So; """"old fags"""",

Heroic Age era was pretty mediocre.

Marvel Now was decent.

>>87392764
Some anon said it before but I'll just reiterate using my own words.

Marvel was already on the downslope with Bendis at the helm of Avengers. First with Disassembled, then with what came next. Civil War and One More Day were all signs of what the future would bring. This was all before the Disney buyout.

Things were already going bad, but Disney just made them worse. With the mainstream media attention of the movies, came the need to pander to movie casuals, and the uprising of "progressive" journalists and critics.

>Newfags will come ITT and start shitposting about the diversity and SJW boogeyman

Just watch.

>>87392840
Maybe you should actually contribute to discussion rather than shitpost yourself.

>>87392864
triggered shitposters detected

>>87392764
Marvel, as a company, has always been shit. The Fantastic Four were a direct order from the top to rip off The Justice League. Secret Wars was literally made to beat CoIE to the company wide punch, and was a forced toy commercial to boot. The only reason they ever had any great comics was because talent like Kirby, Ditko, Gerber, Starlin etc. were able to utilize unpopular characters while the editors werent looking.
Read Marvel Comics: The Untold Story. Its a great read and really illuminates just how shit Marvel has been, and how fucking vain Stan Lee is.

>>87392764

No, Bendis Avengers, Fraction X-Men, Waypool blowing up there was the handful of strange offbeat things like Herc or the cosmic stuff but it wasn't great overall

>>87392902
triggered shitposter detected

>>87392764
You can't even be bothered to go back a decade and read some comics? The 00's are a mixed bag, just like every other fucking decade.

>>87392764
The more I look at it, Marvel tries to paint itself as a innovator with the house of ideas and such. But it purely imitates.

When you look at the silver-age it was nothing more than copying what was popular at the time, which was sci-fi and the atomic age. When you look at the 70s it becomes more apperant. You have iron fist and shang-chi who were created in response to Kung fu movies and Bruce lee. Luke cage is a blacksploitation character, and the dazzler was disco(even though disco had died by the time dazzler came out). And when you look at current age Marvel they are doing it again, attempting to imitate the diversity trends.

Can't this board go one hour without someone making another anti-Marvel thread?

>>87395407
I don't think OP is going for anti-marvel. He seems to want decent discussion, enough to properly understand how Marvel has been in the recent past. I have to respect that.

>>87395407
No, it's a meme now. People are not exaggerating when they say TORtanic ruined this site. Everything is some gigantic EBIN FAIL XD raid now.

>>87395407
>>87395510
>>87395800
why are you so asspained about people hating Marvel? Why not try to illuminate some of the good they did? Like how they only included creator royalties after DC did it, and refused to actually call them royalties because that legally implies the creator owns the work he made and they dont want to get sued. Or like how Lee wasted a bunch of company money throwing a concert/show for himself to promote the Stan Lee character (granted he was spurred to do so by a hollywood promoter, but still). Or how their own attempt to do creator owned works (Epic) failed horribly.

>>87396003
Because we can't fucking discuss comics anymore without it turning into console war shit. And the heavy-handed pro-DC bias lately is really getting out of hand. DC can do no wrong at this point and everything that Marvel does is a catastrophe.

But yeah I really should get that Untold Stories book

>>87396053
there is plenty of comic discussion, and if you want more start a thread about it like I do. Most of the time when I want to talk about A Contract With God or Claremont X-Men I get a pretty good response. This thread is specifically about Marvel the company, and I see no problem pointing out all the shit Marvel has done because they have always been a shitty company. Since day fucking one. And when they are constantly screwing the comic creators I admire, denying them their art, their creator status, and their royalties, then I feel like its justified shitting on them.


DC has done shit in the past, dont get me wrong, but at least they are willing to change and a tone for it. They started the trend of giving royalties to creators. When Levitz was in charge, he gave money to comic creators whose work was used in movies. For example, Len Wein, creator of Wolverine and the Batman character Lucious Fox, once said that while he barely made any money from the Wolverine movies, he got so much money from The Dark Knight Returns that he was able to get a new house (and that was just from creating a supporting character).


Source: http://www.cbr.com/quote-of-the-day-lucius-fox-bought-my-new-house/


I'm pretty sure DC has kept this policy in place, albeit to a much lesser extent then they did under Levitz. They also were willing to finally give Finger credit for Batman, while Marvel hasnt dont shit in terms of giving cheated creators credit for anything. Hell, Stan Lee is getting cameos in fucking Captain America movies, a character created by Kirby and Simon when Lee was just an intern!


The whole Stan Lee name was created by Lee was too embarrassed by comics to associate his real name with them.


Marvel is absolute trash.

>>87392764
>Was Marvel at a better place creatively prior to the Iron Man movie release and the Disney Merger the fallowing year?

Ultimates 3
Ultimatum (this was out in 2009, but was well under way before Disney's buyout of Marvel was announced)
Sins Past
One More Day
Avengers Disassembled

No, I'd say they weren't in a good spot creatively. It was going to be inevitable.

>>87396245
>2009
Holy fuck it feels like it was longer

>>87394835
>The Fantastic Four
Not the Avengers? Because the FF look more like The Challengers of the Unknown than the JL.

Marvel movies were better with Paramount. Phase 1 > Phase 2 & 3
Prove me wrong.
You can't.

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>>87396230
That will never stop triggering me.

>>87396245
There was still good coming out at that time though. Hickman's Fantastic Four for example.

Since Jemas left it's been downhill for nuMarvel

>>87396382
Iron Man and Avengers were the only good phase 1 movies. Phase 2 had Guardians of the Galaxy, Winter Soldier, Ant Man and (IMO) Age If Ultron.

>>87396053
its really fucked. Literally a year ago it was the other way around with DC fucking shit up

>>87396379
Not the Avengers at all. Martin Goodman, owner of what would become Marvel comics, literally told Stan Lee to rip off the Justice League after he had a game of golf with the head of DC. Lee and Kirby go together and created the Fantastic Four (they both have different accounts of this meeting and the creation).

And yes, there are plenty of challengers of the unknown ideas in there, but thats because that was also created by Kirby and he liked to refine his ideas across companies.

>>87396519
age of ultron is absolute trash, and I cant stand GoTG upon rewatching

Marvel is so lucky their movies have been decent. Without that, they would be incredibly fucked. And at the same time,you can say he same for DC, good comics, shit movies.

>>87396531
the only thing DC fucked up was with the nu52, they have had an overall good track record as a company.

Its gone periods of good creativity and then back to a downward slope. I reckon after Queasada left And alonso took over Marvel overall kinda lost its creativity.

I mean seriously aside for OMD, JoeQ turned Marvel around after Jemas fucked it over.

Events since Secret Invasion weren't as good I guess but their aftermath was always super fun. Remember how good KidLoki series was after Fear Itself? Or that fun New Mutants/Journey into Mystery crossover?

Hell the first Marvel Now genuinely had a lot of hype. Superior Spidey was praised big time by showing a lot of promise, Waid was on DD and it was amazing, Waid on Hulk was crazy fun as well, Hickmans Avengers was fucking hyped big time, Fraction was doing ScottLangs FF, Aarons God Butcher Thor arc was fantastic, Remender was on Cap and doing uncanny avengers.

They seemed to be going upwards after a tiny decline post-fear itself launches gave us (remember the bitching of how shit aarons hulk was?) and after a shitty AVX event things were looking up.

The backlash basically started after marvels like 2nd or 3rd Marvel Now Relaunch as they tried doing retarded shit. The decline is only recent but I reckon they will pick themselves up again in a year or so.

>>87396627
>shit movies.
>>87396640
>the only thing DC fucked up was with the nu52
Nah.

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>>87394835
you're the same faggot from the thread the other day

to answer OP's question

creatively Marvel was trying new things pre-disney

> people bitch about bendis on avengers, but 1) it was selling like fire and 2) he still had the GOAT daredevil run and ult spidey was loved by fans and critics

> based brubaker was killing it on daredevil and cap

> people hated on millar but civil war shaped the universe still today and ultimates was amazing

> annihilation brought the cosmic shit back to life. they got based DnA to be the guys in charge of that whole corner of the universe

> got young and upcoming talent like fraction, remender, aaron, to write for them, along with a fuckton of great artists

> PAD was always good, pak hulk was hype

it's not necessarily disney's fault, it's just that after the studio took off quesada spent more time over on the tv/film side and he is simply a better EiC than alonso. axe is a great editor but not the top boss. people hate quesada for OMD but he's probably marvel's best EiC after stan himself, maybe shooter.

now the movies are huge so disney will want the comics to cater to casuals and other shit for "casual & secondary" fandoms, so all the real comic talent is gone

ironically DC is at the place where marvel was at in 2005-2010 right when the MCU was about to take off, right now. they have tons of talent and are trying some new shit. DC's movies being shit is actually saving the comic side from going full SYNERGY. you're still seeing it a little like we're never going to get a suicide squad comic without harley again.

but you bet your ass if they figure out the DCEU and it is fully successful you're going to get AT&T suits telling WB/DC what to do. suits ruin everything

>>87396668
guy above is a delusional dumb fuck I swear. Do DC fans have memories of a fucking gold fish? Literally a year ago before Rebirth was even a thing they were bitching more about their company than Marvel fags

>>87396698
>ultimates was amazing
Don't forget his X-Men. Hell, it was even good under fucking Bendis. Of course when Vaughn and Kirkman came it all went downhill, but same happened to every Ultimate title.

>>87396519
>Iron Man and Avengers
And First Avenger.
And The Incredible Hulk.
Also, Avengers is shit.

>>87396668
>>87396721
please tell me how else DC fucked up other than the nu52? And I liked DCYou DC because it gave us Omega Men and Prez.

>telling me what I was feeling


marvel drones have reached a new low

>>87396698
>bendis had the GOAT daredevil run
>not Miller

haha oh wow


and i never said they werent good creatively, but as a company they are shit. There is reason why every good writer and artist left Marvel at some point, and most went to DC.

>>87396698
Fraction and Remender both ended up being averagy writers. Fraction's hawkeye is super cringy in retrospect.

>>87396759
i forgot about BKV and krikman too. yeah marvel had an insane stable of talent. they even had gaiman do that eternals mini. mike carey on x-men legacy, of course morrison on x-men as well. based warren ellis doing thunderbolts

hickman almost saved ultimates, shame he had to leave

i like ewing as a CRAZY WILD writer but he is absolutely shitting on ultimate reed's character and it triggers me every fucking time

like the another anon said here >>87396667
after quesada left the comic side it definitely declined. and now within the last year it's gotten way worse. they're handing out meme books to meme writers like fucking kate leth or chris sims. sims would NEVER had gotten a job with quesada at the helm. it's all cronyism now

>>87396698
you aren't actually denying anything the guy you replied to said btw.

>>87392814
I don't know man.

I love the shit out of Disassembled and New Avengers - well they really didn't do shit in Bendis run but still has my favorite first arc.

I also loved how a Event was the cataclysm from another event or status quo.

House of M was short but good
Civil War was ... a mess but still a great concept and for me a good ending and gave us Initiative
WWH was consistent but to much one-sided
Secret Invasion should had been way better, same with Dark Reign such a great concept but not really well used

They pander in that period to the crossovers.
Thanks to that I think more people started to read comic-books.

I would say Marvel right now is the same as The Walking Dead just a shitshow for casuals and people with no brain: The writing is shit, the directing is shit and they survive based of shock value

>>87396802
Just because u liked that shit doesnt mean everyone else did you dumb cunt. DCYou despite their good titles bombed because they weren't as fucking interesting.

Also the new 52 is a big fuck up because it lasted 5 fucking years that derailed a lot of their characters before DC wised up with Rebirth. Which started CURRENT YEAR.

If Marvel's bullshit SJW campaign lasts that long then you might have a fucking point.

>>87396859
fraction's iron man was pretty good when it started and loved. him and brubaker's iron fist is still incredible. i hated his x-men stuff but some people liked it so whatever to that

remender's uncanny x-force is beyond incredible though. cap and secret avengers were solid too

>>87392814
Disney don't demand them anything besides the FF and Xmen ban, it is coming from the comic department.

Synergi is Bendis and cia idea.

>>87396831
Wasnt it the other way around before Marvel Now? Waid was a really good DC writer before jumping ship to Marvel. The jump ship included Brubaker and a bunch of other writers that made 2000s Marvel era memorable as well.

All because of that hack Didio fucking shit up with his silver age + edgy wankfest that slowly transformed into the new 52 before Based Johns saved us.

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>>87396882
>>87396721

>>87396882
but Marvel has always been shit and continually abuses its creators

>>87396947
Didio is the reason we have titles like Flinstones, All Star Western (from nu52) and Omega Men. He likes good comics.

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>>87396698
>talent like fraction, remender, aaron
>people bitch about bendis on avengers, but 1) it was selling like fire
>people hated on millar but civil war shaped the universe still today and ultimates was amazing
>DC's movies being shit

>>87397027
Shh, let him go full Outhousers. He'd rather die than admitting Didio can do good things.

>>87396868
he's a surface fag

he read some memes about MUH JACK KIRBY AND DITKO GOT RAPED BY STAN LEE when in reality it's not black & white

it's much more complicated than that. kirby wasn't infallible, he made mistakes and had bad ideas too

a company sees one company doing something successful of course they will imitate. that's business. ferarri didn't invent cars but they certainly have nice ones. it's the same thing. to act like justice league was the greatest thing since sliced bread is a joke. it was DC saying "hmmm all these characters are selling, let's put them in one big book so we can sell more"

wow, bravo, such an amazingly original idea, they looked at baseball and made an all-star team, kek. even then F4 was kirby being unsatisfied at DC fucking up challengers of the unknown and lee recognizing the talent and letting kirby have more control

>>87396480
It is but arguably the early 00's was better for Marvel quality wise compared to late 00's. Even with Chuck Austen on board. And late 00's Marvel was better than now.

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>>87397000
This.

>>87397076
>leave muh Stan alone!
Hi The Sheeple! Still assfucked by your bosses and enjoying it?

>>87397027
he also wanted to kill off nightwing during IC, everything shit that happened to cassandra cain, bringing back barry, fucking over kyle/stewart for hal, absolutely shitting on kirby's legacy with the new gods,the shitty outsiders run, and ruining 52 with that awful WW3 bullshit

>>87397104
The pre-Shooter days, when Starlin did drugs before start writing.

>>87397128
>cassandra cain
Stopped reading there.

>>87397076
I was the guy you were replying to, and try actually learning some comic history and read the fucking post. you are the biggest marvel drone ive ever seen, are you going to deny


>DC has done shit in the past, dont get me wrong, but at least they are willing to change and a tone for it. They started the trend of giving royalties to creators. When Levitz was in charge, he gave money to comic creators whose work was used in movies. For example, Len Wein, creator of Wolverine and the Batman character Lucious Fox, once said that while he barely made any money from the Wolverine movies, he got so much money from The Dark Knight Returns that he was able to get a new house (and that was just from creating a supporting character).


Source: http://www.cbr.com/quote-of-the-day-lucius-fox-bought-my-new-house/
Marvel is absolute SHIT to its creators

>>87396859
I don't know, i went back and read Hawkeye again a few weeks ago and it still holds up ok. It reads much better as a whole than a s a monthly, i'll say that much.

>>87397182
>LE PIZZA DOGE XD

>>87396480
Hickman's FF started around the time Disney buyout was announced. Before that it was Millar/Hitch which had its moments but kind of mediocre.

>>87396640
Don't forget the implosion of '78.

>>87396868
no one brought up Lee fucking over Kirby but you. It was the marvel company that fucked over kirby, denying him his original art.


Also do you know anything about how Gerber got fucked out of Howard The Duck rights? Or how Shooter would force people to redo entire comics in a weekend? Or how Marvel managed to drive away O'Neil, Starlin, Miller, Kirby, Byrne, and more with their terrible editorial and business practices?


Get our head out of your ass you shill.

When SJW's run your company you're bound to produce garbage.

They are lucky their movies are doing so well. Because they'd be fucked otherwise.

>>87397202
I think you responded to the wrong post.

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>>87397040
triggered?

http://desuarchive.org/co/search/image/koFQD9Phy5FCslFNp-Xy3w/

> talent like fraction, remender, aaron
yes they used to be great. aaron's wolverine was loved, his immortal weapons were great, had an epic ghost rider run, and did a great black panther. his thor was amazing until femthor where it went off the rails
i've already mentioned fraction and remender above

>people bitch about bendis on avengers, but 1) it was selling like fire
the people who bitched about bendis avengers were traditionalists. they wanted kang to show up for the umptheeth time or ultron or something boring like that. bendis recognized that they should be the premier marvel team not the x-men. i disagree with some of the shit he did but he gave it a huge shot in the arm. hickvengers and illuminati would've never happened without it

>people hated on millar but civil war shaped the universe still today and ultimates was amazing
if you don't think vol 1/2 of ultimates is good then you don't understand comics

>DC's movies being shit
they are. i guess this just means you're a DCEU apologist

>>87397214
Oh I was, thanks

>>87397202
This was meant for
>>87397076

fucking shill

>>87397197
They didn't create it; that was Martin Goodman.

>>87397076
>just mention some okay - good 2000s run
>reply to a post talking about the actual creators and marvel's history
>somehow the other guy is the surface fag


no, YOU are the surface fag. How does Annihilation make up for fucking over Steve Gerber despite Howard The Duck being the company's saving grace at the time?

>>87392840
>>87392864
>>87392902
>>87394929
You guys are literally just yelling "No, you!" at each other

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>>87397040
>smug reaction image

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>>87397218
>triggered?
No, just bored with shills and--
>if you don't think vol 1/2 of ultimates is good then you don't understand comics
Scratch that, you shills are hilarious!

>>87397027
He's also the dude who OKd New52, which at best was a total mess of a reboot.

>>87397233
how?

>>87397260
you are right
>>87397218
>>87396698
should quit with the reaction images

>>87397269
>One of Martin's outrageously successful business moves during the last years of his tenure at Marvel was to trick the industry's top company, DC Comics (then called National Periodical Publications), into committing an ultimately disastrous page-count and pricing change
More at
http://twomorrows.com/comicbookartist/articles/16goodman.html

>>87397264
Nah, New52 was Harras. You casuals are hilarious.

>>87397290
Thanks! I didn't know that.

>>87397264
>old fart will never forgive Didio for raping his idols
Relax, grandpa. Shall I call the doctor?

>>87397218
>hickvengers and illuminati would've never happened without it

That's not helping your argument.

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>>87397188
>le meme response

>>87397319
You're welcome. And read Twomorrows publications; that people truly love comics and always tell the truth.

>>87397338
But the meme is from the book you were just shilling

>>87397159
i'm not a done at all, you keep trying to paint stan lee as a fucking evil guy when that's simply not true

it's not like kirby isn't a grown ass man who didn't know how to read a contract. do i like it? no, but that is the business and that's what BOTH companies do. it's why fucking image (in theory) is superior

you act like DC didn't just have a new decades long lawsuit with siegel/shuster estates. DC standing idly by and helping bob kane shit all over bill finger. shitting on kirby's new gods, DC trying to strong arm fawcett over shazam

fucking EVERYTHING that every happened to alan moore for god sakes

both companies are corporate at the top and shit on creators. don't pretend that DC's shit doesn't stink. they are equally bad. hell stan himself had to sue marvel. when you work as a contractor for a media company (comics, video games, record label, etc) your creation is their property

>>87397000
The creators of Miss america chavez had to remake her character just to have a solo.

>>87397364
>The Sheeple had to pawn caps and punctuation
Oh boy, are they paying you that bad?

>>87397335
they're both great concepts and loved outside of /co/

only the same hackmanfag autists were shitting on it in every thread but it was always loved during story times, we'd have multiple threads hit the limit discussing it

>>87397256
THE OP IS IS TALKING ABOUT MARVEL AROUND IRON MAN/PRE-DISNEY AND YOU COME IN HERE TO DERAIL ABOUT HOWARD THE DUCK YOU FAGGOT, YOU DID THIS THE OTHER DAY TOO. THIS ISN'T A THREAD ABOUT MARVEL IN THE 60s

>>87397364
No one is mentioning Lee (except for the fact that he did indeed waste a bunch of company money on a fucking concert in his honor) except you son.

I never said DC was innocent, but at least they learn from their mistakes and try to atone. And I'm salty about what happened to Moore, and his friends for that matter, but like you said about Kirby, he is a grown ass man and can read a contract. The thing is, DC kept trying to give Moore money for using his creations but he denied it. Meanwhile, Marvel never tried to give Kirby anything.


and DC never shit on kirby's new gods, they in fact let Kirby do whatever he wanted while he was with them, despite his books (like Kamandi) not selling particularly well at the time.


And I'm glad Stan had to sue Marvel, he aided the beast that now bites him.

>>87397394
MUH PAID SHILLING MEME

go back to /pol/

>>87396934
There's no ban. If there were a ban, they'd stop publishing those titles. Just straight up "we don't want to play" stop.

There's no passive-aggressive semi-ban where you're still making them a quarter of your lineup each month but not half like you used to because that's totally going to show FOX.

They just don't sell well compared to the rest of the line, so a lot of the shit gets cut.

>but Jubilee Kills Deadpool only sold 1500/month!

Nobody cares. Limited series don't have to hit the high sales required of an ongoing (but very low orders can kill them sooner just the same, if the art isn't done yet). Some books, even ongoings, just won't sell for whatever reason. You've got a six-month lead time in which these titles go from script to sale - so most low-ballers get a trade or two, even if their last handful of issues are below cancellation. That's it. Pure economics.

>>87392814
>>87392764
Marvel 16 years ago was almost bankrupt. They literally almost went out of business - they'd lost huge amounts through the crash in the 90s - the market shrank 15% every year for five years before it stabilized - and the early years of the 2000s were tough going

When Quesada came on board the company was fucked. So to help sales he just tried everything - new creators, new lineups like MAX (and finally dumping the CCA forever), changing up the legacy series. New X-Men under Morrison came from that push; House of M came five years later, building on the massive changes Morrison had pushed through. People forget it wasn't Wanda who killed off the X-Men - it was Morrison, by having almost all the world's mutants gather in Genosha, then killing them for shock value

Avengers got the same treatment in 2004; it wasn't selling - X-Men were doing good business at the box office before Marvel was a competitor of FOX, but they'd done good business through the 90s. So they dumped the old Avengers for the New Avengers with Disassembled and went from there.

Sales were great.

>>87397420
>only the same hackmanfag autists were shitting on it in every thread
Oh shit, it's you. I thought you had committed suicide after Shitman left?

>>87397420
>Was Marvel at a better place creatively prior to the Iron Man movie release and the Disney Merger the fallowing year?

He is asking about all time prior to the Iron Man movie, he never denotes a specific period.


You are so triggered its almost not funny.

>>87397305
I hate Bob Harras as much as the next guy, but DiDio was still the one in charge.

>>87397320
Like, even if you like the direction they went it, you can't deny that New52 was terribly planned out.

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>>87397420
>caps

>>87397460
Harras was, and still is, Editor in Chief at the time. It was very much his project. But Didio is the public face.

>>87397436
>The thing is, DC kept trying to give Moore money for using his creations but he denied it.
Except money is not what they actually promised him. Hooray for corporate settlement.

>>87397460
>even if you like the direction they went it, you can't deny that New52 was terribly planned out.
Does not compute. If I liked it, why would I hate it?

>>87397486
Oh shit, does this mean that it is thanks to Harras that DC is doing so well now?

>>87397233
DC had shitty sales all through the 70s, and the late 60s, falling almost consistently year on year, until they'd lost more than half their peak sales by 1980. At that point, Marvel's sales had also been falling for three or four years - but they actually rose in the following years (especially under Shooter with the changes he brought) while DC's stayed more or less the same.

>>87397519
>>87397290

>>87397436
> No one is mentioning Lee
the 6th fucking reply in this fucking thread is the samefag who derailed it into shit about kirby, ditko, lee, gerber, etc. are you blind?

>>87397453
it's me? i have no idea what you're talking about. i was never the guy who hated on hickman. i think people in the threads figured out it was one lone autist. he'd always try to derail scanbro threads by posting the last pages as fast as possible and out of order to spoil it. he was the truly triggered one. sorry you hate hickman. he's a great writer

>>87397457
> He is asking about all time prior to the Iron Man movie, he never denotes a specific period.
> You are so triggered its almost not funny.
can you read the OP?
> prior to the Iron Man movie release and the Disney Merger the fallowing year?
> To my knowledge Bendis was still shitty out events at that time so I am assuming things were still pretty bad
he mentions the iron man movie and disney merger, and bendis. that is a very specific time he's referring to since bendis was 2000s - 2008 (iron man movie)

>>87397513
>accepting flaws in something is the same as hating it

This is the cancer at the heart of the internet.

>>87397513
no, because Rebrith was very specifically a Didio and Johns creation. It was actually Didio's idea first and Johns just put the Flash esque touches on it. I'm not saying Didio had no part in the new 52, but it was largely Harras's idea.

>>87397512
But at least they tried to give the creator something while Marvel didn't. I never said DC was perfect, just better than Marvel.

>>87397480
> 1.jpg
oh so you're a phone poster, it all makes sense

>>87397512
this. it was never about the money, it was about the rights. and then they turn around made watchmen 2 just like alan moore predicted

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>>87397559
>hickman. he's a great writer
No, I was wondering if you're that salty Shitman apologist. But I see you are.

>>87397587
Go offline then.

>>87397448
Your argument is horseshit. If it were true FF were canceled only for low sales, then Inhumans and Silver Surfer would've been canceled long ago. Without any relaunches.

>>87397619
>HE'S USING A PHONE REEEEEEE
JPG Hunter, how are you? I missed you and your tinfoil hat.

>>87397559
>the 6th fucking reply in this fucking thread is the samefag who derailed it into shit about kirby, ditko, lee, gerber, etc. are you blind?

Literally all he says in that post is

>how fucking vain Stan Lee is.

And he is. No where does he blame him for what happened to the other people. You are an idiot.


>he mentions the iron man movie and disney merger, and bendis. that is a very specific time he's referring to since bendis was 2000s - 2008 (iron man movie)

Yes, that is part of the period before the Iron Man movie. That is his knowledge of what happened before the iron man movie. No where does he specifically say he JUST wants knowledge on that era. In fact what he says is

>Was Marvel at a better place creatively prior to the Iron Man movie release


so any time prior is fine.

>>87397624
"MUH SHITMAN"

secret warriors, avengers,new/illuminati, shield
he's a great writer, you're in the minority

>>87397420
What happened in those threads was people with complaints were shouted down and told that if they were reading something they hated they must be autistic, ergo, only those who enjoyed the title had any right to comment on it.

That's not exactly the level of intellectual discourse you'd think Hickman was hoping for when he started writing now is it?

And you know what, toward the end it probably was just the circlejerkers left, because god damn if that wasn't the most plodding slog through dull, lifeless characters and meaningless continuitywank. And the names! Black Swan! Like the Deadpool villain or the movie? Seriously. What was with the Avengers? Hey guys, there's several cosmic-level entities who've been murdering earth people by the millions to see what'd happen, let's put them on the team!

Fucking shit. Viet. Nam. Fucking. Shit.

I sat through Kang Dynasty. I read all the tie-ins to World War Hulk. I even managed to read all of Fear Itself just to see what the fuck was going on in the side titles. But god damn if I haven't met my match in Chucklefuckman's oeuvre.

>>87397420
>they're both great concepts and loved outside of /co/

Yeah, great concepts, but led to weak execution. Bullshit characterization for Captain America. Led to decent FF story in Secret Wars but overall a weak Avengers story.

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>>87397658
Pity that he was too good for Marvel, huh? So he had to leave instead of saving the publisher.

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>>87397658
WHITE EVENT THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN WHITE EVENT THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN WHITE EVENT THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN WHITE EVENT THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN WHITE EVENT THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN WHITE EVENT THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN WHITE EVENT THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN WHITE EVENT THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN WHITE EVENT THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN WHITE EVENT THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN

>>87397539
Mate, the sales figures are all out there. DC had falling sales for over a decade before they levelled off. Frankly, it was 15 years - 1966 to 1981. Whatever Goodman did or didn't do up to 1972, DC had at least 8 years to turn it around and even then only managed to flatten off sales at the lowest they'd ever been.

It's a nice story, but it's just a story. A fairytale way of looking at the reality, which is this: DC was run incredibly poorly for decades.

The last of old Marvel died with Secret Wars 2.

What you are now seeing is Nu-Marvel.

>>87396379
>>87396619
With the FF, the idea for the series was to rip-off the JLA, as in "a superhero group". The idea for the STORY was to rehash the Challengers of the Unknown.
As for the Avengers, it might seem like the idea for the story was to rip off the JLA, as in "a team of previously established heroes join forces", but the idea for the SERIES was "Shit, Bill is late with the Daredevil art, what can we do to fill the slot?"

>>87397735
lol, I like this summary

>>87397726
>I know more that those Twomorrows liars!
K

>>87397692
Oh, he didn't leave over sales or reader fatigue or anything.

He left for similar reasons to the reason they got rid of the Creative Committee. Turns out giving comic book writers (who are basically nerds like us with little to no reach beyond the small pond of comic books) access to studios (where legitimate famous and powerful people work) was a bad idea.

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>>87397640
i don't know who jpg hunter is, i never use a trip

phoneposters lower discussion this is a known fact on 4chan

>>87397668
some of the "complainers" were reading one issue and shitting on him without knowing that it was long arc planned with obvious seeds from his F4 run which they never ran. so they were ignored. then you had the same hackman autists who would ruin threads the very second they started

fear itself was terrible and right when most people checked out on fraction but hickvengers is the best avengers ruin in a decade probably even 2

http://sfdebris.com/videos/special/comic.php

Here's a summary from one of the very few competent internet reviewers.

>>87397762
Weird, according to the shitmanfag his waifu was the best screenwriter that ever existed.

>>87397770
>only dirty casuals post from phones
*tips fedora*

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>>87397692
>>87397762
he wasn't too good, he took a break to do creative stuff at image, he already said he still has some marvel ideas and is coming back in a year or so

he was JUST at the last retreat where they hammer out the next few years in stories

pic very related

The question is, what could make Marvel great again?

>>87397616
Offering Moore what is basically hush money while keeping the rights they promised him and continuing to make mad money over it is pretty much an insult to any self respecting artist. It's not "something". It's almost worse than if they'd done nothing at all.

Not to mention that the fucking Siegel and Shuster issue blew everything Marvel did out of the water just based on how fucking long it lasted.

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>>87397719
confirmed for not reading new universal or the run in general. you probably skimmed a story time every month or so and read a wiki thinking you had it figured out

here's your (you)

>>87392764
Whedon's run on Xmen was the true beginning of the end.

>>87397846
>Not to mention that the fucking Siegel and Shuster issue blew everything Marvel did out of the water just based on how fucking long it lasted.

Lol no, Kirby, Ditko and Gerber all disagree.

>>87397832
Nah man, the guy was like the Cylons: he had a plan but we humans are too stupid to understand it.

>>87397855
>new universal
Ellis'? It was left unfinished as usual.
>you probably skimmed a story time every month
Well, duh. When a writer uses 60 issues to explain what he could have explained in much less, you eventually realize you have to do something better with your time.

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>>87397745
OK, explain why when Goodman left Marvel in 1972 it took 9 years for DC's sales to stop falling.

You're talking about a single, one-time price change gambit that worked out well for Goodman but could just as easily have killed his sales. DC responded by doing something similar but - and this is the kicker - they weren't locked into it. They doubled their page count for a few issues to mask a price rise and normalize it. That's it. It last two months, and people were happy to pay the extra price.

What DC found was that they'd bought an entire year's worth of paper for books that they weren't going to sell, well, hell, nobody forced them to do that. Marvel didn't do it; DC just assumed they had and did what they thought was the same thing.

Also:

>The DC supremacy on the comics racks ended in 1972 after an astonishing 35-year reign, a dynasty suddenly in disarray, scrambling to get back on top, while Martin Goodman sat very prettily indeed, ensconced in his new role as the King of Comics in this New Marvel Age.

1972 was the last time DC and Marvel enjoyed the same average annual sales for a long time. The last time they'd sold more than Marvel was 1966.

So yeah, take your fairy tales with a grain of salt.

>>87397889
he didn't leave new universe unfinished. his basement flooded years ago and he lost the hard drive with his scripts on it along with who knows what else

>>87397832
He's not coming back.

>>87397899
Nah, try convincing Twomorrows instead. I'm sure they will apologize and hire you.

>>87397907
And as a result, Newuniversal was left unfinished.
shit sucks too, I really enjoyed what little was actually released

>>87397907
Drunkard excuses.

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>>87397640
Calling people out for phoneposting is a common 4chan thing. Are you new?

>>87394835
>muh stan lee is an asshole meme
>implying Kirby wasnt one too

>>87397949
>Calling people out for phoneposting is a common 4chan thing
Yeah, I remember when JPG Hunter began to use it as a funny counter-argument.

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>>87397734
Secret Wars 2? Beyonder learns to poop Secret Wars 2?
But yeah, if you mean the 2015 event, then yeah. Nice conlusion to the Marvel universe. The rest can burn.

>>87397952
Hi Millar!

>>87396698
>DC's movies being shit is actually saving the comic side from going full SYNERGY
Yet there's some sinergy as you can see from the future title Justice league vs Suicide squad

>>87398002
I've honestly never heard of this person and he's barely mentioned at all in the archives. Maybe you're just blowing your own limited experiences out of proportion.

>>87398045
I think it's probably a /tv/ thing and they're forgetting they're not on /tv/.

>>87398045
>Maybe you're just blowing your own limited experiences out of proportion.
That's why I told the smartphone hater, but...

Maybe I should ask /g/?

>>87392764
I think despite the Bendising and Millaring and OMDing, Marvel was in a pretty good place in the mid 2000s.

The thing I liked about Marvel at that time was the diversity - I mean diversity of styles. In the '90s and then in the early '00s, Marvel had kind of a rigid house style about how to write and draw comics (the style completely changed in the early '00s, but it was still enforced across the line). After Bill Jemas left, editors started letting different books/writers go their own way.

So you had some books that were very aggressively modernized (Bendis's Avengers) co-existing with nostalgic throwback books (the Thunderbolts relaunch) and books that were sort of in between (Young Avengers). Writers were allowed to use thought balloons again if they wanted to but they didn't have to. There were books that were very continuity-phobic existing side by side with deep-dive continuity comics like Slott's She-Hulk.

I don't know that it was Disney that put an end to the diversity of style or if it just happened because of editor turnover. But there isn't that sense at the moment of every possible style co-existing and something for everyone.

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>>87398371
Yeah.

Not to mention discontinuing stuff like Power Pack.

It was fun and even heartwarming.

And the manga-esque style of the Guri Hiru duo that did the reboot sold it to me.

>>87392764
it's sweet spot was 1977-1989
it's worse spell was 1995-2005

>>87398371
>>87398952
that and Marvel Adventures
it kills me some of the best cape stories were toss outs for kids

>>87395407

We could always talk about the good comics that Marvel is putting out like... um... uhhhh... well I think... shit.

>>87392764
It's like Marvel has always wanted to tell fans to fuck off and write the jew NWO propaganda /pol/ has nightmares about, but didn't because they would go bankrupt.
Now that the mouse will never let them go bankrupt they can be as degenerate as they want.

>>87399332
Vision?
oh wait

>>87399304
Marvel will never be decent if they shit on good ideas.

If they want to rival with other companies, then they should really go and bring back Marvel Adventures and the other series that hit the spot and have the writers who did them best do them again, as well as in the meanwhile look for fresh blood.

>>87392764
Moon Knight and Hawkeye are cooler now, and One More Day or clone sagas happened before Disney stepped in.

Good things come and go.

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This thread is obviously MINE

>>87396877
>I love the shit out of Disassembled and New Avengers - well they really didn't do shit in Bendis run but still has my favorite first arc.

you have bad taste

>>87399842

those books sold like shit and no one cared about them

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Never forget.

>>87396053
Okay but where was this 'UGH CONSOLE WARS SUCK' attitude when DC was getting shit on? I prefer Marvel but it's really transparent when you see posts like this when Marvel wasn't catching flack.

>>87397632
As far as rights go, Silver Surfer is directly tied to FF though. So, what does it meant that the FF are cancelled and SS continues?

>>87401869

cause there wasn't a strange undercurrent of racism and sexism and general bigotry.

>>87401869
>where was this 'UGH CONSOLE WARS SUCK' attitude when DC was getting shit on?
DC never engages in shitflinging, so maybe DC fans were too busy reading comics?

>>87395112
I wish Marvel WOULD crib more from current pop culture.

Imagine a Marvel team of Magical Girls, or a video game based hero.

Well, I mean, imagine them written by someone from about twenty or thirty years ago.

>>87401961
>Imagine a Marvel team of Magical Girls
B-but my Kamala... my Moon Girl...

>>87401906
>strange undercurrent of racism and sexism and general bigotry
That's known as "being on 4chan"

>>87392764
oldfags is one word, regardless of the level of irony

enjoy your stay

>>87402068

it's heightened more than usual, i blame the election.

For me, Marvel was best in the mid 70s to mid 80s. I started tuning out in the early 90s and stopped collecting entirely shortly thereafter.

I'd peek into the LCS every now and again to see what was going on, what caught my eye back on Marvel was the Marvel Knights stuff, Jessica Jones and the Bendis run on the Avengers. I enjoyed the Luke Cage led group. It was like "B-List Avengers, Assemble!"

Sadly, most of the new stuff leaves me "meh". (Except Vision. That was pretty good)

>>87392764
Marvel Comics, yes, but not by very much. Marvel Studios, no: they got better. Marvel Television is half-and-half: animation got worse, but the Netflix shows have made up for it.

Marvel has been shit for decades, They were lucky that the Iron Man movie was a success

>>87401886
Actually that's a good question since Slott's Silver Surfer's lowest sales are lower than Robinson's Fantastic Four's were at their lowest.

Robinson FF:

02/14 Fantastic Four v6 #1 - 65,775 ( 134.5%)
03/14 Fantastic Four v6 #2 - 37,569 ( -42.9%)
04/14 Fantastic Four v6 #3 - 34,930 ( -7.0%)
05/14 Fantastic Four v6 #4 - 33,263 ( -4.8%)
05/14 Fantastic Four v6 #5 - 33,336 ( 0.2%)
06/14 Fantastic Four v6 #6 - 33,177 ( -0.5%) O.S. Tie-In
07/14 Fantastic Four v6 #7 - 33,687 ( 1.5%) O.S. Tie-In
08/14 Fantastic Four v6 #8 - 30,674 ( -8.9%) O.S. Tie-In
08/14 Fantastic Four v6 #9 - 28,827 ( -6.0%)
09/14 Fantastic Four v6 #10 - 28,118 ( -2.5%)
10/14 Fantastic Four v6 #11 - 26,938 ( -4.2%)
10/14 Fantastic Four v6 #12 - 26,638 ( -1.1%)
11/14 Fantastic Four v6 #13 - 25,432 ( -4.5%)
12/14 Fantastic Four v6 #14 - 24,716 ( -2.8%)
01/15 Fantastic Four #642 – 30,118 ( +21,9%)
02/15 Fantastic Four #643 – 32,302 ( + 7.3%)
03/15 Fantastic Four #644 – 32,947 ( + 2.0%)
04/15 Fantastic Four #645 – 39.389 ( +19.6%)

03/14 Silver Surfer v7 #1 - 64,919
04/14 Silver Surfer v7 #2 - 39,132 (-39.7%)
06/14 Silver Surfer v7 #3 - 36,075 ( -7.8%)
07/14 Silver Surfer v7 #4 - 32,747 ( -9.2%)
08/14 Silver Surfer v7 #5 - 31,125 ( -5.0%)
10/14 Silver Surfer v7 #6 - 28,052 ( -9.9%)
11/14 Silver Surfer v7 #7 - 25,759 ( -8.2%)
01/15 Silver Surfer #8 - 23,420 (-9.1%)
02/15 Silver Surfer #9 - 21,716 (-7.3%)
03/15 Silver Surfer #10- 21,100 (-2.8%)
04/15 Silver Surfer #11- 20,776 (-1.5%)
06/15 Silver Surfer #12 - 20,704 (- 0.3%)
07/15 Silver Surfer #13 - 24,321 (+17.5%)
09/15 Silver Surfer #14 - 23,008 (- 5.4%)
11/15 Silver Surfer #15 - 21,343 (- 7.2%)

>>87405201
And the ANAD relaunch:

01/16 Silver Surfer #1 - 57,633
02/16 Silver Surfer #2 - 25,009 (-56.6%)
04/16 Silver Surfer #3 - 23,151 (- 7.4%)
05/16 Silver Surfer #4 - 21,063 (- 9.0%)
07/16 Silver Surfer #5 - 20,165 (- 4.3%)
08/16 Silver Surfer #6 - 18,991 (- 5.8%)