>even the CBR posters are mad with the retcon in the last

The problem with the retcon is that Mockingbird fucking dropped the guy to his death. When she was drugged and raped by him, that made sense. Since it was an accident that helped because she lashed out.

But if she wasn't drugged and raped, just had a fling, then why did she accidentally killed the guy? Just to cover the betrayal?

Also, the drug made her be fall in love, so even if the character really believe she just had sex, we can't trust her POV, since it is a POV born out of drug.

Did Marvel really put out another comic where one of their prominent female characters get raped?

What happened? I have sense enough to avoid Mockingbird, so I'm out of the loop.

>mockingbird
literally who

so she cheated on Clint then killed the guy because?

>>87116157

Okay now hold on, let me think about this.

My understanding of the continuity - if I might laughably call it that - it went like this:

Mockingbird gets replaced by a Skrull. The skrull gets raped, murders the rapist, and then dies. She goes to hell for murdering the guy, still thinking that she's Mockingbird, and later gets brought back to life briefly by the Scarlet Witch before dying again and going back to hell.

Then the real Mockingbird returns from space where she was being held by skrulls the whole time, and now she was actually dating the guy who the skrull raped? Is that how it works?

>>87116058
Did Mockingbird drug and rape someone or something?

>>87116058
Chelsea Cain's series will be forgotten and nothing in it will be held up in the future, because it sold terribly.

>>87116058
Thank god this was canceled.

>>87116360
She was drugged and raped by Phantom Rider and ended up letting him fall to his presumed death as revenge, which caused a rift between her and Clint that lead to their divorce

The retcon is that she was never drugged, actively cheated on Clint, and considers Phantom Rider a "skeezy ex" because she always makes her own decisions and is therefore incapable of being drugged or raped ever because those are apparently choices the victim makes themselves now

Who the fuck even likes Mockingbird anyway?

>>87116502
>The retcon is that she was never drugged, actively cheated on Clint, and considers Phantom Rider a "skeezy ex" because she always makes her own decisions and is therefore incapable of being drugged or raped ever because those are apparently choices the victim makes themselves now

And also she let the guy die for reasons.

Congrats, Chelsea, she her own choices and didn't get raped. Instead she willingly cheated on Clint then let the guy she cheated with die. A scumbag instead.

>>87116548
The new version is worse to us, but to the writer and (some) feminists, it is better because it shows she made all the choices herself. It doesn't matter that they were shitty choices (cheating), just that she empowered herself.

>>87116548
>let's him die

How?

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>>87116502
>actively cheated on Clint
He cannot catch a break, can he?

>>87116183
no they just referenced it, thus making it canon
they instead put out a stupid comic where a female writer put all her wish fulfillment into the protagonist

>>87116502
I guess being a sociopath (in a realistic, not in a glorified Hollywood way) makes a superhero better for some.

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>>87116335
No, I think the thing that McCann did with accounting for the Skrull is that the Phantom Rider stuff happened to Bobbi, but then the Skrull version of her was the one who divorced Clint.

>@TealBaum: @ChelseaCain so Bobbi was saying she gave her consent to the ghost guy way back when and Clint just didn't want to believe it?

>@ChelseaCain: @TealBaum Yep. Wanted to draw attention to the fact that we've only heard these stories from a male POV. Which is really the problem.

"Male POV". Pretty sure the entire fallout was from both Hawkeye and Mockingbirds pov

So Hawkeye is cucked?

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>>87116608

Turning a rape involving drugs into Bobbi "making her own choices" all along is kind of skeevy.

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>>87116335
>Mockingbird gets replaced by a Skrull. The skrull gets raped, murders the rapist, and then dies. She goes to hell for murdering the guy, still thinking that she's Mockingbird, and later gets brought back to life briefly by the Scarlet Witch before dying again and going back to hell.
>
>Then the real Mockingbird returns from space where she was being held by skrulls the whole time, and now she was actually dating the guy who the skrull raped? Is that how it works?
What the fuck did I just read?

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>>87116627

Has the writer come out and said why she let Phantom Rider die, then?

>>87116608
So it's officially confirmed by the writer that it's not a misinterpretation, but Mockingbird actually did cheat and then murdered the guy who she cheated with to cover it up or because she changed her mind afterwards.

This just keeps getting better.

>@ChelseaCain: @TealBaum I think so. It is a feminist act to give a woman a point of view. Ever. Always. We don't have to be slaves to the old canon."

>>87116058
This entire comic sounds like it was an absolute shitshow. How the lack so much self-awareness that you don't realize that the retcon you did to empower your character just turned her into a psychopath and possibly a murderer? And then she thinks this makes her writing important? What?

See, the problem is that the Phantom Rider gave Mockingbird a drug that made her fall in love with him.

So if Mockingbird believe that she was never drugged and that she had sex with the Phantom Rider willingly, that's probably because the drug did its job perfectly since the drug purpose was to make her believe she really loved the guy.

>>87116626
Again making it all about the male... Fuck you.

>>87116660
But Cain, the criticism isn't about you changing her canon. It's about you changing the canon to turn her into a complete asshole.

>from rape victim to cheating slut
Fucking progressive, lady.

What's all this point of view shit she's talking about supposed to mean?

>>87116502
Don't forget everything works out for her due to no actions she herself made. She calls in a bunch of normal nerds to help her, putting them in incredible danger, and then things go cartoonishly bad for the villain. The horse his soul is bound to rides off because some guy talked to it. He summons zombie pirates, who turn out to be feminists. He, a phantom, just decides not to hurt any one, and is magically destroyed when touching water, for some reason?

Oh, and she falls into the ocean and is rescued by merpups. And is taken to a resort island.

WHAT A HERO!

>>87116681
I see what you did there.

>>87116183
That's hot. Do they have their own rape fetish guy like Byrne's pedophile fetish?

>>87116695
apparently the old stories were inherently told from Mens POV because fuck comic book history its always been anti women,

>>87116700
I think--from writer comments/letters pages--that the 'high concept' of the book is "This is Bobbi's power fantasy/a female wish fulfillment book, and so the guys are always hot and shirtless, she always wins, she makes all the choices", but it comes across as just being the girl version of "Christ, what an asshole".

Which for some kinds of feminism is a-ok because female choice is paramount; for other kinds, this is going to get the stinkeye.

>>87116723
So from a woman's point of view being drugged and then fucked isn't rape but a romantic night out?

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Is there a half-decent female comic writer?

>>87116502

Well, look on the bright side. If this doesn't share continuity with Earth 616 then that simply renders this book non-canon relative to other Marvel books.

>>87116757
Simone was decent, Sadly her quality has gone down.

>>87116058
Stupid bitch, Atleast she isn't writing comics anymore.

She ruined Mockingbird though so she'll be remembered for that.

>>87116757
This is giving me a new respect for KSD Captain Marvel just flat-out saying "We're not referencing Avengers 200" and letting it lie. Even though the book was dull and the mindwipe was too.

>>87116757
Gail Simone, once

>>87116757
I like Kathryn Immonen.

>>87116790
The late Kim Yale.

>>87116695
She keeps talking about how the original story is from a "male POV," but if
>>87116627
>>87116646
is any indication, then it's Bobbi herself who says she was drugged, not Clint deluding himself like the Mockingbird solo series describes. I guess by "Male POV" she means that the original story was written by a man?

>>87116773
Simone seems to be the only writer that comes to mind. And Ming Doyle.

>>87116757
nope, just artists. Lupachinno is <3. Kathryn Immonen wrote a pretty good Hellcat run

>>87116757
Liu

>>87116640
Something that sounds believable enough for the genre, really.

>>87116822
Liu is horrible.

>>87116569
In the old comic Mockingbird let Phantom Rider drop to his death in a fucking canyon then didn't tell anyone about it because she didn't want them to know he raped her.

Now she did it because she didn't want Clint to know she cheated on him I guess?

>>87116757
Corinna Bechko
Amanda Conner

>>87116757
That chick who's writing Shade

>>87116854
Strong and powerful women, am I right?

>>87116820
Lupa is terrible and you should feel bad for liking her "art"

>>87116548
I like when female characters are allowed to fuck up and make bad choices, but this just makes Bobbi out to be a straight up bad person instead

>>87116757
Mariko Tamaki

>>87116810
Maybe G wilson

>>87116862
>Amanda Conner
HA
A

>>87116744
That's the point. She made no choices! She was a bystander in the fight, she did nothing.

Feminist wish fulfillment is apparently that life is a Disney kids show, you never have to do anything, you are given everything, and if there is any conflict it will magically works out in 20 minutes.

What a childish mindset.

>>87116873
What do you like bitch?

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>>87116866
Shade is my favourite comic of the entire year and we're only one issue in. So good.

>>87116757
GWW 's Ms Marvel is good all memeing aside, her other Marvel works not so much. Haven't read what she has done outside of it though.

>>87116854

You're forgetting the fact that the drug the Phantom Rider gave Mockingbird made her fall in love with him, so her saying she did everything willingly with the guy holds no wight whatsoever. Her thinking was influenced by the drug and might still be.

Her FEMALE POV is faulty thanks to love potions.

I feel like all this nonsense was intended to be some form of absurdist satire but because the writer is a hack it's just dumb bullshit.

>>87116757
I can think of plenty the author of fma and dorohedoro are both women.

>>87116058
Does this mean Phantom Rider can join the Avengers now?

I like how Clint is shown to be absolutely irrational over the whole subject.

"I just let a man drop to his death, Clint. Why are you so upset?"

>>87116873
>He doesn't like Lupa Cheesecake

>>87116913

YESSSS

THISSSSS

Shit, Loma

>>87116954
Well he does have some red in his ledger.

>>87116942
And Mushishi. FMA is overrated as fuck

>>87116942
Comic, anon. There's a huge cultural divide between women here and women over there.

Example, Inio Asano, who wrote Punpun, Dead Demon, etc. is a chick. Best artist and writer going.

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You know what i want, /co/? I female writer writing BATMAN. Just to see what happens.

>>87116989
>>87116942
Rose of Versailles, motherfuckers.

>>87116898
I think the issue where she rescues Lance Hunter is more of the classic "kick ass and take names" fantasy just with a certain amount of superficial female audience icing on it. Just trying to reconstruct what I think the writer's trying to do here--I was 'meh' on the tone to begin with, but this is kind of perversely fascinating to see what an obsession with a certain take on POV and 'agency' brings you to, when rewriting older canon.

>>87117004
I think it happen in the 90s.

>>87116757
Mia Goodwin is doing pretty well. Tomboy is one of my favorite comics this year.

>>87116998
Did he get a sex change or something?

>>87117004
Batman could finally fuck the joker.

>>87116987
Oh yeah, wasn't that just some bank robberies?

>>87117035
kek ye some shit like that
feels like bender when he enters the olympics

>>87116757

Early 2000s Simone was okay.

The one who makes Unsounded is okay.

Katie Dietrich? Do strips count?

>>87116887
If wilson is the ms marvel writer. ill go with her because she made miles more interesting in 9 pages than fucking bendis has his entire career.

>>87116547

I do. Because of her ass.

I just wrote to her some tweets, think she'll respond?

>>87117065
Oh wow, what an achievement. Truly.

>>87117004
Devin Grayson

>>87117072
Depends, did you make rational points that made sense like the fact Mockingbird covered up her cheating by murdering a man?
If so then no

>>87116669
>This entire comic sounds like it was an absolute shitshow. How the lack so much self-awareness that you don't realize that the retcon you did to empower your character just turned her into a psychopath and possibly a murderer? And then she thinks this makes her writing important? What?
She's a hack. A shameless fucking hack.
That's about it.

>>87116954
>The cucks on bleeding cool depending Cain
There's not a lot of them but some arguments are pretty funny
>It doesn't remove the rape.
>Her denial doesn't deny the literal (actual correct usage?) events on the pages shown above, also, it's an interpretation of events.
>I hate (haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate) going literal, but even if you just read the passage it's an interpretive stance on someone else's opinion of what happened (within said universe) … it doesn't read as a rewrite, as much as a character handling a horrific ordeal from their past the only way they can.
>I like that Chelsea did something that makes Bobbi and Clint both better, stronger, brighter characters with that arc. They both deserve it. I'll miss this book.
>It makes her a flawed human being who made a mistake, versus a heroine who is defined by that time she was raped for weeks because she was a woman.
>It also makes Clint better. Because instead of being an asshole who couldn't try to understand a woman he loved doing something she normally wouldn't have after being sexually assaulted, it makes him a guy who left a woman because she cheated on him and hurt him.
>In the original, she comes off as weak and a cliche victim of rape, while he comes off as kind of a piece of shit

>>87117072
No.

>>87117072
Did you tell her you want to eat her ass?

>>87116608
And no one called her out on the murder thing.

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>>87116757
Does she counts.

>>87116502

> fucked a dude
> killed him
> lied to her husband and says she was raped
> a woman wrote this

What is wrong with modern women?

>>87117105
Basically I asked what's the reason behind her killing him if she wasn't drugged and raped if not to cover up her cheating.

Plus whether the male POV is the writer or Clint.

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>Wow.

>Maybe that story wasn't a great idea in the first place--there are too many stories of female heroes being raped and otherwise sexually victimized. That is certainly true. But that doesn't mean that its a good idea to just throw it out with a single line of dialogue. Leaving aside the fact that it is ridiculously disrespectful to the work of a previous writer (and whatever one may think of Englehart's Phantom Rider/rape storyline, his use of Bobbi in his WCA run both before, during and after that arc is a HUGE part of Mockingbird having the fanbase she does today), it also retcons far more than that one arc. The fallout of that situation extended way beyond Englehart's original story. We're now also retconning Jim McCann's HAWKEYE & MOCKINGBIRD series, since it also dealt with the Phantom Rider legacy.

>And I just don't understand how Cain can't see how this idea does serious damage to Bobbi's character. Hooray, she isn't a rape survivor anymore--instead she is a lying, manipulative adultress who is also a cold blooded murderer. Gee, that's SO much better.

>I absolutely loved this series....but I just have to ignore that one scene from the final issue, otherwise it will sour the entire thing for me. I know Cain loves Bobbi so I'm sure she had the best of intentions here, but the result is truly disgusting.

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>>87116502
That just sounds like a realistic female.

>>87116627
So why did she kill him if she wasn't drugged in this run?

>>87117112
>while he comes off as kind of a piece of shit
This is true. But being a victim of rape does not automatically make someone weak. Fuck you idiot on cbr.

>>87116890
>NOT MUH TUMBLR LANDWHALE
HA
A

>>87117153
no, because she was just in charge of quality control , she never wrote anything

>>87116757
Simone, Immonen, Valentine, Lui.

>>87117153
Yes, totally.

>>87117156
Kate Leth fucked a married man with cancer.

>>87117153
Of course not, she's not a writer.

>>87116646
>Phantom Rider laughing his ass off
Good for him.

>>87116660
But you can present her POV without changing events. What the fuck is this woman on about?

>>87116203
Mockingbird is actually pretty good, that issue is its only fault
Id take her over black widow anyday

>>87116392
Thank God.

What a waste of the best artist Bobbi's had in forever.

>>87117176
but Clint is a piece of shit, he was literally a criminal before Cap took him under his wing. Turning him into a cuck is just worse

>>87117166
>Tomino characters
>realistic
IT'S BECAUSE OF YOU ADULTS!

>>87116757
i like anya davidson, leslie stein and lisa hanwalt, they're also artists too though

>>87116157

Wait a sec. They actually referenced the Phantom Rider/Lincoln slade incident recently? I'm surprised, that was the first west coast avengers story I read as a kid.

>>87117180
Harley Quinn is terrible and you're terrible for thinking it's not

>>87116952
underrated post

>>87117181
I mean.

CLEARLY that is an important job, as we can see.

>instead of her actually getting raped, you now have her lying about being raped, perpetuating that stereotype.

Sure NOW she's saying it was consensual, but now you've fucked the actual immedate aftermath and she's instead lying about rape.

>>87117258
Go schlick to that slut Bobbi.

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god no, I already have fucking Marguerite "Unsolicited Opinions on Israel" Bennett on Batwoman, And I don't want her sick and twisted ideas of girl power

>>87117168
I don't know--for me, that's the real sticking point in the retcon where it goes from "This has some ugly implications but I get what she's aiming for" to "Did you really mean THIS?"

This has to be some sort of deep-cover poison the well type thing. No one can be this fucking dense. I know modern editors don't exercise much authority over writers, but they still give orders, right? They still declare what is and is not on the table? There's no damn way she strolled into someone's office and said she would eventually reveal Mockingbird as a murderous sociopath, no matter how funny the book tries to make that seem, without realizing how her writing would reflect on all those feminists constantly howling for better stories. It's a plot. Dear lord let it be a plot.

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>>87117285

>>87117213
I mean if anything, "My husband is so obsessed with not killing he tore into me over killing my rapist brainwasher and now he just murdered Bruce Banner" would be a fascinating POV story.

>>87117168
Because she's quirky. And a bitch. But hey NuMale fagged costume party and mermaid Corgis.

Never has a comic made me hate a breed of dog.

>>87116854
Feminists are the reason many don't trust women and rightly so.

>>87117285
Remember that many writers who suck at Marvel usually do well at DC.

>>87116757

I really enjoyed Marjorie Liu's Astonishing X-Men, though her run of X23 was a bit hit and miss. This said she's the only writer that's ever gotten me to give a shit about Gambit as a character and that's no small feat.

>>87117308
Because DC editors actually do their job instead of jerking off and posting on twitter all day.

>>87117232
CHILDREN NEVER DO ANYTHING WRONG
>Ever read Lord of the Flies Tomino

actually don't read lord of the flies tomino

still props on the guy for reminding the japanese government that having such a boner for rearming's a terrible idea.

>>87117303
I'm so glad I'm a German Shepherdfag and they're not "quirky" enough to ruin.

>>87117285
Oh joy, Kate going further down the spirial of character development.

>>87117299
Thanks for the rare Didio anon, I haven't seen this one yet.

I just tweeted this at her:

@cheleasecain Bc it's being discussed & better to ask than assume: Did Bobbi willingly cheat on Clint & kill PR out of spite in this story?

If she replies I'll post a screencap to this thread. Genuinely curious as to what she'd have to say.

>>87117356
Probably because they're a good DOG, not a shitty pet.
They're the kind of dog you take hunting and then head home to chill out with.
Not something you take a million pictures of because it's fucking cute or some bullshit and you need to show it off because you're an idiot.

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>>87117305
You could've prevented this.

>>87117368
Don't post /co/ out there. You'll give everyone involved the excuse to ignore the content because it comes from 4chan.

>>87116547
Shes my waifu

>>87117426
>both drunk
>yet he still looks like a predator and that he's planned this

Yea forget women.

>>87117426
>>87117471
It's not like he'd get any sort of sentence

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>>87117510
>It's not like he'd get any sort of sentence

>>87117452

Re-read the text of the tweet in question. I never mentioned /co/ or 4Chan; just said it was being discussed elsewhere.

>>87116757
Louise Simonson was great.

>>87117539
Sentencing for college sexual assault is hilariously low

>>87117644
Probably because it's lied about so often.

>>87117589
And Dann Thomas

>>87116058
So wait a sec, she just retconned Mockingbird into being an outright petty murder and adultress and that's supposed to make her better because they removed the rape part? Is that the reasoning?

So it's no longer that she was raped and abused by this piece of shit, she just murders him for reasons? And then divorces Hawkeye because he blatantly disagreed with her cheating on him AND just straight up murdering this dude in the 1st degree? And he's the bad guy and hypocrite?

Yeah, good portrayal of female empowerment there Chelsea Cain. Fucking crazy hack.

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>>87116058
what the hell happened in Mockingbird? anyone cares to explain?

>>87117693
False accusations are actually pretty rare

>>87117808
Feminism happened.

>>87117789
Welcome to feminism. Women can do no wrong as long as they're STRONG and make their OWN CHOICES, except when they're also always victims and should get special treatment, and men are always the bad guys.

>>87117270
So, she cheated on her husband, killed the guy, lied about it for years and called the guy a rapist, and now she's admitting it was consensual?

This is like one of those news stories where a man is in jail for 20 years for rape until his accuser admits she lied, and then wants to be friends with him. EXCEPT THE GUY IS DEAD.

Fuck you Chelsea Cain, you have made mocking bird a horrible monster.

>>87117822
Then why hasn't even college been shut down due to the sheer amount of rapes going on there?
If there's very few lies, then it's worse than Africa, nigga.

>>87116773
>I only read Marvel and DC

>>87117285
Eh, why not? They've been hoarding a lot of mediocre and shit talent lately.

>>87117827
I mean, objectively-- saw another thread yesterday saying it got cancelled; what exactly happened?

>>87117857
Low sales, so the writer probably decided to have revenge on evil patriarchy by turning a rape victim into a liar and a slut.

>>87117294

This isn't the first time a shit writer has completely fucked over a character over their 'feelings' and 'fixing them', sure as hell won't be the last.

>>87117851
>Tom Butthurt

>>87116058
Says by a self professed not-a-comic-writer who was given an established character to write.

I'm pro removing rape and fridging from Bobbi's backstory. And Clints for that matter

>>87117831
You might say she made her a mockery.

So instead of being a rape survivor that killed her rapist, Bobbi is now a person that cheated on her husband and made up a story about being drugged and raped to cover her ass?

How is that an improvement?

>>87117946
MOTHERFUCKING CARLOS GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY

>>87117949
she has her agency!!!!

>>87117949

Bobbi has agency in the story and Clint has a legitamate reason to break up with her.

>>87117882
how does that hurt anyone it just makes bobbi look evil.

>>87116058
>"shifting paradigms" in comic books
jesus fucking christ
if anyone ever discusses "shifting paradigms", that's academese for "we don't like how this story is being told and we want to infest it with identity politics"
it's one of the biggest reasons I left academia, the humanities doesn't care about accuracy or sources anymore, they just care about how you write and pander to different groups

>>87117906
Fuck off drone.

>>87117065
>>87117093
Wilson's Cairo was great.

>>87117937
Yeah, but not this way.

Like seriously, not this way.

>>87117995
Yes you're right this is an important lesson in why those positive sounding terms are not always good.

>>87118036

But it's literally true, a woman has a different POV than a guy. Englehart and Cain are super different.

This isn't a research paper it's fiction!!

>>87117589
Her Cartoon Network crossover series for IDW was absolutely horrible, it's like every writer just rots after a certain time.

>>87117035
>Did he get a sex change or something?
No. He's married and everything. I think that was just a shitty rumor.

>>87118036
Humanities is a mostly worthless branch so you had to know that was what you were getting.

>>87118069
But that does not change a sequence of events.

It can change PERCEPTION of a sequence of events but that is different and should be expressed as such, which the comic fails to do.

If Cain wanted to do a "Bobbi's all fucked up." story she should have made that clearer to the reader instead of acting like this was the new way and brilliant and why aren't you praising her more.

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>>87117219
>Mockingbird is actually pretty good, that issue is its only fault

>>87118069
Anne Rice was correct
if we go by leftist logic, no one should write any characters that they can't immediately identify with... which is retarded
if you take the identify politics people to their logic conclusion, low-class white males from NYC should write stories depicting only low-class white males from NYC. which is absurd.
Anne Rice, again, was correct: fiction is at its very essence an exercise of stretching our minds.
>>87118103
I thought that doing history would mean that my arguments and sources would trump narrative politics. turns out that's not so at the graduate level.

>>87118012
Feminist reasoning, anon.

>>87118137
I'm gonna go ahead and add in Anne Rice's full quote:

"Signing off with thanks to all who have participated in our discussions of fiction writing today. I want to leave you with this thought: I think we are facing a new era of censorship, in the name of political correctness. There are forces at work in the book world that want to control fiction writing in terms of who “has a right” to write about what. Some even advocate the out and out censorship of older works using words we now deem wholly unacceptable. Some are critical of novels involving rape. Some argue that white novelists have no right to write about people of color; and Christians should not write novels involving Jews or topics involving Jews. I think all this is dangerous. I think we have to stand up for the freedom of fiction writers to write what they want to write, no matter how offensive it might be to some one else. We must stand up for fiction as a place where transgressive behavior and ideas can be explored. We must stand up for freedom in the arts. I think we have to be willing to stand up for the despised. It is always a matter of personal choice whether one buys or reads a book. No one can make you do it. But internet campaigns to destroy authors accused of inappropriate subject matter or attitudes are dangerous to us all. That’s my take on it. Ignore what you find offensive. Or talk about it in a substantive way. But don’t set out to censor it, or destroy the career of the offending author."

>>87118158
>Rice finally writes something worth reading

>>87117187
>married person fucks someone who isn't their spouse
>the third party is the one who gets the blame

I fucking hate it with cheaters pull that shit. The third party isn't the one who said vows about being faithful.

>>87118175
>>the third party is the one who gets the blame

How oddly pertinent to Mockingbird now.

>>87118175
Takes two to tango.

>>87118109

Cain literally said that everything in the comic is from Bobbi's skewed POV.

>>87118137

Way to jump to conclusions. I was saying that a female novelist in 2012 has a different view that a dude who grew up in the comics industry in the 50/60s.

>>87118210
I'm not jumping to conclusions, I'm pointing out the logical conclusion of that line of thought. Of course a female novelist born in 1990 has a different perspective than a male novelist born in 1930, but the problem is the people involved in identity politics don't know how to apply the brakes.
It has literally reached a point where modern Jewish reader tell modern non-Jewish writers that they are evil for writing in Jewish characters; or black readers to start an Internet hate campaign against white writers for the sin of simply including a black character in their fiction.

Who cares? Mockingbird will spend the next five years in the background of crowd shots and when her name comes up in Marvel's wacky wheel of on-goings, this entire run won't even be acknowledged by the new writer.

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>>87118210

>Cain literally said that everything in the comic is from Bobbi's skewed POV.

So Bobbi's still a rape victim, because the Phantom Rider gave her a love potion that made her fall in love with him.

So if Bobbi believes herself that she cheated Clint out of her own volition, since she had sex with the Phantom Rider because she at the time loved him, she believes that because the love potion her think that way.

>>87116627
>Original story gives Clint flaws and has him doubt his own wife's rape.
>Retcon vindicates him while making his wife a sociopath, along the lines of how editorial tries to make male heroes "right" and throw women under the bus.
>This is a win for feminism

??????

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>>87116757
Goodwin

>>87118207
Yes, but only one of them is breaking a vow about not tangoing. The other person can have a myriad of different reasons for tangoing, up to the point of not having any idea about the vow not to tango. Blaming the person who's free to tango as much as they like is fucking retarded.

>>87118158
Fuck off you literally who. I've had enough of white people telling me they're allowed to write black characters. Fuck you, why do you want to take that away from black writers?

>>87116058
That's pretty stupid. Making the character a cheating bitch isn't very likable.

>>87116757
Nocenti

>>87118258

>I'm not jumping to conclusions, I'm pointing out the logical conclusion

>>87118299

>why do you want to take that away from black writers?

What's stopping black writers from writing black characters, white characters, yellow characters, blue characters or whatever the fuck else?

>>87118283
I like this book except for the plants. I hope thats just her being psychotic and imagining she can control plants. I prefer the mystery of whether shes going insane or if it's supernatural rather than a blatent show of it.

>>87118274

>So if Bobbi believes herself that she cheated Clint out of her own volition, since she had sex with the Phantom Rider because she at the time loved him, she believes that because the love potion her think that way.

yes?

>>87118317

She's fucking horrible and destroyed a bunch of Nu52 books.

>>87118327
>What's stopping black writers from writing black characters, white characters, yellow characters, blue characters or whatever the fuck else?

According to black writers, editorial.

>>87118299
Yeah let reggie go back on BP he knows the black experience as a Harvard educated black man more than any poor white person living in a ghetto possibly could.

>>87118293
It isn't so much Leth sleeping with a married person, but her flaunting the fact on social media. That's a special brand of idiotic.

>>87118299
I can't tell if this post is satire, but >>87118327 took the words right out of my mouth. whites don't complain when black authors of poor socioeconomic backgrounds write about rich white people.

>>87118334

But how can it be so when Cain is saying that she gave agency to Bobbi and that Bobbi could never be raped?

So I expect that Comic Alliance isn't going to cover this right? Right.

>>87118317
Wasn't she the one who inflicted New 52 Joker's Daughter to the world?

>>87118258
Actually the problem is that white people will tell white writers that it's not okay for them to write black characters.

>>87118355
Editorial is what makes black writers only write black characters

>>87118317
She's great but of course /co/mblr wouldn't agree.

>>87118371
what's funny is I actually live in Boston and black people who actually live in the ghetto fucking hate all the Harvard-educated blacks from rich white neighborhoods who go around telling them what to do
>>87118411
I don't care who is doing the censorship. it's wrong, period, and worst of all it's done from the most obtuse and ridiculous point of argument that undermines the fucking point of fiction.

>>87118350
And Moore's been shit for decades, that's not the point.

>>87118443
I wish there was a way to get rid of /co/mblr shits like >>87118299

>>87118454
Providence was great though

>>87117112
>>It makes her a flawed human being who made a mistake, versus a heroine who is defined by that time she was raped for weeks because she was a woman.

Women don't get raped because they're women, they get raped because rapists are bad people. Kind of sexist, Bleeding Cool.

>>87118411
And then complain when they only write white characters, because their stories lack diversity.

>>87118454
u dun it nao arry porrer

>>87118439
I mean, Seeley agrees.

>>87118388

Death of the Author? I mean even Bobbi's skewed pov is evident in the series, like the 3some ending.

In book text like letters/back matter is different from tweets or whatever is my attempt at a defense.

i think it's strange This is the comic /co/ gets riled up over

>>87118372
Not really. People flaunt their sexual life on social media all the time these days. Nothing special about it. Especially since she's not the one in trouble. The guy might be inconvenienced by her not keeping quiet, but fuck him if he is. He broke a vow.

>>87118486
The dude died.

>>87118506
Death by snu snu?

>>87118486
>it's okay to behave like a woman child because others are too.

>>87118175
>>87118207
>>87118293

We only talk about her because she openly said it and bragged about it, and he's dead anyway so no point in mentioning him.

>>87116998
>Inio Asano, who wrote Punpun, Dead Demon, etc. is a chick
No he isn't, you retarded tripfag.

>>87118478
To be fair I really do like Seely went about it though with his explanation.

I mean I'm a black woman who honestly didn't mind his Blade book but hey hopefully they can find another writer soon. Just please not roxanne gay because she's the worst.

>>87118572
>I really do like Seely went about it though with his explanation.
Explain.

>>87118472
I bet they also think that men don't and can't get raped.

>>87118572
He left because of tumblr abuse.

>>87118158
>Christians not being able to write about Jews

Then how can anyone write about Jesus?

>>87116230
Why not just say "sorry, I only follow meme characters"

>>87118623
Mockingbird is literally a meme character

>>87118620
subtle, I like it

>>87118600
He was civil and wasn't a snarky asshole which I guess is kind of sad now that I think about it since I'm so used to writers on twitter just being dicks about anything really.

>>87118616
Really? I actually saw a lot of positive posts about that book when it was announced. Granted tumblr/twitter also went after Gail Simone after she poked fun at Felicity on Arrow. Better to just ignore the crazies on that site.

>>87118572
How bad is she?

>>87118667
But he should have been an asshole about it because either the editors were in the wrong, he was getting bullied online(which is not okay) or both. He should've blasted Marvel for not letting him do the comic or express his frstraction about the racists that were bothering him about it.

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>>87116952
I want a mini series called:
'Phantom Rider "Rapes" the Marvel Universe'

>>87118711
Seeley is a pro and knows that sometimes you get to walk away from a project stuck in development hell and it's all for the better.

>>87118740
I'd read it as long as he never drops his guns because dogs bit his cape again

>>87118744
A lot of pros with more experience than him blasted publishers and then years later worked there again. Arguing is not unprofessional(shit flingig is), actually, not saying what you feel, bottling everything inside and being a yes man is not professional.

>>87118740
>Phantom Rider about to rape Native Swedes
I guess they're used to it

>>87118809
So maybe that's their style, and maybe it worked for them in some cases and didn't in others. Whatever, he seems reasonably content, and he went off and signed a DC exclusive. You're probably angrier about this than he is.

>>87118809
The las time I saw someone just wholeheartedly blame someone else for a comic being shit was static shock and that was only because he was getting blasted and his situation was fucking shit. What retarded ediotr just gives the comic to an artist.

>>87118740
>not pictured, Lincoln Slade

Isn't that the Carter Slade Phantom Rider?

>>87118299
Have you seen literally any black writer in an interview.

Most of them HATE being delegated to only getting to write black charactres in black books dude and it happens because of this fucking attitude.

>>87118210
She never said skewed, she said POV/paradigm shift. You're twisting her words so fucking hard they're going to come out of the oven as a fucking delicious pretzel.

>>87119009
>You're twisting her words so fucking hard they're going to come out of the oven as a fucking delicious pretzel.
I don't think shit can come out of the oven as a delicious pretzel.

>>87118934
Who cares?
Hit the gym, lift some weights and get a clue, ya fucking nerd.

WHY IS IT BAD THAT BOBBI TURNS OUT TO BE NOT-HEROIC?

WASNT SHE AN OLD AIM PLANT THAT CHANGED SIDES ANYWAY?

SHE IS MORE INTERESTING AS AN ANTIHERO OR BORDERLINE VILLIAN THAN YET ANOTHER GENERIC FEMALE HERO

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>>87116757
Ashley Cope is pretty great. Even if she is a bit girly

>>87119223
I don't think anyone actually read that Ales Kot story either

>>87119223
The issue is that this change is meant to shift her to a generic female hero

>>87119009
The only thing that needs to go in the oven is you, you hook nosed kike.

>>87119223
The problem is she's being given "non heroic" traits yet is played straight like she's your average straight laced hero. If this was some big lead up to a crisis of conscience and morals, then hey that might be interesting. But it won't play out that way.

>>87116058
Does she really not understand that her retcon makes Bobbi a worse person?

>>87119417
Nope.

>>87118518
No, cancer.

>>87118873
>You're probably angrier about this than he is.
Obviously. But he's enabling and even encouraging bad practices, self censorship and racism so ... yeah , it peeves me. Seeley is fairly established, has a creator owned series in Revival that's doing very well and he signed a DC exclusive. No reason to hold his tongue.

>>87118989
Except for Priest I haven't seen any examples of this.

>>87119009

sorry i used an verb instead of a noun

Is Clint the most shat on individual in Marvel?

>>87119417
Does she really think that making her a sociopathic cunt (not even in a good way) is making her stronger as a character than her being raped?
Yes, because she's retarded.

>>87117426
is that a MRA parody?

>>87119303
i get what you mean

but being morally compromised isnt necessarily bad for a marvel char

>>87119367
she works for shield, who are definitely on the grey area

the shit she put silk up to do should have given you a hint she aint no straight hero

>>87119508
it gives her at least another layer

>>87119552
Are there any Marvel characters who aren't morally compromised?

>>87118293
If I fuck your wife while knowing full well in advance that the person is a married woman then I am a piece of shit regardless of my own married status. Yes your wife is also a cheating whore, but that still doesn't change the fact I'm breaking the general societal rule of "don't fuck other people's spouses."

>>87116058
Remember, I said in the other thread from a few days ago that this was exactly what was going on. Some idiot kept trying to go "NUH UH, BOBBI IS JUST BEING CRAZY" or trying to say that it was being misinterpreted.

But no, Chelsea thought Mockingbird being a rape victim was problematic and thus it was better to turn her into a complete piece of shit who caused untold emotional distress to her husband and friends via being unfaithful because "I'M A BIG GIRL I MAKE MY OWN CHOICES AND DEAL WITH MY OWN CONSEQUENCES*!"

*She does not actually do that part.

>>87116203
The final issue of Mockingbird involved Carter Slade coming back to bedevil her. Infamously, West Coast Avengers, Slade drugged/brainwashed Mockingbird and raped her because he was obsessed with her. The trauma of this had long reaching effects for her and Hawkeye and led to the eventual dissolution of their marriage. Cain did not like the idea of Mockingbird being raped and decided to retcon it by having Bobbi state that she willingly had an affair with Slade and that the "rape" was Hawkeye's defense mechanism because he couldn't accept that his wife was cheating on him.

Bobbi is supposed to be the strong, empowered woman in this new scenario.

>>87119612
some the younger ones because they are young and havent had much chance to fuck up yet

>>87118439
That's why it took so fucking long for Priest to write another comicbook.

>>87116627
>panel 6
anyone else think clints hand looks kinda weird

>>87117843
How many times a day do you post this on average, anon? This is a fucking thread about a big 2 book.

>>87119652
>YOU'RE TEARING ME APART, BOBBI

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>>87119652
I've read that decades ago, so I may be wrong, but wasn't Bobbi's mental distress at this time a factor in her betrayal of the Avengers?

>>87119511
Nope, real anti rape poster at a university caused a bit on controversy last year.

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What do I say guys?

What is she talking about?

>>87119823

Phantom Rider was an insane creepy stalker obsessed with her.

>>87119866
No I mean who did he kill?

>>87119823
Reply with:
>I hope you get a job at DC where you can write Batwoman killing the Joker.

>>87116898
Ever since women have been able to have free time and chose what to do with it, men have pointed out that they never stop acting like children.
4 centuries of social observations show that women just want to be irresponsible and unaccountable forever.

>>87119939
what does that have to do with anything?

>>87119976
>men have pointed out that they never stop acting like children

he said on the board where men choose to spend their free time discussing children's cartoons

>>87119500
Carol
Clint
Peter
Wanda

>>87119939
Is is bad if I like that idea?
Not Chelsea Cain writing of course, but Batwoman killing Joker.

I kind of like the idea of a military/cop just saying "I've had enough of this bullshit" and putting a couple of 9mms in the Joker's brain.

>>87120036
I would be fine with Snapper Carr permanently killing the Joker

>>87120027
Yes, and most of us are considered social outcasts because of it.

>>87117187
Kate Leth fucked a married man with cancer and then complained that people weren't giving her condolences when he died.

>>87120036
Read Kingdom Come then.

>>87120028
Pym.

>>87119823
Delete your twitter and stop being a faggot,

>>87119500
It's his fault.

>>87119976

What frustrates me is that we see so many examples of this time and time again. And then everyone says "WELL NOT ALL WIMMIN"


I'm just like, dude, yeah, not all women are like that but goddamn are a lot of them like it. They truly do act childish. Ever notice when you argue with them and make a good point that they absolutely CAN'T refute, they'll just resort to name calling and other shit that doesn't refute your points? I'm not saying guys don't do it either, but it always feels like it's easier to get a guy to agree with your points, especially if you have shit that backs it up. But with most women, you might as well be talking to a brick wall.

This is especially apparent when women are caught cheating. They make up all sorts of shit to justify their actions and no matter what you say to them, they won't concede that they were 100% in the wrong. Video related to this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cwQVHQ5wSY the girl in the video talks about how she was "depressed" which is why she cheated. It's a laughable excuse and it's clearly meant to make her unaccountable for her actions and make it seem like she had no control over what she was doing.

>>87120019
She turned is saying Phantom's death is justified because the Rider killed some people and was stalking Mocking Bird. She doesn't understand the idea of a "no kill rule" and what it means for a character.

Everyone in the Batfam has the same no kill rule, because of "much slippery slope". That is the Justification for why no one has killed the joker, hell a super hero killing the Joker is the basis of Kingdom Come and Injustice.

So, her not understanding why Bobbi's letting a villain die is a big deal for the character, combined with what would seem like apparent praise (I hope you get to write one of DCs biggest female characters), she would tweet back thanks, not getting that Batwoman killing the Joker would make her a a terrible person.

>>87117426
Makes me wish homosexuality was actually a choice.

>>87116921
I mean that's a no-prize way of retconning the retcon but there's no two ways about it. The writer outright stated that she retconned out the rape. She did not take your approach to it, what was said on the page is exactly what the author intended to convey.

>>87120135
The irony would be lost on her, anon.

>>87117141
Someone needs to ask her this. So Bobbi cheated on her husband, then allowed the man she was cheating on him with to drop to his death? Why?

>>87119652
>Bobbi is supposed to be the strong, empowered woman in this new scenario.

What's gonna make you feel stronger and more empowered than killing someone, though?
I mean, that's one of the big motivations for serial killers, isn't it? The rush of power you get as you watch the life slowly drain out of your victim's eyes?

>>87120135
>She turned is saying Phantom's death is justified because the Rider killed some people and was stalking Mocking Bird. She doesn't understand the idea of a "no kill rule" and what it means for a character.

every single avenger has killed

bobbi was an aim spy at some point and wh o knows what she did to earn their trust

i usually dont buy into tumblrspiracy shit but this board does seem to hate what was done to bobbi for no reason

LOL at the guy who said only women use insults when they don't have real arguements. Do you know where you are?

>>87120135

Bobbi still let him die! Your issue is with Englehart.

>>87119717
>Killed Phantom Rider
>Killed Vision

God, it's a good thing she died in hell, who knows how many heroes she'd have killed if she lived through the 90s.

>>87120163
That's the joke. You get to screenshot that she has no idea and post it on the internet forever.

I'm trying to make her say something incredibly stupid, work with me here people.

>>87120125
>Ever notice when you argue with them and make a good point that they absolutely CAN'T refute, they'll just resort to name calling and other shit that doesn't refute your points?
Even worse when it's factual evidence you can physically show them.
It's fucking infuriating.

>This is especially apparent when women are caught cheating
I've had friends cheated on and they only found out via "hacking into" lmao their facebooks/whatever because they knew something was up and found the proof for themselves.
Then chicks will try and turn it around as "you shouldn't have been going through my stuff, you're worse than hitler" etc.
It makes no sense.

>>87118299
You're not black, black don't know how to read.

>>87120219
>LOL at the guy who said only women use insults when they don't have real arguements.
He didn't say that at all.

>>87120125
>I'm not saying guys don't do it either

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> I'm a feminist, which means I am the standard bearer of what is equal and fair to men and women represented in entertainment. If something doesn't meet my ever vague but ever real marks at being feminist, it's trash that must be removed.
> This superhero owned by Disney is an adulteress who murders the men she fucks behind her husband's back.

This is such a fun year.

>>87120027
>he said on the board where men choose to spend their free time discussing children's cartoons
Yeah, and we're rejects as a result.
With women it's lauded as how they're allowed and even supposed to act.
Fuck off, faggot.

>>87120236
>"you shouldn't have been going through my stuff, you're worse than hitler"
Wasn't Beyonce just praised for datamining JayZ and writing an album about it?

>>87119552
>this piece of terrible writing is intentional and not bad because the writer is a hack
Fuck off.

>>87120225
Go for it, anon.
I don't have a twitter and I'm not going to make one just for this, but I'm sure some faggot here will.

>>87120208
>for no reason
HA

>>87118299

They're not "allowed". They can just do it, even if you don't like it. Because who the fuck are you?

>>87120304
I have no idea for several reasons, the main two being that I don't care about what celebrities do and I don't care about what niggers do.

I would not be surprised if this was the case, however.

>>87120305

>its shit writing just because i dont like the direction the char is being taken even if it has precedence in the MU

specially in the bendis era where retcons have MAJORLY fucked over certain chars, this is small potatoes

>>87120315
>HA

nice argument. are you a woman?

>>87120192
>that's one of the big motivations for serial killers, isn't it?
That makes me want to make Bobbi Marvel's equivalent of Dexter going after Z-listers.

>>87120365
>it's not shit writing despite all the evidence to the contrary and totally excusable because other hacks do it
Shit troll, this is the last (You) you're getting from me.

>>87120304

She wrote about him cheating on her and her processing it and staying with him, among other things. I don't think they went into how she found out?? But jay z cheating was like in tabloids and shit.

>>87120027
And realize we're less valuable because of it.
Women don't, they actually demand their childish ways be threated as a possitive trait.

>>87120412

its big2 comics. there is no great writing. the best you can hope for is passable, and that is what it was

>disagreeing with your hugbox makes me a troll

you really need a ticker skin if you want to discuss shit on the internet

>>87120365
>nice argument. are you a woman?
My point was that it's not for "no reason"
Anyone with half a brain could see that.

>>87120471
>there is no great writing. the best you can hope for is passable, and that is what it was
So you don't actually read comics?
Good to know.

>>87120125
An uncle put his wife in a mental asylum because she cheated on him and tried to make up a mental illness to cover it up then faked a suicide attempt. He followed in her game rather than divorce and got to keep his stuff and kids while not having to deal with her crap anymore.

>>87120471
I've seen better trolls on /b/ this is how embarrassing you are.

>>87120487
>My point was that it's not for "no reason"

your point is wrong. it was an already morally compromised char (even if she had killed him because of the rape).

>So you don't actually read comics?

and you only read big 2 and believe there is great writing on them right now?

good to know

>>87120521

its sad you revert to the exact same sjw rhetoric that makes tumblr and twitter cancer

"if you disagree with me you are a troll!!"

do you dye your hair red btw?

>>87120580
Go on, shitpost some more.

>>87120542
>your point is wrong.
So everyone on this entire board, even if they've not voiced their opinion on the matter, hates it for no reason at all whatsoever?
I'm correct, nigger.
People have voiced their reasons throughout the thread and you're just fucking stupid.

>and you only read big 2 and believe there is great writing on them right now?
No, I read a lot of everything and know there can and has been good writing in it all.
Just because they're super heroes doesn't mean a good writer is suddenly shit, you dense fuck.
inb4 "that's not what I said" because yeah, it fucking is.

>>87120471
Turning rape into consensual sex is a new low for Marvel or DC.

>>87116898
That sounds like Twilight. And a whole slew of other "popular" women fiction.

So women's popular wish fulfillment is do nothing and everything just works best for them. LOL.

>>87120619
The worst part is, it could've been a decent story and a riff on "rape and revenge" genre, had the writer been an intelligent person writing MC as a villain instead of a feminist triggered by rape and retconning it in the dumbest manner possible while pretending that MC is a good person.

>>87120065
>Snapper Carr goes to Jokers cell and just keeps snapping for days on end
>Joker is later found hanging from a noose

Yes/No?

>>87120616
>So everyone on this entire board, even if they've not voiced their opinion on the matter, hates it for no reason at all whatsoever?

>truth is democratic process

nope.

>No, I read a lot of everything and know there can and has been good writing in it all.

not right now. the bar is low, specially in marvel

>>87120619
its a retcon. is it worse than turning iceman gay? no
it worse than the entire civil war 2 shit? no

>>87120656
It's classic princess syndrome.

>>87120706
>let me twist the words and ignore entire sentences
You're not even pretending you're not a troll.
In case if you are that retarded, grab the nearest noose.

>THIS TURD IS BETTER THAN THIS TURD
And the whole Iceman thing is nowhere near that much of a character assasination anyway.

>>87120706
>>truth is democratic process
That's not what I implied.

You said "this board does seem to hate what was done to bobbi for no reason"
If even one person, which there's been far more than that, have a reason, then you're wrong.
And you are.

>not right now.
Neither you nor I said that.
You said "there is no great writing"
You said there was and never has been.
And there fucking has been.
Just because it's shit now doesn't mean there's never been anything great.

>>87120706

> is it worse...?

Literally not an argument. Kill yourself.

>>87120706
Multiple things can be shit at once, anon

>>87120787
>you said never has been

see >>87120542. i even had too add the NOW clause because i knew you would try to use semantics to get out of this. but now you cant

because this is what happens you cant argue your way out of this using critical analysisof bobbi's char, a morally compromised char was retconned into being a bit more morally compromised which for some reason triggered you...

(the reason is that it was done by a writer you dont like)

>>87120801
>say X is a new low
>no its not
>NOT AN ARGUMENT

kek

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>>87116058
>might
>maybe
OR perhaps you could maybe not revise history in order to suit your preferences.

>>87117822
According the FBI, who collects all sorts of data and compiles it for the rest of the US government, more than 90% of all rape accusations are FALSE.

That's the FBI. Sure, they could be full of shit, but it seems that rape accusers are usually doing it to cover their own ass about something they did and is not inconvenient for them or to get revenge (female form of "SWATTING"). Again, the FBI.

So learn. Maybe outside the US is a different story. In the US? The vast majority of the men the police investigate for rape turn out to be innocent of the charge. But it still destroys their life just getting accused of it. Which is why it is a favorite female "SWAT".

>>87120855
>see >>87120542.
>it was an already morally compromised char
But that wasn't my reason why it's shit.
It's almost as if multiple people can have different opinions or something, weird huh?

>(the reason is that it was done by a writer you dont like)
I don't know the writer, I have no opinion about her other than that she clearly has no skill and doesn't know the character she's writing.

The reason is that I don't like retcons that make no sense.

>>87120706
>>87120855
Turning a rape victim getting revenge into a cheater killing her lover to cover up her affair is in fact worse than a bizarre coming out story and a Minority Report rehash

>>87116502
>"skeezy ex"
The actual phrase was "hinky". I remember it because of how fucking retarded it sounds in regards to a character with such a dark past for her.

>>87120947
Clint did nothing wrong.

So, can we interpret this as Marvel's women being lying bitches and that Purple Man is a gud boi and dindu nuffin?

>>87121076
Yes.

>>87116586
That's just Marvel making characters relatable, like always.

>>87120968
Source for figures?

Not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to have them for future internet arguments.

>>87120968
What FBI are you referring to?
90%? Are you mad?

>>87117426
Jake couldn't consent either.

Was Josie charged with rape?

>>87121076
Purple Man is literally a hero now if this is what marvel citizens have for women.

>>87121278
Of course not!
She's a womyn, you shitlord :^)

>>87121076
NuMarvel twist: Purple Man was gay all along.
He's some kind of a... Gay Purple Man

>>87121371
Purple Man raped Andreas von Strucker.

>>87121299
>Norman Osborn is actually a good guy and The Night Gwen Stacy died was him doing Peter a favor by saving him from an unhappy married future with a nagging wife and all the "crazy evil Osborn" scenes in the comics are just from Peter's POV