>The language of the mystic arts is as old as civilization.

>>87592829
They're not saying 'magic is just advanced science', they're saying 'science is just primitive magic'.

The difference is presentation.

>>87592829
She was just using terms he would understand.

>>87592829
It's an analogy.

>>87592829
She dumbed it down for him, because apparently "spell" is too hokey for a modern man, wven though it's a fucking spell

>>87592829
It seems more like they're taking the piss out of that idea since they make a point to say that treating magic like magic seems to offend modern sensibilities so if it makes you feel better church it up with modern sounding jargon, it's of no consequence.

>>87592829
>DUDE SCIENCE, LMAO!!!!

I hate western media.

>>87592829
>This sounds a lot like Thor's "Magic is just advanced science"

Yeah, they never actually said that in Thor. They kept it vague as fuck, but then some people decided that vagueness meant that magic didn't exist in the movie universe. All that happened was Jane tried to reason that Thor's magic is possible but science just doesn't understand it, and Thor essentially said that it's all the same shit to him.

None of the characters in the Thor movies who use magic ever insinuated that what they do is anything other than magic. It was just a few humans trying to understand what the hell magic is on their own terms. I don't know why people would assume that the human characters are the authority on what magic is within the movie's universe, while ignoring the actual characters who use magic who say that yeah it's magic. It looks like magic, it acts like magic, so why wouldn't it be magic?

But I guess if you read some post by an anonymous moron saying the MCU magic is just technology, it's easier to believe it than actually thinking about the source material, because it might take some effort to actually pay attention to what happened in a movie.


That scene in Doctor Strange is actually a good response(whether intentional or not) to the kind of people who believed that MCU doesn't have magic. It shouldn't matter what word you call it, it shouldn't matter if you were only half-paying attention to what's going on and thought someone said it was science-- it looks like magic, it acts like magic, you can call it whatever you want, but it's clearly magic.

>>87592829
>This sounds a lot like Thor's "Magic is just advanced science"
That wasn't what happened in Thor at all
The magic in Thor wasn't science it was just so well understood by the asgardians that it was and everyday fact of life making it indistinguishable from any other natural phenomenon, that doesn't mean it isn't supernatural.
And in Dr Strange she was just using programming as a metaphor to describe how magic works.

Its a metaphor, genius. She even mentions that she's using the computer programming metaphor because she's assuming he's too close minded to handle the idea of magic spells yet.

>>87592829
She pretty much says outright "yeah it's magic, but you can call it advanced science to make yourself feel better".

>>87592829
>I thought
you thought wrong

>>87592829

It's like you've never heard an analogy before, Jesus fucking Christ, I thought people who posted here had to have at least a minimum of literacy and intelligence.

>>87592893
Oh nice, that's a nice way of putting it.

Cool.

>>87592829
The mystic arts are older than civilisation.

Oshtur and Chthon, it's two founders, were among the first lifeforms on Earth.

>>87592829
>>87595580
Yeah, it's actually the opposite to Thor, where it was "It's science, but it's so advanced you might as well call it magic if you want"

>>87592893

Interesting.

I actually liked this explanation, it very similiar to how wizards cast spells in dnd

>>87594064
They actually did, when Thor is talking to Jane he mentions that they have really advanced tech that humans call magic or runes.

Also when Odin strips Thor of his runes they look like broken machinery.

Finally, every single piece of anything in Asgard is treated as tech, from the holo-medical beds to the space ships that look like sailship.

>>87595497
If it occurs in nature, it is, by definition, natural. I get what you're trying to say though.

>>87596373
While in fiction there is Clarke's third law "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
There is also the opposite "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science"
The magic in the MCU is the second.
If a scientist went to hogwarts and spent years studying how magic works and perform experiments that showed consistent results on how it works would it suddenly stop being magic?

>>87596495
It doesn't. Magic is just natural in that world. It's a measurable, observable force. Same as gravity.

>>87596367
Most of the really bad stuff was from Thor2. In the first film, I took Thor's explanation to mean something closer to 'We learn magic, in the same way that you learn sciences'. Like he's basically just trying to explain to her how his society works.
Then Dark World rolled around with it's whole, 'We are not Gods!' / Jane explaining all the Asgard tech bullshit

>>87596536
The problem is, if magic is a repeatable, constant and studied phenomenon, than it's a science, by definition. Any work of fiction where a character can 'learn' to do magic would technically be presenting an in-universe scientific phenomenon. Like you said, a fundamental force. Just usually, the characters don't actually know why it works, hence magic.

>/co/ doesn't understand analogies

>>87597536
What did you expect? This is a board for capeshit and children's programming. writing has to be on the nose.

>>87597949
What did you mean by that

>>87597487
>with it's whole, 'We are not Gods!' / Jane explaining all the Asgard tech bullshit
That was Odin having a momentary moment of frustration leading him to admit to that they are far from the biggest fish in the cosmos. Which they aren't. Not even in the canon where they were all created by earth's sentient energy biosphere at the dawn of life.

>>87592829
>>87595580
>>87596289
It is magic. But it's also a science. Hence how they are able to study it at all.
I really have no idea why this is always made such a big deal around here.

Quick question, does this type of magic relate in any way to what Iron Fist can do or are those different things entirely? I know none of you really know how MCU is gonna portray it but, it's still magic right?

>>87598032
I liked that Odin fucked an Elder God so he could conceive the strongest Asgardian possible.

>>87598115
Marvel has more than one kind of magic (see Wanda/Billy). They can do whatever they want with Iron Fist without causing problems.

>>87592893
First post best post

>>87598115
Iron Fist's chi, the spiritual energy of his body, is bonded with and enhanced by the chi of a dragon, a supernatural creature from the alternate dimension of K'un L'un.

So...sorta exactly like the Ancient One described how spells work, except all Danny knows how to do is enhance his physical properties like make his punches more powerful or heal faster.

>>87598420
I mean, that's a guess based on how it works in the comics.

>>87592829
Why should the movies presentation of the magic be used to override the perspective of individual characters?

>>87598420
I see. so he's sort of like Pangborn in a way where he can draw power from another dimension but he's not a full blown sorceror

>>87597487
>The problem is, if magic is a repeatable, constant and studied phenomenon, than it's a science, by definition. Any work of fiction where a character can 'learn' to do magic would technically be presenting an in-universe scientific phenomenon. Like you said, a fundamental force. Just usually, the characters don't actually know why it works, hence magic.
You've summed up my problem with most of the modern fantasy games and literature. They all have a need to overanalyze and explain the magic, while still insisting it's magic.

Ironically science fiction, with its "Bounce the tachyon particle beam off the main deflector dish" has a much better grasp of how magic should work than modern fantasy does.

>>87600367
I think definitive trait of magic as it currently presented is sentience. Graviton particle beam will always be the same basic-level particles, even if it's completely bullshit technobable and would have no mind of its own, while magic, no matter how analyzed will be rooted in words, symbols, will, mind of individual and so on.

Science fiction would never just be about waving your wand and saying magic words. Unless wand is a control rode for nanites in the air or something. But with magic, your words and will have power of their own.

Why was the antagonist so weak he got beaten by an apprentice wizard and why was a timeless elder god so impatient he couldn't just wait for the mortal to go insane and/or torture him

>>87600640
Because that apprentice had a ludicrous time spell, and if you didn't notice, Dormammu DID torture him.

>>87600720
No he killed him. Just waterboard Strange for 100 years

>>87600640
>and why was a timeless elder god so impatient
You just answered your own question. Dormammu has never experienced time, why would he know patience?

More importantly in the end Strange was in fact the one holding Dormammu prisoner. Strange has the time gem so he can manipulate his experience of time however he pleases, it's Dormammu who only experiences the same looping instant over and over with no variation. It's like having a false awakening, you might know you're in no real harm but you'd really like to wake up after awhile and get on with shit.