"The Greatest Graphic Novels of all Time" --- obviously

Putting Kirby and Sailor Moon seems like a joke. There's nothing wrong with either but they're hardly great enough to say "these are the two best mainstream comics of all time". Calling Fourth World a graphic novel is itself ridiculous, it obviously has nothing to do with that format.

>All this ugly indie "boo hoo look at my life" garbage
>Bone isn't even on the list

Fucks sake, these people need to get some goddamn taste.

>>87079218
boring
hipster
garbage
just ignore it all

>>87079218
I can vouch for the Los Bros Hernandez and Chris Ware stuff.

Maus is overated

>>87079444
>i-it doesn't have people in spandex punching each other so it's bad!!
kek

The list did feel made from a somewhat narrow point of view / list of interests.

Also no Sandman, no Watchmen, no Preacher, no Metalzoic, no Frank (I'm sure a collected edition ought to count), no Rice Boy (at least it's fun and doesn't take itself too seriously), and yes no Bone either!

Tfw i'm so pleb, i've only read maus, kirby and Crumb's Genesis. I'm really interested in that one he describes as cursed/evil.

inb4 /co/ gets hella mad at one dude's opinion

>>87079455

Cool, thanks co/mrade. Will put those on my list of things to check out.

>>87079494
you are being ridiculous, look at those poorly drawn boring slice of life shits and tell me with a straight face they're good good
get a grip you insipid cunt

>>87079547
Oh right, and Crumb's Genesis, that's a good one too.

Especially if you like fat asses

I have never felt any real emotional connection to Los Bros art even though I know they're amazing, beautiful etc. I think not reading Xaime's in real time hurts too.

Super interested in that one Beto book he mentions, I didn't know he ever got self aware/referential with Luba and her family

>>87079550
>this is the literacy of your average cape reader

>>87079545

Pim & Francie: The Golden Bear Days by Al Columbia?

"Pim & Francie is an art-object that seems so thick and teeming with evil that it corrupts the world around it."

I agree, sounds like it might be worth checking out.

>>87079547
Don't read the fucking Love Bunglers dude, it's literally the pay off to a decade long character relationship
It's like starting off with the final chapter of a book, you need to read the first love and rockets stories
>>87079545
>>87079607
It's been OOP for awhile but Fanta just announced a reprint which should come next year, it's one of the cooler things around regarding art books

Looks like a decent list.

I really, REALLY enjoy the #2 pick, so here's a link:
https://www.mediafire.com/?0m4134xqn5w44

The issue in question is #20, but you can start reading as early as #15 for full context.

Also, Love & Rockets is a HUGE piece of work. I recommend it wholeheartedly, but "Love Bunglers" and "High Soft Lisp" aren't really my favorites. In fact, I think the protagonist of High Soft Lisp is one of the more boring characters of L&R. But anyway, here's a link for that whole series if you want to give it a shot.

Start with "Maggie the Mechanic" for Xaime's L&R and start with "Heartbreak Soup" for Beto's L&R.
https://www.mediafire.com/?uahj039c3aup2

>>87079570

Duly noted, thanks!

Not entirely irrelevant to my interests, no....

>>87079690
It is literally just genesis drawn a a comic though, he doesn't change anything when it comes to the text so unless you want to read the book of genesis

>>87079607
To be fair every entry is filled with hyperbole.

>>87079646

Thanks for the advice! Will sort out reading Love & Rockets in order, had heard good things about it but never got round to finding it.

Will see if I can get hold of that reprint too.

>>87079674

That is inordinately kind of you and I really appreciate it! Always wanted to check out Chris Ware's work too. Thanks dude!

>>87079720

I'll have a look at it anyway, but thanks for the heads-up.

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>>87079674
More links.

If you're a 4chan veteran then you've already encountered Mat Brinkman at least once, even if you didn't realize it until now (just like how everyone on 4chan is familiar with Matt Furie's Pepe, even if nobody has read Boy's Club).

Michael Deforge's Ant Colony is really good. I read it when it was free and online. Now it's not free or online. Oh well.

David B. is good, but I haven't read The Armed Garden, I've only read Epileptic. Now you can read it too.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/02n7mxyb785zv67/Epileptic+%28David+B%29.cbr

Even though "Fun Home" won the Tony Awards, I actually like the sequel "Are You My Mother" even more. Now you can read both.

Alison Bechdel's Fun Home
http://www.mediafire.com/?lh9mdu9qny0ebci/

Alison Bechdel's Are You My Mother?
http://www.mediafire.com/?jgiw3hmj7o3r3xa/

I haven't read Louis Riel, but Chester Brown is fantastic. I recommend his anthology series, Yummy Fur, or you can jump straight to the meat with the "The Playboy" and "I Never Liked You" collections. Also, there's "Paying For It", a chronicle of his adult experiences with paying prostitutes for sex after he gave up on pursuing a girlfriend.

I haven't read Footnotes in Gaza, but Joe Sacco's Palestine was pretty good. Here's a storytime that should still work.
http://desuarchive.org/co/thread/81467129/
http://desuarchive.org/co/thread/81507538/

>>87080161

>dat Sacco storytime

Clutch. I wanted to read Palestine first anyway.

>>87080161
Palestine is probably his worst imo,it's good but he only got better when it came to journalistic comics

>>87080161

Thanks for the recs and the links too, I appreciate both! I'm going to read the storytime next.

Cheers co/nsiderate anon!

>>87080161

*clicks thumbnail* Oh dear, poor Skeleton Jelly!

What's that from / who's it by?

>>87080726
Mat Brinkman's Multiforce

There's more to the story, but it's a difficult comic to scan.

Have some videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXRRhRlKW3s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5o8oe-vzIE

>>87080819

Haha, those are BRILLIANT dude!

(Poor S-Jel, he seems a bit too unworldly for such a cruel environment.)

...I must now track down Multiforce. :-)

Not a bad list, but it's intentionally "literary"/no movie comics, which is why some of the token entries feel out of place (Kirby, Sailor Moon).
>Michael DeForge
awesome
>Moto Hagio
As far as a "token" manga/shojo pick, not bad. Really pretty, dreamy linework.
>Crumb
A legend. Genesis is worth a read. It's surprisingly humanizing.
>Clowes
decent enough, though for my "annoyingly pristine indie graphic novelist" fix I usually turn to
>Chris Ware
pic realted
>Chareles Bruns / Black Hole
It's a pretty decent "puberty is totally like a curse" story.
>Love and Rockets
I hate it, but it looks proficient and other people rave about it, so whatever.

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>>87082205
>>87082205

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>>87082205
>>87082229
Ivan Brunetti on imitating Chris Ware

>>87079218
Sean's taste is pretty close to my taste so I even though that wouldn't be my list I do hold everything there in high regard.

At the very least this is essential reading for anyone who has any interest in comics.

>>87082205

Thanks!

>>87082785

also thanks!

>graphic novel

I hate this term so much. They're comics. It's not a dirty word.

>>87084698
Unless you also get upset when people say "trade paperback", you're an idiot.

>>87084792
Those aren't even equivalent. Trade paperback is fine to differentiate between a floppy and a collection of issues.

>>87085146
And "graphic novel" means that it has a spine (so it's not a floppy) but it's brand new material and not a collection of old material (so it's not a trade paperback).

Unfortunately, you are one of the people who misuse the term and create confusion over it. Please stop.

>>87085300
It's a comic. It's a long form comic, but it's just a comic. Graphic novel is something yuppies say because they don't want to dirty themselves saying they read comics. They want to pretend that if they call it a graphic novel it has more literary merit against the rest of the medium which is bullshit.

>>87085723
>It's a comic. It's a long form comic, but it's just a comic.
Exactly, so you shouldn't say "trade paperback". After all, it's just a comic. You hypocrite.

>Graphic novel is something yuppies say because they don't want to dirty themselves saying they read comics. They want to pretend that if they call it a graphic novel it has more literary merit against the rest of the medium which is bullshit.
That's how YOU use "graphic novel" because you refuse to use the term correctly.

>>87085723

Probably the same people who think mainstream mimetic fiction (which they call "Literature" with a capital L, and which is a genre in itself with its own conventions) is superior to "genre" fiction and that reading it it makes them superior (as opposed to naturally preferring it and reading it for that reason, which is fine).

On the topic of recommendations, am currently reading _Frank_ by Jim Woodring (meant to open Chris Ware but clicked the wrong file) and would greatly appreciate any more books in that vein.

(Also why does Captcha have such a hardon for store fronts? Context hard for robots to imitate, or it REALLY wants someone to take it shopping?)

>>87085901
Saying a trade paperback isn't denying it's a comic, you fucking moron. It's clarifying between a single issue comic and a collected edition comic. "Graphic novel" is a denial of it being a comic. It's associating the piece with an entirely different medium.

You're probably one of those pseudo-intellectual fucks who makes a stink about calling some things a film vs. a movie.

>>87086074
Exactly. Pretentious nitwits who treat taste as a fashion accessory. You can't have a conversation with these people because they have their nose up to you.

>>87086074
t. fantasy pleb

>>87086164
Don't forget to read "Congress of the Animals" and "Fran" too. In whatever order you prefer. They're cyclical stories, the ending of each leads into the beginning of the other.

https://www.mediafire.com/?ypzgyx48fh1r7

>>87086189
>Saying a trade paperback isn't denying it's a comic, you fucking moron
Saying it's a "graphic novel" isn't denying that it's a comic. Unless you're using the term incorrectly, which is what you do.

>It's clarifying between a single issue comic and a collected edition comic.
"Graphic novel" clarifies that it's a comic which isn't a single issue and isn't a collected edition. Start using it correctly.


Do you know why other people use the term incorrectly? Because it's fucking YOU who legitimizes the pretentious hipster usage of "graphic novel". YOU spend all your time whining about the incorrect usage of the term, and you never tell people to use the correct definition. YOU are the one legitimizing the very shit you supposedly fight against.

People aren't going to stop using "graphic novel" incorrectly if you throw a fit every time it's used. They're going to see that the rest of the world uses the term despite your protestations, so they're going to understand that you're a lone contrarian and ignore you.

People are only going to stop using it incorrectly if you take the time to help them understand that they're using the term incorrectly, but that there is a correct usage too.

Get over yourself. Be a part of the solution, not a part of the problem.

>>87079218
>Anyone read any of these?
Well from the list i have read DeForge, Hagio, Crumb, David B., Clowes, Hernandez bros, Chester Brown, Yokoyama, and Joe Sacco, like them all to varying degrees with David B. and the Hernandez probably as my favorites from the list, but as overall they all pretty good and consistent authors.

>>87086310

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, thanks for proving our point for us.

>>87086428

Oooh, neat! Thank you very much indeed!

>>87086438

Thanks! Going to copy-paste all the advice from here once this thread shuffles off this mortal coil, am anticipating a lot of fun checking all these out.

>>87086428

Had heard of "Congress of the Animals" but it had quite slipped my mind, so thanks for the reminder (and the links dude!) and "Fran" is now on the list...it's Woodring night!

OP's list looks like they read what was available in their local library in the "Adult Graphic Novel" section, while purposefully ignoring anything in the "Kids Comic Section".

That, or Fourth World and Sailor Moon were just concessions to deny anyone who says they don't care about capes or manga.

It's not bad but it's certainly a bit biased.

>>87079340
>Calling Fourth World a graphic novel is itself ridiculous, it obviously has nothing to do with that format.
Kirby wrote Fourth World with the express intention of collecting them in what would have been early, proto-graphic novels. They would have been among the first in comics if DC hadn't reined in his ambitions so much.

>no Watchmen
Ugh.

>>87088904
The writer said it and TDKR would have been in a top 50.

>>87079218
>they put serial released comics in a GN list
>there are people in this thread suggesting serial released comics as replacement picks for the GN list
Can we just... not? Just stop. If you really don't know the difference between a trade and a GN, just don't bother.

>>87079218
No Bone.
No Hellboy.
No Usagi Yojimbo.
No Sandman.
No Incal.
No Y the Last Man.
No El Eternauta.
No Cerebus.

But hey, Sailor Moon! Why not Dragon Ball?

Yeah, fuck that list. It's not even about little known "hipster" titles, some of those are actually good, it's about putting them above titles which actually matter or acomplished something.

>>87089939
>it's about putting them above titles which actually matter or acomplished something
And aren't graphic novels.

>>87089939
Do you not understand what a graphic novel is? None of those apply.

>>87089959
Just like Saulor Moon and Kirby's work, which are on the list. But that's beside the point.

If you are such a smartass, point me to the "Best Graphic Novel" category at Eisner's awards.

In fact, a lot of those so called GN were first serialized. Like Watchmen. And Crumb's work. And more ibdie stuff than you imagine.

Also, still no Incal. Motherfucking INCAL. Fuck. That. List.

>>87090026
You are free to point me to the "Best Graphic Novel" category at Eisner Awards. You know, the awards given by people who actually give a shit and know their shit about comics. Go on. Find it. I'll wait.

GN is a fancy name for a thick comic that tells a more or less complete story. It does not matter how the story was created, in parts or at once. Even a simple multi part story from a long run of, for example, Batman, can be turned into a "graphic novel" and sold as a complete self contained story.

>>87090054
>Just like Saulor Moon and Kirby's work, which are on the list. But that's beside the point.
If you want an explanation for Kirby, consider >>87086760.

>If you are such a smartass, point me to the "Best Graphic Novel" category at Eisner's awards.
Graphic novels are in the "Best Graphic Album (New)" and "Best Graphic Album (Reprint)" categories at the Eisners. How embarrassing for you.

>In fact, a lot of those so called GN were first serialized. Like Watchmen. And Crumb's work. And more ibdie stuff than you imagine.
Watchmen isn't in the OP list. And the Crumb entry was an OGN, not a collection of his serialized work.

>Also, still no Incal. Motherfucking INCAL. Fuck. That. List.
Not a graphic novel.

>>87089939
It's all opinions, my man. Have you even read the stuff on that list?

Out of that list, I've read
>Louis Riel
>Footnotes in Gaza
>Maus

All were pretty good, but the list REALLY lacks in terms of international (European, Canadian, etc.) releases.

Also 4th World and Sailor Moon aren't fucking graphic novels and picking trash like SM as the only representative of Japan comics is bordering on insulting when there's a fuckton of better manga out there (some of which actually ARE graphic novels, even!)

>>87089517
TDKR doesn't deserve to be even on a top 100, it's fucking garbage and only served to inspire more garbage, even in today with turds like BvS

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>>87090113
>You know, the awards given by people who actually give a shit and know their shit about comics.
You're thinking of the Ignatz Awards. The Eisners are the joke awards. It doesn't matter though because you're wrong anyway.

And you won't even have the courage to apologize.

>>87089939
>No El Eternauta.
Are we pretending that this is a critically acclaimed masterpiece that's stood the test of time, or are we all just basing it off Amazon reviews and how quickly it sold out?

I know very few people that have actually read it, but quite a few that own it because it looks good on their shelf.

Not to insult it by any means, but it's meteoric rise in popularity over the past year is really strange and it's silly to place it alongside titles that have been consistently topping sales for the last two decades.

>>87090253
oooooh, the last book in that pic, "Soldier's Heart" is really good. Kind of similar to Maus in the sense that it looks at how events in WWII affected not only the people involved, but their children. I like the alot of art, especially the spreads, in the book.

>>87090253
Sam Zabel and the Magic Pen is fucking rad

>>87079218
>Chuck Burns

Fuck me. The art is great, but once you're in your mid 20s, it's so hard to take the teenage angst and identity crises seriously. Pretty sure he's on there because his art is is wonderful and plays the grotesque like no one else, and also because he's edgy as fuck to normies.
Go read some Burroughs, and then Burns' writing becomes trivial and milquetoast.


>Putting Fourth World Omnibus on the list when it is out of print and prohibitively expensive

Fuck you DC, reprint that shit.
Make it adequately available digitally!
So far, I can only get single issues of Forever People on Comixology. The availability of New Gods or Mister Miracle is fucked.

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>>87079550
>Calls: Crumb, Sacco, Deforge, Ware, Burns, Hancewiz and Los Bros poor artists
>Tells someone else to get a grip

>>87090054
>muh Incal was the most influential
It's a used condom at this point, and possibly the least interesting example of Moebius' art, and the most masturbatory example of Jodorowsky's writing.

Metabarons is infinitely better comic.

>>87090255
>El Eternauta.
>Originally serialized between 1957 and 1959 in Hora Cero Semanal, El Eternauta, or The Eternaut, told the story of Juan Salvo, a man displaced in time by an encounter with an alien device. In weekly strips, Juan and his family struggled to uncover the mystery of an awesome snow that fell randomly, killing anyone who came in contact with it. This journey leads to a conflict between humans and aliens, and which ultimately results in Juan’s space-time detachment. A sense of hope underlies the series, and it can be read as the struggle of the everyman to shirk off the yoke of oppression and to circumvent the cycle of slavery that war begets. Salvo is, after all, Spanish for “Save.” He is a savior, and the series’ writer explicitly intended for the character to be a stand-in, an allegorical everyman. The series served, at its heart, as a polemic about the need to dissolve Cold War animosity and to shirk military concerns outweighing democratic ones. The resilience of the people wins the day, not overwhelming military force. But, in a cold twist of irony, The Eternaut’s writer, Héctor Germán Oesterheld, hasn’t been seen since 1977.

>Oesterheld and his four daughters joined the rebel group the Monteneros, and he continued to produce some work while in hiding, but it is believed that in 1979 he and his entire family were eliminated by the ruling government.

>ctrl + f
>Blankets
>0 results
fuck you /co/

I've cleared entire library graphic novel sections of their indie collections and I've only seen maybe 5-10 of those. That said, I'd love to read all of it.

>>87090665
Blankets was a good read but I don't know about "best".

>>87090665
Calling Blankets the best of all time is like calling Indiana Jones 1 the best film of all time

>>87090253
Apologize for what? Can you circle where it does say "Graphic Novel" in that picture? It's a stupid term used by self pretentious assholes who pretend that thick one shot comics are a different animal than those serialized (Hellboy, Asterix) or long lasting monthly ongoings (X-Men, Hellblazer) are.

>>87090255
Last year was the first time it was official released in English. That's why it's gotten popular over the past year. I got my Spanish edition sitting on my shelf, but I've considered getting the English edition to see how the translation is.

This is interesting given that I've actually met Gloeckner in person. She seemed nice enough but a little odd, if I'm being honest.

>>87090943
She had a full on sexual relationship with adults (one of whom was her moms boyfriend) at the age of 15
What were you expecting?

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>>87079674
Love Bunglers is amazing to read after you've read all of Jaime's previous Locas work. Starting with it or reading it after only reading a small amount of the earlier stuff wouldn't have the same effect.

I do love me some lists with things I haven't heard of and not just the usual suspects. Thanks, OP!

>>87090875
That's a silly comparison. There's absolutely a difference between a series and a novel intended to be self-contained, and the ability to isolate and publish a single arc from a longer series as a novel doesn't negate that. "One shot comic" isn't any better or more descriptive a phrase than "graphic novel", it's just your choice to use it.

Comic is a poorly chosen name for the medium, anyway. There's no fault in trying to get away from that.

>>87090875
>Apologize for what?
You should apologize for your unnecessary rudeness. This discussion really doesn't warrant your current level of aggression.

>>87091073
>Comic is a poorly chosen name for the medium, anyway. There's no fault in trying to get away from that.
Ok, thanks for confirming your pretentious attitude. Fuck off.

>>87091119
Can you get a trip, please?

>Ant Colony by Michael DeForge
excellent, definitely read it

>The Book of Genesis Illustrated by Robert Crumb
read it if you like crumb's art

>Footnotes in Gaza by Joe Sacco
excellent, read it

>Jimmy Corrigan: The Smartest Kid on Earth by Chris Ware
probably the best comic on this list 2bh

>Jordan Wellington Lint: The ACME Novelty Library 20 by Chris Ware
this is up there too

the rest are either bad or just ones i have never heard of

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>>87079550
>poorly drawn
LOL

>>87091119
Comic implies something is comedic about the content of any given story in the medium. It's not accurate. Imagine a world where movies are called tragics - it'd be silly.

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>>87091165
hahaha

>>87091093
You're on 4chan pal, don't co!e here expecting anything but rudeness

>>87089939
>Bone
boring childs story
>Hellboy
its good but nobody who knows their shit will call it the best
>Usagi Yohimbo
its good but nobody who knows their shit will call it the best
>Sandman
whenever someone tries to say sandman is a great comic book work you know they dont understand the medium, the biggest pleb flag i have ever seen
>Y the Last Man
its good but nobody who knows their shit will call it the best
>El Eternauta
has only been available in english for a short amount of time so the guy who made the list probably hasnt read it
>Cerebus
no shit cerebus has massive chunks where it is shit and the best bits are still not a masterpiece

>>87090875
>film is a stupid term used by "self pretentious" (what the fuck does this mean hahaha) assholes who pretend that long one shot tvs are a different animal than those serialized (breaking bad, twin peaks) or long lasting ongoing series (neighbours, the simpsons) are.

>>87091196
Rudeness is only warranted when you're right. You should apologize for being rude when you're wrong.
>Wah, why is Watchmen in the OP link's list? (It's not.)
>Waah, why is the Crumb comic a collection of his other comics?? (It's not.)
>Waaah, why do you care about graphic novels when the Eisners don't??? (They do.)
>Waaaah, it doesn't count as a graphic novel if they call it a graphic "album"!!!! (Quite wrong.)
>Waaaaah, you're all a bunch of pretentious assholes!!!!! (Go look in a mirror.)

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Eternaut rip when?

I barely know any of those books on that list, and have read even less. I do want to pick up more Julie Doucet though after reading My Most Secret Desire and Bechdel's Are You My Mother? after reading Fun Home.

>>87079720
I picked up Crumb's Genesis for a few bucks a few years back. Boring as shit to read for me, but the art is worth keeping alone. He did fantastic work there, so I suggest it even though I'll never read it again, just look at it.

>>87091219
I think that stick up your ass is clouding your judgement, friend.

>>87085300
Except the list in OP also has Kirby's Fourth World in it. Get your head out of your ass, the term graphic novel was in this case(like most) used to appear more mature.

>>87086760
>Kirby wrote Fourth World with the express intention of collecting them in what would have been early, proto-graphic novels.
And even when DC DID eventually collect them, it was either in black & white or collated across four volumes, forcing anyone only interested in SOME of those titles to buy EVERY volume.

>>87079521
>Metalzoic
the pat mills thing about the robo gorilla? good taste man

>>87090253
huh tj and amal got an esiner.thats surprising. It wasn't bad but safe in a lot of ways where it could have gone somewhere else. still it deserves it more than others on the list.

>>87092702
Right, they definitely fucked up. On one hand though, it is nice that you can read them in production order (I say this as someone who's autistically read Marvel's entire silver age and halfway into it's bronze), but the stories don't really benefit from that. Add to that the fact that certain volumes sold out, making the rest useless if you weren't prepared to drop a small fortune back when inferior bindings were the norm for DC, and it's no wonder it didn't get the re-recognition it deserved.

Hopefully with Kirby's anniversary coming up, we get something.

>>87090927
Late reply, but yeah. I know it's been around for a while, but putting it on Essential Reading lists when it's been in relative obscurity for the better part of its life is kind of jumping the gun for the sake of seeming like a literari. It's the A Brief History of Time of comic books - looks good on the coffee table but it seems most haven't even read it. That's the part that's rubbing me.

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>>87090255
It's solid, Oesterheld is an excellent scenarist and Lopez a good artist, and it was a big success in europe at the time (maybe elsewhere too, but I don't know about the south american markets of the 60s)

>>87090548
>the most masturbatory example of Jodorowsky's writing.
You haven't read Megalex. The Incal isn't perfect, but it's free of most of Jodo's usual flaws until the last two albums.
Besides Incal and the Metabarons are completely different works. Incal is about an average joe fighting destiny and the old spiritual world rebelling against technology, while Metabarons is a saga about legacy and tradition.

I also notice you don't attack the quality of the work directly but simply say that the authors have done better things elsewhere; that makes for poor reviews.

>>87091235
Films are supposed to be self-contained works with different format constraints than series*.
A lot of graphic novels are divided into chapters (Sam Zabel and the Magic Pen has clear separations between each chapter, with each scene being something like 15 pages long iirc) or began as serialized works in newspapers or magazines (Pratt's Ballad of the Salty Sea, for example). If you accept those as graphic novels you have to accept any standard european one-shot in that category (same kind of publication), then a lot of cape miniseries (same format), and finally it's open door to everything.
Graphic novel is not a coherent category. There is no clear definition and I see it used mainly as a marketing argument rather than an attempt at classification.

*Of course some works cross the line, like movies being composed of a dozen independant playets (a lot of the Monty Python movies), or mini-series like QB VII, but comics hardly have such a frontier.