>the Sith create simple AI robots to fight for them >the

>>the "good guys" create disposable humans who can think and feel to fight for them
not what happened
sage

>>88219945

Then what would you call clones who demonstrate comradery, patriotism and remorse and are sent to die countless times?

>>88219994
The good guys didn't create or want to use the clones.

>>88220081
>but send them to die anyway

>>88219883
I need some AU meterial where the Clones were never created and its just Jedi vs hoards of droids.

>>88220097
That, or let the separatists win.

The best part of the Clone wars was when it went completely Sci Fi on Morals and Ethics.
You get a better perspective when you are forced to deal with the fact you have mass produced battle clones supervised under Super Battle Monks.

the clones should have been set for life once the fighting is over, grant then some sweet pensions, a chance of a normal life, maybe a blaster shaped pool where they can relax with jedi babes

instead they were sentenced to hard labor and forgotten about, with resistors terminated using brain chips, stupid empire denying our heroes their just reward

I wish more stories would explore Clone Armies.

>>88220097
>>88220597
Getting involved in the war was very much presented as a mistake for the Jedi.

They should have remained peacekeepers, not taken sides and become military generals in a galactic conflict. If the separatists did win, so fucking what? Isn't that up to the citizens and leaders of those planets to do what they think is best for them?

Sheev's plan relied on getting the Jedi into the war. If they had refused to take part he would have been pretty fucked.

>>88220875
I like how Yoda acknoldges their mistake to Luke

>wars not make one great!

I still maintain that the PT enriches the OT, inconsistencies and all.

>>88220597
Should have just let them.

>>88220081
>>88220875
Moreover, the morality of the clone army IS something that is explored.

>>88220918
I wonder if they're going to return to this idea in the new films too.

Would be interesting if Luke fucked off because he thought Jedi getting involved in another conflict was just a really bad idea.

>>88220959
This.
George wisely delegated that to the Expanded Universe, because the PT was not about the clones, beyond their use in Sheev's machinations.

>>88221046
No, Luke fucked off because JJ needed an Old Ben analogue to complete his ANH pastiche.
He character assassinated Luke.

So how long before we all become post-trolling and get back to having actually discussions on things

>>88221095
This thread is more or less troll free, though.

>>88219883
>>88219994
>>88220097

>it's a "let's talk about the prequel trilogy" thread

In the second trilogy the empire used clones as well as being able and willing to commit genocide on those who refuse to follow them.

Get off your high horse, fag. The bads were appropriately labeled bad.

>>88220875
>If they had refused to take part he would have been pretty fucked.

I'm sure he could've easily swayed public opinion against them if they chose to abstain from fighting. Besides they Jedi Order swore an oath to defend the Republic during the early years of it's founding, backing out of that would've been a pretty big deal.

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>>88221122
I'm unironically enjoying this new age of prequel re-assessment.

I've always loved them.

>>88221085
getting a little presumptive aren't we?

we'll see what they have in store for Luke in a year.

>>88221095
>post-trolling
>4chan
Round about when Hell freezes over?

If you're referring to the OP, controversial statements or questions have always been a perfectly acceptable way to stimulate discussion here. Which is exactly what happened, I'm not sure what you're complaining about since the thread already has plenty of on topic posts.

>>88221199
In retrospect they may have been poorly made and written but they at least tried something different and were memorable. Compare that to the new movie which is a better movie overall but feels like a bland generic remake of the first movie

>>88221245
>we'll see what they have in store for Luke in a year.
The next movie wight well turn it around, due to no JJ.

But i'd stake my life on the fact that JJ had no grand plan for Luke.

>>88221264
>poorly made and written
>the new movie which is a better movie overall

I agree to disagree.
Let's drop it though, this thread is comfy. I don't want to derail it.

>>88221065
>George wisely delegated
Fuck you, that's not smart in the slightest. Side-stepping a MAJOR theme and obvious moral hypocrisy, you're just making the writing look worse when the audience is waiting for someone to confront it. It would have been way more interesting if they focused on that and tied it in to the characters and motivations they presented.

For instance, why not make that the reason Count Dooku went Sith after being a Jedi for most of his life? Instead of just chocking it up to another boring power-hungry motivation?

>>88221264
The prequels actually tried to have ideas. You have no idea what the fuck is happening in the new one. Why are the First Order holding Nuremberg rallies? Do they have an ideological foundation? Abrams throws around Nazi imagery to make them look ultimate evil, but it doesn't work because we have literally no idea what their deal is or why they're so angry.

>>88221265
Didn't they say they had no plans or answers for any of the mystery's in the movie and are just going to make it up as they go along?

>>88221340
>Fuck you, that's not smart in the slightest.
stopped reading there
baseless George hate is passe

>>88221365
I can see Abrams doing that considering that was the entirety of LOST and Fringe (although Fringe was better).

>>88221340
>For instance, why not make that the reason Count Dooku went Sith after being a Jedi for most of his life? Instead of just chocking it up to another boring power-hungry motivation?
Because SW always needs an element of pulp, and you cast a pulp actor for a pulp role.

>>88220918
>I still maintain that the PT enriches the OT, inconsistencies and all.
Machete order best order. Padme naming Luke and Leia on her deathbed is a far, far better reveal for that than "oh by the way Leia's your sister, sorry I didn't mention it".

>>88220918
*acknowledges
damn I fucked that up

>>88221486
I never found the Padme death inconsitent, either.
Women are more emotionally sensitive, so Leia remembered Padme "as beautiful, but sad" through the force, while Luke did not.

The beautiful but sad part ties into ROTJ perfectly.

>>88219883
The robots seem to be able to think and feel to, so that's also sorta messed up.

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How the hell do robots in star wars work?
Are they sentient or not?

>>88221264

This! Said it a year ago and everyone was so pissed at me.

>Hate the prequels all you want, because it's a meme to do do, but at least they gave us something new and original with every movie. JJ Abrams gave us NOT Episode Four. Just rehashed literally everything.

The cool thing about Star Wars is it's scope and scale. There is so much creative potential with it. And Lucas was limited to what we knew about space back in his day. We know so much about exo planets now..

There are planets where it literally rains diamonds... J.J. Abrams gave us a generic dessert and two generic forests. The new SW is unacceptably unimaginative.

>>88223679
They are sapient

>>88223721
>generic dessert
Was he on a cooking show to promote the movie?

>>88223826

Ha. *desert.

>>88223764
So does that mean they have sense of self and personalities but not have a soul?

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>>88224038
That is correct. Only living things are part of the Living Force, which in turn feeds the Cosmic Force, which protects the Living Force. Non-living things do not feed into the Living Force. The Dark Side disrupts the flow of energy from the living force into the Cosmic Force by redirecting it to the user, keeping it within the Living Force in a non-productive manner.

Droids just get to watch

>>88220597
Or you know, stop using clones and just use robots like everyone else.

>>88219883
I thought the Clone centered episodes in SWTCW were really interesting.

It was a kids show, but it still touched some morally grey and ethically questionably motives of using clones when there were more humane alternatives

>>88226787
but clones are smarter, more creative

just give them proper compensation at the end of the war, like free housing, free speeders, free jedi babes

Technically, the Sith did both

>>88226916
I guess that would be better, but clones were treated like shit.
No one cared about their well being.
It was so bad that there were clones constantly betraying the Jedi because they were sick of how things were.

>>88226953
not yoda, I remeber that he believed in his troops, even when the troops questioned their own humanity
refusing to leave a clone behind, even when the clone in question claimed he was expendable

This was one of the first episodes I watched of Clone Wars.
https://youtu.be/BRK7CV-5FZ4?t=1m20s

If anyone on the show was going to die a horrible death it had to be the clones.

It's so weird how even though I know Wars in the SW universe were waged on a universal scale, I still think of the battles as more personal similar to how they happen here on Earth when in reality that would not be the case?

How many billions of clones and droids were created to wage a(n) Galactic War?

>>88219883
The with created the clones tho...

>>88226916
>free jedi babes
Did you miss the point of the clones? Hint: it was to kill all the Jedi.

>>88221357
you mean exactly like the empire in the original trilogy?

>>88227121
Supposedly only a few million clones were made, with some more millions in the wings pending Senate funding.

>>88227128
Sith*

>>88221420
to be fair, I can't speak for LOST but I know in the case of Fringe, Abrams only worked on the first season

>>88224038
I always find this shit sad. Like when it came to the Clones they did an great job at exploring the moral dilemma behind raising and breeding people to fight but whenever a droid is involved almost every Jedi apart from Anakin basically said "Fuck 'Em".

I dunno maybe I'm just too sentimental.

>>88220081
>The good guys didn't create or want to use the clones.
Sifu Dyas was a good guy.

>>88227141
The empire in the original was the empire. The New Order are the rebels this time. What do they want? What is their motivation? The Empire was already in power and wanted to stay there.

>>88227141
I think the point is they never explained the political dynamics going on at the time

We leave RotJ with the Empire being defeated

Skip ahead to TFA and we've got Leia still leading some rebel group and the First Order blows up the home planet of the New Republic, which isn't supporting Leia at least not openly, and that planet isn't Coruscant?

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Fun Fact: Originally Sifo-Dyas, the Jedi Master who commissioned the clone army, was supposed to be a pseudonym of Palpatine but due to a spelling mistake in part of George Lucas everyone treated him as a new character and just went along with it.

TL note: This may or may not be true I heard it in a podcast (maybe? I don't remember) and i can't be bothered looking up if it's true

>>88227735
to my understanding the first order are the vestigal remains of the empire, largely confined to the outer rim, although apparently they can still afford super star destroyers (those cortosis crystals must be worth a fortune), and leia wanted to push the new republic to finish them off, but mon mothma wanted to demilitarize right after the empires power was broken, mon mothma won the senate over and the empires holdouts were allowed to remain, eventually reunifying under the first order, under the assumption that they were no longer a threat.
while leia lost the vote, she still had a lot of supporters, so when she left the new republic to form the resistance, a group of fighters dedicated to undoing the first orders power, a lot of her friends allowed supplies, cash, and arms to trickle their way down to the resistance (how an entire squadron simply "fell off a truck" is beyond me)

did i leave anything out, is anything still unclear? correct/clarify me where wrong

>>88219883
IIRC, there are quotes in the Republic Commando novels (and I believe the topic itself is even addressed by a character) that there were quite a few Jedi who didn't like having the clones, equating it to essentially being a slave army that was deemed a necessary evil.

>>88227680
Wasn't he just a cover name for Sidious in early drafts? Even then, he was the only council member to support the idea of having the army.

>>88227891
>but mon mothma wanted to demilitarize right after the empires power was broken, mon mothma won the senate over and the empires holdouts were allowed to remain, eventually reunifying under the first order, under the assumption that they were no longer a threat.
Wait, is this canon? Is this what really happened?

Did they learn ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from the takeover of the emperor? Is the New Republic just another bloated bureaucratic mess of bullshit all over again?

>>88227916
>Even then, he was the only council member to support the idea of having the army.
According to the old EU he was influenced by Palpatine, who was trying to get buddy-buddy with some Jedi at the time, and was directed to Geonosis in order to raise the clone army in accordance with Sheev's plan.

>>88227848
That's why the novels and tie-in information books are so important.

>inb4 it should just be in the movie in the first place
That's not wrong, but SW is more than just the movies now, and that's something you just have to adjust to or be left confused.

>>88227945
canonicity is uncertain, since this isnt explained in the movie

>>88227945
After the Battle of Endor, most of the core worlds were still under Empire rule until the Battle of Jakku a year later. The New Republic tries pushing core-ward and taking important planets away from the Empire (Kuat being a big one) but give up once the main Imperial remnant fleet is devastated over Jakku. All the planets still under Empire rule (Coruscant being one) are allowed to stay "Empire in name, nothing else."

The officers, troopers, scientists, and whatever else that don't accept the end of the GCW leave the known galaxy and go into the Unknown Regions to reform into the First Order. The "Empire in name, only" eventually just fades into the NR, I assume.

>>88227976
Novels, anon. :^)

>>88227945
I think mon mothma didnt want to push so hard into the outer rim, because she thought that having a HUGE army would cause the new republic to turn into a second empire (the battle of jakku, which ended the empire as the dominant power, left entire ISDII husks littering the ground, yet few rebel craft other than a few snub fighters are seen)
so she wanted the war over and done with ASAP, while Leia thought that the empire shouldnt be left unattended or else they would simply rearm and become a second empire

Leia turned out to be right, for what its worth

>>88228052
>>88228017
>>88227945
If you were mon mothma, would you risk mobilizing the entire rebel fleet all the way out to the outer rim, to take out what the public believes to be a small insignificant remnant?

this would cause an uproar, since you would be invading worlds that mostly stated out of the larger scope of the war, in the hopes of taking out the imperials stationed there

Serious question, how corrupt exactly were the Jedi and the Republic by the time of the Clone Wars? Did the outer rim separatists have legitimate grievances? Did the Jedi Order truly need reforming?

>>88220597
What would have happened if Palpatines plan went to compete shit and the separatist actually won?

Explain to me the lore behind the First Orders' nu-Death Star

Also, what does /co/ think about Kylo Ren?

>>88228203
By the time Mothma is no longer the Chancellor, I don't think anyone in the NR knows about the First Order. Only after her shitty policies are in full effect and she's replaced do they find out.

>>88225485
So Droids are the real winners they're not tied down by cosmic forces that don't give a shit if you die or not

>>88228209
>Serious question, how corrupt exactly were the Jedi and the Republic by the time of the Clone Wars
Jedis basically became lazy over the centuries of not having Sith around, which made it easy for Palpatine to swoop in and just cloud the shit out of their minds and force attunement.
The outer Rim especially was run by whoever had the biggest guns and / or most money, and Coruscant really didn't care much about anything that happened out there, so crime lords ruled everything. Lots of slavery, lots of illegal weapon trading, and nobody around to stop it. The oh-so-noble Jedi didn't lift a finger to help anybody unless asked to by the senate, so lots of worlds didn't think highly of the Jedi at all.

Outer Rim worlds definitely had legitimate grievances with the Republic.

>>88228209
jedi werent really corrupt, just bogged down in tradition and bureaucracy, but the jedi masters note that they were slowly losing power, both political and with the force, and that the newer jedi were becoming more arrogant, so it was clear they were in decline, corrupt or not

the republic was pretty much under the thumb of palpatine, who managed to convince them all that war was a good idea

the outer rim is pretty much the wild west, the republic has little/no power there, and their reasons for joining the separatists range from sympathetic to straight war profiteering

the jedi order probably needed to reform, but their traditionalism prevented it, so the force undid the organization for them, and there is little word on how luke ran the jedi temple, but luke is a great guy, so i think he did much better until that asshole snoke formed the knights of ren

>>88219883
To be fair, they were both a idea of Palpatine

>>88228329
>Snoke
*Jar Jar

>>88228209
Thry aren't Mafia corrupt they were bogged down by countless shitty political wars which they had no business fighting in they were built to fight in a black & white conflict against power hungry maniacs but they eventually got stuck working for a what was bassicaly an organization more corrupt than FIFA, And about as useful ad the U.N they were slowly rotting themselves out for centuries so till palpating swooped in for the takeover

But the robots are shown to be able to think and feel as well. We arguably see more personality from them in the films than we do the clones.

>>88226953
Not anymore. Order 66 was committed through brainwashing implants given to all the soldiers, now!

>>88228583
robots are entirely sapient, they have silicon souls, which are souls nonetheless
other than the inability to use the force, which most of the galaxy cant use anyways, they act just like people

>>88228229
Palpatine (under dooku) was the leader of the seperatists. If Sepreatists won, Palpatine won, if Republic won, Palpatine won.

>>88228623
>silicon souls

now thas a band name if I ever heard one

>>88228671
oh yeah, it was also from a great episode of BTAS
where a supercomputer makes a perfect robotic copy of batman, however it copied batman so good that he also copied his morality, and when he accidentally "kills" batman, he goes of the wire and destroys both himself and the supercomputer, batman turns out to be alive and muses that the robotic batman might have been as human as he is, uttering[/spoiler"]Could it be it had a soul, Alfred? A soul of silicon, but a soul nonetheless."

>>88220875
>If they had refused to take part he would have been pretty fucked.
How so? Dooku, the Sepratist leader, was his underling. A Sepratist victory was always his plan B, he wins no matter the result of the war. Revenge on the Jedi might have had to be put off, but he'd still be in control of whatever government was in power.

>>88228671
More like cyber punk Dark Souls

>>88221199
the music is good, the setpieces are good, the alien designs are good, some of the acting is good, some of the actors who turned in a bad performance have shown they can be good, and the core ideas could work, it's just the most massively badly written and executed thing this side of a school play
Anakin as a whiny mopey type can work, that's exactly who plans a school shooting or goes off to join ISIS, and having him become evil out of a desire to protect his wife is the plot of about 900 different plays from antiquity through Shakespeare up to the present day, you just need to flesh it out differently and give the actors some fucking sets and props to get in character better

>>88221434
this
Palpatine is the man with the plan and Dooku is the guy trying to scheme on his league, and he has highbrow notions in mind but decidedly lowbrow ways to enact them
they casted fucking Dracula and it fit, they just needed to step up Ian McKellan's acting a little bit to match

>>88228209
the Jedi and the Sith needed to both be wiped out, ostensibly

>>88227883
>sifo-dyas was meant to be a pseudonym of Palpatine
Oh my god, did Lucas mispell Sidious and the crew just run with it? That's goddamn hilarious.