Is there anyway to make a hero/superhero who actually kills the

>>88441008
Wolverine?Punisher? Other guys?

>>88441008
Marvel movies did it several times. It's simple just don't have people believe the hero is above killing. Superman and Batman are in a tough place because they have that cliche about them.
Iron Man shot a guy through te chest then made fun of him. He kicked his mentor into an exploding fusion reactor. He threw a nuke at a bunch of zombies. Cap has killed tons of guy in war. Thor has as well. Natasha as well. Hulk presumably killed a few dudes in Brazil and maybe some soldiers. Ant-man killed Cross. The Guardians kill tons of guys. It's not hard but certain heroes have hang ups about them.

Except there was literally nothing Unheroic about killing Zod in Mos. It's tragic that it had to happen but the act of killing 1 life to save billions is still FACTUALLY heroic.

And Cap has killed hundreds of Nazis.

>>88441178
i thought he killed him because otherwise he would have zapped his laser eyes through a family. and supe wasn't strong enough to make him turn away.
although that does call into question why he couldn't just forcibly angle the guy's neck up or something

if it's in the heat of battle where lives are on the line, I say every time.
Now killing AFTER they give up or become unable to fight back, that's when it's unheroic

OP your meme is delusional.
Refusing to make the hard choice when it factually puts hundreds to millions of lives in danger just to keep blood off your hands is negligent and the definition of unheroic.

And in MOS begged Zod not to force his hand.

OP your a lying misleading coward, burn in hell.

>>88441205
Or cover his eyes with his hand.

The only reason to keep villains alive is so they can keep reusing them in comicbooks. You dont have that problem with movies.

>>88441205
Then what? Zod was growing stronger and stronger by the second and he's a military trained professional soldier Supes is nothing but a farmboy from Kansas. What happens if Supes puts him away? No prison can hold him. And whatever people he kills when he eventually escapes is on him. You guys are being shortsighted, this isn't comic canon this is movie canon with a newbie superman who doesn't know shit.

>>88441286
Faora tried that with Clark, she burned her hand.

>>88441205
Saving the family Is FAR from the stake in the situation. If Zod got out of the chokehold then they would have just resumed fighting in the middle of a city putting thousands in danger again and if Zod managed to defeat Superman then the entire world's population is in danger as Zod could kill us all one by one by hand.

>>88441286
His hand would likely burn away before Zod could turn off the beam even if he wanted to.
And if his hand was strong enough to not burn away it would possibly deflect the blast all across the room possibly hitting other people.

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I actually liked the idea of Supe's being forced to stoop to his level to save people. It could make for good drama.

It's everything else that was dumb from why take so long to decide to kill him when all of Metropolis was in ashes already by now to everything about Pa Kent.

>>88441008
Do you seriously think killing Zod before his eye beams incinerated a family makes that version of Superman not-a-hero?

>>88441008
Sure, by having him kill a faggot megalomaniac dousche like zod.
If I lived in the snyderverse I'd probably have a few superman T shirts.

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>>88441239
NOOO OPTIMUS!

>>88441289
>No prison can hold him
ITT people who never read comics bitch about how movies are different than comics.

>>88441400
>from why take so long to decide to kill him when all of Metropolis was in ashes already
Metropolis was in ashes before the fight started.
Even if he had choose to kill Zod earlier he didn't have anyway to do it before the choke hold.

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>>88441400
The movie makes much more sense if you think that Pa Kent was Darkseid in disguise.

>>88441008
>Hero:
>a being of godlike prowess and beneficence who often came to be honored as a divinity.
>(in the Homeric period) a warrior-chieftain of special strength, courage, or ability.
>(in later antiquity) an immortal being; demigod.
>the bread or roll used in making a hero sandwich.
If you stop bad shit (that youdidn't direcly cause) from happening, you are a hero.

There was literally nothing wrong with Supes killing Zod in Man of Steel. In fact, he should've done it sooner so there would've been way less casualties and property damage. Honestly, I think heroes like Batman not killing literal mass murderers is way more reprehensible.

The movie still suck tbqh.

>>88441500
How??????????????????????
Teaching Clark that sometimes the needs of the many outway the needs of the few doesn't make him evil you worthless piece of shit.

>>88441008
What a silly pic.

What Superman SHOULD have done was taken away Zod's powers, rendering him completely defenseless. Then he should have crushed his hand and threw him off a cliff while smiling.

>>88441008
Should've just grabbed Zod's nuts and crushed them.

Alternatively put a finger in his rectum.

>>88441508
>been way less casualties and property damage.
Not really only 1 building and most of a parking garage fully fell during their one on one fight.

>>88441477
Way to completely disregard everything else I said in my post dumbass.

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Be Japanese.

I think it's good that MoS and BvS exists, I see more people talking about "muh Superman" nowadays and I'm quite happy to see that people want Superman to be the man who can do no wrong, the hero that always finds a way.

>>88441516
>"Take away zod's powers"
Fucking HOW? What sort of insane silver age psychic pulled from ass bullshit would he use for this feat?

>>88441008
>The superman you know and love
the superman i love and know killed zod and his henchmen using kryptonite.

>>88441547
Everything else didn't matter, pointis he only JUST got out of the phantom zone, into Belle Reeve. You know nothing of the DCU penal system.

>>88441508
I like Batman. But the thing with him not killing the Joker is beyond retarded by now.

I like to imagine him in purgatory standing before thousands and thousands of murdered souls, explaining that they're dead because he is too good to kill a psychopath.

And why? It's not like he had Pa Kent or Uncle Ben to ram that kind of bullshit into his head.

Didn't Snyder say that killing Zod was supposed to be the reason why Superman doesn't kill?

Like how not killing without a solid reason was not good enough so he wanted supes to know what killing feels like.

>>88441508
Completely agree. My only gripe with the killing was that Clark didn't try to to reason with him, he just started punching the shit out of him and eventually broke his neck. THE LEFT HIS BODY AND SHIP TO BE TAKEN BY LEXCORP AFTER SPENDING THE ENTIRE FIRST HALF OF THE MOVIE SAYING HUMANITY WASN'T READY FOR HIM, THESE IDIOTS ARE FOCUSING ON THE WRONG FUCKING NIT TO PICK.

>>88441287
This is your correct answer, folks.

What started out as comic code stuff to not show children a hero killing (even justified) got turned culturally into "you're no better than them!" or some other such nonsense.

I'm old enough to remember having seen Star Wars on its initial release, as a kid, and I was indeed shocked Han flat-out killed Greedo to stop Greedo from capturing him. It's this sense to children that caused the change.

(DESU, Dorthy's giant egg timer running out while the Tin Man chopped through the door stressed me out a hell of a lot more. Adults don't realize the impact stuff has on emotional newbies.)

"Grimdark" is about serving up a little more stress to now-adults. But writing Superman that way is just failure on the imagination of writers -- your job, you have one god damned job, is to figure out how Superman CAN save the day without killing.

>>88441514
He literally told Clark he should have let a busload of children drown just in case someone found out a secret.

I liked Man of Steel, but Kevin Costner's Pa Kent was a weird cunt.

Zod was 100% justified.

Lets skip to the dictator since someone will inevitably bring it up.
In my book, we didn't see a body and Clark states "I didn't kill those men" so he isn't dead.

But for the sake of argument let say he is.
What else could he have done...

>> Heated up the gun?
Unclear if his beams are that precise at that distance.
Could have caused the ammo to go off.
Could have caused the Dictator to panic and fire.

>> Speed forced over and grabbed it?
His speed isn't subtle, it contains alot of impacting force hence him telling Lois to stand back when he took flight in Mos, he could have harmed Lois or shook the dictator's hand into pulling the trigger.

>>88441600
Batman is just a troubled, highly skilled and rich person.

He doesn't kill because he sees everyone as mom and dad, even the Joker.

>>88441514
Everything that went wrong on Clark's life, including his shitty reception as Superman, lack of any friends and autism, or the fact that he revealed himself so late in life, can be traced to Pa Kent scaring him off.

More like Man of MURDER

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>>88441008
MCU.

But then again, most of them were always killers.Just read Iron Man's origin story where he blows up an entire village filled with the Vietcongs that imprisoned him.

>>88441615
After Zod activated the Black Zero and after he stated "I am going to kill them all one by one" out of spite, reasoning was far FAR past being a option dude.

>>88441631
>He doesn't kill because he sees everyone as mom and dad, even the Joker.
That doesn't pass the smell test. We need someone else try to explain this bullshit.

>>88441631
>>88441600


He is from a catholic family, he got educated in asia and his dad was a doctor.

For him EVERY life is sacred, it's not just trauma

>>88441514
>??????????????????????
>outway
>can't into commas
Shouldn't you be at school or something?

>>88441627
NO HE DID NOT.
It was not a serious recommendation, he spit it out in desperation to get his point across, he looks like he was gonna puke as he said it.
Said secret could cause social upheavals across the world that could cause mass deaths.
Genocides have happened over lesser things then a godly powerful being being known to exist that basically proves all religions wrong.

>>88441596
>"this isn't comic canon this is movie canon with a newbie superman who doesn't know shit."

What the fuck does it say right there aspie? Learn some reading comprehension before you talk out your ass.

At that point in time Clark DOESN'T KNOW SHIT, he's got a guy who'll eventually become as powerful as him, with military training, who's been wooping his ass across the city, who's just sworn to eliminate every human and is about to barbecue some people. He just used his only means of creating a phantom zone, Belle Reve hasn't been created yet and the only way they're able to contain their most powerful pyrokinetic is because he doesn't WANT to escape. Maybe you should pay more than superficial attention to the DCCU.

>>88441685
>he got educated in asia
What's that go to do with it?

>>88441627
>literally


No, he said that he doesnt have the answers, and that clark needs to understand that he coming out will change the world forever.

Nothing wrong with what he said

>>88441638
Justifiably so.
He was a immature brat up until Pa's Death so he wasn't ready to be a hero.
A shitty reception was going to happen no matter what in this realistic paranoid world.

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>>88441008
Yes

For the last fucking time, it's not their job. If Green Goblin needs to die, put him on trial and execute the fucking guy. Superheroes are not qualified to make the decision on who gets to live and who dies.

>>88441629
The thing is, when a lot of fans go to see a superman movie, they don't want to see how themselves, or anyone else would have managed the situation, they want to see how Supes, the parangon of doing things right, manages it, without steping down to the bad guy's level, that's why so many peoplefelt betrayed, becasuethey see that instead of coming up with something he went fuck it and killed Zod.

>>88441693
The fuck are you even talking about.

This shit didn't even happened with him revealing himself, and following Pa Kent advices fucked things over way more in retrospect. Instead of an earlier Superman making his debut on his own terms, we got the Zod incident and a psichologicaly demaged Clark.

>>88441448
Fuck sentinel he got what he deserved

Movie prime best prime

>>88441668
Batman, for his love of costumed theatrics, believes in the SYSTEM of justice. He doesn't believe ANYONE should be judge, jury, AND executioner. If someone is going to die, they should die at the decision of the State after being declared guilty by a jury of their peers.

>>88441741
In the movies defense, he didn't say "fuck it" nor took the killing non-chalantly.

>>88441008

Don't make a big deal out of it and you're fine.

MoS's big problem wasn't that Superman killed, it's that they had to have Zod threaten a picturesque nuclear family who couldn't move five feet to get out of the way and then spent the whole rest of the movie brooding over it.

If Iron Man kills the bad guy it's basically job done, go home. Captain America is a boyscout type but nobody complains when he takes a gun and kills eight people in ten minutes. That's because the films don't dwell on the idea that for some reason a hero has no right to kill someone trying to kill people.

Especially since Superman was kind of flippant before that. Making out with Lois when the dust literally hadn't settled and there could still be people dying in the ruins of Metropolis was in bad taste. You could say there's some in universe explanation for it but the fact is the image simply doesn't look good. For Superman to literally try to get his dick wet at ground zero, then whip around and make that kind of call, and have the call be given such weight, is a complete tonal 180.

>>88441741
Nonsense, I want to see Superman being as flawed and terrible as me. I don't want heroes to be heroic, I want them to be Marvel heroes.

>>88441740
What if they can't be held for trial?
What if they can kill the entire human race by hand and a nuclear bomb can't stop them?

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I don't even mind that he killed Zod, I mind that he did in a dumb manner that could have killed the very people he was trying to save.
>Zod tries to kill people to our right with his heat vision
>how do I stop that?
>better snap his neck towards the right, no chance this would cause his literally light-fast laser vision to roast those people

>>88441711
Buddhism and mostly Taoism related adoctrination, most of his masters were pretty much all about protecting life and the innocent.

>>88441693
Yeah he did.

"I just wanted to help"

"I know you did, but we talked about this, you have to keep this part of yourself a secret"

"What was I supposed to do? Let them die?"

"Maybe".

And it was framed in a sit-down talk of how he should behave in future. It was awful, awful, awful parental advice to an obviously good kid.

>>88441703
>Readig comprehension
Says the retard who just changed the subject from Zod to Superman
Im not even finishing reading your retardogram because you're too stupid to bother with, even for Anon.

>>88441720
Multiple comics do a better job with it, without Pa Kent destroying Clark's life, Morrison's Superman for example. MOS execution was just shit and because of that, badly received.

>>88441792

You are a retard if that's whatyou got from the escene.

>>88441764
>This shit didn't even happened
It doesn't matter if it happens for real or not, the fear and consideration of the possibility is still valid and to not consider it is naive if not flat out negligent.

And THAT IS THE POINT, to give us a flawed unprepared Superman.

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>>88441500
holy shit

>>88441792

Pa was conflicted as fuck during that scene.

>>88441766
this, writers that get Batman realize he works to create a city that can work by itself and where the system works
only hacks think he wants a "there will always be a Batman" scenario

>>88441008
No.
>>88441083
Not heroes.

>>88441801

Pa Kent in the golden age told Superman to not use his super-powers to help people until he was old. MoS took it from that.

>>88441773
>Making out with Lois when the dust literally hadn't settled and there could still be people dying in the ruins of Metropolis was in bad taste.
No it wasn't, they just nearly died in a black hole, you saw the atoms peeling off his face. They were kissing out of a need for comfort and stability not out of romance, they where literally shaking as they embraced.

>>88441803
You're a retard if you think a Pa Kent who wasn't a weird cunt would have ever said that.

>>88441008
Batman Begins ending was perfect in that regard

So.. old Sups just would let whole planet die?

>>88441097
The Marvel movie "heroes" aren't even heroes. They're bad guys who happen to work for our team. The Suicide Squad were better heroes than them.

>>88441792
His next words after "mabye" was...
"Look Clark, there is more at stake then our lives or the lives of those around us"

>>88441287
>>88441625
Then why did certain heroes stop killing before the comics code existed?

>>88441805
>It doesn't matter if it happens for real or not,

Matters because Pa Kent killed himself for nothing them, and every development on MOS was basically taking Clark to his pre-emotionaly scared self - when he saved kids because it was the right thing.

>And THAT IS THE POINT, to give us a flawed unprepared Superman.

There are actually good stories with this, fucking Landis has a better take on this. The fact that people mention Hancock as a major inspiration for these movies tell a lot.

>>88441811
Yes he was. But when Clark flat out said "what was I supposed to do, let them die", with them being a bus full of his entire school class, the correct response would be a long pause, some oscar-worthy facial expressions of inner-struggle and then "No, no of course not son..."

>>88441838

That's the thing, it doesn't fucking matter.

Superman is supposed to save people first and make out with Lois second. For him to just jump straight into the makeout doesn't look good. That scene is probably the most consistently harped on from the whole film besides the neck snapping.

Especially since their emotional situation holds no weight. This is Superman and Lois Lane. She gets threatened and shot at regularly and he's literally the unflappable man of steel. The idea that while the crisis is still going on and people are still dying they're entitled to a personal break, and GET IT, before going off to fight the guy while floating on his belly, is ridiculous.

>>88441882

>the correct response would be a long pause, some oscar-worthy facial expressions of inner-struggle and then "No, no of course not son..."

But he wanted Clark to understand that he couldn't keep going around using his powers. That if he outed himself as a young kid he'd place in jeopardy his future as Earth's savior. That he should hide his powers until he was ready to properly use them. That Smallville was just a city, while the world as a whole needs more.

>>88441880
>fucking Landis has a better take on this.
BULL FUCKING SHIT!
Both American Alien & Earth One make him a selfish uncaring piece of shit, In Mos he GENUINELY wants to help people but holds back because helping them pubically could cause MORE harm.

>>88441732
Pretty harsh, Optimus.

>>88441795
You're an idiot and you don't even know it, that's sad.

>>88441852
No, he would have bested Zod from years of training with the Legion of Super-heroes and various adventures as Superboy, a huge advantage that this version didn't have. Retards just think that as soon as Superman gets his powers he has complete control of them.

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>>88441178

when i first saw Man of Steel my mom was like, why didn't he snap Zod's neck to begin with.

and no i'm not kidding.

>>88441871
Yeah... like busloads of children?

>>88441008
What would superman say about war heroes, who are heroes because they killed the most

I bet superman would have a right little patriotic boner for war heroes, the hypocrite

>>88441828
Not really, he said to use when the situation calls for it, on the "right time". Stop using reddit images without context.

>>88441083
>Wolverine
>implying mutants can ever be heroes in the eyes of the public
At best, they're completely right about someone else being a worse villain, and half the time it's another mutant.

>>88441795
Anon, go back. reread this>>88441289 carefully.

>>88441880

Superman's origin story, when he's raw and flawed and unprepared, is literally the most common and rote-ass thing you can do with the character at this point. It got like 50 seasons on the WB. It got a cartoon on kids WB. It got it's own mini series in the silver age. It was the first thing they did post crisis. It was the first thing they did New 52 and did it twice at once.

Trying to excuse Man of Steel as an origin story, as if this somehow isn't what we've been getting for decades more often than regular Superman adventures(we haven't gotten one of those on TV since Lois and Clark for example), is fucking stupid.

>>88441950

Superman just don't want to have a guilty conscious. He'd let people die if that means he can keep a good night of sleep.

>>88441944
That's hilarious. Wasn't she paying attention, though? Zod was winning the whole fight.

>>88441923

That's great for you to say now, but nowhere is that stated in the film.

>>88441956

Which means when he's old. Golden age Superman only donned his suit as a grown up man.

And yet no complains about Superman destroying a ship which only purpose was to make kryptonian babies while declaring that an entire civilization had its chance.

>>88441991

It's implied throughout the movie, specially at the end scene.

>>88441501

In the final Superman comic, he folds himself around fine corned beef and vegetables and allows the children of the world to consume him. Thereby fulfilling the full prophecy.

>>88441178
>act of killing 1 life to save billions is still FACTUALLY heroic.
No, the act of killing 1 guilty person to save billions is heroic. If he were innocent, then that would be villainous.

It's like the trolley problem where you could push the guy who started the trolley going in order to kill people. Pushing him isn't considered wrong to save the people because he was the one who was trying to kill them in the first place.

>>88442002
Absolutely because 7-9 billion living lives trumps non living lives. Period.

Literally all the Marvel films have them kill their villain

>>88442002

Krypton had a toxic culture and their civilization had to go. Jor-El agreed that his people deserved to be wiped out. It was the right thing to do. Fuck Krypton and everything it stands for.

>>88441008
If it's literally anyone but Superman, Spider-Man or Batman, really. I think that those 3 are the only ones who actually have the 'we don't kill' label attached in the general public eye.

>>88441978

If he was SUPERman, he'd do both. He'd trick Zod into blasting away all his powers through heat vision into the atmosphere and subdue him then. Or he'd get Zod to the bottom of the ocean and keep him pinned with ocean pressure. Or he'd throw him into some kind of Star Labs fusion reactor. He'd beat him in a way that was visually interesting but not kill him.

>>88442015
the end scene that directly contradicts the themes of nature vs. nurture?

>>88441008
So the trunks really make a differce? Is that where Superman keeps his no kill rule?

>>88442030
Dormammu and Zemo are still alive

>>88441205
>although that does call into question why he couldn't just forcibly angle the guy's neck up or something
Because what do you do then? The Phantom Zone projector is gone, there's no prison on Earth that can hold him, and Zod gave an explicit confirmation that he would NEVER stop destroying the Earth.

Personally, the film frames it like suicide by cop to me. Zod has nothing to live for, so forces Superman to kill him because he knows that Clark doesn't want to hurt anyone.

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>>88441928
Nah, Landis has a better and more realistic child and young Clark than MOS, as well as Morrison and Birthright. Pa Kent is also miles better, he overcoming his fear and embracing Clark after he lost control over his heat vision is much more of a powerful and poignant scene than telling your son that maybe some children should die or suicide by tornado.

>>88442049

The end scene that shows Pa Kent seeing Clark's bright future.

And the movie's theme wasn't nature vs nurture, but rather the importance of the traditional family unit and how without it society decays.

>>88442067
And the Avengers themselves didn't kill Strucker.
(fuck ultron & fuck whedon)

>>88442039

>He'd beat him in a way that was visually interesting but not kill him.

Yes, because Superman only cares about his own conscious. He'll try anything so that he won't have to dirty his hands while people die around. Fuck other people, what matters the most is his mental health.

>>88441992
>Which means when he's old.

No, this is just your headcanon.

>>88442108

No, it isn't. Or else the comic would show teenage Superman using his powers.

Snyder just didn't place enough of an effort into making people empathize with Clark throughout the movie so that people feel for him as opposed to against him when he kills Zod

>>88442125
Superboy debuted in 1945

>>88442076
Now... do you think a kid who would let his entire class die to keep something about himself secret would really grow up to be Earth's saviour?

The thing I always found hysterical about the neck snapping scene was the idea that Zod's eye lasers were mapped to where his head was pointing instead of where his eyes were pointing.

>>88442072
>Personally, the film frames it like suicide by cop to me. Zod has nothing to live for, so forces Superman to kill him because he knows that Clark doesn't want to hurt anyone.

Fucking this

>>88442142

Which didn't fit with the original comics, thus Superboy was retconned into being Silver age Superman.

>>88441814
>>88441766
Basically, Batman lets himself be the 'bad cop', so that Gotham City's legal services have to clean up and become the 'good cop'.

>>88442157
Yes. I can't remember his actual lines but didn't he pretty much state that he was going to force him to kill him just to fuck him up?

>>88441780
Even bigger reason, who says Earth has the right to execute galactic threats? Maybe the human race will be put on trail for murdering a deity.

>>88442125
Not necessarily.

Pretty sure that "when the situation calls for it" includes "bus full of children that might die", Golden age Superman cared about people and Superboy was intriduced into his continuity not long after in 1945.

>>88442144

Maybe...

>>88441600
The thing about Batman isn't that he believes himself to be "too good" to kill monstrous people.
It's that he doesn't think he's good enough to stop himself from sliding down the slippery slope if he started.

>>88442196
Nope, pretty sure this is how you raise a villain.

And not even a super villain. Like, a C-grade villain.

>>88442195

>Golden age Superman cared about people and Superboy was intriduced into his continuity not long after in 1945.

The original golden age Superman comics had Superman showing up as a man. Only later that the Superbaby and Superboy stories were produced in Adventure Comics. Those stories later, because they didn't really fit golden age Superman early stories, were retconned as being silver age Superman's stories.

>>88442201
God it would be a fun ride though

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Have them fight Aliens that don't look like humans

Kill thousands of invading parademons and everyone will cheer for you

>>88442125
The comics never show him in his early years having to face similar situations, so your argument is meanless.

>>88442186
>There's only one way this ends, Kal. You die, or I do.
And even then, Clark refuses to kill Zod. His own life being on the line isn't enough for him to consider killing. It's only when he realizes that Zod will never stop killing the people of the world he's come to call home that he will finally, painfully take that choice.

I understand why people dislike Man of Steel. I understand why people might dislike the writing that led to the scene of Clark killing. But sentiments like those expressed in this comic >>88441008 are simply disingenuous.

>>88442299

Because Earth-2 Superman only debuted as a grown man. My argument stands.

>>88442307

Specially when Richard Donner's Superman killed Zod and his crew.

>>88442312
No, because for what we know, he never had to face a bus full of children ready to die, unlike on MOS. My argument stands.

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Question
Is it pronounced Dark-seed or Dark-side?
I legitimately don't know, since Americans often seem to have trouble deciding how to say that syllable.

>>88442337
Not only that, killed them with a heroic music swell.

Of course, in Donner's original cut they get led away to prison, if I remember. That movie has a fair few different cuts so I get them mixed up sometimes.

If I'm being honest, my perfect Superman film would strike a balance between the first Donner film and Man of Steel.

>>88442362
Dark-side

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>>88442186
Yes

- "I'm going to make them suffer you've adopted, i will take them all from you one by one. There's only one way this ends, Kal. Either you die... or i do."

And then

- "If you love these people so much... you can mourn for them"
- "Don't do this! Stop!
- ..

Pefrect film

>>88441740

How would you execute Doomsday anon?

>>88442337
People will forgive a hero they already know and love

Same reason why they find Superman going back to punch those assholes in the diner charming.

>>88441932
indeed, Bayverse Prime has always been on the brutal side but most of his kills are hard to object to, a vast swath of Decepticons who endanger human life, Megatron, a remorseless tyrant, his former mentor, who joined with him with intent to enslave humanity, the fallen, basically transformers Lucifer, and his first explicit human kill was basically a decepticon in human skin

>>88442397
He isn't setient.

>>88442086
ehh I didn't hate Ultron but it was a downgrade from the first Avengers flic

>>88442397
the only good way to do Doomsday is to forget Doomsday ever existed and pick a different villain

>>88441932
Sentinel killed Ironhide pretty much in the same way, Optimus was just following his mentor's steps

>>88442419
>>88442430

Okay, how would you execute Darkseid anon?

>>88442384
Wait... what?

>>88442480
Nigga can't be killed for good.

>>88441008
Yes. It's called EVERY HERO IN EVERY OTHER MEDIUM EVER.

STOP BEING SUCH A FAGGOT PANSY.

>>88442075
>Who needs normal?
They why should he cares about the "normals"? This just sounds like a pompous artist.

>Landis
Oh, right.

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>>88442480
with a gun to kill a god, a god of death lured there, and singing

duh

You could actually turn Spock's "the needs of the many" speech into a good villain-offing speech.

>>88442520
I really think that you got the wrong interpretation there, /tv/friend.

>>88442484
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oszwO4x2Y0

>>88442570
NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

That's so lame. In my head he will remain the Dark seed.

>>88441828
>>88441956
Birthright Superman donned the costume at an older age and Pa Kent was hesitant about it. Considering Snyder took a lot from Birthright, I'd bet that's what he was referring to.

Any superhero that was in the military prior to getting powers basically gets a free pass from writers when it comes to this stuff.

Captain America was a soldier in World War 2. Yeah, he killed plenty of Nazis and dosent feel bad about putting bad men down.

Hal Jordan was a military test pilot, and it helps he mostly deals with aliens who aren't even REAL people in the first place.

>>88442520
>his phrasing isn't pitch perfect
>after he's advising his son after a traumatic event

This is what I don't get.
I understand that people want Pa Kent to be a good role-model for Clark, but the character gets fetishized into someone who people expect to be perfect 100% of the time and do no wrong.

The point of the character is that he's just an average American father who's in way over his head but has a strong enough moral center that Clark is still raised well. I think that him not speaking in a perfect way, covering all possibilities, works far better than framing him as a motivational speaker.

>>88442605
Birthright Superman was younger than thirty-three and active in the world before donning it. The costume was a compromise.

You're not gonna like hearing this but Clark waits until he's thirty-three in Man of Steel because that's how old Jesus was when he exited the wilderness in the bible.

>>88442597
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToT9-DOUshY

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>>88441008
>Is there anyway to make a hero/superhero who actually kills the villain, but is still viewed as a hero?
simple, make the killing not that dramatic. it works for mario, zelda, luke skywalker...

I'd rather have them kill than come up with retarded excuses like they do with Batman.

>lol all life is sacred!
>lol I am just crazy duuuude!
>lol I don't have the guts!

even worse when they have him save the villains

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>>88441178
>this mopey asshole
>factually heroic
lel

>>88441289
>what is the phantom zone
They could have just had a better written Superman story that didn't call for killing to be the ultimate answer.
Or they could have shown how bad the killing really fucked him up. Instead of removing all weight and emotion from the scenario by having him kiss the woman that he barely knew at that point.

>>88442665
>thirty-three

I don't think the age really matters in this case, it's more the sentiment of waiting to don the costume while going around helping people that was kept from the comic.

>>88441008
Make it D*sney. That way no paid shills will appear to shitpost the scene to death.

>>88442649
The problem is that you use the result as evidence of something that isn't there. "Clark grows up to be Superman so he must have gotten that moral grounding and had a good well adjusted childhood". That we don't need to see the process because we see the final product.

But that doesn't follow as much as you insist it does. Especially when a perfectly viable alternative and commonly made but never truly addressed counter argument is "The movie is poorly written and Clark does things because the plot needs him to in that exact moment".

I think you're misinterpreting the complaints. The problem isn't the theory of having more flawed """"realistic""" versions of the characters, but rather that the execution and character progressions were inorganic and many find it unbelievable, especially when they're asked to fill in the gaps that Snyder found unimportant to cover.

Smallville had a similar Jonathan Kent to Man of Steel but you don't see the complaints levied against him because we got more of a character progression and better development.

>>88442708
>tfw when they make needless destruction a part of superman traits like he's an overpowered anime character
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L48IkFF5BhM

>>88442707
The thing is, if a heroic character kills or not shouldn't be an issue of 'do we think the audience would like them to kill', it should come from their character motivations.

'All life is sacred' can be a good excuse, depending on the character.

Were I personally writing a Batman story from scratch, I'd have the reasoning be two-fold.
1. Like in Batman: TAS, it keeps the police force in Gotham tolerant of his activities.
2. Because directly witnessing death at such a young age gave him a complex around never being what killed his parents. He's a stubborn character, it makes sense that a character as stubborn as him would refuse to budge on his principles.

>>88442768
this

>>88442597
I think Dark-side works fine.

Granted maybe I'm not allowed to say anything, since I thought Thanos was pronounced "Thaynos".

Yes I know it's based off Thanatos but going with the same pronunciation just seemed way too heavy handed for it to be correct!

>>88442768
>it's only the disney shills that criticize this scene
Snyder Defense force is as delusional as they are stupid.

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>>88442700

>>88442735
It's hard for me to believe it's a coincidence when the other ages match up (thirteen when his purpose is questioned, a decade in the wilderness, dies a couple years after his great mission starts) and more importantly, when WB literally says "look at this parallel" to market the movie.

The whole "he's REALLY not meant to be Jesus" argument falls apart in the face of the studio themselves is hiring pastors to write Sermons likening Superman to Christ with the express goal of saying "he's meant to be Jesus. Have your church group book a bus because we want that Passion money",

>>88442788
I'm talking more about the American Alien panels than the movie there.

That being said, I will agree that the movie is flawed in it's portrayal of Jonathan. There are good scenes with him in; the scene where he talks to Clark after he gets bullied, and hell, the scene right after 'maybe' where he shows Clark the ship. 'You ARE my son' is a fantastic exchange.

I don't think that Snyder didn't cover the gaps, but I can appreciate that some of the character elements that he added to John DID distract some viewers so much that any later development in John's character is much harder to appreciate. And I say this as someone who likes the film; I do think it's very flawed and I can understand why Snyder's creative choices really turn some people off.

I don't understand why, iIf you frame the act of the villain dying as a tragedy, are you then going to get mad when people act as if the death of the villain was a bad thing?

If you weren't so paranoid about quips you'd realize that stuff like the Bond one liner is expressly there as a genre convention to prevent this discussion in the first place.

>>88442865
You misinterpret what I meant. I meant that the age doesn't matter in that he's taking ideas from Birthright and changing the ages up to suit his own needs.

>>88441008
Have it take place in Marvel
Zombies/vampires/assorted undead
Mercy kill

>>88442799
problem is that Batman is usually a more pragmatic character

someone like that would agree with killing someone for the greater good, or hire someone to kill the guy or let someone else kill

>>88442955
>problem is that Batman is usually a more pragmatic character

Yes, that's the tension in his character, though. Part of him wishes to be pragmatic, wishes he could just kill to clean up the city, but there is something fundamental within him that he has carried from childhood onward that doesn't allow him to kill, or let people die, even when he knows it would be for the greater good.

Tension between character goals is the root of a lot of great character drama.

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>>88442805
>just seemed way too heavy handed
Anon.
This is a comics board.

>>88442391
You forgot.
"I think he's kinda hot xD"
To your list of memorable quotes from a perfect film.

>>88442867
My issue is less with Jonathan and more that, despite having seen the movie twice, I can't think of a single unmitigatingly happy scene of Clark as a child. I like the "make it small" scene but that's kind of stymied by the fact that it's precluded and made necessary by his freak out which just reminds me how much he was tormented by his peers, and the context-less "running around with a cape because his genetics tells him to" bit of montage in the denouement that has no real emotional weight to it beyond its color theory.

And I'm sure someone is going to go "why does this matter" but come on man. Clark having a happy social childhood is what sets him apart from most capes and helps inform his decisions as an adult. When even *Magneto* is shown having more happy childhood memories than Superman, something's kind of off. It makes it unelievable thath e's grow up to have as much empathy as he does when the overhwemling majority of what we see of him before he even puts on the costume is a bullied and abused alienated kid that's spent the first three decades of his life with no friends before watching his dad die and then going off to wander the earth as a literal vagrant for a decade. Combined with the "realistic" framing of all these events it makes me wonder why he didn't end up a serial killer or something, much less where this endless font of good will and empathy comes from.

Jonathan is ultimately a symbol for that greater issue wrapped up into one package.

>>88442912
That's just it. I think that while you can make the case that he's drawing from Birthright, there is equal if not more evidence to support that the whole "wandering the earth" portion of the movie is actually being drawn from the bible instead of a Superman comic and it's really just a happy coincidence that the two overlap in such a way.

And because of that the age does matter as its one of those things that tilts the scale one way or the other.

>>88441008
Take off their spandex and/or cape.

People who are viewed as heroes kill people all the time, in both reality (cops, veterans, presidents) and every other fictional medium other than cape comics.

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>>88441008
ta daa

>>88443091
You can interpret it that way, sure. Personally I find there to be more evidence supporting my claim though due to certain imagery and other plot points taken from the Birthright comic, but I can respect your opinion. Maybe I'm wrong.

>>88443115
Thank god someone on humanity's side didn't make him angry first.

>>88443123
I'm curious as to what that is because the conclusions drawn from Birthright from its sequence are almost diametrically and thematically opposite to those of Man of Steel's.

Birthright's Clark travels and learns from the people of the world and connects with them on a personal level. They inform his worldview, and we're given a prolonged example of one such connection. Man of Steel's doesn't have any connections until Lois, instead wandering around until he can find a way to control the raging spirit that dwells within him.

>>88443057
I can appreciate that. Though I still enjoy the film and thinks it works as a Superman story, I can see why tonally, it just doesn't click for you.

The problem with Zod's death is that Superman cries like a bitch afterword even though the movie never shows him as averse to violence.
Defeating the bad guy should feel like a victory. And for some reason it's this gloomy fuckin' tragedy even though Zod definitely deserved it.

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The OP was a faggot. But the thread was enjoyable. I still like Man of Steel and think Pa Kent was a weirdo. And Amy Adams is cute. Cuuuuute.

.
.
.

And it's Dark-seed.

G'night /co/.

>>88441625
This.
The failure lies not in him making an inevitable choice, but in forcing that choice on him.
The problem is that Superman is in a film that has a tone and structure that culminate in this event.

>>88441554
This, you never see people complain about Kamen Rider exploding everyone just by kicking them.

>>88443451
>structure that culminates in this event
It totally doesn't though. General Zod's death comes completely out of left field and there is no genuine set up for it at all.

>>88441008
Almost ALL the X-Men have killed someone, especially during the whole Messiah Complex thing.

Captain America has killed his villains, often.

Iron Man has killed his villains.

Every single hero of antiquity killed dudes. Most action film heroes kill people. Almost all the heroes of LotR and various other fantasy properties kill people.

It's not hard. Just don't make the situation in which they have to kill people contrived and stupid. And especially don't do that if they're exactly the kind of hero that always finds a way, like Spider-Man or Superman.

>>88441008
...Every single 80s action movie hero[ine]?

>>88442649
Reminder that it was a stress induced hallucination that Clark was speaking to, not his real dad.

>>88442788
>I think you're misinterpreting the complaints. The problem isn't the theory of having more flawed """"realistic""" versions of the characters, but rather that the execution and character progressions were inorganic and many find it unbelievable, especially when they're asked to fill in the gaps that Snyder found unimportant to cover.

This.

Another real problem created by this is that there's no real payoff to anything. Nothing feels earned, it feels like just going through the obligatory steps.

Small example: How did Clark know to try and fly outside the Fortress of Solitude? We never see him have an inkling of this beforehand. We never see him wake up floating, or feel like he's flying for a moment when he jumps. There's no buildup, there's just that one moment, where Clark just arbitrarily decides he should be able to fly because Snyder wants a flying scene.

NOTHING in MoS is fleshed out and progressed properly. It's just a series of flashy moments that Snyder really really wanted to shoot. There's no regard for how anything fits together as a narrative.

>>88443790
>NOTHING in MoS is fleshed out and progressed properly. It's just a series of flashy moments that Snyder really really wanted to shoot. There's no regard for how anything fits together as a narrative.
This is the same problem with BvS.

"You can't fight fate" is never going to be a satisfying ending, much less a heroic one and that's ultimately what Clark killing Zod boils down to. The character himself doesn't even want to do it but fate (the director) wants it to happen so it has to. Even if reality and basic logic have to bend over backwards to force it. So maybe less railroading next time and there won't be an issue.

>>88441928
Comparing American Alien to Earth One just shows that you didn't actually read American Alien past...what, the little kid issue? Maybe the one on Bruce's yacht?

>>88441859
>Marvel movie "heros" aren't heros
You stupid nigger

>>88441008
Why did Supes snap his neck in the direction of the family?

Fucking stupid.

>>88441563

>Casual Fag detected.

>>88443356
>Sied
>Si-ed
>Seed
Its not like WEST SIYEEED BOI, it's Darksied no matter how hard they try to retcon a typo.

>>88441008

no /co/ but Goku from DBZ kills but is still a hero. Having restraint and only killing when it's your only option are what makes for s good hero.

>>88444378
Goku only kills Kid Buu in DBZ

>>88444086
Okay, then please educate me. When the hell can superman do anything like this that wasn't the Silver Age?
If you don't respond with an actual answer that will be interpreted as you admitting your own casual status.

We legit have only 2 superheroes not willing to kill which are Superman and Batman. If you want killing and murdering heroes just use literally anyone the fuck else. This film just reveals which people are worth avoiding entirely. I'm still not understanding how a single person can be cool with Superman of all characters in MOS. Bloodthirsty idiots.

>>88444399

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4tLVvkNrmY

>>88444409
Gold Kryptonite exists Post-Crisis

>>88444399

And >>88444461 was after this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15eeqLJ9fEc

Frieza is a cunt.

>>88442017
lol

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>>88441008

>Is there anyway to make a hero/superhero who actually kills the villain, but is still viewed as a hero?

Make the villain such a complete monster that the audience/reader wants them to die.

Alternatively, make the villain an actual monster/alien/robot/whatever.

>>88444476
I was only aware of green and red, you win this round. However, in MoS he had none handy, so it's a bit moot of a point.

>>88444409
Not that person but you did watch the film, yes? Are you aware that Zod took Superman's powers away in it? When Zod had his crew strap Superman to a table, insert a needle in his arm, talk about his lost of powers and then send him to a dream world? They had a means to strip Kryptonians of their powers in. The. Fucking. Film. Which isn't even important because it's not real events is a fucking movie. Synder and Goyer was originally going to have Zod sucked into the phantom zone like Superman tends to do. You want to know why they didn't go with that? Between them they couldn't come up with a way to make that interesting and a whole host of other frankly terrible reasons people should be pissed at. Read their interviews.

>>88444461
YEAH HE SURE DID A GOOD JOB WITH THAT

Superman does kill in comics.It does not happen very often and the things he kills are usually planet destroying threats.

To answer OP's question a superhero who kills villains can still be a hero if they kill as an absolute last resort. If a hero constantly kills when there are other options readers and people within the story will usually call them out.

>>88444567
but no one wants to see the Joker die and he is a monster

>>88442002
This and the neck snap where the parts I absolutely hate the most. Jor-El legit left Lara to die alone and got stabbed so Clark could "be the bridge between two people". They turned Superman into a xenophobic genocidal flippant piece of shit who cared so little that he destroyed all his own people, Superman destroyed all his OWN PEOPLE, that he made out with Lois right afterwards. Which the ashes of Krypton slip through Zod's finger and he says "Now I have no people" Cavill's acting was pitch perfect in that moment because his face completely didn't give a fuck. Fuck this movie.

>>88441932
did you want Hot Rod getting in the way of every potential kill?

>>88441008
Thought of a relatively easy way that settings like Astro City brings up.
Basically, you make superheroes deputies of the local police forces. They are allowed to take life in immediate defense of themselves and others, but if they can find a way to non-lethally disarm the situation so perpetrators can be brought in for questioning and a trial by their peers. In most cases superheroes are stupidly more competent then the police and can easily manage to take people in alive.
In situations where there is no other choice however (villains too powerful to be reasonably be expected to arrest or even hold), they are allowed to kill in defense of themselves and others.

In war-like situations (alien invasions and the like) this also allows them to use more lethal force then usual.

>>88444738
That's because we all want t see uim get raped.
And some of us want him to die twice so the joker count gets fixed.

Yeah it's easy, just don't make "I don't kill" such an ingrained part of their character.

When a hero, or any character really, has "one rule" you don't get to just break it. It has to feel like there's a damn good reason why they're breaking it, or at least like them breaking it will have implications. When Bruce pulled a gun on some crooks at the start of Batman Beyond it served a purpose in the story, it wasn't just done to shock the audience.

>>88444807
>In situations where there is no other choice however
This scenario doesn't exist especially in fictional world and ESPECIALLY in a Superman one. That's the entire point of the character. You can get away with it but you are spitting on everything he stands for just to be disingenuous as fuck and creatively hyper lazy.

Also, superheroes are very often smarter than cops which isn't unbelievable at all. Cops arent hired unless they are verifiably stupid. Easier to control that way.

>>88443261

I dislike how the movie makes Superman into something of a reactionary force. What sets Superman apart, to me, was the fact that Clark assumes that mantle of his own volition. It didn't take seen John or Martha get gunned down or anything to make him decide to do it. It was his upbringing and his general good nature to do the right thing with his abilities.

It's the same reason I disliked JMS' Earth One.

>>88444738
I do. I've wanted him and quite a lot of other villains who should have been executed a long time ago to be killed. He adds nothing to batman other than showing us Batman has no actual problems with innocent people dying and that he shouldn't bother stopping people if he's not going to stop the cause.

>>88444920
Aside from the "you're trying too hard" edgy comment at the end, I largely agree with you.
I do not agree that superheroes should NEVER kill however, but they shouldn't kill prisoners and shouldn't kill casually.
And I'm not taking about MoS, I'm talking in general comics and portrayals. I'm not the kind of guy who twists his cock in a knot over a vaguely disappointing film three years old and then whines about it over the Internet.

>>88445009
It ain't Batman's fault the state chooses not to pursue the death penalty, just like it isn't a detective's fault the state chooses not to pursue the death penalty with a serial killer

>>88445009
>Batman never kills the Joker so he doesn't actually care about the public
This is a meme for retarded people.

>>88445066
The difference is a serial killer 90% of the time, won't escape. The situation is completely different when the joker has the blood of thousands of people on his hands and batman won't fucking do what has to be done. When you bring back a villain like over and over again it stops being thought provoking and starts being insanity.

>>88444920
Uhm. You must think real burocracy works like a micromanagement video game. Never start any sort of bussiness that needs employees, for your own fucking good.

>>88441097
Yeah but Marvel has never made heroes. They're just vigilantes and super soldiers.

>>88441008
heroes that do not kill are idiots

>>88442831
in other words, they are the only smart people around

>>88445022
But you are the type of guy to find an opportunity to feel superior to others about something you clearly don't care as much about.

>>88445222
I gotta admit I'm not understanding you at all. Are you saying something like many creators have written for Superman before as a point of contrast or disagreement?

>>88441008
The superman I know and love killed Zod, Ursa and Non.

The superman from the comics.

>>88445403
No, but I thought we were talking about in general only to find out someone can't get over that shit already.
Old news. Move on.

>>88441178
We expect Superman to try harder and find a way.

That is what Superman is and does.

Killing Zod in MOS isn't a villainous act. But we admire Superman because he has the will and the power to find a better way.

Not understanding that is not understanding Superman.

>>88445403
No, I'm saying that's not how police are hired. But then again, I'm in Canada, anon might have been from some spick shithole where instead of getting a ticket they rape you and steal your wallet.

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>>88445554

>>88445181
No, but you ARE aware Batman could kill the Joker over and over again to pretty much no lasting effect, right?
He'd either come right back or a legacy villain who is identical for all purposes and intents would take up the mantle.

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>>88445378

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>>88445554
And this?

>>88445580
Do you even know the context behind this?

>>88445484
People forget that Superman does kill in the comics but only in extreme circumstances.

I will get flamed for saying this but in MOS Superman did nothing wrong by putting down Zod. The problem is that Snyder likes to put Superman in no win situations where he winds up looking like a bad guy for doing the right thing.

>>88445625
yes

>>88445554
Thank you. Fucking this 1000 percent.

>>88445580
>>88445608
Of course a misogynist, pedo that's responsible for Superman's continued stagnation as a brand and turns Superman into an executioner is who defines your Superman. We all can use comics as well to show Superman swearing never to kill and talk about the asinine reasons Goyer and Synder did it and the point of the character and all that. You have so little ground to stand on Superman would need to catch you when you fell.

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>>88445628
This is called incompetent writting and direction.

Before the scene it is never stabelished that he has a no kill rule, so the scene has no wheight. IF it was killing Zod that made him develop the "no kill rule" he could have AT LEAST mentioned Zod a single time on BvS, but he never talks about him or the event again.

Even more strange is that after doing what snyderfags say: stabelishing his "no kill" rule on MOS, his next movie ends with him killing and dying against Doosmday (which was the right thing to be honest considering that he isn't setient), but at no point his aversion to killing is ever adressed.

>>88445667
Explain to the class what is the context of the story, where they are, and what Zod and his friends did.

>>88445628
They don't forget. They ignore that one retconned comic by one writer who only doesn't molest children because he doesn't have the nerve.


You're trying to come off as though you are the one that knows comics, but you clearly don't.

The problem in MOS isn't that "Superman" did anything particularly wrong. It's that he was insufficiently super.
Superman finds a better way because he's Superman. Superman doesn't take the expedient, quick, or even safe way out.

He takes the right way out- even if it seems impossible. Especially if it seems impossible.

the Man of Steel made a snap decision without even exploring alternatives. It's not the right take on the character, and putting him in that situation in the first place betrays a total lack of understanding of the character to begin with.

>>88445875
as if you needed more than the pa Kent scene to see Zack doesn't get it

>>88444620

I mean, he left him as a bleeding torso on an exploding planet, and what's more, from Goku's perspective he really did believe he vaporized him, there were no visible traces of his corpse in sight.

Who the fuck would actually expected him to survive in the vacuum of space long enough for his daddy to drop by and save him?

>>88445580
>>88445608
those are the same retconned scene written by a washed up, would-be child molester. Widely panned by virtually every Superman writer before and after.

>>88445484
That's not the real Superman, as virtually every Superman creator before and since would agree.

You want Superboy Prime.

>>88445875
>People bitch when he's too OP
>Now you bitch he's too flawed
You are a huge reason why we say "Capeshits" on here and not "super hero comics"

>>88446266
Talking about power levels in any capacity is the first and greatest sign of a casual, any arguments involving them can be safely and immediately discarded

>>88441008
im not even going to read the thread, but i am going to now scroll down, and if this thread didnt get hijacked by kamen rider and power rangers, im going to be disappointed in you /co/

>>88446660
It almost did by cumin raiders

>>88441008
John Byrne's Superman killed Zod with Kryptonite. There's hundreds of different versions of Superman. Especially if counting the Elseworlds stories.

>>88446184
Prime is an amalgamation of every version, so no, they want the one who actually did that, not the version from the shitty facebook memes that spread lies to casuals.

>>88441685
>He is from a catholic family

u wot m8

>>88441826
>Wolverine
>Not a hero

>>88446824
>John Byrne's Superman killed Zod with Kryptonite.
This directly lead to Superman having a mental breakdown from the guilt and getting a murderer off death row to cope.

Also he didn't destroy half a city in the process.

>>88447082
To be specific they're antiheros. Maybe he's a retard that thinks antihero isn't a subset of hero.

>>88441008
Literally every genre of fiction ever made besides cape garbage does it all the time, you fucking retard.

>>88441008
Sure, we have cops right?

>>88445554
I actually likde to see it as Superman taking his first life, you know, choosing the easy route, and from that point on deciding he would never take a single life ever again or go the easy route. Then he killed Doomsday, but maybe we can count it as an exception since that was an abomination of nature that shouldn´t exist.

SUPERMAN FUCKING KILLED ZOD IN SUPERMAN 2

REEEEE

FUCK ALL OF YOU

>>88447680
Not only that, but he killed him with a fucking smug grim and made out with Lois right where Zod died.

It wasn't a merciful death either. MoS Superman let him get off with a quick snap of the neck. Superman II Superman took away Zod's powers and threw him into the fucking arctic ocean. And he SMILED. At least MoS Superman was visibly traumatized by the experience.

>>88447408
The thing is, they never MENTION it, Supes never tell us what he thinks about >>88445761

>>88447725
Director's cut show him alive. If BvS and MOS fags can mention director's cut, so can others.

>>88441008
Make him a hero in a story that doesn't have a villain?

>>88441008
Easy in self defense or defending an innocent from the villain when the situation couldn't warrant any other way.

>>88447680
>everyone will ignore this fact until the end of time

why does anyone bother

>>88448187
You are ignoring people adressing it on this thread.

>>88444409
Didn't this movie take inspiration from the 'last son of krypton' story line? In that story Superman open a porthole that sucked zod and his men into the phantom zone.

>>88441740
>Superheroes are not qualified to make the decision on who gets to live and who dies.
Then I guess they shouldn't save people either?

The entire super sect of heroes and villains is already beyond the scope of normal society, whether its well-meaning idealists who take it upon themselves to handle threats that ordinary law enforcement can't, or psychopaths who think their abilities make them gods among men, they've already set themselves apart and above the rest.

The only ones qualified to pass judgment on them is their own.

>>88447190
>cops
>heroes

>>88441960
>they're completely right about someone else being a worse villain

Fuck you, Kurt and Piotr are the purest dudes in Marvel

>>88441097
Spider-Man is generally the "no kill hero" of Marvel

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>>88441448
>>88441765
years later still the most debated scene in the trilogy./

>>88450928
>Trilogy
You don't read much entertainment news, do you?

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>>88450960
>six Transformers movies and no signs of stopping
>everyone acknowledges they're awful
>still make money hand over robot fist
why do people keep paying for these

>>88450960
well it's not like anyone debates over the fourth.

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>>88451004
It's the only robot series in the movies right now. PR2's not coming any time soon and it pretty much dominated the genre whereas TMNT and other nostalgia movies failed.

>>88451056
>PR2's not coming any time soon
if by "not any time soon" you mean "February 23, 2018"

>>88451056
When did Optimus get a Gundam skirt?

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>>88441008
Well apparently if he just smiles while he does it then no one will care.

>>88451004
I honestly have no idea. I've somehow managed to go my entire life without paying to see a Transformers movie or even sitting through one on TV.

>>88450928
>killed him in TF2
>tried to kill him in TF3 by blowing up their ship while they were leaving
>been a war for who knows how long
>leader of the DECEPTICON
>yeah no Optimus, let's have a truce until I find a new way to fuck things up

Optimus did the right thing
and Megatron still found a way to come back and start troubles in TF4 anyway

>>88451121
Well yeah.
>>88450928
The "give me your face" scene was always much worse in my opinion.

>>88447680
Yes but Superman 2 didn't frame it as a tragedy.
Once again, Snyder uses sad music, sad colors, and a big NOOOOO. He wants us to feel bad that Clark killed Zod.
Seriously guys. Snyder used literally the exact same methodology for Zods death as he did for Jonathan Kent.
If you want people to think that the death of a character is a good thing, you can't muddy it up in presentation like that. It's that fucking simple.

You keep jeering about how you can take Man of Steel seriously and then you REEEE when everyone else takes it seriously too. Fuck you.

>>88451121
Gosh it's almost like presentation affects reception and interpretation.

For a bunch of salty fucks that go on and on about deep visuals and kinographie it's amazing how easily you miss the forest for the trees.

>>88451004
Because they're entertaining?

>>88451244
You're saying Superman killing is only excusable if he's happy about it?

>>88451272
they're not, though

these movies about giant robots are almost frighteningly dull

>>88451004
they have the best villains
it's embarrassing how Transformers has more complex villains than Marvel movies

>>88451121
What's the context of the one from Supergirl?

>>88451213
But the death of Zod isn't a good thing. It's good that the Earth is saved. It's good that that family gets to live.

But Zod's character is tragic. He truly wanted to best for his people, and once that chance was lost, he became like a mad, rabid dog.

In addition, it represents Clark really losing a part of himself; he's been fighting tooth and nail to save people the entire time, and even in the fight with Zod, he didn't want to kill him.

That being said, I do think Clark having an aversion to killing could have been much better established. Personally, I would have had a scene where infant Clark steps on a bug and sees it dying with his super-senses, and have that terrify him by making him realise how fragile life is.

>>88451302
>What's the context of the one from Supergirl?
He's saying it to some scientist that was forced to be a Metallo who he just defeated. When I saw the episode I was like "buhwaaa?" because that's a bit much.

>>88451295
yes, the Fallen, Optimus BUT EVIL, and whatever the fuck the villain in the fourth one was (Galvatron? That hunter dude? The man-made Transformers?) sure were great villains

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>>88451292
They are, that's my opinion and the opinion of hundreds of millions of people who see them every release. It may be that we can't defend why we enjoy them, but we do, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Believe it or not, but some people don't need the internet's validation to like something, and don't pretend to hate something to get (you's) on fucking /co/.

>>88450928
I like this Optimus. He gets more tired of humanity's, decepticons', and autobots' shit with every movie, comic, and book.

Now Megatron has to play the part of the Last Knight and save the entire fucking universe for a change. He'll never give Optimus shit again after dealing with everyone's bullshit.

>>88451331
Yeah, that's...really not Superman to me. Snyder's Superman is dour and overly serious, but he never came off as overzealous.

>>88451331
To be fair Metallo nearly killed Kara and set off a bomb in Metropolis.Superman had reason to be angry.

>>88451420
He did in Batman V Superman, but still didn't actually threaten Luthor until he was throwing pictures of his tortured mother at him.

I don't know, I think part of it is that artists and film-makers have been getting really addicted to the imagery of Superman with his eyes glowing to get the point across that OH SHIT HE'S PISSED. It works really well when it's rare, but it's been happening like every other week recently.

>>88451335
Let's take the 4th movie as an example

>Lockdown is just a bounty hunter there to capture Optimus, allies with humans and respects the deal isn't just an evil giant robot
>the CIA guy, wants to protect the planet and thinks all aliens are a threat, also wants to secure the best technology for his country and have a nice pension
>the strike team guy, hate transformers because of the battle of chicago
>Galvatron/Megatron still trying to save his race by taking over the world
>the scientist guy just wanted to advance technology and make money helping the CIA guy, changes his way when he realizes he was doing it wrong

meanwhile all Marvel villains are

>take over the world
or
>have revenge

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Barry broke Thawne's neck and killed him.

It led to a shitstorm though even if the charges were eventually dropped iirc.

>>88441289
>he's a military trained professional soldier

That got his ass kicked by a scientist

>>88451529
we were talking about heroes
not selfish pricks that abuse their powers for selfish reasons

I dislike MoS, but think it's okay for Superman to kill if he has to.

I like the idea that Superman chooses to believe in us but isn't obsessed with saving everyone because he already knows he can't, since he hears so much all the time.

Meanwhile, Batman, the human, is desperately, fully committed to the idea that everyone can and should be saved, despite his fear tactics and so on.

>>88451555
He was a Martial Scientist.

>>88451244
Snyderfags are autistic and can't grasp "intention" or "context".

>>88442720
This is basically where I stand.

In the situation that Superman was put in, i.e. A choice between killing Zod or letting millions/billions, or even just that one family die, he made the right choice.

I do resent the fact that Snyder, Goyer, Nolan etc put him in that position and handled it so hamfistedly.

>>88441008
Yes. If people can consider a cop busting a cap in an autistic school shooters ass a hero they can definitely consider a buff guy ripping Super-Hitlers head off a hero.

>>88441008
The only bad thing about MoS killing Zod is that he didn't do it 20 minutes earlier and prevent the deaths of thousands.

>>88446065
>washed up, would-be child molester.

No Mark Waid is the one saying Superman shouldn't be from a farm community anymore because Trump won and he hates small towns now

Also Superman is a vegetarian because he loves all lfie

>>88441740
but green goblin killed himself

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>>88442024
That's literally not the case. The very foundation of the human concept of morality is the idea of the greater good. When two conflicting actions both seem good, which produces the greater good? That's opportunism. When two conflicting actions both seem wrong, which produces the least wrong? That's compromise. Heroism requires compromise all the time; if the fate of mankind rested on your shoulders, and all you had to do was kill one child, I think you would do it in a heartbeat. That act was not un-heroic. It was simply a compromise. When put in perspective, Superman's obligation to his people vastly outweigh his personal code of ethics because not killing Zod would certainly spell doom for the human race. And since he is the only being that could feasibly kill Zod, Superman's actions were heroic. Even if Zod had given Superman an ultimatum in which he could either kill a child or else Zod would destroy the Earth, Superman killing the child would be heroic because the alternative would be his indirect murder of every last human on Earth. The hangup people often get about this sort of problem is the physical act of killing people, which I think is ridiculous; killing is the allowance of a person to die, whether by your own hand or by your own negligence. The trolley problem (the regular one, not the one you mentioned) has only one real solution, and that is pulling the lever. By not pulling it, you are killing the three people to save one, and the fact that you didn't lay a hand on the lever changes that not one bit.

There's actually a dichotomy between Zod's arc and Superman's arc: both want to maintain the survival of their species, even if it means the extinction of another. The difference, and the thing that makes Superman's actions heroic and Zod's un-heroic, is summed up in one line: "Krypton had its chance." Who would you rather save; a new race yet to embark on galactic exploration, or an old one that allowed itself to be swallowed by hubris?

>>88445757
Superman killing them wasn't retconned, IIRC it was a minor plotpoont in Superman #666 since it was a stain in his soul and it allowed a Kryptonian demon to get to Clark.

It's just that thanks to a bunch of crisis shenanigans Clark didn't remember.

>>88452258
the difference is that Superman, as a fictional character, doesn't have to be and in fact should not be written as having to make that impossible choice and in fact his very character is built around providing a third option

in "the trolley problem," Superman doesn't have to pull the lever since he can just stop the trolley

>>88441928
American Alien was fucking great. Landis has a good take on Superman.

>>88452335
>should not be written as having to make that impossible choice
If you don't allow characters to do new things and only write the same stories again and again it gets stale. This isn't me saying that Superman is outdated or anything because I hate when people say that, just that "you can't ever write this character so he has to make a hard choice" is very boring logic.

>>88442039
No, anon. Sometimes there really is no other way.

You know why?

Because Superman doesn't exist. He and his world have no agency outside of the writer's decisions, and if the writer (or editorial or whatever the fuck) says "he has to kill someone to save lives", then he has to kill someone to save lives. The whole "always a third way" is a petulant cop-out.

>>88452401
the point of the character is to provide that third option

if you're not going to let the character fulfill its purpose, why are you using the character at all?

>>88441448
Wait at what point in the tv show/comic was Optimus above killing?

>>88452436
people just thought it was weirdly brutal since Sentinel had already lost pretty hard and Optimus just blew his brains out execution style

>>88452432
I know, and I LOVE when Superman pulls through on that third option, but having him struggle is not bad.
Execution of it, sure, but the concept itself is not a contradiction of his character.

>>88452258
>Who would you rather save; a new race yet to embark on galactic exploration, or an old one that allowed itself to be swallowed by hubris?


This is bulshit. You are basically causing extinction of a race and all the countless ppssible kryptonians because of the mistake of their ancestors. Its no different than saying that the governament should pay descendants of slaves as compensation, or white guilty.

>>88441782
why no donkey punch?

>>88441008
Dishing out eternal punishment is a nice way to morbidly sidestep the issue. They aren't dead, they're just suffering forever!

>>88442287
Injustice Superman was objectively and unironically right here

Killing a defeated, captured foe in a rage is in no way equivalent to killing an invading army of bloodthirsty (alien) soldiers bent on wholesale genocide.

>>88452459
In the 86 movie he fucking mows down at minimum 11 decepticons in the first 3 minutes and outright tries to kill megatron...had nobody watched the original cartoon.

>>88452560
several versions of Superman have had no problem with killing Parademons mostly because they're basically mindless automatons

>>88452335
I get where you're coming from, with the whole "superheroes are imaginary and shouldn't have to deal with the limitations that beset us" thing, but if you're implying that Superman morally could not handle a situation in which there is no third option, then you're just admitting that Superman is a weak character. I think Snyder's Superman is strong because he made what he thought was the right decision despite it breaking his personal moral code. And just dodging the question of what he would do were he faced with such a daunting challenge is just lazy and frankly insulting to his character.

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>>88452624
You probably loves gun-loving, hitler-killer, Karl Marx Superman.

>>88452689
>Karl Marx
that's clearly Santa Claus

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>>88451244
>>88451274
For reals

>>88442391
you forgot the part where superman could of
>slammed zods head into the floor
>pulled zod in another direction
>jaw punched zod and super speed saved the people.
>moved in front of zod, tanked a second or two of heat vision and beat the shit out of zod
>held zods head in place and used his heat vision to cause the roof above or floor below himself and zod to collapse
>jammed his thumbs into zods eyes at superspeed with superstrength
>heat vision through zods shoulder, chest etc in a non lethal way.

>>88452689
I really don't. I like the Superman who is strong enough to do what is right by any means necessary; if possible, no injuries. If possible, no deaths. But if worse comes to worst, and an impossible choice between the greater good and a code of ethics, what would you do?

>>88452689
Not him, but this is immature in the extreme. You want Superman to be able to completely resolve every situation without any losses or compromise. And you think everyone else who doesn't agree likes whatever the hell that is?

I love Superman, as an optimistic hero that's inspiring. But there's nothing inspiring about someone who always wins no problem, because the writers aren't allowed to put him in difficult situations.

If Superman's fighting Zod, knows that if he pulls his punches he'll probably lose (and doom the earth), and furthermore knows that every single second the fight goes on the casualties will pile up, I think he should go for the jugular from moment 1.

>>88442708
>I could easily stop this truck
>super trollface
>nope.crystal

>>88442795
even most anime characters attempt to limit damage/loss of life.

I want to see pre new 52 supes fight mos supes

>>88452777
AND FUCKING THEN WHAT? WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THAT? WHAT DOES HE DO WITH ZOD? You shortsighted motherfucker.
>Whelp I knocked him out I guess that's the end!

>>88452777
You're thinking about this wrong.

UItimately, if the writers say "there's no other way", there is no other way. Focusing on pedantry is missing the idea they're trying to convey.

Man, I HATED man of steel, and yet I find myself defending it because so many of its detractors are argueing the wrong things.

Doesn't Superman try to kill Darkseid every chance he has and didn't he kill Doomsday before he died himself?