Now that the dust has settled, can we admit Cap was objectively

>>87991350
Yes.

Haha no.

>>87991350
Did we never not agree on that? Steve was wrong, but for the right reasons, Tony was just wrong as a whole.

>>87991376
>>87991383
Well there you go, OP

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>>87991350
Yes, absolutely. God bless America.

cap dropped part of a plane on a 16 year old he just met. Cap is an attempted manslaughterer.
Cap is wrong. If Cap had done nothing, bucky would have been arrested and questioned, Zemo would have sat in that bunker by himself waiting for the avengers to arrive, which they never would.

>>87991404
Boner, no.

>>87991383
To expand, ultimately Cap stance boils down to "I should have a private army that completely ignores national sovereignty and answers only to me, because I am cap and I know best."

There is no sane version of the world, not even the fucked up MCU, where that makes a lick of sense.

Tony is a shitheel throughout the movie, but his train of thought starts at the right place, which is that heroes, like fucking everyone else, need to be held accountable.

>>87991595
The trouble is that governments, even world governments, are ruled by people with political agendas. As cap says, "What if there's a place we need to go and they won't let us?" Or worse, what if they use the avengers to force a political change that tramples on the freedom of people.

>>87991595
Cap outright says he agrees with the concept of accountability, he's just not going along with the Accords because they're a bullshit power play by Ross (and they were). Plus he effectively resigns when it's passed.

>>87991350
>Liberal vs Conservative: The Movie

>>87991934
What?

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>>87991350

there was no right or wrong, the whole topic about the accords became irrelevant when the Avengers fought among each other and destroyed half an airport. The topic was never really relevant to begin with, it was more about muh Bucky who admittedly belongs in prison till proven innocent and muh parents, which was part of a plan that relied on questionable footage, I mean who the hell filmed that secret operation?

Tony actually never really cared that much about the accords either but was there as a mediator because the Avengers were gonna get forced to sign anyway and Tony tried to make sure, they all don't land in prison, also Cap dismissed the accords eventhough Tony assured him that the content could stil be changed but Cap got butthurt because of Wandas house arrest in a fucking villa eventhough she already killed a lot of people by unleashing the Hulk but lets ignore that.

The movie never did the topic justice, other than the short discussion between the avengers which didn't matter anyway as everyone dropped the Accords at the end. Also eventhough the avenges splitted, they gained new powerful members like spiderman, antman and black panther who is the king of the most hightech place in the world, also Cap did give up his shield but that doesn't mean shit either given that Cap is now in the only country with vibranium, he can even get a whole armor this time.

Fuck this movie and its make believe plot.

>>87991873
Individuals are just as capable of having agendas as governments are. In fact the distrust of governments is on even shakier ground considering that throughout all the Marvel movies, only once have the heroes actually fought something that could vaguely be identified as the government. All the rest were individuals with their own agendas and private armies. If anything, cap should be all for increased government control against individual rights.

If there's a place they need to go and they don't let them, then they don't go there. Which sucks, but they don't get to break the global political framework and violate the laws and decisions of the target country willy nilly. That's the difference between people trying to help and a hostile force knocking on your door.

>>87991889
If he agreed with accountability then should have taken an active part in the drafting of the accords and counteracted Ross' power play. Instead he brooded around doing nothing until the accords were at the point of signing.

But he doesn't, really. He literally says "We know best" at one point. Which is a terrible things to say in this context. Captain America in this movie extends trust only to his immediate colleagues and people he fights with, and no one else. And while it's easy to see how Winter Soldier could have made him that way, it's still a pretty shitty attitude all around.

>>87992888
>should have taken an active part in the drafting of the accords
They weren't up for negotiation and written without the Avenger's input beforehand. They slapped the completed document on their desk and said you either agree or retire and that they're going ahead and passing it in a couple days with or without his blessing. If they actually HAD approached the Avengers and worked with them prior, it probably wouldn't have turned into such a shitshow. But them giving the Avengers 0 time or chance to help with the Accords is a HUGE red flag and exactly why Ross couldn't be trusted.

The Accords puts the power in the hands of the people that the world needs saving FROM half the time in the MCU. Half the team ending up in the raft prison after one incident where they tried to go off to stop a villain without Ross's blessing shows that there's 0 wiggle room for them. Tony himself acknowledged that and went off on his own- exactly what his teammates were imprisoned for.

The Winter Soldier movie shows perfectly what happens to an enhanced individual when their choices and actions are taken away from them by a respected and trusted authority- Pierce using Bucky as his personal assassin.

All the Accords does is slow their crucial response time down or prevents them from helping out a country currently on the UN's shitlist, or even being used as a potential army force in conflicts. It doesn't keep the Avengers making mistakes, it doesn't stop collateral damage, it doesn't stop other countries or private individuals from challenging them as per Vision's weirdass logic. "Our mere presence invites challenge" or whatever, because the Accords don't make you stop fucking existing. I don't even see how that's an argument.

Plus Tony doesn't even follow his own side or what it supposedly stands for, breaking the Accords right out of the gate on several occasions during the movie. How can Tony be "right" when he didn't believe in it himself.

>>87992644
Hydra would want evidence that Bucky completed his mission, as him not doing so would mean their brainwashing was not working meaning the other WS's would be a risk.

Putting cameras on a roadside is not that far-fetched for Hydra.

>>87992394
>Captain America is a liberal
>Iron Man is a conservative
Not hard to understand

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>>87991468
Benis, yes.

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>>87993721
>Iron man is the conservative

Yeah okay.

>>87993546
Tony was being pragmatic, more than anything else.

Also, he did not realise how restrictive the Accords are?

>>87993819
That would be retarded. How is it pragmatic to agree to something you don't even know about?
A big part of Tony's endorsement is because he was spreading his guilty conscious to everyone and ontop of that he's a fucking hypocrite as always.
>>87992888
To be fair it was only one movie but it was basically Hydra infiltrating EVERYTHING and the conspiracy persisted even if they hacked away at most of it.

>>87991350
yes

>>87992644
"We can change the accords later" was a bullshit justification from Tony that was proven wrong anyways when Ross back stabbed him

>>87993819
Supporting something without understanding the limitations and consequences and how it traps you from being able to act independently where needed is... exactly why he was wrong. Did he even read it before attacking his friends at the airport for the same actions he himself took? He seemed to have prior knowledge about this before it got dropped in the rest of their laps, he told Steve that they could "change" some of it later even though that's absolutely not how it works and an admission that the Accords were not right as is.

Tony choosing to drag underaged Peter into the fight, him going to Siberia after finding out the truth, him allowing Cap to rescue his teammates who got caught up in this shit for only trying to stop a villain shows that Tony himself does not actually believe in the limitations and restrictions of the Accords and is willing to break them when it suits his needs.

Tony was reacting under pressure, he was trying to make things right with Pepper, he was trying to atone for his mistakes with Ultron, but he absolutely was not right and even he knew it. At least Rhodey wasn't a hypocrite and actually believed in what the Accords stood for.

> Tony's guilt is distorting his judgement.

> Steve's desire to hold onto his past distorts his judgement.

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>>87993794
>HEY EVERYONE! PLEASE SIGN UP FOR THIS SHIT OR ELSE I'M GOING TO ARREST YOU EVEN IF YOU'RE MY FRIEND!
Do you need me to spell it out some other way?

>>87994441
So, Obamacare?

>>87992888
Honestly, I would trust Cap over any government.

>>87994503
>arrest you
>tax you a couple hundred bucks
Exactly the same thing

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>MUH SON YOU KILLED MUH SON!!!
>I'm sorry ma'am but we were trying to stop an evil robot from killing literally everyone on the planet
>HE DINDU NOTHIN
>I guess you're right. Better betray the trust of my best friend and team
>I hope one of them didn't kill my parents
The "genius" Tony Starke everyone

>>87991350
The movie could have been resolved by them having an actual full on debate instead of talking around each other and fighting. The worst part is that they had TONS of time and opportunity to just talk it out. It's just too much of a contrivance.

>Tony thought his parents died in a car crash
>Bucky brutally beat his father to death
>strangled his mother to death
>no autopsy was performed
Its clear that took place in the 90s. Forensics weren't as good as they were today but a coroner would most likely be able to tell whether someone died from a car crash or being strangled.

So no thorough autopsy was performed on quite possibly the wealthiest man in the world at that time?

>>87991350

>What if there's somewhere we need to go and they won't let us
>later in the same movie
>Stark brings Ross the evidence that Zemo was the terrorist all along and says they need to start looking for him
>Ross: fuck off I don't give a shit

yeah, he was

>>87995225
I know the logic chain is hard for you to wrap your pretty little rainbow marxist hair vehicle around, anon, but government is a monopoly on violence. That's literally it's simplest description. And taxes will be backed up with arrest...... by people with GUNS... who will MAKE you do what they say... If you do not comply.

Sure, this is rare - But it's still how the process is designed.

But the accords werent a liberal / conservative issue anyway. It was an authoritarian / libertarian one, and lefties are currently deep on the authoritarian edge.

>>87991595
>There is no sane version of the world, not even the fucked up MCU, where that makes a lick of sense.

In Cap's first movie the government officials put him on display in propaganda shows instead of letting him fight nazis like he was supposed to. He didn't actually become a hero until he disobeyed orders and jumped into the fight anyway.

In Cap's second movie, the Secretary of Defense turned out to be secretly leading the world's most advanced conspiracy to kill off millions of people. The only reason he was stopped was because (1) Fury decided to go off on his own, hire a bunch of pirates to attack his own ship and steal the data that would expose him and (2) Cap was willing to go behind his back, keep the data hidden, and go completely underground and off the grid to fight him.

In both of Cap's first 2 movies the officials would have fucked everyone over and it was up to lone individuals to break all the rules and save the day.

Also, in Iron Man you have the lone, almost Randian hero willing to doing the job the government won't, and in his second movie the government is trying to shut him down.

In Ant-Man Hank Pym didn't trust SHIELD with his technology, and if he had, we know it would have fallen into the hands of Hydra back in the 80s.

Also, Jesus, the Incredible Hulk. Just,the entire movie.

>>87995807
>equating taxes to being hunted down and arrested
lol libertarians are always fun to talk to

>>87991350
Tony is kind of always wrong.

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>>87996385

What happens if you don't pay your taxes? At the end f the day everything the government tells you to do has the threat of violence behind it.

>>87991595

Accountability is for sure needed and Cap himself would agree with that. His whole point was just that you can't blindly trust in government because their intentions are even less pure. He was proven right in this by Ross.

Tony was wrong because his move for accountability was designed as an escape from his feelings of guilt. He ignored Cap's warnings about the Accords because he was emotionally comprised and didn't want to see the problems. Ross then proceeds to dick Tony around once the Accords are signed, which again proved Cap right.

>>87995678
HYDRA had the records changed. Stark was still involved with SHIELD at the time I believe, and HYDRA had (mostly) infiltrated the agency by then.

>>87996527
Don't recall him being assaulted or mistreated in any way.

>>87991350
I still haven't seen this. Is there a good rip anywhere I can find?

>>87996819

nice job moving the goalposts. But yeah,if he kept resisting, eventually, what do you think would have happened?

>>87991398
>Steve was wrong
No, he was right for the right reasons. Tony was wrong for the wrong reasons.

>Be Cap in your first movie
>Try to do good
>Government tries to stop you
>Defy government and save the world from nazis
>Be Cap in the Avengera
>Working for the government again
>Woops, looks like they're using nazi technology to try and fight aliens
>Selflessly rush into danger to save the world from aliens
>Government tries to nuke the city
>Be cap in your second movie
>Still working for the government
>Find out they're trying to put DNA scanning death machines in the sky and that one of your teammates helped them
>Government tries to arrest you
>Oops, turns out the government is actually nazis
>Topple the nazis and save the planet for the third time
>Be Cap in Avengers 2
>Teammate that built DNA scanning death machines for the nazis ends up making a super powerful robot that wants to destroy all human life
>Looks like its up to you to save the world for the fourth time
>Be Cap in your third movie
>Government wants to blame you for a few hundred people dying and want you and your team to be UN puppets
>Teammate who helped the nazis make DNA scanning death machines and built a robot that wanted to destroy humanity agrees with them because some black lady said her son died
>Government tries to kill your friend without proof that he did anything
>Try to help him
>Government tries to arrest you
>Find out the bad guy behind everything
>Nope, turns out the head of the government is corrupt and still wants you arrested
>Teammate who helped the nazis make DNA scanning death machines and built a robot that wanted to destroy humanity helps get your friends arrested and then tries to kill your war buddy because the nazis that he helped killed his parents

Cap has consistently shown he is the only person in the entire MCU with sound mind and the better interest of the world in mind. Every single movie is the government fucking people over and Cap stepping in and fixing shit. If anyone should be leading the Avengers, it should be him.

>>87991350

Tony is the reason for most of the shit that happened in the MCU. And then when it's time to be a hero he tries to kill Bucky and Cap while Zemo almost gets away.

And the worst thing is he keeps getting away with it.

HE CAN'T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH THIS

No. Cap was about to sign the Accords, which could be and going to be amended anyway, until he learned that Tony was keeping Wanda at the compound. That's when shit hit the fan. If Cap would have signed the papers THEN went off on his own and THEN told Tony "hey, so there's like five other winter soldier dudes," Tony would have been more inclined to believe him. Not to mention Cap took his damn time telling Stark that Bucky killed his parents.

>>87997282
>And then when it's time to be a hero he tries to kill Bucky and Cap while Zemo almost gets away.
That one's on Cap, though; he should have said something. I can't blame Tony for that one. That footage was brutal.

>>87993794
Cap is quite obviously a libertarian, iron man is red party (The opposite of green party)

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>>87997365
This. Also Wanda deserved far worse than confinement in luxury

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>>87997386
Cap's political views are all over the place throughout the MCU.

Tony's the libertarian.

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>>87997374

So Tony was in the right for ignoring the obvious trap, letting the villain escape, and going at a guy he knows was brainwashed for the last 50 years?

>>87997394
>6 months after that
>he's still at it
Wanda did nothing wrong.

>>87991350
Did you see the third act? Because by the end of the movie that's clearly the case.

>>87991414
If Cap had done nothing, Bucky would've been ambushed and killed. Were you just not paying attention?

>>87997365
There is no reason to sign the accords though. The only amendment that could be made that make them worth signing would be "btw Cap does his own thing because he's proved he's the only competent and level headed person in the MCU" and that just defeats the purpose of them all together.
>Tony would have been more inclined to believe him
Then that's on Tony, not Cap. Cap shouldn't have to sign away his freedom to be trusted when he tells a teammate that there's 5 Winter Soldiers waiting to be woken up by a terrorist.
>Not to mention Cap took his damn time telling Stark that Bucky killed his parents.
>>87997374
>That one's on Cap, though; he should have said something. I can't blame Tony for that one. That footage was brutal.
How do you expect that conversation to go down? "Uh hey, my best friend killed your parents. I guess you could have figured that out when you hacked into SHIELD's files, or when Widow released all of HYDRA's secrets onto the internet, or maybe Widow could of told you too, or maybe you could have put 2 and 2 together for yourself, but yeah, I guess I'm the one who has to tell you this so that it doesn't ruin our friendship at the most convenient point in time and you fuck everyone over."

>>87991414
First off, Cap is a soldier. He's not afraid of killing the bad guys. Second off, he probably figured that someone not only able to go toe-to-toe with him, but also Bucky, would be strong enough to catch the bridge that fell 20 feet. It wasn't attempted manslaughter.

Cap is Trump.

>>87997491
>There is no reason to sign the accords though.
They went over this in the movie, or at least Natasha did. They sign them to shut the public up, which they needed at the time.

>Cap shouldn't have to sign away his freedom
Again, Tony, or at least the movie suggests that Stark is planning to sign while "crossing his fingers" so to speak. Cap didn't believe in laying low for a bit then going to find Bucky.

>How do you expect that conversation to go down?
Who cares how it goes down? Cap should have told him, period. How long was it from TWS to CW? You'd think that in that period, Cap would have told him (given how the trailers were pushing that they were such close friends, even though they clearly were never that amicable to each other, but that's a whole other topic).

>>87997411

Tony was only libertarian in the first 2 movies, Cap is libertarian af all the way through.

Captain America was a food man. I just saw this movie recently and Avengers 2. It was cool how he could nearly lift Mjlonir.

>>87997650
>(given how the trailers were pushing that they were such close friends

Eh? Both Avengers movies end with them gaining a newfound respect for one another but it never really goes past "coworkers who get along pretty well" and it's never really implied to.

>>87997365
>If Cap would have signed the papers THEN went off on his own and THEN told Tony "hey, so there's like five other winter soldier dudes," Tony would have been more inclined to believe him.

[citation needed]

>>87997650
You'd think that Tony would have figured it out by then. In the Avengers, he hacked into SHIELD and learned "all its dirty secrets". HYDRA not apart of that? Ok, then what about when Natasha flooded Hydra's secrets onto the internet? Think nobody would have found "Captain America's best friend brainwashed into killing Iron Man's parents" on there? No nerd would have blown the lid on that? And what about Natasha? She saw the same god damn thing Steve did, but we have to hold Steve accountable for that, right? Natasha is just totally incapable of telling anyone anything so she certainly couldn't tell Tony that Bucky killed his parents.
Furthermore, I ask you why it is even necessary that Steve shares this information? Let's just pretend that there is no way Tony could have found out without Steve telling him. Why was it necessary for him to know anyway? So it could put more strain on their relationship and give Tony more of a reason to hunt Bucky down right from the start? You're acting like Tony knowing this beforehand would have made everything hunky dory when I bet it would have made things worse.

>They sign them to shut the public up
Yes, and then fuck themselves over because they went and signed a contract with the world government to "shut the public up". What they should have done is gone on TV and told everyone that if it weren't for the Avengers, millions to EVERY person, depending on which movie you're watching, would be dead, so they should be happy that less than 200 people got hurt. That's a FANTASTIC track record all things considered.

>Stark is planning to sign while "crossing his fingers"
That's not the kind of person Steve is. He's of a stronger moral fiber than Tony. He understands that when you sign a contract with the world government, you're kind of bound to it, so it's probably not a good idea to sign it and then flip everyone off later when you decide you don't want to be a UN errand boy anymore.

>>87997790
I bet he could lift Mjlonir but he pretended he couldn't to save Thor's ego.

>>87997769
Tony's an-cap through and through with a bit of neo-con.

>>87997365
>Cap was about to sign the Accords, which could be and going to be amended anyway

How do you know that? We're never even given any indication that any of the Avengers had a chance to read the document in its entirety. Ross shows up, dumps this thousand-page tome on their desk and says it's being ratified in a couple days and if they don't sign they're being forced into retirement. At what point is the possibility of amending it presented as anything more than wishful thinking on Tony's part? If anyone was interested in input from the Avengers, don't you think they would have asked for it during the drafting process? People don't generally plop ultimatums on you out of the blue when they're willing to make compromises.

>>87996850
here: www.killyourself.org
git gud faggot

>>87997894
>Tony's an-cap

not in Civil War he ain't

>>87991595

The accountability shouldn't be to a government that couldn't tell it was infiltrated by literal thousands of Nazi's and it shouldn't go to the guy who insists on antagonizing giant monsters with no real plan.

I never got Stark being pro reg though. Dude was harassed by those same nazi's and got into a shit flinging contest with Ross after what should have been a career ending fuckup.

>>87997912
Same thing that happened with the Omnibus Bill. Thousands of pages dumped in front of Congress with less than 24 hours left until it had to be voted on. Of course nobody read it, but they were told that they all got what they wanted and that was good enough for them.

>>87994012
>To be fair it was only one movie but it was basically Hydra infiltrating EVERYTHING and the conspiracy persisted even if they hacked away at most of it.

A world where you can literally trust no one is a world where civilization doesn't work at all.

>>87997812
The first trailer has that "he's my friend/so was I" line when they were never above coworkers. Not even adding the "get along pretty well" because you can count the amount of times they weren't arguing on one hand.

>>87997912
>How do you know that?
>At what point is the possibility of amending it presented as anything more than wishful thinking on Tony's part?
I mean, because Tony said they could be? I'm not saying that Tony himself has that power, but apparently he had a plan to go behind Ross's back, like he did at the end. But if I can go meta for a minute, why add that line in there if they wasn't any possibility to amend them? The answer is that the writers needed points on each side so fans could discuss who was right or wrong.

>>87993546
>Plus Tony doesn't even follow his own side or what it supposedly stands for, breaking the Accords right out of the gate on several occasions during the movie. How can Tony be "right" when he didn't believe in it himself.

Tony is willing to follow the spirit of the law and acknowledge that they should be accountable to someone. He's the rogue cop who breaks the rules to get things done and gets yelled at by the police captain, but at the end of the day he answers to civic authority. Cap on the other hand is saying, "Fuck rules, I do what I want!" He's the Punisher.

>>87998108
>why add that line in there if they wasn't any possibility to amend them?
To show that Tony was blinding himself so that he could make the decision easier and take some responsibility away from himself. That was one of the main points of the movie. Tony has proven time and again that he is incapable of making the right decisions, and now he's at the point where he can't handle being accountable for his own mistakes so he wants someone else to take the wheel.

>>87998262
I'll just have to disagree, anon. I really didn't get any of him trying to shirk responsibility. Hell, he's the one that goes to Falcon to find out where Cap and Bucky are.

>Tony has proven time and again that he is incapable of making the right decisions
I'm going be Tony from AoU for a minute and say he did fly that nuke into the wormhole.

>>87998108
>why add that line in there if they wasn't any possibility to amend them?


Well let's see.The only person who says the Accords can be amended is Tony.Then later, when Tony tries to work with Ross he gets BTFO.

I think the point of including that line is to show that Tony completely misread how the accords were going to work.

>The first trailer has that "he's my friend/so was I" line

Again, that's only from Tony's point of view. It does more to show us that Tony's appraisal of their relationship is warped than anything else.

>>87998397
>I really didn't get any of him trying to shirk responsibility. Hell, he's the one that goes to Falcon to find out where Cap and Bucky are

Yeah, and in the process he admitted he was wrong.That point was him trying to make amends for what he had done before. He was shirking responsibility earlier, and in that scene he was trying to take some of it back.

>I'm going be Tony from AoU for a minute

You mean the guy who created Ultron?

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>>87991350
The impossibility is the narrative is always frame in his favor. Unlike like real life where serious shades of grey exist, the heroes we watch we witness every detail and how it unfolds. The bigger issues is the film didn't make it clear enough for mouth breathers that the accords biggest reason of existences was oversea activities, not internal US issues, basically the governments were shitting their pants that Avengers could cause WW3 by just getting involved with some overseas affair without sanction or clearance. Ross was wanting it to be a power move but it was clear he was aiming more for the idea that when a country gets smashed that have to go through him to get the avengers help. It's nothing like the comics where they were trying to police all capes.
>>87992644
>Cap got butthurt because of Wandas house arrest in a fucking villa eventhough she already killed a lot of people by unleashing the Hulk but lets ignore that.
That piss me off as well, she has done a lot of shit and is damn lucky she hasn't been tried and executed for helping Ultron pull off the shit he did in AoU.

>>87994081
you change legislation by campaigning for it, which tony is good at as shown in iron man 2, he just didn't get around to it yet in civil war

>>87998416
Yeah, man, one post above yours. Agree to disagree. We're just going back and forth at this point.

>>87998465
You too.

>You mean the guy who created Ultron?
That was Tony and Banner, but I meant Tony, of course.

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>>87997979
>I never got Stark being pro reg though.
Because it's how it went in the comics
Which made even less sense

>Tony caused two days of quiptron
>WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH WE SHOULD BE GOVERNMENT PUPPETS
Fucking pathetic.

>>87998542

>Captain America not being on the FREEDOM side

>>87991414

He knew Spidey could catch that


...Right?

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>>87991350
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACL8nKOUoxk&t=736s&list=PL3t6ToE_EmAsSbh37ZQf1fG3mHUlnn56U&index=10

>>87998542

Solely in the context of the movies, it makes sense. Cap was slowly turning into Tony in IM1 (distrusting of goverments) and Tony was slowly turning into Cap (willing to compromise and fight for something greater than himself)

>>87998570
>quiptron

/tv/ is calling you

>>87998960

Cap was willing to disobey orders and break rules in his first movie though

>Cap is willing to do what is right, even when it's not legal

>Tony is willing to bend over and take it in the ass to assuage his guilt

Tony Stark is a weak man. He should just drown himself in a vat of booze instead of trying to drag all superheroes down with him.

>reading Squadron Supreme
>last issue is called Civil War
>it's a bunch of people who don't want to hurt each other fighting in an air-port
Goddammit Marvel.

>>87999151

Pain enjoys company

>>87999151
Tony and Carol in an AA meeting when?

>>87999201
can't fault them for basing a movie off the most based comic they have

just a shame an actual Squadron movie will never happen

>>87999547
Maybe they'll do it during phase 4.
>SS will make more money than the actual Justice League movies
Let me dream, dammit.

>>87999584
there is no possible "fuck you" bigger than Squadron outperforming JL

I'm pretty sure WB would fight that shit tooth and nail legally though.

>>87999744
How could they? These characters are all Marvel properties. Nighthawk is even in the main universe.

>>87991350
Yes, at least as far as the Accords are concerned. As far as the whole Bucky McMommurder affair goes that is a whole other can of worms.

Hydra is an old ass organization and the Hand, even though the Avengers aren't and likely will never go up against them, is old as well. They almost certainly have influence on the UN if not having members actually sitting at the negotiating table.

>>87999787
Because it's 100% a Justice League pastiche. It's not subtle whatsoever.

I'm not saying it's illegal by any means, but they'd still fight it.

>>87999946
So they'd get into an expensive law-suit they had no chance of winning?

>>87999965
>no chance of winning
I wouldn't go that far. Marvel and DC own a joint trademark on the word "Superhero" -- there are far dumber IP rulings out there than blocking a Squadron flick.

But yeah, they could easily threaten that, even if they weren't confident they could win. Marvel then has two options:

1) Spend a lot of time, resources, effort, and money on making a SS movie

2) Make a different movie instead

It's not like anyone in the public knows what the Squadron Supreme is anyway -- literally no one is begging for a movie. It would be so much easier for them to just make a different movie.

Besides, I'm not even sure how they'd work SS into the MCU. The whole point of the original story was that they were basically the only big hitting super heroes around.

>>88000055
>there are far dumber IP rulings out there than blocking a Squadron flick.
Like "Captain Marvel"?
And of course the movie, if it were to be made, wouldn't take place in their main universe.

>>88000055
DC/WB isn't going to fight Disney's legal team.

>>88000102
They could, if they sell everything down to their office supplies to fund the campaign.

>>88000159
I don't think they're that dumb.

>>88000055
>Marvel and DC own a joint trademark on the word "Superhero"

What? I'm pretty sure we've heard the word Superhero in things like Mystery Men that neither company was involved with.

>>87991350
Cap wasn't wrong, but he definitely wasn't right.
And Tony was just a good deal less right than Cap. That's why the drama in this movie works so well.

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>>87997182
Thank you, apparently ignored Voice of Reason. Well summarized.

>>87991350
Right about the Accords, wrong about Bucky

>>87991350
tony was a little puss.
one movie hes going fuck you to the goverment because they want the ironman suit. then he is signing away the avengers because one woman showed him a pic of her dead son. that bullshit pissed me off. how many lives did the avengers save. and one avenger gave his life too. tony needs to be slapped.

Well, you can't say that the MCU isn't spot on with Tony's character.

>NO ONE CAN USE MY WEAPONS FOR DESTRUCTION EXCEPT ME

>>88000081
>Like "Captain Marvel"?
There's a reason the book is called Shazam now.

>And of course the movie, if it were to be made, wouldn't take place in their main universe.

Then there's no chance in hell they'll make it. At least not for a long time.

>>87993721

Liberals want more government intervention you don't even understand your own argument

>>88000102
It doesn't have to be a long fight though. Just threatening a suit turns it into a game of chicken, and Disney has to decide if a single Marvel movie based on unknown characters in a different universe is worth going to bat for.

Most likely, they'd just say "fuck it, just make a Thunderbolts movie instead."

Cap was absolutely 100% in the wrong.

I don't take anyone seriously that pulls this bullshit about THE GUVMENT COULD BE WRONG. If you believe that then you go through the official channels and do something about it.

Cap is setting the precedence for "you don't like what the government says tell them to fuck themselves and take matters into your own hands."

>You were raped
>Rapists gets off because prosecutor doesn't have the evidence to convict by the standards of our justice system
>THE GOVERNMENT IS WRONG, GUN DOWN YOUR RAPIST VIGILANTE STYLE

Multiple people ITT note that Cap wasn't opposed to accountability yet he had no intention of making his thoughts known in a setting where these accords could actually be discussed. He told Tony to cram it and took matters into his own hands, injuring dozens of police just doing their jobs not to mention the damage to infrastructure and civilian casualties.

It doesn't matter if he was right or not. What matters is the law. Which is why you could factually know the man raped you but it doesn't mean you're justified in vigilante retribution.

Tony was doing the best with what he was handed and it's bullshit to completely sideline the issue based on Cap's theoretical ideas about what the government MIGHT say or do. He says they might not let them go where they need to but maybe there's a fucking reason for that sometimes. Cap is some scrawny uneducated kid who was given super steroids. He knows nothing about politics and diplomacy. Hell he doesn't even know much about actual war. He's not an authority on anything. It's like your uncle that fought in Nam going nuts and trying to take the law into his own hand because he can't trust the government anymore.

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>>87991350
They both faced a difficult problem. Steve couldn't come up with a solution. Tony came up with a bad solution.
Tony, as usual, had his heart in the right place, he was trying to fix a problem that he felt guilty about being partially responsible for. But, as usual, he came up with the solution that would fix the problem most directly and immediately, but without stopping to consider what other problems that solution might cause.
That's what Iron man does, in life and in his work, as soon as he has something that looks like it's gonna work, he puts it into practice and just deals with any problems it has as he goes. Just look at the scene in IM1 when he first test out his suit.

>>88000879

That's funny because I don't take seriously anyone uses "proper channels as an argument. The "proper channels" fail all the fucking time.

>yet he had no intention of making his thoughts known in a setting where these accords could actually be discussed

There was no such setting. As has been stated in this thread, the Accords were presented as an ultimatum. The only person who claims they can be amended later is Tony, and then later we see how much weight his word carries.

>injuring dozens of police just doing their jobs

He injured dozens of police that were there to kill a man.

>It doesn't matter if he was right or not. What matters is the law.

I don't know how anyone can say this shit and mean it.

http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/MythWeb.htm

Here, read this. It's an essay by a law professor that explains why belief in the Rule of Law by necessity requires a form of doublethink.

>He says they might not let them go where they need to but maybe there's a fucking reason for that sometimes.

We actually see it happen later in the movie and the reason is "Ross doesn't want to"

>>88001154
>he injured dozens of police that were there to kill a man

Not kill, MURDER. The crimes were attributed to the Winter Soldier, but no proof established and no proof that the man in the room even WAS Bucky. They were there to break into some schmuck's room and shoot him to death, and Lawful Stupid shitposter-kun would insist this is okay because police never, EVER fuck up and get the wrong address, right?


>>88001154
>Ross doesn't want to

And herein lies another problem; Ross is the Secretary of State, NOT a member of whatever UN Council the Accords established to oversee and assign Avenger intervention, and certainly not the entire council. With the Accords in effect at that time it really doesn't matter what Ross fucking wants, he never had unofficial or official "command" over the Avengers (or the Accords shouldn't have been necessary) and certainly doesn't have official command now.

>>87991350

No.

>>87991350
In the comics, Cap was right.
In the movie, Tony was right.

>>88001373
>In the movie, Tony was right.
"I feel guilty so everyone should be beholden to the government" is right? Fuck off m8.

>>87997182
10/10 post.

Man, will Cap ever get the rest he deserves?

>>87997182

also want to signal boost this post

>>87997182
/thread

>>88001242
The US Secretary of State pretty much does run the show.

>>88001154

So because the law doesn't work SOMETIMES that gives people free reign to disobey and discard it? What a great lesson.

You can't pick and choose when you have to obey the law.

>>88002076

No, the lesson is that the law simply exists as a result of individuals exercising their individual judgment and deciding on what is best. So, when I, as an individual, exercise my individual judgment, that is no more or less valid than what the law says because laws aren't fucking magic or divine or special. They are rules made up by people just as fallible as you or me.

"Following the law" makes no sense as a terminal value since the purpose of the law is supposed to be to uphold some moral principle. If the moral principle is not being upheld, then saying "well at least I followed the law" is not going to make the situation any better.

>objectively
>implying objectivity exists
top kek

>>87998493
>That piss me off as well, she has done a lot of shit and is damn lucky she hasn't been tried and executed for helping Ultron pull off the shit he did in AoU.

It's pretty clear that Tony wanted Steve to go "smooth things over" with Wanda. Tony's solution to the problem was obviously doomed to failure, as she had clearly been singled out, and if she's under house arrest, what's the point in signing the Accords? The house arrest would make her signature worthless.

That, and she's soon to be on Mordo's shit-list.
once her realizes what she is capable of.

>>88000879
>DO WHAT THE GOVERNMENT TELLS YOU NO MATTER WHAT
nice
I'm glad we live in a dictatorship instead of a democratic republic

>>88002242
Having said that above, I do think Tony was overall more right than Steve.

Really, the Avengers needed to just sign the Accords and do nothing until a real threat emerged.

I think they should've just signed them and then dealt with any issues down the road
Not much would've changed probably and even if a situation arose where they felt they needed to act for the better interest of the world, and the WSC/UN said no, just do it anyways
What're they gonna do, arrest them? With thor and hulk? Nah

>>88002292

Only problem with that is, Zemo WAS areal threat.

>>88002311

Cap is just too honest to give his word on something with no intention of keeping it like that.

>>88002326
Just be up front about it
"Hey I'll sign this so everyone calms the fuck down about everything but we've gotta change some shit down the road or something will occur that won't permit me to follow these accords because muh honor"

>>88002224

Except in this case Cap just decides that it's LIKELY the government will be wrong. So again you're still defending Cap setting the precedent for ignoring laws for no other reason than your gut feeling.

>>88002412
>Cap just decides that it's LIKELY the government will be wrong

Nope. First he defies them when they send troops to execute a man suspected of a crime. Second he defies them by going after Zemo when he'snot allowed to. He knew they were wrong on both counts. When he SUSPECTED they might be wrong, he was going to quietly retire.

>>88002265

Do you not see the irony in claiming that a DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT OF RULES is a dictatorship and ONE MAN TAKING THE LAW INTO HIS OWN HANDS better represents a democratic republic?

>>88002459
>DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT

The UN ain't that

>GOVERNMENT OF RULES

Doesn't exist; read the essay in >>88001154

>>88002445

Bucky was a terrorist and factually did the things he was being accused of and resisted arrest, violently and with potential to kill, every time they'd gone after him.

And what do you know they didn't execute him on sight as soon as they captured him so???

>>88002471
>Bucky was a terrorist and factually did the things he was being accused of

so you didn't even watch the movie, wow

>And what do you know they didn't execute him on sight

The cops that were sent were specifically going to execute him on sight. War Machine was the one who eventually showed up to take him into custody without executing him. Sharon even said they were given shoot on sight orders.

>>88002467

You're still defending bucking the rules over gut instinct and whenever it suits the person.

By your logic we shouldn't hold cops accountable to our laws and the rights given to people by the constitution. If they really feel you did something wrong like Cap did then they can do whatever they want, like Cap did.

You can't have it both ways and pick and choose what days you'll obey the law and which laws those will be. You know what normal people do when they think the government is corrupt and needs to change? They run for office.

>>88002491

Not being the mastermind behind the bomb doesn't absolve him of literally everything he actually did do including the entire Winter Soldier movie.

No shit they're gonna shoot on sight. They had shoot on sight orders for Osama too and he was an ant on the danger scale compared to Bucky.

>>87991350
Cap was right because it was his movie

Also the government side is always wrong in movies

That's all there is to it

>>88002504
>You're still defending bucking the rules over gut instinct

no, when there's a good reason

>and whenever it suits the person.

yes. If the laws don't suit the situation, who needs them?

>By your logic we shouldn't hold cops accountable to our laws

By my logic we should actually be more conscientious than that and hold cops accountable to our moral principals.The law is simply the means, not the end.

>You know what normal people do when they think the government is corrupt and needs to change? They run for office.

I really hope your not from the US, the country founded by people who didn't want to pay their taxes.

>>88002076
Judging from the histories of most of history's notable figures, yes you can do exactly that.

>>88002518

The fact that he was mind controlled absolves him of it. And Osama was surrounded by armed guards and was not going to surrender. You claim Bucky resisted arrest, but when did anyone ever try to arrest him prior to War Machine? The one time we see cops go after him it was shoot to kill.

>>88002561

Your idealistic society run on nothing but morals is a pipe dream. You're defending Cap based on an implausible premise that could never be executed. Morals are entirely subjective and primarily influenced by the dominant religion of the region.

If we let morals guide everything gays would still be pariahs.

In the comics Tony was right. In the movie Cap was right.

In the comics superheroes ARE a legitimate problem. Hell, the whole reason the problems started in the comics because some "super" accidentally blew up a school.

In the movie the only real "active" superheroes are the Avengers. They're already working with government supervision. Furthermore all their "accidents" were really unavoidable circumstances.

Except Tony making Ultron. Seriously, fuck Tony in the movies with this "Cry me a river," fake-PTSD and other bullshit.

>>88002633
>If we let morals guide everything gays would still be pariahs.
Got that backwards, champ.

>>88002633

It's funny that you think that because what I'm saying is closer to the world we live in than your idea of rigid laws. Since you bring up gay rights, let me remind you that the recent decision to allow gays to marry in all 50 states comes from a highly controversial interpretation by the supreme court. There was nothing written down in federal law that said gays could marry; rather a few individuals used their own personal judgment to decide it must be the case.

>>88002412
>Except in this case Cap just decides that it's LIKELY the government will be wrong.
Given their track record in the movies? Yeah. They're probably wrong. The accords were simply a way to turn the Avengers into un-opinionated and order-taking lackeys, in which case led them open to corruption from shitty orders. Like what already happened in the movies. A few times.

>>88002633
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Are you perhaps thinking of mores?

>>88002459
What you would say would make sense except for...

>Democratically elected government...

And also...

>Assuming that government isn't shamed by the fact they can't actually protect their own people and "one man" taking it into his hands did.
And this is even with stealing Iron Man's technology.

>>87991595
>There is no sane version of the world, not even the fucked up MCU, where that makes a lick of sense.

It makes complete sense when every government is usually being controlled by some evil thing whether it's an angry god or ultra nazis.

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>MUH PARENTS

No, Tony was being a faggot.

>>87991595
A classical system's slave.

>>87991595
It's really far simpler than that. It boils down to, "We are not owned by our government and are free to act on our own conscience as long as we believe we are doing the right thing."


It's a fairly simple point. Only statists cucks would disagree.

>>88002744
Yeah. What kind of lunatic goes around attacking people because his parents died ages ago?

>>88002864

OH SNAP

>>88002864
Yeah, but Batman would have sided with Captain America.

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>>88002864

Batman doesn't ki---wait a second

>>88002882
No he wouldn't. If there's even a 1% chance that Bucky is a crazy killer, we must treat it as an absolute certainty.

>>88002914
God fucking damn it. You win. Here are my sides. Don't spend them all in one place.

>>88002311
Lagos was really none of the Avenger's business. There was no alien invasion or huge threat to humanity to justify their going on such a mission.

Thor, Hulk, Scarlet Witch, and Vision should not be doing any of that trivial street level stuff, and should only be called up for serious alien threats.

>>88002614
Osama was killed because embarrassing shit about the CIA sucking his dick in the 80s and 90s would have come out if he went on trial.

>>88003218
Thor and Hulk weren't doing it though.

If Vision believes they invite challenge, why did he not suggest they all retire?

Problem solved.

>>88003255

neither was Vision

>>88003265

Whats funny is Vision's entire hypothesis is contradicted by the past movies. In the first Avengers, the team is formed in response to a larger threat, not the other way around. And then even Ultron mentions in the second one how "Invaders create Avengers"

In other words Vision's analysis got causality reversed.

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>>88002638
No in comics Tony was even wronger than in the movies.
For all the corruption and ineptitude the MCU government gets up to the 616 makes that look like a fucking utopia.
Even ignoring the fact that Cap rebelled against the SHRA because Maria Hill illegally tried to arrest him for saying he didn't like it and wouldn't become her goon to round up those that resisted BEFORE IT WAS EVEN PASSED.
And the issue is completely based around the fact a villain was a fucking villain.
And the SHRA in action was a total shitshow that was handed over to a literal insane supervillain a year later.

Cap was right.

>>88003280
Technically the invasion came to town because Thor. Though Thor came to town because Loki's bullshit.

>>87991350
Stork didn't have all the facts, he didn't know what was going on, he was focusing on the wrong thing, but for fucks sake all Capton Amorica had to do was say "There's a guy who framed bucky for everything and he's about to break into the base where bucky was brainwashed and re-activate the 5 more winter soldiers, we'll deal with this other shit later, we need to focus on this guy" and the whole situation would have been averted.

Retardedly written movie, this is one instance where they should have done a 1 to 1 adaptation of the comic book. Spiderman had literally no fucking reason to be in it.

>>88003698

The Invasion came because of SHIELD doing Phase 2 experiments

>>88003764
>but for fucks sake all Capton Amorica had to do was say

he tried saying that at the airport, Iron Manlet wouldn't listen

>this is one instance where they should have done a 1 to 1 adaptation of the comic book

nevermind, I now see this is bait

>>88003779
At the airport he sounded like he was stalling and didn't even try to mention that there was a larger villain plot thing going on.

The "scarlet witch throws a grenade into an embassy, 10 people died" wasn't nearly as much of a significant story point as "d-list clutz heroes cause explode man to explode a school full of kids"

The accords also had nothing to do with superhero registration, it was just that the avengers now answer to the UN, completely threw away spiderman's significance in the story.

>>87991595
>heroes, like fucking everyone else, need to be held accountable
If that were true, why wasn't he stripped of all his assets and thrown into a dark cell after the Ultron fiasco? Why didn't he resign as a hero and give up his fortune to help everyone affected and their families? All he did was some token cash tossing.

>>88000879
I actually would say that vigilante retribution is justified in that case. It shouldn't be legal, because that sets a terrible precedent, but morally speaking, it's justified.

>>88003886
He's super smart so the world needs him.

>>87991595
>heroes, like fucking everyone else, need to be held accountable

No it wasn't

It had nothing to do with accountability

Accountability happens AFTER the action

The sirkovia accords were that no action should be taken until a political committee has gotten together and voted on it

>>88003838
>didn't even try to mention that there was a larger villain plot thing going on.

He said, "hear me out. The psychiatrist is behind everything" and then Tony cut him off.

>>88003838
>didn't even try to mention that there was a larger villain plot thing going on.

Yes, he did.

>>88002914
Bucky's not a nigh-invincible god-like being from another planet.

You're comparing a sparkler to a nuke.

>>88004310
>nuke
Captain, do you know where Thor and Banner are?

>>87991404
> tfw you and your gf get wet at the same time in the theater

>>88003919
Also strict control. Anyone that thinks The Raft wasn't going to be their "Base" regardless the outcome is nuts.

>>88004216
>>88004295
Oh come on he could have gone a lot harder then that

I seriously think if I was in his place I could have gotten through to iron man

>>88004356

sure thing

>>87997979
Stark was feeling super guilty after someone got in his face, and the reoccurring character trait for MCU Tony is that whenever he feels guilt he overreacts, its what led to him shutting down the weapon development side of the company or making the flying Iron Man armor and jetting off to kill terrorists in the first place.

>>88004353
>Anyone that thinks The Raft wasn't going to be their "Base" regardless the outcome is nuts.

Actually, I never thought of that. But it makes sense. Would totally fit in with the UN wanting to basically turn the Avengers into a group of Winter Soldiers.

>>87998960
Cap was never willing to compromise. He was always on the side of freedom and justice and he did what he had to to fight for it.

>>88003770
>The Invasion came because of SHIELD doing Phase 2 experiments

Nah, Loki and Thanos would have made a move for the Tesseract no matter where on Earth it was.

>>88004952
Thor literally states that shield's experiments were a beacon announcing that the earth was ready for a higher form of war

>>87998542
People saying Cap should be pro-registration just because he's Captain AMERICA is dumb, do they forget about stuff like Nomad? He's more than willing to stand against or apart from the government.

The reason he went Anti-Reg in the comics is because he didn't agree with and voiced that disagreement with the act well before it was actually voted into power and refused to lead the cape killer that were being planned out so they went crazy and set a hundred Shield soldiers on him, like the times supervillains took over the country.

>>88004993
Thor didn't know about Thanos's real motivation yet.

>>88005028
>do they forget about stuff like Nomad?
I wouldn't blame people for wanting to.

>>87994441
So a liberal?
Modern american liberals aren't classic liberals, when foreigners like me say we are disgusted at americans it's not just because of those evil rednecks you hate so much, Johnny boy.

>>88005060
He's also gone by the likes of "The Captain" when doing stuff opposed to the wishes of the American government, point being this isn't his first time not playing ball with The Man just because they are the US Government.

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I don't know why the Avengers slowly turned into a bunch of glorified vigilantes. They were working alongside the Government during the Busiek era just fine. ESPECIALLY Steve Rogers.

>>88005416
Liberal in US context is completely different. It's like a unholy mix of leftwing identity politics, marxist materialist worldview, neo-liberal economic policies and neo-conservative foreign policy (Obama, Clinton).

>>88005485
What happened to the mansion?

Or the fact they had Avenger's meetings with an established Chairman position, in a hall with a viewscreen above the podium?

They don't explain it in the movies but the reason they didn't want to register was because you had to reveal your secret identity to the masses, and while not enough superheroes are yet to be established in the MCU, they just went to the muh freedom bit

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>>88005547
The Mansion got destroyed by Wanda wasn't it? And yeah, those meetings were comfy, Jarvis had the best treats and beverages ready all the time. But eating cookies and drinking tea isn't edgy enough for today's Avengers. Wonder what Busiek thinks about Bendis' Avengers.

>>87991350
>muh political sybolisms

>>88003886
>Why didn't he resign as a hero and give up his fortune to help everyone affected and their families?
He did resign into a active non-combatant role, and the Stark Foundation was active during and after the Ultron Fiasco. They probably COULD jail Stark, but then they'd be imprisoning their biggest asset against any threat, foreign of domestic. Don't forget Stark's more or less one of the most competent and resourceful people in the world.

In addition, the biggest reason he wasn't jailed is that the Ultron that came to be wasn't really his creation so much as the AI that Strucker originally planned to use for his robot army. It was a side effect of running simulations on the program, and that program ended up taking control. Tony TRIED to let it interface with the Iron Legion AI, but he failed, and Jarvis merely ran simulations from there. Tony failed to create Ultron; Ultron ended up birthing himself by interfacing with the internet.

Stark did exactly what he said he was going to do; study the staff and run some tests. The Ultron that ended up taking control of the Iron Legion was a freak accident born of conditions that would be completely safe in normal circumstances.

That, and everything Ultron did wasn't really Tony's fault. You don't get jailed if your kid shoots up a school. Tony actively dealing with the situation himself and preventing the apocolypse (twice, if the count the time before) probably helped.

>>88005576
>>88005485
What do the hundred different groups calling themselves Avengers even do in modern comics?

They either gather around in a random apartment eating Chinese food and talk about fighting the man or lounge about in one of Tony Stark's skyscrapers?

But there is an actual government-based team ran by Carol that have random generic facilities they stand around in? Or is that the team called The Ultimates instead of The Avangers now that the Ultimates Universe is gone?

>>88005715
>, the biggest reason he wasn't jailed is that the Ultron that came to be wasn't really his creation so much as the AI that Strucker originally planned to use for his robot army.

Actually, it's because the rest of the world has no idea that Stark had anything to do with Ultron.

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These characters are heavily nuanced and complicated.

It drives people nuts, that they cant put them in perfect little black and white boxes. They are complicated.

just like real life.

>>87991350
Only an idiot teen Americanwould side with captain fascist intervensionism. Tony was a tool, but rational. Steve position is I know best and that he know best.

I want to remind that in Europe suspect terrorists are killed the minute they are found, bucky should had go to the first police station he could find after knowing about the attack and ask for cap to explain everything. Even better when he escaped he should had moved to a forest in Alaska or Chile or Russia, alone, not to a European city. Ross is also irrelevant to Steve's position. If a county wants to elect Hitler as their leaders Steve has no right to choose for said people. Steve is literally Bush on irak.

>>87995695
>>Stark brings Ross the evidence that Zemo was the terrorist all along and says they need to start looking for him
>>Ross: fuck off I don't give a shit

And then Tony went regardless just like how Cap could have signed that shit and chase Bucky regardless.

Cap was an idiot

>>87997182
retard alert

>>87998960
>>quiptron
but its true, the real Ultron wouldn't make a loney toons pose when he is about to be defeated

>>87991350
>>87991350
depends on what part you're talking about.
Clearly Tony is a hypocrite who goes off his law-and-order train in order to kill a guy without due process. Clearly Cap is morally compromised by not working harder to bring in his mentally unstable, brainwashed killing machine friend.

Cap is right to stand down and not participate in the enlistment of superheroes by the government if he believes that it's wrong. Tony is... in a more morally complex position, but far from wrong, by taking a place in a problematic system and trying to control or fix it from within to minimize the harm.

But really, they're both wrong, because they both end up taking principled, uncompromising, opposite positions on a subject too complicated to devolve into a dichotomy.

But at the end of the day
Steve resuiting to save his pal was unconscionable, and he more or less proves the validity of the sokovia accords as an idea. He should go to jail.
Tony is a hypocrite guilty of a list of crimes. He should also go to jail.