superhero/vigilantism, but it's not a deconstruction because it's still telling a Superhero story with all those ideas about how a relationship between a hero and villain remains or how much a hero sacrifices but still remains heroic. That's subversion. A parody for Superhero genre would be something that's making fun of the tropes.
Anime equivalent of subversion would be something like Madoka which is a subversion of something like Sailor Moon or Prequre which in itself is a subversion of their older predecessor. Kill la Kill on the other hand is part parody, part revisionist piece.

>not seeing Eva as the ultimate expression of Anno going apeshit

>>89308064
>but it never seemed like that
The battles in the show were largely psychological, and there was a distinct focus on the consequences and ramifications of having children pilot giant robots in crowded cities. And then after that, it dives downward and starts taking a literal approach to the concept of self-actualization and how it relates to human suffering.

It's anything but standard.

>>89308323
this IS what I see eva as, it's an expression of anno's loneliness and isolation

>>89307831
Then Bokurano is better than EVA

>>89308323
And not just Anno, but the end of the TV series, it was the whole production staff going apeshit

>>89307852
Gundam wing was star wars: the boyband.

>>89307956
So Bokurano.

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>>89308045
>no actual reason for having robots
>>89308109
>And Evas are created from Adam and are literally the only things capable of actually hurting Angels, thanks to their deployable AT fields.

Evas aren't exactly mechas though even if they show up in some Super Robot Wars games, they are more like human restrained kaijus , closer to cyborgs not quite robots.

The only 100% mecha in Evangelion was the useless nucler-powered Jet Alone.

>>89308304
>no societal impact form the EVA's
I mean it does and doesn't work in that manner. There's clearly a lot of things going on because Angles appeared, because EVA have to fight them, but you could argue that it's a premise of a lot of Mecha shows. But on the other hand it doesn't affect the society same as the appearance of Super beings in Miracleman or in Watchmen.

>>89308340
At being a deconstruction?
Possibly.

As a series, though?
Kitoh's works suffer from his tendency to create shallow disposable characters who only exist to die. He also relies too heavily on the "horror of the unknown", providing no real depth for the origin of the conflicts. What, you're interested in where this giant robot came from? Fuck you, that's where.

In allegory, it's like a muddy pond; You can't see the bottom, but that doesn't mean it's a lake.

>>89308410
>Evas aren't exactly mechas though even if they show up in some Super Robot Wars games, they are more like human restrained kaijus , closer to cyborgs not quite robots.
Wouldn't that support the argument that Eva is a deconstruction then? That the only thing capable of hurting the monsters of the week were cybernetic genetic monstrocities cloned FROM the same being that gave birth to the same monsters trying to kill all of humanity?

>>89308432
I always felt like the presence of Evas pretty obviously had a major impact on society, it's just that the staff chose to focus on other aspects, namely the psychological development of the main characters.

>>89308109
>>89308432
>>89308410
you're not getting what I'm saying, by no actual reason for having mecha's, I'm talking about the actual reason why they absolutley have to be MECHAS, or giant robots, and they just can't be some sort of super weapon or ship or something.
in EVA's case, The "mechs" are captured angels correct? and they need the captured angels because of AT feilds right? logically the next step in military action would be to create a weapon with anti AT feild capablilties, like an anti AT canon or a net or a field or something like that, there really isn't a justifiable reason why they're made into walking robots.

the other thing is that EVA doesn't really have a societal impact because of discovering EVA or the angels, sure maybe you can't harvest energy out of it, but there would be tons of repurcusions
>evidence of life on other planets
>evidence of intelligent life
>evidence of our creation
>evidence of maybe even a God or Godlike figure

but none of that really shows up in EVA, granted I know Seele pulls strings sometimes, but like there's never any sort of politcal repurcusion or everyone sort of getting angry that EVA's could potentially cause the end of the world.

>>89308616
The AT Field is strictly of biological origin and a manifestation of a person's ego. In the series, a company tries to do it and is ultimately sabotaged by NERV for this reason.

Robots can't have AT feilds no matter how hard you try.

>but like there's never any sort of politcal repurcusion or everyone sort of getting angry that EVA's could potentially cause the end of the world.
Actually, the series shows that a lot of misato's job is dealing with the UN and people complaining that their homes were destroyed by the angels.

The basic issue is that NERV really does not have the time or resources to give a fuck, and at most negotiates to only have 3 active at most.

>>89308774
>and at most negotiates to only have 3 active evas at most.
Fixd

>>89308616
>logically the next step in military action would be to create a weapon with anti AT feild capablilties, like an anti AT canon or a net or a field or something like that, there really isn't a justifiable reason why they're made into walking robots.
Did we ever find out exactly what allowed Evas to be able to generate AT Fields? Were they even capable of putting that in some kind of "anti-AT cannon"?

Also, the bipedal "design" of the Evas give them a multi-purpose role that allows them to be more flexible than something like a cannon or a net, allowing them more creativity in responding to threats. I'm not sure if that's an in-universe explanation but it make
s enough sense to justify them as "mecha".

>but none of that really shows up in EVA, granted I know Seele pulls strings sometimes, but like there's never any sort of politcal repurcusion or everyone sort of getting angry that EVA's could potentially cause the end of the world.
SEELE pulls a lot of strings and keeps the public mostly ignorant to a lot of things. I doubt the public even knows what an S2 engine even is.

There's no societal impact from having Evas because we don't "have" Evas. They're eldritch black boxes we've managed to jury rig as fighting vehicles while barely understanding the basic principles behind them. The whole point is that the Evas aren't a triumph of human technology. They're monstrosities that are just as likely to bite our heads off as help us.

Now as for the societal impact of the war which makes the Evas necessary, that's pretty much obvious.

>>89307831
>In the "deconstruction" the Super Robot fighting causes collateral damage and kills the children, piloting the robot is mentally taxing for the protag that causes him to have mental breakdows.
Gundam does it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHwxkPl6FuI

>>89307621
>implying post-modern deconstruction is a good thing

>>89308815
>Did we ever find out exactly what allowed Evas to be able to generate AT Fields? Were they even capable of putting that in some kind of "anti-AT cannon"?
We did. Kaworu explains it before his death.

It is the physical manifestation of a person's ego. Angels basically have th willpower of god, hence why theirs manifests so powerfully. Humans have them too, but the most we can do with them is keep ourselves fully constituted. This is why you see people in Evangelion turn into goop so often; because they get so thoroughly mindfucked that they just collapse into LCL.

Either way, it's not something you can give a machine.

I like both, but I'm a much bigger fan of Evangelion. I viewed it as an examination of the fragility of humanity. Humans always feel alone, and seek out other humans to validate their own existence via interaction and conflict.

>>89308593
>Wouldn't that support the argument that Eva is a deconstruction then? That the only thing capable of hurting the monsters of the week were cybernetic genetic monstrocities cloned FROM the same being that gave birth to the same monsters trying to kill all of humanity?

That's more or less the same "main mech is made of the enemy's technology and the only thing actually viable in fighting the MotW" shtick found in countless other robot shows.

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>Watchmen
>deconstruction

>NGE
>deconstruction

>>89309079
No one thinks you're funny, anon.

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>>89307621
Who hates their industry more?
Moore or Anno?

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>>89309178
Moore hates the rabid fans, Anno is hated by rabid fans.

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>>89309219

Neither.

I couldn't make half way through NGE when I tried to watch it.
I liked Watchmen.

>>89309114
I'm not being funny.

All of these threads 404 in half-points and failed arguments, with zero basis in the literary concepts that such a nuanced discussion of the topic normally entails, instead replaced by TVTropes plagiarism, irrelevant and baseless evidence, and embarrassing surface level knowledge of both mediums that the works are a part of, and, most importantly, the school of cultural analysis that such an assertion would be founded on in the first place.

The people who insist NGE is a "deconstruction" haven't watched enough mecha, never-mind anime, and the ones who say the same of Watchmen haven't read enough capes, never-mind comics.

>>89309178
You really aren't any good at shit posting.

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>>89307621
>Watchmen
>Deconstruction
KEK. Now this is a deconstruction

>>89308099
I do like how almost everyone in Eva on some level are broken terrible people Gendo as a manipulative coward whose willing to do anything just to reunite with his wife Shinji an over emotionally depressed teenager misato desperately wants someone in her life going so far as to actively trying to fuck Shinji rei is an unemotionally person but actually tries to improve herself and that just a few of the characters

>>89309259
can't it be argued that artistic meaning derived from the eye of the beholder also has merit, in addition to that of the artist?

>>89309652

But does that mean that everyone's views are equally valid, or that their views should affect the work itself?

>>89309414
>The last half of a brilliant comic you were reading turns into a self wank of author's self fantasies about Ubermensch philosophy
Truly anon.

>>89309686
'Valid' in some context. The point I was trying to make is that it's more about what people take away from something given the lenses through which they view it.

>>89309873
The Ubermensch rute was the only way.

>>89309341
Instead of being a contrarion retard, either contribute or fuck off. Your post literally reads like a tryhard saying everything to look pretentious but you lack the self awareness to even pull that kind of shitpost off.

>>89309932
I'm no shitposting, and I'm not being contrarian. Contribute to what exactly? The same thread we've always had, with the same empty ideas and unfounded evidence?

Both works are so clearly not in the realm of deconstruction, but I'll look at any evidence or arguments presented, since the burden lies on the initial assertion. I'm not opposed to that. Just stating that this has happened before, and is happening now, and will happen again.

There's nothing there or here. Try otherwise, I am interested.

>>89309923
Yeah but it was done really poorly. It throws all the realism out of the window and reads like a first year philosophy student just read a bunch of Nietzsche and decided to write a thinly veiled fictional thesis about it.
At least when Watchmen tackles the stuff like utilitarianism, predeterministic and other ideologies, it doesn't come as amateurish.

>>89310007
Let's start with you telling us what deconstruction is and how Watchmen isn't a deconstruction.

>>89309414
It's not even deconstruction.

>>89307621
Hands down watchmen.

I don't think Asians have any creative talent.

>>89310127
Not how this works, and yet it pops up every fucking time this thread occurs. Guaranteed.

I'm not make any assertions, due to the zero point, you are the one asserting in the positive, for the existence of an element. That leaves the burden of proof on YOU for the sake of this argument. I don't need to say anything in regards to how it's *not*, you have to provide evidence that it *is*.

So, when making an assertion in the positive, it's always up to you to provide a.) what is the basis of your argument, b.) how the argument is supported by evidence and reasoning, from both the work itself and critical theory, and c.) the conclusion of the implications in regards to the initial basis and applied analysis.

I can't *prove* Watchmen ISN'T a deconstruction, since I can't provide evidence of something that doesn't exist. It's up to you to provide the reasoning for your claim, in which then I provide the counter.

The direct before the cross, as it were and always is.

>>89310203
Asians have some of the earliest-written creative works in the history of mankind.

>>89310288
You can at least tell what deconstruction actually means fuckwit. How Watchmen is a deconstruction has been said a thousand times, it's up to you to prove how it isn't a deconstruction and provide an example of what a deconstruction is since you're going against the grain. I'm not going to write a blog here and say the stuff that's already been said, least of all because you'll dismiss every point by saying that's not a deconstruction or that's been done before while not actually telling what a deconstruction means to you clearly. There's an objective definition of the phrase deconstruction out there and I doubt yours is that.

>>89310203
You should read Hindu mythology if you want creative.

>>89310461
>How Watchmen is a deconstruction has been said a thousand times
Post one example.
>I'm not going to write a blog here and say the stuff that's already been said
Just one.
>There's an objective definition of the phrase deconstruction out there and I doubt yours is that.
A single link.

>>89307831
by that logic Watchmen isnt a deconstruction

>>89310564
Throw that all aside and teach me about deconstruction in literature and media anon. What is your definition? We can shitpost all day and go round and round, why not take an initiative.

>>89310133
It is and is the best one.

>>89308815
>I'm not sure if that's an in-universe explanation
They're cyborgs with mechanical parts grafted on. Most of them were cloned from a giant humanoid, the First Angel. Unit-01 was created from a different angel, but one that was also humanoid.

So, they're bipeds because they're clones/cuttings from other giant bipeds.

>>89307621
Well one is something normal people know what it is and the other is stupid weeb shit no one cares about.

>>89307621
is Watchmen the Akira of /co/

>>89307754
Just because something is a deconstruction doesn't mean it is deep.

>>89308932
That's a mech vs mech war setting. EVA is the more fantastic mech vs kaiju setting.

>>89308030
>>89307956

You're not actually deconstructing something without simultaneously actually reconstructing the thing you're deconstructing . Simply applying darker and more "realistic" themes to something is nothing more than making something edgy.

>>89311387
and Eva is neither

>>89308829
Considering how nothing else short of complete nuclear anihilaton can even kill most angels cyborg-alien angel clones jury rigged into being piloted machines with emotionally unstable pilots was basically there only option

>>89308165
Honestly everyone should just watch Mazinger instead of NGE.

>>89308616
>logically the next step in military action would be to create a weapon with anti AT feild capablilties, like an anti AT canon
SEELE already did that with the synthetic Spears of Longinus wielded by the mass-production Eva series. But by and large, the world's governments don't have access to the ancient alien tech that would let them manipulate AT fields at all.

Did you watch the show and End of Eva? This is all shown front and centre in the series.

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>>89311617
Probably better to read Mazinger, I'm pretty sure the TV series is watered down for kids. [Spoiler] Though I haven't watched it myself, last time I tried, all I could found were the Crabstick subs, pic related [/spoiler]

Neon Genesis: Evangelion hands down. its not even close

>>89307754
People who like NGE tend to like it for the characters and the believable depictions of depression and self loathing not the 2deep4u psychology 101 stuff.

>>89311873
I know that, I like Eva myself, I was describing people who call it a deconstruction

>>89308565
>Kitoh's works suffer from his tendency to create shallow disposable characters who only exist to die.

This is why Bokurano basically didn't work at all. Narutaru (the manga not the anime), while having it's own problems, did a better job since it focused more on fewer important characters.

>>89311911
Then fair enough. The problem in my mind is that the term deconstruction has lost pretty much all meaning at this point so there's no way to say if it is or isn't one.

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Well, this argument never goes anywhere, but let me drop my two cents.

Let me preface this by defining what a deconstruction is, at least to me. A deconstructive work is a work that subverts and criticized the fundamental appeal of its genre. Now, this can be as easily done with a grimdark or a lighthearted atmosphere, there's no requirement. There's plenty of comedic films that subvert gritty movies, for example. So to People go to Cape comics for a power fantasy, to see cool battles, and for the exhilaration and catharsis of watching good triumph over evil. Watchmen pretty deliberately does away with all three, emphasizing that power is a burden, battles are violent and senseless, and that morality isn't so clear most of the time. Compare that to, say, Ruin. Which also subverts genre convention and makes everything "realistic" and "dark" but never attacks these genre pillars at all. It's simply a dark interpretation of the genre, not one that criticizes the genre itself.

Eva is a bit of a nutcase. The show starts off actually exceptionally genre-positive. I'd argue that the first 12 episodes are what makes Eva such a cultural icon, not the dark second half. Eva was really the first show to take multiple disparete genres of anime and fuse them together into something almost everyone could enjoy. There was a healthy mix of drama, action, comedy, etc that takes tropes from every previous popular anime. It was decidedly postmodern, but certainly not a deconstruction. A pastiche is a better word for it. But as Anno's depression worsened, his love for anime turned to contempt and the second half was spent on a refutation of everything the former established. You could call it a deconstruction of mecha, but as Eva had swept so many genres into itself, and then attacked them en masse, probably more accurate to call it a deconstruction of ALL anime. That scene in EoE where it shows the audience before telling Shinji to get a fucking life sums this attitude up.

>>89311710
>I'm pretty sure the TV series is watered down for kids.

Pretty much all of Go Nagai's manga are watered down for kids in anime form. Case in point: Devilman.

Even though you could get away with nudity in anime directed at younger people in the 70s/80s you've always been able to get away with much more in manga.

>>89312090
Yeah, I was basing that assumption on what I knew about the Devilman anime anyways. At least they have cool theme songs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR7xA2JbNCQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTVj-4uiOt4

>>89311710
The anime is still pretty brutal. 1st season ends with the heroes getting fucking wrecked.

>>89307621
Watchman made more sense as a "deconstruction" of its genre (i.e. showing how fucked-up things would be with superheroes running around). I'm aware that's not what deconstruction means but nobody understands the actual definition.

Evangelion seems to have had a deeper and more lasting impact on anime than Watchman on comics, the "boundaries" of its influence aren't as stark as Watchman. I also enjoyed it a lot more though I don't think Watchman is bad or anything.

>>89307621
>deconstruction
subversion
you can't use fiction to deconstruct fiction because being fiction inherently leaves it open to different interpretations. the goal of a deconstruction is to pick apart and examine EVERY interpretation

>>89308193
It seems like everyone gave up on hating Shinji at once, I remember half of Eva discussion a decade or so ago being gay emo jokes about him.

>>89312571

I think a lot of those people grew up and realized "oh I was gay emo Shinji."

>>89307621
I found it hard to keep reading Watchmen. I want to like it because of how important it is to the genre but I can't get into it for some reason.

>NGE
>deconstruction
just what the fuck did it deconstruct?

>>89312570
>you can't use fiction to deconstruct fiction
you 100% can, what the fuck

>the goal of a deconstruction is to pick apart and examine EVERY interpretation
no it's not, in fact deconstruction often means picking apart a very specific angle

>>89312853
the social habits of the Japanese, particularly the ramifications of Honne and Tatemae culture on the individual's ability to form meaningful bonds

>>89307826
>the only thing it deconstructed was having teenagers as pilots. other than that, it brought grim dark and psychological horror themes to Mecha, but it didn't fucking deconstruct Mecha.

But it did on the most fundamental level. It turns out that the Evas are biological creatures that are restrained by their armor and (somehow) contain the soul of their pilot's mothers. Because there's no way a metal robot could move as fluidly or quickly as the Evas do. In one episode they even bring out a giant robot to fight the Angels in the hope that they don't have to rely on unstable teens anymore, and it can barely walk.

>>89312040
Good post.

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>>89313080

It can waddle at a brisk pace.

Evangelion is a lot better IMO, for various different reasons.

>>89313234
I would say that they're two completely different things and can't really be compared with a ones better than the other logic

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a realistic/gritty take on something doesn't instantly scream deconstruction to anyone with half a brain, such a person would immediately see there's a completely different idea behind those works
on another note, Evangelion is nowhere near the level of the masterwork that is Watchmen

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>>89313764
What are you talking about Anon all that pseudo Christianity imagery is deeper than the ocean

>stealth not-stealth anime thread on /co/
Well done.

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>>89313867
It's all fits together like pottery

>>89309686
The work is just the view's source
Wether a view should be viewed as valid depends on how the viewers view the views
Ans wether a viewer's view of the work should be affected by pre-existing views is up to the viewers
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>>89313586
They might be incomparably different in a vacuum, but in context that had very similar effects on their respective mediums.

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>>89312040

That's a great explanation, anon.

>>89308340
>Deconstruction taken as meaning "cynical "real world" take on fantasy elements

>So we got this cosmic tournament where kids have to pilot robots against kids and only one universe can survive

No

>>89308410
Eva wasn't the first to do the "it's really alive" thing. Getter did that. Eva wasn't the first to do the "it's made of biological shit" thing. Dunbine did that.

>>89309686
validity is tied to how much evidence you can procure from the source material. when comparing two viewpoints, the one with the most evidence is more valid. however, so long as there is at least some evidence, a viewpoint is not invalidated by the existence of more valid viewoints

>>89307621
Watchmen was a deconstruction because it took superhero ideas and gutted them. Silver Age Superman was a man given godpowers who everyone loves, who maintains a social life, and knows the best thing to do. Manhattan was a man given godpowers, who everyone feared, who was too autistic to maintain a social life, and had no idea what the fuck he was doing.

NGE was Archie with giant robots.

As for which one is a better story Watchmen rapes the shit out of NGE. Like Mike Tyson vs a toddler.

>>89308338
Anno isnt relatable so his characters aren't relatable. I think it's easier to accept eva after knowing this

>>89313080
>talking shit about the only good thing to come from eva

Jet Alone was fine until it was sabotaged by nerv so they could keep jerking off over their oversized cyborgs.

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>>89312040
>A deconstructive work is a work that subverts and criticized the fundamental appeal of its genre.
That could be done through parody and outright criticism too.
Subverting things for laughs or just straight out calling out a genre's key points on being dumb.
Gotta go that one step further and prove you can fix it, or at least make something nice out of the wreck you left after your attacks.

>>89307956
All of that was literally done first in MS Gundam. Yes, even the last one with White Base being attacked by a new Zeon suit every episode.

>>89307831
>A big robot saves the day and its a friend of the children

Since fucking when? Mazinger and Getter were always looked on by the characters as "holy shit that thing is dangerous" and they saved the day by murdering the fuck out of people. Kids and giant robots came later with the Eldoran series.

>>89308024
The problem is nothing it did was original. Even its cosmic mumbo jumbo+robots thing was already done by Getter and Dunbine.

NGE is giant robots for casuals. Its the giant robot series for people that don't like giant robots like how Star Wars is science fiction for people that don't like science fiction.

>>89314581
>he didnt find eva incredibly relatable

normies get out

>>89307938
>Ideon
Came here to post this.

NGE is an unabashed Space Runaway Ideon rip-off right down to the EoE to the point of it being plagarism, I always found it odd that Anno was worried people might see how NGE was a Devilman rip-off but he didn't comment on it being seen as a SRI rip-off. Sadamoto has mentioned it once though.

>>89308815
an anti-AT cannon is plausible, but it would be using the mass produced Lancea Longinus copies as ammo rather than anything from an Eva

>>89314756
Blue blazes and nichijou do it better for me

>>89308099
>Unlikely hero going autistic and not caring about stuff because of the trauma of fighting.

Amuro, Kamille

>Plucky hot-blooded heroine with issues

>Mysterious shy girl is a literal disposable clone that gives the hero an Oedipus complex

These two are EVA's and the waifu bait is why the series sells like hot cakes.

>Abandoned dad is abusive and uncaring toward his son

Tem Ray

>>89311617
This is true.

>>89310564
>Superheroes are written as responses to Cold War trauma where a person has superpowers and does the responsible and noble thing with them

>Watchmen heroes have no idea what they're doing and make their world a worse place to live in, dragging out the Cold War when normal humans could have ended it.

Watchmen is "people with superpowers or super skills are crazy, unstable, and fuck shit up".

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>>89313867
If that is true then the Ultra series are the fucking Mariana Trenches.

>>89314756
>relating to stable of mentally damaged people led by a conspiracy of elites that want to return to the womb

>>89314422
Will we ever get end of Evangellion or the tv series bluray stateside?

Watchmen is good

Gurren lagann feels more like a deconstruction than Eva.
It makes fun of mecha tropes while referencing them.

>>89314873
>>89315048

I hate reading anything about eva because I have near religious reverence for it. It's my favorite work in any medium, and the one that's moved me by far the most. Everything else you could possibly mention intrinsically pales in comparison to NGE for me.

There are authentic, empirical reasons why eva's great. Philosophically I find it very interesting (I'm a sucker for pop-phi). It's score and directing are great. But any description I could make of my reasons for loving it just can't encapsulate how emotionally affected by eva I am nearly every day, and every time I think about it. It's like it was made specifically for me.

>>89312040
Why was Anno so depressed throughout NGE?

>>89314759

I've always seen Anno be really open about Ideon being his favorite anime (he even forces his wife to watch it in that manga she wrote about him). I think nobody brings it up because it's so obvious.

>>89312448
Evangelion's impact on anime was waifus.

>>89315718
and massive overmerchandising

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Weebs, what are some good animu series?

I've only seen Seria Experiments Lain, Death Note, Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni and yes, Boku no Pico. Recommend me some shit.

>>89315798
How much bank does Anno make anyways?

>>89315374
>>89315798
>>89316053
Because he realized that all his money and acclaim wasn't from writing a great science fiction story but from feeding otakus with waifubait and SO DEEP robot fights.

He realized that the food he eats and the bed he sleeps in are paid for by the very people he hates-the Otaku.

Imagine if you tried to write something to parody and satirize someone you hated only to realize that they loved it and completely missed the point of what you were trying to say, and that they're buying body pillows and model kits of your creations.

He took a swing at the Otaku and it backfired horribly.

>>89315967
Nichijou

>>89316176
don't forget that he's an otaku too, so he basically hates himself.
eva was meant to be a wake up call for his kind, yet it didn't work

>>89315967
>Boku no Pico

That makes me think you're baiting, but just in case you're not: what are you looking for?

Did you like Lain? Would something similar be interesting to you or did you not like it and why?

>>89316313
>That makes me think you're baiting, but just in case you're not: what are you looking for?
It was a joke since apparently on /a/ every time someone asks for anime recs you get told to watch Boku no Pico.

>Did you like Lain? Would something similar be interesting to you or did you not like it and why?
Yes, I really liked it.

>>89307621
i think NGE was harder to deconstruct, since teenagers piloting giant humanoid robots is much more bizarre of a concept than adult vigilantes wearing costumes and masks.

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>>89315374
a mix of his own self confidence issues, budget problems with the show, and the state of Japan during the production of the series.

don't listen to people who claim he was solely depressed because "muh otaku", they don't knew jack.

>>89316432
>Yes, I really liked it.

Try some of the following they have one or more of the same people working on them (director, writer, designer)

Texhnolzye
Kino's Journey (the best of these three imo)
Haibane Renmei

Try some of these they have either similar presentation, themes, or tone:

Neon Genesis Evangelion (Lain borrows much of its style from the second half of this show watch order: Episodes 1-20, 21-24 directors cuts, 25 and 26, End of Evangelion movie)
Ergo Proxy
Perfect Blue (movie)
Jin-Roh
Angel's Egg
Ghost in the Shell (1995 movie)
Patlabor the Movie 1 & 2 (You should probably watch the 7 episode "Patlabor the Early Days" first. It's a bit more light hearted)

Misc recommendations:

Cowboy Bebop (space jazz)
Samurai Champloo (hip-hop samurai)
Black Lagoon (watch it dubbed)
FLCL (my favorite anime)
Gunbuster (and the sequel Diebuster)
FMA and/or FMA:B
Legend of the Galactic Heroes (if you like Dune and/or Game of Thrones)

>>89316289
So now he's pissed that no one got the joke sleeping with his Rei bed pillow surrounded by figures and cash

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>>89307621
Dude, even KissXSis is a deeper deconstruction than Eva.

EVA is great but Watchmen is miles better

>>89307621
NGE is shitty desu, I've watched the series and tried watching the movies and I don't fucking get the hype at all. It has an interesting premise and setting, but most of the characters were so uninteresting and/or unlikable I didn't give a fuck about anything that happened to them.

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>>89317042
>they weren't perfect characters so i hate them and the entire series
congrats on being a retard.

>>89317131
So you want the guy to immediately disregard the fact that the entire anime is about character development of characters he doesn't like or care about?
This is always the biggest problem with Evangelion, Shinji is an unlikable, unrelatable fuck to most people, and the only enjoyment alot of people can get is from the combat at the episodes where it's not just him whinge-ing. There are a plethora of other mech anime out there that deconstruct it better but it's just babby's first waifu show and therefore it's held up as the gold standard. Fucking Shin Mazinger deconstructed mech better than Eva.

>>89317131
That is not even close to what that anon said. You're the one being a retard here.

>>89317252
>whinge-ing

>>89316759
>Kino's Journey
How have I never seen any /tv/ jokes about this?

>>89317355
Good counter argument, faggot.

>>89314491
Bokurano was plenty cynical and real.

>>89317042
Yeah that was a turn off for me everyone was an asshole and who kept using pseudo intellectual bullshit as an excuse but they still kept fucking up until they completely break down But it does add a bit more depth he'll Gendo was played being a unemotional asshole when he really was a cowardly asshole who couldn't man up to the connections he's made with others and all the shit he's done for his master plan

>>89318075
It's cynicism is undone by how fantastic the whole thing is. You might as well argue Lovecraft wrote deconstruction.

>>89313080
>somehow
an Eva is inert until someone performs a 'contact experiment', this is that suppressed memory Shinji has of coming to Nerv as a kid and seeing his mother.
Shinji's mother got completely tanged and absorbed by the Eva. Asuka's mother just had a huge chunk of her soul eaten. This left her insane.
When they tried to retrieve Yui from 01 when she tanged, they instead pulled out the first Rei. a hybrid of Yui and Lillith. The first Rei got killed by Ritsuko's mother and it's implied they stuck a chunk of her soul in 00 and the rest in Rei II

>>89315967

Shigofumi
Vampire Hunter D
Shinsekei Yori
Daily Lives of Highschool Boys
Bakemonogatari
Big O
Golden Boy
Kara no Kyoukai
Samurai Champloo
Revolutionary Girl Utena
Katanagatari
Baccano

>>89318178
deconstruction, no, but Lovecraft's works were very subversive of the prevalent racial and cultural attitudes of his contemparies. many of his stories revolve around upper-class rich twits discovering that their 'good breeding' is all a lie, their family fortune was made via profane acts, and seemingly every 'lesser' race is more in touch with their gods and reap much more real rewards for their devotion than any good christian could ever hope.
it's amusing since he wasn't seeking out to subvert anything, he was just letting his own prejudices inform his idea of what's horrifying

>>89318191
So did rei in the rebuild get absorbed by the Eva or by Shinji?

>>89318667
ambiguous. there's no precedent for a normal human to absorb someone else's soul, but at the same time Rebuild also established that pilots are no longer 'normal' humans. they've stopped aging, and may have other unusual traits too

>>89316759
>>89318379
Thanks guys.

>>89313867
said no one ever

It was common in the early days, but by this point, I think most people realise that it was just to look spooky and cool.

>>89315374
>>89316634
Wasn't he going through a messy breakup at the time, too?

NGE did a better job of deconstruction its genre. It showed a much more realistic look at kids forced to fight for their lives against impossible odds and giant monsters. Unfortunately, a realistic look at that ends up full of pussies nobody really likes, so it's not a great show, even if it's a great deconstruction.

>>89320487
Yeah if you put mentally unstable people in charge things of saving the world things aren't going to end well for anyone and everyone's going to come off as an asshole