Can someone explain to me how I can tell the difference between

>>85690306
Wally is more darker.

What complicates things is that Wally wore Barry's costume for a bit then he got a couple of his own. If the Flash has lenses it's Wally for sure but he had a few suits without them too and sometimes his eyes got colored blue so that's not a guarantee either even with open eyes. Generally Wally's costume has the V lightning at the waist and doesn't have wings on the boots, at least pre-Flashpoint (post-Flashpoint I think Barry has adopted both of these quirks but his suit has a bunch of lines on it and Wally's is different enough that you shouldn't mix them up anymore).

Mainly you just read the comic to find out if you don't know the year of publication (though there were some flashback stories with Barry too so even just the year isn't foolproof).

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>>85690450

That was one of the things bothering me. I assumed Wally was the only one with a V belt but then I remembered Barry had the V belt in New 52.

they've taken everything from wally in order to make barry not fucking terrible in recent years, that includes his costume traits, barry has wally's non wingtip boots and lightning belt pointing downward to his cock.

>>85690597
Bart stole it first when he became the Flash, it's just the modern costume in general

>>85690450

>If the Flash has lenses it's Wally for sure
This one had lenses and this is Barry isn't it?

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>>85690692

forgot to include pic.

>>85690692
>>85690710
true forgot about that shitty DCYou costume, white lenses is Wally for sure not counting like Walter West and maybe John Fox but their looks are significantly different enough

>OP asks about Barry
>Posts a picture that doesn't even have Barry

Thawne plz go

>>85690306
Barry has blue eyes, Wally has green eyes.

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Why was Wally West in a yellow suit for DC Rebirth? Was he in a yellow costume pre-flashpoint?

>>85690839
Wally had blue eyes in his own book until like Waid-ish. That's not really a good way to tell.

>>85690889
That was his Kid Flash costume. Read the issue again, he mentions why that's weird.

>>85690766
Shh

>>85690306
OP, just read Flash V2 and you'll get to know Wally and how to tell the difference between him and Barry.
Some anon storytime'd like 2/5 of it few months ago, just look it up in the archives.

>>85690889
>>85690889
Because Johns can't have anyone but Barry wearing the flash suit

>>85690889
Wally West had a costume just like The Flash (Barry) when he first became Kid Flash, then he got that costume in your pic.
When Barry died he started wearing the red costume, and when he lost that little thingy that would make them costumes, he asked for his science friends to make a new one that is the shiny one with white lens.

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Did they explain why Wally has white lightning now instead of yellow? or did they just decide to do it to make it easier.

>>85690306
Wally is black

>>85691111
God Booth is so bad on art

Nice quads though

>>85690597
>Wallyfags crying

And all is normal.

>>85691186
Bet you're a Barryfag that enjoys new Barry with Wally's personality

>>85691308
>Wally's personality
I see you're a Wallyfag that's read little to nothing about Wally. Which makes you the worst kind of Wallyfag.

>>85691111
Wally's lightning obviously has special properties with the memory stuff and all but it hasn't been fully explained yet.

>>85691126
No, Wally is black not Wally. Wally is white.

It's very simple.

>>85690306
It used to be the belt and the wingtips on the boots until the New 52 where they just gave Barry Wally's suit with lines.

So basically, here's how you do it: Are there wingtips on the boots? If yes it's Barry. If no, are there lines everywhere? It's Barry. If not, it's Wally.

The easier way is just when you're reading they'll usually refer to them as Wally or Barry.

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>>85691341
>>85691308

Hey, non-comic reader here...
>DCAU Wally = Funny Guy

>>85690889
He's basically New 52 rebooted Wally who never became Flash (because Barry never died). He was gone because of Abra Kadabra -- who apparently did it while Wally was still Kid Flash/A Teen Titan in this universe. Being gone is what made him remember when he was The Flash.

So basically he's new 52/rebooted Wally with pre-flashpoint memories.

>>85690710
His left leg is fucked

>>85691111
They did it because they want him to look different from Barry.

They are going to write a reason into the story as for why it is that way, but the real reason is because Barry is the one who gets to look like "The Flash." Wally gets to look like whatever that is.

>>85691739
Right leg* shit

>>85691739
Welcome to Brett Booth.

>>85691728
Depends on how you think about it, he's physically in a new 52 body but I think his pre-Flashpoint essence is what existed before that body solidified and was granted a 52 history that included Kadabra's fuckery.

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>>85691712
>>85691341
>>85691308

Hey, non-comic reader here...
>DCAU Wally = Funny Guy
>DCEU Barry = Funny Guy

What's the difference?

>>85691818
I mean, they confirmed this is the same universe. Aside from the weird Superman/Lois Lane situation everyone is their "original" selves, just altered by Manhattan. Wally is his original self, altered by Manhattan. Through the power of the Speed Force he has memories that survived the alteration.

>>85691341
>I see you're a Wallyfag that's read little to nothing about Wally
I've read from Baron to Waid, the fuck you're talking about

>>85691876
I won't go as far as he did but I'm not sure how anyone who actually read any of that could think they put any of Wally's personality in Barry. Wally was basically an asshole, he was lovable but Barry isn't like that at all.

>>85691908
JL Barry is nothing like Barry and everything like Wally, atleast. Johns even specifically ripped off his own scene he did from his Wally run and gave it to Barry.

Flash solo Barry is pretty different until you get to Venditti, where it seems like they tried to mix in TV show Wally for fights with a depressed bitch when he's not in costume.

>>85691966
I guess that would explain it, I haven't read JL at all but I read the solos.

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So if the white Wally West is Wally West, then who is the black Wally West? Is it just a coincidence that two different people named Wally West became The Flash? Oh wait, he has a yellow outfit now, so he's Kid Flash. What was his silver costume suppose to be? Wasn't the silver one him as The Flash? If he was The Flash, why did he downgrade to Kid Flash?

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>>85691994
The silver costume was from Futures End which may never happen, he only recently got powers

>>85691851
It was always the same universe just altered though, Flashpoint itself was a story about this. That's not a change just because they switched the cause to Manhattan.

But to me it seems like he just wasn't in this version of the timeline (like many characters aren't) until Barry pulled him out and retconned him into their history giving him the Kadabra excuse and all. Same universe doesn't mean all the same people exist, it's still a different reality.

I doubt they'll clarify this at all though since it doesn't really matter. Just kind of chicken and egg thing however you want to interpret it.

>>85691688

Thanks, this works for me.

>>85692125
But the rebirth Retcon says this is the exact universe but with 10 or so years plucked from each heroes lives to "weaken them". So Wally lost the Flash family, Barry lost kid Flash, Wonder Woman lost herself, The Titans forgot each other, The Justice League is a different (worse) line up.

Flashpoint had this as essentially a brand new universe set over the top of the old.

>>85692197
But I play Xbox

How I've always told them apart:

>Silver Age
Barry is tall, Wally is a kid
Then Wally gets his own unique uniform for Kid Flash
>Post COIE
Barry is dead, Wally is alive
First time they cross over, Wally has cool white eye things and Barry doesn't
When both eyes are showing, Wally gets green eyes and Barry blue
>Post flashpoint
Wally gets an open cowl.

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>>85691766

I usually hear fans say that Wally West is their Flash. Does this mean that they are pissed off that Barry gets to look like The Flash now? or are they just happy that Wally has returned wearing that ginger fro costume? Also, what is Wally West called now? If Barry is The Flash, and Black Wally West is Kid Flash, does Wally get his own name?

>>85692332
>Wally fans
>happy
They have to deal with Booth, you really think any of them are happy?

>>85691876
I'm saying you don't know what they fuck you're talking about. You're assblasted state has you sputtering out bullshit in a means to alleviate what you're feeling. You'll probably still be bitching years from now because you're an assblasted characterfag who's feeling hurt.

>>85692332
>I usually hear fans say that Wally West is their Flash
That's me.
>. Does this mean that they are pissed off that Barry gets to look like The Flash now
No, there was always multiple Flash's during Wally's run, whether it be time travelling Barry or Jay Garrick having multiple Flash's at once has always been a thing.
> they just happy that Wally has returned wearing that ginger fro costume?
I think the open cowl Flash costume is the best character design going around. It is a homage to his kid flash days, takes what worked really well with his red hair flowing in the open cowl but also brought it into the future with the fact that he is now a Flash.
>Also, what is Wally West called now
The Flash. Both are called the Flash, this was explicitly made clear in Flash Rebirth #1. Again, this is nothing new for the characters.

>>85692361
>They have to deal with Booth, you really think any of them are happy?
Small price to pay. Our character was removed from existence itself, worse still, OVERRIDDEN by an awful character not 4 months ago.

Just having him back, and in a book, is a massive win.

>>85692183
But it's not simply the removed time. He also says that things fell into place to correct for it which makes it a different timeline entirely. "Universe" is just a multiversal vibration pattern. Flashpoint never changed that. It stayed Earth-0 even after it unless you consider Prime Earth an actually separate designation? Because I'm pretty sure they listed both names at times.

>>85692425
>But it's not simply the removed time. He also says that things fell into place to correct for it which makes it a different timeline entirely.
Hang on, you have changed what I said, let's make sure we are talking about the same things. Same universe, changed timeline. So yeah, Manhattan poked holes in time and new stuff fell in the gaps, but it is still the same universe that existed pre Flashpoint. It's not like a COIE happened where actors went back to the point of creation and changed the physical universe.

>Universe vibrational pattern
I'm not sure if they have stuck with that since the 90's anon. It's incompatable with things like the Chain Lightning arc. Where Wally was travelling to as a time no longer exists.

>>85692183
Which in itself doesn't make sense since GL and Bats still had all the pre-nu52 shit happen to them in the five years between JL#1 and their #1s for their own books. Still feels like a half assed way of explaining why they half assed a reboot

Wally generally has a nose guard or open hair. His belt isn't fully connected either

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>>85692397

Howcome Wally West gets to come back and be called The Flash alongside Barry but characters like Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain come back as Spoiler and Ninja Bitch?

>>85692562
>Which in itself doesn't make sense since GL and Bats still had all the pre-nu52 shit happen to them in the five years between JL#1 and their #1s for their own books. Still feels like a half assed way of explaining why they half assed a reboot
My head canon is that Manhattan didn't take a flat 10 year block, but rather on average each character had 10 years of moments taken away.

So in the GL/Bats case, what Manhattan took away wasn't those core stories, maybe they lost character development moments which make Batman less trusting of others now, making him less of a team player and making him worse overall. Maybe Hal forgot a lot of the stuff that went on with parallax and has forgotten some of the lessons he picked up during GL: Rebirth.

It's a poor excuse, I agree and until Johns tidies it up head canon is about the only thing you can go with.

>>85692304
>When both eyes are showing, Wally gets green eyes and Barry blue

Funny thing about that, I think more often than not Wally was drawn with blue eyes because artists would use Barry as a reference. Waid turned that into a funny little plot point in the last arc of his run.

Nowadays it'll probably always be green since he's 100% got his own look and isn't THE Flash anymore.

>>85692649
I'm fairly certain he was straight up blue eyed through most of the Baron and WML runs, not just an occasional mistake

>>85692541
Universes being separated by vibrations is canon again post-Infinite Crisis/52. Anything that happened in the 90s is different because they didn't have a multiverse at all at the time.

I think the main point where we differ is that you believe Manhattan's inference means that everyone who was around before should more or less still be around now in some altered form while I believe that the timeline changing means that maybe they don't.

>>85692614
>How come Wally West gets to come back and be called The Flash alongside Barry
I don't know enough about the other characters to comment, but regarding Wally:

Wally has just as much claim to the title of the Flash as Barry does, he held the fort down for 20 years and almost all of the best Flash stories are actually Wally stories. His fans worked to make their angry voices heard when he was disrespectfully removed from the universe and even after 5 years were still fuming at DC. Protest long enough and loud enough and you will be heard, anyone could look at the state of Vendetti's Flash, compare it to literally any section of Wallys run and see that the character of the Flash had seriously regressed. Anyone who is a fan of the Flash could look at the current offering and realise that all the lore, relationships and character moments they had grown to love had been erased. DC had to react, they had to bring back Wally, that's why he gets to come back and be the Flash alongside Barry.

>>85692649
>Nowadays it'll probably always be green since he's 100% got his own look and isn't THE Flash anymore.
>>85692692
>I'm fairly certain he was straight up blue eyed through most of the Baron and WML runs, not just an occasional mistake
Yeah he was, but Barry never showed up in those IIRC, not outside of obvious Flashbacks. When they started showing up on the same page often they had already got their own distinctive looks (white eyes and then differing eye colours).

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So this Blue Flash is Barry Allen in the future right?

>>85692614
because the Batbooks are broken and still a slave to "there can only be one" mentality

>>85692692
>that you believe Manhattan's inference means that everyone who was around before should more or less still be around now in some altered form while I believe that the timeline changing means that maybe they don't.
Yeah, that's my belief. Unless you are less than 10 years old you must still exist, even if you are massively changed.

>>85692332
People who say that are probably just Wally fans for whatever reason. Some of them probably are mad that Barry gets to be the one who looks like The Flash -- generally for the same reason they're mad that Barry came back and ruined Wally's character and existence.

Wally is called The Flash. Anything else would be stupid, both as a real life statement (admitting Barry's more The Flash than Wally) and in character, as Wally is The Flash. It's a name he earned and something he went through in The Return of Barry Allen.

Someone should post that Mr. Zip page I made ages ago.

>>85692743
I think so but I stopped paying much attention during the Venditti shit

>>85692614

Need to complain louder.

Personally though, I'd be fine with them having their own identities, if Cass's new one didn't suck so much shit.

>>85692743
Yes, but Vendettis run was so poor it will/has been entirely ignored.

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>>85692772
>Someone should post that Mr. Zip page I made ages ago.

useful for both DAT LINDA and nickname discussions

>>85692614
Narratively? Because Wally remembers being The Flash so he calls himself The Flash. Cass and Steph don't remember their old days as heroes and have no reason to start trying to take on the Batgirl name. And probably never will, given DC's stupidity.

The thing about Wally is he doesn't really have a name to fall back on. He can't be Kid Flash -- that'd be even stupider than DC could muster. He's just always been The Flash as a superhero. Cass and Steph have Black Bat and Spoiler...though Cass is going by Orphan now which is lame.

>>85692772
>Some of them probably are mad that Barry gets to be the one who looks like The Flash
Honestly I haven't seen this. Most love the Kid Flash / Flash hybrid look. It's not the same as when Barry came back and ruined Wally, Wally exists as his own entity now, not something being overwritten and retconned out of existence by Barry.

>>85692780
Black Bat was fine, I don't know why they went with this Orphan shit

>>85691111
>implying the speed force manifests as one color
>Implying you can explain the speed force
>Implying you have to think about the speed force

There's two things you need to know about the speed Force
1) It's speed
2) It's a force

Anything beyond those two are irrelevant and fanfiction

>>85692596
Wally only had open hair once unless you count ultra recently.

>>85692833
As a Flash? Yeah you are right. Only in Morrisons run with his yellow speed force suit.

In saying that, if you go and read all of the big Wally stories, his cowl always rips and has his red hair hanging out.

>>85692743
Man, I remember when they announced "Wally's" return and everyone was like OH MAN THAT BLUE FLASH IS WALLY AND HE'S MAD.

There was so much hype. Then the most amazing double whammy disappointment ever happened.

>>85692869
They knew what they were doing the dicks.

>>85692806
I think those who have the problem are just a little peeved that, if you look at that costume and aren't a recent comic fan, you won't know it's The Flash. You'll think it's maybe some Flash side character. He looks like a Flash rip off rather than The Flash like he used to to casuals.

The error there is caring what casuals think.

>>85692794
>dose nips
>dat shirt
>dose shorts
>dat hair
>dat underboob
>DAT LINDA
Rebirth can't bring her back soon enough.

>>85691994

>thick, black 'lightning bolts'

>>85692922
I'm not going to complain if DC wants to drive new fans towards Barry for simplicity as well as synergy.

Wally operates best as the offshoot who took up the mantle and did more with it than Barry ever did.

I can understand that Wally and Impulse's origin stories are not straight forward and not new comer friendly, so let them read Barry, learn the lore and then they can come to Speedforce (make it happen Johns) to see Wally and Bart.

>>85691728
>Wally who never became Flash (because Barry never died).
>because Post-crisis Superman, Pre-Crisis Supergirl, Pre-Crisis Barry and Zero Hour Parallax beat the Anti-Monitor
Shit, that didn't occur to me.

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>>85692794

>WAL-LEEEE!
>WALHEE HEE HEE--
>HA HA HA HA !

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>>85692940
We've seen her a little, I don't mind the short hair

>Booth art though, rip in peace

>>85693048
I don't like it. Never liked Linda with short hair.

>>85693032
>because Barry never died
Has this been shown to have now not happened though?

>>85693032
Not just that, before Convergence Flashpoint "reset" the universe to a point in time where Barry's early in his career. He's younger and hasn't died. This obviously retcons Wally.

>>85693091
No one has mentioned the crisis. It was never a thing. And Barry's way too young. The only time it was shown was when Metron was talking about how the universe has been reset a half dozen times.

>>85693007
That's really the problem with Barry. The second you bring him back he's always going to be in The Flash and Wally's always going to be in whatever B-team book they toss out there that'll never survive and will be cancelled.

This is what happened the original Flash Rebirth, only preemptively. Barry comes back, everyone else is deemed secondary and unimportant.

>>85693120
>No one has mentioned the crisis. It was never a thing
That doesn't logically follow.
>Barry's way too young
Flash's don't age normally and Barry isn't that young.

Flash Rebirth #1 showed silver age Barry Allen killing Thawne with the old neck snap, the trial and capture by the anti-monitor is the next chapter of that story.

>>85693100
>Not just that, before Convergence Flashpoint "reset" the universe to a point in time where Barry's early in his career. He's younger and hasn't died. This obviously retcons Wally.
I think most of them are in their late 20s now. Bats was early 30s, Wondy was meant to be early 20s but then Rucka changed that to super old.

Fuck, I think that's what pisses me off about all these reboots and fixes. They can never nail shit down at first, and then when they start fixing it up they go "WELL BETTER REBOOT IT AGAIN". At least this will run for another five years before they feel the need to do shit to the continuity again

>>85693177
>The second you bring him back he's always going to be in The Flash and Wally's always going to be in whatever B-team book they toss out there that'll never survive and will be cancelled.
There are a lot of spin off characters that have held down their own books. Dick Grayson has a fortnightly solo and I think he is certainly comparable to Wally.

>>85693120
COIE didn't happen in the current character history of everyone but we don't really know know if Wally's new 52 history might not have included some other alternate version of him being the Flash in this timeline like how Dick was Batman even though Final Crisis didn't happen.

>>85693183
Flash Rebirth's visions were explained as the Speed Force trying to get Barry to remember Wally so he could save him. The Speed Force is timeless and multiversal and, as we saw with Wally, clearly capable of giving memories of the previous timeline that was "undone."

The current timeline had ten years erased from it. Part of those ten years is Barry getting together with Iris, going to the future, and then dying in the crisis. The crisis still happened in a weird narrative sense -- it had to to follow the long trail up to Flashpoint. But this current universe, this Barry, has been altered such that he hasn't died. Or atleast no one knows he died in the past universe.

Imagine Wally West in that universe. He just never becomes The Flash. Why would he if Barry's around? He probably goes to college like he was going to and never becomes a full fledged super hero. Never meets Linda, never marries her, never has kids, nothing. That's where this universe's Wally was going before he got disappeared by Kadabra and regained his memories.

Wally and Abra's whole thing is based on his time as Flash and thus the big first plot of Titans.

>>85693224
Batman is such a higher level of popularity that he can support more spinoff books. Flash has literally only ever supported one Spinoff book since the silver age, and that was Impulse, which had a solid run but that's about it.

Comics are less popular now. Flash doesn't sell enough for a spinoff of it to sell well enough to live. I know people are amazed by the current Rebirth sales but in a couple of years it'll go back down to its 30-40k mark, unless some legendary run comes around ala Johns' GL, where it'll be able to support spinoff books...until that legendary run ends, ala Johns' GL.

If Wally West were a Batman character he could support a spinoff. He isn't.

>>85693282
>Flash Rebirth's visions were explained as the Speed Force trying to get Barry to remember Wally so he could save him
I think that was just fan theory. Could you point to where that was said or even implied? It looked like the arrival of Wally caused Barry to regain a bunch of memories, his silver age ending being the big one.

>has been altered such that he hasn't died. Or atleast no one knows he died in the past universe.
These are two very different things though.

>he got disappeared by Kadabra
You are putting to much stake in a last page bait picture. We don't know how much Kadabra played into events.

>>85692197
Kek

>>85693337
>Batman is such a higher level of popularity that he can support more spinoff books
Sure, Batman is massive and can support 14 batbooks or whatever the number is now but I'm not asking for that, just a proportionate number of spinoffs: 1. GL has two books, surely Flash can have two as well. They guy is immensely popular, a household name, successful TV show and upcoming movie.

>>85693241
We do know. He got erased in his Kid Flash costume. He was still Kid Flash when Kadabra got rid of him and made everyone forget him. So, in this universe, he was never anything but Kid Flash.

Assuming things hold true, to some degree, to their earlier careers that would've meant Wally was on his way to going to a boring college and living a boring life.

>>85693307
Not necessarily. Abra Kadabra was first a Barry villain. He fought with Wally as Kid Flash before he ever did with Wally as The Flash. Could've very easily done what he did to weaken Barry, but Wally turned it around on him somehow and made both of them "disappear."

>>85693337
Flash is the same place as GL, main book that will settle around 30-40k. By your own logic why does GL deserve spinoffs but not Flash?

>>85693350
That wasn't a fan theory. Barry literally says "I think the Speed Force was trying to get me to remember you" or something akin to that.

They're not different when it comes to how Wally's career/life would've gone. Why would he step into the Flash's shoes if the Flash's shoes are filled?

The solicits give a little more away, but it's more grounded than guessing at nothing.

>>85693383
GL is still coasting off the legendary Johns run, dude. And these books were green lighted by the GL lover Johns himself. I'm sure Johns might give a Wally solo book a chance if he could make the call (he does love Wally, despite what assholes here will have you think) but it'd hit cancellation numbers within a year unless it was the hottest thing going. And even then it's not like that ever matters. See: Omega Men. A GL spinoff that sold like wet shit despite quality.

>>85693427
>Barry literally says "I think the Speed Force was trying to get me to remember you" or something akin to that.
But that doesn't mean the visions he had were not true memories.

>He was still Kid Flash when Kadabra got rid of him
You are basing this off of a story not yet told. You can't justifiably draw that conclusion yet.

>>85693449
>GL is still coasting off the legendary Johns run, dude.
And Flash hasn't too had similarly legendary runs?

>And these books were green lighted by the GL lover Johns himself.
Who also loves the Flash and wanted a speed force book.

>I'm sure Johns might give a Wally solo book a chance if he could make the call (he does love Wally, despite what assholes here will have you think) but it'd hit cancellation numbers within a year unless it was the hottest thing going.
Let's see how Titans sells, right now that is a Wally book, if it settles good, I don't know why Wally can't have his own book.

>And even then it's not like that ever matters. See: Omega Men. A GL spinoff that sold like wet shit despite quality.
But Wally has sold fantastically for long periods before. It really depends on how big Wally's fan base is, that's what DC needs to work out, how many people pulling Titans right now are Wally fans vs Titans fans vs Rebirth speculators.

>>85693455
We know the memories are true, dude. We know all that shit "did" happen. But it doesn't matter for the context we're talking about right now. We're talking about a 19-20 year old Wally West in a universe where, as far as they knew, AT THE TIME, Barry had never died. Barry wasn't dead. So what would Wally do otherwise?

>>85693455
I'm basing this off the fact that he was wearing a Kid Flash costume when he got back. If Kadabra deleted Wally as The Flash then why would he be wearing a Kid Flash costume?

>>85693500
Flash had one legendary run good enough to support a spinoff. Flash hasn't been that for a long. LONG time. 17 years at this point.

Wally sold fantastically for 1 period. Waid's run into Morrison's run. Waid's second run sold normally, and Johns' run sold well at first, then normally, then so poorly that 5 months after the finale they kicked Wally out and replaced him with Bart.

People seem to forget (or just weren't around) that Johns rushed the finale of his Flash run because sales were dropping, badly, and they wanted to move him to other shit while they figured out what to do with the ailing title. People were tired of Wally. It's why Bart's debut as The Flash sold so amazingly. Then dropped off so hard when it was bad.

>>85693502
How do we know Barry never died?

>why would he be wearing a Kid Flash costume?
Why would he be calling himself the Flash if he was never the Flash?

>>85693389
>>85693502
I think your Kadabra logic is probably right, but for all we know it could be that pre-Flashpoint Kadabra vanished him into the speed force (which did its thing to get Wally's age to match him with everyone else) and somehow shielded himself from Manhattan's changes so he remembers it.

>>85693574
We're talking about in the new 52's history he was never the Flash. Obviously he was pre-Flashpoint.

>>85693569
>Flash had one legendary run good enough to support a spinoff. Flash hasn't been that for a long. LONG time. 17 years at this point.
Because they removed the character that had that legendary run. Now he's back.

>>85690710
This costume is fucking disgusting and I'm glad it's gone

>>85693574
Because I assume it'd have been mentioned at some point in his plethora of Flashbacks that he died. That's kind of a big deal -- dying.

...Are you stupid? Let me spell this out for you.

Wally is calling himself The Flash NOW because he regained his memories. He is unique in that way. Before he died/disappeared, and before the Speed Force restored his memories, he didn't know shit. He was just like everyone else -- rebooted by Manhattan. He lived out his days as Kid Flash like he normally would. He never became The Flash, which is why when this rebooted version of Wally disappeared, it was as Kid Flash.

Again, why would someone who calls themself The Flash and is the Flash be in the Kid Flash costume? Explain that to me. I get why he's The Flash NOW. He has memories of a deleted timeline. But that wasn't the case BEFORE he disappeared. When he was a Teen Titan and shit.

>>85693616
>We're talking about in the new 52's history he was never the Flash. Obviously he was pre-Flashpoint.
Pre-Flashpoint and New 52 share a history.

>>85693337
Johns was about to do that legendary run post Rebirth, but then the reboot came and his plans were fucked up. He planned to take the Flash franchise to the same heights he took GL.

>>85693616
If he disappeared Pre-Flashpoint Wally then he would've been wearing his Flash costume (or no costume) instead of his Kid Flash costume.

There is literally no reason for him to ever wear the Kid Flash costume aside from the period of time where he was Kid Flash. That's when he disappeared.

>>85693646
Legendary runs are by writers, not characters. Waid put out his best shit in his prime and that was awesome, but that's that. Wally isn't inherently superior for storytelling than Barry. Johns' Barry work is about as good as his Wally work, discounting DCU Rebirth which was probably the best thing Johns ever wrote.

>>85693683
>Because I assume it'd have been mentioned at some point in his plethora of Flashbacks that he died. That's kind of a big deal -- dying.
No you can't assume that. You can't assume that just because something wasn't shown in a two panel memory flashback it didn't happen.

>before the Speed Force restored his memories, he didn't know shit
[Citation needed]
>He lived out his days as Kid Flash like he normally would. He never became The Flash, which is why when this rebooted version of Wally disappeared, it was as Kid Flash.
[Citation needed]
> He has memories of a deleted timeline. But that wasn't the case BEFORE he disappeared. When he was a Teen Titan and shit.
[Citation needed]

Your calling me stupid for not buying into your head canon, none of that shit is in the comics. Fuck off.

>>85693726
>If he disappeared Pre-Flashpoint Wally then he would've been wearing his Flash costume (or no costume) instead of his Kid Flash costume.

Easily explained by the speed force choosing to change his clothes to match his new age.

Again I think you are right, but you could be wrong.

>>85693692
They absolutely do not. Some events happened in both but character backgrounds and adventures are clearly different.

>>85693692
No they don't, atleast not recognizably. Everything has been changed to some degree.

Frankly, it doesn't even make sense that Wally was ever a Teen Titan or Kid Flash. Iris and Barry never got together -- Manhattan deleted that. So if that's the case then Wally never meets Barry, never becomes Kid Flash, blah blah.

I think Wally just got truly deleted by Manhattan because of his actions, but the Speed Force preserved him. We all know the Speed Force is a hot for Wally, and in some weird way it seems to be fighting what Manhattan did by returning Wally.

My guess is Wally returned, but the universe course corrected itself and just jammed Wally in how it could. In a no-COIE universe, he'd still be Kid Flash so that's what he showed up as.

Or maybe the Kadabra stuff will show things, who knows.

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>>85693484

>by Bret Booth

>>85693793
>They absolutely do not
Yes they do. That was the whole point of rebirth. This isn't a new universe, it is actually just an adjustment of the old.

>>85693702
The reason they aborted his plans was because Flash Rebirth didn't sell that well. If it had they'd have done the same shit with it that they did with GL Rebirth -- which atleast partially survived the reboot.

Flash Rebirth was a travesty. Wasn't a good book, was massively delayed, and people weren't actually too keen on Barry's return. Too far removed and too well replaced is my guess.

>>85690306

Yeah, Wally is the one of mixed African and Hispanic descent. He's much younger than Barry, far darker in complexion, and way cooler, despite DC trying to suddenly whitewash the character in the Rebirth event by adding a fucking White Wally. It's like MLK never happened, ffs.

>>85693818
The adjustment causes the history of the universe to be different. Are you retarded? Do you think Kara's dad was secretly Cyborg Superman in New Krypton just because he's Cyborg Superman now?

>>85693759
The citation is Titans. He and his friends have memories of being Titans in this timeline. So clearly this Wally existed, at some point, in this timeline before he disappeared. Wally's not restoring pre-flashpoint memories or else they'd be WAY different.

My citation is Titans #1 and Titans Rebirth. Happy?

>>85693846
You're mixing up Wally and Miles m8

>>85693861
>The adjustment causes the history of the universe to be different.
It's still the same core history, just with manhattans 10 years of adjustment. As of right now we don't know what those are.
>>85693864
Because it's a shared timeline.

>So clearly this Wally existed, at some point, in this timeline before he disappeared. Wally's not restoring pre-flashpoint memories or else they'd be WAY different.
That's exactly what he is doing.

>>85693818
Yes, and if one of those adjustments is "Barry never dies because COIE never happened" then what the fuck do you think is the repercussions of that?

If Barry had died fighting the Anti-Monitor, don't you think that would've come up during the very recent fight with the Anti-Monitor?

>>85693896
>That's exactly what he is doing.
[Citation needed]

>>85690306
Wally's mask has white coverings over his eyes, Barry's doesn't.

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Inferiorspeeeedsterspleasegoooooo

>>85693896
It is clearly not the same core history, considering how everything's fucking different?

>>85693887
Ignore him, it's b8

>>85693896
>As of right now we don't know what those are.

But we fucking do because we've read comics set in this universe for the past 5 years. The history of this current reality is different because of Manhattan. That's literally what they've fucking said.

>>85693904
>"Barry never dies because COIE never happened"
You don't know that. That has not been shown. That has not been implied.

>If Barry had died fighting the Anti-Monitor, don't you think that would've come up during the very recent fight with the Anti-Monitor?
No, because that's before Wally showed up and started giving everyone their memory back.
>>85693926
Rebirth, Flash Rebirth, Titans Rebirth.

>>85693946
>considering how everything's fucking different?
Only the things Manhattan altered, which we don't know. Anything you fill in yourself is head canon.

>>85693951
>The history of this current reality is different because of Manhattan. That's literally what they've fucking said.
Because they didn't have their memories. What we were shown in new 52 was not the full history.

>>85693981
We know lots of things! For instance, literally every comic that has been printed for the last 5 years is really fucking different, and based on a way different series of events.

You know, like how the Justice League's founding was completely different!

And yes, obviously COIE never happened. No one here even knew about the anti-monitor -- hilariously, too considering GL (which retained lots of its history) dealt with the Anti-Monitor multiple times outside of COIE.

So yes, the singular event that killed Barry is not a part of this current continuity -- atleast not in a way anyone is aware of. And if no one is aware of it then why the fuck would Wally have ever been The Flash? And why the fuck would he still be wearing his Kid Flash costume?

>>85694003
...It's not just their memories. They are different. They're younger, primarily. Events just did not happen.

Wally doesn't magically restore pre-flashpoint memories when he touches someone. Barry didn't suddenly remember him and Iris were married. Wally had to inform him of what he did.

The ONLY thing anyone remembers about Wally is his time as Kid Flash. He had to tell others he used to be The Flash. Because he's the only one with pre-flashpoint memories. Everyone else is just regaining memories of him from this universe that were long gone.

Show me one pre-flashpoint memory Wally restored since he got back. And no, don't say the Thawne thing because Barry doesn't know about that either. It was a brief vision of something he didn't recognize because the Speed Force was trying to get him to remember the previous continuity.

>>85694038
>We know lots of things! For instance, literally every comic that has been printed for the last 5 years is really fucking different, and based on a way different series of events.
And none of them showed Wally as kid Flash in this history, which is your main claim.

You say "wouldn't Barry have mentioned he died" as evidence that COIE never happened, but ignore "wouldn't Barry have mentioned his sidekick".

>You know, like how the Justice League's founding was completely different!
That's a fan misread. It explicitly says in Trinity War that MM was a founder but left due to some disagreement and Cyborg stepped up.

>And why the fuck would he still be wearing his Kid Flash costume?
And why the fuck would he still be calling himself the Flash?

>>85694003
Are you listening to yourself? The fact that what we've seen of the new 52 is different from pre-Flashpoint means that it's a different history.

Literally that's what it means.

>>85694003
If Wally's powers restored pre-flashpoint memories then he could just touch Linda and blam, everything's fine.

The problem is he can't. He can only restore memories of things that happened when he was Kid Flash...because in this new timeline, that's all he ever was before he disappeared. Barry remembers his Kid Flash days. The Titans remember his Kid Flash days. But no one seems to remember anything about him as The Flash. Why is that?

Well, because it's already been established the original Teen Titans happened in Titans Hunt. That's something Manhattan didn't delete (it was forgotten for another reason). So that means Wally West as Kid Flash still happened in this universe, but people forgot that like they did the Titans.

So Wally is returning those memories, not pre-flashpoint ones.

>>85694099
>Wally doesn't magically restore pre-flashpoint memories when he touches someone.
That's what he does.
>Barry didn't suddenly remember him and Iris were married.
That's actually in a future solicit.
>And no, don't say the Thawne thing because Barry doesn't know about that either.
Oh fuck off, it was most certainly a restored memory. Why else would they put that pre-Flashpoint image in his memory?

>It was a brief vision of something he didn't recognize because the Speed Force was trying to get him to remember the previous continuity.
That's headcanon.

>>85694150
>If Wally's powers restored pre-flashpoint memories then he could just touch Linda and blam, everything's fine.
That looks like what will happen in Titans solicits. It's just happened in Titans and it also happened to Barry. All evidence we have points to Wally being able to do this.

>>85692332
>I usually hear fans say that Wally West is their Flash.

Because Wally was THE Flash from the late 80s to when Infinite Crisis brought Barry back for good in 2008. Most modern comic fans are in their early 20s to late 30s, so Wally would be the Flash whose stories would be more prominent in their minds.

>>85694118
I also said "Wouldn't the JL know about the Anti Monitor" considering the half dozen times they dealt with the Anti Monitor. You're explanations real bad.

MM was not a founder in Trinity War. He was part of the JL during the 5 year time skip.

OH MY GOD

He is calling himself The Flash because he JUST NOW regained his memories. When he disappeared he did not have those memories. Do you understand me? Can you process this?

The Speed Force is the thing that can restore memories. It's magic that way.

>>85694161
It's not headcanon when it's said in the book you doofus.

Name one Pre-flashpoint memory Wally restored that couldn't have happened in the current universe. Because it's certainly not Kid Flash Wally -- we know that happened thanks to Titans Hunt.

>>85694207
>He is calling himself The Flash because he JUST NOW regained his memories.
Head canon
> When he disappeared he did not have those memories
Head canon

>>85694240
Point to where Kid Flash existed in this universe.

>>85694251
Why is your shit any less head canon than his?

Atleast he's working from something that is clearly off -- Wally in the Kid Flash costume.

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>>85693484

This costume actually looks fine when it's drawn by... pretty much anyone who isn't Booth.

What the fuck is his deal with insisting on making shit all shiny and reflective anyway?

>>85694251
Kid Flash existed in this universe as a founding member of the original Teen Titans, who the world forgot. Before Wally ever returned Dick Grayson explicitly mentioned there had been a 10th member of the Titans who Bumblebee temporarily replaced, but they still couldn't remember for some reason.

That 10th member was Wally. He says so in Titans Rebirth. Did you miss that?

Wally existed in this continuity already. He just poofed out for awhile and recently came back with super special memories that no one else knows.

>>85694281
>Atleast he's working from something that is clearly off -- Wally in the Kid Flash costume.
In that same panel wally calls himself the Flash. Why is that not equally valid? There is no evidence that Wally is only now regaining evidence of his time as the Flash, there is no link between Kadabra zapping Wally and Wally realising Manhattan is behind Flashpoint.

>>85694331
>Kid Flash existed in this universe as a founding member of the original Teen Titans, who the world forgot.
This is the pre-Flashpoint universe though. So says Rebirth.

>>85694185
>It's just happened in Titans and it also happened to Barry

He clearly gave them new 52 memories not pre-Flashpoint. Did you not read the comics?

>>85694341
Because by that point Wally had already regained his memories.

Here's the timeline.

Wally becomes Kid Flash like normal -> Wally joins the Teen Titans (something confirmed to have happened in this universe) -> Everyone forgets the Teen Titans -> Wally disappears completely (none of the other Titans were gone for good...besides Donna) --> Wally is lost in the Speed Force, which returns his memories as the Speed Force surpasses time and universes -> Wally comes back, now with memories of his time as The Flash despite only ever being Kid Flash in this continuity. This is why he's wearing the Kid Flash costume when he returns. It's what he was wearing when he disappeared, because he had only ever been Kid Flash.

I fully admit some of this is me filling in the blanks. The only thing I'm sure of is he was Kid Flash and he was already a Teen Titan in this universe and that the Speed Force can restore memories.

If Wally had returned in his regular Flash outfit at his regular age I'd be on board with you. But he is de-aged. That means he suffered through the Manhattan rebooting. That's why he says he's younger than he should be.

>>85694439
>He clearly gave them new 52 memories not pre-Flashpoint. Did you not read the comics?
Barry had a memory of killing Thawne.

>>85694364
Oh my god. This is the same universe, but it has been completely altered.

Wally suffered those alterations like everyone else. The consequences being he's too young to have ever become The Flash. Or never would have since Barry never died. Either or is applicable.

>>85694474
That was not from Wally.

>>85694474
That was the Speed Force, not Wally. It also shows him the future with Godspeed.

Wally can only give people memories of him as Kid Flash. Completely different.

>>85694441
>Because by that point Wally had already regained his memories.
Bullshit, he never lost them.

Here is the timeline.

Barry is the Flash, Wally kid Flash. Barry dies. Wally takes over. Flashpoint happens, Wally ends up in the speed force and Manhattan uses the temporal loop hole to wipe 10 years worth of memories from characters, this is the new 52. Wally come out of the speed force and restores memories.

>If Wally had returned in his regular Flash outfit at his regular age I'd be on board with you.
I think the Kid Flash outfit was to help new readers follow on with Wallys story. If he had opened as the Flash in Rebirth #1 shot people would have been confused as fuck. But showing his evolution as a different Flash shows the seperation.

>>85694558
>Manhattan uses the temporal loop hole to wipe 10 years worth of memories from characters

It's not just memories that he took, he took the actual events themselves.

Jesus Christ man, no wonder you're confused

>>85694558
Wally clearly lost his memories! He barely remembers anything right now.

How does your timeline explain him being the Kid Flash in the New 52? Because that happened. Titans Hunt and Titans Rebirth confirmed it.

The Kid Flash thing is wearing your argument falls apart. Wally could've just not been wearing the Kid Flash costume. Show him as pseudo naked living lightning or whatever. There was some thought in why he was wearing the Kid Flash costume.

That thought was literally Titans Hunt. The book he was originally supposed to return in. Titans Hunt and Titans Rebirth confirmed he was already Kid flash in this altered manhattan timeline. So at some point he was already part of this new universe's history. That can't be the case if he was just always in the Speed Force.

I'm trying to fit what I saw into the theory. You're making a theory and throwing shit out that doesn't line up with it because "the readers wouldn't know it's Wally West" despite him saying MY NAME IS WALLY WEST

>>85694523
>Wally can only give people memories of him as Kid Flash. Completely different.
That's a good point.
>>85694619
Here is the big link that breaks your theory for me. If Kadabra zapped Wally, where is the link to Manhattan and Rebirth? The Speedforce isn't known for filling you in with memories from an alternate universe, rather (Flashpoint) it fills in the memories of the current universe. So Speed force visions on Wally's arrival must be from this universe, including Thawne snap.

>>85694558
He didn't take 10 years worth of memories, he took ten years worth of MOMENTS.
First meetings, turning points in relationships and careers, that sort of thing.
As if it never happened, except to Wally, and I guess Barry. Batman knows something's up, but he doesn't have any of the recollection.

>>85694667
>How does your timeline explain him being the Kid Flash in the New 52?
Yes, because I see pre and post flashpoint as the same continuity, with Manhattan muddling to make the difference.

I don't see Post Flashpoint as a different set of continuity, so Wally as Kid Flash in the titans is referring to his pre-Flashpoint time.

>"the readers wouldn't know it's Wally West" despite him saying MY NAME IS WALLY WEST
Nice strawman, that isn't at all what I said. I said that opening with two Flashes (and one we haven't seen in years) would confuse new readers.

>>85694680
There is no link to Manhattan in Titans. They're not blowing their Watchmen load in a B-team book.

The Speed Force is specifically a font of infinite knowledge, friend. Thawne called it as much. The guy who made that up was Johns -- also the guy who wrote DCU Rebirth!

In Flashpoint, only Barry was able to remember the prior universe. Barry was also the only person connected to the Speed Force. So that kind of flies in the face of what you're saying. The Speed Force is the only thing that even slightly prevents the course correcting of memories to the new universe in Flashpoint.

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>>85694680
I'm not posting a theory. I'm posting fact. Manhattan stole the events from time and time corrected for them by having other stuff happen instead. That is the published canon.

>>85694725
Why would the opening have been of two Flashes? Wally was the only one in the opening.

If you mean when Barry drags Wally out of the Speed Force, just have it as him without the suit on for that bit. He's already disintegrating.

Like I said, you're trying to chalk up a conscious choice to reader ambivalence and I'm saying it was written intentionally to fit a certain way. It's a conscious narrative choice to fit with Titans Hunt.

>>85694754
>There is no link to Manhattan
Yet Rebirth shows that Wally is directly aware of Manhattan (even though he doesn't know it's Manhattan). You must explain how he knows about the outside meddling force.

>Barry was also the only person connected to the Speed Force. So that kind of flies in the face of what you're saying
Barry had also moved outside of the timelines and caused Flashpoint, he was outside of the changes (they even had to make up a bullshit reason of Thawne being outside of time at that moment).

> So that kind of flies in the face of what you're saying.
I don't think so, no.

>>85694680
>>85694781
We do not know the details of Kadabra's involvement. It's possible he's just the in-universe reason for Wally's disappearance (like I've theorized that maybe he's just the Lazarus pit that brought Jason back rather than the retcon punch).

>>85694680
If the Speed Force can tell Wally that someone from outside of time and space altered the entire universe and took ten years away from them, it can restore some of the memories of those ten years, dude.

>>85694781
>I'm not posting a theory. I'm posting fact. Manhattan stole the events from time and time corrected for them by having other stuff happen instead. That is the published canon.
The image you posted doesn't line up with what you are saying at all.

>>85694839
>If the Speed Force can tell Wally that someone from outside of time and space altered the entire universe
Can it?

>>85694821
...He knows about the outside meddling force because he was in the Speed Force. Which it outside of time and space. It lets you see any and all realities and all times. It would let him see Manhattan.

I imagine the Speed force intentionally showed it to him because Manhattan fucked with time. HARD. And that usually causes some Speed Force backlash.

The only reason Barry can be outside of time is because of the Speed Force. How are you trying to argue with me about the Speed Force being a plot device?

How does Wally learn about Manhattan without the Speed Force? Where do you think he got that knowledge from? It wasn't just vague knowledge. He got visions of it. He knew a specific amount of time lost. Wally is not omniscient -- The Speed Force is.

>>85694893
...Where else did Wally figure out the universe lost ten years of its history...while he was inside the Speed Force?

Because that's where he learned it. He clearly didn't know about it before Flashpoint. He clearly didn't know about it while he was Kid Flash in Manhattan's version of the universe. He knew about it while hurtling through the Speed Force.

>>85694862
How does it not line up?

>As our time lines reformed, someone stole 10 years from us. A decade was removed like a jenga piece. I don't know exactly how or why, but it changed everything.

Manhattan stole 10 years from their timelines and it changed everything. That's not just memories. He literally took the events and it changed reality.

>>85694898
>...He knows about the outside meddling force because he was in the Speed Force. Which it outside of time and space. It lets you see any and all realities and all times. It would let him see Manhattan.
Then why didn't Barry see it when he entered the speed force a number of times?

> How are you trying to argue with me about the Speed Force being a plot device?
I'm arguing with you drawing your own hard conclusions about the speed force in the face of ambiguity.

>...Where else did Wally figure out the universe lost ten years of its history...while he was inside the Speed Force?
Because he was in the speed force and himself noted the loss, not the speed force telling him there was a loss.
>>85694949
But if Manhattan took 10 years how does that make Pre/post flashpoint totally different? It can be, at most, 10 years different.

I don't see how your theory explains:

>Why didn't Barry see the time fuckery when he entered the speed force?
>Why does Wally recall that he is the Flash?
>Why doesn't Barry recall having a Kid Flash?

>>85695077
Obviously a butterfly effect situation. Change one thing (or a decade of things) and everything else fucks up.

I don't know why you're denying the canon in favor of your personal theory. It's there in the comic. Johns and everyone else at DC has said it repeatedly in interviews so it's not just a misreading. That is what happened. Deal with it.

>>85694946
>He clearly didn't know about it before Flashpoint
Because it didn't happen before Flashpoint, it happened during.
Which is why Barry and everyone else that knew thought it was his fault.

>>85695077
The Speed Force was different at the start of the New 52. None of this "being dragged in" stuff was around. Maybe they'll explain that but the short answer is they returned the Speed Force to it's previous, higher status. Johns' version of it, since he was the writer, rather than Manapul's.

I'm not "drawing my own conclusions." Wally clearly knows someone or something fucked with time. He has no way of knowing that inherently. He's not the Phantom Stranger. If the Speed Force didn't let him know it what did?

It's not like he showed up on Earth and figured it out after determining what was wrong. He knew about it while he was in the Speed Force, before he ever touched down.

Your statement seems to be that, from the Speed Force, Wally watched what happened, and then literally knew everything about the Earth that was different, to the point where he could calculate that ten years were taken away in bits and pieces. That's ridiculous. More ridiculous than The Speed Force, a literal font of infinite knowledge, granting him the knowledge because he needs to thwart Manhattan.

>>85695135
1. Speed Force was different at the start of the New 52. This is a retcon. It is now the old Speed Force. Obviously Manapul wasn't writing with rebirth in mind.

2. Speed Force restored his memories. As soon as he leaves the Speed Force he starts to lose his memories again.

3. Because Wally was deleted from everyone's knowledge by Kadabra. He's done this before. He made Linda's parents forget she existed. It's one of his moves.

>>85695163
>I don't know why you're denying the canon in favor of your personal theory
That's what I see you as doing.

>>85695237
>If the Speed Force didn't let him know it what did?
He observed it from within the speed force.

>>85695351
Why do you see me as doing that when I've only quoted exactly what DC is saying? Manhattan caused the timeline to change in the new 52 when he stole time. That's what happened. Cause and effect.

Are you just trolling now or something? Why do you disagree with exactly what DC has said and published?

>>85695286
>. Because Wally was deleted from everyone's knowledge by Kadabra. He's done this before. He made Linda's parents forget she existed. It's one of his moves.
If that is what happened what a fucking let down. Deflates rebirth entirely.

>>85695375
Ah, so you're saying the Speed Force didn't let him know, it was just the Speed Force that did it. Neat.

So if the Speed Force can't restore memories then how are The Titans getting their memories back by being shocked by the Speed Force?

>>85695394
That's what Kadabra did to Wally. It's very Wally specific. Wally still knows about and has to confront Manhattan. Kadabra's just the filler for Titans because there's no way they're doing the Manhattan story in a shit book like Titans.

>>85691111
If that covered his hair, that could be a good Flash 2099/Beyond costume

>>85695583
literally Walter West

>>85695394
Funny thing is, before DCU Rebirth, Kadabra was WAY more powerful than Manhattan. Dude could stomp the Justice League if he could get out of his own way.

>>85691994
>So if the white Wally West is Wally West, then who is the black Wally West? Is it just a coincidence that two different people named Wally West became The Flash?
cousins named after the same grandpa. younger wally's dad is reverse-flash.