this pic was made by /co/ or /v/ almost 10 years ago, does

>>89123848
It was never true to start with.

>>89123848
This is among the oldest images I have saved, from even before my hard drive crashed.

>>89123883
This one is infinitely better

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>>89123848
Well, it sure does in the sense that comics grew up and took lessons from heavy literature. We see now that the idea of "Evil Vs. Good" is rather childish and reduces the O'So great world of ours into a Black and White scenario. That's, relating to the picture, the reason for Ozzymandias existence in "Watchmen", a comic which itself shits on superhero media. Its a rather bleak simplification of the concept, but the picture is rather true and still holds up.

>Pic related

>>89123848
Ozymandias is a retard tho

>>89123875
This. It's puerile bait garbage.

>>89123848
>Reluctant villains who only do evil things because of the situation they find themselves in.

And what situation did Breen find himself in?

>>89123848
This list assumes that well-intentioned extremism always equals a good villain. It doesn't.

Zoom is one of the best comic villains, and his motives have nothing to do with doing good with evil methods (the first one, at least).

That said, I'm not sure how Irenicus is on the /v/ list. He seemed mostly generic to me, with his "muh elves sent me away" being more of a background footnote. Or maybe I was just too tired of his shit throughout the game that I didn't care about his backstory anymore.

>>89123883
This list is better, because it doesn't make villain's good intentions a cornerstone.

>>89123883
I'm down for this.

>confusing antagonists with villains

>>89123883
is darkseid really simple though? obviously he's become that in the new 52, but kirby's character was arguably one of the most complex (or at least best written) villains of the time when he was being published

>>89123848
Dooku was not a reluctant villain.

>>89123988
The planet had just been invaded by aliens lured to Earth by his research facility's experiments in Xen and humanity's collective military might took 7 hours to surrender to them

>>89123988
Breen became the human ambassador to the aliums. He had a choice to either co-operate with them and be their stooge and help them enslave humanity, or to tell them to get tae fuck and have it become a bloodbath.

Breen is more of a coward or a man who did what he had to than anything else.

>>89124138
not sure if bait or not, but it's not dooku.

it's the administrator from half life 2

>>89123848
>Ozymandias
>Anything but Absolute Shit Tier
All of you and the creator of this need to neck themselves.

>>89124225
eh he certainly isn't the "good guy" he's presented as in these images, but he is a complex and interesting villain, certainly above most comic book bad guys

>>89124299
>he is a complex and interesting villain
Jesus fucking Christ.

>>89123848
>Elder God Tier: Well written villains.
>Shit tier (but can be sometimes fun): Shit written Villains.

>>89124225
Shut up

>>89124329
fpbp

>>89123848
It never held up.
Because it implies that quality of writing isn't what makes a villain good.
Villains can be super evil and well written, villains can be conflicted or working for the greater good but shit

>>89124299
Ozymandias is basically a punchline.

>>89123848
No and it never did.

>>89123883
This is a lot better. Though I think the bottom two are actually on equal levels.

>>89124329
And this is the truest of all examples.

>>89124334
Get assrekt over your faggoty favorite.

>>89124362
They all were.


That was the point

Every thread this gets posted I will remind people that Anton Chigurh and Judge Holden are some of the best villains in all of fiction despite not being sympathetic or presented as in the right.
Also
>Lecter's motives
>mystery
They were chewed out and spoonfed to the reader/viewer in books, movies and even the TV series alike.

>>89124400
Nah, the comedian was the establishment, the other guys were the setup, Ozy was the punchline and the squid was the rimshot.

>>89124313
yes, faggot

when reading watchmen and finding out about his alexander shit in the interview, it's engaging. you want to find out more about the guy. when you have the context of him being the villain it's even more interesting. he feels like a real person that could exist.

it's even better when you realise just how much of what he did wasn't for the good of humanity, but because he hated the comedian

>>89124583
Nah, you're just an idiot who wouldn't know a complex villain if it hit you in the face.

>Elder God-tier
the protagonist is his own villain

>>89124601
who is a "complex villain" by your standards then?

>>89123883
>no villain
>Elder God tier
fucking millennials and their sanitized comfyshit.

>>89124489
>the squid was the rimshot
Ok, I kek'd.
My point was that the older I get and as I re-read Watchmen, the more I come around to the idea that the book isn't deconstruction in that it attempts to reveal the serious themes being expressed in an idealized subject matter. It's deconstruction in that it reveals how absurd the very concept is.
Every one of the characters is taken seriously and every one of the characters is a fucking joke.
The setup is indeed, as you said, the Comedian.

>>89124638
For fuck's sake, even an edgy cunt like Rodion Raskolnikov is more interesting than Ozymandias could ever be.
"Muh Ramses" shit doesn't make Ozymandias any more interesting than your generic capeshit villain.

>>89123848
No. The one you'll most in real life is shit tier.

>>89123883
This is better but I think mid tier and even shit tier villains can be very memorable and great.

>>89123848
Eobard and Manta do not fit in any of these categories.

>>89124138
That's not dooku
Also dooku didn't wasn't to betray the jedi, he just grew sick of seeing beaucracy and corruption get in the way of the jedi serving the people, like after he witnessed Mando civvies get gunned down by death watch terries with no assistance from the jedi order

>>89124702
ok i'll be honest, I have very little literature experience outside of greek epics and 1900s american/british stuff, so I don't know who rodion is outside of being the protagonist of crime and punishment

that being said, adrian's complexity comes from the fact that despite being a capeshit villain, with a retarded plot and an evil lair, he feels like a real person, with a concrete aim and view on life.

whereas everyone else in watchmen acts like a parody, adrian is a character that essentially reacts like a comic book character would if they were placed in the real world. maybe "complex" was the wrong word - but he is at the very least well written for what he's meant to be

>>89124673
It means 'the villain's motives and goals are by all means considered good, even by the protagonists, hence there isn't a true villain in a sense' you autistic shiteater.

>>89123949
He is the smartest person on earth
A physical beast
Smokes the green sticky
He is the perfect man

>>89123883
According to this, Joker is mid tier right?

>>89124951
>he feels like a real person
I never once got that feeling. If anything, he felt like a standard comic villain. If there was anyone in Watchmen who felt like a human being and was more or less interesting, it's Comedian.

>>89124951
>with a concrete aim and view on life.
Geez, almost like every villain ever made.

>>89125312
I mean like he feels like he could literally walk off the page and function as a real person. Not a lot of villains can do that - most capeshit villains barely have a function outside of being something to get beaten up by the hero or to "take over the world" for no real reason than 'because'.

Even outside of capeshit the majority of villains don't exist outside of their purpose for the plot - although it's possible that Adrian only avoids this because he isn't really shown to be the antagonist until the last twenty pages.

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>>89124138
Dooku was literally the only character in the side of good in prequels

>>89123848
>>89123883
Ozymandias was a garbage villain who only barely won because the "heroes" were even worse.

>>89125443
You grossly overestimate real people, if you think it's true.

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>Arkham City Mr Freeze
>"almost 10 years ago"
That's a bit of a stretch

>>89125536
I don't mean that people in real life catch bullets and are super duper geniuses, I mean that unlike the other characters in Watchmen, Adrian feels like a real person given godlike powers rather than taking godlike powers and then attaching a person to it like Nite Owl and Rorschach do (Comedian and Manhattan are also "realistic", but we're talking about villains here).

Adrian is ultimately just a narcissistic asshole that got his feelings hurt who also happens to be a genius, and that's why he works so well as a character that's truly detestable.

also if you're the same anon from earlier, what are your favourite prose books? I need reading material for a trip later on

>>89123875
/Thread

>>89123848
>implying AKU SHAPESHIFTING MASTER OF DARKNESS is not top tier
>>89123883
better but falls into the above

>>89125711
I mean that real "villains" are not even slightly complex.
Most criminals are hollow, absolutely uninteresting people, (just go look at their interviews) so "they feel like real people" makes zero sense to me when used as an argument for a fictional character's quality. Same as it doesn't make sense to say that comic villains don't feel like real people when real criminals has time and time again proven themselves to be shallow assholes with no real personality.

Oh, and anything by Bulgakov works, I guess.

>>89124997
Kinda between mid and good, he has things that could be considered personal conflicts.

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>>89125611
Arkham city came out 7 years ago anon,that's nearly a decade

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>>89125761
>Johan is not at least high tier
Most villains obviously exist to be hated by the audience, this guy just sends the chills down my spine. He's one of the few villains I'd call truly scary.

>>89125802
Eh, I was thinking more about him being like real life weirdos like Zuckerberg and J Edgar than career criminals, but yeah your point stands.

Thanks for the recs too

I have a question for /co/.
Why can't women be good villains?
They are always terrible.

>>89125828
>personal conflicts
He just fell into a soup that made him go bonkers. There is nothing complex about him.

>>89125859
How come?

>>89126674
Mostly scenes like these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiOFgbjlO9I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W0htS9gCts

Maybe it's a personal thing, but it's pretty scary to have someone to get into your head and use it against you with zero remorse. It doesn't help that Johan himself feels pretty Uncanny Valley-ish both in looks and mannerisms including voice.

That's also why I find Hannibal Lecter scary.

>>89126210
Most villains are forgettable, mediocre or bad. Most villains are men, add to this that writers often write female characters as female characters first rather than writing a good character and making that character a woman and you have the answer. Statistics combined with the fact that writers either push some agenda or otherwise treat those characters differently.

>>89124407
>Judge holden
My nigga

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>>89126210
But that's wrong anon.

>>89127120
She's boring, though.

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>>89126210
That's not true, they just can't be young attractive women because the writer will inevitably just make them fap bait.

>>89127449
KoTOR 2 is shit.
Star Wars in general is shit.

>>89127501
That's a very broad accusation. I personally quite enjoyed kotor 2 because of the lens it put on the childishly reductive philosophy of lucas' star wars and the first kotor.

>>89124138
That's the fuccboi administrator from HL2.

>>89124329
/thread

>>89123988
Breen saw humanity being systematically eradicated in mere hours and had to act quickly to ensure humanity survived.

>>89123917
Why?

>>89123883
For some reason I just wouldn't call characters that were created to drive hero to the absolute physical limits as "shit" tier. More like low tier, sure, but if done right can be really engaging.

>>89123883
This one assumes that Darkseid is Superman's villain, so I know the maker doesn't know shit about Darkseid.

>>89127959
Yeah raiting ozzy and Lex above Darksied is shit.

>>89124951
>>89125021
Lauri was the most human and normal of the cast, its why she was paired off with Manhattan for a lot of the book.

>>89125711
>Adrian feels like a real person given godlike powers

Hell no. The whole point of Watchmen was that in real life comic book solutions are only thought of by the mentally unwell to cover their insecurities.

Adrian was arguably even more fucked up then Rorschach, and its rather disturbing that a lot of people don't pick up on that.

We're talking about a guy whos solution to the Cold War isn't detante but "lets drop a psychic squid on Manhattan and pretend its an alien invasion so the world will unite in fear of a fictional enemy."

You know why Laurie and Dan read sort of like they're forcing themselves to be happy and the last thing Laurie says is that she's thinking about buying a gun? It's because they're the only people alive that know the secret, and they know Veidt fucking killed anyone else that was in on it from the artist who made the squid to his own fuckboi servants.

It's supposed to be obvious that his "fix" to the cold war is no more a good idea than any of the ideas the superheroes had to fix crime or fix America. It's stupid, its laughable it's a joke.

You're supposed to laugh at Adrian.

>>89124673
No villain doesn't mean no conflict. Bojack Horseman doesn't have a villain and it's extremely grim.

>>89128297
>Giant psychic squid is the best thing that the smartest man on the planet came up with

>>89128598
>The physically strongest person on the planet is a depressed blue guy with time autism.

>The smartest person on the planet is an egomaniac psychopath who beats people to death when they outperform him

Watchmen at its core is a simple "power corrupts" story.

>>89128598
If he's so smart, why didn't he make a global scale machine that brainwashes people to be his slaves?

>>89124154
Breen was garbage. He had no presence, no sense of impact with the plot. All he was was a loathsome coward- but if he weren't there, nothing would have gone down differently.

>>89128730
>>89128598
He's smart, but he's also insane.

He sells action figures of himself and lives in a pyramid in the Arctic. He's "what if Doctor Doom was real and lived during the Cold War".

>>89124702
Come on now, Jesus. This is a comics board, you pretentious fuck. Comparing shit here to 500+ page Russian classics is jerking off into your own mouth.
Put up a complex comic character or fuck off to /lit/.

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>>89128598
I want to see you creating a giant psychic squid.

Where does The Hangman fall?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRDq7aneXnk

>>89123883
This is a much better image, but I don't think that Elder God tier is inherently better than High Tier. And that some villains that would fall into Mid Tier are actually pretty great.

>>89128880
I love WOY but Dominator really is a shit villain. Decent character, nice ass, but a shit villain.

>>89128598
It's been a while, but didn't his kidnapped think tank come up with it?

>>89124818
What's Black Manta motivation anyway? Other than to kill Aquaman

>>89124818
Black Manta wants to destroy aquaman because Arthur killed his father that fits with the high tier description

>>89123848
I think villain motives can't be ranked on type alone, it all depends on the individual execution of the villain as a whole.

>>89129463
Autism

>>89123848
>Freeze
>reluctant
wot

>>89124138
Fuck, I also thought that's Dooku.

>>89128297
code geass did this ending better

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>>89123848
It never held true you dumb faggot.

Great villainy is about execution, not motivation.

Only teenage tryhard CRAAAAAAAWLING IN MY SKIN emo faggots would insist on being able to relate to villains at the exclusion of all else.

But guess what, villains can be great even if they don't mirror the pain in the tortured souls of angst-ridden faggot teenagers.

>>89129090
As well as a writer and an artist.

>>89129002
I'm not saying I'm the smartest guy on the planet though.

>>89131808
>Only teenage tryhard CRAAAAAAAWLING IN MY SKIN emo faggots would insist on being able to relate to villains at the exclusion of all else.
This is the exact opposite conclusion you should be drawing.

>>89127959

When he is shown as lusting over the 'mud ball' or 'insignificant speck' or however he refers to Earth at any one of the New Gods run, he's mostly counterpointing Superman. He's likely Highfather's 'villain' but I doubt you can really look at them as the standard hero/villain dynamic, it's far more complex at it's root.

>>89132032
Why?

>>89123848
>breen
Boring bum.

>>89132032
That's the opposite conclusion you should be drawing.