https://twitter.com/geoffjohns/stat us/815450084024328192 wh

Justice League vs Watchmen 2018

So what is it gonna be? LoSH? JSA? Shazam?

File: alan-moore-watchmen-wide.jpg (146KB, 435x300px) Image search: [Google]

146KB, 435x300px

>I was noticing that DC seems to have based one of its latest crossovers in Green Lantern based on a couple of eight-page stories that I did 25 or 30 years ago. I would have thought that would seem kind of desperate and humiliating, When I have said in interviews that it doesn’t look like the American comic book industry has had an idea of its own in the past 20 or 30 years, I was just being mean. I didn’t expect the companies concerned to more or less say, “Yeah, he’s right. Let’s see if we can find another one of his stories from 30 years ago to turn into some spectacular saga.” It’s tragic. The comics that I read as a kid that inspired me were full of ideas. They didn’t need some upstart from England to come over there and tell them how to do comics. They’d got plenty of ideas of their own. But these days, I increasingly get a sense of the comics industry going through my trashcan like raccoons in the dead of the night.

>>88821938
>the man who's entire body of work is shitting on classic literature is saying this
wew
e
w

>>88821938
When I read shit like this I really do want to slap him. But he's written some cool comics.

>>88821938
As much as I agree with some of what Alan Moore says about the industry, I completely disagree with what he says here. In my eyes, there is nothing wrong with expanding on something that someone else wrote. In fact, as much as I imagine I'll be shit on for this, I enjoyed Blackest Night. It was a good story that did some have a level of originality to it.

>>88821956
Not really. In fact, if that is what you took away when you read things like League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, I think you missed the point. Alan Moore's work generally examines particular aspects of genre, the tropes, the settings, the types of stories and so on before manipulating them to tell his own story.

>>88822133
>Not really. In fact, if that is what you took away when you read things like League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, I think you missed the point. Alan Moore's work generally examines particular aspects of genre, the tropes, the settings, the types of stories and so on before manipulating them to tell his own story.

That sure is a flowery as fuck way of saying the same thing. He did exactly what he bitches at other people for doing -- adapting media and stories that predate him to suit the purposes of the story he wants to tell.

He thinks anything that is slightly similar to his own work, but done differently, is an affront and a laughingstock. He's just your bargain bin hypocrite. Dude's writing belabored Cthulhu fanfiction right now.

>>88824855
The difference being that Lovecraft actively encouraged people like Robert E Howard and Clark Ashton Smith to continue his stories, and always intended to make a spawling mythos. Watchmen is a singular story with a beginning, middle and end, and it was never intended to be anything else. This and Before Watchmen are just shameless cashgrabs.

>>88825427
>Watchmen is a singular story with a beginning, middle and end, and it was never intended to be anything else
what about lost girls then?

>>88825427
That's very specific to Watchmen. (Which originally he wanted to do with other people's characters anyway, so...)

The stuff in Green Lantern was published in an obvious serial format where future writers referencing and building upon past writers was part of the deal.

>>88821457
>writing comics again

Oh boy, can't wait for other bad stuff that is going to be praised by Johnsfags here as the best comic ever.

>>88821457
Buy more shitty comics masterminded by the guy who is directly responsible for the best universe and characters in comics turning in to a dumpster fire but still has the audacity/ignorance to cast himself as the savior to find out!!!

>>88825427
If Lovecraft saw the amount of sex Moore added, he would have a heart attack.

>>88825427
But, anon, nothing ever ends

>>88826879
That's not Morrison.

>>88822133
>Not really. In fact, if that is what you took away when you read things like League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, I think you missed the point. Alan Moore's work generally examines particular aspects of genre, the tropes, the settings, the types of stories and so on before manipulating them to tell his own story.

And this is different from Geoff Johns' turning some old Green Lantern mythology as the groundwork for his War of Light Saga how?

>>88825427
But the people behind the DC Universe have intended this work that way, for people to continue on what they were doing and obviously anyone signing on to do this would have expected this happening years away. I mean for fuck's sake Alan Moore originally wanted the Charlton characters for it, can't you argue that those characters already had their story told and that what Alan Moore was doing was just an intellectual wanking of himself?

>>88828158
Explain how Morrison fits that description at all aside from you personally not liking him.

>>88825427
How about Marvelman, then?

I fucking wish Twilight of the Superheroes was made so people can finally get over how Moore is pushing for the sacredness of people's work. This is the fucking guy who shipped Superman and Wonder Woman having a demented offspring, Billy being a midget who banged prostitutes, and all the other shit I forgot from the last Twilight of the Superheroes thread.

>>88821938
>Moore includes Geoff Johns among the “parasites” and “raccoons” rooting through his trash. Why? Because Johns seasoned his own epic expansion of the Green Lantern mythos with a couple of minor elements from Moore’s Green Lantern short story “Tygers” (1986) – a story that was itself created to make sense of a plot hole in the 1959 Green Lantern origin by Gardner Fox!
>So, in fact, both Moore and Johns were simply doing their work-for-hire jobs by adding to and expanding upon the many-authored quilt that is DC, and specifically Green Lantern, continuity. In a shared narrative universe, such as those of DC or Marvel, any element introduced into the continuity surely becomes part of the backstory and is therefore available to other writers to build upon or incorporate. Johns’ Green Lantern work and the “Blackest Night” story in particular would have worked as well without any reference to “Tygers”, in fact. Why the sneering, dehumanizing putdown? Who chastises a man for the unspeakable crime of synthesizing prior elements of Green Lantern’s back story into his own fresh and personal creative vision for the character, m’lud?
>Would Moore have appreciated a comparison to vermin snuffling among Gardner Fox’s garbage for treats when he brought Fox’s Floronic Man back from the archives to feature in a “Swamp Thing” (Len Wein’s trash!) story? What obsessive snouting around in the municipal tip does “League of Extraordinary Gentlemen” reduce to if we regard Alan Moore’s endeavours through the same unforgiving lens he applies to Geoff Johns’ work?

MOORE BTFO
http://www.comicsbeat.com/the-strange-case-of-grant-morrison-and-alan-moore-as-told-by-grant-morrison/

>>88828391
What about it? He's made no objection to other people carrying on Marvelman afaik; even suggested Gaiman for the job back when Silver Age was being planned. Same deal with John Constantine and Delano. It's really just Watchmen and V that were intended as self-contained units with no sequel/prequel/spinoff/adaptation.

>>88825427
Except in >>88821938 he's talking about Green Lantern, which he doesn't own. I mean I kinda get what he's saying and agree to a certain point, but it is kind of a stones and glass houses thing.

Now Watchmen, that's a different subject.

>>88821938
Johns is the guy that wrote Hal punching Batman because he was mad someone made Batman punch Guy.

It's not a surprise that after Moore called him out Johns went and made a story to blame Moore of everything bad in comics.

He is just that petty.

>>88828654
>He's made no objection to other people carrying on Marvelman afaik
Fuck no, his editor/correspondent at Warrior pretty much said he despised the thought of someone continuing Marvelman after him. He was very hostile towards Morrison when Morrison said he wanted to continue. He only recommended Gaiman because he pretty much understood that no matter how opposed to the continuation he is, it'll be continued.
As for Constantine, he just sings the same tune he does whenever his OCs are brought up, "That's not my version of the character, it's some corporate IP now and they're cashing in on my name."

>>88828809
>projecting this hard

>>88828809
He also wrote Batman punching Hal later

>>88828935
in a cave and all alone to make Batman look even more petty

File: Stop it.jpg (108KB, 636x538px) Image search: [Google]

108KB, 636x538px

>>88828450
>This is the fucking guy who shipped Superman and Wonder Woman having a demented offspring, Billy being a midget who banged prostitutes

Fucking Moore.

>>88828450
I always wonder what would've happened in the universe where it actually got published. I don't know if all that stuff would've gone through since it was still the planning stage. If it gone through as is I think the readership and comics reviewers would've turned on Moore at that point.

>>88828654
>Grant did submit a Kid Marvelman story, about a discussion between Kid Marvelman and a Catholic priest, and it was quite fascinating because Kid Marvelman argued a very good case against organised religion. Nobody was flying, no beams from anyone’s eyes, but a bloody clever script, clever enough that I sent it to Alan Moore for his opinion. Alan’s reply was, ‘Nobody else writes Marvelman.’ And I said to Grant, ‘I’m sorry, he’s jealously hanging on to this one.’

-Dez Skinn

>>88828809
Pretty sure you're bait but which comic do you mean?

>>88828637
This is why Moore hates Morrison. The baldy doesnt take shit from him.

>>88828974
Well... Batman IS petty.

File: Morrison.jpg (21KB, 447x640px) Image search: [Google]

21KB, 447x640px

>>88828637
based Scottish Magic Man.

>>88829458
fuck off Johns

>>88824855
>adapting media and stories that predate him to suit the purposes of the story he wants to tell

1) that "flowery way of saying" is basically saying Moore intellectualizes what he does. he's putting some damn effort in to what he writes. he isn't there to regurgitate some cape schlock. LoEG can be critically analyzed for its literary merits more so than other comics. different volumes won some awards. the reception of moore's work is not the same as other comics

2) you seem to assume that Moore is a one trick pony. you forget that Moore became a comic writer for coming up with his own stories beforehand. how many other comic writers are known for that and how many of the capeshit comics have authors that are not known for their storytelling before grabbing pre-dated media?

>>88828637
of course Morrison says this
he would be out of a job if he had to make actual original stories instead of hiding behind "muh meta and self references to the past" garbage

>>88829689
>complains about Morrison doing something Moore does
>claims Morrison would be out of a job even though he hasn't done much for DC lately

What did he mean by this?

>>88828637
Based fucking Morrison.

>>88829246
To be fair, remember that Moore was just starting to write professionally and he had, pardon me for saying it, created a bloody masterpiece. I would be exceptionally jealous of a work like it. Remember Gaiman only approached him years after when Miracleman was being published by Eclipse. In that time, it is highly likely that Moore relaxed and calmed down.

>>88829875
IIRC it wasn't that he calmed down about it so much as he didn't want to have anything to do with it again because of all the bad shit that happened with it (working for Dez Skinn, conflicts with Alan Davis over Marvel work, etc etc)

>>88829895
Oh, I didn't know that. What was the drama exactly?

File: Kimota 015.jpg (654KB, 1440x1898px) Image search: [Google]

654KB, 1440x1898px

>>88829970
Part of it Moore explains from his point of view, here from his interview in the Kimota book. Very messy stuff, part of it coming from Skinn's dubious claim to Marvelman.

File: Kimota 016.jpg (737KB, 1440x1925px) Image search: [Google]

737KB, 1440x1925px

>>88830005

File: Kimota 068.jpg (755KB, 1440x1869px) Image search: [Google]

755KB, 1440x1869px

>>88830029
And then this is from Alan Davis' interview in Kimota where he gives his view of the situation.

File: Kimota 069.jpg (724KB, 1440x1907px) Image search: [Google]

724KB, 1440x1907px

>>88830071

File: 1482133329596.jpg (13KB, 305x385px) Image search: [Google]

13KB, 305x385px

>>88828450
From the archive:
>The storyline features several dark and twisted versions of classic DC Comics character, such as Doll-Man reduced to a shapeless monster, Plastic-Man being a fading gigolo, Captain Marvel forcing Mary Marvel into an incestuous marriage, Congorilla being a mobster who tortures his emaciated human body, Blackhawk being a delusional pedophile, and Captain Marvel, trapped in a child's body by continuous exposure to the magic lightning, developing sadomasochistic tendences and having his neck snapped by the Martian Manhunter impersonating a prostitute.

It's extremely edgy, but a really sick part of me deep down inside still kinda wants to see it.

File: Kimota 070.jpg (754KB, 1440x1928px) Image search: [Google]

754KB, 1440x1928px

>>88830084

File: Kimota 071.jpg (910KB, 1440x1912px) Image search: [Google]

910KB, 1440x1912px

>>88830134
You can see from how Alan Davis describes here that it's a really fucked up situation.

File: Kimota 072.jpg (827KB, 1440x1903px) Image search: [Google]

827KB, 1440x1903px

>>88830149
Remember that Alan Moore doesn't like to be party to situations where he's swindling someone, so I think he would've been upset to be a party to this sort of thing unintentionally and that's probably why he wanted to disavow his Miracleman work, moreso when he found out in the 2000's that Dez Skinn never legally got the rights to Marvelman in the first place.

>>88828450
>>88830092
https://archive.org/stream/TwilightOfTheSuperheroes/TwilightOfTheSuperheroes_djvu.txt

Don't really know why Alan Moore's still hung up over Watchmen because the Alan Moore of the late 80s is a much different beast than he is now. Back then, he was interested in telling moral stories and his own mental crises through superheroes, whereas the Alan now forgoes all of that to just vent out whatever pisses him off. Even his circle of friends is completely different, with every bridge he had back in his DC days completely burnt. I guess the only person from that era he still keeps in touch with is Neil Gaiman, and even that's dubious since I've haven't heard any recent talks between them.

File: WTF.gif (1MB, 450x253px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 450x253px

>>88830201
The passage about Doll Man is too long for me to post here and do justice too, but holy fucking shit.

>>88830299
I know he was friends with Paul Cornell for a bit. Dunno much beyond noting it was a thing though and dunno if it's still a thing or not.

>>88830317
Fixed the formatting
>Darrel Dane is probably the most unsettling and pitiful character in our cast, even though we don't see much of him. What has happened, basically, is that the constant shrinking and growing, plus the effects of the square cube law with regard to size increase have taken their toll upon him. As the years passed, his bones became brittle and would break easily if he stayed at normal size for too long. Eventually it became easier to stay at six inches tall all the time, but this itself was not the end to the problem—remaining at a constant six inches, Dane's body and brain began to adapt to their new size, redistributing their mass and aging their neurons for greater comfort and effectiveness. As a result, Dane has slowly changed shape into a horrible elongated insect man, still six inches high, whose bone structure has altered dramatically into something barely recognizable as anything that used to be human, although just recognizable enough to be disturbing. His brain has also had to change to accommodate dramtically reduced brain size and capacity. He's still intelligent, but it's a non-human intelligence and he can barely communicate coherently with normal humans anymore. Sandra Knight has taken him under her wing. She keeps him in a vivarium behind the bar (it brings in enough money to pay for his food, and he's too alien to mind being displayed like this, so what the hell, although she still feels bad about it), and Sandy is almost the only person that the former Doll Man can talk to and make himself understood. She's also the only person unselfish enough to be able to bear the creepy little bastard running up her arm to nestle on her shoulder and talk into her ear in his eerie, piping, almost inaudible voice. Darrel Dane, while he's the only person other than Sandy who lives at the bar full time in his tank, is not the only lame duck that Sandy extends her sympathy to.

>>88830299
I guess aside from Neil (who linked to Moore interviews on Twitter, so I think he's still in contact), he could talk to Karen Berger. I don't know if he still talks to Rick Veitch, though. An anon on /co/ claims that Veitch hasn't talked to Moore in a long while and I don't know how true that is. I know he isn't talking to Bissette and Gibbons, though. I don't know what his status is with Totleban.

>>88830299
because Watchmen broke what faith he had in the industry. It was meant to be a warning that making superheroes too edgy just made a story where everyone with a story worth telling got wiped out by idiot manchildren but readers ignored the characters Moore considered actually compelling in favor of celebrating the manchildren and the disasters they wrought.

After that he concluded there was no point in trying so just fuck it

>>88828637
My god that whole article was brilliant. Was there ever any response to this or was Moore too BTFO to possibly come back from it?

>>88829021
>Wrong shipping equates to bad writing
Tumblr has been slowly contaminating everything. It is the reason capeshit is in deep shit.

>>88831227
Remember that the whole response of Morrison originated because Moore spoke. I don't think Moore ever responded to Morrison's arguments here, at least not directly that I know of.

>>88831392
It's not the shipping that would trigger anyone, it's the unnecessary edge behind it. And unnecessary edge is very apt description for Twilight of Superheroes.

>>88829246
Moore has always denied this, btw. And Dez is a known liar and hustler so you never know.