>there are people who unironically believed what Bill said

>>87168779
What did he say?

>>87168779
but he was right about classic Superman, your Byrne-created Superman wasn't the one he was talking about

>>87168869
that Superman is the identity, Clark Kent is the alter ego, and that he what Supes sees as a "critique" to human beings

>>87168886
it wasn't applicable to Silver Age Supes I'd argue

>>87168869
Bill is a professional assassin and the movie is about one of his fellow assassins who wanted to retire from the game and raise a child, so he had her beaten and left for dead on their wedding day (I think he thought that the whole thing was some kind of plot, and played along with it until he could turn the tables).

Near the end of the movie, he goes on a monologue about why he loves Superman. He says that since Superman is better than humanity, he has no reason to be ever be Clark Kent. The only explanation he can come up with is that Superman is mocking humanity by acting weak and helpless, because that's how he sees us. The whole thing is supposed to show that the guy can't comprehend that anyone would want to live a normal life by choice, but a lot of people take it at face value since the movie never explicitly calls him out on it.

>>87169076
funnily enough I'd argue Luthor probably has this mindset too

>>87168917
>it wasn't applicable to Silver Age Supes I'd argue
It was, read Maggins book, that Superman came after Silver Age. Maggins actually published an essay about it recently too.

>>87168779
He was right about classic Superman... for the most part. Superman genuinely LOVES Clark. It's not a critique of the human race.

>>87168779
What a shitty movie. It proved for all time that Tarantino is a hack.

>>87169163
that sounds more like Maggins' pov

>>87168779
It wasn't profound at all, and I say that as someone who enjoyed Kill Bill.

>>87169266
It isn't just Maggins's POV, a lot of writers did write Superman that way. It is pretty evident in those books which I doubt you've read. The whole split personality thing was played up a lot in those stories. He'll Carey Bates actually wrote a story where Superman splits into two person and if that doesn't tell you, I don't know what will. "Clark and Superman are one and same person" and "Superman is the mask," both these memes are widespread norm now because of Byrne's lack of fundamental understanding of what Superman was. Actually Byrne did understand it, he just didn't like it.

>>87168917
Well he was half right.

>>87169125
>Implying he knows

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>>87169125
That's pretty much the only reason he doesn't know Clark Kent is Superman. I don't like the idea that Superman can trick all his friends and loved ones with a simple disguise but I love the idea that Luthor's arrogance is practically a mental defect.

I would say it depends on the era of Superman you read.

Doesn't it speak more of Bill's mindset that was how he read Superman and how he believed that you could never be normal if you were like him?

>>87169076
> but a lot of people take it at face value since the movie never explicitly calls him out on it.

Yeah I remember when I used to listen to the Rooster Teeth podcast Bernie took it at face value as this genius view of the character.

>>87168917
>>87169076
Thanks buddies. Well in this case he's wrong then. Clark has always had mental fortitude but not physical strength, leading him to cowardice. The original Clark, the one who decided to become Superman, is a mixture of both this Clark and Superman. Clark Kent always strives to do the right thing, and reports on things to show this. Plus being Superman 24/7 would tire anyone. The mental strain of never being able to relax is just too much.

Don't get mad, but BvS also plays with the importance of secret identities. Bruce Wayne was the one who got the info and was invited to the gala. Clark Kent was the one who investigated in Gotham, Superman would not be able to do that. Clark, in this way, can do things that Superman can't. This means Clark is better in some ways.

The funniest part is when he says the art isn't very good, as if one guy drew every single issue.

>>87170601
it does but you may never know with people

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>>87170601

The Internet is incapable of understanding the difference between a writer's opinion and a character's opinion.

It's saying everything about Bill and why he tried to kill The Bride. he considers the idea of exceptional people choosing to become unexeptional to be an insult to themselves, he literally can't comprehend the notion of Beatrix wanting to leave the life and settle down in the middle of nowhere with a nice, boring husband when she could still be one of the DIVAS.

That's why the first scene has Bill talking about how he doesn't consider what he did to Beatrix to be sadistic, he seems to think a violent, bloody death is a more fitting "conclusion" to her life then domesticity. It's also why he disinterested in considering the dozens of pother people he killed at the wedding, he thinks of them as lesser beings compared to himself and the people that run in his world.

It's not actually "about" Superman any more then the first scene of Pulp Fiction is about hamburgers and foot massages.

>>87170817
>writer's opinion and character's opinion

funny you mention that considering how often writers, especially in comic books, like to push agendas

>>87170817
>The Internet is incapable of understanding the difference between a writer's opinion and a character's opinion.
No just morons. There's an issue of Byrne's Fantastic Four where a reader berates him for something a villain said because as the author " all characters had his voice"

Can somebody explain the whole Maggins thing since I haven't read his comic stuff

Is he in favor of what Bill said or nah?

Supposedly he met Superman like Morrison did also in his book Miracle Monday Maggins had Superman behave more align to a scientist like his biological father Jor-El

>>87170817
>foot massages
That was obviously the director's opinion and not the character's.

>tfw never watched Kill Bill

thanks for spoiling it faggots

>>87171631
It's in the title, silly. Bill gets killed.

>>87168779
It WAS profound, because it revealed his motivations and attitude towards Beatrice without directly stating it: he thinks of her as Superman and thinks it's wrong that she would ever want to stop being his assassin, not just because it's bad for him, but because he believes it'd also be bad for her.

>>87170696

That's because the older Superman comics had a clear character design. Fuck, Jack Kirby's drawings of Superman during his runs in the 70's had to be redrawn to look more like Curt Swan's style.

>>87168779
I'm still a little mad Beatrice got a lengthy fight with all the other female assassins, but her fight with Bill was short and a litttle anti-climatic in comparison.

>>87168779
Yes, /co/ and batfags in general.

>>87171011

The thing is that back then Superman was pretty much... Superman.

You'd have Superman constantly traveling to the past when Krypton was still around to learn more about the Els and Krypton's cultures, you'd have Superman going inside the Bottled City of Kandor to commune with the kryptonians living there, you'd have Superman studying about Krypton's past through its mementos in his Fortress of Solitude, you'd have Superman using kryptonians phrases, you'd have Superman worshiping Rao the kryptonian deity.

He was pretty much Ka-El most of the time. You'd hardly see him interacting or talking about the Kents or his time back in Smallville. The Clark Kent of Metropolis was clearly a fake and that was the only "normal" persona presented to us.

So yeah, Superman back then was Superman all the way.

>>87169323
Kill Bill is fantastic if you only see it as a revenge-flick. He hasn't made a "deep" film in years.

>>87171872
Well, it was more of an emotional fight, and the movie as a whole was a lot more Western inspired compared to the first Kill Bill. So it was appropriate that it ends with an emotional confrontation followed by the kung fu equivalent of a quick draw.

>>87172029
It's one film, but nobody likes intermissions anymore.

>>87172022
>He hasn't made a "deep" film in years.
He has never made a deep film ever.

>>87171026
Wew, nice one pal!

>>87170864

They do but you can't say that they do unless they own up to it. It's toxic to good literature to attach opinions in fiction to their authors.

>>87171872
I liked it. Both knew they couldn't fuck around with the other so they were of a mind to end it quickly.

Imagine the end of the movie with their meeting, Bill's monologue, that whole sequence of scenes. Now add a 10-minute long samurai fight in there. Would've seemed silly.

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back in the day did Superman even give a shit about his Earth parents?

Golden age Superman at least seemed to be 100% Superman and Clark really was just a secret identity

>>87168779
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jiQdqoe1cU

Yeah, there's nothing to the argument, huh? :rolleyes:

>>87168779
Oh God, can we not repeat this bullshit, please? More than a decade later and the motherfuckers who watched this movie considered it the bread and butter of Super-fucking-Man.

Here's the retort.

"My name is Clark Kent. GET OFF MY PLANET."

>>87173043
People forget that Clark Kent being a normal guy and not a complete buffoon is a relatively recent take on the character.

>>87168779

He's not wrong, OP.

>>87171872
She and Bill were supposed to have a moonlit duel on the beach for real, but they ran out of money or something. I don't remember why they dropped it, but it was going to happen.

>>87173043
I can't even remember Superman 4 because it was such an abortion, but I'm suddenly shipping Clark with Lucy.

>>87173208
Yeah, it sucks that Bill left us hanging instead.

>>87173186
He died hanging himself while he jacked off

He probably fucked it up the night before filming and couldn't jog without passing out

>>87173186
I liked the Bill fight.

There were plenty of neato, long fights throughout the movies. The ending was more about Beatrix's and Bill's resolve.

>>87173104
>"My name is Clark Kent. GET OFF MY PLANET."

For every single issue where Clark kent is a real-ish person, there's like a year's worth of issues of him being a bumbling idiot.

>>87173253

He died half a decade after Kill Bill was filmed and released you idiot.

>>87173043
>Superman 4

>>87173429
Maybe it's best to distinguish between Clark Kent the Daily Planet reporter, and Clark Kent the down-home farmboy. The latter is certainly realer, I think.

>>87172974
Yes, but they didn't get brought up a lot because they were dead by the time he became Superman (though they popped up in Superboy stories).

>>87169076
Thats not his point at all. His point is that Clark Kent is Superman's alter-ego, not the other way around, and that Clark Kent's characteristics are weak and cowardly, which is Suoerman's critique on the whole human race. Superman is Super, and thus whenever he is Clark Kent, he is not living up to his full potential. He's limiting himself. Which is what he thinks Beatrix is doing by wanting to live a normal life.

>there are people who can stomach Kill Bill
How?
It has none of Tarantino's usual charm and generally feels like a dull attempt at making a modern-day samurai movie.

>>87171872
As someone who somehow saw that final scene before the others in the movie, going back and watching the batshit insanity of the first movie was pretty jarring and awesome

>>87168779
Autism strikes again. Bill doesn't care for superman. He make a parabel to convince the bride. Would the movie be better if the bride response was : "Actchually Supes would..."?

>>87168779

Bill was right. Whether or not Superman consciously understands he's critiquing the human race doesn't matter, the fact is he definitely chooses to be more insecure, bumbling, and beta-like when he's disguised as Clark.

>>87173253
>>87173983
That was a hollywood hitman that killed him, anyways. The same one that got Robin Williams.

>>87175911
>Bill was right.
Bill was up his own ass, that was the entire point.
He could not conceive of why anyone would want to live a normal life. Parallel to how Lex Luthor was unable to understand why Superman would disguise himself as a normal person in that one comic from the eighties.

>>87176287
What the fuck are you talking about?

>>87174854
You're on the right track, but it's more like Clark Kent, Reporter for the Daily Planet, Superman, de facto leader of the Justice League, and Clark, super powered farmboy.

>>87170864
The hallmark of a good writer is one that either doesn't do that or uses an opinion to create a compelling story. KOTOR 2 is one of my favorite Star wars stories and it was written by someone who hated Star wars. Alan Moore hated super heroes.

>>87168779
I think that Bill is both right and wrong, the thing is that his belief in Superman's personality is what is important in the scene. Either he chooses to focus on the older Superman comics where he feels superior to all and superdickery was at an all time high, or he completely misses the point of the newer Superman who lives as a mortal among them.

Either way it shows an inability to grasp the concept of someone with superior capabilities wanting to live shoulder to shoulder with mundane and normal people. He is unable to grasp the concept of a Superman that wants to be part of humanity instead of tower above it.

The point of that scene is what Bill views Superman to be and what he thinks is heroic and powerful.

>>87172674
This. I really enjoy Tarentino but he's always been a stylistic campy director. More Carpenter than Bergman. I wish he'd stop blatantly taking shots from other movies as ''homages'' though.

>>87175170
It`s a mashup of old kung fu flicks, old samurai flicks, westers, film noire, 70's exploitation movies, all with Tarentino's usual flair (or his old flair rather). If you didn't grow up watching all that classic stuff though, i could see why it might not appeal to you. i still think that if you consider 1&2 as one whole movie, that it's Tarentino's best work. Certainly in terms of direction. If you consider them separate films then neither of them are his best though.

>>87175021

>idiots take it at face value
>no, no, let me explain it to you at face value then you'll understand

wew, lad

>>87175911
>insecure, bumbling, and beta-like when he's disguised as Clark.

Has he ever been characterized like this other than in the movies? Usually he's mild-mannered. At most you could say he's a coward since he has to run away to, you know, become Superman. He just doesn't want any trouble most of the time, kind of like Thomas Wayne in Batman Begins.

>>87178027
the Donner movies really solidified it as the go-to characterization for Clark

>>87178118
Wish it didn't.

NOT MUH CLARK

>>87168779

I think it's a valid interpretation. A lot of it is outright true (the bit about him being born Superman and his costume being his native clothing), depending on the story.

Furthermore, he never says that Superman's "critique" is a conscious decision, he just comments on the characteristics he chooses to exhibit when in his Clark Kent persona. Bill's making the inference that Clark Kent is how Superman subconsciously sees humanity, not that Superman is riffing on humanity by creating Clark Kent. He's not saying Superman puts his glasses on and then grins because he's wearing them ironically or something.

I don't agree with it, but it's still interesting.

>>87169076
I just wanted to give this post props for nimbly dancing around relevant spoilers

>>87177141
>More Carpenter than Bergman
What the fuck is up with that comparison really.
It's like comparing pizza to pasta, what the fuck.

>>87177704
He's right though

>>87178421
who cres about spoilers for a decade old movie? that would be like spoiling "return of the king" or "the Matrix" people qoute lines and make parodies of it all the time.

Besides the film isn't really about the end after all the title is "kill bill' its about her journey to be able to kill bill and find her daughter

>>87178565
It's like saying a hamburger is closer to smoked meat sandwich than it is to quail.

Which makes it pretty factual.

>>87173175
Lex, quit shitposing on /co/.

>>87168779
>not posting the scene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWTJIBGNId0

ITT fags arguing about a very clear statement as if it had more depth

Even Tarantino wouldn't have thought that much about this, you fucking mungos.

>>87169076

A lot of people forget Vivica A Fox's character. She has an incredibly important role in the film. No, it's not sequel bait for a another film. Her giving up her life and having a family is EXACTLY what the Bride wanted. Bill is saying all this stuff about identity to get to the Bride but he is wrong. If one of his Snakes could give up their life and have a family, why not the Bride as well? Vivica A Fox died a mother, not an assassin. Bill on the other hand.... did he die a Father or a Snake Charmer? At the very end he did what he does, which is try to manipulate people. Bill could not give up his life of killing and hurting people, but the Bride clearly was capable of it, pleading for her life when she finds out she is pregnant, not wanting to kill a child crazy 88, she was transitioning into a mother. Bill was very much wrong.

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>>87180002
>tarantino doesn't over think shit

.......

>>87178795
>decade old movie
surely you jest... oh

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Bride should have countered and start a discussion on why Batman is neither Batman nor Bruce Wayne, both are a facade

>>87176851
Alan Moore doesn't Superheroes he hates Image, DC and marvel. He hates the superhero genre and the indolent beast it's become. Superheroes are pretty cool but the genre is trash.

>>87175021
this, a pretty good observation and an insight into Bills mind.

>>87169241
fuck you, its my favorite movie, Vol 2 is god tier underrated

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>>87180474
>yfw Kill Bill 2 Director's Cut just ends with Beatrix and Bill arguing about interpretations of comics for about a half hour and he doesn't get shot

>>87168779
>Auto
I just can't take the actor or any of his work seriously now because of how he died.

>>87168779
first volume was better than the second volume

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>>87174854
>Clark Kent the down-home farmboy.
>Reducing an entire characters existence down to a catchphrase

This is why Superman is struggling these days. Sooner we get away from this simplistic thinking the better.

>>87180474
BRUCE WAYNE LIVES IN BATMAN'S ATTIC!

>>87181709
There are people who claim to be Superman fans and say that he isn't complex. Those people are liars.

>>87168779
>unironically believing in anything at all

>>87168779
My GF was babysat by him when she was young because her dad was a meth addict.

He's a bro. She was very sad when he passed.

>>87168779
*gasp*
It wasnt?!?

>>87178412
>Bill's making the inference that Clark Kent is how Superman subconsciously sees humanity
To me, this is the point of contention. I don't think Clark is looking down on humanity with his portrayal, he's just trying to make sure he's low-key and doesn't draw attention to himself. In fact, I'd say he does this so well that he goes too far in the opposite direction in most interpretations. Most people aren't that limp.

>>87168779

Bill is the villain giving a speech to the hero about her true nature even though he was (mostly) wrong. When he was talking about Superman he may as well have had a neon sign above his head flashing "He's full of shit!"

>>87180242
He doesn't, you dense fuck.
Have you watched any of his fucking movies?

>>87168779
as profound as anything superman related can hope to be

>>87169076
>>87180131
This right here is what makes the film great and also genuinely feminist. By saying that women can do something men cannot, women can put their own ego aside for the sake of another. Bill cannot do that.
But some men can. Bud did. Bud was in some ways the most evolved man in either film. Capable of putting his ego aside.
You may say this isn't true since he buried the bride alive. Cruelty is neither here nor there for this though. He'll the bridge cutoff three of a woman's limbs while giving her enough medical care to keep her alive. All humans are cruel. But Bud and women are capable of being cruel for others.

>>87181709
The whole premise of the thread was someone reducing it to Clark Kent vs. Superman. My point is that there are different aspects of the Clark Kent persona that exist in different contexts, some realer than others.

What makes you think that I'm talking about "an entire character's existence" from one specific context of one specific identity of a character?

>>87168779
It was pretty profound. Also, it was profoundly wrong.

>>87185345
and here they come

>>87183652
>Have you watched any of his fucking movies?
Have YOU?
His compositions are not that of a thoughtless director.