Despite the quality of the films, where does this idea that this

>>88973460
I don't really like the Snyder Superman myself but we're talking about a community that looks at Donner Superman giving up his powers for pussy and cheers. Their mostly Superman casuals and don't know anything about the character.

>>88973460
Look man, just check the archive and I grantee theres a thread that will have covered this and more. There is literally nothing more to talk about this movie, and yet this thread will get 300-400 posts mostly consisting of samefagging autists with bullshit arguments.

>>88973460
>>Tries to reason with Batman despite his mother being in mortal peril

No he didn't
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsGpdzHTXtg&index=54&list=PL3t6ToE_EmAsebWTSNDyuE8212Rdkxvll

>>88973545
You know, that always bugged me. Why DID Superman have to give up his powers to be with Lois? He couldn't be Superman and have a wife?

I also don't know why no one cared when he killed a powerless Zod in that film, but that's a whole nother can of worms.

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>>88973645
>>88973545
>Blaming Donner for the stupid shit in superman 2
I hate Italians so much.

>>88973645
He pushed him off a ledge. That doesn't equal death.

I know it doesn't "count" but a deleted scene actually shows the cops taking Zod away.

>>88976079

>He pushed him off a ledge. That doesn't equal death.

When it's the last time you see him in the film it kinda does

>>88973460
Charisma and the lack thereof matter.

>>88973645
>>88973460

It's all about attitude. When Reeve was Superman he was always clear and confident in everything that he did. A big problem with Cavil is that the script didn't show much of a difference between Clark and Superman.
If they wanted a more serious Clark they should have had a brighter Superman

He comes off as cowardly and reluctant because of how safe he plays things. Fortune, and audiences, favor the bold.

>>88976514
>>88976443

He had a decent Superman in MoS when he was in costume and actually dealing with people. I thought things were about to turn around in that film when he got in the suit after the flight and this scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CFrwHXYotI

>>88976514
How does he, in anyway, come off as cowardly?

>>88976412
>>88976443
>>88976514
>we aren't saying he isn't heroic, just that he doesn't smile enough

neck yourselves, you dont know shit about Superman

>>88973460
The problem is not what he does, it's what the movies show us.

Imagine there's a movie about Rocky but they only show us matches where he's losing and how upset he is after them. And never shows us parts where he dusts himself off to get back to training and his subsequent victories.

Superman's not heroic because they only show us and emphasize his worst moments.

>>88978029
That stuff you've parsed as "concerned about consequence" is viewed by others as cowardly. Responsibility is for tax accountants, not cool guys.

>>88973460
The problem is that heroics are constantly painted as a bad thing by the films.

>>88973460
>Constantly saved people since childhood

More accurately this is adulthood. He did it once, in childhood and was told by Jonathan Kent told him to keep "this side of yourself a secret," even to point of "maybe" letting people die because "there's more at stake here than our lives or the lives of those around us."

>Stands up for women being harassed
I'm not sure that's really clear as a through-point in both films.

>Uses his position as a journalist
He was only shown being a journalist in BvS, where he indicated he didn't know who one of the wealthiest industrialist in the twin-city metro area that is Gotham/Metropolis (since in this 'verse, they are adjacent to one another) and he didn't even turn in his assigned sports stories on time, or at all.

>>88976514
>cowardly and reluctant

These do not equate as the same thing. In addition, it's clear Bruce has been in retirement, mostly, and that this is a universe, to the extent that supers/wonders/metas exist, they are in hiding, keep themselves and their abilities pretty secret and even when they act openly, there's a great deal of antagonism from the public. That's how it's framed, in particular, in the second film, so you cannot expect them (all of them, Clark, Bruce, Diana - and it's clear from what we've seen of Barry and Arthur, that this is true of them, and of the metas in Suicide Squad, they are also non-existent as far as taking majorly open, public roles, whether acting as agents for good or evil, it's the status quo in this universe to be hidden, e.g. reluctant.

Calling it cowardly is just your own impression.

>>88973587
Hahaha! You think you can stop this? Snyder threads FOREVER

>>88973460
I think it comes from how somber he looks during his heroics, how violent and destructive the movie in general is yet how almost oblivious or flippant Superman is about it (MoS made a huge mistake not having any real scenes where Supes helps civilians or stops collateral damage, even the Avengers had that and Superman II made a huge point that Superman's compassion and need to protect was a weakness to exploit in combat), and there's that scene where Supes talks about his dad and says something along the lines of "I was trying to appease a ghost" as if the only reason he's being a hero in the first place is for the sake of his dad. Or the scene where he's descending in absolutely no fucking hurry to rescue the family on the food during the flood (especially since the imagery there has him descend so slowly in an attempt to make him look Christ-like). It just in general creates the impression that, while heroic In terms of the deeds he does, Superman himself is flaky. Like it's an obligation not altruism.

>>88978262
im not op

>>88982080
Pa Kent wanted to let Clark reveal himself on his own terms (so he could, for example, forge a secret identity if need be) and he ended up being right, look how the world reacted after Superman did reveal himself.

>>88982080
>I'm not sure that's really clear as a through-point in both films.

So? He still did it once, no one is claiming its a through line.

>>88982220
>MoS made a huge mistake not having any real scenes where Supes helps civilians or stops collateral damage

what the fuck are you talking about, he saves a bus full of kids, he helps the woman who is being harassed, and he saves the oil rig thats on fire. Jesus christ, did you even watch the movie?

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I don't get why people don't like the film in general.
As a lifelong DC reader, I thought it was very much in the spirit of the best of DC- and interesting new spin on a rich universe.

Note that I mean Snyder's films. SS wasn't that interesting. People flew off the hyperbole chain with SS too though. It was nowhere near the worst super hero film ever.

>>88982220
>Or the scene where he's descending in absolutely no fucking hurry to rescue the family on the food during the flood


Its not that he isnt in a hurry, its that they have his symbol painted on his house as if he is some kind of god, and he isn't sure if he should save them first, because it might send the impression that praising him yields favor with them. Its even during a montage where its shown he is uncomfortable being shown as a god (with everyone touching him) but its an inevitable comparison (like how he is holding the boat chain over his shoulder like a cross). You know Superman has been compared to christ/angels since forever in the comics, and is very intentionally a play on Moses.
Also the "I was trying to appease a ghost" line is actually Superman saying he is just "a dream from a farmer from Kansas" which refers to BOTH his dad's dream for him (to be a hero and do good on his own terms) AND himself because he too is a farmer from Kansas.
You cant even remember the lines correctly you fucking double nigger.

>>88982416
Anti Snyder drones are on autopilot these days.
Same few (objectively incorrect) talking points every time.

>>88982470
I agree with you 100% man

>>88982416
>>88982220
he also saves Lois when they first meet.

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>>88982479
>expecting basic grasp of narrative from Snyder bashers

>>88973631
He did actually. He showed up to talk to Batman but Batman was all "EVENIFTHERE'SA1%CHANCEWEHAVETOKILLHIMHWHWHXDYAYGDGYF!!11!!" So he started attacking Superman and he kept just walking through all of Batmans bullshit precious prep time trying to reason with him, up until the point he got in his face and Supes had had just about enough and was running out of time.

>>88973460
Thinning hairline by the looks of your pic, mostly.

>>88982522
The real joke here is... if Batman could kill Superman he could probably kill Doomsday, too. Superman is a legitimate threat in a lot of way. If you don't believe me just go read a few alternate stories where he goes badguy.

>>88973631
but he did try to reason with Batman

>>88982548
but it was shown that Batman couldnt kill Doomsday, in fact Batman was pretty useless against Doomsday. The difference is one is a beast of raw power while the other still thinks/acts like a man, so he can fall for the mental trickery of Batman.

>>88982549

Only when it got personal for him and he realized he was, despite his powers, pretty shitty when it comes to getting shit done (which is the heart of the reason most people don't see him heroic in this movie; for the most part he wasn't). Otherwise he literally got in the way of him stopping criminals.

>>88982558
It showed him dealing with Doomsday for, like, 5 minutes. And his prep against Superman contributed. This is willful blindness on your part.

>>88982563
what do you fucking mean, he got a lot done, he saved a bunch of people in the movie, and when he stopped the Batmobile the first time, from Superman's perspective Batman was hunting down perfectly legal Lexcorp guards. And he COULDNT go save Martha or else the guys guarding her had orders to kill her.


Goddamn, do you even WATCH the movie?

You know that whole thing about how bedside manner is a great predictor of the likelihood of malpractice lawsuits (I don't have a source for that, but friends who are doctors or in med school have always told me that). It's the same thing here. This Superman wasn't perceived as bright enough, and the logical critique was built around that. At the end of the day, it's about the impression. It's not logical but there you go, that's how most people think.

>>88982572
What are you talking about, he couldnt get anywhere near Doomsday and had his ship ruined by him. Batman would not be a match against Doomsday without tons and tons of preptime.

>>88982580
>Yeah, he saved all those villagers, whom he could have easily noticed were being genocided being in the area, when he went to save Loi--OH WAIT.

>Yeah, he sure pulled a lot of people out of that government building when that motorized wheelchair explo--OH WAIT.

>Yeah, he sure did a bang up job during his fight with Zo--OH WAIT. *snap*

>Yeah, he sure intimidated Batman into stopping and kicked his ass when he wouldn't list--OH WAIT! *bleeds*

Nah dude. Nah.

>>88982588

>Didn't watch the movie.
>It was Batman's grenades that distracted Doomsday.
>It was Batman's spear that ultimately killed him.

>>88982616
This.

Superman couldn't even explain his mom was taken hostage to another hero without getting his face kicked in.

>>88982580
>perfectly legal Lexcorp guards
Are you listening to yourself? Go to bed, Lex.

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>>88982616
>>It was Batman's spear that ultimately killed him.
Yeah, because Batman had the spear, right?

>>88982616
>>88982633

But the villagers were killed AFTER he left and it was made explicitly clear in BvS and MoS that he tunes out the majority of sounds but has a few that are like "alert" sounds, such as Lois screaming.
Also the wheelchair was lined with led you fucking idiots, did you even watch the movie? He had no way of knowing it was going to explode.
And Zod flat out said to kill him or he was going to kill every last human in existence, and there was no way to open the phantom zone again. Literally death by cop.
And Batman was the villain for most of the movie, he would never have stopped regardless of what Superman said.
Lastly, it took Wonder Woman holding Doomsday in place for Superman to even get close to Doomsday. For most of the fight it was Batman running.

>>88982649
Well they fucking were

>>88982616
>>88982633
>being this retarded

>>88982659
In the whole movie humans do the most exceptional things, good and bad. Superman was just there soaking up credit for things he didn't even do.

Hell, he couldn't even finish off Doomsday in a proper way without getting his shit kicked in AGAIN.

>>88982668
>Superman kills Zod because it's clear he won't reform.
>Batman marks some criminals (doesn't even kill them just lets others of their kind do it) because they won't reform.
>Superman: NO YOU CAN'T DO THAT.
Hypocrite much?

>>88982674
>Carry rocket launchers smuggling in illegal substances.
>Legal.

>>88982683
Superfags, everyone. This is the height of their argument.

>>88982693
Don't bother. Snyder's dick is addictive to Superfags.

>>88982693
What do you mean, Lex had pressured the Senator into letting him import the kryptonite, and guards are allowed to use whatever the fuck they want in the DC universe, shit some people even have super powered guards.
Also it wasnt that Superman didnt believe Zod couldnt reform, it was that Zod flat out said he wouldnt and that his genetic programming prevented him from doing so.
And Superman just didnt want him being judge, jury, executioner, probably BECAUSE of how much his own time doing it with Zod weights on him. A big part of the movie is Batman and Superman projecting their flaws onto each other.

cause he doesn't smile

What's sad is there is plenty of legitimate criticism for the movie. But people will ignore it because they're that desperate for a DC movie to go with the Marvel movies.

And in a few years people will look back and think, "How the fuck did we think this was a good movie?"

Because it's not.

>>88982731
>Lex had pressured the Senator
>Didn't even watch the movie.
She said no. Then he killed her. He didn't get permission.

>>88982762
the other one, remember the whole jolly rancher scene?

>>88982731
>And Superman just didnt want him being judge, jury, executioner...
Batman never did this. He just branded them. Except those guys holding Martha hostage, he killed the fuck out of them with Superman's blessing. Huh.

Still a hypocrite.

>>88982775
He still had to get her permission. He never did. The jolly rancher scene was an illegal deal. How is this not obvious?

>>88982776
>Except those guys holding Martha hostage, he killed the fuck out of them with Superman's blessing. Huh.
Snyderfags BTFO.

Man of Murder.

>>88982732
Because everyone around him either criticizes him, put's him at a too high pedestal, or plain hates him. The only one who likes Clark are his mom and girlfriend

I blame Snyder for this

>>88982812

This.

WTF Snyder.

>>88982693
Luthor was paying off criminals in prison to murder anyone with Batman's brand on them. Then he sent news clips to Clark about the branded people being murdered.

Luthor manipulated everyone, making Batman believe Superman was being reckless and dangerous with his powers, and making Superman believe Batman was a unrepentant killer vigilante. That was his plan, to pit them against each other by making each of them look evil and dangerous to the other.

>>88982807
>>88982776
he didnt kill a single person in the warehouse except KGBeast, the guy who jumped on the grenade chose to throw it and chose to jump on it. He could have ran if he wanted.

>>88982793
Its not illegal at all, he is literally pressuring another government official who asks him what he wants. Jesus christ you are an idiot. And REGARDLESS Superman had no idea what Lex was shipping and has no reason to know exactly what minerals are or arent legal to import before stopping a crazed masked vigilante, so from his point of view they were just innocent guards being attacked.

>>88982832
What's your point? Luthor is still another criminal.

>>88982852
Well, there was the car he exploded with his mini-gun armed Batplane. And the guys he exploded with the grenade by kicking one into the other. And probably the dude he hit with a crate and smashed his skull bloody on the wall.

It's likely the others survived. Probably. But people definitely died.

>>88982812
>>88982820
but thats literally reflecting the fan reaction to both MoS and BvS.

>>88982872
>X-Ray vision.
>Can sense Kryptonite when near it.
>Had no idea.
>Didn't even think to fucking ask.

And you wonder why we think Superman wasn't very heroic. He couldn't see passed his own nose. His own stunted sense of morality blinded him.

>>88982874
id say the only one is batplane kill, the grenade was the fault of the guy who threw it, and the crate guy could survive.

>>88982876
Superman in the comics and cartoons work because despite a number of people who don't like him, there's enough appreciation to inspire him to keep on smiling. Being bombarded with constant hate would make anyone sour

>>88982892
>Can sense Kryptonite when near it.

Since when? Its obvious his first exposure to it is when Batman shows it to him. Also its shown that Lex already knows about the led lining blocking x-ray vision so he might have used that, and lastly what REASON dos Superman have to look at what they are transporting or know its illegal?

>>88982902
The problem is Snyder tried to fit in too many storylines at the same fucking time and overloaded the plot. Doomsday, a touch of Kingdom Come, Silver Age, etc... Should had just focused on one part, maybe Batman and Superman working together, and left the other shit out for future movies.

Instead we get this hamfisted collage of bullshit where they're trying to ram a Justice League down our throats before they're even established.

>>88982906
>what REASON dos Superman have to look at what they are transporting or know its illegal?
Uh... it's fucking Batman chasing them? Or his job is to be a reporter and ask fucking questions?

It's just shitty writing and it makes Superman unheroic, and worse stupid. Stop defending it.

>>88982776
>>88982807
But Superman has worked with murders before, he is even currently working with the suicide squad, a whole gang of murderers. And I think most of Superman's projections onto Batman/preconceived notions of him dissolved after his talk with ghost dad and Clark deciding to believe that men can be good again (hence him trying to just talk to Bruce before fighting him).

>>88982942
Its not his job as Superman to question victims of a reckless vigilante. And at this point Superman's opinion of Batman is that he is a crazed madman who used to do good.

>>88982946
Which is hilarious in the way he tries to stop Batman. The set up and delivery was so poorly thought out.

>>88982942
>couldnt even understand how Superman felt about Batman
>someone thinks "because he is Batman" is a solid reason
>criticizes the movie and not his own intelligence

>>88982953
>>88982963
>Going this far to literally defend shitty writing.
/co/... meet the Snyder Internet Defense Force.

>>88982955
Why is it hilarious and what did that have to do with what I posted? You are just moving goal posts, but regardless Batman was obviously still crazed during that fight and so Superman was pleading with him to save Martha, a human woman, he was going to say Martha Kent but he had a boot on his throat. If he said "save my mom" then Batman would just think its some alien shit.

>>88982970
>I didn't understand it so its shitty writing

wew lad,I'm sorry you are autistic and cant understand characters and how they feel about each other.

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Is this from BvS or LotR? Because I can't tell.

>>88982993
>has fantasy armor
>cant tell
get help

>>88982973
>Point out Superman was being a hypocrite trying to stop Batman from branding criminals.
>Superman, who works with murderers, who killed Kryptonians when there were so few left, who APPROVED OF BATMAN KILL TO SAVE HIS MOM...
You can't see the humor? Maybe you're retarded.

>>88982983
Oh, I understand it plenty. It's shitty.

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>>88982993
>>88983003
Wow. Cave trolls could work magic. I didn't know that!

>>88983009
>I dont like that Superman didnt trust Batman so its shitty

kek k

>>88983026
It's more like I don't like how Superman is treated as an idiot that doesn't ask questions like a reporter should. Or doesn't try to reach out to Batman instead just goes, "I'm the biggest dick here! I beat up your car and I'll beat you up too!"

It's probably the worst way to deliver anything on Superman. Ever. Even the giant S that Superman threw in the Reeve movies doesn't come close.

>>88973460
There's nothing wrong with Cavill, or the actors in general - Snyder just cuts his movies in a way to make them feel very long and very slow, draining all excitement from them.

I liked the visuals, I liked the actors and even the script - it's just the cut of the flick is immensely dragged out.

>>88983009
I mean Superman wasnt just angry about the branding, he was becoming increasingly casual about killing, and THIS Superman hadnt worked with murderers before. Also he knows for a fact that there are other kryptonians in the phantom zone so killing zod wasnt dooming his race or anything you idiot. And I dont think he necessarily approved of Batman killing to save his mom, but he wasnt really in a position to stop him, and at THIS point in the movie he now knows that the people Batman would potentially be killing are terrible criminals that are aiding Lex's masterplan. Before it seemed like Batman was attacking innocent guards for no reason, and he didnt try to give one.

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>>88983022
>>88983003
>fantasy armor
>what is wonder woman

Here's another when Arwen the elf maiden warrior kills a Cave troll and don't need no man.

>>88982993
>>88983022
You're fucking blind you nitpicking retard. Cave trolls are like two doomsdays in terms of size and not covered in bonescabs.

>>88983039
yeah Superman just waving his dick at Batman isnt portrayed as the right thing, its portrayed as a mistake. Think of it this way, the only other enemy he has faced was Zod, who made a point to show Superman that might makes right, so its the only way he knows to try and deal with zealots. But it just serves to further radicalize Batman, which bites Clark in the butt later when he tries to just talk to Batman. Then finally Superman tries one more time to reach out and to be completely and utterly honest with Batman and it works. Its both of their character arcs colliding.


So Snyder agrees with you, it is a stupid thing. To not question things and to just assume the worst about Batman, and Superman learns his lesson.

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>>88983090
>Being this delusional
>Literally thinks these two aren't nearly identical.

>>88976412
>>88976443
>>88976514
So that problem is not that he isn't heroic, but that this Superman isn't Chad enough for /co/.

>>88983090
>implying the size of Doomsday isn't super fucking inconsistent in its own movie
k

>>88983123
they really arent, they even have different faces, look about as similar as two white people or two black people

>>88983135
it isnt

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>>88983143
Yeah, sure it isn't.

>>88983070
Nah, won't fall for that. Arwen didn't look like a rat.

>>88983155
ur just proving my point more, doomsday has spiky bits all over his face. Ill give you they are from the same "race" of bad guys, but they dont look that similar.

>Snyder goes from a BvS movie, to a Superman versus Doomsday, to a League forming movie, to a League versus Darkseid.
Jesus... so fucking overloaded. That's four movies wasted. FOUR! IN ONE SHOT!

>>88983123
Cave troll looks like doomsday got downs syndrome that went wrong...er. also no bone scabs.

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>>88983165
She was definitely mousy.

>>88983175
Its called getting yhe overdone gut neccissary bullshit over with. Sorry that you hate new things but they're on the way. Crybabby.

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>>88983209
She's beautiful, mate, and she looks more like Diana than Gadot does.

>>88983221
>Decades of nuanced stories wasted by a quick brush over.
>But what Snyder did wasn't over done.
>Somehow new stuff???

What? No wonder people hate Snyderfags.

>>88983245
>he wants the forming of the justice league to take decades

jeeze

>>88983276
How about I get a FUCKING DECENT BATMAN VERSUS SUPERMAN MOVIE FIRST THAT DOESN'T DOOMSDAY, WONDER WOMAN, AND THE FLASH (In a dream sequence somehow LUL) FORCED INTO IT?

>>88983294
>The Mexican Flash shows up in Batman's dream.
>Snyderfags will defend this cliched and contrived shit.
Oh Jesus, don't fucking remind me.

>>88973460
I joked before the movie came out that in the trailers it looks like he was just hovering over the flood victims almost as though he's taunting them, or at least hesitant to save them, was I far off?

>>88983312
Nah, that was just his dad.

>>88983294
>he wants an actual Batman versus Superman movie and not the Superman making Batman a better person through pure waifuism that Snyder gave us

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>>88983318
Wasn't that just MoS or did they repeat it?

>>88983307
>i dont like speedforce or Crisis

shame

>>88983294
The flash wasn't a dream sequence retard, Batman's dream was interrupted by Flashpoint literally waking him up. You can't lecture us on shit if you're too stupid to realize that Bruce just brushed it off as a dream.

>>88983318
>>88983312
>>88983325
READ THE THREAD

Its not that he isnt in a hurry, its that they have his symbol painted on his house as if he is some kind of god, and he isn't sure if he should save them first, because it might send the impression that praising him yields favor with them. Its even during a montage where its shown he is uncomfortable being shown as a god (with everyone touching him) but its an inevitable comparison (like how he is holding the boat chain over his shoulder like a cross).

>>88983307
>>88983294

>It was a dream all along.
>OR WAS IT?! DUN DUN DUN!
Give that man an Oscar!

>>88983325
Hell if I know. He shoots the shit with ghostdad stacking rocks or something. I just chalk it up to Snyderism.

>>88983328
>implying they're going to get THAT right
Oh your poor dear.

>>88983330
>The Flash...
>Not established in the movie yet.
>Mexican.
>Showing up to give a vague warning that the audience knows is bullshit and not about Superman anyway.

They could have completely cut it from the movie and, guess what, nothing changes! Hell, it set NOTHING up, either.

>>88983334
>actually admits to not paying attention to/not understanding the movie

your opinion is less than trash

>>88983344
but it does effect the movie, Flash says "she is the key" and Batman thinks its Martha (but its revealed to be Lois because he does the "you are my world" bit from the alternate dream). Batman thinks that by saving Martha he can prevent the future he saw.

>>88983346
>Superman literally imagines his dad perfectly... stacking rocks.
There's a lot of things here Superman could have, and SHOULD have, imagined his dad doing. This isn't one of them.

>inb4 some deep metaphor that only Snyderfags get

>>88983332
>he is uncomfortable being shown as a god
Gee, if only he could explain his circumstances to everyone. Maybe do an exclusive interview. Ah wait, Superman doesn't know anyone in newspapers. If only he had a humanizing element to the public, like talking to them. Or hey, he could appeal to their familiarity. What if Superman had a best pal, just like you or me? No...No, that'd never work.

>>88983360
alternate reality*

>>88983344
Hispanics are white.

>>88983360
Imagine the scene without the Flash visit.
Guess what? EXACTLY the same.
Even defending it being shoehorned in... Actually I'm flabbergasted you're going to such lengths. I have no words for this type of fanaticism.

>>88983332
Maybe he should say something, how many lines did he have?(minus as Clark Kent)

>>88982351
>Pa Kent wanted to let Clark reveal himself on his own terms
Which never happened because Clark waited too damn long. So Zod did it instead.

>>88982393
>no one is claiming

OP is claiming he's heroic. Doing something one isn't heroism. Saving a women from a mugger is nice, but it's not the same thing as a being a police man each and every day. Likewise, saving a cat from a tree or helping out once in a building fire, isn't the same thing as being a fireman.

If you're OP or you want to agree with him that it's heroic, it needs to be something the character does at least a few times, not just once.

>>88982416
He also pulled a dick move by using his unique talents/gifts to screw with the truck driver's livelihood. That's not particularly heroic by any measure.

>>88983361
so you admit to not actually paying attention to what they were talking about then?


Also the bricks were relevant to the story Clark was remembering about the flood.

>>88983376
>>88983363
what do you mean, he literally goes to the Senate building to try and talk to people because of how uncomfortable he was with all the praise and bad attention. He figures he'll just tell the whole world at once, but then Lex robs him of his chance of talking to the world.

>>88983384
>a flood of bricks!
>so deep metaphor
It was an attempt to be artsy and vague to cover up the fact he had no clue how to handle the scene or resolve Superman's conflict on the matter.

>>88983392
Except for the fact he told Lois, paraphrasing, "I don't give a shit what they think."

>>88983375
I mean that could be true for a lot of scenes in a lot of movies, but there is nothing wrong with universe building, and dont move goal posts, you said it had no effect on the story when it actually does. Re-enforcing motivations is not a waste and neither is universe building. Its about as unnecessary as revealing Deckard is a replicant in Blade Runner, it might not be strictly important to the events of the story but it doesnt hinder it in anyway and makes it richer.

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>>88983393
>Oh you have a point but I think it was a dumb part so it's not relevant no matter how relevant it was
Okay
Also im kinda impressed one anon is so triggered hes managing to keep up with three of the same arguments in the same thread.

>>88983377
well thats not entirely true, he sat down and had that interview with Lois at the military base and was able to find a symbol for himself.

>>88983400
>"The next time they shine your light in the sky, don't go to it. You work for me now, bitch. The bat is dead. Long live the Bitch. Consider this a new job offer. Now start stripping.
How did he get away with this?

>>88983411
>but there is nothing wrong with universe building
Except in this movie it WAS because it robbed the movie of its momentum and gravity.

>OH Hey, before we get, we got this other superhero to show up for a few seconds. Don't forget him!
>*Audience forgets.*

>Don't move goal posts!
How ironic.

It doesn't. At all. Seriously. Watch the movie again. When it gets to the part where the flash shows up, just fast forward. There isn't a single part that needs to change to account for the loss. It's so incongruous you might as well just go from BvS to an Archie comic for a few seconds and back again.

>>88983427
He didn't. Batman pimp slapped him.

>>88983381
The through line is his general heroism, of which one event is him saving the woman. Dont be so pedantic. And he didnt screw with the trucker driver's lively hood, since all cars in the us have to have insurance by law, and all commercial trucks most assuredly have tons of insurance.


But even outside of that, its a reference to one of the Reeves movies you pleb.

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>>88983392
He can't just find another person to talk to on TV? I thought his alter ego was a fucking journalist how fucking hard is it for him to get in front of a camera without his glasses?
Course that also brings up the question, how the fuck does no one know it's him if he and himself were the only two fucks killed in the Doomsday disaster thing.
One of his fucking coworkers could throw this together and scream, oh my Superman, Clark is Superman!
And how the hell are they going to explain Clark coming back to fucking life? Is there even a plan going forward or is it all stumble and bumble into the next movie's script?

>>88983419
>He thinks there's on anon.
Oh you poor soul.

>>88983427
That scene was pretty hackneyed and I like the movie. I don't think superman wpuld speak like he had a massive inferiority complex. Because he doesn't.

>>88983400
Superman has always cared about Lois' opinion more than the public's. Plus BvS Supes is going to be a hero regardless, but he still understands the importance of trying to clear his name in the public eye. He obviously starts to care about it after Lois tells him he should.

>>88983449
Well, you see...
Snyder will fix it with a dream sequence... Something something stacking bricks or something. Maybe it was a dream and maybe it wasn't. Notice this paper fell on the floor!

>>88983450
For a little while the triggerfags hit a singularity

>>88983457
>Plus BvS Supes is going to be a hero regardless...
Because we expect him to be from decades of established character building. Not because of Snyder's direction or writing.

>>88983462
Or maybe the criticisms are actually consistent?

>>88983437
>Except in this movie it WAS because it robbed the movie of its momentum and gravity.

Nah it didnt though, and now you are making up things I said about goal posts? And again, plenty of scenes in movies arent strictly needed. If we only ever just go what was relevant to the plot movies would be a lot shorter. Its universe building/setting up for a guaranteed sequel. Its not any worse than Cap's shield showing up in Iron Man.

>>88983449
After the Senate explosion the narrative was out of his control.

As for the rest of your questions, ask Jurgens because the same thing happened in the comics.

>>88983489
>Its not any worse than Cap's shield showing up in Iron Man.
>the shield was specifically used to necessitate IM's new element
>unnecessary
???

>>88983476
What do you mean, him saying he doesnt care what they think, followed by him saving people, IS the character building...

>Snyder: Ok, let's get ready for the next scene.
>Henry Cavill: Ok, let's do this! What's my motivation?
>Snyder: What do you mean?
>Cavill: Well, you know, direct me. What am I doing?
>Snyder: Well, you're Superman.
>Cavill: Ok, and...?
>Snyder: And you're doing Superman stuff.
>Cavill: Right. What stuff?
>Snyder: Things. Try and look like you have a thousand yard stare when they walk around you.
>Cavill: Who walks around me?
>Snyder: People. With skulls on their faces.
>Cavill: Wait. What? Why are they there?
>Snyder: Because we had you sinking in skulls in the first movie.
>Cavill: Yeah, but why do they have skulls now?
>Snyder: You wouldn't understand.
>Cavill: Oooookaaaay. So... why am I there?
>Snyder: To look into the sky.
>Cavill: Is that it?
>Snyder: It's art man. Don't judge me.
>Cavill: So... just look constipated while people grope me. Sure. I guess.
>Snyder: No, see, just a thousand yard stare.
>Cavill: Whatever. I don't care as long as I'm paid.
>Snyder: Yes! That's the Superman I wanted you to be! Ready. Action!

>>88983515
>Flash was specifically used to necessitate Batman saving Martha
>unnecessary

they could have written around Cap's shield as easily as they could have written around Flash, but they both serve as universe building.

>>88983489
>Nah it didn't though...
You can't be shilling this hard. You don't think an un-introduced character, showing up in a DREAM, with FLASHING LIGHTS, saying something CRYPTIC, for a few seconds then promptly disappearing DOESN'T FUCKING WITH THE PACING OF A MOVIE? How much is Snyder paying you?

>>88983489
Tony wouldn't try to replicate his father's seemingly invulnerable shield? Then leave it lying around while he worked on other things? Not like Cap was a secret after he was lost in the ice.

>>88983535
>to necessitate Batman saving Martha
It's funny you're clinging to this but
>A: The Flash scene comes immediately following an unnecessary dream sequence,
>B: it completely interrupts the flow regardless of alleged plot relativity, BUT most importantly:
>C: THE FLASH HIMSELF SAYS IT'S LOIS. Not "Martha". IT'S LOIS. LOIS LANE. SHE'S THE KEY.

Not MARTHA.

>>88983545
its only a few seconds and its ending a scene, the whole thrust of that scene already had its time and landed, and since everyone knows who the Flash is, everyone in the theater I was in just got hyped. And then its followed by a much quieter scene of Superman looking at pictures of dead prisoners that were branded by Batman. Doesnt kill it at all, if anything its a good punctuation on the dream sequence that came before it and bridges us back into reality.

>>88983489
>Its not any worse than Cap's shield showing up in Iron Man.
Except it it worse. The shield moment served to have a bit of humor. That was all. The Iron Man movie had a lull so they threw it in for a bit of levity.

The Flash showing up saying something in code then never showing up again, something dramatic and you would EXPECT had some impact on the movie... doesn't. Snyder is trying to get away with telling three movies in one and he's failing all of them.

>>88983548
they could have just written the shield out completely, didnt need to be in Stark's possession. Come on, think for a second. I'd argue there is even more precedent for Flash to appear to Batman since its right out of CoIE.

>>88983566
>See the Flash.
>Get hyped!
>Oh, it's literally nothing.
>It's okay... Snyderfags say so.

>>88983576
They could have easily. It was there for a bit of light humor. But it certainly isn't comparable to the Flash showing up giving a warning in a movie that means, well, all of a dick in your mouth.

>>88983558
she is the key, thats why Bruce stops to listen to her when she comes to Superman's side, thus letting him save Martha.

>>88983566
>Doesnt kill it at all, if anything its a good punctuation on the dream sequence that came before it and bridges us back into reality.
Are you being fucking for real? You're just going to gloss over the FUCKING FLASH showed up in a movie he wasn't even MENTIONED IN for a few seconds to give a warning that means nothing before disappearing again? And the entire scene could be cut?

And you think this is comparable to a goddamn joke scene in ANOTHER MOVIE?

>>88983589
I mean its obvious they were going to make a JL movie so its not anymore "nothing" than the cameos leading up the Avengers movies or having Falcon in Ant-Man.

>>88983603
He listened because his own mom was named Martha. No one thinks, "It's a good thing The Flash (tm) warned Batman!"

>>88983612
>It's nothing more than a cameo!
If it was after credits? Fine. In the middle of a goddamn movie that had nothing to do with the Flash? Come the fuck on.

>>88983566
>since everyone knows who the Flash is, everyone in the theater I was in just got hyped
>>88983576
>I'd argue there is even more precedent for Flash to appear to Batman since its right out of CoIE.
Okay, thank you for bringing this up because this bugged the shit out of me.

The Marvel movies establish everything before they take effect. It establishes the characters before they show up in costume, mainly. It gives us some details about their reasoning, motivation, or authenticity.

In BvS, without the existing out-of-movie knowledge that Batman and Supes are making a dc cinematic universe, the Flash is completely out of left field, as is Wonder Woman appearing in the final fight.

There's a woman, and she's in a photo from the 1910s. Okay, weird. Then she's fighting with a fucking magic ass lasso and sword. There is no narrative cohesion in these details being in the movie without out-of-movie knowledge and foresight.

This would be like if you had a movie and halfway through, some character hijacks a scene for something that is completely unrelated and never addressed later. What the fuck was that guy doing there? Oh, he's in a sequel? Well that doesn't make his sequence come LESS out of left field in the movie proper first, dipshits!

>>88983607
but it serves a purpose in the movie as much as the shield, Flash telling Batman Lois is the key is why he listens to her when she shows up at the end. And yeah, seeing Flash adds a good hype cameo that bridges from a hype dream sequence to the rest of the movie, and is followed by a quieter scene to let us absorb what we just saw. Its well placed.

>>88973460
He's not wearing red underwear.
CASE CLOSED.

>>88983619
Sure, but having Lois actually show up adds to it. Its not JUST that his mom's name was Martha, it was also him realizing that Superman was indeed a man.

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>>88983576
The shield didn't interrupt the flow much, it was a gag that rolled straight into it being almost literally a paperweight. Whereas Flash was forced in your face screaming at you, look at me, look at me, look at me, I'm important! Except not really because what exactly did my message do to any aspect of the movie I was shoehorned into? Was Lois ever in danger that Superman couldn't save so Bats had to? Why was she the key? And the key to what? And what was Bats supposed to do differently than whatever future version of himself did that Flash was supposedly warning him to do or not do?

>>88983637
>Its well placed.
You have to be on drugs.

>>88983646
And no one thinks, "Gee, good thing The Flash (tm) warned Batman!" Because his warning meant dick all. It was disposable. Batman already had all the character motivation necessary to listen.

>>88983633
They had Flacon cameo in Ant-Man for more time and less reason. Most of the Avengers in Civil War have no reason to be there either and the fight doesn't in anyway contribute to the fight between Tony and Cap that a smaller fight couldnt do in the same way.

>>88983657
but his warning literally changes the universe flashpoint style, hence Bruce having the dream of the diverted future.

>>88983652
same with Falcon in Ant-Man. And the message had to do with Bruce listening to her when she came to Suprman's rescue and maybe has something to do with something else in the future.

>>88983659
>They had Flacon cameo in Ant-Man for more time and less reason.
So two wrongs make a rig--
>Falcon was actually an establish obstacle to Ant-Man progressing the story, and was later followed up by a set up for his appearance in the next movie. And his appearance was a fight scene that delivered entertainment to the audience and not just a, "What did he mean by this?" meme.
Oh. Shit. Nope. Try again. Not even comparable.

>>88983666
>but his warning literally changes the universe flashpoint style, hence Bruce having the dream of the diverted future.
And how do you know this in the movie? Oh, wait, you don't. Because it's not foreshadowed. Or followed up on. Hell, you're not even sure if it's THIS and not Snyder about to pull a, "stacking bricks," metaphor on you.

>>88983679
>"What did he mean by this?" meme.
Pretty much sums up The Flash showing up in BvS in a nutshell.

>>88983679
he served no addition to Ant-Man outside of a glorified cameo. They could just as easily have written him out and had the mcguffin be somewhere else. Jeesus you are dumb. You are so assblasted over a single 30 second cameo, get over it.

>>88983679
>was later followed up in following movies
>Flash also showed up in Skwad
>implying they wont follow up in League

come on m8 this is pathetic

>>88983698
>Snyder is a /pol/tard.
I should have fucking known.

>>88983619
Why does everyone seem to think barry was talking about their mothers and not Wonder Woman bring the key to uniting the justice league?

>>88983717
Because Snyder is a shitty writer and left no foreshadowing or follow up to it. He's hiding behind being so vague to hide the fact he doesn't know what he's doing.

>>88983717
>not Wonder Woman bring the key to uniting the justice league?
IT'S LOIS
SHE'S THE KEY

>>88983704
>No see, it's useless! You're assblasted because I brought up an unrelated movie with better scenes!
Wow. You're actually trying to deflect a problem with a DC movie by presenting a Marvel one. You're pathetic.

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>>88983678
Are you moving goalposts now?
But sure, an Avengers facility wouldn't just be unguarded with Hydra and shit wandering around, they needed someone able to see Ants but not completely wreck him instantly. Falcon was basically a non fodder security guard at one of the several places they were breaking in to because, surprise he's a thief in sort of a heist movie.
Whereas flash appeared in Bruce's cave because...? Because,,,?
And you're probably going to move the goalpost again.

>>88983723
>>88983729
>says it Lois
>ITS SO VAGUE GUYS


kek

>>88983744
>i dont have an argument so imma resort to name calling

>>88983729
He said lois? I heard "Bruce! She is the key!" Because the Retcon Force was making too much noise

>>88983747
Flash appeared because he obviously went back in time to change things, and it worked. I mean really why DID Falcon show up other than to advertise Civil War? They literally could have written Ant-Man getting the whatever mcguffin he got in anyway they wanted, but those chose Falcon because guess what movie was next? Civil War.

>>88983758
I am about 98% certain he said Lois but I might be living in the Berenstein universe.

>>88983749
>Wants to use the bell analogy like in the famous comic.
>Doesn't actually deliver it.

>>88983752
>No, see namecalling!
Or it's exactly what you did. A pathetic attempt to deflect problems with DC movies by desperately grabbing at Marvel ones (that didn't actually have the same problem).

>>88983758
I mean speed force. I forget that Flash fans have no sense of humor.

>>88983770
>why did this character from the previous movies show up in a later one? what the fuck, using existing characters in your unified world
>this character never shown before interrupting the movie is completely acceptable and not distracting at all
Fucking wow. "He obviously went back in time", again, without the knowledge that this is adapting the dc universe, this is utter bullshit from a storytelling perspective.

>>88983704

>A cameo scene in a movie franchise with an established trope of cameos is comparable to a broken pace of a movie that tries to jam too much into too little film.

>>88983784
im using another example to show its not a problem, its just universe building and has just as much relevance to the plot as Falcon did to Ant-Man.
Also, what the fuck are you talking about bell analogy? Are you trying to talk about Luthor?

>>88983770
>I mean really why DID Falcon show up other than to advertise Civil War?

see

>>88983796

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>>88983770
And what exactly did he change by showing up? And you just complained yourself about advertising a future movie so you have to use an in-movie timeline to explain precisely what Flash's purpose was, Falcon was already explained, he's a security guard with a name.

>>88983793
Its not really bullshit when a) everyone knows who the flash is and people already want less origin movies and b) they already had plans to a do a JL movie and follow up on it.

>>88983793
>I'm new at this therefore entitlement
Get use to it or go back to queermo indie rags that weigh more in glass then they do paper. Capeshit is not for the weak of balls.

>>88983802

see

>>88983796

You're simply ignoring good storytelling and trying to compare apples to oranges... and frankly you look stupid for trying.

Also... the fucking bell is symbolism used in the comics after Batman kills Darkseid and travels through time. I'm surprised you're trying to argue against this particular point when your movie is so desperate to shoehorn Darkseid in.

>>88983811
Except apparently a good majority of the audiences had no fucking clue it was the Flash or what he was even doing since they thought it was still also part of a dream sequence, so Flash has time traveling dream powers?

>>88983796
>>88983803
but this is literally just saying "its okay because he showed up before." Like shit, everyone knows who The Flash is, its fine, it really doesnt break the pacing at all and it got everyone in the theater hyped when I saw it. Idk why 30 seconds makes you guys so mad.

>>88983821
Gloss* i was referring to indie comics heavy use of gloss for some reason. Like gloss can hide shit. Glass could be a confusing typo.

>>88983808
by telling Batman Lois was the key he listened to her when she showed up at the end of his fight.

>>88983832
>It's fine because the movies, which worked so hard to not be the comics, suddenly draw character out of the comics for no reason. Who cares if it's bad storytelling? It's fine because... reasons.

I'm pissed because there's plenty of ways this movie could have gone right. And they picked the one way to fuck it up that, ironically, their competition avoided and set the example for.

>>88983831
Where are you getting this information from? Also Flash has always had time traveling powers, and its meant for casuals to think its part of a dream sequence because they already decided to make Justice League and knew they would answer it there. They are setting up a pay off for the sequel, relax.

>>88983841

see

>>88983619

>>88983841
But why would he not listen to her? He was already in Winter Soldier mode when the codeword Martha was used.

>>88983852
>They are setting up a pay off for the sequel, relax.
And they fucked up their movies doing it.

>>88983850
but Marvel literally had Cap's shield in Iron Man to do the same exact thing and Cap is even less well known than Flash and required more of Iron Man's time to explain and set up. Also the movie lays pretty heavily in its comic origins, going so far as to directly address the constant religious parallels the comics have made about Superman, intentionally reversing The Dark Knight Returns in theme/story while faithfully re-creating panels from it, teasing Parademons, Motherboxes, having Orion eclipse imagery, using KGBeast, and doing CoIE Flash warnings.

>>88983864

>Longing, rusted, furnace, daybreak, seventeen, benign, nine, homecoming, one, freight car, Martha--
>WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME?!
Just imagining Bucky doing this is sending me into hysterics.

>>88983859
>>88983864
>a character isnt allowed to have multiple motivations for the same thing

sure Martha got him to stop for a second, but he didnt ease up on Superman until Lois showed up. He is yelling at him and asking why he said that name until Lois shows up and explains.

>>88983886
Batman never yells that like you are implying, rewatch that scene

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oufremzw7d8

>>88983878

You want to know the ultimate difference?

Marvel didn't fuck it up. The shield was low key. The Flash was dramatic and screwed up the pacing of the film. But you'll ignore good cinema to protect Snyder.

>>88983890
And yet, still no one thought, "Gee, it's a good thing The Flash (tm) warned Batman!"

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>>88983852
Most movie reviewers weren't even sure it was the Flash, and they went in expecting cameos, which were arguably worse than this scene, opening a bunch of quicktime videos?

>>88983899
Now who's nitpicking?
>inb4 well at least get it right
Yeah, just like movie directing, amirite?

>>88983878
When the fuck foes KGBeast ever get mentioned or show up? I might have been off my ass drunk for one or two of the superman movies...

>>88983900
but I disagree i really dont think it screwed up the pacing, and even if you think it did its just 30 seconds and its easy to get back on track.


also

>I didnt think of it so no one else did

sad

>>88983913
>w-well you suck for proving me wrong!

>>88983917
you fucking casual, the guy with the flamethrower who killed all the middle easterns was KGBeast dummy. No wonder you didnt like you, are casual af.

>>88983907
>The normie who made that shit facebook meme thinks his normie friends are hardcore DC fans
Hahahahaha what a knob

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>>88973460
>Zod pushes a Luthorcorp tanker truck at Superman
>Superman flies up and over it, letting the tanker blow up, not giving a fuck about any people that might be near AN EXPLODING TANKER TRUCK

>>88983890
It's not multiple motivations, he was stopped dead in his tracks just like that scene stopped the movie dead in its tracks, you could tell him to whip out his penis at that point and he probably would have. Which given Snyder wanted Bats to get raped in prison probably wasn't that far off from his mind when writing that part.

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>>88973460
It's just a bunch of NOT MUH SUPERMAN fags that are nitpicking because hating on DC movies is consider cool since the dark knight series was so highly popular.

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>>88983933
He thought it was a water truck.

>>88983899
>>88983925

>You're letting him kill Martha (no reason he should use his mom's name but I'll roll with it).
>What does that mean? "Why did you say that name?" (The actual phrase in question. Word for word as I posted it.)
>Find him. Save Martha. (Again. WTF why his mom's name and not mom?)
>Then Batman has a flashback with The Flash (tm), making The Flash (tm) redundant.
>WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME?! MARTHA!? WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME?!

Nope, pretty sure I'm completely right here. I'm happy you don't even watch your own sources. ROFL

>>88983934
what do you mean, watch the scene

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oufremzw7d8

he is yelling at Superman and still has his foot on his throat, he doesnt stop till Lois comes. Jesus christ dude, embarrassing, actually watch the movie.

>>88983941
>X-ray vision
>thinks oil looks like water

>>88983929
I did like it though.
That guy was so generic though. KGBeast shoild be a bit more brutal, not just "Dis iz my comrade flamethrower... Ha. Ha. Ha. Im russian badguy so I am clealy KGBeast, no?"
Like decapitate somebody with a beyonette or something, jeeze. What a lame fucking cameo.

>>88983954

Except he did stop. He was just about to give the killing blow because Superman used His Mom's Real Name (tm). He stopped and yelled. Dumbass. Lois was just there for exposition... that the audience already had.

>>88983946
>no reason he should use his mom's name but I'll roll with it

how many times do you idiots need this explained, Bruce made it clear he thinks Superman and his parents are aliens, so he is pleading with Bruce to save a human named Martha Kent which is something he might actually do, where as if he just said "save my mom" Bruce would just think they were aliens and not do shit

>>88983946
he flashed back to his mother, but LIKE I KEEP SAYING, he was still questioning Superman and CHOKING HIM watch the scene

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oufremzw7d8


he doesnt stop until Lois comes goddamn.

>>88983966
>No see, it's not shitty writing!
kek

>>88983940
>hating on DC movies is consider cool

For all the people I know, it isnt considered cool, it is considered logic.

>>88983965
He is still fucking choking him and interrogating him you idiot, he doesnt actually stop and throw away the spear until Lois.

>>88983978
>I didnt understand it the first time so its shit!

its sad how hard idiots struggle to justify themselves.

>>88983976
>He didn't actually stop because I said so.
LOL

>>88983983
Her showing up literally had nothing to do with it. She was just there to lay on him.

Hell, if Superman said, "It's my mother," Batman's motivation is EXACTLY THE SAME.

>>88983981
Logic that they based on from the "popular opinion" of the Internet.

>>88983966
His parents are aliens, those are his adopted parents.
How would Bruce know he was talking about humans anyways, his alien mom's name could be named Martha too, why would Supes say his mom's name instead of save mommy which explicitly tells the other person he's in a vulnerable state outside of their fight.

>>88983993
There's nothing to actually understand. It's shit.
>Snyderphors 2deep4u!
Snyder's meme is now complete.

>>88983802
>He doesn't know about, "Batman: The Return of Bruce Wayne."
Godfuckingdamnit. I knew /co/ didn't read comics but this is unforgivable if you're trying to defend a Batman movie with Darkseid hinted in it. kys

>>88984001
>I don't follow the crowd, that means I'm right

fucking kek

>>88984001
>movies are as successful as they are popular
>the popular opinion is wrong!
Next level shilling.

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>literally every bad thing in MoS and BvS was caused by Clark being angry or stupid
Superman is curse to the planet in Snyderverse. His incompetence was reason of thousands of deaths and bil of damage. Snyder REALLY hates Superman and everything he represents.

>>88984035
He made Superman jesus, and like the religions that created, all he did was make the world worse.

>>88973587
Not enough Civil War or Guardians of the Galaxy threads for you huh faggot?

>>88984133
This man needs another Steven Universe thread.

>>88984162
Did you just assume my gender?

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>>88984233

>>88984233
Were all be de facto on /co/ 12 year old girls role playing as 30 year old men

>>88983940
worst meme to infest co ever

>>88973460
half this shit are just your delusions, edgefag

>>88982080
>and he didn't even turn in his assigned sports stories on time
To be fair, that's because he deliberately didn't in order to go after what he felt was the most important story, which was Batman getting more violent.