Poking a bee's nest here, but I finally saw Dawn of Justice,

>>86814991

Plebs too stupid to understand subtext

>>86814991
For me personally
He shouldn't have to have the world trust him to believe in and love what he's doing
Clark shouldn't have to question being superman

>>86815025

>He shouldn't have to have the world trust him to believe in and love what he's doing

In the movie he momentarily doubted his role and actions as Superman because he thought that him being Superman in the open was unfortunately ending up hurting and scaring people.

He did less because he lost confidence and more because he thought it would be the best for everyone. Of course, he was wrong because Pa Ghost taught him that you've to try anyway and the bad stuffs were all Lex schemes to discredit him.

>>86814991
>but the world doesn't trust him, and it eventually upsets him.

Comics Superman would do the job with a smile on his face no matter how people treated him because he's not a sensitive babyman and because he ENJOYS THE JOB ITSELF.

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>>86814991
Plebs gonna pleb.

I'm with you though, the movie definitely made complete sense.

>>86814991
people who didn't see the movie, but had a keyboard

>>86815151

Explain Kingdom Come.

And in the movie Superman didn't wanted to see people getting hurt due to his actions, like in the African massacre, and thought that going away he'd do the right thing. Also that whole sabbatical thing was like... something of hours and then he came back.

>>86815025
>Clark shouldn't have to question being Superman
I don't agree with that statement and I loathe BvS.
>>86815018
The text is what sucks though, and the subtext doesn't save it.
Lex's plan is contrived and nonsensical and his motivations are flimsy at best.
Clark reads as an emotionally stunted man-baby.
Bruce is a psychopath who needs to be stopped.

>>86815352

>Lex's plan is contrived and nonsensical and his motivations are flimsy at best.

How can Lex's plans be contrived when he changes them to fit the situation and why was his motivations flimsy when he made obvious that he hated Superman due to his huge ego?

>>86815025
That is something you would personally prefer not to see happen in a version of Superman, that is fine, but why is that a invalid take on the character for other viewers besides yourself?

>>86815018
I love the idea that if you don't get this god awful movie, you're somehow the stupid one.

>>86815201
Kingdom Come literally has Superman losing his faith in humanity after his wife is murdered and the world rejects his ways for a new generation that welcomes brutality with open arms.

And he still comes back to inspire everyone regardless.

But then again, why would I ever expect anyone on /co/ to actually read the comics.

>>86815151
But that's false. Superman doesnt smiles around ewad people you dumbass.

>>86815352
>Clark reads as an emotionally stunted man-baby.
Why? He had moments of immaturity in Mos with the truck smashing which makes sense for someone who has had to take abuse for 33 years.
>Bruce is a psychopath who needs to be stopped.
No he is a obsessed righteous man who has been broken down by 20 years of not making a damn bit of difference & being betrayed many times as his "how many stayed that way?" line suggest.

>>86815459
Plebs get confused, they are used to get the motivations of the characters spoonfeed to them, so when a guy like luthor that lies all the time appears they get confused. As for the plans yeah, the whole deal was that luthor could set more than one plan in movement and adapt to the situation.

>>86815514
And this superman NEVER loses his faith on people and sacrifices himself TWICE in the movie

>>86815514
And the DCEU is about Superman trying to better a world that is already inherently paranoid, violent and vile from the get go instead of everything going perfectly and easy from the get go.
Why in the FUCK is having Superman struggle in the face of humanities overwhelming flaws a bad thing???

>>86815514

Superman in Kingdom Come felt unwanted and betrayed by humanity, and fucked off to live in isolation FOR GODDAMN YEARS!

Superman in BvS felt that his presence and actions was hurting more than helping and thought that by going away he'd help more. His sabbatical leave took LESS THAN A WEEK.

>>86815151
New earth superman has been in the job for decades, DCEU supes has been on it for 18 months. Also, like any social worker or firefighter, the burden of the job could overwhelm superman, even if he does it out of complete vocation. The important thing is that he manages to pick himself up at the end. Just look at Kingdom Come, for example (I know it's not cannon, but it's a great example of superman trying to stay true to himself in a time of crisis, almost loosing it at his darkest moment, and putting himself together and become true to himself by the end)

>>86815586
They don't want superman having to struggle. Since the movies focus on his hardships it means he never has good times or victories in theri minds

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>>86814991
>its another snyder circle jerk/echo chamber that will have 250 plus posts with about 40 posters episode
just what /co/ needs

Superman looked more annoyed than anything else that everybody died

It also didn't help that the movies consistently portrayed Superman as an idiot. He literally only wins in MoS because he just existed on Earth for a bit longer than Zod and then 'wins' in BvS because Batman just so happened to create something that could kill Doomsday and their new friend just so happened to have a lasso capable of restraining Doomsday and he fucking died after.

>>86815471
I mean, there are legitimate reasons to dislike it, but it bad poorly written is not one of them.

You ARE an idiot if you confused at any time during the film.

>>86815673

>He literally only wins in MoS because he just existed on Earth for a bit longer than Zod

He worked with the military and came up with the plan to take down the Black Zero ship using the Phantom Drive connection between the ships and his pod.

I'll give you BvS, though. Fair is fair.

>>86815668
>Any discussion is a circlejerk but only when it's people I disagree with

>>86814991
>Superman is frowning in picture you used
>the world doesn't trust him
>it eventually upsets him
You pretty much answered your own point.

Why would the world trust him? He's a distant, cold, silent, brooding, god-like alien who's battles have killed tens of thousands. He never talks to people, he never walks among them, he never just hangs out. All he does is hover over them and look like he's doing his chores while occasionally saving people. They have every right to fear him.

A REAL Superman wouldn't run away from the people. He'd spend every moment he could trying to gain their trust by showing him that he's really just a normal person with super powers. He'd talk to people on the street, he'd help old ladies with their shopping or save a kids cat out of a tree. He'd make visits to hospitals, orphanages and veterans.

Superman is not supposed to be a mopey, unlikable sad-sack.

>>86817489
So Humanity is shallow as fuck and despite doing everything to help us we don't trust him because he doesn't smile but somehow Superman is the unlikeable one?

>>86814991
The problem is not necessarily that he isn't heroic, it's that he has the agency of a tribble.

People forget that a lot of old Superman stories were him DOING things, and working out how to defeat super-dimensional imps or whatever. If things are DONE to him he just looks like a shmuck.

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>>86814991
It's been gone over a million times, anon, and people either refuse to get it, or just have such a fundamentally rigid view of Superman that they refuse to acknowledge a different take on the character. Personally, I liked it. I love all takes on Superman (mostly), and while I have love for the '78 movie, there's no conflict there. Nothing is learned, nothing is gained, and there are no stakes. Superman learns, ostensibly that he can't save his father's life, and then later loses Lois in similar circumstances, but just decides to go back in time and save her anyway. There is a thin strand of a theme here when Jor-El warns him not to tamper with the past throughout the movie, but then he does it and, welp, no consequences! Turns out Superman CAN fix everything! Everyone loves him and that's that.

Meanwhile, Snyder Superman faces a lot of opposition from many different forces. He is judged harshly, even by those who are on his side. He can't seem to win for trying, and yet he loves his planet and its inhabitants so much that he is willing to give his life for it, even still. It makes him seem like a much more powerful character, even if he stumbles.

Unfortunately, in these cynical times, there is a serious demand for simplistic nostalgia, and a good number of fans basically only want a perfect Superman who is flawless and always wins, despite that being what people criticized about him for decades. It's that way with a lot of media now. Nobody wants anything new, or risky, or different. They want safe, soothing fanservice. Just look at Force Awakens...

>>86815154
That kind of reminds me of this bitchin' Man of Steel poster.

>>86815151
>would do the job with a smile
Please fuck off. Even in the comics Superman tons to take things seriously and not smile all the goddamn time.

>>86814991
HERO? only if he was actually helping people instead ignoring them

>>86815664
>New earth superman has been in the job for decades, DCEU supes has been on it for 18 months.

Superman's happy and smiling and successful at saving people in Byrne MoS, Birthright, Secret Origin, whatever Morrison called the first arc of Nu52 Action Comics, the first three episodes of S:TAS...

>>86817893
>if you smile, it means you're not taking things seriously

Y'know, I'm sure people have tried to tell you suicide isn't worth it all your life, but if you're really not happy here, I have to be real with you, life only gets harder the older you get...

Victory at expense of the innocents, is not a victory at all

>>86815586
Sounds like they tried to make Superman into Batman.

Man Of Steel is basically Batman: Year 2. Only instead of a vigilante that wants to kill all the poor and lower classes, its a superman who wants to kill an inferior species.

>>86815664
Which is why getting rid of his Superboy era for Tea Party Pa Kent was fucking stupid.

>>86815772
A movie can be badly written and not be confusing.
Example: Dawn of Justice.

>>86817618
Literally yes, in real life as well.

>>86815541
It's sad you're still doing this when the movie has already gone down as a critical and financial failure.
Literally a joke in popular culture and with critics.
And your basement dwelling ass is still defending it.
(I'm leaving the thread now, but I guarentee you still respond)

>>86817901
This is just willfully being ignorant. It showed him helping people plenty of times.

The family in that flood, that rocket that exploded, and he saved those people in Mexico. Not to mention he literally saved everyone on earth from being killed in MOS.

>>86815352
>his motivations are flimsy

literally the exact same as comics lex: he hates what superman stands for/is more powerful than him/is more powerful while morally better all mixed into one.

>Bruce is a psychopath who needs to be stopped.
that was literally his whole character arc you idiot

>>86818175
>financial failure

jeeze, the denial is so strong

>>86817618
Why would people blindly trust someone that was involved in the mass destruction of a city and literally never talks or walks among people?

It's entirely his own fault. A real Superman would not only gain people's trust one person at a time if he had to, but he'd love doing it. Instead, this version is completely silent and sullen and then runs away to a mountain when people don't like him.

>>86817801
>Unfortunately, in these cynical times, there is a serious demand for simplistic nostalgia
reminds me of member berrys in south park....

>>86817801
>Snyder Superman faces a lot of opposition from many different forces.
and how does he counter that opposition?.....by staying completely silent and distant. Great job Snyder.

>>86818105
>only batman can struggle

oh the keks

>>86818105
>Sounds like they tried to make Superman into Batman.
Which is basically exactly what Johns came out and said.

>>86818270
>It showed him helping people plenty of times.
>lists 3 things apart from movie climx
>2 of those happened in a 2 minute long montage where he was completely silent and looked like it was a chore
>the other 3rd one he was once again completely silent and looked like it was a chore
Bravo Snyder.

>>86815673
>in BvS because Batman just so happened to create something that could kill Doomsday and their new friend just so happened to have a lasso capable of restraining Doomsday and he fucking died after.

the lasso you can't really say was super vital to the plan first off, they could have found different ways to restrain him, but its no more of a contrivance than Bruce Banner who just HAPPENS to come back in time to fight the aliens in Avengers
anyway to address the main point of batman just HAPPENING to have a staff, its actually Luthor's ignorance and ego that create that staff. He purposefully gives the kryptonite to Batman to take down Superman, thinking it impossible for them to team up and become friends. So its not a contrivance, its literally Luthor's undoing at his own hands.

>>86817996
Thats not what he meant at all you and you know it.


But to re-iterate his point, comics Superman does not smile all the time.

>>86817983
maybe at times, and BvS and MoS superman smiles plenty too (saving the girl from the fire, with lois in the bath, fighting batman) but that are also plenty of times in those comics where he DOESN'T smile.


Also S:TAS has the LEAST smiley superman ever.


Stay pleb doh

>>86818480
>people have to save people exactly when and how I want them to, or else it doesn't count.

oy

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Pathetic plebs can't understand these brilliant scenes!

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I'm gunna post my copy + pasta here

First off I really enjoy seeing Superman grow. Him growing into the ultimate hero is rarely explored, and is some of the best parts of Birthright and Secret Identity. I like that through MoS and BvS, Superman's arc has followed the heroes journey almost to a t. To the point where the metaphorical death and rebirth becomes literal. One of the key elements of the heroes journey is that at the end the hero brings back the "boon" or "elixir" making the world a better place. I believe that exactly this will happen, that the plan from the beginning, at least once they started conceptualizing or entertaining the idea of a larger shared universe, was to have Superman bring the world, one that intentionally tries to reflect our own, to a better place, one that more reflects a more classic heroic setting.

>>86818480
>HE DOESNT SMILE

The irony is that BvS is too immersive. The audiences end up adopting character viewpoints. Turns out when actually presented with a Superman, people are gonna reveal themselves as Luthors.

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>>86818525
For example, Superman is put in a no win situation by Zod in MoS. Zod tells Superman he is going to have to kill him or else people die. Flat out forcing Superman to choose between humans and kryptonians. Superman killed Zod of course, mirroring a moment from Byrne's Man of Steel run, but not without it coming back to haunt him in the form of Doomsday. In BvS Superman is presented with yet another ultimatum, kill Batman or Martha dies. This time Superman chooses the third way, learning from the first time with Zod, and instead decides to be honest with Batman and ask him for help. They even illustrate this arc within Superman further by having him first just trounce Batman's Batmobile and order him to stop (since with Zod all the at worked was overpowering him). That doesn't work, so next time he sees Batman he tries to talk to him, but suffers for making the mistake of once again just using force. But he again makes the mistake of fighting back, and again pays for it. But once he finally stops trying to fight and just asks for help "to save Martha" he starts winning Batman over. And its not until Lois, Superman's loving anchor, is even more honest, revealing Martha to be his mother, does Batman finally help him. Superman, then, ultimately has to sacrifice himself because of the mistake he made in MoS. This does another thing I really adore about the movies, it takes iconic parts from the comics and synthesizes them into one narrative without making them just empty shoutouts, it instead uses these moments to add to the narrative and themes. And its not just moments like what I mentioned above from Byrne.

2/6

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>>86818533
One of the best examples of such integration of the comics is how it uses key scenes from Dark Knight Returns (even doing a 1:1 remake of the death scene) as way to deconstruct it. I know for a lot of people deconstruction is a trigger word, so if you want you can instead say an inversion. While DKR had Batman very much in the right, BVS puts Batman on the wrong side. BvS turns Batman into the reactionary stooge that upholds the status quo, which was Superman's role in the comic. They also have the same dead Robin plot point, but this Batman never gets a new one. Batman fights Superman, but this time he goes in with the purpose of killing Superman instead of faking his own death. When Superman is nuked, it is from America instead of the commies, and he willing takes a blast to defeat a monster instead of trying to defend the earth. He also rejuvenates from the sun in space instead of sucking solar energy from Earth (as he does in the comic). And last but not least, in BvS Superman dies with a hint of him coming back instead of Batman. This kind of engagement with the past and with the stories that came before, the homages and commentaries on past comics, that is one of the aspects that makes the long 75+ years of Batman and Superman so fantastic to me, and BvS carries on in that tradition.

3/6

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>>86818537
I'm sure you're all sick of reading this, but now that I've typed so much I figure I'll continue with a few other bits I enjoy. To go back to Superman redeeming Batman, there is an intended meta element to it too I feel. Batman is an old character in BvS, and he is an old character in the movies. He has had many more movies than Superman has, and it all these movies (except for the Adam West one and the black and white serials) has has killed people. And we have been fine with this. In the movies, we the public and our inherent jadedness have turned Batman into a killer, much in the same way the universe Superman enters in BvS has turned Batman into a killer. Its not until he shares a screen with Superman does the public question why he kills and start asking for the no kill code back. And at the end of the movie he gets it back, after Superman sacrifices himself and proves to Batman, and the world, that he is indeed just a force of a good, or as Batman says it "men can still be good". Its illustrated when Batman corners Lex in his prison cell and does't brand him (instead opting for more classic Batman scare tactics). Even in the comics Batman started out killing, but once he became more integrated into the larger superhero universe they started telling stories where had a no kill rule. And this brings me to, you guessed it (sorry if my pattern is getting predictable) another thing I loved about these movies. They find ways to look at the big picture of a character, like Batman, see how the character has changed over its entire history, and make it part of the story.

4/6

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>>86818542
In fact they do the same thing with Lex Luthor. Lex always started off having a full head of hair and being a crazy mad scientist. like he was in BvS There are examples of this throughout the golden age, and a few times in the silver age. Its also re-tread by Birthright and Gene Hackman in the Reeves movies. We see the beginning of Lex's passionate hate for Superman, to the point where he lets it derail his speech at the library fund raiser. We also get to the classic Lex move of him dominating and controlling every conversation he is in. And those he can't control he gets rid of. By the end of the movie we see Lex much more stone faced and cold (sans the scene chewing bell speech, though I don't mean that in a bad way) and finally with a shaved head. A transition into the modern age Lex who keeps a more precise and calculated public persona.

I don't have much to say about this last point, other than I thought it was neat that Wonder Woman regains faith in humanity parallel to Batman, and humanity, (re)gaining faith in Superman, and by extension the superhero.

5/6

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>>86818545
I guess really I love that the movie gives me so much to chew on, and that every time I watch it I see a new little thing. Like last time I saw it, I noticed that after Batman's nightmare about dictator Superman, his worst fear about what Superman can become, its followed by Superman looking at the photos of Batman's dead victims in jail. Which is Superman's worst fear about how bad Batman can become. Or how the movie gets progressively more saturated with color as it goes on, the world literally becoming a more colorful and bright place. Or how the bat-creature in Bruce's dream is a homage/twist to a deleted scene from Val Kilmer Batman. I love all these layers it intertwines almost effortlessly.


Anyway, thanks for whoever read. I apologize if this sounds pretentious in any way.

6/6

>>86814991
>MUH EDGE
>MUH ANGST
Superman saves people and give them inspiring speeches, while enjoying opportunity to make their lives better. This retard only threatens other people, letting MASS MURDERER go away and fuck Lois. That's all his character.

>>86818465
Johns has said some weird things regarding Superman and tone. Claimed that Superman and Flash are supposed to be lighthearted. The guy whose most famous Flash story is Flashpoint claims that Flash is supposed to be lighthearted, and that Superman is supposed to be lighthearted after he blew up an entire planet in his New 52 Superman run.

>>86818464
Yeah. Casuals think of Batman as the "serious" superhero, who actually struggles. It's a shame that they sort of associate Batman, on a fundamental level, with something that would just make him inherently better than Superman if it were actually true.

>>86818445
>why sould people trust someone who saved earth twice?

>>86818445
Ok Lex.

>>86818611

>Calls Zod to earth
>Thousands of people die
>Only concerned with saving Lois

>>86817801

That right there. While I think the movie is shit from an execution point of view, I loved Superman: Earth One.

That is clearly the route they're going with this Clark: Buddha instead of Jesus (even though Snyder couldn't resist the messiah analogy), I just they would have done it on a smaller scale. Clark seeing that he isn't capable of saving everyone, that he cannot stop the suffering and so has to transcend it as an example.

>>86818625
>thousand of people die
Could've been the whole fucking world that died.
>only concerned about saving lois
Blatantly untrue.

>There is a psychological phenomenon called the Backfire Effect. Essentially, the more you try to convince someone they are wrong using facts and figures, the more convinced they become that their preexisting beliefs are correct

In case you were wondering what's wrong with DCEU apologists

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>>86818640

>>86818533

The Martha thing seems really stupid because of the presentation, there was a build-up, but a clumsy one. That's why so many people see a moment that could otherwise have been impactful as comedy.

Of course Batman would react that way, the trauma is a splash of water to his heated head. But the shitty execution ruins it (not for everyone, exemplified by you).

>>86818678
OP backs up his opinion far more than you do.

You know, no one would be mad if movie was named Edgeman vs Murderman. And it was placed in Zack universe. But this is Superman and Batman in DC universe. And every aspect of universe, people and characters is wrong here. People of DC universe cheers and glorify Superman. Superman love to save people and keep his mourn and fails inside of his heart. Batman's misson is save as many lifes as possible without installing fear in hearts of ordinary citizens, but only criminals. Etc etc.

>>86818443
Yeah, yours.

>>86818721
Sure thing, OP.

>>86818779
>People of DC universe cheers and glorify Superman

Honestly depends on the period. In a lot of his origin stories or after World of Krypton or in STAS, Darkseid's invasion, no. Amazingly enough, comic writers actually do construct things, organically, so that they make sense according to the particular story, rather than because, "it's how the character's supposed to be."

Batman oscillates between whether or not the general public even thinks he exists or not. But in BvS, I don't recall him being hated.

>You know, no one would be mad if movie was named Edgeman vs Murderman

I think this is what bothers me the most. Everyone has a version of Superman and Batman they like, but in this case, the "not muh" is in regard to versions of the characters that I really don't care about (All Star Superman is a big one). Public opinion on every hero oscillates, but your idea of a Superman who struggles internally but who keeps on a game face to help assure others actually does sound interesting. But its just one interesting version of the character for me. Superman looking happy isn't so important or fundamental to the character in my mind that I'm automatically going to hate any incarnation, such as Earth One's, for whom this isn't the case.

>>86818846
"If he was really cold or uncaring, he wouldn't have beat himself up so much after Lex blew up the Capitol Building"

That's an actual argument. All you did was post, "no you're wrong." Do you honestly believe that anyone will find:

"In case you were wondering what's wrong with DCEU apologists"

more convincing than the quote preceding it?

>>86818902
I'm not >>86818846, I'm the one who made the post you quoted.

Your post is the worst case of strawman I've seen in a while. I made a statement, not an argument, which was not aimed at OP but at the defenders of this movie as a masterpiece.

You can't put an argument next to a statement and say the argument is a better argument. It's a fallacy.
My argument is the general concesus, and the countless threads people make to convice everyone that they are wrong ,using irrelevant arguments and throwing conspiracy theories here and there to make the situation even worse.

>>86815471
It's not a matter of 'getting' it, it's just that there isn't anything to get. Snyder's disdain for the knowing the comicbook source means that we should only be applying a CliffNotes understanding to the movie. Trying to delve into fifty years of past lore to explain discrepancies is us trying to make a bad thing better.
Beyond the surface there's nothing, and Snyder seems fine with that, it's not his job to care about the coherence of the backstory, just deliver an entertaining product.

I don't feel like Superman isn't heroic.
I feel like the movie is almost apologetic for the fact that he is.
It's so weird how Snyder seems to think that it's such a strange, foreign and unnatural thing for a good man to help others.

Which seems to be why whenever there is danger afoot, Lois Lane or his mom have to be involved. Not because Supes wouldn't save other people, but because he seems to think the audience wouldn't understand if he didn't have a deeply personal stake in the matter.

Then there's also the tidbit where he explains the necksnapping of Zod to be the point where Superman cements his no killing rule.
As if you'd need to experience taking a life to take a strong stance against the practice.
Which is just wrongheaded.

The idea of BvS that the mistrust of the people or their misunderstanding of his intentions is wearing Superman down is solid. It's fine, but the execution still feels weird.

It's very clear that he doesn't want to be looked at as a Messianic figure, yet the visuals constantly frame him that way. And even in the end, when we are supposed to feel good about how they treat him post mortem, they still revere him and have that stupid inscription on his tomb. So nobody learned anything.
It seems to me that Snyder and Terio are really confused about what they want to do with him. At some points it seems like a deconstruction, but it can't go there because it's supposed to be the beginning of a massive universe filled with heroes that are in part inspired by Superman.
And he just doesn't ever seem like an inspiring figure to me as a member of the audience, because the film won't let him.

>>86818879
Superman is glorifed most of his life on main Earth. The most iconic and beloved Earth. Yeah, some people was mad about Kypton and shit, but not retarded people understand that without Superman world would be destroyed thousand times. In Zack univserse Superman looks like cruse to the planet. Batman in BvS:
Scares the hell out of kidnapped girls who was already frightened. I don't remember ordinary people being scared by Bats in main Earth, BTAS, Earth-One,Two or any other not shitty elsewolrd. In theoretical cut people literlaly call him murderer and hate him or afraid.
About not muh - Just make movie about modern Earth-Prime. Take pre-new52 version and add some modern parts from new52. Just look how Rebirth going. Most of people LOVE it. No need to make muh edge versions. You have Earth where characters have years of development. Just use it. But Zack wanted his shitty versions on screen.

>>86818952
>It's so weird how (((Snyder))) seems to think that it's such a strange, foreign and unnatural thing for a good man to help others.

>>86818948
Sure thing, OP.

>>86818445
>A real Superman would not only gain people's trust one person at a time

Not in the real world, not even in New earth, it's just that they don't focus on that.

>>86818950
>snyder's disdain for comics book
Don't even play anon, Snyder is a bigger comic book geek than most of /co/.

>>86818953
>Superman looks like a curse to the planet
See that's called projecting.

>>86819005
Someone bring this guy intervew where Zack says that comics without sex and killings are shit and boring.

>>86819005
Zack is as pleb as plebs can be, son.

>>86819016
You mean the interview how he was into heavy metal and euro comics but then was turned on to superheroes through Watchman?

>>86819024
That's the pot calling the kettle black.

>>86819005
>μπατμαν σουλντ μπι ρεηπντ

>>86814991
Didn't he get a lot of people killed in the Man of Steel movie? And then call Zod a motherfucker before snapping his neck as a family was cut to pieces by eye lazers?

I mean, this isn't classic superman by a fucking longshot.

>>86819016
You mean the interview about how he geeks out over comics?

>>86819025
Yeah, and now he tries to make his own Watchman world by using heroes of DC univese without understanding both of this universes.

>>86819042
>literally not muh
Fuck off.

>>86819047
Well, seems like you just don't read comics and don't care about DC universe.

>>86819042
Snyder understands Superman better than you do anon.

>>86819053
>you don't care about DC comic.
And I'm supposed to beleive that you do?

>>86819054
Why is his Superman is so shitty that fans hate him and normies care about Antman more than him then?

>>86819053
Caring about DC/Marvel does not mean to eat up any shit they throw at you, it means to genuinely enjoy and support the good stuff they put out.

But, I'm on /co/, so fuck me.

>>86819067
>fans hate him
Fake fans like yourself maybe but real fans see that Snyder's superman is a valid interpretation of the character.

>>86819063
You're supposed to not have so shitty taste, but yet you defend MUH EDGE and MUH ANGST.

>>86819075
>Muh edge
But His Superman is not even edgy tho

>>86819074
>snyderfag
>talkin about fake fans
I haven't seen any Superman fan who would love to see Superman being crying pussy and jerk who only cares about his mom and banging Lois. I guess, you're just fan of some shitty elseworld stories like Birthright.

>>86819074
>I'm a real fan because I read comics and am so bluepilled that I give Snyder's shit a pass because I'm just happy someone is putting the character on screen no matter how awful it is. Anyone who doesn't love it as much as me is a pleb.

>>86819121
>I read comics
You should give it a try.

>>86819016
The one where he got into comics reading Heavy metal and that mainstream comics werent his thing until his mind was opened by Watchmen?


You are an absolute idiot.

>>86819075
>MUH EDGE and MUH ANGST

MUH BUZZWORDS

>>86819142
>Yeah, and now he tries to make his own Watchman world by using heroes of DC univese without understanding both of this universes.
Read the other posts, you mongoloid.

>>86819121
But it's not awful, it's not a saturday morning cartoon.

>>86818639
>while I think the movie is shit from an execution point of view
shit taste my man

>>86819151
But he isnt making his own watchmen. At all.

You are just wrong. The Universe in the movies is a universe were all reactions from the public are not only rational but also justified. Everything "gritty" has to do with a character development and arcs.
Snyder believes Superman deserves more than just a superficial flick.

>>86819268
>Snyder believes Superman deserves more than just a superficial flick.
And yet he has made superficial pretentious flick.

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>>86819268
>Snyder
>more than just a superficial flick

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>>86819005

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>>86814991
I don't hate the movie I just prefer a different interpretation of Superman
>Pic related

>>86819151
This is a nonstatement for different reasons. Many people will tell you that Watchmen was influential and that while darkness and a focus on the personal lives and sexual orientation of superheroes was unique back then, that so many writers were influenced by Watchmen that what it brought to the table just became the norm. "Watchmen started the Dark Age of Comics." Actually reading stories from the 70s, though, about Speedy's cocaine addiction or literal baby murder in Aquaman makes that claim seem pretty hokey, however.

Either way, Snyder isn't aping Watchmen, just because you find the DCEU depressing. He's aping stuff like the Dark Knight Returns, very blatantly, and Birthright, that came after Watchmen. Throw in rape, and drug addiction, and maybe the DCEU will be as dark as the DC comic universe was 40 years ago.

>>86819376
It can't be both, which is it?

>>86815018
fpbp

>>86815471
You're the embodiment of that belief

>>86818542
POETTRY

>>86814991
The movie showed that he only cares about Lois.
He saved the day the save Lois.

Also

"No one stays good on this planet", classic Superman right there

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>>86814991
>/tv/ memers
>Actual fans giving strong arguments towards liking or hating it
>/co/ck sucking vermin that only spout buzz-words
Jesus christ, the movies alright. But shit man, I can't tell who's who anymore.

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>>86818456
Real heroes judged by their actions, not by words.

>>86814991
>Snyder
Essentially made cmmentary (with backing by Goyer/Nolan and then Terrio) of entire mythology of Superman and how major public hates very idea of that hero and gladly mirrores it (with Terrios's geniues scenario because Goyer somehow eventually became Shillary's supporter) with real-life politics.

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>>86817983
>>86818105

>>86815018
This
/thread

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Victory at expense of the innocents, is not a victory at all

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>>86819411
>What is deconstruction.

Even on your pic bullet hole is placed where HEAD was.

If you didn't pay attention right after Batman snapped Joker's head his (Joker's) color bubble went from white to grey (which is color of Batman's bubble).


http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Batman-The-Dark-Knight-Returns/Issue-4?id=81442#8

http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Batman-The-Dark-Knight-Returns/Issue-3?id=81440#44

http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Batman-The-Dark-Knight-Returns/Issue-2?id=81438#21

http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Batman-The-Dark-Knight-Returns/Issue-2?id=81438#47

>>86818639
>That right there. While I think the movie is shit from an execution point of view, I loved Superman: Earth One.
Really? I god damn, Earth One was almost unreadable to me.

>>86814991
i don't really feel like he's trying to be a hero honestly. it feels is forced to do all this things because he have to.

>>86818175
>Movie that even the most diehard Disney shills thought would be an easy billion, likely billion and a half
>Struggles just to make it's budget back
>somehow that's a success.

When they're struggling to figure out how to get Superman and Batman of all things to make money, you know something's wrong.

>>86815524
>which makes sense for someone who has had to take abuse for 33 years
But he didn't have to take abuse for 33 years. He could've had friends, a girlfriend, been happy.

...Is that why so many people here like this Clark? Because he's a reflection of their miserable lives instead of a socially well adjusted person?

>>86819156
Cartoons like Justice League and BTAS is way better than this shit.

>>86821399
>because he has to
Who the fuck is forcing him? No one is forcing superman to be a good guy, he chooses to dave people because it's the right thing to do.
>b-but my feelings
You're feelings are objectively wrong.

Snyderfags are more annoying than Nolantards were at the height of The Dark Knight's popularity.

>>86817618
People fear what they don't interact with.
We see it with cops. In communities where cops interact with the community and do daily patrols and walk around on foot and do outreach, they have a much better rapport with civilians and generally the crime rate is lower.

Whereas in communities where you ONLY ever see a cop when something has gone terribly wrong, civilians and cops alike start to associate them with negativity, and the dialogue turns sour and dangerous.

This Superman is the latter. He's not doing the community outreach. so the community doesn't see him as particularly trustworthy.

You want realism? That's realism.

>>86821486
>Who the fuck is forcing him?
The plot.

There's such a thing as stories where the characters are getting jerked around by the plot and you can tell that if they were allowed to do what they want they wouldn't even be there. MoS and BvS, at least as far as Clark's concerned in the latter, are such movies

>>86821493
>he's not doing the community outreach
He doesn't need to because every action he does has been selflessly saving people. Really you're whole fucking analogy falls apart cause Supermam isn't the cops, he's not a institution that has a history of corruption and abuse of power, he's the exact opposite.

>>86821544
>the plot
FUCK OFF SON. If you don't have a legit answer then you don't have an actual argument.

>>86819546
>and Birthright
Bullshit. I can do a page by page analysis and show why he's missed the point entirely. Any similarities you think you're seeing are coincidental at best and not specific to Birthright.

Hell I bet you're so ignorant you think there's no reason for Clark to be in Africa.

>>86821579
Do it then you little bitch, Put your money where your mouth is.

>>86821573
>Give an answer
>NOT A LEGIT ANSWER
Gosh. I'm so surprised you said that. Really.

>>86821593
Last time I did you kinofags just screamed "autism" for four hours and then said "WELL WAID IS A KEK ANYWAY SO IT'S DUMB".

But I've got some time to kill so let me just boot up my desktop.

>>86821560
>He doesn't need to because every action he does has been selflessly saving people.
His very first actions, as far as the public is aware, came at an extreme cost to humanity.
>he's not a institution that has a history of corruption and abuse of power, he's the exact opposite.
Exactly. He's an even greater unknown, with even greater power and a potential to abuse it. Trust has to be built, its not presumed.

>>86821493
This is bullshit rationalization, mainly because Superman has done nothing but save people. Really you're just proving that Snyder was right and showing that people can't accept a selfless savior.

>>86821596
It's a bullshit answer.

>>86818175

Critics nowadays are a fucking joke.

>>86814991
Because it's never once portrayed as something fun or exciting, like it should be. The miserable montage of Superman saving people is the prime example.

>>86821629
>extreme cost of humanity
From the aliens he stopped. The greater public doesn't place the blame on Superman, they rightly place the blame of the villain.

>>86818175
I'm gonna bet that the number of people who like this movie will slowly creep up over the years (mostly people who grew up with it) until it's regarded as a classic misunderstood in it's time. god, why

>>86821629
His very first public action is him sacrificing himself to the krpytonians.

>>86821675
>The greater public doesn't place the blame on Superman,
We don't really see that.

>>86821646
"Character actions are inorganic to their established personalities" isn't bullshit. You just have no way to address the argument.

>>86821698
>His very first public action is him sacrificing himself to the krpytonians.
Technically yes, but from another point of view, his very first public action is him being arrested.
Being arrested comes with a presumption of guilt.

The movie has more problems than Superman not being heroic enough though.

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Let's go.
Here's what's going to happen. I'm going to give a page by page analysis, some pages will have more than others. Some pages I will tell you to take note of for later reference. And DCEU faggots will whine the entire time, call me a pleb, an autist, throw Waid and Yu under the bus, and go "you just hate it because different! that doesn't mean based snyder is wrong!" with his dick in their mouths until I get tired and go do something fun.

You may also notice, however, what with VERY few exceptions, I will never once draw attention to "Clark is/isn't smiling" because I think that contrary to what /tv/ faggots believe that's not really the core of the problem people have.

So let's begin our analysis of Superman Birthright.

First things first, I want you to look at the eyes on this covers and keep in mind this phrase.
"The eyes are the window to the soul". This will be important later.

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>>86821877
We begin with a shot of Clark's ship or is it?. Pay attention to its colors, and the similarities of those colors to that of Superman's eventual costume.

The color theory of this comic is actually going to be relatively important, and I want to point out here how it permeates every level, even the props and technology.

>>86821786
But we do, Metropolis bulid him a stature. They wouldn't do that if they placed the blame on him.

>>86814991
The reason Superman's moping sucks so much in BvS is because that's absolutely all he does in the film. It's a good seed of an idea for a character arc, sure, but it's incredibly underdeveloped in this movie. It would have been more interesting to see him try and keep a positive attitude through most of the film, before his world really cracks.

Plenty of scripting and directing issues here too, but for starters, yeah, it could have been a little less one-note. Because every time they devote a scene to Supes or Clark, it just felt like they're re-establishing his problems instead of progressing it. The courtroom isn't even as big a turning point for him as it should have been.

>>86821786
You have no argument.
Your argument is that his selfless actions would not be selfless and that people live in constant fear of him.
You're basically Lex Luthor inly without the intelligence.

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>>86821948
Our first look at a named character opens with an extreme close up of Jor El's eyes. They're the same shade of blue as Clark's, This will be important later, but to preemptively explain some things, in fiction, blue eyes are associated with a few different characterizations, the most common of which is a certain level of innocence and purity.

In terms of writing, we see Jor-El running simulations on how to save his infant son and we see those simulations ending in failure. He declares the situation to be hopeless. Even as he says this, however, we see that he's still running more tests.
Action in the face of hopelessness will, as you may expect, be kin of important and relevant in a Superman story. Here we see it's practically a family trait.

>>86821877
>Clark is/isn't smiling" because I think that contrary to what /tv/ faggots believe that's not really the core of the problem people have.

Except that's literally the dumb complain idiots in this very same thread have.

>>86822028
My argument is that perception of events can be impacted depending on behaviors. But by all means, you can argue the point you want rather than the one I've made since it's easier for you and I know you kinokeks need all the help you can get.

>>86821698
his first public action is being relevaed as an alien who was hiding on earth for who knows what reason until an alien general showed up to take him back

if this was a story about a random character and not someone named SUPERMAN no one would be defending him

>>86821877
You do know that Waid liked how MoS used Birthright right? His only problem was that Superman killed someone.

>>86822081
No that is Zod's very first public action.

>>86822062
Exactly>>86815151

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>>86822044
There are two things this page does that bear drawing attention to.
First, we get the whole "Krypton is doomed" stuff done in a panel.
Now, cards on the table, I did actually take a few screenwriting classes back in college. One of the things they drilled into me was that a page of dialogue translates to about a minute of on screen time. This is important because, statistically, what took Snyder 20 minutes of Man of Steel's runtime to establish, got done in a fraction of the time. There's a real problem with economy of plot present in MoS that nobody ever wants to address.

The second is that it gives Lara dialogue. Lara Lor-Van tends to be an afterthought in the Superman mythos and in Snyder's version this is no exception. Here, we get at least some characterization of her as retaining hope in the face of destruction, as there's no other option BUT to hope.

Y'know, rather than go home and cry about it.

>>86822062
I think it's actually deeper than just smiling vs not smiling and that there's some level of elocution missing from the argument.

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>>86822164
Now, about that whole color theory thing.
I'm sure even the most ardent /tv/ shitposter is familiar with the blue and orange meme and how it's everywhere but I'd also like to make a note of what those colors actually mean. Color pallets can be used to promote emotional responses. This isn't day one film school stuff, but rather more elementary than that.

Here, as soon as the flashback to the past of Krypton begins, the panels switch to a cold color pallet in order to promote a negative emotional response. This will be important after the next page.

>>86822096
I also know that as soon as he complained about said ending, the vast majority of Snyderfags turned on him.

And I also know that if DCEU guys can do the death of the author thing and go "Snyder *really* meant *THIS*" even when Snyder himself contradicts things, there's no reason I can't also do similar and at least make note of how how the differences in execution lead to entirely different conclusions.

>>86822164
>20 minutes
Really? Cause it didn't feel that length to me at all.

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>>86822248
Now notice, in the first panel, we see Jor El discussing the fearful unknown and conquering that unknown with intellect and science. Notice that the predominant color, while still cold, has a lot more *green*. This is VERY important.

In the next, as Krytpon advances culturally, we get more splashes of red. The children especially, are wearing warmer colors than the adults. This is to denote that as Krypton advances, it's getting to be a better place. The page gradually gets warmer as we move forward in time into...

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>>86814991

I think the fans reaction is that Superman should help people as an end in itself, not for approval. And yes Superman might be sad the people don't trust him, but it wouldn't stop him from going around and trying to make things better.

I actually think MOS demonstrated that side of him since even after the hilarious tornado scene convinced him to stay hidden, that altruistic side of him kept coming out naturally in scenes like the oil rig scene, the bar intervention, etc. (though I don't think Superman is petty enough to go destroy the guys truck, which doesn't improve anyone's life, and might encourage the driver to be even more of a dick, but is really just for Clark's self gratification).

In BvS however, we never really see Superman go out and try to improve the world. We see him save his girlfriend's life yes. We see him take an extremely antagonistic stance on Batman because he believes batman is making things worse, but that's not quite the same thing.

And I do like the fact that Superman did sacrifice himself for the safety of the world, but so much of the movie is focused on other stuff. So much of the personality we see of Clark is negative. That's one of the problems with making 1 movie out of 2-4 different incomplete ones. We were never really introduced to that really important aspect of Clark's character because it's smothered to death in side-plots, action spectacle, other characters, etc.

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>>86822314
...Modern Krypton. Which is ENTIRELY done with a warm color pallet.
We also get one of those riding dragons but it's not a big deal.

>>86822255
Actually it's even longer but I'm talking about just the stuff pertaining to the destruction of Krypton. All told we spend about 35 minutes of Man of Steel's run time on Krypton (and then get the Cliff's Notes version on top of that when Jor El's hologram talks to Clark).

Now to be fair this is partially necessary as to establish Zod's character (as basic as it is) but more importantly, I feel it detracts from the movie being Clark's story.

>>86814991

THANK YOU

>>86815018
> Wasting effort on a bad overdrawn movie

Nah it's just bad.

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>>86822397
From a writing standpoint, we get to see that from his narration, Jor-el's actually kind of fond of Krypton and thinks they've accomplished worthwhile things. Compare this to the paradoxical Jor-El we're given under Goyer; who wants Kal-el to join Krypton with that of his new home, yet seems to have nothing good to say about it.

We also get more dialogue and characterization for Lara here. Now admittedly it's been a while, but I seem to recall she didn't really have any dialogue in Man of Steel. She seems to exist purely so that we can see her get screamed at by Zod and be consumed by flames. That's just wasted potential, plain and simple.

Also notice the blankest the infant Kal-el is swaddled in. They will be extremely important later, and anyone with familiarity of the Superman mythos will no doubt know why.

We also get another close up of the bright blue eyes of Kal-el's parents

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>>86822460
Oh I forgot to also note. In panel five of the last page, notice we see the infant Kal-El reaching out to his parents? Yeah, him reaching out to people is going to be a HUGE DEAL over the course of the book and it starts early.

Anyway here, we get more agency and characterization from Lara here.
We also get to see Jor-El humanized with some doubt. Which shows that doubt isn't a bad thing when you use it sparingly.

>all this autism about an irrelevant comic just to explain how assmad you are that Batman v Superman was a success

Why are Marvel fans so pathetic.

>>86822248
Yeah because he was being a fag about it.
>oh no Superman doesn't
>except when he does

>>86822515

I don't understand that actually, does he think MoS is a birthright adaptation? He doesnt understand that you can approach the same story from different points of views and focus on different elements?

Anyway Birthright was bad, but at least it was better than secret origin.

>>86822515

Why are you so mad?

>>86822248
Because Waid was wrong.
>Superman shouldn't kill this omnicidal space god warrior who is planning to kill every human being because killing is wrong

>>86822567
Because Marvel fans won't fuck off with their company war bullshit and accept the fact that Snyder made BvS, which was a massive success by every definition, of the likes Marlel shits could only dream of achieving.

>>86822372
>So much of the personality we see of Clark is negative
Most of the movie is Bruce's perspective and we needed to see him in a negative light.

Problem is that the movie never really does a proper turnaround on that, never properly adresses it that some risk is acceptable, that maybe we CAN rely on this one man to pull the big rescue jobs.
Superman begging for his mother's life makes Batman understand him, sure. But it doesn't make the world understand him. And the audience really has to pull their own weight to figure out all the shit that one scene is trying to tell them. It's not a "too smart for you" because the problem isn't its complexity, it's in the clarity of the message. Even if you're the smartest guy around nobody will listen to you if you can't express yourself properly.
By the movie's end I find myself still agreeing with Luthor's mudslinging campaign. Yes, that man IS a danger. He IS careless. We really don't want that much power in one single human being with very human emotions.

I absolutely loved and love MoS. But I found BvS to be indefensible.

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>>86822514
Now, we see Jor-El moving *past* that doubt in the space of a page because shit needs to get done. There's no time to angst on mountaintops about how hard things are.

We get our first picture of Earth, and coinditentally it's focused on the north american continent. We get our explanation of Superman's eventual powers as well.

Look at the colors here. Again, they're warm and saturated. Lots of yellow and orange here. This is to denote that even as Krypton is falling apart around them, there's still hope and goodness to be found here.

(And baby Kal is still reaching for his parents.)

>>86815018
First post Best post

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>>86822607
Amd again, look at that last panel and how it's focused. We have hope (as denoted by the warm color of the red son) focused and leaving with Clark.

I could also say more about how e get Lara to talk here but I've already done that for like four posts.

>>86822605

>And the audience really has to pull their own weight to figure out all the shit that one scene is trying to tell them. It's not a "too smart for you" because the problem isn't its complexity, it's in the clarity of the message.

That's a good point.

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>>86822683
Blah blah juxtaposition of warm and cold colors. We also get to see Kryptonite for the first time.

We also get the start of a transition I would've loved to see on film.

>>86821287

I thought it was an edge-fest at first, but then I saw that Clark actually has a trajectory and even one that makes sense.

Many Superman stories don't really have a convincing argument why Clark isn't bothered by all the bad shit that he cannot fix. Maybe he one day becomes the guy that can fix it all, but it wasn't like that from the start. At the start he was just a regular invincible dude who had to learn coping strategies just like everybody else. Earth One does that in a believable and in my opinion heartfelt way. He's cocky and violent at first and has power fantasies. He also is grounded by the people around him and when he sees that he can't see everybody and how horrible that is, he starts to transcend.

To me, it's like a Buddha story, especially when he loses it's power and gains tremendous respect for humanity for being functional AT ALL. It's like Gautama walking among the sick and poor for the first time in his life.

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>>86822737
The transition of the lone ship against the darkness of space illustrates the uniqueness of Kal and how he's alone in the universe at this point. The captions denote just how close a thing it was that Kal make it to earth giving a small modicum of tension.


>>86822741
>Many Superman stories don't really have a convincing argument why Clark isn't bothered by all the bad shit that he cannot fix.
They don't have that argument because they say he *is* bothered by all the bad shit he cannot fix.

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>>86822800
Mirror images of the sun and the engine from Kal's ship as shown next to earth to show that Kal is a light to the world. SYMBOLISM.

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>>86815352
>[Characters] plan is contrived and nonsensical and his motivations are flimsy at best.

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>>86822821
We get the transition of Clark's ship becoming a speeding bullet and vice versa.

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>>86822848
Here we get Clark's childhood in a page. It's not a lot, but we do get some important snapshots. We see his discovery by the Kents (something Snyder skips over entirely), we see Lana Lang (showing that Clark did in fact have social connections as a child and wasn't an ostracized and bullied nobody) and we see him exploring the extent of his powers from an early age (and using them to help others) rather than living in fear of them and hiding them by any means necessary.

>>86822800
>They don't have that argument because they say he *is* bothered by all the bad shit he cannot fix

I phrased that wrong. Even superpowers like his combined with the Kent upbringing cannot bring someone to stomach all that he stuff he must see on a daily basis. He had to have a phase where his only coping strategies would be to fall into some kind of fantasy of himself.

The "interview" Clark has with Superman at the end reads exactly like that. Something a troubled college freshman might write. Clark is literally super at all the other jobs he applied to, but his work to be done lies in the soul. He's not yet a writer, not a "full" human being and he's not yet Superman.

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>>86822898
So now we have our Clark.
We see he's got the camera and press kit so we already know he's on ihis way to being a journalist without needing to waste time on exposition for it. We also see that he's diving in front of bullest to save someone. There's no time to worry about what might go wrong, or if he's going to be discovered, he's just acting. Consequences can come later and he can deal with them because he's got agency and the lives are on the line are more important than "something might go wrong".

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>>86822948
So we pan out and see that Clark is in West Africa. Why is this important? I'll get into it more later but it shows us that
- Clark is a world traveler rather than just wandering North America; he's a world citizen and tied to the whole of humanity.
- It's a way to hearken back to the whole "modern humanity came out of Africa" and tie that to his beginnings.

Clark,, in his bright yellow., stands out against the colder colors around him,. with one noticeable exception. This too, is important later.

But then again I'm sure that most people will want to instead focus on the fact that he's smiling in the third panel and *obviously* that means he's a sociopath that can't read the mood and/or this is a campy story we can't take seriously at all.

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>>86823054
We're told (via translation convention) that Clark isn't speaking English. This too, is to build him up as a global citizen.
So, see how Asuru is similarly clothed in warm orange and yellow but the colors are inverted? It's to create a mirror image, a link between him and Clark and denote they have a similar purpose. We're not done with the first issue, but we've already gotten Clark tied to humanity.


Also remember that whole "page of dialogue = minute of screen time" thing? We're onto adult Clark doing his thing far sooner here. In Man of Steel, we'd only just now be getting to Jor-El getting shanked and the "I WILL FIND HIM" scene. Food for thought.

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>>86823173
Okay, so here's another reason why Clark is in Africa.
African tribal wear is bright, elaborate, and full of saturated colors and flowing cloth. Now hmm...What other civilization have we seen in this comic that wears bright elaborate flowing clothes?

In addition to this showing Clark as a globetrotter, the use of that tribal wear shows that Earth has similar means of dressing and presenting themselves so the idea of Superman wearing the colors of his "tribe" requires less explanation AND less justification. Just as the tribesman can wear bright colors, so can Superman.

We also get focus spent on the idea that mankind has a problem with divisiveness. But notice that Clark needs that *explained* to him. His nature is such that he doesn't naturally see barriers as others do.

>>86822460
>Movie Jor-el was a paradox
Well that's because he was meant to to be.

>>86823173
>food for thought
Huh I guess you're right, Movies do pace differently than comics.

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>>86823245
Pay attention to Kobe's dialogue here. It discusses the nature of identity and how the loss or denial of that identity results in an irrevocable loss of self. Which, as if wasn't already painfully obvous as being relevant to Clark, gets forced into the forefront and we see the crux of this part of the story; Clark is looking for his own identity and a way to express pride in what he is.

Clark is established as having a very human concern by using a human parallel rather than changing anything about *him*.

As opposed to living in a fearful state of "I gotta hide this because because will flip their shit" like Snyder did.

>>86823279
Yes, he was supposed to be written that way. Doesn't make it good.

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>>86823324
We get more explanation of what Clark has been doing with himself. And it's a lot more proactive and constructive than being a drifter.
Lois also gets name dropped.

>>86823322
But is said pacing necessary? Does spending that much time on prologue detract from Clark's story? I'd argue it does. Clark is subsumed by Krypton, h becomes a blunt instrument through which the ideologies of Jor El and Zod clash with each other rather than a fully realized influence on the plot in his own right.

>>86822460
>paradoxical Jor-El we're given under Goyer; who wants Kal-el to join Krypton with that of his new home, yet seems to have nothing good to say about it.

Jor-El's complaint about Krypton was that it was incapable of developing any further because of how society was set up. He wanted to change the system from within the system while fighting against biologically predetermined people. Considering he was also a victim to these predeterminations I guess that IS sort of a paradox, but I imagine it was his natural scientific curiosity that lead him down that path of thought.

In any case, refusing to help Zod implies he did think there was good in Krypton's achievements. He simply thought they needed a good shakedown. The impending doom was a good chance for that.

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>>86823394
Some more expositon, introduction of the Kents, and a reaffirmation of the idea that Clark is searching the entire world for answers to his identity as opposed to just the parts that speak English.
Also, casual use of powers without fear, as born from experience with their use.
As opposed to "If I give this drunk the bum's rush everyone will suspect me of powers even though I have a foot and forty pounds of muscle on the guy." or "If I act like a 19 year old built like a running back and jog to this car and back everyone will know I'm an alien"

This is happening as Clark is told to embrace who he is. Which, you know, the meaning of which should be obvious, and it didn't take us a goddamn hour to get to.

Notice the page is largely featuring those primary colors that make up his costume, just in slightly desaturated forms. The juxtapositon is still there but is tempered by the situation.

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>>86823483
Okay so all that stuff I was saying about wearing the colors of your tribe and custom to embrace and share your heritage? I wasn't just talking out of my ass. We get told here, specifically, that the colors of the tribe are passed down from generation to generation (as they were for Kal now Clark in >>86822460) and the meaning we have.

Clark also draws more parallels to various human cultures to further sell the idea that this is something we should be well familiar with and thus we don't need "it's his armor" excuses or anything like that, and that he's searched for meaning through the whole of humanity.

We also get told about Clark's aversion to masks and what they mean to him. This helps explain why he doesn't wear one as Superman, and more importantly, it show us that *Clark wants people to trust him and is preemptively thinking about how to take steps to instill that trust*
As opposed to "fly in, do the thing, fly out, cry about why they just don't understand"

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>>86823583
Now about that whole
>you just want a perfect mary sue that never has to try hard and always wins and never makes mistakes
thing and why that's bullshit.
In this page, we get a Clark that's NOT omnipotent or omniscient. He lets his guard down and the attack happens. But he still tries to take charge of the situation. It CAN work if executed properly.

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>>86823639
Similarly, we see that Clark CAN second guess himself, but again, what matters and what's different is how quickly he bounces back and corrects his mistake. There's no time to wast perseverating over "if I use my heat vision I might get caught" or "if I burst out of this wall people will panic". There's too much at stake and he knows this.

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>>86823684
Now about this page.. I mentioned instances of this earlier but here one of the differences between Birthright and Man of Steel is laid bare.

See here, something superhuman happens, and humanity is skeptical enough that they're going to try and rationalize it. Clark gets hit with bullets and doesn't die, he must be wearing a vest. Clark's shirt is torn? He messed it up earlier, it's fine.

Whereas in Man of Steel, humanity seems almost eager to believe aliens and miracles and so Clark can't do ANYTHING for fear of discovery. He can't run faster than a 50 year old man to a car and back, or people will know he's an alien. He can't make friends, or people will find out. He can't toss out a trucker, because super strength is the only explanation people will draw. That's not even "realism". Realism is the former; rationalization. What Goyer did? it's just silly, and blatantly manufactured in such a way as to insure that Clark never tries and is forced into a small box of "don't be myself" for much of the movie.

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>>86823771
And we see that difference drawn further. Remember that whole "Clark has parallels to Kobe" thing? Here we see that again. There are risks, and rather than faltering in the face of them, Kobe moves forward and the world is going to have to get with the program. He's proactive, and DEMANDS readiness from the world to accept his place in it rather than waiting for it to acquiesce. As this Clark learns to do, and as MoS Clark didn't. That's the difference between an active and a passive protagonist.

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>>86823825
>If you wish to be part of the human race, you hae to get in the game.
>We all have roles, and the world never changed for a man too timid to play his to the absolute limit.

Really, that's almost enough said. Snyder's Superman is timid. That's all there is to it.

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>>86823862
Back in >>86821877 I pointed out the importance that eyes play in the art of this book.
Whereas on the last cover we had Clark with Eyes and Superman without, here as Clark becomes closer to realizing his purpose, and refining his viewpoint, Superman is given his eyes.

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>>86824007
So, that first flight scene that's constantly declared the best moment of the DCEU and hte best cape movie moment and kino and all that shit?

This is Birthright's version of that. Only he's not dressed as Superman, but as Clark. Because Clark is the real person and here we see him embracing his powers and what makes him unique of his own volition. Without having to get a pep talk or put on a costume to do it.

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>>86824099

>>86824099
>Clark is the real person
They're both the same real person.

Snyder is a true visionary and BvS is true kino, a scene with a coffee cup represents Batman's rage been contained by Supe's goodness, this is truly the greatest kino of our lifetimes, 100 years from now people will still talk about how brilliant every single frame is and nobody will ever remember the name of the other company that also happens to make "super kek heroes movies".

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>>86824118
Okay so I don't think Birthright is the perfect story and here's a good example as to why. Soul vision is kind of unnecessary addition to the concept. It's useful as a means to quickly estalish why Clark holds the sanctity of life in such high esteem but there are probably better ways to go about it.

This is not a defense of the DCEU however because "I need to kill in order to learn killing is bad" is even dumber and I still can't believe that was the justification given.

I wouldn't mind him wrestling with lions though.

>>86824150
Yeah I think with Clark it's just as simple as the normal social shifts in behavior (how you are at work, with different sets of friends, at home, etc) rather than any part being truly made up.

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>>86824221
>>86824221
So, about identity.
Look at the narration in the second panel and how Clark's first instinct is to count himself as a part of humanity. He thinks of his relationship to humans as "Us" rather than "Me and earthlings." In a single word we get the idea of just how Clark self identifies, and with that identity, why he's so gung ho about helping the world and humanity; he doesn't think of himself as separate from it even when he knows he's from another planet and it's so deeply ingrained that he has to stop and think otherwise.

This is the complete opposite of Snyder's version, that took 2 movies 33 years of life, and literally dying to go "this is my world"

>>86824150
Yeah I can word that better. It's more about Clark embracing his identity as is without putting him needing a uniform to do it. Which these pages actually get into.

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>>86824439
So this is probably where Snyder and Goyer got the whole "on my planet it meas hope' thing.
Except, as the previous page shows, Clark is still detached from Krypton. It's not deep down in his heart, it's not *his* planet. That different context changes things.

We also get a Clark that's angsting. Not about how people are treating him, but about how he feels he's not living up to his potential. Showing that we can have an emotional Clark but his struggles need to be certain ones.

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>>86824511
Now this page, on the surface, looks like this is where Man of Steel gets a lot of its ideas and characterization. But again, that's just on the surface.
First, as before, we see Clark is going everywhere. He's in Japan. He's in the caribbean. Comparatively his search for answers and identity and acceptance covers a MUCH wider area than we see it do under Snyder.
Second, we see him being friends with people. He's actually bonding with them until there's trouble to separate them rather than simply avoiding that involvement as drifting hobo for fear of discovery in the first place.
That makes the inevitable divison in the next panel all the more poignant. We see a loss because he had something to lose to begin with. More importantly *we see it happening* instead of just being told to take it on faith that "if you use powers bad things and change will happen". Snyder treats the panicking of humanity as such a given inevitability that he doesn't spend the necessary time expounding on it. The distrust Clark is greeted with is defined as *retroactive* rather than *presumed*.

Lastly, it shows that what disturbs Clark is NOT the divisions the use of his powers create, but rather the fact that he has to hide. He resents the fact that he has to keep his distance, and rejects the dichotomy of superhuman savior and social human. That sense of resentment is missing in the Snyder version, and in fact, the division of alien and man is CELEBRATED.

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>>86824674
Clark acts to help regardless of those previous setbacks.

And again, show rather than tell. We are SHOWN people panicking at the flying alien in their midsts. As opposed to Snyder's telling us, "when people find out about aliens it will change everything" but then when Zod literally parks an alien death machine over a city they don't even shut down school and all the panic is presumed and told rather than shown.

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>>86824740
So here we see Clark faced with a problem he can't solve with his powers, showing us that Superman is not, in fact, all powerful or capable of fixing everything. He can't change the hearts of men with any of his powers.

And so he tries to use his words instead.

When people complain that Snyder Clark doesn't talk enough, stuff like this is (a small part of) why.

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>>86824812
>When people are confronted with unexpected strength they tend to react with fear, not reason. Believe me when I say this.
It's easier to believe here because we've seen it happen already rather than just being told "But it'll change everything tho!"

Anyway, more of Clark attempting to use his words to help people while standing among them rather than floating above.
More eye close ups too. I never really noticed how many there were until doing these breakdowns.

>>86824155
Your bait is fucking weak, try harder next time.

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>>86824943
Kobe continues to be a parallel to Clark. Much as he says conflict would exist with or without him, the same is true of Clark. There is an inertia to bad things happening that exists independent of him.

In the DCEU however? So far most of the problems exist in some way or another as a result of Clark's existence. He literally is the codex that Zod searches for, he accidentally summons Zod to Earth, Luthor and Bruce both chimp out because of him, He kills Zod but doesn't dispose of the body, leading to Doomsday, the Squad is formed in order to counter him, etcetera etcetera ad infinitum.
He's a lynchpin, but not in a a way that's framed as particularly positive. Which is what leads to the sentiment, both in universe and among the audience, that maybe the DCEU would've been better off ahd Clark gotten blown up with the rest of his planet. All the inertia, all the conflict is happening because he exists.

Here we see also Clark's understanding of the power of the press and controlling a narrative. This is the complete opposite of Snyder's Clark, who is a reporter, dating another reporter, and seems befuddled as to why the media is painting him a certain way and has no idea how to go about changing that perception.

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>>86825074
>oh my god, what do I...
THIS IS HOW YOU WRITE A PROPER CONFLICT WITH SUPERMAN
By showing that he's still just one guy. With all his powers, he has to choose what to prioritize. He can't be everywhere at once.

Also, notice how he's wearing the bright orange in that last panel and how the rest of the colors are more subdued? Clark is a light in the darkness; it doesn't change him.

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>>86825127
And he makes that choice in an instant. Because again, lives are on the line. No time to go to a mountain and ask ghost dad for advice.

Has it sunk in few pep talks this Clark needs yet?

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>>86825178
Consequences of having to make the choice are shown immediately.

>>86825214
Clark stops the Molotov from exploding the building. Rather than watching it hit and going "whoops" after the fact.

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>>86825239

>>86825046
Its not like its not 100% right tho.

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>>86825269
Action Comics 1 homage.
But also notice the random guy in the lower right going "Clark?".
That's a random guy for a reason; it shows that Clark has bonded with this community enough that there are people that recognize him even without there being attention drawn to it

>>86815772
being poorly written was the biggest complaint of every normie from the west to east coast. if the movie only clicks with the fandom who inserts head canon to make sense of the the parts of the movie that make no fucking sense then by far as a movie for the masses, it is a failure.


the fact that the extended addition on the dvd FIXED all the stupidity is an insult to the viewer as now you have to pay again to see the exact same movie done right. it sets up the foundation that dceu only cares about making cash and not good movies.

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>>86825310
More consequences of choice.
As opposed to "Clark didn't notice his mom getting kidnapped because he turns off his senses since all he hears is pain" we get "Clark has to choose between the many and the one".

Do I really have to explain how those are different? I think you're smart enough that I don't.

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>>86825447
Clark is faced again with the consequence of his revealing himself and we see it happen in real time. He doesn't even hesitate to act in light of this however.

Compared to "it MIGHT go bad" pessimism brainwashing him so badly that a single hand is enough to bar him from action.

>>86815668
called it

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>>86825503
He has enough foresight to destroy the cameras, showing us that he's not going off half cocked.
Warm colors even in the tense situation because he's doing the right thing.

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>>86825536
See this? A Superman that feels, that gets mad, is not inherently a deal breaker. It's just that this story, unlike Snyder's, knows how to apply it properly and there's more range of emotion and tone.

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>>86825536
We get another gimpse into the power of the press. This will matter soon and goes towards a greater issue of controlling narratives that this comic succeeds at (and Snyderverse fails at) by having Clark be an active participant.

Remember, he's the one that brought the reporters there, so even if he doesn't prevent the death, he does see justice done, and he does it with his abilities as a reporter rather than his superpowers.

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>>86825617
Oh no, he didn't save someone. We'd better just throw this entire comic out because Superman isn't allowed to fail, right?

But seriously, this death has meaning because we'd had two issues of building Kobe as a character and drawing parallels between him and Clark. Compare this execution to to Snyder asking us to care about a bunch of nameless background extras in falling buildings as a means of establishing how high the stakes are.

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>>86825676
Justice done on a level other than that of a superman, as a result of his actions. Like I mentioned in >>86825617

It's important because it shows us that Clark wants to help people any way he can, and by having him do so in such a "mundane" way you build on that franchise idea that anyone can be a Superman.

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>>86825735
I really like the paneling and how it illustrate the gulf his power creates. It's infinitely more subtle than a bunch of skull faces reaching out for him.

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>>86825818
Kansas time. Not much to say here.

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>>86825849
Here though, we get another example of Clark using his powers in a way that helps people but isn't just him punching hard. This kind of thing falls under the purview of all that "helping people across the street" stuff that goes a long way in characterizing Clark but is derided by Snyderfags as being campy and unnecessary.

>>86815018
Yep

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>>86825882
We get Clark and his parents bonding and we get Jonathan's concern over his son without him actively discouraging Clark from doing what he does.

Also, >I can see their trasmissions. Just have to weave between them, is all.
As opposed to punching them out of the sky.

Also, another glimpse of Lana to establish that Clark had a well developed social life and Lois isn't his first goddamn friend in the entire world.

>>86814991
Exactly. It's about how our modern, jaded world would respond to Superman.

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>>86825972
Look at the color of that wall when they mention Lex (and the place where his picture used to be). It's green, right? The last time that was an important color was back in >>86822314. Green was the color of science and intellect there. How might that relate to Lex Luthor, I wonder?

We also get what probably became the crux of DCEU Jonathan's characterization, albeit pre-mangling. Notice the difference here. Instead of saying what WILL happen and focusing on a worst case scenario, it's a quesstion and we're asked to imagine. We have the framing that Clark is safe at home (notice the colors and how in this one frame Jonathan is colder than Clark, Martha, or the background) that shows that Jonathan's fears are out of place.
We have Clark wearing a shirt that's featured prominently that reads I BELIEVE, (in other words, he remains hopeful) and it's front and center as he tells his parents that they're going to collectively find out about his place in the world.

The movie's shit because Snyder didn't care about Superman doing heroic shit until the backlash of MoS forced him to do so.

When it takes you 2 films to try and get the tone a character right, you're doing it wrong. You probably shouldn't have gained the opportunity to work with the character in the first place.

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>>86826089
Clark still separates his forefathers from himself and we see that he still identifies primarily as human and is only just now coming around to the idea of embracing both sides of his identity. As was established with all that stuff in Africa

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>>86826217
Now see this here? This is what Snyderverse Clark is missing. A chance to say his piece. A chance to say how he feels about having to hide who he is and what he wants to do and what it means. It's a dialouge in which he's an active participant. Which is entirely the point; he's no longer on the sidelines.

I'm bored now and my grill cover just arrived in the mail so I'm calling it here.

>>86820726
>Real heroes judged by their actions, not by words.
Then what was with the whole thing about questioning Supes' motives? When he doesn't talk that's obvious. But trying to communicate and open a dialogue IS an action, and it shows he wants them to understand. Without Supes having, I don't know, someone who interviews him, or a best pal, it's no fucking wonder that Superman isn't well received. He's a stoic flying guy who saves people, sure, but he never seems to care.

BvS seemingly intentionally removed everything that made Superman likable in-universe and then played it straight and you fuckers ask why we don't like this Superman.

>>86826270
So I guess I have to be one to point this out but your birthright analysis is not a valid critique of MoS.

>>86822737
Also seen here is the chunk of Krypton embedding itself in the craft, which is how Kryptonite reaches Earth.

>>86827494
>Superman isn't well received
But that's wrong? Like in-universe everyone seems to be pretty stoked on Superman. The only ones who aren't are assholes like Batman, Lex and yourself.

>>86827494
>he constantly saves people but he doesn't seem to care.
Are you retarded?

>>86827643
Congratulations on missing the point entirely.

>>86827741
Look, I believe that logic and reason should supercede emotion, but it makes a world of difference having Superman actually connect with those he saves. Everyone is worthwhile. Making sure he's actually talking to people is important for that. It keeps Supes from looking like Boo Radley when Supes is equal parts power and personality to the public.

>>86827773
What is the point? That MoS isn't Birthright and therefore bad?