Why are Claremont's Uncanny X-men so fucking good. From

>>87744679
Given the choice between Whedon and Claremont, who would you choose?

>>87744679

I think the main reason (and also the reason why his last few issues and his various returns have been meh) is that Claremont belongs to the generation of comics creators who found out that they could not dictate the course of story in a superhero universe they didn't own. Claremont's X-saga was one of consecutive and constant change, where characters and situations changed permanently to give new status quos and personalities. But as Claremont began to discover, Marvel editorial had different ideas about what should happen in the titles and was not above overriding him and backsliding his changes.

One good example is Wolverine. When introduced, he was a frothing, antisocial berserker, a poor team player and disruptive towards his teammates. Over Claremont's stories he slowly evolved into a calm, collected, deadly warrior and a reliable teammate.But editorial knew that readers liked the frothing berserker asshole Wolverine, so they began farming out Wolverine stories to other writers, which rankled Claremont because those stories went with Wolverine as he had been when Claremont started writing him, not as he was then.

Other examples are editorial nixing Jean's survival of Phoenix saga and editorial bringing Jean back for X-Factor without Claremont's approval.

The final straw came in the late 80s when editorial told Claremont that he would now be getting story ideas and concepts from his artists, especially Jim Lee, and he would have to follow those because Lee was a superstar artist who was making a splash. There was literally no consideration that it was Claremont's writing which had turned X-men from an obscure canceled title into marvel's flagship, no faith that he could continue to chart the course of the franchise, no acknowledgement that HE was a superstar. So Claremont tended his resignation and left with an almost self-mocking story arc where Magneto reverts to being a generic villain (in X-Men #1-3)

>>87744817

The characters in that story even comment on how out of character this is, and a hamfisted plot device is needed to resolve it. Ironically, X-Men #1 became the best selling US comic of all time. Even more ironically, Jim Lee left Marvel to found Image only a few issues after Claremont, leaving the X-Men franchise run fully by editorial and their stooge writers like Scott Lobdell. Not that Claremont has any resentment towards Lee, they have worked together since, it was more editorial that Claremont hated.

Whenever he's returned since he's had the outlook that nothing he does matters, so he may as well just do whatever random thing tickles his fancy at the time. It's a sad fall from grace for him, but totally understandable.

>>87744740
Claremont.

Whedon was good, but it was essentially a love letter to Claremont.

And it was too slow and decompressed.

Late era Claremont is worse than Whedon though.

>>87744679
Is he still alive by the way?

And is he still writing comics?

I'm going to google that.

Basically this: >>87744817

To expand on what that anon wrote, I love the shifting tones and long term character development. The sense of dread that hangs over the title after the Mutant Massacre is incredible, and it really feels like you're going somewhere. The aforementioned editorial meddling may have prevented the planned conclusion of those arcs but the tone remains picture perfect. That mastery of tone may be Claremont's greatest skill.

Character development! Storm starts out as distant, viewing herself as a goddess, slowly reveals her caring side, becomes aware of her own mortality during the original brood saga, has a crisis and starts dressing punk, revels in danger, loses powers after being zapped by Forge's gun, realizes she had to get it together and becomes a more cunning leader, and finally when the Mutant Massacre happens, decides with a heavy heart that in this dark world they may have to kill some enemies. She goes from thinking Wolverine is uncouth, to respecting him after they've been through tough times, to ultimately using him as her right hand when she's leader. I love her outrage at the massacre and her telling Wolverine to bring a Marauder to her for questioning then noting he can "do what he wants to the rest of them."

How was the Nightcrawler book?

>>87744965
Yeah, there was an interview with him recently talking about the current state of X-Men and how Marvel is sidelinning them because of the movie rights.

>>87744740
Are you talking about current CLaremont or old Claremont?

Meh, who am I kidding. Not even current Clarmeont is as shit as Whedon was.

It really is, I've been reading his run for the first time the past few months having already read most the modern stuff (Whedon, Morrison, Bendis) and the 80's X-Men has a charm to it that no modern comic i've read can match, I really love the characters and how they progress over the years, he always kept them fresh and interesting.

>>87744679
He sold his soul to Mephisto/Satan/Morpheus.

>>87745195

Also the ongoing slow-boil plot of the New Mutants becoming the next X-Men, which eventually was derailed and now they're just random kids forever. Magneto reforming and becoming a teacher. Cyclops retiring PERMANENTLY (not a fake-out).

>>87744845
>Not that Claremont has any resentment towards Lee
That's fine, I'll resent Lee for him. Fucking Psylocke

>>87745195
>and it really feels like you're going somewhere
As someone who read these when they came out, MM was just another event series where the characters got shat all over, and I considered it a sign of burnout. I *really* disliked the idea that the MU's attitude towards mutants was a status quo, whether that was Claremont's thing or editorial's.

>>87745360
>Magneto reforming and becoming a teacher.
Ironically for a guy who absolutely HATED backstory (Rogue, Arcade, Wolverine), he was dedicated to character development. Mags as a teacher humanized him.

>>87745348
>Not even current Clarmeont is as shit as Whedon was
Whedon was great

Not perfect, and I can't imagine reading it back when that came out (since basically nothing happens in one issue and it supposedly was late all the time), but it's great to read now when you don't have to wait months for an issue.

I actually like Whedon X-Men better than Morrison X-Men

>>87745678
Whedon reverted all characters to the 80s and almost destroyed every single development they all had had since. The only ones who didn't suffer from this were Cyclops and Emma (which is literally the only good thing he did)

Also his plots were nonsensical at best and retarded at worst.

>>87745722
Considering the 90's was the worst decade for X-Men and the 80's was the best, I don't see how that's a bad thing.

>>87745305
>>87744965
Also. It’s something Bleeding Cool has reported before, but thanks to Hugh Sheridan‘s interview with Chris Claremont, published earlier today, it’s being picked up by a few folk and might be worth repeating.

Both Marvel and DC Comics hire come creators on exclusive contracts. There’s the attraction of guaranteed work and possible health benefits. As well as access to the bigger gigs, a juicer choice of projects and working with other major creators in collaboration. There is however the risk of missing out work elsewhere. It’s a tricky balance to keep, but it’s common for the bigger creators to sign up, at least for a time, with Marvel and DC. And those publisher do like to get their money’s worth.

Most of the time.

Because Chris Claremont is an interesting case. Famed for his run on X-Men, from the seventies to the nineties, that pretty much set in place everything we expect from a modern X-Men comic book – and films – he has had a long running exclusive contract with Marvel. This forbids him from working for any rival US comic book publisher.

But he’s not getting any work from Marvel either. Still they pay him a retainer, enough that he won’t go to DC Comics, or anyone else. That would have to be a considerable sum, and it’s one that they’ve re-upped a number of times. He did write the What If X-Men Forever series, but that was in 2009 and 2010. And there was a short-lived Nightcrawler series in 2014. It’s just there’s been nothing since. But the Marvel cheques just keep coming.

It’s not that he doesn’t want to write, he does. But Marvel don’t seem to want him to write anything.

>>87744679
>Not including his return later, that was crap.
:(

>>87745755
>90s the worst
>X-Cutioner Song
>Age of Apocalypse
how about fuck you, asshole?

>>87745195
I really loved that little moments and hints.
During the Cyclops vs Storm fight (when Storm was depowered), Madelyne is sitting with her baby, and suddenly there is rain, suggesting that Storm was slowly getting back her powers.

Another thing is that even when editorial was giving him a hard time, he was capable of playing along and turning it into gold.
Examples? Dark Phoenix Saga, that little X-factor arc he wrote, Inferno to name only the few.

Also, he didn't dismiss other creations, but instead tried to build up on them. Keep in mind that he embraced Cassandra Nova, and tried to add her depth in X-Men: The End. He liked the ideas of other writers, and he loved the collaboration process

>>87745279
Very good. Claremont toned down his wordiness, and actually tried to be light-hearted fun, with his trademark cliffhangers, albeit the readership nowadays is too cynical to enjoy stuff like this, because we all know that nothing can ever happen in comics, because "muh IPs to farm"

>>87744740
Claremont.
Really dislike Whedon, his X-men isn't bad, just dislike the guy.

>>87746209

He definitely tried his best, but you can tell he really didn't like the Scott-Maddie-Jean thing they were building up in X-Factor, especially from how he ends up using it in X-Men himself. Some things just didn't sit right.

>>87745770
Man, I don't care if they're opposed to him actually writing the X-books, the least they should do is make use of his talents in some form. They could use him as a editor or consultant.

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What a great thread. I'm aware this is entirely because of the handful of anons posting good shit but keep it up.

I'm currently reading through Claremont's run for this first time. I'm really enjoying it and can see why people hold up as one of the best cape runs in history (not convinced it tops Kirby's F4 personally).

The thing that's getting really tough is the fucking reading order. I'm in the #180s and it's getting difficult to know how X-Men, New Mutants and all the minis and events are balanced. Plus there's just the typical editorial shit that sandbags the series. Secret Wars was a fine enough event but it's clear Shooter doesn't closely follow Claremont's run because none of the X-Men act in-character but huge changes happen so it can't be skipped.

I'm worried about the future when it seems like all of this gets even worse. Is there a good chronological Claremont reading guide?

>>87745408
>Ironically for a guy who absolutely HATED backstory
Now, this is a fascinating mention, because a lot of characters had only nicknames, but we didn't know the real names. I mean, what is Forge's real name? Gambit was called Remy Lebeau only after Claremont left.

It also shows a massive difference between X-Men and Avengers, as they are really clandestine team, operating out of the law.

In the end, Claremont planned to slowly desensitize the team, making the X-Men not a team, but rather a movement and idea, concept. But he still wanted to give a fresh new mission after Uncanny X-Men #300 with a massive Shadow King vs X-Men. Shadow King was supposed to be the new archvillain, as Magneto was supposed to go full Shakespearean in terms of character's dynamic

>>87745770
Frankly, that's one of the cases when the corporation did something noble for the creator.
Had Kirby lived, he would probably get the same treatment.

It seems fair that Claremont gets money for his achievements for the company

>>87746257
it's kinda funny, because after Claremont left (due to Harass) he did return year later, and Harass amended his mistake by giving Claremont some editor and overseer job. Claremont was ghostwriting X-Men during Alan Davis era, until he officially returned. All in all, Claremont himself regretted leaving, because had he waited few months, he would have everything back to him to decide

>>87744845
So is editorial why Gen X was his best work? Also what kind of retarded person puts an artist on plot and story? That reminds me of what happened on nu52.

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>>87746249
Of course, but he was a PRO. Just because he didn't like some decision, it didn't mean that he was hacking it off. Even if he hated the thing, he still tried to give his best. Personally, people say that Claremont hated Cyclops, but it seems untrue, just look at the pic related. It's one of the best Cyclops' speeches, and it's written by Claremont.

It's really one of the most powerful moments in X-Men history, and it was in X-Factor

>>87746342
also, keep in mind that the story was editorially dictated. Claremont was a fill-in writer for Simonson, and was supposed to end the Twelve storyline, as well as get rid off Nathan Summers, and he did it in a stellar, heart-breaking way

>>87746342
>>87746360

Yeah, I know. That's the only reason he could make Jim Lee's retarded Psylocke story work. Sort of. Still a major derail for the character but at least Claremont made a traumatizing event which would affect her character.

>>87746262
Kirby's F4 is for connoisseurs.

Claremont is a universal book that you can give to anyone, and they will enjoy it, as it touches universal values, and the core of heroism.

Kirby, on the other hand, offers us some of his imagination and originality. F4 is a little dated, and it's hard sometimes to read without knowing the era in which the stories were created, but they are a great treat for people, who love comics, and they are a good reminder why comics are a great medium. In other words, Kirby's comics are more artistic and they fulfill different needs that people want out of reading comics.

>>87744740
In what way is Whedon's run even remotely as good as Claremont's?

>>87745408
>As someone who read these when they came out, MM was just another event series where the characters got shat all over, and I considered it a sign of burnout

Did you really read Mutant Massacre when it came out? I did and event comics weren't really a thing yet like they are now. Yeah, you had the Secret Wars 2 tie ins before, but this was a cross over that didn't have a flagship narrative book and crossed over outside of the X titles into Power Pack and Thor(!). Also, and I may be mis-remembering, but like you said - this was a crossover where characters did get shit on majorly - I don't recall earlier crossovers having major dire consequences that lasted for years.

>he was dedicated to character development. Mags as a teacher humanized him.

I actually loved that he went this route with Magneto. I felt it worked really well having him in New Mutants.

>>87746262
It becomes a bit of a mess during the Secret Wars and even more so during Secret Wars II. Some good came from the changes though like Magneto joining the X-Men. Just keep reading though, it continues to be great after that.

>>87746389
Yes, exactly. The thing is, notice how differently went Claremont's path, and Byrne's. Byrne nowadays, is more or less isolated from the comics. Despite his achievements, he is in much worse situation, but then again, it's his own fault, and his ego.

>>87746262
Dude, the best is still before you. Genosha, Mr. Sinister, Apocalypse, Reavers, it didn't even start.

Also, Jungle Adventure with Mignola's art, Meltdown mini, Weapon X and Life-Death trilogy by Barry Windsor-Smith. After SWII, the X-men will get into a fully indie / artistic era. It's only going to get better

>>87746436

Byrne was always an egomaniac, even when he got his first writing assignment. Jim Shooter had to tell Byrne and Claremont to knock off their idiotic feud which started because Byrne COULD NOT ACCEPT THAT DR DOOM WOULD BE BEATEN BY THE X-MEN (and show interest in Storm). The man only became worse later, such as when he returned to She-Hulk and declared every issue since he left to be a dream, including Gerber's awesome issues.

Byrne has an ego the size of a planet.

>>87746481
Yes, which is sad, because his Superman and FF runs are one of the best, and I really liked X-Men Hidden Years. He was a very hardworking person, writing, scripting, pencilling, inking, and even coloring by himself, and being very prolific. In terms of work ethics, he was flawless. But probably, when you have such talent, you tend to believe to be a god's gift to humankind. I guess that this is what happened with Byrne.

>>87746516

To each their own, I personally despise his Superman revamp.

>>87746546
Why? He added the new backstory to Krypton, and I loved the motivation behind the costume and the symbol. Sure, he made Lex Luthor into DC's Kingpin, but it caught on

>>87746559

Lex Luthor being a corporate businessman instead of a generic mad scientist was Marv Wolfman's idea. Wolfman was doing Adventurs of Superman concurrent with Byrne's (adjectiveless) Superman and Byrne liked that idea for Luthor so he decided to use it.

I dislike Byrne's issues because like pretty much everything he did after FF it feels hollow and uninteresting. Most issues are constructed around only a single idea (the Joker issue is about showing how Superman's x-ray vision works versus lead) and very few of them build up the mythos or contribute anything really interesting. Byrne doesn't really introduce any ongoing villains or situations that you want to see more of, it's mostly a bunch of short one-and-dones like Bloodsport, Skyhook or Host (though of course later writers bring them back). I agree that his idea for Krypton was intriguing, but he never did anything interesting with it.

All in all it's a very trivial run. It's not iconic, it doesn't introduce an interesting new status quo, or feature any cool character development, and the only big moment happens at the very end when Superman executes the three Phantom Zone criminals.

It's a run that's mostly just gimmicky ideas that Byrne came up with that end up feeling way too thinly spread to even fill out an issue.

>>87744740
Anyone who picks Whedon deserved to be gassed with Inhuman shit. A better question would be Morrison vs Claremont.

>>87746614
Fair enough. I might have higher regard, because it was one of the first Superman stories that I've read. I didn't have a chance to learn more about the classics until I later got some "best of" collections.

A lot of the criticism feels to be due to Byrne mastering the "illusion of change" skill, which he was very fond of, unless he hated something really hard.

In my opinion, his Spider-Man and Doom Patrol revamp was probably his only disastrous era.

But I do agree that there is a lot of gimmick with Byrne's Superman, even if I feel that he understood the character really well and gave some heart to the characterization, as his Metropolis really felt huge and wondrous, almost like a futuristic city, but then again, it might be a DC's thing, which is in opposition to Marvel's more down to earth setting.

>>87746655
Morrisson tried to outdo Claremont, t b h
-Cassandra Nova? The Entity, and Xavier is a jerk trope

-Magneto is a Kirby/Lee terrorist again

-Morrison also completely ruined Genosha to the FUBAR point, as no one after Morrison was capable to make Genosha work again as a concept

-Morrison's last arc feels like an echo to DOFP

-Also, Morrison made Jean Grey Phoenix again.

-Also, Morrison developed further the Weapon X concept, which was a mixed bag. Some people love it, others hate it.

What Morrison did well, that Claremont didn't, was:
-Scemma
-X-Men as a School (albeit it's polarizing as well)
-U-Men and Sublime
-X-Men as an actual minority (albeit the editorials were too afraid of this idea, as they considered it limiting)
Morrison also was good to attract younger readers, due to his slick and clever writing.

However, as I say, not even Morrison was free of Claremontisms, even if he did try to challenge the concept, and move it into different directions and possibilities.

So one could say that Morrison was the last writer that was capable of making X-Men fresh. Gillen and Spurrier almost had it, but they were cut short. I still believe that Spurrier would amaze us with something great, but he would need to have a great, high-profile artist to make his book sell

However, I am butthurt over Morrison's final fuck you trolling the X-Men fans with his Magneto's portrayal.

>>87744740
>>87746655

These are really silly questions. Claremont is the guy that set the table, nothing any other X writer has done is really comparable. Even in breaking away from the Claremont stuff Morrison is still defined by it.

You can't compare DW Griffith and Martin Scorsese or a Ford Model-T and a Ford Taurus.

>>87746805
>However, I am butthurt over Morrison's final fuck you trolling the X-Men fans with his Magneto's portrayal.

I think it was more of a fuck you to editors than fans

>>87746895
http://www.playboy.com/playground/view/the-super-psyche
MAGNETO
First appearance: X-Men #1 (Marvel, 1963).
Created by: Stan Lee, art by Jack Kirby.
Grant Morrison version: Morrison’s run on X-Men lasted from 2001 to 2004.
Morrison: “Magneto’s an old terrorist bastard. I got into trouble—the X-Men fans hated me because I made him into a stupid old drug-addicted idiot. He had started out as this sneering, grim terrorist character, so I thought, Well, that’s who he really is. [Writer] Chris Claremont had done a lot of good work over the years to redeem the character: He made him a survivor of the death camps and this noble antihero. And I went in and shat on all of it. It was right after 9/11, and I said there’s nothing fucking noble about this at all.”

---

I waited for an opportunity to post it.

>>87746915
also, there is this other quote in wizard mag, when he elaborates on the trouble he had into X-Men fans, saying more or less that he enjoyed pissing off X-fans, but I don't have the scan currently

>>87746150
This.
Also, holy tits, how'd you leave out X-Tinction Agenda?

>>87744817
>>87744845
>>87745195
you guys are cool

>>87748034
Heh, I wanted to include that as well, actually.
I don't know why I didn't.

>>87744679
End of Greys was really good though.

>>87746915
Whata cunt.

>>87746262
I actually stop at 175. Shit seems diluted to me after that.
Storm's mohawk is the source of my only real fanboy rage. God, I fucking hate it.

>>87748732
>hating the greatest character development arc of the series

Her changing her look was the start of an incredible change for her character, especially when she eventually loses her powers.

>>87744679

Everyone is making really good points in this thread and I hope Im not contradicting any of them as I expand upon the nature of business, franchises and corporate control in the 80's and 90's

In the 70's marvel was a comic company, and that's pretty much it. In the 80's we saw a shift in Marvels goals with Secret Wars. They wanted in on the toys in a strong way, like star wars, he-man, G.I. Joe they started to push for those sales and made comics to push that. We started getting big event crossovers like Secret Wars. The business side of Marvel wanted this the focus as they started making even more toys in the early 90's and started gearing up with more brand awareness and tie-ins, products, TV shows and movie deals.

This meant all the content needed to be watched more closely and have synergy and the quality of writing wasn't as important. This is what kept the comics selling, but that wasn't the only way to make money. They needed flashy characters and diverse teams and status quos maintained. Things needed to be episodic. Under this new business plan writers were expendable.

This is one reason marvel suffered so greatly when the bubbled burst in the 90's. They pushed so hard to become more than just a comic book brand, when that hit a crash it almost went away completely.

>>87748732
I'm with Taskmaster on it, it's hot as fuck.

>>87746481
Doom being beaten and then developing a thing for Storm? That's kinda neat actually.

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>>87748732
>Storm's mohawk is the source of my only real fanboy rage
Nigga, you gay.

>>87746516
I dislike his FF run. It lacks optimism. I didn't get past the point where Reed and Sue move to the suburbs. I also think he should not ink his own work. Austin or Sinott looked way better.
I love him on X-men, though, but I have to admit that I vastly prefer Cockrum.

>>87748768
I really, really, really like the original design.
It is one of my favorite designs ever.
I lean more towards Brood saga type stuff than Life Death or whatever it was, anyway. Which is also why I lose interest in the 180's.

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>>87748816
>gay
Let's not get silly, anon.

>>87746655
>comparing morrison's run to Claremont's
You're cruisin' for an Inhuman gassin' too, you know

>>87748803
Dude, it was Claremont's run. EVERYONE wanted some Stormin'.
Dracula also had the hots for her, and ended up liking her personality as well.

Not sure, but maybe even Emma wanted some in the first Hellfire Club arc.

>>87746931
>>87748514
Based Morrison

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>>87748854
I didn't like it at first but it grew on me after a while. I mean they weren't just changing her look to be edgy or anything, there was good reason for it.

>>87749054
Why is he based for shitting on another's work and creating something bad in the process? That's what that hack Bendis does, and no one likes him either other than sjw cucks.

>>87749202

It's exactly what the X-Men needed at the time and ignoring Morrison's contributions is why the X universe went straight back to the shitter again after he left

>>87746262
I'm not too precious about these things so I suggest just reading through uncanny, periodically binging what you've missed in NM and X-Factor.

I also recommend you don't neglect annuals, minis, and solo spin offs. Specifically,

the Asgardian War stuff from New Mutants Special Edition and Uncanny Annual 9
The Wolverine stuff by Claremont and John Buscema
Weapon X
X-Men vs Fantastic Four
The Alan Davis annuals
The X-Cutioner mini during Inferno (written by Simonson but if you're reading the whole event it's not too be missed)

Also, if you find yourself dissatisfied with the era after Claremont's departure then check it out the chunk of Excalibur when Alan Davis is writing and drawing it. It's basically the perfect "ending" to Claremont's run, even if he didn't write it.

There a torrent for claremont's runs with tie ins? I only found a deadpool chache.

>>87749240
It took bendis to fix some of the shit he pulled off. BENDIS.

Not on purpose, but it then led to good runs, like Peter David's X-Factor. And then Yost's run.

It took Whedon, who wasn't all that good, to finish and explain some of the crap morrison pulled, like the sentinel who went nowhere.

None of his crap was needed or even warranted. Just a bit before, there were Dream's End and Colossus' death, which were pretty good.

How would have Claremont handled goog guy gambit? I know he wanted to make him a traitor, but I thiink fans/editorial wanted him to not be the traitor.

>>87749745
Check XTreme X-Men v1 for the answer.

>>87749672
I'd call Morrison's run more of a mixed bag than outright good or bad

The good:
>Frank Quitely art
>The school
>Xavier coming out as a mutant
>Xorn

The bad:
>inconsistent art
>Xorn being Magneto in disguise
>the future arc

X-Force/X-Statix was the better book but both at least pushed the franchise away from their 90s status quo

>>87748803
>Doom being beaten and then developing a thing for Storm? That's kinda neat actually.

As the other anon said, a running thread in X-men under Claremont was that various people developed a crush on Storm because she was regal and majestic and strong-willed. Thor is probably the most famous one, you still see people on /co/ who ship Thor/storm because of it. Doom, Dracula, Arkon and others also crushed on her.

>>87749960
After mentioning Xtreme X-Men, I just recalled some bad guy also has a crush on her during that run.

>>87749895
>pushed the franchise away from their 90s status quo
I see you consider that a good thing. I just don't see why "change for the sake of change" makes some people so happy.

>the school
I'll admit it works alright... in X-Men '92.
I personally don't see what's so good about any of the other points, at all.

>>87749745
Claremont had Gambit and Sinister connected from the jump, differently than what happened in canon. He also had a different origin for Sinister.

Some of this showed up when did "X-Men The End", where Gambit was created by Sinister using some of his own DNA with Cyclops or some shit.

But Claremont wrote good guy Gambit well in the late 90s/early 2000s

>>87749895
Honestly the school fucked up the X-Men in my opinion.

>>87750087
The great thing about Claremont's original run is the way things kept changing, moving forward.

>>87746559
Krypton was much more fleshed out a long time before Byrne, including its culture, cities and superstitions. If anything Byrne destroyed most of it to turn it into a dry society. Superman also had closer ties to Kryptonian culture before the reboot. Byrne turned him into a complete American, because keeping any ties with your birthparents is being a leech according to Byrne.(which came from his mouth)

>>87750581
Mostly, they progressed, not just "changed" just because.

>>87746312
>That reminds me of what happened on nu52.
Hmm, I wonder what they could have in common...

>>87748818
I used to prefer Byrne when I was a rookie pleb.
Nowadays I love Cockrum. You should certainly read Futurians. It's very creative, maybe too creative, and the characters consisted of some unused X-Men, but it shows Cockrum at his most passionate and detailed

>>87749672
let's not forget about President Magneto.
Magneto being the president of the mutant state is more interesting than Magneto the Mutant Bin Laden on drugs

>>87750088
Ironically, Gambit was later revealed to be a former member of marauders (not under Claremont of course), so in the end, he was a traitor, albeit of different way, and he did redeem himself

I wish Claremont was my dad

>>87749960
Thr honestly is the ebst one, jsut because it works thematically, she's supposedly a godess of nature, with thunder being her thing, guess who also does that.

>>87750699
It's difficult to defend Byrne, and I'm not really good at it.

It's just that people like him were responsible for bringing the new readers into comics.
Beside FF, I certainly loved his Alpha Flight, She-Hulk (despite the retcon), Namor, Next Men.

He also collaborated with Mignola and helped him fleshed out Hellboy. Of course, the two later got soured and nowadays Mignola denies that Byrne did anything of value, but Seed of Destruction will probably remain my favorite volume

>>87751317
Well, if you're into BDSM, he can be your daddy in no time :)

>>87749672
>some of the crap morrison pulled, like the sentinel who went nowhere.
I thought the statue of Magneto that Quicksilver, Polaris and Toad finished was supposed to be the remains of the Sentinel, it had two heads that *weren't* turned into Mags.

>>87751470
Seed is the weakest of the lot, imo.

>>87746287
Agreed

>>87746312
Lobdell, for whatever faults he has as a big ideas writer, is fairly effective at doing character driven stuff. Look at all of his good X-Men issues: stories like Illyana's death, Colossus' death or Jubilee and Xavier spending time together. They're all character-driven, not action-driven, stories. Generation X, while having them fight villains, wasn't a purely action-driven book and focused much more on the character personalities and such. It says a lot that the worst story of his run is the one where Synch becomes an Emplate which is mostly standard superheroics whereas one of the best ones is the Christmas story early on with Nanny, Orphan Maker and the grotesque mutant kid.

>>87744817

> Claremont belongs to the generation of comics creators who found out that they could not dictate the course of story in a superhero universe they didn't own. Claremont's X-saga was one of consecutive and constant change, where characters and situations changed permanently to give new status quos and personalities. But as Claremont began to discover, Marvel editorial had different ideas about what should happen in the titles and was not above overriding him and backsliding his changes.

Yeah he basically controlled all the mutant books until like 88.

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>>87750088
>Claremont had Gambit and Sinister connected from the jump

>>87745770
>he won’t go to DC Comics
I think he has a pretty low opinion of DC editorial. In an interview he talked about how at a party a DC editor tried to get him to jump ship at the peak of his X-Men run by offering him Teen Titans. He didn't take the job and he warned Marv Woflman that they tired to give away his

I can totally see that level of fickleness coloring his view on the company

>>87746428

Secret Wars 2 is total garbage but those New Mutants tie ins/aftermath issues are some of my favorite Marvel books ever

>>87745755
>90's was the worst decade for X-Men
The current one begs to differ, also the 2000's

>>87745770

it's crazy they can't give him something. just ask what he wants and figure it out. at least he's getting paid

>>87752559
>just ask what he wants
Honestly he'd probably take another time travel/multiverse adventure title so he could have a team of pet characters and be free from playing with the rest of Marvel

>>87752595
Which would be awesome. Excalibur and Exiles are great concepts, and I'd love to see him get on that train again, with or without mutants involved.

I'm just astounded at the idea of him getting paid by Marvel, but them not using him in any capacity. I always thought it was weird that he never ended up doing much outside of that run on Sovereign Seven in the 90s, and periodic X-Men comebacks. Now it makes more sense, they're hush-moneying the shit out of him.

>>87745722
He wiped out a good story starring a character who was never great who had done a whole lot of nothing for the last 10 years or so too, all so he could bone his waifu and then... do nothing for the next 10 years Juggernaut shit aside.

>>87745770
>Because Chris Claremont is an interesting case. Famed for his run on X-Men, from the seventies to the nineties, that pretty much set in place everything we expect from a modern X-Men comic book – and films – he has had a long running exclusive contract with Marvel. This forbids him from working for any rival US comic book publisher.
Is this recent because he's done DC stuff in the past (notably that shitty vampire story on JLA with Byrne) and that shitty Gen13 run that got retconned away in the next volume.

>>87752939
>Which would be awesome. Excalibur and Exiles are great concepts, and I'd love to see him get on that train again, with or without mutants involved.
Claremont's Exiles was so bad that it permanently or at least semi-permanently tainted the Exiles name and killed Parker's run before it ever started. I also half-suspect it's why 616 was brought back or at least played a part in that being approved (Blink is popular, AoA Blink is too associated with a toxic brand, let's bring back 616 Blink).

>>87751559
The thing is, you start an X-Men run with a fuckhuge Sentinel killing off millions, one expects a fuckhuge fight scene to take him down, which did not happen. The Sentinel itself barely gets mentioned until it wakes up in Whedon's run.

>>87752381
>Jubilee and Xavier spending time together
Oh man I kinda love that story.

>>87746150
Even Onslaught has its moments

>>87752381
It's weird that Lobdell seems to know that Gen X is his best work yet he still keeps doing the big, crazy action stories which are consistently his biggest weakness.

I mean, compare that Riddler issue of Sirens to his Titans. Why does a guy insist on doing something he's so bad at when there's something else he can do so well?

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Way too much Claremont wank going on in here.

We need to bring in some hate for his precious Kittyfu to even the scales.

>>87755176
Thank god they dropped that uniform fast. Don't know what the fuck they were thinking.

>>87755285

It wasn't real. It was a joke costume that doesn't make an appearance outside of that issue.

>>87754433
>Jubilee and Xavier spending time together
>Oh man I kinda love that story.

Is that the one where Charles has use of his legs for a day after the big event crossover?

If so, yeah, that was a good one.

>>87755727
That's the one I was talking about, yes.

>>87746655
Claremont no question. I like the idea of mutants as an emerging culture and increasing part of every day life, it's a great status quo. But it's very clearly that at best Morrison doesn't think particularly highly of the X-Men and at worst actively hates them.

>>87745770
>But he’s not getting any work from Marvel either. Still they pay him a retainer, enough that he won’t go to DC Comics, or anyone else.

Paying Chris Claremont not to write is the best use of his talents nowadays.

The man became fucking unreadable by the end of the 90s.

>>87746895
It wasn't. Morrison absolutely despised the idea of Magneto as a good guy or sympathetic character because, in Morrison's own words, he's "a mad, old terrorist twat". Noticing that he's riffing on old Claremont stories and concepts is intentional since I believe he's said before his X-Men run is more fo a commentary on the cyclical nature of X-Men stories or something, hence him hitting all of the usual beats in broad strokes.

But the Xorn stuff is his commentary on Magneto. It's blatantly obvious that Xorn is supposed to represent the good guy/anti-heroic Magneto of Claremont which is, of course, revealed to all be a ruse so we get the real Magneto: a crazy, cartoonish supervillain like an edgy Skeletor.

So.

I am not up to speed on current X-men. Stopped reading them around the end of Whedon run (yeah it's a lot of years now).

Are they good now? Or are they all Inhuman now since they push that property now, or whatever?

>>87756144
Wait until next year, they're releasing a bunch of new X titles and seem to be trying to bring the series back from the dead.

>>87756144
They suck right now, we don't know if they'll be turned into Inhumans or what at the end of Inhumans vs X-Men.

If you want some real good reading from the meantime, start with Messiah CompleX and take it from there, I guess. End it with Second Coming or Necrosha, not sure which came later.

>>87751222
>the characters consisted of some unused X-Men,

Some of whom were even then just unused Legion of Superheroes characters that he hadn't yet found a way to used in X-Men yet.

>>87751258
Magneto as the Head of Genosha, the Mutant State lasting all of like two arcs before getting Morrisoned was such a goddamn waste of potential.

I mean, since then they've pulled the Mutant Island idea at LEAST twice, with Cable's Providence and later on with Utopia. But the same idea with Magneto in charge got sacrificed for a fucking evil twin arc.

>>87754721
Likely it's what editorial wants and Lobdell's nothing if not a good soldier. Reading up on some of the stuff later in Lobdell's run is kind of interesting. The team of X-Men at the end of Operation: Zero Tolerance (Iceman, Marrow, Cecilia Reyes, Sabra and I think a few others?) was the team that Lobdell wanted to use going forward with the idea that the X-Men had no Shi'ar tech, no mansion, no nothing. Editorial nixed Sabra. He also was originally going to have O:ZT end with Magneto ripping apart the helicarrier and declaring war on humanity over Bastion's actions, then he left but did a sort of edited/condensed version of that story with Eve of Destruction.

>>87756144
Bunn's Uncanny is alright, easily the best X-Men book right now, but it's basically a Magneto-led X-Force book under a different name. Everything else is really bad.

>>87744679
Claremont is probably one of my biggest inspirations for writing and how I write. It's because he managed to combine episodic adventures into an overall story arc, without writing for trade or some crap like that. I honestly think that the times that Marvel titles as a whole work best is when they have a story arc behind them. And I don't mean writing for the trades type story arcs. I mean when there is a clear path that the comics are taking, so even when events like Civil War II take place, the writer can work their way around them and sometimes even use them for their advantage.

Plus the insertiton of his fetishes was absolutely brilliant. It felt natural, but when you thought about it, the idea and what was actually occuring was pretty fucking hot.

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When should I stop reading X-Men?

Is X-Factor decent? I'm getting close to the 90's and the X-Men / New Mutants / X-Factor / X-Terminators / Excalibur / Power Pack / etc. insanity is making a drop look appealing

>>87757302
I hate when they have so many different teams all crossing over storylines, makes shit confusing as hell.

>>87757302
Oh, X-Factor isn't a bad series at all. In fact, it's probably got some of the best stories in X-Men lore. It's just that it does not follow Claremont's orignal vision. See originally, Claremont accepted that Cyclops was going to be brought back as a hero, though perhaps not an X-Man. After all, at the time Cyclops was one of the most popular characters in the X-Franchise and a lot of people wanted to write him. However, orignally the plan was that Dazzler would replace Jean Grey in the orignal five's line up. It was just Kurt Busiek's intervention that prevented that.

Still, I think people give Scott too much shit for his actions. Were they wrong? Depends. Remember, he only wanted to see Jean, to know that she was real. Maddie was the one who ran off Nate and I am almost sure that she hit him before that. Scott also did not immediately start fucking Jean either. The whole mess was convulated and almost ruined Scott in the eyes of fans though

>>87757302
Depends on the book really. X-Factor goes to shit once PAD leaves unless you really, really want to read about Wild Child pining after Shard and other shit like that. Though I do like the Forge/Mystique pairing; actually I always like Mystique paired with anyone who's a good guy since it can bring out more complexities in her character without necessarily comprimising it. The idea that she truly can love someone like Forge or Iceman but her nature is such that such flings are always doomed.

It's why I ship her with Val Cooper

I personally like the '90s X-Force quite a bit. The only truly bad stuff I find is Liefeld's and the Ellis/Edginton which turns them into a black ops team (holy fuck did I hate that trend from the 2000s). John Francis Moore's run on that book is one of the more underrated X-Men runs IMO.

Really just read until you stop liking whatever you're reading.

>>87757528
>Oh, X-Factor isn't a bad series at all. In fact, it's probably got some of the best stories in X-Men lore.
What are you even talking about, in particular?
Angel's depression and transition to Archangel aside, none of those issues except the PAD/Claremont penned ones are good. Basically everything by Simonson/Mackie (nearly 75% of the entire run) was trash, and DeMatteis was putting out some of his worst work at the time too. It was just a mess.

>>87757302
I own every X-Men book from DoFP to AvX. Your question is a tricky one, because there's not one event or year that's worth stopping at, as many titles are still good while others dropped in quality early on.

You can drop X-Men by the time Claremont leaves (UXM 280/XM 3), but it's worth reading the Image artists era for the art (seriously, Portacio was a beast). Drop New Mutants at #54, and X-Factor at #92. Wolverine can be read until #122, and Excalibur is an essential read that should be dropped after #67, Generation X should be read until #32 but you're probably going to want to read all of the AoA because of that Bachalo mini. And by that point you might as well start reading several titles again, because they pick up in quality (X-Force in particular, though UXM also makes a comeback with more Alan Davis, Seagle and Kelly). And that's not mentioning how Ladronn's Cable run is one of the best attempts at mimicking Kirby since Kirby originally left Marvel.

See how difficult that is? It's easier to just keep on reading it all for the hell of it, because the X-Universe was one of the most interesting things to witness, for all its ups ad downs.

My best advice is just quit after Age of Apocalypse.
Ignore everything written by Louise Simonson unless you are a masochist.

>>87757302
>Power Pack

I hate those stupid kids so much. They kept trying to force them by making them crossover with X-Men but nobody cared enough to actually read them so they tried to make the comics more edgy which just pissed off the few fans it had and caused it to get cancelled.

>>87758513
If it weren't for Uncanny X-Men #205, Power Pack would be one of my biggest regrets about the 80s.

I do appreciate the effort to try and keep comics innocent while they were going in a darker direction in general, but man, they shouldn't have crossed over as much as they did.

The title reads better on its own than it does as a handful of titles mixed in with your X-Men, that's for sure.

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>>87758584
>Uncanny X-Men #205

That issue was incredible. Some of the best art in an X-Men comic.

>>87758930
BWS's art is always worth reading in floppies, it's worth the extra few bucks to find his work. He really understood the coloring process and how it would look on the paper of the time, and it doesn't translate well to digital scans.

Reading his Lifedeath work is what made me convinced I had to just start owning it all. Was definitely a gateway drug into becoming a buyfag.

>>87758484
Judgement Day is a pretty good story arc. I mean, yes, the majority of X-Factor isn't brilliant, but it is better than most of the trash being published.

>>87759070
Anything that Cameron Hodge appeared in during that time pissed me off so much that I just couldn't bring myself to like the book.

Fallen Angels was also such a shitty mini, and its effect on New Mutants and X-Factor was really horrible. Complete turn off, honestly.

>but it is better than most of the trash being published.
Englehart on Silver Surfer/FF/West Coast Avengers, Michelinie on Spider-Man, Gruenwald's Cap, JrJr illustrating Daredevil, the Armor Wars arc of Iron Man, PAD beginning his legendary Hulk run with McFarlane changing the game on Marvel house style, DeFalco's underrated Thor run and PAD continuing to throw away above average Spidey stories in his free time.

It wasn't a bad time by any means. I would rank X-Factor as below any of those in quality.

>>87757302
I'm at the same point in the comics. I hated X-Factor at first because it seemed gimmicky bringing the original team back with Jean Grey, but it gets better once they get a more diverse group instead of just the classic 5. And they have cool villains like Apocalypse.

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>>87756111

Sublime = editorial.

I fucking love good guy Magneto so I also love Xorn.

>>87755285
>>87755392
For a few issues Kitty kept coming up with different hideous costumes, because she didn't like being the only one in a training suit.

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Dude who hates Weezy is crazy. she and walt make x-factor readable.

>>87761642
I think Morrison was blowing smoke up the fan's bums with all that Xorneto fluff.
He spent quite a bit of time showing Xorn as his own character and established a whole mythology to his powerset then one day Marvel tells him he's getting kicked off the book and the next thing you know Magneto's Xorn and the whole story spins out of control into crazy places with characterization and past canon getting tossed to the winds.
I'd hate to say a pro writer was throwing a tantrum, but pulling a mean-spirited prank seems more likely here.
Whatever the case, you can't take Xorneto at face value... Kek...

>>87761703
They still put her in ugly costumes, these days as an in-joke.
She had a scene in a recent Guardian's of the Galaxy where she was wearing an unbelievable eyesore. And then asked her boyfriend how he thought she looked in her new outfit. Talk about self-sabotage.

>>87762097
It's blowing smoke up peoples' asses in that it doesn't make sense, yes, but that's not editorial. Morrison just hates the X-Men, X-Men fans and Magneto especially and his run is one giant attempt to show how banal he thinks the entire thing is.

Again, I like the status quo he introduced but I don't like the actual stories he wrote.

>>87762097
>Whatever the case, you can't take Xorneto at face value...
I chuckled

http://www.xavierfiles.com/x-men-reading-guide/

I have to ask, is this a good guide to start reading? In other site I read someone saying that Uncanny X-Men Masterwork is a good start.

>>87749148
>I didn't like it at first
the best way to spot a fag is if he threwed a bitch fit like kitty at this

>>87762097
Morrison basically stated that he quit reading after the Phoenix saga because he was upset that his fan letter wasn't published in the lettercol.

He had no real idea of the character development that happened in that twenty year period.

>>87762317
Just start at Giant Size #1, and then Uncanny X-Men 94 and up. It's forty years old but holds up well to this day. You don't have to worry about crossovers for the next 100 something issues either.

That link is helpful, I guess, but it just depends on where you want to start reading X-Men. Do you want to read the classics? Do you want to be introduced to the characters? Do you want a story you can finish in an afternoon, or something you can read for years? Or do you want to catch up quickly so you can keep up with the monthly releases now?

>>87762547
I just want a good starting point with some decent arcs and I dont care how long it takes me. I read some of first one for the '60, I remember the vanisher or something like that and one issue when professor test them saying he is gonna die and in the end: Sorry guys, I lied. The problem is that I dont think I will resist 90+ issues before the 'good' part starts.

And no, I dont want something short to read in a day and I dont care about anything modern to catch-up with something. Just a good read for a good time.

>>87756035

Morrison ONLY dislikes Hulk,

But i agree, he doesnt seem to care about them in the say way he does about Batman, Superman or the Fantastic Four. But i insist, the only big character he truly dislikes is HULK.

>>87762547
Now you can't possibly believe that the Morrison run was done without any research post Phoenix Saga.
For god's sake, just Fantomex and his whole idiotic extension of the Weapon X mythology disproves that: Weapon X was post Phoenix Saga.
And Scott's entire characterization in his run revolved around the whole Apocalypse possession.
Then there's Beast's issues with continual mutation that happened in one of the least readable books, and Emma's gradual reformation that's been happening over decades...
(and she was killed off outright in Phoenix Saga)

>>87762766
Then yeah, read everything by Claremont.

If you're REALLY interested, go back and read the Neal Adams issues from the 60s. X-Men #55-63 are the best of the silver age stories (I'd go as far as to say the only ones worth reading), BUT there's no real reason to. Claremont let this period influence his stories, since Neal Adams art was part of the reason mainstream superhero comics "grew up" at the time, but eh. You're still safe enough starting at the relaunch in 1975, with Giant Size X-Men #1. You can read a whole seven years worth of stories before the first crossover (New Mutants graphic novel)

>>87762547
People say to start at Giant Size #1 but eh, I find it and that first Count Nefaria and N'Garai stories to be pretty lame and a poor introduction overall. Just start at Uncanny #97 instead.

Also, Thomas' second run before it got cancelled is really underrated.

>>87763056
Morrison changed Emma's character big time from what she had been in Generation X though. From a haughty, ruthless Mama Bear to a slutty seductress.

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>>87763028
Not hard to see why, Banner might have been fun for him to write with the whole genius on the run from himself thing (however rehashed that might be), even all those crazy superscientist hulk villains would be fun for him, but the title character is the epitome of oversimplification.
Image him in desperation, hunched over his keyboard, trying to write his subtext of existentialist arguments around...
"HULK SMASH!"

>>87763194
> Slutty seductress.
Come now, who amongst us are the same person outside of the bedroom (or in this case Scotty's brain) as we are in the workplace?

>>87763194

I love Morrison Emma but still cannot convince myself to read generation x

>>87763152
thanks

>>87763206

You just gave me an idea for a Hulk Thread.

>>87745678
>Morrison X-Men
as much as Morrison is one of my favorite writers, his X-Men run was hot garbage

>>87746262
I tend to follow this site's reading order(I started a chronological reading of the Marvel Universe starting from Fantastic Four #1 a couple months ago and I need to get back to it);

http://cmro.travis-starnes.com/

>>87763056
I don't believe he read entire arcs, his knowledge seemed to be as brief as a Wikipedia article's worth of information. His entire run was basically a retelling of the Byrne years, so this isn't such an extreme opinion I'm stating. You could skip from the first UXM omnibus to the NXM omnibus, with no knowledge of the stories in-between, and you wouldn't be missing out on *that* much understanding.

But let's look at your points: Weapon X was released as a tpb only a year after it was published. The Apocalypse possession effected the characterization, but no more so than a simple "he's not the boyscout he used to be!". The Search for Cyclops came out RIGHT before Morrison's run - the editors were incompetent, but not so much that they wouldn't at least pass that info along to Moz. Same goes with Emma's status post-Gen X's cancellation - but let's no pretend her characterization was the same.

I'm not sure what title you're referring to with Beast's "continual mutation in one of the least readable books".

>>87763194
I wasn't a fan of early Thomas, since he was still too much of a high school lit teacher, trying to force parables down the reader's throats. I've learned to like it though. Arnold Drake X-Men was good, but I can't recommend it for beginners.

I'd agree with #97 being the first strong issue (it was the first showcase of Claremont's long-form storytelling, with plotpoints that didn't pay off months), but Thunderbird's death is worth it.

>>87763304
She was pretty fucked up in Gen X, although not many people (rightfully) read it, as it was pretty much dragged through the mud by Larry Hama.

>>87763368
The first 32 issues are good. It did what early New Mutants tried to do, but better.

>>87763389
Go for it anon, and more power to you.
We always need more threads of goodwill on /co/.

>>87763416
This is a good reading order for X-Men.
It was designed by someone who is custom binding the X-Men floppies into personalized hardcovers, so there are a few things missing later on, but overall it nails everything.

https://www.docdroid.net/E75ZVld/x-men.pdf.html

>>87748768
>especially when she eventually loses her powers
eh no point to an X-Men character if they have no powers in my opinion

>>87763474
> Beast's "least readable book"

Talk'n 'bout "EXTREME X-Men". Those fucking '90s...
Sage (honestly... fucking Sage?) is the one who secondary mutated him. That is canon.

>>87763549
You must have really hated post-HoM then, huh?

>>87763584
You do realize that Morrison's run started before X-Treme X-Men, right?

That's simply a matter of editors doing their job and making sure their writers know what each other is doing.

>>87763206
honestly I kinda agree, Professor Hulk was the best era for the character

>>87763588
yeah I do, honestly there's not much in the main Earth 616/Universe 8 continuity published after 1999 that I like

>>87746265
Speaking of desensitizing , a lot of people forget that he was originally going to have the x men join up with the hell fire club to help protect mutants. Like a whole "the enemy of my enemy is my friend " deal

>>87763717
Someone at Marvel must have liked that idea, because they're doing that these days for the IvX thing.

>>87744740

Which era of Claremont are we talking about? Early replacement of Len Wein Uncanny X-men, Xavier's in Space so Magneto's in charge X-men, Outback X-men, Muir Saga X-men, the NEO come back X-men, no honest this time my comeback will be a lot better circa 2004 X-men, X-men Forever...?

>>87763304
But she was slutty seductress all the time. Gen X Emma is good, especially at the end. She murders her sister after Synch is killed, then in the last issue it's implied she killed a cop who came investigating to stop him from discovering what happened. She cared about her students but would go to any length to protect them and given her past was not above getting her hands dirty to do so.

It's also the reason Banshee's one of my favorite X-Men. Going back and reading Claremont's run up through Proteus when he leaves really solidified it too. Banshee's fucking awesome and one of the most underappreciated X-Men.

>>87744817
>Over Claremont's stories he slowly evolved into a calm, collected, deadly warrior and a reliable teammate.

That was primarily John Byrne's influence though, Chris had little interest in him and it was only because Byrne, being a Canadian, pushed to be given space to make Wolverine a cooler character. Claremont just kept at it and build it more after Byrne left as Wolverine was starting to become a lot more popular in the book.

>>87744845
>leaving the X-Men franchise run fully by editorial and their stooge writers like Scott Lobdell.
>implying Lobdell and Nicieza's 90s X-men weren't great and thought fondly to this day.

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>>87763152
This is good advice.
If you are looking to get hard copies; the first three omnis, which take you up to like 180 with the annuals are currently in print.
pic related is some shitty fan art I made.

>>87764267
3rd Omni is very close to OOP if it isn't already. Already removed from IST, might have a few copies on Amazon but then you have to deal with their shit shipping.

>>87764214
Lobdell is only well regarded because he could handle the downtime following an arc/event. If it weren't for his handling of Illyana's death, I don't think he'd be looked back on so fondly. He was trying to recreate Claremont's magic, but without the experience or skill.

Nicieza was maleable and shaped his stories according to the reader's desires. There was no grand plan, he just wrote month to month. His main talent was being able to adapt to Liefeld's ability to ignore anything his scripter told him to draw.

Of the two, Nicieza was definitely better, but come on. Calling them great is definitely a stretch. They inherited some of the best selling comics in the industry, they just had to keep the wheels from falling off the car and the ride could keep on going until Harras could fuck it up enough that it required another rehaul.

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>>87764267
I actually own complete runs. I tried the omnis at first, but I can't stand the digital recoloring for anything released before 1992.

If you buy them in bulk off eBay, it's actually cheaper than Amazon prices for the collected editions.

UXM 94-207 was reprinted in Classic X-Men 1-110, which can also be picked up for ~$50-70. Pretty useful since everything pre-Days of Future Past is a bit expensive (plus I like to tear up my comics and turn them into custom bound hardcovers)

>>87764034
I agree with your whole post - it's solid gold.
But Emma's sexuality isn't always focal, while she is indeed always hyper-sexual by her own design there are other major aspects of her character that come to the surface from time to time, remember that her masterminding of evil schemes was always done with the utmost seriousness back in her villainess days, and as a teacher she wanted to be, above all, inspiring.
Even her trademark wry wit, while often flirtatious, is primarily manipulative in the most abrupt sense. If you've ever received a cruel jab by someone who knows you too well you can understand that's not at all for the purposes of seduction.

( Also, fuck everyone who was involved in Dark Genesis. Banshee deserved better, and the Uncanny Avengers resurrection didn't heal that wound. )

>>87764306

You're selling Lobdell way too short. He not only created the Generation X series, he was also a chief architect and/or writer of the many still much liked crossovers of the mid-90s, such as Phalanx Covenant, Zero Tolerance, X-Cutioner's Song, Age of Apocalypse, Fatal Attractions, atop of all the beloved downtime issues.

>>87745678

Whedon's run was nothing but nostalgia goggles rehashing of Claremont. In the end the stories weren't even that good.

>>87754532

Onslaught is enjoyable, the only problem with it really was editorial going full retarded with pushing it on all titles before even figuring out with Lobdell what Onslaught was meant to be.

>>87764870
Back in the '90s every event was destroyed by editorial coming in last minute and demanding a total rewrite.
That's not hyperbole. You remember The Clone Saga?

>>87746614
>It's not iconic

Byrne's Krypton is highly iconic even today.

>>87764577
Phalanx Covenant wasn't great (plus it was literally like, a month of issue's), it just served as an intro to Gen X. Which was largely successful due to Bachalo's art.

Fatal Attractions was guaranteed success because it was bringing Magneto back for the first time since Claremont, had Wolvie's claws stripped and was a 30th anniversary. Lobdell's contributions weren't so great, he was just involved.

I personally liked X-Cutioner's Song because I'm a huge Cable fanboy and like 90s schlock, but let's not pretend Stryfe was a well-executed idea, or even a good one. His story was as much an asspull as Morrison's Xorn actually being Magneto actually being another Xorn.

Zero Tolerance was considered one of the weakest crossovers of the franchise.

AoA was a team effort and the only one that can be said to have actually been successful on a critically acclaimed level.

I love this period. I own this period. But it's definitely not above criticism.

>>87764949
>You remember The Clone Saga?

Why has Spidercide not made a come back yet?

>>87746614
I think that your opinion and taste are shit, but is nice to read a post from someone that actually read the comics and has arguments to defend it. Thank you anon, goodnight.

>>87765100
Water finds it's own level, my friend.

>>87764306
Is the Kelly and Seagle stuff worth reading at all? I get the impression it's nothing but wasted potential due to the chaos of overly hands on editorial combined with the shit situation Marvel was in at the time.

>>87746805
>However, I am butthurt over Morrison's final fuck you trolling the X-Men fans with his Magneto's portrayal.

Except it makes perfect sense in-story if you actually understood the story and even had a glaring way out written into it that nobody inexplicably didn't use. If you disliked it, it was all Sublime mind controlling him. If you liked it, the thematic points still ring true, Magneto becomes the monster he was always fighting, and Sublime was only nudging and subtly influencing him a little until near the very end.

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>>87765164
NO...
If you dislike it, you headcanon that Xorn was never Magneto... EVER... and that Sublime is irrelevant and so best forgotten.

>>87765157

Well there are some okay issues there but by large it amounts to nothing. But it does introduce Maggot, so...

>>87764396
I got my UXM omnis from IST for cheap on the day of release for each one. I will say the recolor quality varies amongst the marvel omnis. The UXM, FF, and ASM books seem to get a more nuanced treatment than the others.

>>87765164
New X-Men really only works in a vacuum. You should read it by itself, without considering any of the other titles being published, or having been published before.

>>87765157
Together it's a good, solid 30 issues of material that was largely the vision of two people, rather than editorial, except for the last arc.

I personally love Joe Kelly, and think he's tremendously under-rated for the above average stories he can deliver.

The characters found a unique voice/personality that had been lacking under Nicieza/Lobdell (who either relied on Claremont's annoyingly stereotyped verbal tics, or wrote everyone sounding the same). There are a few problems, but it mostly comes down to not having enough time on the title. What they did with the time they had though was good. I wouldn't say legendary, but solid. They told stories without having to worry about trying to raise the stakes constantly until nothing felt like it mattered (such as the event fatigue from the past 50 issues in both titles)

And of course Bachalo art from that era is always a plus.

>>87750103

No, it was the insistence that they had to go back and redo Claremont type generic superhero stuff, mixed with House of M shit.

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>>87763717

Magneto White King and Headmaster, tortured hero because everyone expects him to be evil, is best status quo.

>>87764034

He's another person with a great arc after losing their powers. Not losing but you get the point

God Loves, Man Kills is Claremont's best work

period

>>87762097
>>87762273

Xorn being Magneto makes perfect sense, it's hinted throughout the run but it only makes sense AFTER the reveal, when you see the hints in a new light. Morrison was going for the readers feeling betrayed just like the X-men were when they realize Xorn's true identity. He was too beautiful of a lie to be true.

>>87765647
It makes sense within the story, but the story makes no sense within the greater continuity.

And 95% of the fun of following the X-Men has been character development, that's what makes them stand out from most of the other action-oriented team books.

Sacrificing one of the most well-regarded developments and taking away the complexity of a character for shock value is shitty writing. This isn't opinion. This is fact. Just because it's Morrison doesn't make it any less bad.

>>87765689
>but the story makes no sense within the greater continuity.

Magneto has an established history of mental swings due to his powers and Moira McTaggert, which was used to explain how he's a good guy one day and a raving hate crime committer the next. And that's not even taking Sublime's influence due to Kick usage into account.

>>87765715
See, if the story explicitly stated "Magneto went rogue due to being SUBLIMED" I would be more okay with it. It would still be completely unnecessary, pointless in the long-run and only serving to further stroke Grant's ego, but I'd be okay with it, just another meh X-tale.

But he doesn't do that. He allows for the possibility, but doesn't do that. Capeshit doesn't follow death of the author; in a shared universe that's a one-way trip to schizophrenia. What's on the page is all that matters. And he chose not to put it there. He chose to write the story as Magneto legitimately going mad, and he's confirmed that interpretation since (literally see above in this thread).

You can No-Prize it to being Sublime, and that's good, but having to write a different ending for a story to work means, again, it's a shitty story.

The next arc literally has Beast suffer the same Sublime induced madness.

>>87758584
>>87758513
Power Pack crossing over with the x-men in the morlock massacre was just jarring

Did Mahvel actually try ship Rachel with Sublime?

>>87746915
Magneto's always been better as a bastard-and frankly no one's been able to put together a more iconic villain for the x-men.

Clairmont did a lot of great work but people forget just how much work his editor did during the best years of his x-run. Whenever he's come back to the x-books without her the magic hasn't been back. The whole "misunderstood genius denied his ending" narrative just isn't true, even if Chris let himself believe it.

That said Marvel editorial was right that making mutants JUST a minority instead of letting them be other things as well as a minority was limiting. Look at the past decade plus of x-books-fuck remember when the x-men did shit besides die and feel sad about dying?

>>87765715
You're forgetting how bat-shit crazy he was back in those double-digit Uncanny issues.
. He drove a magnet-shaped flying car. .
His magnetic fields affecting his brain wasn't an excuse for why he was sometimes menacing and other times reasonable, NO, it was an excuse for really bad two-dimensional cartoon villainy style writing.
Him being driven mad by his own powers (a reoccurring theme that has now given us a Legion TV show) excused his odd behavior, not his politics.
And without this convenient Morrison run "raving hate crime" there's no violent action he's taken that wasn't as rationally motivated as Frank Castle's acts of preemptive public defense.

>>87765871
Not true, the next arc had Beast possessed by the Sublime lifeform wholecloth like some kind of exorcism-proof bacterial demon.

>>87765904
Yes, ONE very wrong writer did try that shit, but that entire run is best left forgotten canon.

>>87763938
Are they really? I really have been out of the loop with marvel and xmen stiff I've been a /lit/ fag lately
>>87765372
I was so disappointed nothing came out of white king magneto. The whole "I need to be somewhat evil again to protect mutants even though I just had a ton of character development that changed me from that kind of person" mindset for magneto was really compelling.

I also miss the more "wise older man and mentor " side of magneto. The last of magneto I read was some of his solo and I feel they spend too much time with him as a powerful former terrorist who you can have sympathy for.

>>87765982
>Magneto's always been better as a bastard

There are a million and one forgettable villains who are just like that. Magneto, and really, almost everything related to the X-Men, is iconic because of what Claremont did with him.

>>87766226
Honestly, he hasn't been that compelling a character since Utopia.

That was certainly his peak. There was potential with AvX, but that just squandered everything anyways.

>>87763549
Storm become more badass after losing her powers though, she beat Cyclops in a duel over the rights to be the X-Men's leader. She just fought with her fists instead of blowing people away with wind gusts.

I was underwhelmed with Days of Future Past, should have been longer and more details about the future instead of just being a 2 issue Kitty goes back in time story.

>>87768581

That's a really silly criticism to make 35 years later

>>87762189
However, her current costume isn't bad at all. Nice upgrade from the old blue costume and at last gets her ninja theme right.

>>87768581
Don't worry. They made up for it's brevity by revisiting it constantly for decades afterwards.

>>87752559
>just ask what he wants and figure it out
I think Marvel got tired of this after a few things because Claremont wasn't being a team player, I remember that time they trusted him with a few prologue issues to Storm/Black Phanter wedding and he outright sinked the marriage completely. There's also those times when he tried to out Kitty as a lesbian and Marvel had to intervene to the point of banning him from using her ever again except in flashbacks.

But most importantly, I don't think Claremont's ideas would fit well in the current year. I mean, there are a group of people who romantize his commitment to diversity so much, they don't realize most of Claremont's efforts came out of a desire to live his fetishes. Nowadays, people would accept his commitment to lesbian stuff but make an outcry at everything else and that would bury his public image really bad. Marvel is making sure that doesn't happen which is why they just give him very harmless projects like Nightcrawler.

>>87768767
>There's also those times when he tried to out Kitty as a lesbian and Marvel had to intervene to the point of banning him from using her ever again except in flashbacks.
Kitty/Shan was nixed in New Mutants v2 because the writers knew they would be torn to shreds by the Kitty fanboys if they did it. I remember that there was a fansite/forum dedicated to that book that I posted on at the time not long after that issue came out and they basically said as much though I don't believe said site is around anymore.

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>>87768767
He should have made a Calisto romance with Storm, there was so much sexual tension between their rivalry I for sure thought they would wind up fucking.

>>87756909
it's worth noting that Sabra seems to be some kind of Lobdell's waifu, as he did wrote some parody of his X-Men team before he got assigned in some "What the" parody series. Also, there were ideas of adding Sabra way back in the ANAD era but for some reason they were nixed

>>87756035
He didn't. In some old interviews (late 80s) in comic book mags he did say something to the extent that Claremont should have ended his run after Dark Phoenix saga. He's really a cunt

>>87757302
Well, X-Terminators is just an Inferno tie-in mini. It's a fun read though. It mostly ties into New Mutants so if you're into Simonson/Blevins era NM it's worth reading but skippable otherwise. The art is great.

>>87756111
I like to think that Morrison could have been a good writer if he spent more time on storytelling instead of being meta

>>87757238
One thing you should certainly remember is that Claremont is a very literate guy, which means that you should read a lot of novels in various genres. People who are really well versed in both comics and books kinda laugh that you can guess what Claremont was reading based on the ideas he utilized in his run

>>87758484
In defense of Simonson on X-Factor, she was dealt a shitty hand with the bad premise and baggage that came with it. I like the Fall of the Mutants era stuff and Judgment Day is fun. Her work on New Mutants and Power Pack is much much better.

>>87769212

All-Star Superman is proof of this. The meta is relegated to two or three panels and the story is better off for it. JLA also has no meta elements (IIRC) and it's pretty much the closest thing we got to Kirby's F4 in the modern era in terms of sheer ideas.

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If I plan on stopping around 1990 but I want to read some Apocalypse just to see what the big deal is what would you suggest I jump to?

>>87769272
Fall of the Mutants

>>87759070
Judgement Day is pretty important despite not being mentioned much, because this is a story where it's explained that Celestials considered Earth worthy due to mutants. Never before or after Celestials had such major role in X-Men lore (except Gillen's early issues on revamped Uncanny)

>>87769035
It was also done because Marvel wanted to. I remember they said that as well.

>>87769072
Calisto/Moira is better

>>87766087
it's sad, because the writer in question was highly regarded, enough to get his own x-book, but due to some controversy people started abandoning the ship

>>87769072

Claremont shipped Callisto with Colossus, tho.

>>87769251
Oh yeah. You're correct. His Superman was awesome.

>>87744817
Pretty much this.
Most writers from the 90's onward are either ignorant of how the system works, stubbornly reject it, overestimate the number of issues they get, or relent to editorial.

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>>87744679
Best x men thread in ages

>>87769212
He's written both good and bad stories with and without meta-commentary.

The meta is completely divorced from whether his story is good or not (in the sense that it isn't an inherent problem, not that it is incapable of being part of the problem).

>>87769901
I'm kind of shocked whenever /co/ actually talks about comics.

>>87769919
>/co/
>reading comics
We actually LOVE the good stuff, that's why we bitch so much when they suck. Cosmic Marvel threads or about Rightclops are usually great.

>>87769035
Even if fans hadn't done anything, Marvel wouldn't have let them done it. There were pretty powerful people who wouldn't allow it. Whedon, Bendis. It has bee nthat way as far back as the days of Excalibur, where it wasn't long after Claremont left that they completely outdid any implications that happened with Sat-Yr-9. I think the writers like the subcontext of Kitty maybe being a lesbian, but the moment the subcontext starts becoming more than just subcontext, they slam the breaks as hard as they can.

What was the WORST thing Claremont did?

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The Legacy of Claremont
1/3

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>>87771923
All Hail The Shadow King
2/3

>>87771746
Not sure, but the first thing that came to mind was that one time Wolverine almost killed Rachel to save Selene. That was one big bunch of wtf.

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>>87771952
3/3

>>87771746
he left the x-men while he was a head

>>87771954
it wasn't. Wolverine was scared that Rachel would become a Dark Phoenix just like Jeannie did. That's why he chose to kill her, before he went full evil

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>>87771746

No question it's The Girls School from Heck arc from Excalibur

All of Claremont's fetishes, Kittywank and worst tendencies as a writer rolled up into one arc and he can't even be bothered to come up with a plot that makes sense.. I really can't do it justice, it's just pure garbage.

>>87771972
>Wolverine was scared that Rachel would become a Dark Phoenix just like Jeannie did. That's why he chose to kill her, before he went full evil
I got that much, just recently, but still, he could've stabbity stabbed Selene to death instead of Rachel. The Dark Phoenix took a bit to happen.

Hell, does he have any clue of what she did in her timeline? Still she managed to get over it.

Also, I felt like this video was appropriate for this thread
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpaRouocBes

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>>87771746

For me, I'd say it was ninja Psylocke.
I loved original British Psylocke: classy, nice look with a unique power signature. Even though she was "physically weak" she was still able to hold off sabertooth (UXM 213, I think...?).

Then when she got the armor, she looked pretty badass (especially under Silvestri's pencils).
>pic related. I'd buy a figure of her in this costume in a heartbeat.

Then she became the asian ninja, which led to some dreadful stories with the body swap thing.

>>87772074

>Anyhow, as it turns out, Claremont confirmed in a 1991 Comics Interview interview that Wolverine was afraid that killing Selene would trigger Rachel turning into Dark Phoenix, and thus he felt that he had to kill her to avoid the much worse fate of Rachel becoming Dark Phoenix. That honestly makes a lot of sense. It’s not in the actual comic, but it DOES make a lot of sense.

>EDITED TO ADD: Commenter Michael noted that Claremont had actually first given the “Dark Phoenix” explanation a year earlier in the 1990 Uncanny X-Men Annual, where Wolverine encountered Rachel for the first time since the stabbing (she was there with Franklin Richards from the future)…

>>87772074
It's a long topic that I don't have power to discuss today. The X-Men didn't have the full knowledge of who Selene was, otherwise sniktbub would kill them both, but it was done on puprose, keep in mind that Claremont's X-Men were flawed and made a lot of mistakes that costed them dearly, they weren't some geniuses, they made a choice, and every choice costed them dearly.

In regards to Logan, it was instinct, for all his attempt at being a human being, he acted like an animal.

Also, it pisses me off that we will never get the Claremont/Leonardi Phoenix Mini that was supposed to fill in the blanks when Spiral took Rachel to Mojoworld

However, I can storytime the pencilled first issue

>>87771954
>>87772074

Like >>87771972 said, Wolverine saw Rachel as a bigger threat. Remember, just a few issues before she basically took everyone's essence/ mind-raped/ whatever without permission to take on the Beyonder. Logan saw she was on a slippery slope. I actually quite enjoyed that bit, and I loved Rachel Summers.

>>87766226

>I was so disappointed nothing came out of white king magneto

Claremont got beat by people who were hardline "Magneto is an evil monster, irredeemable" in editorial.

>>87771952
>nobody is going to comment on that page
:(

>>87772055
I want a comprehensive list of Claremont's fetishes.

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>>87746262
>Is there a good chronological Claremont reading guide
I made one for myself. It's still in the works and I'm open for suggestions.

I dived it up into primary books (Uncanny X-Men, X-Men) secondary spin offs/mini series, and tertiary books that are important for the over arching backdrop of all the x-men and it's extended cast.

>>87772135
That would be neat. Marvel should really release that now, since they're running out of good new stuff anyways.

>>87772119
I'm kinda surprised I figured that on my own. I think I remember him saying something about "making mutants look bad" or whatever, which didn't make sense while stabbing a teenager to death.

>>87772119
>>87772135
It could have turned even worse, just imagine that: she could have ende up killing him in self defense, and that would be way more likely to trigger Dark Phoenix to happen.

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>>87772213

I'll start:

1.

>>87772213
Mind control with corruption of the innocent and slavery (the more spikes and chains the better), tentacles, all females are borderline lesbians especially if they're young, strange bodymorphing... What am I forgetting?

>>87772205
Frickin' saved, actually. I don't recall seeing Shadow King in that form. Maybe this wasn't published in my country.

Also "broken", lol... the fool doesn't realize that Lian girl is enjoying taking those jabs at him.

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>>87772220

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>>87772246

2.

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>>87772233
>That would be neat. Marvel should really release that now, since they're running out of good new stuff anyways.
Okay, you asked for it
The fact that it's only pencils, and you can still understand what the hell is going on is a testament to both Claremont and Leonardi.

They don't make them today, like they used to do, amirite?

Also, one of the reasons that X-Men always provoke an interesting discussion is because they were very often a gateway to the more ambitious comics, as well as comics in general. X-Men, Spider-Man, Batman and Superman. And maybe Green Lantern. And Lobo. Without them, comics would have died decades ago.

>>87772275
It was in mine, and I live in shithole.

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>>87772304
these are from some different collection, I don't know if they were supposed to be #2 or #1, only 4 pages anyway, and after that the real storytime begins, but only pictures and no words

>>87772246
I can't read shit like that.
I legit just can't. I've been meaning to read X-Men but fuck me if that's an important issue.

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>>87772326

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>>87772344

>>87772332
you shouldn't think like that. Claremont always followed the Shooter's school of thought that "every issue is someone's first", therefore it HAS to be accessible. Everything you don't get is explained in the caption boxes.

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>>87772355
Okay, now the real storytime
1/9

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>>87772366

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>>87772383

>>87772355
I usually don't care about "important" shit or what is/isn't canon, I'm just saying fuck me if that just happens to be the issue where an incredible turnabout in the series dynamic happens because I refuse to read something only one step above diaperfur.

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>>87772397

>>87772400
and let me repeat that there are many issues like #172 where a lot of "important" things happen, but they aren't in your face. it was already mentioned, but Claremont loved to put the seeds here and there. If something MAJOR happened, it was usually spelled out frequently, so you don't have to worry either.

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>>87772427
...along with the editorial note which issue had the "happening" you might have missed. the editorial back then was actually doing its job

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>>87772442
in other words, it was designed in a way that you could skip the book for a year, and if you felt that you missed something important, there was always a caption box with an info

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>>87772463

>>87772427
I don't know why I gotta clarify this. I know you don't really have to read any other Marvel comic to understand another (good one, at least). Shit, you can read plenty of stuff with no Marvel knowledge at all even today.

I'm saying I hope that issue is just thoroughly shit and nothing interesting hatoday, because it'd be a shame if I skipped something good. Recaps and narration boxes aren't a substitute for a story actually occuring.

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>>87772473


>>87772489
I know, it's just that caption boxes give you an info on when something of interest to you happened, like "that was explained in #228 - ed.", etc. therefore you don't have to worry.

it's important because the comics back then were much more convoluted and heavier in terms on continuity, yet, people didn't have problem with back issues and catching up

Therefore, I offer relaxation. Will you take the gift I offer?

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>>87772518
END

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>>87772400
Did someone say diapers...?

And yes, this was an important issue (Inferno event tie-in)

>>87772572
>mfw I've read this as aryan cardigan
>you get it?
>bcs Kitty is jewish

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>>87772619

>>87772532
This whole thing was set in the Mojoverse?

>>87772587

Wait, Kitty is Jewish? Since when? Why did Claremont never make this explicitly clear?

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>>87772636

>>87772653
Body Shoppe to be exact. The particular posted fragment was a flashback. It was a 4 issue mini. The ending would probably be about Rachel going back to 616

>>87772659
>being this new

>>87772619
Nice. Do they still draw her as an asian, btw?

>>87772518
No, because you're not saying "that issue was garbage", meaning I can safely skip it. For all I know this only occurs for one page and the reat is the greatest X-Men adventure ever told.

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>>87772692
Byrne redoing the classic cover

>>87772697
yes, ableit, it's hard to call Land's "art" a drawing

>>87772692
I thought maybe some of that was already a movie being shot.

Also maybe >>87772659 was being ironic?

>>87772700
hmmm... Now I see your point. The thing is, it's friday, I thought that we would avoid serious discussions and just have fun with random scans.

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>>87772055
I liked it.
The girls were cool.
One wanted Kurt's fuzzy blue D.

>>87772730
We don't have dialogue, plot, script. Only art.
We have to guess what they are saying.
It's very frustrating, as the mini was being created for years before being shelved. At the same time, another Claremont / Leonardi's novel - True Friends, was eventually published.

What makes Phoenix really important is the Franklin / Rachel connection.

>>87772773
>DAFT

>Punk

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The original Excalibur series from 2004 (set after Morrison's run) had Kordey's pencils. The whole thing is avalaible for download, if you look hard enough

>>87772711
I was gonna mention "aside from Land", since neither his favorite models, pornstars or Sandra Bullock aren't asian anyway, so he's got nothing to trace from.

>>87772902
that's the exact same thing that his wife is saying about his dick

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>zoophilia moment from unpublished Fallen Angels II

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>>87772996

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Page from unused Emma Frost - Icons mini.
Instead we got the ongoing, but I don't understand why we couldn't have both

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Here is how Byrne imagine Wolverine under the cape. It's actually what Sabretooth had become

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Originally, God Loves Man Kills was pencilled by Neal Adams

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>>87773103

>>87772996
People forgot to mention the one time he inclue yiffin' in Asgardian Wars II, for sure.
Love that story in general.

>>87769203
>Blevins
DAT Gossamyr...

>>87771746
Murdering the Exiles brand.

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>>87772213
OOP GUESS IT'S THAT TIME OF THE YEAR AGAIN

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>>87773422

A reminder: the famous X-Men logo debuted on the claasic X-Men issue #50 and was designed by Jim Steranko

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>>87773435

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>>87773453

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>>87773468

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>>87773496

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>>87773515

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>>87773542

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>>87773567

>>87773422
>>87773435
>>87773453
>Bukkake/Vore combo
Christ.

I miss the Golden Age, where writers and artists dealt with their sexual frustration by drawing hot girls.

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>>87773590

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>>87773615
>>87773603
WE'RE NOT EVEN HALFWAY THROUGH

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>>87773645

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>>87773671

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>>87773688

Man, >>87768767 wasn't joking, Claremont would be cooked on a stick if he did any of this on current Marvel

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>>87773719

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>>87773741

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>>87773762

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>>87773793

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>>87773822

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>>87773848

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>>87773931

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>>87773962

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>>87773985

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>>87774011