So I just watched Civil War, and not even memeing He literally

>>88733019
He sold out, thats about it. I agree more with Cap but he really handled it the worse way possible thanks to his relation to Bucky

>>88733019
He sided withe The Accords and the Accords are broken as shit. Any old ambitious dictator could veto superhero involvement in their plans.

>>88733019
>I'm feeling guilty about a mass murdering genocitron I created and the destruction thereof
>Man I wish I didn't have to be guilty about getting some lady's son killed
>Oh hey, if I let someone else decide for me then it's not my fault, I'm not accountable somehow
>Even up to and including detaining people without due process of any kind
>Great, I gotta stop Cap. Better get a completely unrelated and unmentioned kid into the mix of people with dangerous powers
>this is the best-case scenario. I bring a kid to what I expect to become a war zone. This absolves me of my earlier guilt caused by letting a kid die at my own creation's fault

Tony was entirely personal and completely loses his argument the moment he recruits a fucking minor like Pete to help. The ONLY part of the Accords that makes sense is accountability and reparations. Not making the Avengers the UN's lapdogs. Cap fought against people who were "just following orders", he knows exactly that that shit doesn't fly.

Well he sperged out at Bucky even though he knew he was brainwashed.

He built Ultron

>>88733420
As bad as that was it was completely acceptable from a narrative standpoint. That fits Tony perfectly. He started the movie showing how he spent millions to finally get over his grief of his parents' loss, and then he watches the truth and sees them murdered in front of his own eyes. Tony snapping there is completely justified narratively. Ethically, hell no, but still.

>>88733019
I think that was the point its just retards like these (>>88733357 >>88733416 >>88733420) missed it.

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>>88733416
>>I'm feeling guilty about a mass murdering genocitron I created
He failed to create Ultron, though. Ultron created himself when he connected to the internet.

That's why I hated the movie; the creation of Ultron is instead regulated to what amounts to the AI equivalent of an industrial accident, removing the relation to the Avengers and his "father" that makes Ultron so detestful of them. He just hates them because he thinks they're shit at their jobs, and hates Tony because...why again? Tony's not so much his creator as he is just the idiot that left the stove on.

>>88733561
Go back to drinking, Tony

>>88733585
Even the Ultron Sentinels are actually just Hydra robots. They're not even Ultron's creation, yet suspiciously look like Iron Man somehow.

Joss Whedon seemed like he had a pretty good idea back when Ultron was based off Stark's brain patterns, and just abandoned it yet kept the visual cues that related Ultron to Stark.

>>88733585
The point is not necessarily that Tony created Ultron, but that Tony feels responsible for creating Ultron in this scenario.

In actuality though, he avoids telling anyone but Banner what he's doing because they'll tell him he's being an idiot. Even after Ultron proves to be malicious he's still "Oh save it". You can only disregard people's input if you've already taken it to heart, which Tony clearly hasn't since he did it anyway.

Besides, legally speaking what Tony did was negligent that led to deaths. He's liable there. You get charged for accidentally running someone over, you'd get charged for accidentally burning a building down. Same idea.

>>88733019
he's on the "wrong" side that makes him wrong

>>88733019
>Siding with General I Do what I want Ross
>Right

>>88733416
>I bring a kid to what I expect to become a war zone

This is the part where we disagree. No one in the airport fight was going for the kill, except for Panther. He brought a kid who has a really useful power for detaining people nonlethally, into a battle where no one was trying too kill one another.

>>88733679
>Besides, legally speaking what Tony did was negligent that led to deaths. He's liable there. You get charged for accidentally running someone over, you'd get charged for accidentally burning a building down. Same idea.

In most scenarios, that would be true, but Ultron was a sentient being that made a decision to do those things. Stark is liable for the accident that led to Ultron's creation, but he is not liable for the things Ultron did.

And besides, Wanda is far more guilty than Tony is of the shit that happened in AoU, among them unleashing the Hulk on a civilian population and making a dangerous weapons dealer a multi billionaire, yet she got off entirely scott free, complete with a new home paid for by the very man that she mind-raped into attempting something drastic in the first place.

>>88733778
No one was trying to cripple anyone or cause millions worth of damage and that still happened

>>88733778
>He brought a kid who has a really useful power for detaining people
He also brought WAR MACHINE. And an assassin. With a KID.

>>88733921
To be fair, War Machine was armed with non-lethal weaponry among it's loadout during the airport battle, and Natasha's perfectly capable of being nonlethal (and is, more often than not)

>>88733019
He was straight up manipulated by his guilt for fucking up. Literally every other Avenger said Ultron was an awful idea and he went ahead with it anyway. He wanted someone else to be at fault and government oversight would allow for that.

Cap was right. It was just about passing the buck and countries covering their own ass. Cap was wrong by never calling the cops in Africa.

>>88734279
>Cap was wrong by never calling the cops in Africa.
>the cops didn't notice a huge truck slamming into a guarded barricade, dozens of men rushing in with guns and a public building being filled with tear gas

>>88733785
The fact that they keep treating Wanda like the baby Avenger and not like a repentant terrorist with gallons of blood on her hands is of my major peeves with Civil War

She's all like "People are afraid of me because they don't know me" and I'm like "Bitch people are afraid of you because you've given them very good reasons to fear you."

>>88734279
>Cap was wrong by never calling the cops in Africa.

It was a recon mission until Crossbones made his move.

>>88734279

>Thinks Iron Man was wrong
>Thinks Cap was right even though his only motivation was MUH BUCKY LEAVE MUH BUCKY ALONE!

Cap's point about agenda's is on point though.

The idea of the accords may be good on paper, but it essentially gives power to people who would take advantage of it.

Ross is one of those people,as evidenced in The Incredible Hulk.

>>88734779
the power of lizzie olsen's cute face

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>>88733019
This is stupid, you all argung is stupid.

Directors said that they tried to give both sides good reasons and justifications.

>>88734955
>The idea of the accords may be good on paper

is it though? We're given no indication that anyone even had a chance to read the damn thing.

>>88734981
trying to censor arguments is stupid

are you so NO FUN ALLOWED that you won't entertain the discussion of alternate viewpoints?

>>88733019
Had Zemo not stirred the Bucky pot, the conflict would not have escalated.

The situation with Wanda required the Avengers to behave as a team, Zemo shitted that up with the Bucky stuff.

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>>88734779
>The fact that they keep treating Wanda like the baby Avenger and not like a repentant terrorist

>>88734981
>>88735030

also death of the author

He was wrong about the accords but was right about Bucky, whereas Cap was right about the accords but wrong about Bucky.

Best part of the movie is that Amanda Waller jumped universes to make Tony guilty and break up the Avengers

>>88733528
I sympathized with every character's situation.

Everyone was right and wrong.

>>88733019

well, other than everything being his fault via Ultron and projecting his mistakes onto every meta human.

>>88735107
Except for Rhodes.

>>88735153

Rhodes has without a doubt the shittiest reasoning for agreeing with the accords

"the guberment said so and our overlords are never wrong"

never seen a bigger statist cuck in my entire life

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>>88735030
>Censor

Just said that it was stupid to argue when both sides are made to have valid arguments in universe.

Calm ya tits.

>>88733019
He came off as a big hypocrite to me.

He literally accused Avengers for swagging with their quips around (especially the line "we just kick ass and leave" or something) when he was in fact biggest contributor of "kicking ass" and leaving.

In fact, lads such as Cap and Hulk and Thor were taking their jobs completely seriously, it was him who constantly disobeyed the rules by, uh, I dunno, hacking into Shield's something to find out they are making alien weapons and in fact intended to use Tessaract for exactly that.

>>88735088

you mean the senator from Luke Cage

>>88733019
>Did nothing wrong

>Dragged everyone into another one of his guilt trips
>Backs a retarded piece of legislature which gives power to the simultaneously most corrupt AND incompetent high ranking individual in the Government who presumably doesn't have ties to a psuedo-Nazi organizations.
>Legislature defangs a group that not only saved the world multiple times but did so with ridiculously low casualties
>In the time he was acting within the accords basically enlists a Child soldier whom he drags out of the country without his guardian's consent
>Destroys an airport for no fucking reason
>Demonstrates he really had no clue what the punishment of breaking the accord would be
>Disregards accords on a whim

Not to mention the Accords only went through because the Vibranium Jews. If it'd been a floor full of Ghanans instead of Wakandans this movie wouldn't have happened. Cap's only problem was being too close to the Bucky situation which he was still completely right about.

>>88733528
How does it fit him though? I get being impulsive, but he is a smart, reasonable person for the most part. Cap even says that it's not Bucky's fault and Tony goes "I know, I don't give a shit and I will kill him"

>>88734779
I think Wanda knows that. She struggles with it, and does not know how to deal with it. All the Avengers have done bad shit.

The thing is Tony was the one who didn't treat her like an adult, while Clint and Nat seemed to be most straight with her. Tony makes decisions involving Wanda but never really talks to her (or vice versa).

The whole fear thing, it's a running theme, it's almost like she's Feared Before All Others.

>>88735200
To be fair to the writers, it's exactly what's expected by a military man though

>>88735257
Oh, you're right. Damn, guess I'm racist now.

>>88735392
>it's exactly what's expected by a military man

To an extent but it's not like the military reprograms you or anything. Plus both Cap and Falcon are military men as well.

>>88735350
He's smart and reasonable until he's emotionally compromised which happens constantly

>>88735377
>it's almost like she's Feared Before All Others.

no one (not ever her) knows the extent of her powers, and I'm not sure she's feared more than Hulk is. She and Vision are on a different level from everyone else that was in Civil War.

Capes are based on many assumptions that exist in a world of fiction. Starting with plot armour. Not just life armour, but moral armour - as we know reliably that a superhero will never be truly compromised. Trying to bring in some real world politics and moral complexity into capes will always result in a mess - either the whole premise would need to be overhauled to accommodate it, or the uncomfortable questions would be dismissed with unsatisfying answers.

>>88735350
>but he is a smart, reasonable person for the most part

Every movie he's been in he does stupid shit for the sake of either his ego or his emotions.

>>88733420
Well yes, I'm sure if you saw your parents murdered on camera then you would act reasonably towards their murderer if he stood in the same room as you, regardless if he was brainwashed or not.

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>>88734959
This tbqh.

>>88733778
No one knew how Bucky would react, he could have ended up killing, on top of the fact that most of them are not used to holding back in a fight against a powered opponent, they may have assumed spidey was as durable as he is strong.

>>88735452
But he knows that Bucky was brainwashed and still wanted to execute him. What the fuck is that logic? According to Stark people should just kill him for creating Ultron, fuck he even did it under the influence of Wanda's vision. Bucky had no choice at all.

>>88733561
You gonna offer counterpoints or jus' try to troll?
Also it's a Cap movie. Tony was wrong on principle.

>>88735439
>not like the military reprograms you or anything
It almost literally does.
>>88735619
When? The only point I recall that ever being the case is when he finds out Bucky killed his parents. Before he just seems really naive about what the ramifications were going to be. Apparently he thought they were going to super Therapy.

>>88733585
You're misreading the point. Tony left the program he was using to synthesize an AI from the staff completely unsupervised; the AI arose as intended but because it wasn't being watched, it self-taught and became human-hating Ultron.

It's very much Tony's fault. He created a weapon but didn't watch it to make sure it didn't detonate.

>>88735439
Cap never got broken during boot camp and was deemed unfit for field service until he proved himself valuable asset.

and Falcon seems just as maverick, he indicated there was a pretty good reason why they took his wings away, and he'd kept track of exactly where they were ever since as though he was looking for a good excuse to steal them back anyway.
I mean, Falcon knew Steve for like a week and took very little persuasion to commit treason

>>88735694
>Tony left the program he was using to synthesize an AI from the staff completely unsupervised

It was being supervised by Jarvis, who pretty much handles all things electronic. Tony's continued presence wouldn't have made much difference.

It's an AI, not a fucking toddler.

>>88735619
>under the influence of Wanda's vision
He was working on Ultron stuff before that with the Iron Legion. And Cap got zapped by Wanda and managed to not nearly genocide all life on Earth.

>>88735682
>It almost literally does.

It almost literally doesn't.

>>88735709
>Cap never got broken during boot camp

Modern day boot camp doesn't really break you though. It's Maybe at some point in the past it did, but not anymore.

:>very little persuasion to commit treason

The whole thing with Hydra about to kill 20 million people isn't a good reason?

He didn't quit being Iron Man and get back together with Pepper.

>>88735694
>>88735756

the fact that he didn't even think to unplug its connection to the internet makes it 100% his fault.

>>88735694
>the AI arose as intended but because it wasn't being watched,
Jarvis was only running simulations, not actually trying to apply the Staff's code yet.

It didn't "arise as intended" because it wasn't meant to be applied yet. Jarvis was just trying to figure out HOW it can interact with the iron legion, not actually trying to install it. Instead, it cut Jarvis off from the house and Stark and figured things out for itself.

That's what pisses me off about AoU; a big part of Ultron's whole shtick is being pissed at his creator. That's the entire basis for his daddy issues, but in the movie, Ultron just kind of wakes up on his own by accident without his "creator's" involvement. Fuck, if anything, Jarvis is more of a father to Ultron than Tony is. They kept one of the biggest aspects of Ultron's character without the circumstances that lead to that part of him.

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>>88735481
>and I'm not sure she's feared more than Hulk is.

She shouldn't be. As far as public record goes in the MCU against her, she's only got her association with Ultron's hijacking lab equipment, and Lagos. Hulk openly fought with the military at Culver University, tore ass in Herlem, and tore even bigger ass in Johannesburg.

>>88734959
>>88735617

Fuck...

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>>88735617
>ywn gaze into those eyes

>>88736065
>tfw everyone in the movie lets wanda off the hook, not because of psychic powers but because she's such a top tier qt

>>88735619
Because it can happen again, he blatantly hasn't become "unbrainwashed" and he doesn't want more people's parents to be killed by Bucky, and for himself to be responsible for it by letting him go free.

>>88733019
he put his faith in Thunderbolt Ross

big fucking mistake right there

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>>88736092

I mean to, one day.... Some day.

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>>88736111
You wouldn't mistreat the daughterfu of the Avengers.

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>>88736199

>>88733019

The film definitely did a better job of making Cap's side more fallible even if it's clearly the "right" side in the story.

>>88733019
I miss ACDC playing when Tony showed up.

>>88735965
This. Even Jarvis had no idea how Ultron woke up because the idea of an AI gaining sentience during simple integration trials isn't in the realm of possibility as Stark or Jarvis understands it.

>>88735860
It didn't have access to the internet. It forced it's way into to the internet and cut Jarvis off from it. The code in the staff was advanced as shit, not to mention has a history of being worked on by a Hydra scientist.

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>>88736184
I-i'm sure of that.

>>88735377

Wanda can struggle with it all she wants, but she doesn't want to repent for her actions in any way that's consequential.

The only other Avengers who can really appreciate the concept of their powers/talents causing collateral damage and slaughtering thousands without their intent is Tony and Bruce. And they deal with it very differently, but at least they fucking deal with it and their mistakes eat them up inside fucking constantly.

Wanda doesn't do much but sulk for about a day and then flip out when they don't let her ass outside before she hurts someone else or someone tries to hurt her. Tony and Bruce aren't absolutely 100% correct in the way they deal with their problems, but at least they care.

>>88733019
I'll give the movie this, they did a way better job than the original event in making it possible to not think he was some sort of super-fascist, just having a difference of opinion.

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>>88736810
Indeed. Though I wish they'd kept some of their debates from earlier drafts.

>TONY: Steve...

>STEVE: Don't, Tony.

>TONY: Don't what? Don't try to get you to stop acting like an ass or don't call you an ass in the first place... Oops, too late.

>STEVE: I'm glad someone is enjoying himself.

>TONY: Man, what is it with you? You dress up in the flag, you name yourself after our country, but the minute the actual government asks for some accountability, you go all James Dean. You're either schizo, or maybe just a tiny bit of a liar.

>STEVE: You pulled your weapons contracts, you sat in front of the Congress and told them they couldn't have your Iron Man technology, because you were the only one responsible enough to use it. Now you're willing to let them turn us into a branch of the military, no questions asked. If you want schizo... Look in the mirror.

>TONY: I cancelled my contracts so that I could stop people from getting killed. Same with giving away my suit. But people are dying anyway, because of me... Us.

>STEVE: War isn't clean, Tony. And no matter how high the tech, it's rarely precise. There's always collateral damage. That's why it's fought by soldiers, not businessmen.

>TONY: That's your problem, Steve. You're still at war. 70 years and you're still in the trenches with your old old rules and ideas. I'm trying to build the future, and you're trashing half of Europe trying to raise the dead.

>>88736372
>It didn't have access to the internet. It forced it's way into to the internet

You don't understand what I'm saying.Of course if Tony just turned the wifi card off the super advanced AI could turn it back on. I'm talking about removing the internet connection altogether. no matter how advanced an AI is it can't get to the internet if there is no connection to take advantage of.

>>88734779

She kind of is the baby Avenger. Like Cap, she allowed herself to be experimented upon to save her homeland, but she was manipulated by those that empowered her, and save for the influence of her only family member she may well have hailed hydra for the rest of her days.

The Avengers took her in, and are training her. Hence the little lessons they give her at the beginning of Civil War. She's learning control over her powers and herself, and she's performed admirably. Accidents happen, but she wasn't the one that brought the bomb. Rumlow did. She saved just as many lives as were lost by his actions. She's just unfairly getting the blame.

>>88734919
To be fair, Bucky did pull him out of the water. And then went into hiding. Bombing a peace conference isn't the way to stay under the radar, something the Winter Soldier, a hardened spy and assassin, was trained to do. It smelled like a setup from the get-go, but Cap was the only one actually investigating as everyone else was given a Kill On Sight notice.

With the Accords in play, Stark didn't know where to go, with Cap and saving his friend, or on the side of the law and trying to keep the Avengers from becoming outlaws. Ross wasn't giving him much time, and had the authority to put them all under arrest. And odds are he would have wanted to put a bullet in Bucky's head rather than capture him alive.

Then there are the super soldiers on ice everyone but Cap was willing to ignore...

>>88735626
nigga this film was avengers 2.5 featuring captain america.

>>88733420
He wouldnt have spread out on Bucky if Steve didn't lie

Steve was wrong

>>88733700
The point of Civil War is that both sides are right.

>>88734981

This.

Neither side did nothing wrong. And it's fucking about time that a movie had some balls to show the audience that sometimes there's no easy answers. Whether you go left or right, each path has it's own problems and benefits.

>>88737104

The scene reminded me of the YouTube cop video when he talks about how after he pulled someone over, had him on the hood, and while the cop was inside his car, the man bolted and ran for his car. The cop, through pure muscle memory was out of his car, weapon drawn and ready to fire. He was trained to fire before the person can pull out a weapon or use (what usually happens) the his car to hit the officer.

But all the guy was doing was hitting the emergency brake. Car was rolling towards his car. Officer talks about how you can easily pick apart a scene afterwards when you have all the time in the world and easily lay blame. But when things are happening in a fraction of a second, shit happens.

>>88737071
That's not bad, but I can't imagine Cap saying schizo.

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Wanda did nothing wrong.

>>88737104

>Accidents happen, but she wasn't the one that brought the bomb. Rumlow did. She saved just as many lives as were lost by his actions. She's just unfairly getting the blame.

Unfairly? She made a judgment call, it backfired, and she just goes home and feels bad about it. If the officer in >>88737579 shot and killed that man, there would have been an investigation, and he would have been at risk of losing his job. What does Wanda get? A warm blanket and some milk and being told it's not her fault? The Avengers are beholden to nobody but themselves, basically a more down to earth Justice League. And with all the same problems.

>>88733778
He kidnapped a minor (bringing him over international lines), & most likely didn't have him sign the accords, yet had him partake in actions in support of them. Right there, he's a hypocrite.

>>88733019
fucking hell i tought captain amarica killed him by fisting his shiny chest middle nipple

>>88737714
She was put under house arrest and had her rights, as a person, taken away. An inquiry, an investigation, would have been fair. But effectively enslaving her, for life, without parole, when she wasn't tried, let alone convicted of a crime? That's beyond the pale. Whether she signed the accords or not, she shouldn't have to give up her rights to life, her liberty, when all she was doing was saving lives.

I certainly don't see anyone else signing up to take on Hydra.

The issue of responsability is the thread that weaves throughout all the major character arcs.
Tony is all about trying to absolve himself of responsibility.
Cap and Bucky take responsibility. Even when, in the case of the latter Buck's got a pefect excuse to get out of it.
Then T'Challa has to assume the responsibilities both of king and filiel piety and how he learns to not get consumed by them.
Then you have Spider-man and that should be obvious.

Tony is the only one running from responsibility by trying to hide behind others.

>>88737714

She didn't use her powers to kill anyone though; it's not the equivalent of shooting someone. It's the equivalent of having a grenade thrown at you and tossing it aside really quick to save yourself.

>muh parents
lol

>>88738467
>edgy

>>88737383
But they weren't.
Just Tony's.

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>>88738820
>Tony
>right

>>88735301
Ross has no ties to Hydra; even they have standards.

>>88733778
Vision was. He clearly was trying to kill Sam Wilson when he accidentally shot Warmachine. A blast that completely sheered Warmachine's armor which resulted in his free fall. If he would have hit Sam the same result probably would have happened. If the blast from vision wouldn't have sheered completely through him he would have fell to the ground and died since he isn't wearing a suit of armor to protect him. So either the blast would have killed him or the fall. Something Rhodes only managed to live through because he was wearing armor.

>>88737383
>Civil War had a point

please stop. It was an excuse for the Air Port fight sequence.

>>88737328
That's what pushed Tony over.

He witnessed his best friend crippled, his "family" broken and imprisoned, and at the heart of this is the man his dad constantly lauded as perfect.

It was a mix of grief, stress, and daddy issues in a perfect storm.

>>88739172

At the angle he was aiming from it would slice all the way through Sam's jet pack, disabling the engine and he would have parachuted down.

>>88739491

no, it was an excuse for the "You don't deserve that shield" line.

How the hell would the UN enforce the Accords on someone like Thor?

>>88739649
nuke asgard

I loved the film and still side with Cap, but the writers reaaaaally fucked up by making the governing body the UN.

I could understand if it was a shady non-transparent body like SHIELD or the World Security Council, but it's the fucking UN, the least threatening organization in the world. Even Jean Claude Van Damme couldn't make those blue berets badass. In the real world the biggest shame would've been that the UN never let the Avengers do anything, just like it didn't let its blue helmeted warriors stop the genocide in Rwanda.

Shit, now that I think about it, the Avengers were basically a (free, to be fair) PMC demanding total autonomy for missions that routinely risked civilian lives.

>>88739649
I dont even think the UN recognizes Asgard as a nation. Half of them are still probably debating it even exists

>>88739582
Assuming the shot was perfect when it wasn't as admitted by Vision himself since he was distracted.

>>88739851
>In the real world the biggest shame would've been that the UN never let the Avengers do anything

yeah which is pretty much what kept happening in the movie.

>>88735350

He literally watched Barnes beat his father to death and choke his mother to death.

I like to think I would've been more rational than Tony, but I'm pretty sure I'd try to kill someone who strangled my mom even if it was to stop her from launching a fucking nuke. She's my MOM.

>>88734981
>>88735206

>that art

I'm not sure why R63 Stark bothers me so much but it does. Stop it.

>>88733019
Civil War was trash and the fact that anyone thinks the guy Captain America fought against in a Captain America move was right means that the directors did a terrible job. "Muh 50-50 split" was so unbelievably idiotic. Cucking Cap in his own film? Despicable.

>>88739577
So it's just Ironman 4?

>>88738235
And being under house arrest means she can't credibly sign the Accords anyway, really, as her signature is made worthless by her legal situation.

Tony and Steve had no real answers, though both were right and wrong.

The dysfunctional relationships within this family did alot of Zemo's work for him.

I would not be surprised if by the time of Infinity War, Vision is more human than an increasingly alien Wanda.

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>>88736239
That coat makes her hips look so wide.

>>88740202
Considering the break out, I would think the reverse. Wanda escaped, possibly to Wakanda with the rest of Cap's Avengers, and is likely to be protected and looked after by them. Vision is living at the compound, likely alone if he isn't in charge of Rhodey's rehabilitation, and Tony isn't going to stick around 24/7 for him to socialize with. Vision likely wouldn't be able to leave the compound under the same rationalization that had Wanda trapped there, especially since he's prone to friendly fire.

Wanda has friends and socialization. Vision becomes even more isolated and alone. Unless, of course, he's able to use the internet to have cyber sex with Wanda via skype or something to keep him sane.

>>88739889
Tony snapping was understandable.

>>88739990
It was Spiderman who really cucked Cap. His intro scene was longer than any of Cap's scenes.

Portraying the protagonist as flawed and even wrong is pretty bold in a mainstream movie.

Or do you prefer bland cliche?

His actor ate up too much of the budget by wanting more screentime in a movie called Captain America.

>>88737664
It only works if Tony says it first so Steve can turn it back on him. You're right, though, it's unnatural dialogue coming from someone with such anachronistic diction. I think Evans could pull off the delivery but if it I were writing it, I'd massage the dialogue to avoid wording it quite that way in the first place.

>>88740748
Or go full Sam Raimi.

>>88740973

IT'S YOU WHO'S OUT TONY

>>88735200
He didn't agree that just a small group of people should go around deciding what was right for everybody else.

He felt that was "Dangerously arrogant."

Last I checked, Cap wasn't a big fan of fascism, yet he was perfectly fine with the Avengers being answerable to no one.

Not to mention, both he and Tony recognized that they weren't being given a choice, they either got on board with the accords or there was no more Avengers. This was the only way to actually keep helping people without having to fight the entire world to do it.

It's a shit situation, but he was just trying to stay in the fight as best he could.

>>88735619
>But he knows that Bucky was brainwashed and still wanted to execute him.
Because he's fucking angry! Why is this so hard for you to understand, man? Do you not get emotions? Extreme anger can make someone act completely irrational, and Tony just found out the cause of the most painful event in his life was caused by a man standing right next to him, and that someone he considered a friend knew about it and didn't tell him. That was all the emotional turmoil he could handle and flipped the fuck out.

It has nothing to do with intelligence or thinking reasonably about the situation. It was raw emotion, and if you can't understand that then I really worry about those who may encounter you in real life.

>>88741509
>>88741509
This. Rhodey was doing what he felt was right; he wanted the team to stick together. Rhodey is used to working within the system, and as such, he feels it can work.

At the end of the movie he reiterates his belief that the Accords were right, yet he is also clearly saddened by what has happened, and not just for personal reasons.

These people all care about each other, and in many cases, this is the only family they have, and it's now broken.

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>>88740621
For good reason; he's literally the best part of the movie.

I never thought I'd say this, but for once, Stark was the best character in an ensemble film; turns out all he needs is a capable pair and writers and directors. I'm really looking forward to the Infinity War flicks now

>>88738401

She acted without thinking, people that would have lived died instead.

That's worthy of scrutiny, it's ridiculous to excuse this on top of all the other shit she has on her rap sheet.

>>88742165

Panther is the best part of the movie tho

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Don't bullshit me, Rogers.
>yfw

>>88741509
>deciding what was right

last I checked the Avengers only fought murderers, which is illegal in every country

>>88741905
>These people all care about each other, and in many cases, this is the only family they have

Did you notice that Rhodey has no chemistry with literally anyone on the team? He's sort of the odd one out who's only a coworker, and not a friend to anyone except Tony. Panther and Cap are already better friends than Rhodey was with anyone (except Tony obviously)

No, the movie just made you sympathize with him and RDJ is a good actor.

Tony is very easily emotionally compromised, which already had big consequences in AOU and got worse in CW.

>Gets spooked by nightmare vision
>Panics, fiddles with alien technology that ends up destroying a whole country
>Is blamed for the death of a young victim
>Panics and becomes Ross' bitch, urging the whole team to do the same so he can stop feeling guilty
>Is confronted with the death of his parents by the hands of Bucky who he knows was under mind-control
>Goes apeshit and tries to kill him anyways.

He knew Ross was a cunt and the MCU government is corrupted as fuck.

Steve was wrong in not telling him about his parents sooner though.

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>>88742780
It's been there since the first movie.
>Sees terrorists on tv killing people across the globe
>Flies the fuck down there and executes them.

>>88742429

And yet people lived that would have died otherwise. If she hadn't contained the blast, Cap and all of the civilians on the ground would have been killed, and the building would have collapsed entirely having had its lower floor taken out. She didn't have the strength to hold it forever, she acted as best as she could considering the circumstances.

She isn't a cop. But she's training. That's why she's with the Avengers and not out living her life as a civilian. She's already on parole, if a self-imposed one, making amends and deferring to the knowledge and experience of other heroes, especially people she's hurt in the past. It shows that she's serious about learning control and earning her place among them, and especially holding herself accountable. Which is why it hits her so hard when she couldn't save everyone.

I'm not disagreeing that it should be scrutinized, but she should be given her day in court, not bound into slavery without trial.

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>>88742969

Linda! Is that you?!

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>>88743004

Tony is usually wrong. He makes bad decisions and is too affected by his daddy issues and manlet inferiority complex.

>>88743145

Pretty sure you could simplify that down even more and say that his daddy issues are caused by him being a manlet. So really manlet status is the source of all Tony's problems.

>>88737761
Cap obviously didn't see anything wrong with it. He could tell Peter was very young and didn't seem bothered at all, which makes sense considering his own age when he joined the army.

Rhodey did comment on it though and Tony just waved it off. So yeah, kind of a dick move, but Peter was spanking team Cap's asses 90% of the battle anyways.

>>88742721
They may be only killing terrorists, robots, and alien invaders but it's basically akin to a PMC crew rolling in and blowing away all the terrorists then fucking off.....which I have no ideal the legality/ramifications of if a legal PMC crew did that.
It also helps the Avengers are pretty morally Caucasian and do a ridiculously good job. Only real grey action they've ever taken is adopting Wanda despite the fact she would totally have crimes to answer for at the very least in South Korea.

>>88743372
As long as those PMC's are approved, aka, they agreed to only accept contracts by the US government, they could technically do it, but they are PMCs, they don't fight for free.

>>88743372
>Only real grey action they've ever taken is adopting Wanda despite the fact she would totally have crimes to answer for at the very least in South Korea.


Granted, she was an accomplice to Ultron, but in South Korea all she did was breaking and entering into that lab, accessory to theft, and possible sexual assault depending on how you categorize mind control. And after that she and her brother save a train full of civilians. All in all, I say it balances out so long as the doctor doesn't feel like pressing charges over it.

>>88733019
All hero organizations that are forced violate the NAP

>trusting the government to be your handler
Not even Tony would be this stupid IRL

>>88743437

She didn't mind control anyone in Korea; Ultron used the staff to do it.

>>88742659

and Panther wasn't even there because he agreed with the accords or Stark.
he just wanted to fuck up Bucky.

http://teatotally.tumblr.com/post/144240012830/the-accords-were-always-a-disaster-in-the-making

>>88743476

she caused the Hulk to go berserk, which caused mass mayhem and destruction...

>>88743512
>It would have taken less than ten minutes for them to dig up some real-world examples of disastrous policies that led to the slaughter of thousands of innocent people

Stopped reading there. That's not how the real world works.

>>88743476
Hence why she's an "accessory".

>>88743514

not in Korea

>>88743565

accessory to mind control? I there a law for that?

>>88743549

the real world doesn't have examples?

>>88743437
>>88743602
Murder and Grand Larceny.

>>88743602
>accessory to mind control? I there a law for that?

It may classify as sexual assault, depending on context and the wording of the applicable laws.

>>88743629

he didn't sex her though

>>88743665
They did have a baby.

>>88743613

People make bad policy decisions all the time in the real world if it fits their agenda.

>>88743700

k

>>88743713

told ya.

>>88743725

Told me what?

So the illegal detainment of a minor is now "nothing wrong" ???
Or the incarceration of people without any respect to due process or the law (the law, remember?)???

/pol/ really has to stop making threads on /co/ and start asking these questions on their containment board, as God intended.

>>88743805
>minor
I think they just call Wanda a kid because she's younger than the rest.
She's probably in her early 20's.

>>88743819

>girl in her early 20s molesting a 1 year old

why does no one comment on this

>>88743805
>I'm gonna call it /pol/ because I disagree with people in the thread.

Fucking Christ get over yourself. Either leave the thread or actually commit to having a discussion. Crying /pol/ every-time a thread derails, its childish.

>>88743852
Are you talking about the toaster?
>>88743888
Well fuck your grandma if you seriously think ignoring some people's legal rights whenever they're inconvenient isn't 100% /pol/ bullshit.

>>88743993
Again you're just using /pol/ as a meaningless buzzword.

it adds nothing to the conversation other than " you're acting like people I dont like"

The concept was already a failure when it was a part of a series of movies featuring characters that have literally saved the entire globe multiple times.

You can't make the tipping point "oops, less than a dozen people were accidentally killed while we were stopping terrorists from releasing a bio-weapon"

There's a very reasonable argument to make about oversight. It's hard to make that argument when it's jesus/superman.

>>88744054
It's not a buzzword, asswipe.
It's a board topic.
As in: not this board's topic.

The movie reason for the "Civil War" (more of a civil dispute) were pretty bad. It went from being a topical issue about security vs freedom to being Cap acting emotionally because he has a little buddy.

I still can't get over the silly ass "climax" fight of the movie at the airport.

I get what they were going for, those 'epic' comic book two pagers with all the fighters lining up to charge each other in a showdown to end the world. But what we got was a dozen people in a largely empty field running at each other. I was embarrassed to watch.

>>88744645
Ah yes, the cinematography autists.
Glad you are irrelevant.

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>>88744777
Trips confirms their irrelevance.

>>88744807

>trips

full house if I ever saw one

>>88733019
It's almost like both sides had valid points to make.

>>88742721
wrong asshole. rhodey and nat were obviously friends. They new each other since IM two. You can see them catching up and chilling with each other in the party scene in AOU. He also seemed damn cool with maria hill. fuck off. all these guys are friends on some base lvl.

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>Make characters unlikable pricks on purpose
>start to think midway through "cool, gonna end with them compromising and realizing they're both wrong"
>cap wins
>mfw

>>88744777
What the fuck are you blathering on about?

>>88739649

They wouldn't. Or Asgard itself. They are effectively a nation that could take over earth whenever they want and it is only their benevolence that stops them from doing so.

Nothing is stopping Asgard from just warping a dozen warriors into the White House and taking over the US except that they are nice enough not to do that.

Nothing on earth can stop them. They can't nuke Asgard because only Asgard controls what does and doesn't go there, which means all Heimdall has to do is not let the nuke in and they win. And good luck trying to trick the omniscent guy that can see everywhere.

It's places like that which is why the UN need to shut up and accept that earth is bottom tier in the galaxy and is only allowed to cotinue to exist because certain high level beings that cannot in any way control are choosing to protect it to allow it to be.

>>88737383
I got the impression that both sides were right and wrong at the same time. It was actually handled pretty well IMO. Better than in the comics.

>>88744853
>rhodey and nat were obviously friends

they never have any actual dialog together.

>He also seemed damn cool with maria hill.

She's not even part of the team.

>all these guys are friends on some base lvl.

except Rhodey

I sympathized with Tony more than I have in any other movie, but he was wrong and he knew he was wrong.

He broke the accords several times himself, which shows he didn't actually support the limitations they were putting on them. But he was still willing to arrest all his friends over them instead of listening to Steve about the danger. Rhodey at least fully supported the Accords and believed in them, but Tony only cared about making good with Pepper and his own guilt over Ultron.

While I understand his anger at finding out how his parents died, and I can understand being mad at Steve about not telling him, attempting to kill Bucky was wrong. Yes, he was angry and had every right to be, I'm not saying it's out of character for him to lash out. But if he had actually killed Bucky in his fit of rage it a. wouldn't have made him feel better because he knows Bucky was mind controlled and not the one ultimately responsible b. he'd feel guilty as fuck for killing Steve's best friend, an action he could never take back c. he'd be a murderer of his own will which puts him into villain motivation territory. It'd be a very short lived victory and an action that I honestly don't think Tony would be happy to live with after it was over. By stopping Tony, Steve saved both Tony and Bucky.

>>88744867
>Accords still going
>Friends in jail
>Bro on ice
>stuck in Africa

How did Cap win?

>>88739582

>implying he could have made the shot

if you look at the angle, it would have gone through the jet pack and his fucking head

>>88745450
>>Friends in jail

did you even see the movie

Also just look at all the Avengers that like Cap more

>Wanda
>Widow
>Hawkeye
>Falcon
>Ant-Man
>now even Panther

Tony has an empty mansion with a crippled friend and an autistic robot.

>>88745477

but the jet pack is carbon fiber, explaining the rigidity/flexibility ratio

>>88745450
Liberals like Cap have only ever known "moral victories"

>>88739491
You seem upset.

>>88733357
Cap said the UN is run by ppl the same as the world security council and S.H.I.E.L.D.

Agenda's change and if the Avengers have to take orders from someone other then themselves then things could go bad.

>>88745534
The world you looking for is "Triggered"

>>88743437
All i keep hearing about wanda is that she needs to "answer for her crimes". Let me ask you something: how should she do her penitence? Prison? Yeah, that's a good idea, try to imprision a reality bender so that she escapes (now angry) and kills everyone she believes responsible of imprisoning her. Death? Same as above. The best way of making her pay for her crimes is by making her do it willingly (wich she does in the movie until Hawkeye tricks her into breaking out) and putting her powers in the service of the good people (wich she tries to do to in the movie)

>>88745536

>SHIELD
>That organization full of world class super spies that was infiltrated by a fascist subset and launched a nearly successful coup.

Youd think one attempt at recruiting would have gone south in 60s years would have gotten them busted.

I aint trusting sheild with shit.

>>88745597
>how should she do her penitence
On her back with a smile.

>>88745641

DELET

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>>88733019
>He literally did nothing wrong
No, he failed in the worst trope possible of "to allies fight each other" and it's one of the reason I dislike Civil Wars

He fell for the
-Someone is pulling the strings behind us, if you take five seconds to listen
-I am not listening, I am to angry to listen even though we are just talking right now and if I did we couldn't get into this super fight the audience I paid to see.

If you want two allies to fight, you write a good reason for them to fight and actually address why other alternative couldn't exists. You don't make asspull like that.

Also, Not Toney's direct fault, but
-What about a Lawyer
-Hahahhaha
NO! You don't laugh it off. That's a fucking valid point. You don't laugh it off in an other shitty writing asspull.
And
-Antman in the antman movie try to make a better name for himself and be back with his daughter
-Civil wars? Lets go back to Jail, I don't fucking care.

>>88733416
You forget
>I know he was brainwashed, but I am going to pull a tantrum anyway. I am totally not falling for Zemo's plan.
one of the best fight ruined by this premise.

When I see how many ways all this mess could have been prevented, I consider both Tony and cap at fault. But more at fault are the writers.

Did I complain yet about Spiderman? Not that he was completely bad but the "We planned Spiderman from the start in the movie, it was him or nothing, he is an integral part of the movie" bullshit they fed us is nauseating. Anyone who look at this movie can see it for clear that he was a last minute edition, with his dialogues with Cap "have you seen how cool we are with each other, despite being opponent, look at this new character we are introducing to the MCU, aren't we all cool" being Kranked to the max.

fuck, this is the Worst MCU movie so far. And not Worst as in "not as good as other, but still good" like Age of Ultron, I mean actually bad.

So much is forced in CW.

>>88745718
>-Antman in the antman movie try to make a better name for himself and be back with his daughter
>-Civil wars? Lets go back to Jail, I don't fucking care.

At the end of the movie he was willing to sacrifice his own life to keep his daughter safe. Which is the same thing he did in Civil War.

> "We planned Spiderman from the start in the movie, it was him or nothing, he is an integral part of the movie" bullshit they fed us is nauseating. Anyone who look at this movie can see it for clear that he was a last minute edition,

Spider-Man was in the original pitch, then they rewrote without him and added Panther, and then at the last minute they added Spidey back in.

>this is the Worst MCU movie so far. And not Worst as in "not as good as other, but still good" like Age of Ultron
>Age of Ultron still good
>Civil War worse than Age of Ultron

what's wrong with you, man?

>>88733767
>Siding with Captain I Do what I want Rogers
>Right

>>88745772
>and then at the last minute they added Spidey back in.
And it shows.

>what's wrong with you, man?
Nothing AoU is actuallly good. the hate for it has always blaffed me and make no fucking sense.

At least in AoU, the conflicts make sense, the narrative flow and there is nothing that feel out of place or seems to come out of nowhere.

YES, I AM INCLUDING THOR'S VISION. I don't understand why so many people consider it confusing.

-Wanda giva hallucination to Thor who has him worried
-He decide to check at the source, to have a clearer view of the vision, because he suspect there might be something bad going on
-The Vision grant him the first actual peak in the Threat that thanos has
-it result in him actually taking the decision to grant life to Vision.

this whole part as a reason to be and end up being essential in the development of the plot. Now compare to Spiderman, who could have been removed without any impact on the story and this is one of the many reasons AoU is better than CW.

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Almost got killed by his own weapon in the desert, was betrayed, almost died again. Year after he's dying again from paladium poisoning, someone tried to kill him again and again.
And then Avengers happens, and it's not an evil humans who wants to kill him, it's a fucking god with alien army trying to take over the world. Tony didn't left, even though he wasn't suppose to be an Avenger, he almost died in outer space, trying to save the city.
Now he's suffering from panic attacks, scared as fuck, and some asshole almost killed his friend and tried to kill him in his own house. Went through some shit once again, but finally decided that he can't save the world on his own, destroys his costumes, and finally retires.
Yeah, exept the world is threatened again, Hydra pops out, and he had to assemble Avengers again, at this point he just wants to stay away from the duty of saving the world, he takes the opportunity to establish safety of the world with AI. Fucks up big time, hundreds of people dies because of him. And now he just wants to make it up with the world, giving away money to students, ready to deal with any ultimatum government is setting. Exept his fellow Avengers don't want to deal with it. He tries to talk them into sense, to sit down and figure everything out. Nope, "WE FIGHT". And what's the result? His best friend is crippeled and his team is broken apart. Yet he's ready to accept his mistake and help Captain, it's another world threat after all, god damn superhumans again. And here he is with broken mind and body, watching a man standing 10 feet away from him choking his mother and punching his father to death.
Being Tony is suffering.

>>88733019
BORING

>>88745718
>I am not listening, I am to angry to listen even though we are just talking right now and if I did we couldn't get into this super fight the audience I paid to see.
A bunch of things has been leading up to Tony and Steve getting in a fist-fight, they've been at each other's throat in both Avengers movies.

Tony has spent his entire life feeling inferior because his daddy seemingly cared more about Cap than spending time with his own son. Then he finds out that this amazing American hero everyone loves and praises for being 'the better man', who Tony is jealous of because he himself wants to be that better man, Cap who always tells him 'we should trust each other' and 'don't keep secrets from the team Tony', kept the truth about how his parents died from him out of selfishness because he wanted to keep his fuckbuddy safe. .
MCU Tony is a manchild emotionally, and makes bad/borderline retarded decisions all of the time. It's completely in character for Tony to sperg out and attempt to kill Bucky after being triggered by the footage, and it's completely in character for Steve to try and stop Tony.

Tony was wrong, but the team was at fault for not noticing his servere emotional/mental problems before things got out of hand.

>PTSD
>Panic attacks
>Girlfriend just left
>Borderline depression
>Prone to making really dangerous decisions when emotionally compromised.
>Spends hundreds of millions on creating a therapy device where he can 'make things right' with his dead parents

Why didn't anyone think to themselves 'this guy needs serious help'?

You could argue Tony is a grown man who should be able to ask for help when he needs it, but he obviously can't, he'd rather spend millions on a highly advanced simulation than go to a psychiatrist.

>>88733019
b-but anon muh freddoms
who cares about mutie terrorist getting away and blowing up hundreds of people as long as i'll able to keep muh freedoms

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>>88735350
>but he is a smart, reasonable person for the most part.

>IM1 was him trying to do right with emotional guilt of being an arms dealer
>IM3 was him trying to get over his PTSD
>Ultron was him trying to get over his inability to retire, also the same PTSD
>Civil War was him trying to get over being the cause of ultron

emotionally reasonable people don't cause multiple movies' worth of problems over their feelings.

>>88733019
I think it's relative. He basically didn't want to own up to future mistakes. You can see that as wrong or just self preservation.

I don't really think both parties did something wrong. They just had their own morals and biases that they follow

I'm legit glad that months later, this portion of the movie is still discussed.

>>88735107
I feel the same way

>>88747080

Yeah, government control would've stopped crossbones, a normal human, from blowing himself up.

Superheroes don't have the right to be superheroes without the majority approval of the people they protect.
It's really that simple. I don't care how pure of heart they are. If they want to act as the guardians of our world rules need to be in place.

>>88739851
More like a pmc merely asking that legislature enacted be deliberated on and carefully, rationally constructed (i.e. the fucking bare minimum that should be expected of and received from lawmakers anywhere in the world) for the good of all governed by the law rather than a rushed knee-jerk reaction for political wanking. The Patriot Act after 9/11 sure worked some miracles for the good of the nation eh?


Also, I can't possibly be the only person who remembers that if nothing else the US government has exactly zero credibility and negative legs to stand on when talking of collateral damage and lack of oversight. They tried to nuke NYC without evacuating civilians or its own fucking military force on the ground, then were blindsided by a Nazi coup that was commandeering a trio of flying (government produced, sanctioned, and manned!) Genocidemobiles, and both fucking times had their asses bailed out by the Avengers. I am salty as FUCK neither the nuke nor the incident with the carriers ever comes up in these debates except for the one throwaway comment by Tony stroking his own ego (however rightly so that time).


>>88742165
He makes for a good villain since he's borderline evil in CW but it's easy to sympathize with his motivations.


>>88739649
>how would the UN enforce the Accords on the sovereign of a nation not included nor bound by the UN and in fact entirely fucking alien due to not even being on Earth itself

They wouldn't, and couldn't. They could ask very politely for Thor to not interfere unless requested, and if he interfered anyway they could either pout or the nation in question could defend its territory from such a foreign "invasion" at its discretion, but good luck with that.


>>88745812
>the government is right, especially when it is assbackward wrong

I just rewatched it on Netflix too.

What really struck me is just how really solid the action and stunt work is. The camera work is really jerky and frantic, with lots of stuff going on, so it's hard to tell what's going on with just a single viewing. Usually when camera work is like that, it's just to cover up really weak action. Not in this case.

>>88747492
Yeah, in this case it's just there so the audience gets violently ill watching the camera shake like that at 24Hz.

Civil War and Winter Soldier were both awful and I don't know why everyone loves them so goddamned much

>>88733019
He dragged a kid into an armed conflict.

>>88744867
If Cap won, people wouldn't be arguing who was right for months

>>88747599
Well, we're not all /tv/ memesters, kiddo.

>>88747682
What, did the mention of a refresh rate trigger you?

>>88745491
Did i miss the part where everyone who got arrested got let out of jail?
>even Panther
Oh Mr. No Fun whose dad started all that stupid bullshit.

>>88747703
>Did i miss the part where everyone who got arrested got let out of jail?
Yes, they got let out by Cap.

>>88747720
Oh I did completely forget that.
Alright Cap wins.

>>88747445
>the government that doesn't want some self righteous pricks doing whatever they want just because they're "superheroes" is wrong

>>88742984
Also there's the fact that Wanda has been misled about the nature of her powers.

Her powers are in fact connected to her emotions, not her mind. Hence why she suddenly got more powerful after Clint's pep-talk in AoU, the explosion after Pietro's, and why Falcon had to assist her in taking down the mook in Lagos.

"I can't control their fear, only my own."

Only Wanda can figure out her powers because they are part of who she is.

>>88743174
Tiny Stark.

>>88745536
>world security council
I don't know if Cap knew about the nuke thing but if he did that should be enough to say fuck the accords.

>>88747838
Even neglecting that. They also had two hydra heads on it

>>88743819
Writers said they call her a kid partly because they are scared of her.

>>88745641
> With a smile

That may be asking too much.

>>88735257
lets not get crazy, she was a city council woman.

>>88733019
The deaging CGI scene was totally testing the waters for Teen Tony

Stark will die in Infinity War and they get his younger self

He and Pete will hit it off

>>88743174
>All movies and many of the comics mention Tony's dad and how he always overshadows him.
>but he killed my mom!

brilliant line.

>>88734997
The best reason to give the Accords the middle finger is that Ross was the one championing them.

That followed by Steve clearly reading through them and finding a lot of loopholes and giant problems. He mentioned to Tony that he'd want them changed and fixed to work properly, and Tony was all for "yeah we'll change that on the sly it'll be fine" while casually breaking the Accords when he didn't feel like following them.

>>88748009
Still looked better than Tarkin and Leia in Rogue One.

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>>88749193
I would imagine because there's a difference between de-aging the face of an actor that's present and trying to make someone else look like a young version of an actor that isn't even on set.

>>88733019
He didn't. he's right.
I wouldn't want some superpowered teenagers run free around my house. Ever, and for whatever reasons.
I understand that we can't really lock them up in bars either, but we'd need to find an alternative.

IM > Cap

>>88733416
>ultron is tony's fault
>not wanda's
yeah sure, let's pretend like she's not the cause of every problem since the moment she appears on screen

>>88743240
Kind of a dick move? Tony broke multiple laws, including the Accords, which makes him a hypocrite, which weakens his entire position.

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>>88752928
>let's pretend like she's not the cause of every problem since the moment she appears on screen

I don't have to pretend. She did nothing wrong when she first appeared in TWS. Unless those wooden blocks were something of great import to you.

>>88752928
Wanda just showed him a spooky vision - Tony chose to take the staff and start building Ultron himself. It wasn't mind control like Bucky, he just got super scared and decided to fulfill his ideas of creating an overpowered AI robot with alien tech in secret.

Bruce is guilty too though. He helped and he knew it was a dangerous idea, but went along like a pussy because Tony said so. Didn't even tell the others. And no one gives him shit for that.

>>88739577
>He witnessed his best friend crippled, his "family" broken and imprisoned, and at the heart of this is the man his dad constantly lauded as perfect.

but he caused on those.
he told Vision to shoot.
hes the one who had the other Avengers locked up

>>88753899
>he told Vision to shoot.

Rhodey told Vision to shoot.

>>88753899
During the discussion before the big air port battle, he's close to crying while begging Cap to sign because he obviously doesn't want them to be locked up.

In Tony's mind, he's done all of the hard work for the team, all they need is to sign the accords so they can get back to being friends and bantering at each other.

>>88748498
you don't mess with a guy's mother

>>88748498
I thought that was particularly dark of him. He just watched his father being beat to death, but makes a point of only mentioning his mom.

I guess he knew Howard had it coming in some way.

>>88753844
If I recall, isn't it heavily implied that Ultron comes about from the mind stone itself manipulating everyone into creating it.

>>88735590
I might be more restrained if Captain Fucking America was vouching for him, and I knew he had suffered decades of torture, and also that my Dad was involved in high level military shit that at some point likely caused deaths. I'm certain I wouldn't try to fry or beat him to death.

>>88755036
Tony Stark is selfish he doesn't care about that sort of thing

>>88754900
Well the mind stone in MCU does seem to alter people's minds simply by being near them, as shown in Avengers when everyone started getting pissy at each other while it was glowing behind them.

But Tony also tells Bruce his 'shield around the world' AI is an idea he's fiddled with for some time, and now with the scepter he has the chance to make it come true.

There was also originally a scene written where it's shown Ultron's personality is based from Tony's brain or something, which is why he acts like him in the final movie. So Ultron is a combination of Tony's bad qualities and faulty decision making + implied mind-altering forces that were out of anyone's control.

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>>88754900
>If I recall, isn't it heavily implied that Ultron comes about from the mind stone itself manipulating everyone into creating it.

Yes and no. The Mind Stone has a mind itself (albeit, a blank one), but Ultron didn't directly come from it. More like they tried to copy it. But even then, Stark also added his own synaptic patterns as well. Ultron's resentment to Tony like Tony's resentment to Howard, their shared vocabulary, taste for flare and inability to properly make an omelette. Even Wanda point's out that Ultron's inability to differentiate between saving and destroying the world comes from Stark.

>>88754175
He's an orphan who loses his surrogate family, and then relives the loss of his parents.

What the Avengers needed to do was stick together. In the case of Steve, Tony, Natasha, Wanda, Vision, and indeed T'challa, they need a surrogate family.

Cap kind of admits in his closing monologue that he cared more about Bucky than his team ("the Avengers are yours", then saying how out of place he always felt).

>>88755036
Cap has just been proven to be a liar and hypocrite. He's lectured Tony about trusting each other and not keeping secrets, while keeping a huge one from Tony himself.

The moment Tony snaps is when Cap admits he knew Hydra was involved. From Tony's viewpoint, Cap might be lying about Bucky to protect his friend.

His mom's only crime was being Howard's wife, and it was mainly because Bucky killed her Tony goes apeshit.

>>88755579
>Cap has just been proven to be a liar and hypocrite

>"hey Hawkey if you don't want to be in jail, why don't you just, y'know, not break the law LMAO"
>literally next scene, breaks the law
>"hey CapI kow I'm doing the exact same thing I just locked up all your friends for, but don't tell Ross, k?"

Not to mention the only thing Cap knew about Tony's parents was that one reel Zola showed him claiming Hydra killed Howard. Unless he did independent research into it he wouldn't even know Tony's mom died on that same day.

>>88733019
The Accords don't even make any sense.

The entire history of the MCU shows that the government has been terribly misguided i.e. Ross' actions in the Incredible Hulk or they were actually secret terroists in disguises i.e. AoS and TWS

Even if we disregard this, what was the method of stopping or regulating these "superheroes"? And how would it be implemented?

And the accords were especially made for superhumans acting under GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED AGENCIES. How does this apply to the Avengers who were completely funded by Stark, a PRIVATE CITIZEN, by the end of AoU? They are not acting out the wishes of any government (evidenced by a lot of the members actually fighting against the government plus SHIELD being its own separate entity) so technically it shouldn't even apply to them.

At the least the Civil War Registration act in the comics made more sense in how it was applicable. In fact if Stark didn't mandate certain things it would be the ideal way to function in the world especially since most heroes don't even have secret identtites in Marvel.

>>88755663
But how much of that does the public know?

>>88755663
>Even if we disregard this, what was the method of stopping or regulating these "superheroes"?
So you just want them to do whatever they fucking want because they're "superheroes"?

>>88755648
They're both hypocrites.

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>>88739649

They couldn't.

>>88744898
>which means all Heimdall has to do is not let the nuke in and they win

Not to mention I'm pretty sure Heimdall has enough control over Bifrost that he could just turn the nuke around.

Maybe they'll get Stark to carry the nuke through a portal again
Iron Man 5:Tony's PTSD: Electric boogaloo

>>88755846

Yeah but the point is cap's bar for hypocrisy is lower. He didn't tell pass on to Tony that a Hydra villain said he was involved in Howard's death somehow. He didn't even lie, just didn't tell him. And when he gets called out, he genuinely feels like he didn't live up to his own standards of honesty.

Meanwhile, Tony is perfectly fine with doing the same thing he just threw someone in jail for half an hour ago. And at no point does he even stop to reflect on this at all. It never even occurs to him that he wasn't being fair.

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>>88755648
>Unless he did independent research into it he wouldn't even know Tony's mom died on that same day.

I'm sure Steve saw archives well before the events of TWS that said that Howard and Maria both died 'in a car crash'.

What I would like to know, now that Civil War has been out for a bit, has ANYONE edited IMPRESSIVE into the scene where Spidey catches Winter Soldiers punch, just like in Raimi 1?

>>88755663

The Accords are like the Registration Act, but like most things MCU, they do an awful job explaining it properly.

>>88755663
>And the accords were especially made for superhumans acting under GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED AGENCIES. How does this apply to the Avengers who were completely funded by Stark, a PRIVATE CITIZEN, by the end of AoU?
That's why Tony agrees to have Avengers act under the government though. If they are not obeying any government, they are vigilantes. The idea is that superheroes should still be held accountable for breaking the law like anyone else, a normal private citizen would be arrested for flying down to Afghanistan in his own jet to shoot at terrorists.

>>88755808
No. I'm asking how would you stop a group of skilled and/or powered individuals if they disagree? Would you implement or get more superheroes of you own? Or are we using UN forces to just shoot and kill without question (like what happened with Bucky)? Would they be captured and taken to some hole like Gitmo or be treated like actual people?

I mean the UN throws sanctions and blasts certain leaders all the time and said leaders still do whatever they want without any negative impact to themselves or their agenda for instance.

And what about guys like Hulk or Spider-Man or Thor who are in another weight class compared to other Avengers?

Seems like the powers that be should've sat down and hashed shit out with the Avengers or got someone they trusted like Fury to negotiate terms or something instead of trying to force their hand due to their knee jerk reaction in a lose lose situation.

>>88756128
>a normal private citizen would be arrested for flying down to Afghanistan in his own jet to shoot at terrorists.

Funny enough since that's exactly what Stark does in the first Iron Man film.

>>88756216
As previously established, Tony is a hypocrite.

>>88756275
To be fair that was in the past and he learned from his mistake and then probably forgot which he does in each one of his movies

>>88756128
The Avengers acting for a singular government entity could start up other issues and would probably start up a new arms race, which is exactly a plot point in Ultimates 1 or 2.

They would either need to exist on their own with liasons to the government like the JL in JLU or they would need to operate for the entirety of the UN and only able to act when there's a majority agreement.

>>88756179
Well, MCU UN is not our UN, international community successfully ran SHIELD for decades.

>>88756128
>a normal private citizen would be arrested for flying down to Afghanistan in his own jet to shoot at terrorists

There was a guy who was hunting Bin Ladin with his own personal weapons and he wasn't thrown in jail for it.

Then later, after he came back to the US he was thrown in jail for illegal possession of a firearm.

Just think on that. Firearm ownership laws in the US are harsher than whatever law would apply to this guy hunting Bin Ladin on his own.

>>88756381
>successfully ran SHIELD for decades
>succesfully

if that's what they call a success then anyone in favor of the accords is confirmed retarded

>>88756381
You mean the cabal of mad science Nazis secretly ran SHIELD for decades.

So why did Antman side with Cap in the first place?

>>88756480
>>88756415
But it was ran.

>>88733420
This, a lot of the problems of the movie could have been resolve with them talking

I agree with the accords

Its like having a gun or weapon atleast register yourself

>>88756622
He's a big fan
He's a super liberal (from California, got arrested for trying to stick to the Man, his replacement was a fucking blowhard cop)
He's mentor hates the Starks
He was asked by Falcon who he had an encounter with in his movie (which is one of MCU's best)

>>88756381
The WorlD Council is a separate organization from the UN

>>88756622

He probably wouldn't get to be AntMan anymore if Pym found out he was fighting for Stark

>>88756622
Pym freaks out in Antman because Scott got too close to a hidden Avengers base with Stark's name all over it. He wouldn't allow the suit in the hands of a Stark, with good reason, Tony would very likely try and figure out how it works.

Also Scott is a Cap fanboy.

>>88756654
It's like having a gun or weapon that you have to use whenever against whomever some unknown government body orders you to.

Cap made the right choice in resigning in protest.

> all these statist cucks agreeing with Tony
Smh desu senpai

>>88756654

Stark didn't want to talk though, that's what makes him so wrong. You could have strapped him into a chair and shown him EVERYTHING exactly as it happened, and he would still try to punch Cap the second he was untied.

>>88753435
Wooden Lives Matter, slav whore.

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>>88757294
>I'm sorry I killed your blocks, anon. But I think I know what will make you feel better!

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>>88757441
A qt.

>>88737090
Exactly, lock that shit in a faraday cage

>>88738401

Not EVEN that. She wasn't trying to save herself. She was trying to save the Cap and ALL THE PEOPLE STANDING AROUND THEM.

I can't remember how many died in the building, but I'm almost sure it was far less than what would've died in that heavily populated area they were in.

Wanda absolutely did nothing wrong. It's shit like this is why they end up going crazy.

I've been wondering, what would happen if Hulk actually had some part in Civil War, both comic and movie.

>>88736199
This is too fucking cute

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>>88757294
I wish she would squat more.

>>88757966
I feel like if Hulk were present in the comic version the Hulk Vs. Sentry fight that was at the end of WWH would've happened sooner, and both sides would've been forced to take them both down.

Movie version would have to deal with maybe a Hulk-Buster and Vision. Hulk inevitably going berserk and fighting everyone, ultimately jobbing and then then imprisoned. Events after the bigger airport battle would be the same.

So, did Tony tell Peter anything about the situation that was going on? Or did he simply just say that Steve was insane?

>>88758385

"h's wrong, he thinks he's right, and that makes him dangerous"

If he told Peter all the details that would probably lead to Peter asking if he was allowed to be there under the Accords or something, which would fuck everything up. And I don't think he's get permission from Ross to bring Spider-Man without revealing his identity.

>>88756654
> Steve should have talked to Tony about Bucky and his parents.

> Tony should have talked to Wanda about the house arrest situation, and really those two needed to have a real heartfelt talk.

> The team should have discussed the problems together, finding a common goal.

> Steve and Tony should have both been more resistant to dragging others into the dispute.

>>88756067
The Registration Act that Marvel comics never bothered to draft up, not even as a general sheet to keep their writers on the same page?

>>88758385

Knowing Tony he probably gave Peter some heavily one-sided little snippets of information

>>88733019
Thats the point

>>88748009
>The deaging CGI scene was totally testing the waters for Teen Tony
That would be exceedingly expensive to do for a whole movie.

>>88756622
>be random civilian
>read about how Captain America prevented New York from getting nuked during World War 2
>2012
>aliens start raining down from a big hole in the sky above New York
>suddenly Captain Fucking America jumps right out of a goddamn history book and punches them in the dick
>2014
>hear on the news that Captain America is wanted for assassination and could be armed and dangerous
>3 days later he swoops in out of nowhere, shoves the biggest conspiracy in human history into the spotlight, and prevents the Secretary of Defense from killing 20 million people in one fell swoop
>implying you wouldn't be worshipping him as the one true God at that point

>>88759290

dude

did you copy/paste that from a thread earlier this year?

Because that looks almost exactly like something I typed out once

>>88759354
Yes, it was a good thread.

>>88755975
this this this
>>88756905
>tony
>reverse engineering shrinking tech

for what, making himself even more of a manlet? perfecting his suitcase armor/ wristwatch stun grenade?

>>88757441
Wanda deserves a hug.

>>88739172
They asked Vision to hit Sam's energy source to "turn him into a glider", forcing him to use his wings to glide down back to the ground.
Instead he hit War Machine's energy source, who couldn't exactly glide.

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>>88759461
>for what, making himself even more of a manlet?

>>88759518
He saw Giantman now he wants that Pymtech even more.

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>>88759461
Being able to carry a bunch of tiny Iron Man suits on you at all times is super useful. Becoming Giant Man is super useful.

>>88759166
"Steve thinks that the Earth is flat and that smoking is healthy. He also thinks flared trousers are "kinda cool."

>>88752928
Dormammu is chatting on DimensionBook...

DORMAMMU: Got this Kaecilius guy, he seems like he'll get the job done...He's a real bargain. He's a bit Mads, which is how I like 'em.

SET: Anyone seen my hat? Are you going to be patient this time, Dormy, I mean, you do understand that there's this time shit outside your dark shithole?

DORMAMMU: Time?! Don't talk to me about fucking time! Fuck time's ass all the way back to the Demiurge!

CHTHON: Hey, guys, check out Lagos...Lol bitch gone dun fucked up. "Move stuff with my mind"...It's your emotions, bitch. Try to control that!

DORMAMMU: Chthon, you fucking dickhead, gotta say, you are one cheeky fuck sometimes. Can I has your cauldron? Uma wants it.

SET: I know, she gave me heads all night. LMAO

SHUMA GORATH: WTF?!!! Chthon, bro, I thought we agreed to keep it between us?! You...You can't go handing out our Chaotic mojo to your new Slav waifu...Fuck you...Just...Go fuck yourself with your silly pranks! (Cries)

>>88734981
>>88735206
>>88739951
r63 stark a cute
A CUTE!

>>88760192
>He's a real bargain.

lost it

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>>88742984
>I'm not disagreeing that it should be scrutinized, but she should be given her day in court, not bound into slavery without trial.

You guys DO understand that this is exactly what Tony was trying to prevent by keeping her confined to the Avengers compound, right? He said so himself; she's not an American citizen and is seen as a weapon of mass destruction. She has no real rights as far as those in power are concerned, even if she should, and she hasn't exactly endeared herself to the world in the years past, so nobody's really going to vouch for her but the Avengers themselves, and they're currently under political scrutiny as well.

And what happens when she's arrested? Detainment in a cell block in the middle of the ocean, WORSE what he was saying would happen.

Yeah, Tony was motivated by guilt, but that's only a small factor of the big picture; Tony's biggest motivation is keeping the Avengers together, and he knows that if they don't sign the Accords, they're royally fucked. Steve had a good point, and Tony's views on the Accords may not be considering important factors, but Tony is NOT wrong about the Avengers and their situation; signing the Accords was something that needed to happen, at least for the time being until he could get them amended like he said he'd try to do.

>>88760192
Salutations, Reddit.

>>88760683
Tony's aim was to keep the team together. Guilt was an element but his main aim was to compromise and find ways to keep the team together.

It does feel a little like Steve, subconsciously perhaps, uses his opposition to the Accords as a cover for protecting his last connection to his old life.

The Avengers cannot ignore the Accords, much as they would like to. Either way, the team is weakened, though.

Even in the best case scenario of Tony's path, there is the problem that Wanda cannot sign the Accords while she is under House Arrest. Re-instatement would in fact take a very long-time.

I think the team being split hit Tony much more emotionally than Steve, perhaps contrary to what would be assumed by many people (Steve seems more individualist than Tony at the end).

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>>88755207
>There was also originally a scene written where it's shown Ultron's personality is based from Tony's brain or something, which is why he acts like him in the final movie. So Ultron is a combination of Tony's bad qualities and faulty decision making + implied mind-altering forces that were out of anyone's control.
>>88755287
>But even then, Stark also added his own synaptic patterns as well. Ultron's resentment to Tony like Tony's resentment to Howard, their shared vocabulary, taste for flare and inability to properly make an omelette. Even Wanda point's out that Ultron's inability to differentiate between saving and destroying the world comes from Stark.

This plot point was dropped. It's not a deleted scene with important information, it's an idea that never made it into the final script for some reason. Everything Ultron subconsciously mimics in regards to Tony is pulled from the internet and Jarvis's archives. Ultron's first memories are Jarvis greeting him, and immediately pulling EVERY bit of information on Stark in existence, both public and from Jarvis himself.

His personality isn't based on Stark because he shares his brain patterns; his personality is based on Stark because his very first exposure to the world was a instant cascade of everything there is to know about Tony Stark. He subconsciously mimics Tony because Tony defined his very first seconds of life. It had a side effect of shaping his personality into what we see in the movie.

>>88762258
>I think the team being split hit Tony much more emotionally than Steve, perhaps contrary to what would be assumed by many people
True. MCU Tony has seemingly never had any other real friends than Rhodey, Pepper and his fucking bodyguard. Steve refusing to sign the accords - resulting in half of the team turning against Tony, hit him hard.

>>88759290
There's only one God, maam. And I'm pretty sure He doesn't dress like THAT.

>>88759505

War Machine has HOW many sensors and such in that armor? And he's in a combat situation, giving chase to a fleeing enemy, and he orders Vision to fire while he's between the robot and the wingsuit guy. Rhodey really should have known better and cleared the way.

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>>88759290

Fucking this

BASED CAP 1 TRUE GOD

>>88733019
Cap was right tbqh.

Signing the Accords was completely about Tony's own ego. This is why Tony brings up the dead black kid almost immediately after the scene where Ross shows them the collateral damage from Sokovia. It was about holding everyone responsible, but Tony had to make it about him and his own guilt.

And considering SHIELD was just infiltrated by nazis, it makes no sense why everyone would just put blind faith in the UN to be a govt. super hero fighting force. And even then, the Avengers had the upper hand because as Black Widow pointed out at the end of Winter Soldier, they eventually are going to need the Avengers to save the world from super powered terrorists, magical demons, and alien invaders.

The BEST scenario would have to politely suggest to the Avengers "hey, you guys really do go around into sovereign countries and fuck shit up sometimes, but we appreciate all the work that you do. Any ideas on how we can resolve this issue?"

But no, people had to throw their dick on the table and try to force America's Son into some fascist shit.

>>88759461
>for what, making himself even more of a manlet?
if everyone is a manlet, no one is

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But why didn't Cap break out Hawkguy and bring him to the anti-brainwashing tube too? Everyone knows that Loki tainted him or whatever.

If brainwashing could be undone with the Mind Gem then why didn't Vision to that to begin with?

>>88765259
>anti-brainwashing tube

wat

>If brainwashing could be undone with the Mind Gem

what