Titans #4 storytime

Why must Booth plague this book?

>>87265211

I've gotta say I never cared for speech bubbles on covers.

Thanks for story timing this though OP

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>>87265270
He is a wallyfag.

>>87265211
Thanks!

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>>87265305
You welcome anon.

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>>87265285
This

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the end thanks for reading

>>87265458
what the fuck is even happening here

>>87265299
I wasn't too sure about the Silver Flash costume but I am liking it more and more.

Booth's art has really grown on me.

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>>87265733
Same

>>87265544

Can't hate Abnett for making a story with the climax of Wally has to run the fastest ever.

>>87265544
Abnett must not have read too much Flash if he thinks this would take Wally going the fastest he's ever gone before.

Dude literally outran himself.

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the end thanks for reading

>>87265396
lol

>>87265921
Agreed

>>87265299
>He is a wallyfag.
So is Manapul. Why couldn't they get him to at least do the first arc?

>>87265362
watching Dick lead his team and then watching Damien lead his in Teen Titans is pretty fucking great. crossover when.

>>87265372

WHEN THERE'S TROUBLE

>>87267357

They were editorially banned from using him.

>>87266132
>FTOOMMCH
>YOUNG ONES REFERENCE

>>87265502
I have a feeling all Titans will anchor him back to earth just like how they did it in Flash book recently.

>>87265299
For a Wallyfag he sure didn't say shit about how terrible Black Wally was.

Dude probably just liked the JL cartoon.

>>87265515

>Holy exsanguination maestro!

Abnett you madman.

>>87265544
Cheers, loving it so far.

>>87265285
I agree with you.
it looks very tacky

>>87265682
i wish that new Wally had kept the silver costume too.
>>87267357
>>87268267
they were editorially banned from using Manapul??
source/reasoning--?

>>87268253
TEE-- THE TITANS!

>>87265473
Garth should be practically super-man tier Strength/durability wise, right?

>>87265544
>>87270485
>>87266414
>>87265921
>>87267232
can't wait to see based wally again, fuck

Wally outran himself, and instantaneous transportation...but what if he went faster than instantaneous transportation?
like
he was so fast he was in all three places at once?

I wish this book was a bi-monthly instead of a monthly.

>>87265396
Who thought those shades were a fucking good idea?

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>>87270962
Before Rebirth, Barry's lightning turned silver/white when he started using his speed to affect time. So, it's likely that Wally will actually make more use of that since his lightnng is aways silver now.

>>87265544
Next issue:

> it's a "wally goes full /a/ " episode

I love this motherfucker so much.

>>87271184
you gotta go fast anon

I love when American Capes go shounen.
>>87271126
huh, I wasn't aware of that.
I stopped reading The Flash after Manapul left, is it worth going back to read?

I remember Eobard showed up, but everything I heard about and sampled just wasn't that great

This entire storyline would have lasted 10 pages if they would have just called Mal Duncan. Why is this book so mediocre?

>>87271184
Hell yeah

>>87271208
>is it worth going back to read?

if you are curious to read about "the worst flash run in his history", then sure.

>>87271595
Worse than Bart as Flash.

>>87264012

>>87271248
What the fuck? Nobody cares about Mal

Why bring him, people barely care about Lilith and Bumblebee yet they're in it just so Donna isn't the only girl
Don't need a third character nobody cares about stinking up the book

>>87272560
Actually realized we already have the third character with Garth so actually we don't need a fourth character stinking up the book

>>87265458
>That pose
Is Dick Grayson the most sexualized DC man?

>>87265544
Can't have Wally West without him going full powerlevel bullshit. I fucking love that Abnett has remembered this.

>>87273279
I think.

Why do Dickfags hate this book so much? I love it.

>>87265372
Couldn't Wally just check them all out really quick?

>>87273279
Fan service is the only reason why anyone would like dick.

>>87266414
>Dude literally outran himself.
He could do all that stuff because Linda was anchoring him.

That's no longer the case anymore.

Hence Kadabra's evil plan.

>>87265458
human bodies don't bend like that, not even Dick's

>>87265458
booth please stop

>>87274331
This

>>87268927
He clearly just went along with corporate bullshit because he knew he'd get this chance later on down the road. You have to play nice sometimes.

>>87265458
lewd

Issue 7 is the non-Booth drawn one right?

>>87265733
I feel like he's better than usual on this book. It's still bad, but at least he's less bad than normal. It's readable.

>>87275654
The January one I think, not sure what number though

>>87275725
Nah, I thought this issue was pretty fucking awful actually artwise. This shit right here >>87265458 is inexcusable.

It's like he didn't put much effort into this one at all. I think his best drawn issue was #3 however. At least you can properly follow the fights in that one, unlike this issue.

>>87265267
>>87265280
Every open mouth that Booth draws looks like a half laugh, half surprise.

>>87275725
Cool

>>87265473
>Vegan Candy!
>It's KALE!

Kek.

File: TITANS_CVR_7.jpg (241KB, 791x1200px)

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TITANS #7
Written by DAN ABNETT
Art and cover by guest artist LEE WEEKS
Variant cover by NICK BRADSHAW
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
“Home Sweet Home”! A new threat brings Wally West face to face with the Man of Steel, and the two recognize each other as kindred souls from another world. Plus, the Titans set up their new Tower in New York City!
On sale JANUARY 11 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T

>>87271184
>>87271208

>Hal went EVEN FURTHER BEYOND in the last GLC
>Wally is about to go H-HE'S FAST! on kadabra's ass

DC is full of madmen

I love it

>>87277565
I'm looking forward to this.

>>87271870
i completely forgot about that, thanks for reminding me.

>>87265544
>>87271184

Just a few days ago an anon wouldn't believe me when I said Wally is straight up the most shounen superhero. He's fucking fueled by power of NAKAMA here.

>>87277851
Same here

>>87277888
No problem, thank god you forgot.

>>87266414
>>87270962
I've heard of the teleportation, but can I have context on outrunning himself?

https://youtu.be/qdFhDqgK81c

>>87265544

God damn Wally gets two of the best books this month to show off.

I wish Titans had an artist other than Booth, it'd easily be 10/10 if it had better art.

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>>87265322
>pick a world

Earth 616

>>87265544
Nigga is about to go Super Sayain

>>87266414
>Dude literally outran himself.
Is that like, not dying even if you were killed

>>87281491
https://youtu.be/w50zQ67D6wY

>>87268506

Yeah I'm expecting the Titans to do it too.

What if it's pre-Flashpoint Supes though?

>>87283531
This

>>87281073
not bad

>>87282134
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s2Ksz7rpck

>>87277565
>weeks
i came in my pants a lil bit

>>87279867
bump

>>87277565
By the way Booth is really butthurt on twitter about not drawing this issue

>>87290105
What is his opinon on the upcoming Judas Contract Rebirth?

>>87293713
Meant for >>87291433

>>87291433
What did he say?

>>87277565
Fuck yes, I was wondering when this would happen.

This is great actually, they both have a lot of history. I hope this brings them closer as friends.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53OyPYa7SEI

>>87290105
Thank you

>>87266664
I hope we get more chill moments in public like this, although saying their real names like it's nothing is pretty dumb.

>>87294757
>>87295308

>>87295792
Agreed

>>87293767
He said he lost the chance to draw that issue because DC shifted the deadlines. He wasn't really happy about it and he didn't even compliment Weeks about it.

The guy has a weird echo chamber at Twitter.

>>87273279
>Is Dick Grayson the most sexualized DC man?

Dick Grayson the most sexualized man in the Comicverse

>>87300284
Pretty much

>>87300108
What a baby lol. Lee Weeks' single issue will undoubtedly end up looking as the best single issue of this entire run, it's gonna be hard to go back to Booth after that one.

>>87294584

>>87270935
I think Atlantians are more Spider-man tier when it comes to strength. As for durability, bullets aren't fatal but they can still break the skin when they impact.

>>87301618
Did he also state the reason why Titans #3-4 covers originally solicited are not the final ones? Why he didn't release the textless but colored versions of #3-4 final covers?


He may be working on #8 now: https://mobile.twitter.com/Demonpuppy/status/791846408097714177?p=v

>>87301618

yeah I'm actually gonna buy the Weeks issue

>>87304710
Meant for >>87300108

>>87304733
Good man, it would be hilarious if that issue sold more than any of Booth's. :^)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUY4U570K08

>>87304734
No problem

>>87279867

It was in DC 1,000,000, the Justice League is transported to the distant future to take part in a massive celebration honoring them(It's really an elaborate cover for what's later revealed to be convoluted Grant Morrison Time-Loop reasons)

...anyway, Wally West is demonstrating his powers for the people of Planet Mercury(all the planets of the solar system had been terra-formed over the 60,000 or so years between the JL's time and the DC 1,000,000 era) and he ran around the planet so fast he lapped himself.

>>87312705

>>87310483
>...anyway, Wally West is demonstrating his powers for the people of Planet Mercury(all the planets of the solar system had been terra-formed over the 60,000 or so years between the JL's time and the DC 1,000,000 era) and he ran around the planet so fast he lapped himself.

fucking Morrison, he is the one turned Flash into overpowered garbage.

>>87315528
What's wrong with using the power of SPEED to it's fullest potential?

>>87315528
Nah Flash's powers are always pretty bullshit in Justice League stuff, and they're also always ridiculous in his own book. They just always scale to whatever threat he's facing.

>>87316102
Not since New 52. Barry is the resident jobber of the team.

>>87316441
Barry sucks yo lol.

This is also why I don't mind Wally being on Titans instead of Justice League, since he's not just a background character like Barry has been during Johns' run on Justice League. Unlike some people who were complaining about Wally being demoted.

>>87316479
I mean, as someone who likes Barry and Wally, I'm not sure if it really matters how cool Barry gets to be in Justice League. He shines in his own book, while Wally shines in Titans. A character doesn't need to be cool over muliple books to get 'justice'.

>>87315528
That wasn't written by Morrison.

>>87316479
>>87316441
>>87316519
Wally has spent such a long time showing off how skilled he is with the Speed Force and the crazy stuff he can do with it, Barry just needs to show what it means to be the one that actually GENERATES it, to pretty much BE the Speed Force. Barry should be the most powerful Speed Force Conduit since he's not actually a conduit, he's the source.

>>87316571
I dunno, after Venditti I think Barry just needs to have some fun stories. He doesn't need to prove hes the most biggest badass for the speed force, that doesn't really matter. If anything, I'd like less reliance on Speed Force for a while.

>>87316652
> I'd like less reliance on Speed Force for a while.
??? But isn't the Speed Force basically what his power is? I don't see how it can be played down when it's pretty much what makes the Flash THE FLASH.

>>87316753
His power is being fast. Speed Force stories are overly focused and narrow on specific aspects of his powers, and there's only so many times you can do that befre I want to see Flash go up against a super-intelligent gorilla or a mirror man or living shadows. Speed Force dominates Flash stories worse than the Rainbow Corps dominate Green Lantern ones.

>>87316873
Speed Force = "being fast". The Speed Force is simply what gives the Flash his speed and such. So it pretty much is his power. The Flash's power is the Speed Force, which means his power is Speed.

I just think the fact Barry generates it should be emphasized to some extent while he's fighting mirror men and living shadows and stuff.

>>87316479
This

>>87316993
> I just think the fact Barry generates it should be emphasized

No it shouldn't what the fuck. It's a retcon that completely diminished any other speedster not Barry. They already retconned it away anyway.

Barry is more connected to time continuum than actual speed, you can give his edge over Wally in that area. Overall both speedsters should be on equal grounds.

>>87317397
>They already retconned it away anyway.
No they didn't, it was referenced recently in the Justice League comics.

>Barry is more connected to time continuum than actual speed, you can give his edge over Wally in that area.

Wally's lightning is now the same color as Barry's when he started using the time continuum stuff. The Speed Force itself is already connected to Time deeply anyway. When Barry runs, he generates more Speed Force, and moves time forward as well.

What puts Barry and Wally on equal grounds, in my opinion, is that Wally is highly skilled and knowledgable on making full use of what Barry created and constantly generates. Like, Barry IS the Speed Force, Wally is a MASTER of the Speed Force and is pretty much a part of it.

>>87317788
He CREATED SF, which is not the same as generating it.
> God created universe and then let it be
> God is creating life every second

It has always been implied Barry created it but generating part was absolute bullshit done by Johns and took a huge dump on every other speedster.

Barry moves time forward connected to his power, Wally hates anything related to time travel. He is more dimension hopper.

Really, anyone who wants that bullshit back hates Flash family, it doesn't make Wally and Barry equals at all. Barry can kill Wally's connection to SF at will, he's basically as powerful as Barry wants him to be.

>>87317930
>God is creating life every second
But... that's true though...

Anyways. Barry generating Speed Force played a part in a recent Justice League story arc so that's still a thing. I honestly don't see the problem. I mean, recently, Hal Jordan pretty much became the living embodiment of willpower and can do things other Green Lanterns can't, does that undermine literally every other Green Lantern in the Corps? I don't think so.

>>87316571
I thought Barry generating the Speed Force was retconed with the New 52.

>>87318029
>But... that's true though...
> what is deism

He never stated he is generating it, he said he created it.

> does that undermine literally every other Green Lantern in the Corps? I don't think so

Yes, it does. That's why Kylefags and Johnfags are such pain in the ass.

Thing is GL Rebirth worked in a way Flash Rebirth didn't. When you say Barry is generating SF, you are turning him into a Gary Stu worse than Rey was in Star Wars. And that in itself cuts the legs of characters like Wally and Bart. It also doesn't help that new Wally also exists and there should be realistic bars for him. That retcon kills any stakes in Flash.

>>87318499
The thing is, Barry Allen and Hal Jordan are supposed to be like the core definitive central "Flash" and "Green Lantern". They're the ones that are at the center of and represent the Flash Family and the Green Lantern Corp, like Superman and Batman. The only complication with this idea is the "Legacy" hero thing, and them dying and others taking their place for so many years that the title of "Flash" and "Green Lantern" starts floating around from person and person, and there isn't much separating each individual from eachother other than personality and stuff. Putting Barry and Hal back at the forfront means they also need to be established as the definitive Flash and Green Lantern in every area and not just having the title "now".

Which is why even though Wally is back and he's also called "The Flash" and is supposedly on equal level with Barry, at the same time he's not on equal grounds at all. Because Barry is the one that is the star of The Flash comics, Barry is the one that stands alongside Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman, Barry is the one that is the star of the Flash TV show and Movie, Barry is the one that CREATED the Speed Force, Barry is the one that mentored Wally in the first place, etc.

>>87318702
>The thing is, Barry Allen and Hal Jordan are supposed to be like the core definitive central "Flash" and "Green Lantern".

That's why it's so stupid you dumbfuck. No one actually liked Barry more so they pulled out a poorly written retcon to justify calling him the best most important Flash ever despite everyone like and knowing Wally more.

He's not the definitive anything. If he was definitive they wouldn't have to attach a major aspect of Wally's character (The Speed Force) to his core character to trump him up as the bestest ever. When it's so obviously Wally that the show, the movie, and the comics all slowly try to make Barry more like Wally so people will like him more.

>>87318824
I think the fact Wally started as Kid Flash to Barry's Flash is a main reason Barry is the definitive Flash and not Wally. 'Cause in my opinion, Wally being the definitive Flash is like Nightwing, Red Hood, Red Robin, or Damian becoming the definitive Batman.

>>87318702
But Barry isn't. He simply isn't. Wally became face of Flash for a period too and he has all the rights to call himself by name. You probably want Wally to get a new name too.

Honestly if Wally didn't have all the best Flash stories for himself, I don't think we would have this discussion at all. (Unlik GL where Hal has the best stories) Best Flash story ever written is about how Wally owns the name of Flash as much as Barry. When your hero is defined by that, it's hard to decompose it.

>>87318996
> I think the fact Wally started as Kid Flash to Barry's Flash is a main reason Barry is the definitive Flash and not Wally.

shut up didio

>>87318996
Except none of those people are Batman?

Wally was THE Flash. The point where he changed the scope of everything it means to be The Flash more than Barry ever did. Barry was a slightly up to date version of Jay Garrick in a better costume.

Definitive doesn't mean "came first" or "mentored the other." Einstein's teachers are more definitive physicists than him. Wally is so damned definitive that Barry could only ape his shit in hopes of stealing his popularity, and when it didn't work and fans were bitching DC's only recourse in their quest to force brand synergy was to literally erase Wally from existence for 6 years. Because he was too popular.

Yet when Barry took over for Wally there wasn't even a tenth the groundswell of disgust and distaste. How is the less important, less impactful, less beloved character the definitive one? Barry's main contribution to Flash lore is the fucking suit.

>>87319091
I just think the only thing that gets in the way of Wally being the definitive Flash is his origin. He started as Kid Flash, Barry's sidekick, and got his powers by replicating Barry's accident, and became THE Flash in the first place because Barry 'died'. Yes, what it means to be the Flash was redefined and stuff when Wally was the Flash, and yeah the most popular and best Flash stories are probably his, but his origin ALONE puts Barry a levelabove him, even if it's by a small margin.

>>87319246
So Wally's problem is he's a legacy character who ripped off someone else's origin?

Because Barry is a fucking legacy character who ripped off Jay's origin? Science accident grants super speed was the same for both of them and Barry explicitly named himself after Jay, just as Wally did Barry.

Wally epitomizing legacy is what makes him more definitive a Flash, dude. It's a fucking superhero line mired in legacy from the day Barry put on the bright red costume.

You apparently think origin is LITERALLY THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS. If that's the case then Jay is the definitive Flash you fucking troll.

>>87319246
why does barryfags care so much about origin? it's only a fucking origin dude.

with barry the flash is this:
> MUH MUM
> generic villain
> random girl of the week to ensure he doesn't end up with iris

with wally it is:
> a man in his early adulthood trying to live up to a legend's legacy
> bunch of ridiculous concepts only works in comics
> lots of cool side characters
> girl of the week because wally is a slut

there is a reason why wb constantly casts a baby faced manchildren for barry instead of someone who is actually in his late 20s

>>87319246
Barry's origin is different from Wally's -- they retconned both. Barry's origin is his future self with super powers came back in time and became the lightning bolt that struck him.

Wally's origin is that the combined want for him to be like the Flash from Barry and Wally caused the Speed Force to reach out to him.

So no, they don't have the same origin.

>>87319091
>Barry was a slightly up to date version of Jay Garrick in a better costume.
Oh come on, I like Wally too but let's give credit where it's due, Flash and Green Lantern were far more improved by their new renditions than that.

>>87319681
I think the main difference is they stopped having text only panels and started shoving all the text into speech bubbles instead of narration. That classic Silver Age writing.

But Barry as a character, purely himself, didn't change much about The Flash. I suppose he was more science focused than Jay...mostly because he was teaching science lessons to Wally. Go figure.

It's weird to me that someone calls Barry more definitive or important in Flash lore than Wally. Barry gained Wally like 5 issues into his run and Wally was there basically the whole time since. Wally had 20 years without Barry. If anything, Barry is more reliant on Wally than Wally ever was on Barry.

>>87319748
I think that Barry and Wally both define the Flash, and honestly you can't call the franchise complete without both of them (whether Barry is dead or not, his presence is still absolutely vital.) Barry shifted the Flash from a far more grounded, almost jock-ish perspective with Jay Allen and turned it into an absurdist, lighthearted story about a dorky nerd with super-speed trying to live in a world of jetpack gorillas. Barry Allen's Flash is only possibly surpassed by Superman in terms of quality during the Silver Age, and I hate that so many fans throw him under the bus and call him an irrelevant nobody because the situation with Wally was unfortunate.

>>87319464
By origin, I'm mostly referring to the accident that gave them their powers and how they started out as heroes and stuff. Barry's origin was, and still is, completely different from Jay's and stuff, and he as the Flash was very separate from Jay as the Flash. But with Wally, everything about his origin (in terms of the accident moving forward), is pretty much very derivative of Barry. He was shown where and how Barry got his powers, and then out of the blue lightning strikes twice, and Wally undergoes the same accident ( I guess, with the added undertone of the speed force calling out to him and stuff), then he becomes Kid Flash, the Flash's sidekick and apprentice and stuff. And when Barry died in a crisis, the Flash mantle was left for Wally to pick up, as Barry's apprentice and 'successor'. With that in mind, Wally's entire "run" as the Flash is put in a whole new light, and it becomes clear that Barry was still a level above Wally even though Barry wasn't even around anymore.

>>87319464
Damn I got cancer reading your post. Feel free to call me a barryfag and pretend like it's true.

>>87319091
Honestly, had things gone differently, if Barry didn't die in a crisis, then it would have been Barry to completely change of scope of what it means to be the Flash instead of Wally.

>>87319897
Barry Allen was not a dorky nerd. That's a retrospective spin. It wasn't dorky or nerdy to like comics as an adult back then. The dude was introduced as an alpha male with a beautiful woman doting on him. He was immediately amazing and successful and had a cooler job than Jay ever did (lab tech vs forensic scientist).

Barry was meant to be cool and interesting to kids. They didn't make him some reclusive nerd. They made him science-y Superman.

>>87319905
Yes, by origin you mean something from the 1960s. Not the modern changes that have been there since COIE (Secret Origins) and Born to Run, over 20 years ago.

Their origins were originally the same but both changed because people wanted to make them less random and more destined. They don't have the same origin and haven't since probably before you were fucking born.

Barry was separate from Jay for all of 2 years, dude. And every fan knew he was derivative of Jay, that he was only The Flash because of Jay. Fuck, he PICKED UP JAY'S NUMBERING. If that isn't walking in Jay's light then nothing is.

The Speed Force didn't fucking exist in the 60s.

You're a goddamn idiot who doesn't have any idea what he's talking about. You sound like someone who started with Flash Rebirth and thought it was the greatest thing ever, but when your view was challenged because it was actually shit you backpedal and try to justify everything with wiki knowledge. Which is why you think Wally has the same origin as Barry, and why you think there were Speed Force undertones in the 60s, and why you don't fucking understand a thing.

Barry can't be the definitive Flash because he's still walking in Wally's shadow. Has been ever since he came back, as ironic as it is. But instead of turning that into a story -- into a plot point to develop the character, they ignored that Wally ever existed and shoved in hamfisted writing about as nuanced as people arguing about power levels on forums to make Barry seem bigger.

>With that in mind, Wally's entire "run" as the Flash is put in a whole new light, and it becomes clear that Barry was still a level above Wally even though Barry wasn't even around anymore.

Go fuck yourself you impudent shit. The greatest Flash story ever is about the exact opposite of this.

>>87320025
The entire "dorky scientist" angle is Mark Waid's spin in 90s. I prefer that much more than a clean cut guy with no personality. Sure Barry doesn't have a strong personality, not even in the TV show at the moment but I'm going to take socially awkward hero to crewcut cop.

>>87320018
If Barry managed to get a story that's on par with Return of Barry Allen, Terminal Velocity or Blitz in modern times, Wally wouldn't even matter anymore. But he hasn't and he probably never will so Wally will always be breathing on Barry's neck as a better character.

>>87320018
Mark Waid never writers the story he did with Barry that he did Wally, so no, he wouldn't. Waid is very specific about how Wally's unique character in situation brought out certain writing tendencies in him.

Waid also wrote Barry Allen and did it far differently. In the world where Barry never dies and Wally never becomes The Flash we never get a Waid or Johns Flash run that good and the Speed Force is never a thing.

Yet it's so important now that Barry latched onto it like a remora, sucking up its importance for himself. The Speed Force is more important than Barry when it comes to Flash lore and The Speed Force is derivative of Wally's run. Wally's run is so good, so important, so seminal to The Flash that they can't separate from it. When Barry died they went in a completely new direction with Wally BECAUSE Barry wasn't that seminal. They killed Barry because he was waning in popularity -- too perfect, too modest, too boy scouty. The only thing they could do in his final years was throw shock value comics at him.

Yet when Barry comes back and they get rid of Wally, all the fucking do is ride Wally's jock. That tells you more than anything who the definitive Flash is. Not some dumb shit like outdated origins.

>>87320188
So you think Barry's definitive take was set in stone by the writer of Wally's best run and the man who thinks Wally is more The Flash than anyone.

Ok.

Barry's been back for years, been written by both Waid and Johns, and still doesn't have a run on par with Wally's work. Maybe it's something about Wally's character that makes those stories flow to the page, don't you think?

Barry doesn't have the same problems Wally does and thus he can't get the same stories. You obviously can't do Blitz or The Return of Barry Allen with Barry as the main character. Terminal Velocity I'll grant you, but that's still Wally's run and Barry's still huffing the fumes from that story to this day.

>>87320188
The best Flash comic made since Barry returned was literally Wally coming back in DC Universe Rebirth. Written by Johns, the guy who took two cracks at Barry since he came back and both receiving generally "alright" ratings.

Seriously. Wally is so much more conducive to the best Flash stories that even with a 6 year head start he's already ahead of Barry in classics since Barry came back. That's very telling.

>>87320301
>Barry's been back for years, been written by both Waid and Johns, and still doesn't have a run on par with Wally's work. Maybe it's something about Wally's character that makes those stories flow to the page, don't you think?
DC's editorial has been completely shit for those same years, don't put this entirely on the character. Johns' first run was spinning wheels as he didn't want Barry back and didn't know what to do with him (and then it got cut off at the heels by Flashpoint getting taken over for the New 52), Manapul was talented but couldn't carry the follow through, and Venditti is just a trash writer all around. Barry's been screwed over by DC almost as much as Wally has since he's been back.

>>87320333
Rebirth is okay, but let's not pretend also that it's a masterpiece just because Wally came back with it. Now I'm really starting to see an emotional bias.

Wally West is the definitive Flash. Barry Allen is just an origin story.

The same way Jack Knight is the definitive Starman, despite the fact that he needs Ted to exist. It doesn't make him any less the most important. Ted's entire life and history is his origin story, like Barry to Wally.

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>>87271105
Ranch addicts don't make good decisions

>>87320605
Wally's best writers are Waid and Johns, both who have taken several shots at writing Barry and never recreating anything close to the same magic.

Johns hadn't written Wally for five fucking years and his single fucking issue of writing not only dwarfs anything Barry's ever been in since, but anything Barry's ever done in all time.

Barry is important to Wally. That was painfully clear in DCU Rebirth. But just because Barry is important to Wally, and Wally is who he is because of Barry, doesn't make Wally lesser in Flash lore than Barry. Wally carries everything Barry is and grows from it, grows more than Barry ever has, because he has room for growth. He was the evolutionary point of The Flash.

Saying Barry's been screwed over more than Wally is the most heinous, ridiculous horseshit I've ever seen. THEY LITERALLY DELETED WALLY. He didn't even get a chance. And you're saying Barry had it worse.

You're a goddamn fucking idiot and there's nothing more to talk about. Go watch the shitty TV show and stop talking like you know comics you fucking casual.

>>87320605
Everyone and their mother talks about how great and emotional DCU Rebirth was. It's clearly a very great comic. That your argument is that DCU Rebirth was merely okay is pathetic, dude.

DCU Rebirth is better than any Barry Allen comic ever printed.

>>87320884
>Johns hadn't written Wally for five fucking years and his single fucking issue of writing not only dwarfs anything Barry's ever been in since, but anything Barry's ever done in all time.
Christ Anon, put your dick away, Rebirth wasn't that good.

>>87320906
People have been talking about how amazing and great and emotional decent comics that give payoffs people were asking for are since comics began. You can see the same thing with Tomasi's latest Superman run, or even Jurgens' run which is getting praise despite being the most boring maudlin bullshit. To call it better than any Flash comic ever printed that didn't have Wally does nothing but show you as either extremely emotionally biased, or a strangely well constructed and almost reasonable troll.

>>87320605
Barry Allen came back to Geoff Johns writing and Manapul art you duplicitous fuck. That's a better team than Wally has ever gotten unless you're a super huge Wieringo fag.

>>87320605
>Johns' first run was spinning wheels as he didn't want Barry back

Well that's a lie. Johns obviously wanted Barry back.

His ideal was Barry is back at the head of the family, but the rest of the family is relevant. He wanted Barry back just as much as he wanted Hal back. "The Flash" is his favorite character, not Wally. He says that because he doesn't want to choose between Jay Wally and Barry.

>>87320996
Tomasi's Superman isn't getting nearly the reception DCU Rebirth got, dude. People were talking about how they were fucking crying during the book. That's you're trying to diminish that to support some really weak "Barry is actually the best Flash" point is very sad.

>>87320605
Barry owes his return to that shitty editorial. He literally exists because editorial was shit.
> Johns' first run was spinning wheels as he didn't want Barry back and didn't know what to do with him
Yet he couldn't stop shitting on other characters. He shat all over the franchise with one touch.
>Manapul was talented but couldn't carry the follow through
more than half of his ideas (including introducing Wally) were shut down by Didio being a faggot.
> Barry's been screwed over by DC almost as much as Wally has since he's been back.
He never turned into black.

>Rebirth is okay, but let's not pretend also that it's a masterpiece just because Wally came back with it. Now I'm really starting to see an emotional bias.

It's the most emotionally powerful and awe-inducing thing that's happened to Flash since forever. It's not a full story sure, but give me a Barry moment in New 52 that's equally powerful as that hug

>>87320996
Show a single Barry centric comic better than DCU Rebirth and I'll show a liar.

I'm expecting you to say Flashpoint just to prove how goddamn stupid and new you are.

>>87320605
>Barry's been screwed over by DC almost as much as Wally has since he's been back.

HOLY SHIT

I'm sorry anon, did Barry get turned into a street hoodlum nigger? No? Did Barry's return get entirely entrusted into Venditti's hands? Oh, no?

You are so fucking full of revisionist bullshit it's amazing.

>>87321004
Manapul's art during Geoff Johns' run was serviceable but restricted, with him not really opening up until his own run. Geoff Johns is a very good writer when he has a clear direction, but he's by no means a guarantee for quality and he clearly didn't want Barry solo back. The run was clearly just stalling, with uncreative stories and failed attempts to bring the family back because editorial was playing things too safe.

>>87321078
My favorite is probably the one where Barry Allen writes himself back into existence by publishing comics about himself after a man uses science to make him slowly erase from reality.

Also honestly I like the new Kid Flash. Wally can't go back to being that, he deserves better, but Kid Flash is still an important part of comics and when he's not written by Venditti the new Wally's pretty good.

>>87321057
Barry was part of that hug. The moment was only so good because of how great a mentor and how great Barry is to Wally.

>>87321055
I'm not even arguing Barry is the best Flash ever you dumbass, I was arguing that to throw Barry under the bus and say he always sucked and never contributed anything to the Flash is bullshit. Barry and Wally both define the Flash, and you can't call the name complete without invoking both of them.

I'm not going to argue that Rebirth was bad, it clearly means a lot to you and honestly it was a fairly nice scene, but it was not the end-all be-all of comics any more than Jurgens having Clark Kent write that we have the real Superman back was the best issue of 2016.

>>87321168
>and he clearly didn't want Barry solo bac

Why do you keep purporting this lie? There has never been a single thing that justifies it, and many things that don't. Particularly Johns talking about how much he loves Barry, wanted to bring him back, and all the plans he wanted to do with Barry at the forefront.

Johns literally wrote a story about how Barry being dead was cancerous and stagnating to the entire core of the Flash family and his return revitalizes everything. He wrote the ultimate Barry dicksucking comic book. He says Barry is his favorite character. Why do you think he didn't want to bring Barry back?

They're not talking about how New Wally is after real Wally came back. Before DCU Rebirth black Wally was intended to be Wally West. They fucked it up so bad that fans got so fucking angry and pissed off that DC couldn't handle it and went full retcon.

You don't call him Wallace R. West, son of Rudy West, without intending him to be the actual Wally West. The point was they fucked up harder with Wally in Venditti's own run than Venditti did with Barry. Wally was the worst part of that comic. And you're telling me Barry had it worst? Worse than not existing then being the worst character in comics this side of Bar Tor?

>>87321235
No, you're the fag who came into a Wally West thread to tell people Barry is the definitive Flash by reciting origins that haven't been relevant since 1985.

You asked for this fight you dumbshit. You're so clearly wrong and so clearly a casual newfag who started with New 52 shit and went back to weakly justify his shit opinions by pretending Silver Age comics were just the greatest.

I honestly just think that "The Flash" as an identity should only refer to one person. Having multiple people around with the name makes things complicated. I mean, in these "Titans" comics, Wally said to Linda that he is " 'a' Flash ?", so in all honesty, Wally should just get a new name and "The Flash" should refer mainly to Barry. But the only thing preventing that from happening is Wally's history with the title before The Flash: Rebirth and Flashpoint happened.

>>87321235
>I'm not going to argue that Rebirth was bad, it clearly means a lot to you and honestly it was a fairly nice scene,

Stop making this about him, personally. The point was it was universally acclaimed as a great comic and you're the only one calling it "alright" and "okay." You're the one trying to downgrade it, we're the ones talking about how the world thought it was amazing.

That you think mediocre silver age silly books match up to it just shows how biased you are. Yet you're trying to heap "ur just bias" shit arguments onto other people when they just point out how clueless you are.

>>87321335
You're a stupid fucking idiot. Go read The Return of Barry Allen and don't ever post in a Flash thread again before you do.

Wally West is The Flash. You're not taking that away from him you fucking Barryfag.

And yes, Wally gets to keep his name based on his awesome history that even Barry Allen is still ripping off to this day. his awesome history that is currently core to his character and who he is right now.

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>>87321175
I'm not saying otherwise. All best Wally stories emphasize on Barry's influence on him.

I'm going to sound different than most of Wallyfags here but I think Barry is equally amazing as a character. He's not main-title worthy by no means (his stories are too formulaic for me) but he works the best as Obi Wan to Wally, Wally's books wouldn't be good if Barry didn't come before him.

I think DC should definitely push them as equals without "Barry is generating SF and everyone else is his bitch". I'm enjoying the fuck out of their interactions so far

The best (and only great?) modern Barry Allen story is Wednesday Comics BTW

>>87321257
>Why do you keep purporting this lie?
Because the second he got the title, all he did was talk about how he was bringing Wally back, that there'd be a Flash family title, that Wally would share the book with Barry? And the book was clearly going nowhere otherwise right up until the last couple of issues which got screwed by Flashpoint.

>>87321300
Didn't talk about the origins nor did I say Barry is the only definitive Flash, dipshit, that's not the same Anon. Lots of Silver Age is trash, but Flash and Superman comics of that era are the shit.

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>>87321389
This is legitimately the first Barry moment I fucking enjoyed in his book.

Sums up his character perfectly instead of being a Wally-lite. I hope Williamson gives more moments like these.

>>87321382
>Go read The Return of Barry Allen
I've read it several times. It's a good story. Stop thinking that anybody who thinks Barry deserves ANY credit as the Flash must hate Wally and knows nothing about your precious franchise.

>>87321387
Terminal Velocity has nothing to do with Barry.

The Return of Barry Allen is a story about Wally breaking away from Barry's shadow.

Dead Heat has nothing to do with Barry.

Blitz Barry only matters tangentially and the main conflict is Wally's morals in conflict with his friend's interest.

The Human Race and Emergency Stop have absolutely nothing to do with Barry.

Blah blah you're an idiot. Part of Wally's core character is what Barry means to him, but he's far more nuanced than that. The fact that Barry Allen could never have an all time great story like The Return of Barry Allen is why he's not definitive. He doesn't epitomize legacy like Wally does, despite being a legacy character, despite legacy being a core concept of The Flash.

The argument is about who's the definitive Flash. Wally has defined The Flash more than Barry ever did, despite Wally being derivative of Barry. A derivative can still be a greater influence.

>>87321344
Like I said Anon, put your dick away.

>>87321461
>Because the second he got the title, all he did was talk about how he was bringing Wally back, that there'd be a Flash family title, that Wally would share the book with Barry? And the book was clearly going nowhere otherwise right up until the last couple of issues which got screwed by Flashpoint.

You are so lacking in context it's amazing. Johns was answering fan questions about what happened to Wally West and what they were going to do with Wally West now that Barry is back. Everyone knew bringing back Barry could only shove Wally onto the backburner (and they were right). Johns had plans for Wally, told the fans. Fans didn't ask questions about Barry because no one was interested in his return.

Saying Johns didn't want Barry to come back is asinine. The very plans you're talking about were about how Barry was going to be the central figure of The Flash like Hal, and Wally was going to be the Kyle. That tells you more than anything you ever need to know considering how he treated Kyle compared to Hal.

Pretending to be a different person, neat.

>>87321562
Like I said anon, you're a stupid fucking idiot who has no idea what he's talking about.

You're a casual barryfag who started with the New 52. It's okay to admit it. Just don't act like you know shit about shit.

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>>87321511
Wallyfags get triggered when you compare his relationship with Barry to Bruce & Dick's. Dick will never be THE Batman and he contributed to DCU more as Robin than he was anything else.

But Wally's entire character is about surpassing Barry's benchmarks and he's respected as much as Barry in overall DCU.

Wally, Barry and Jay are the main pillars of Flash franchise. Flash works the best when they emphasize on their relationship. Rest is only characterfagging.

>>87321631
I started around Infinite Crisis and worked my way back. Barry wasn't my first Flash anymore than yours, I just didn't latch onto Wally so hard my dick nearly fell off inside him.

>>87321493

I'm actually really liking Williamson's run. I feel like he's already making Barry his own guy instead of a blank slate or Wally-lite.

need some damn flash facts tho

>>87321714
Uh huh.

Look man, you've gotten so much stuff wrong and your opinion is the exact same as every New 52 fag who thinks Barry is the only real Flash. If you just accidentally fell into that exact same opinion because you thought Waid and Johns' work with Wally wasn't that great then whatever. Your worst crime is shit taste.

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IN AN ALTERNATE TIMELINE:

Sonic the Hedgehog "died" in a crisis around 1997 or so, and Tails became the face of the Sonic franchise, completely redefining the franchise and with games that keep getting better and better beyond the original Genesis trilogy, until Sonic miraculously returns in 2011 or so and becomes the face of the franchise again. But most fans have already latched onto Tails as the star and believe that Tails is now the definitive 'Sonic' and Sonic himself has been in Tails' shadow since he returned

>>87321673

>Flash works the best when they emphasize on their relationship

Speaking of Willamson's run I feel like he gets this and is working on putting it back together + expanding it.

>>87321774

Mario and Luigi would be a better example senpai. Or Donkey Kong's family tree.

>>87321741
I like Barry's characterization in Williamson's run, but shit he needs some better plots. He gets the characters right but I absolutely do not care about the situations and setpieces they get into.

>>87321760
Or maybe it's possibly I could like Wally AND Barry's runs, and think that just because Barry's stuff after he came back has been milquetoast (or in Venditti's case downright terrible) doesn't mean I think the character never had anything to offer?

>>87321514
look i'm a wallyfag but wally's love for barry is a huge cloud in all those stories. surpassing his benchmarks, making him proud, questioning his morals etc. there is always barry's ghost in those stories and for the better: you feel emotionally invested in wally's journey

barry obviously can't capture the same emotional depth with his mother, and he never will.

i agree that wally as flash wouldn't work AS good if barry was never a flash before him

>>87321794
Sonic and Tails are speedsters, and have a mentor and apprentice dynamic, like Barry Allen and Wally West.

>>87321839
That's not the point. I've met and talked to people who read older Barry and Wally stories and still like Barry (again, just shit taste, that's fine). But he messed up so much shit about Wally and Barry that he just doesn't know what he's talking about. He regurgitated the exact same shit every casual New 52 fag says.

It'd be a mighty strange coincidence that he parroted a large and obvious group and is actually totally someone who knows what he's talking about despite getting everything wrong.

>>87321853
So basically, Wally only worked so well as the Flash and had such good stories because of the fact that he was pretty much Kid Flash taking up the mantle of THE Flash after The Flash is gone? From my perspective, it still sounds like Barry = THE Flash and Wally's run was so successful only because he was THE Flash's apprentice and the one that had to take on the role after THE Flash was gone, which lead to those stories where Wally 'surpasses' Barry and all that stuff.

>>87320025
>The dude was introduced as an alpha male with a beautiful woman doting on him.
The hell are you talking about? Iris trash talked Barry all the time in the old comics. She was constantly comparing him to the Flash the same way Lois would with Clark Kent and Superman, with the major difference being that Barry really was a slow fuddy-duddy behind the mask and not just putting on an act.

>>87321839
>Or maybe it's possibly I could like Wally AND Barry's runs, and think that just because Barry's stuff after he came back has been milquetoast (or in Venditti's case downright terrible) doesn't mean I think the character never had anything to offer?

The dude said Barry got it worse than Wally in the New 52. He's full of horseshit.

>>87321985
Why do you think a character epitomizing legacy makes them less definitive in a franchise mired in legacy?

Wally being a legacy character, and so profoundly ascending as the greatest legacy character ever, is even more the reason why he's the definitive Flash. Barry doesn't even come close.

Stop typing "THE Flash." you're a shit troll or an idiot, either way it's stupid.

>>87322007
Iris stuck with Barry through thick and thin because of what a great man he was (and also how handsome). Clark and Lois never got together back in the day, Lois was only interested in Superman. Iris was always interested in Barry.

>>87322017
I said they both got shit on, and I stand by it. Barry has had nothing but bad runs since he came back, and I don't count the new Kid Flash as the biggest crime to ever exist.

>>87321839

I'd rather a handle on the characters and work on plotting as it goes than vice versa

>>87322053
Dick Grayson's better at legacy.

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>>87321985
Dude you are a hopeless characterfag. Which part of Jay, Barry and Wally are all definitive on their own you don't get?

Jay started this
Barry gave it an origin and a suit
Wally defined his personality, his main gimmick beyond MUH MUM, introduced Speed Force and the idea of "Flash family"

Flash will never be a one name guy.

>>87322144
and yet he was just a place holder batman

>>87322137
I mean, honestly me too, but I'm not gonna pay for a book if it doesn't have both.

>>87322168
Barry gave a ton more than the suit. Wally was huge in that he established Flash as a family instead of just Barry and maybe Jay depending on how you look at it, but you shouldn't need to undersell the other parts of your waifu's history so hard.

>>87322144
Not even close to being close. Dick Grayson's entire thing is trying to escape the legacy and be his own man. You can like Dick's character more but he's not near the legacy standout that Wally is.

>>87322212
So the thing is, Barry also defined a theme for The Flash being science-y stuff. The problem with that argument is Wally was just as important to that part of The Flash, so that's not unique to Barry.

What's unique to Barry is the suit and the origin, which then...got retconned to be the thing that Wally defined (The Speed Force) so even that's up in the air. Though they again retconned it so that Wally's thing became Barry's thing.

Everything went to shit when Barry came back. Really, everything went to shit when they tried to kill Wally the first time.

>>87322007
Iris and Barry were MARRIED for a good part of Barry's initial career as Flash.

>>87322212
Alright, fine. Barry also introduced Rogues concept. But ironically TV show loooooves using Wally's rogues instead.

>>87266116
Dolphins are assholes

>>87322351

I lost it when they actually used Scudder

>>87322351
The Rogues count as their own characters, not Barry's. I don't consider Wally more important because Zoom showed up in his run. I don't consider Jay less important because all they did was rip his villains off power wise and not namewise (Mirror Master is bargain bin Shade, Piper is Fiddler etc etc).

>>87322351
Wally's rogues are honestly kind of shit and easily the weakest part of his runs (Zoom aside, although even he loses points for being an evil speedster in a goddamn sea of them.) But they don't need quite as flashy special effects, so it's understandable the show uses them.

>>87322168
The thing I don't like about Legacy heroes is the name/identity being passed down and stuff, which means I can't just say "The Flash" the same way I say "Batman" or "Superman". I honestly don't like having to say their real name.

>>87265267
My man-pussy gets wet for Dan Abnett

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>>87321794
>Speaking of Willamson's run I feel like he gets this and is working on putting it back together + expanding it.

I FUCKING WISH Wally was a second lead in the book. His interactions with Barry is amazing and the book would be elevated if they worked together more.

They should give it a Hawkeye approach. Book is already bimonthly, giving one issue to Barry and other to Wally shouldn't be so bad.

>>87322451
Ok, then what do you suggest Barry change his name to?

>>87322433
Savitar was great. He only had one arc but it was one of the better arcs imo. The first real Speed Forcey villain. Everyone's been ripping him off since he was so good.

>>87322500

Wally and Titan's have gotta figure out all the Rebirth shit first

>>87322500
I'd rather focus on Barry with Kid Wally for now, their interactions are also really strong. I'd love to have Wally as a recurring guest star, though, his talk with his cousin was a highlight of the issue.

Wally's had a really long, really good run. And while it's true he wasn't always in the best of times after, I still feel confident that he'll be an important, fondly considered part of comics as time goes on even if he doesn't have the focus right now. He's got all the pieces he needs now, but Flash as a franchise really needs to build itself up more before he can be integrated again so forcefully. Luckily, it seems like they're finally close to that point again if Williamson can just think up some interesting stories to show off why the hero is so exciting.

>>87322576
They're not going to consistently put two Flashes and two Wallys in the Flash book.

Wally will be quarantined to Titans until the event proper finishes and after that he'll probably just stay in Titans. He's a B-teamer forever. Barry's never going away so Wally will permanently be a B-teamer since Barry's definitely not going to leave the Justice League. Not while the movies are coming out (so for like the next 10 years).

>>87322515
Be honest, speaking purely from an in-universe perspective, it would be Wally that decides to change names.

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>>87322716
Hmmm it's almost like we've gone through this exact same situation before in the greatest story in Flash history. Let's see how it went down.

You also missed my point. Barry should change his name. Jay is The Flash.

>>87322716
You are 100% wrong. More wrong than you know, casual new 52 fag.

>>87322686
That seems to be the most possible scenario until they give Wally his book. Newcomer writers are huge Wallyfags so I can see him popping up in a JL spin off.

>>87322716
Entire point of his run was to establish him beyond a "replacement" which he succeeded. Williamson is a huge fan of this story >>87322840 so it's obviously not happening in near future.

>>87322433
>Zoom aside, although even he loses points for being an evil speedster in a goddamn sea of them.

Hunter worked very well because he came after a long run without using evil speedsters, he was a big deal when he adopted the Zoom costume and he was the embodiement of everything building up until that point.

What a fucking shame Williamson tried to recreate that magic and fucking failed.

>>87323214

>Williamson tried to recreate that magic and fucking failed

well part of that is every fucking writer decides to do an evil speedster story. at least Manabooch waited until the climax of their run

>>87323214
To be fair, even Waid did that with Wally. Williamson loses major points though what with Daniel West and Professor Zoom being so prominent right before him: our cup runneth over with evil Flashes. It's nearly Joker-level saturation.

>>87323214
Zoom also worked because Hunter's character was developed for a fucking year before he went bad.

We were just told August and Barry were friends even though August never existed before. Their friendship only played out in relation to August's furious sense of justice over his brother. We never saw why they were friends. It makes the betrayal shallow and uninteresting. It's Zolomon without any of the character development on top of the evil speedster fatigue. That character had no fucking chance.

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>>87323249
>>87323262
I was actually talking about "morally gray" approach Williamson had to Godspeed. He shamelessly ripped off from Zolomon but like >>87323285 said he fucking failed.
I like that Johns never tried for a "WHO IS UNDER THE MASK??" mystery with him, we just watched a car crash waiting to happen.

>>87323395

Ahh ok. I was actually more disappointed because I liked the supporting cast that was getting built with him and the 2 women speedsters and etc and was really sad when it fell apart. but williamson seems to be keeping some plot threads alive so i'm not that discouraged

>>87323445
Honestly even that part was ripped off from the Daniel West story. The only remotely original part of Godspeed's story was Kid Flash's inclusion, which was admittedly the best part, but not nearly enough to save it. This nearly month-long arc was just an amalgam of other stories with nothing to call its own.

>>87323496
And Daniel West was a Savitar rip off.

Hm let me get super powerful by taking the speed force connection from other people and giving them to me!

Like I said earlier, everyone's been ripping off Savitar lately. It's gonna be sad because in the show they're going to think Savitar is a Zoom and Thawne ripoff when he's the fucking original speed stealer.

>>87323568
To be honest, I never liked Savitar much and am perfectly fine with Zoom and Thawne ripping him off. It's the rapid procession of the same story over and over that really gets to me.

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>>87323445
He's pretty much Hunter Zolomon/Danny West amalgam but with shittier writing and build up.

Just compare this to above pic

>>87323695
The hilarious thing about Blitz is Zoom was right all along.

He forces Wally to time travel and Wally fixes everything by time travelling. Which is all Zoom wanted in the first place.

>>87323776
but he did it unwittingly. and thanks to fucking barry messing with time of course.

>>87323849
Unwittingly or not, the right move was to time travel and save the day. Didn't ruin anything despite pretty direct action.

>>87324024
Flash's stance on time travel always was a little weird and wonky. Hell, Barry going back to save his mom shouldn't even count as time travel fuckery, he was just undoing what Zoom caused by time traveling in the first place.