Sometimes people complain about the themes of nihilism in these

>>85482462
i can't really into bojack. I watched the first two seasons and really the only thing it has going for it are the couple moments that make you think "wow! this show isn't as shitty as it usually is for a minute or two."

Deep insecurity, OP.
Why would that bother anyone? Only if it gets to your core, if you're a weak pussy that never spent a thought on the futility of existence. Most of us had our existentialist periods and then we get over it and now we can enjoy the concept. But these whiny sacks of shit are so fragile that the mere concept makes them go into ego defcon 5. "SOMETHING IS TRYING TO IMPLY WE HAVE NO FUNCTION ON EARTH AND ARE NOT SPECIAL! CRITICIZE IT, DISMISS AS EDGY AND MOVE ON, FAST!"
It's seriously pathetic, must be the flattest, most unfounded piece of criticism I've ever seen.

>>85482462
contrarian faggotry

Bojack's nihilism doesn't make him happy, its just the adult version of pouting.

R&M's is nihilistic, but also has lots of themes about pursuing what makes you happy and taking joy in it no matter what other people think of you.

In before a bunch fags spam
>le reddit XD

>>85482595
bojack's nihilism is contrasted by pb's pov very well though where everyone just jacks off rick in r&m

>>85482462
I love Bojack. The nihilism is subtle and used in melodrama. It makes you think and really dawns on you thoughtfully. That's a sort of nihilism that's entertaining and accessible.

Rick and Peebles nihilism is "LE LOOK HOW MANY WE KILL ONSCREEN SO BLOODY DEAD FETUSES MONKEY-CHEESE WHEEL SO RANDOM XD!" ridiculously edgy family-guy tier nihilism. It's pure shock humor and a fair valid complaint to the show's weakness.

>>85482677
Mr. Peanutbutter is exactly as nihilistic as Bojack, he just makes a concious choice to not wallow in it.

>>85482705
>>85482677
This two faggots never watched more than two episodes of Rick and Morty. Literally cancer.

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>>85482677
This little speech shows that Mr. PB is nihilistic as well.

>>85482705
There are 2 types of shows. Shows like Bojack which are cartoon kino.

And there are shows, so called Adult Cartoons™ like R&M, Ms.Pickles and Superjail which try be groundbreaking with how much gore they show. It's deep and disgusting but entertainment or what have you.

>>85482759
I've watched every episode you faggot. It's a Shock-show. Am I supposed to be woo'd with how intelligent a show is for making two people bury their own corpses or making "The Purge" parody reveling in it's own bloodshed.

>>85482677

I think the point of both bojack and PB is that they live mostly the same life and bojack constantly throws it away because he's a sad sack and his life just gets worse because of it.

Bojack changing his outlook and appreciate what he had than he'd realize his life was great and he'd be happy. Like Mr.Peanut butter.

>>85482924
You are fucking retarded. With the exception of the purge episode, graphic violence is never a focus or the delivery of any joke.
Your tiny tiny mind think adding violence to anything is always for the same effect that you learned to act smug to with Family Guy, you can't possibly conceive the fact that it isn't something negative unless it's used boringly. The amount of self projection with already bring to each episode makes you go "uhjn this is so leddit ughn I'm so above this ughn this is just shock humor", and that's your problem alone, that you're so insecure that you can't watch something without throwing a fit over it.

>>85482924
The point of Rick and Morty burying their own corpses goes hand in hand with the theme of nihilism.

>>85483066
Mr. Peanutbutter's life isn't great. He pretty constantly stumbles into problems like debt or fights with Diane, he just chooses to not focus on it. Which is why something he couldn't just ignore, like the abortion or family health problems affected him so strongly.

>>85482462
A show is about watching a already built character passing through something, not about reflecting yourself in and adopting beliefs.

Much of the "adults" in this thread should already know this

>>85482924
>It has to be either mindless or pretentious

How about somewhere in the middle? You're making yourself upset over nothing.

>>85482759
Hi R!bbit! I'm glad you love this animated tv-show.

But there are people here who aren't libertard fedora-tipper, science-cumming edgelords who self-insert as a drunken espie and think they know better than everyone else. (Shocking I know!)

But for that reason, it's common to find people who unlike the show. Take that in and try to wrap your head around it.

>>85482462
>Rick and Morty
>nihilistic

How is finding humanity and purpose in a multiverse where literally anything exists and nothing is extraordinary nihilistic? That the characters are not 100% ground down by everything that has happened is a miracle of human compassion.

>>85483085
What a load man. You can exaggerate if you want but I've seen the show. There are sprinkled tibits but no sort of delivery like Bojack's that hits home. It's all unbelievably blunt.
"Nobody exists on purpose, nobody belongs anywhere"
Oh okay thanks for the edge? Real poignant do you want an unvote? It's like as impacting as if Mr. Peanutbutter wrote a show.

>>85483451
I'm not saying there isn't a middle ground. Xavier Renegade Angel gives a middle ground.
Rick and Peepee lends towards the mindless. Well not mindless, there's a clear tone to it, but it feels far closer to family guy or Mr. Pickles than it does Bojack.

>>85483547
Do you not understand what nihilism is?

>>85483133

He chooses to not let them ruin his outlook on life. It's all about your outlook.

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>>85482462
>why do people dislike my favorite shows? Is it because they're faggots?

>>85483484
This.
Why do R&M fans get so bent out of shape when people say they don't like their show.

How insecure can you be over a show?

>>85482462
Nihlism is useless and annoying in reality. One of my closest friends is a nihlist and unsurprisingly, he is the most frustrating motherfucker I know. But in fiction it can be good. And it even makes perfect sense for these characters.

>>85482462
>A.V. Club

Did they have an article comparing the two or something? I stopped paying attention to them when the website went to shit a few years back, and all the writers and editors left.

>>85482759
I like Rick and Morty, but I think it's a fair point. For the most part, any sort of nihilism in the show is means to a violent end or that believing in nothing is what always makes Rick right. It really made the season 2 ending really bland to me, because I'm simply supposed to believe that Rick now suddenly cares about his family when there has been no real character arc to establish that he gives a shit about anyone other then Morty.

I find Bojack to be the more human feeling show - because Bojack still wants to feel like there's more then nothing but deep down he knows there's no fixing it.

>>85484020
>Nihlism is useless and annoying in reality

It's just a fact, it's not supposed to draw something productive out of itself. The fuck does it even mean that you think it's "annoying"?

And thanks for the useless anecdote.

>>85483584
Jesus, you are a sad, limited motherfucker.
That line is just stating a fact and you take it so hard, just because of your reddit agenda. It must be fucking shit to be you.

>>85484276
I want summer to be over

>>85483133
>Mr. Peanutbutter's life isn't great.

If that's your criteria, then very few people have a "great life". Getting into fight with your partner is going to happen. You're being naive if you think you're never going to disagree strongly on any topic.

And there's nothing wrong with being strongly affected by your wife wanting an abortion or find out that your close sibling is suffering from a serious illness.

The difference is that, in the end, PB still comes around and talks about it, tries to be supportive, and generally tries to make things positive because shit isn't going to make itself positive.

Unlike Bojack and other characters in the show, who just turn into a big mopey sad sacks that get drunk/high and take out their frustrations out on people whenever they don't get exactly what they want in life.

Bad shit happens to everyone. Being happy and having a "good life" doesn't mean bad shit never happens to you. It doesn't mean you can never be sad or emotional.

>>85484460
>can't think of shit to say
>s-summer!

I've been here for 8 years.

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>>85483484
>tries to act all cool and elite
>find people who unlike the show
>unlike the show
>unlike

>>85484550
And thanks for the useless opinion in regards to the useless anecdote.

>>85484466
>Bad shit happens to everyone

I wish more people understood this.

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>>85484550
You'd think that make your skin thicker but you still managed to flip out and and throw a mini tantrum just because some guy said Nihilism is annoying in real life.

>>85484156
Rick was shown to be full of shit since the start.
During the council of Ricks assassination plot we see him cry at the idea of not seeing Morty anymore, but he obviously denies it and covers it up in aggressiveness.
Then on the broken time episode he begs "If there is a God please let me live, I'm sorry", only to then use him being alive as a proof that there is no god, a typical shit, weak response. He's never a mary sue and the show jacks off around him, like this insecure as fuck anon always insist. Even IF he watched the show, the fact that he can't see those things being showed blatantly on the episodes prove that he's too defensive about the show because of his own insecurities.
It's just a kid terrified at the idea of nihilism, atheism, the pointlessness of everything and the violence of nature, taking on the show.

>>85484641
It's still some pretty dumb statement. A nihilist wouldn't even interact with you.

I don't know if nihilism is the problem.

Bojack I don't have any issue with and I don't see how anything about it is nihilistic. The characters care about things and about each other. Sure, they have their vices, as everyone does, but they try to overcome them and often fail. There's nothing nihilistic about that.

Rick and Morty is mostly just everyone being stupid, an asshole or both. It's funny and creative but when it tries to be emotional I can't get invested in it. But it's not because it's nihilistic but rather because the characters just aren't relatable.

>>85484615
You're welcome.

By the way, you could have responded to the rest of my post but instead you decided to throw a hissy because I called your stupid anecdote stupid.

But what should I expect from someone who calls nihilism "annoying".

>>85483653

The belief that life is without objective meaning, according to Wikipedia. So I'm right. Rick and Morty is not a nihilistic show. There are infinite realities rendering every attempt at finding absolute meaning fruitless, but the characters find it nonetheless, somehow.

>>85484672
>"this anon is insecure for disliking a character."

this is textbook projection.

>fedora, reddit, shock and edge are criticisms in the eyes of these faggot millenials
>god forbid something be indifferent about muh value of life

This is hilarious, what a bunch of pansies.

>>85484700
>>85484769
I don't think you guys get it. Just because the universe has no objective meaning doesn't mean that people can't experience emotions or wants.

>>85484700
I think the reason they rarely if ever use a genuinely good person is that others don't find decent people getting hurt funny (unless they're into Kafkaesque stuff).

>>85484774
None of his criticism applies to the character, so that is his own projection over it, dumbass.
Goddamn, you kids are fucking dumb as bricks.

To correct everyone in this thread, nihilism is believing nothing is real, therefore nothing carries value or consequences.

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>>85484837
You R&M fanboys really do get flustered over people making the littlest criticism to your show, you can't even raise an argument without referring to them as a "dumbass insecure piss shit kid baby".

It's just a show, my guy, take it easy.

>>85484888
There are specific forms of nihilism being discussed here, namely existential and moral nihilism.

>>85482462
It's just faggotry. Art is meant to evoke emotion. People that complain about it are literaly saying "I don't like when people use art to evoke emotions that I don't approve of."

>>85484938
It's not about the show, you little nigger. I couldn't care less about opinions. It's the fact that post modern sjw "hurp atheist edge fedora durp" like you exist on my earth.

>>85484835
Eh, I'm into kafkaesque stuff.

But aside from that, something I like to bring up in Rick and Morty threads is Venture Brothers. Rick and Rusty Venture are, on face value, very similar characters. They're both kinda bitter, cynical mad scientists that are neglectful if not downright abusive towards their family and friends.

I can't stand Rick while Rusty might be one of my favourite fictional characters ever. And it's really just because I feel he's a much more three dimensional character. Of course he kinda has to be because Venture Bros is a more character driven show while Rick and Morty is more about inherently absurd concepts but it's something I can't help but notice. Whenever Rick and Morty tries to make the viewer genuinely feel for its characters it falls flat on its face.

>>85485089
you're a walking stereotype for nihilists, my friend.

>>85484793

But...that's exactly what I've been saying with my posts. Objectively and even existentially, there is no meaning. Yet the characters somehow construct it for themselves. That contrast is the beauty of Rick and Morty for me.

>>85485679
You said in your first post.

>Bojack I don't have any issue with and I don't see how anything about it is nihilistic. The characters care about things and about each other. Sure, they have their vices, as everyone does, but they try to overcome them and often fail. There's nothing nihilistic about that.

>there's nothing nihilistic about that

That's where you made an error. Like you said, there is no objective meaning and the characters accept that and find meaning themselves. That doesn't stop them from being nihilistic though.

>>85482462
People don't like that these shows are nihilist, which is a fundamental fault on their part. The show isn't made for them, they're both essentially character studies on extremely flawed but interesting people who deal with the same existential insecurities that people with low self esteem deal with.
It's not like this is anything new, these are just characters in long-form western animation meant for continuous viewership. A significant portion of Evangelion shows the same kind of questions through a different lens.
Can bojack find meaning in himself rather than fame/admiration from the people around him?
Can Shinji find meaning in himself rather than admiration from his peers/father?
same shit
it just depends on whether you like nihilism or not.

>>85485909
Or people just dont like the show because it doesn't appeal to them, like maybe they don't find it funny?

>>85484784
Way to completely ignore things like presentation and effective dramatic storytelling. It's not like you can just show your message without having a stuttering drunken retard yell it to the viewers face or with lolsoedgy gore and death every episode as a means of "Criticism."

>>85486115
well obviously but we aren't talking about whether people like the show, we're talking about the nihilism in the show

>>85485849

You got me confused. I'm these posts >>85484769
>>85483547

>>85486115
read the op

>>85484769
Finding your own purpose without there being any objective one is 100% nihilism.

>>85486115
That's not the point. the point is people who get triggered about the nihilism, like this loser anon that keeps talking about lolsoedgegore (way to completely miss the point, btw. to that retard) because that's literally all he can see, even though someone that watched the entire series and isn't so on the closet about their own problems and insecurities wouldn't even think that the gore is anything of importance, they probably barely noticed it the first time they watched, because in this world everything is so fantastical that people dying has little to no impact, the opposite of shock value.

Like, I'm yet to see someone mention a certain joke that they feel was constructed badly, but what I see by the bunch is this pseudo argument "reddit gore edge fedora" garbage, that it's barely an opinion, it's just shitposting and buzzwords. The lowest form of viewer and people to talk to in general.

>>85486290

That depends. There are different flavors to it. You are talking about just ONE of nihilisms defining assumptions as being the definitive one. But there being no objective meaning is also the central notion of constructivism, for instance, which assumes self constructed or socially constructed meaning with a possibility, but not a necessity, for objective meaning underlying that. Or buddhism.

Nihilism is often additionally associated with pessimism: Even constructed meaning is derived from no meaning at all, thus constructed meaning is just a delusion. Basically, it's like buddhism or constructivism with infinite whining about it. And then there's moral nihilism, which is self-explanatory.

None of that is present in Rick and Morty. I would argue that Rick tries to present himself as a nihilist in the pessimist and moral nihilist sense, but is actually compassionate and finds his sense in family.

>>85486399
I'm giving that opinion because I honestly don't feel like Rick and Morty has anything to offer. If there was a level of depth beyond the gore and shock value or reddit memeing maybe you'd have a point, but when the entire show revolves around the character arc of one person I already hate the show is reasonable supposed to make me detest, what more of a point is there?

I cannot feel any valuable statement about nihilism made that doesn't come off as edgy and tryhard from a Gary Sue asshole who isn't valuable, values nothing, has no sympathy for anything nor is sympathetic. Why should I care about Rick or anything he has to say? When you take out the Reddit "Everyone is fucking idiots" garbage you don't even really have a character, he's nothing, the majority of all his speeches and 'meaningful' insight is just to pander to the reddit crowd and not any real statement on apathy of the nihilism apparent in life. You have this sad tragic anti-hero character pushed so far they forgot any point they were making in making me care about him or give him meaningful things to say. I mean would I really be able to take anything Bojack seriously if he went on a murder spree once an episode or practically murdered his grandson and dismissed it with a joke about "There are a million of you isn't this aesop clever?"

It's like a grimdark Doctor Who.
We already know the Doctor is a genocidal maniac, but we forgive him because it's a silly charming campy show about plastic aliens and know he won't get with the girl. If it tried to take his loneliness and desperation seriously for more than one episode I'd feel like my skull is being bashed in by the writers for 'artistic effect'.

If they want to make R@M poignant they have to dial back the family-guy tier edge and work on the parts that aren't. His relationships, his motivations and ethics, maybe give him a personality that isn't sarcastic bitter quips. Bojack is half that and isn't as unlikable.
Get what I'm saying?

>>85486789
Anyway that's why I feel like Rick and Morty depends too much on a vapid-nihilism theme. Shocking and disgusting but not really impactful.

I mean the show could even be fucking funnier if they dropped the edge and Aesops and just let itself be honest, a space-scifi Superjail or Mr. Pickles. No message or real themes but bad tasting jokes and everything it set out to be.

I'd rather that than a dishonest show that's trying to milk nihilisistic themes and gray morality for way more than it has any right to take seriously.

>>85482462

Personally, I've never seen the point of nihilism.

>>85486870
that's the point

When did you realize you were going to be a Bojack for the rest of your life?

I was 22.

>>85486563
Nihilism doesn't inherently come with pessimism or a lack of compassion.

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>>85486947

>>85486789
You keep repeating those buzzwords and at the same time you say you watched the entire show. Either you're full of shit and lying through your teeth, or really did watch it and it's still too dense to take in anything about it.
Like another person said, Rick may want to give a nihilistic impression, but he cares about the people around him, in fact they're all he cares about. His entire shtick is a facade created out of fear and pain. That's not me reading into it, that's painted clearly by the show.
You also don't know what Gary Sue even means.
Someone gave you this opinion that Rick and Morty is a pretentious Family Guy, or you made that opinion yourself, and even if you watch the show explain how Rick works you'll stay won't see it because of this shitty opinion bubble you've put yourself in.
Nothing anyone says will change that, you're just biased against it so whatever, keep your triggers and buzzwords, I ain't trying to argue that you haven't seen the show anymore.

>>85487063
I hate this whole
>"You didn't watch enough or didn't watch it!"
Meme that always comes up. It's like reddit-types always expect when someone watches a show they worship they'll glorify it as much as they do and if they don't have a holier than thou opinion well they must not have seen it right?

>His entire shtick is a facade created out of fear and pain.
Yeah I get that he's pathetic underneath.
He has fears and is secures and is lonely, depressed, desperate and utterly in despair all the time. That's the reason for his drinking, real subtle.
The problem is, it doesn't make me care about him. It doesn't make his speeches or aesops more impactful or give an ounce of weight to the meaningless deaths. It's just there.
Unlike with Bojack, his drinking problems and pathetic character isn't what's supposed to make him tragic or interesting. It's how he deals with the nihilistic delivery of the show that makes him feel so brilliant. Rick is just a sad person disguised as an asshole.

Maybe I've got a confirmation bias but the show continually reinforces that with how blunt and in-your-face it is, and I detest that style. Everything is meaningless and sad because Morty said so or is depressing as shit because Rick rants about how it is, okay so fucking what? Good storytelling and characterization isn't a soap-box.
>You also don't know what Gary Sue
A male Mary Sue. A character without (meaningful) flaws that interact with their environment and narrative. One who the narrative and setting places way too much importance and everything gets warped around just for them. A character clearly made for the author's avatar and viewers self-insert. One whose 'way better' than all the rest of the cast and more important obviously. An obnoxiously hypersmart competent character whose most interesting flaw is they suffer from "Depression."

It's amazing how even the premise of Rick and Morty isn't all terrible. It's just the handling of Rick that destroys any investment.

R&M and Bojack both show nihilism in different ways- the depression and the destructiveness of it. Bojack is the depression, but Rick is the destruction "Nothing matters lets trash everything and blow shit up let's destroy society"
he has moments of depression (unity) but ultimately it's a big "fuck you" to the universe.
both great shows.

>>85487258
Edgy-critique fag here, I noticed that. It's interesting.
Bojack has a human element to it, but R&M lacks that in it's storytelling.
Bojack exists in a world where human suffering and tragedy can undo you. Human responsibility and action is what sets up the tragic elements.
R&M just exists in a world where the Universe/Multiverse doesn't care if you live or die and that's kinda sad and dark, but it cannot form any attachment because there's no humanity in any of the characters either. It sets up something to juxapose with the dark hopeless setting but than doesn't contrast it at all, except with more dark hopeless characters.

There's a kind of immoral saturation that kills it's own impact. It's like written from the point of view of a nihilist who says "Everything is meaningless and choice is meaningless blah blah" rather than "Reality is meaningless but we make our own meaning" which Bojack feels like.

>>85487252
Have you ever considered the show is in YOUR face, specifically, and not to the rest? There's literally only one instance of Morty stating that things are horrible, and yet you talk like it's the norm. Rick is the most flawed character in the show and it's hated by everyone, and yet you talk about him being perfect and adored and better than everyone. You keep taking things that ocurred once and blow them out of proportion, and equating all cartoony violence to meaningless shock (which it isn't. Graphic slapstick is a thing). The creators just have improv banters and you make it seem like it's one guy with a hard-on for Rick self inserting into every script (which makes no sense because they so often reinforce how pathetic Rick is, even with his own atheistic beliefs).
It seems like a personal issue, if you ask me.

>>85487478
>and yet you talk like it's the norm
How is it not the norm? The entire show's format is based in Rick and Morty's two-man slapstick routine, with them routinely monologuing and commenting everything with their worthless critique.


>Rick is the most flawed character in the show and it's hated by everyone, and yet you talk about him being perfect and adored and better than everyone.
It's complicated. Yes he is the most flawed. He's also the most hated.
But the latter statements come from a storytelling element in which they try to push Rick as more virtuous, with the virtues of say Diogenes. A tragic figure right? But one so hated and disliked and flawed that it actually justifies him as lofty ideal of the show in which it frames it's point.

If it wasn't trying to frame it like this, the end of the 2nd Season would be meaningless. There's be no value to Rick's sacrifice at all because he's an asshole and not some lofty revered sacrificial lamb whose surrendering himself because he's holier than thou. But clearly not since, among popular consensus the finale was something to cement R&M as the "Greatest cartoon ever444." It's insipid.

> it's one guy with a hard-on for Rick self inserting into every script
Don't be naive.
Rick is Roland's libertarian atheist mouth-piece.
The ambiguity with a narrative reinforcing him as 'pathetic' is supposed to be reflective of how that poor enlightened mindset is persecuted in today's world and society.
The aesop in the S2 finale couldn't be more clear since he "Fought the government and disagreed waagwwaah" with the show again trying to push it's values in place of storytelling.

>>85487696


I think if the show seriously re-evaluated their pacing and took a long hard look at Rick Sanchez, it could have something to say. Like we get several or even a small number of eps with Rick in Prison, re-evaluating his views. Finding something meaningful even, a sliver of humbling. Meet someone maybe, find a hobby. Give speeches about his feelings and situation rather than grandiose views on the multiverse or Space Government/whatever reddit-tier opinion he has.

Humanize him.

But I doubt that, because given the show's format it's a more realistic expectation that Morty and friends will break him out in the first 15 minutes with a superjail-esque bloody sequencing where every prisoner is bloodied and gore'd in the most shocking way possible so we can learn how Rick was right all along after he escapes with his aesop speech.

Maybe the latter is more meaningful. Maybe I'm deluded and biased and that's way better storytelling, characterization, that break-neck paced nilihistic swill which clearly doesn't lessen the shows messages at all. But if I'm wrong I still don't want to watch it.

>>85487696
Not gonna continue the discussion, just wanted to acknowledge you being able to express yourself without shitpost buzzwords (I'll let the absolutely needless 'athesit' pass by). It seems you are growing into a human being with actual opinions. Good for you.

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>>85487696
in your heated scramble for an ideology to lynch it seems you've forgotten something

>>85487757
Buzzwords are the quickest way to express a point, lame as they are. If people see them they're much more likely to understand a superficial critique, rather than read through paragraphs of jargon. Saves everyone time and spares a long essay.

Maybe the show's just not for me and I might be biased. But OP was asking anon's opinions and that's my whole stance on the "R&M uses nihilism as a crutch and not a strength" argument.

>>85487814
Morty has potential.
If Rick can grow to give a damn about him and we see Morty grow out of his role as the pleb-idiot aesop-viewer surrogate I think the show can really get somewhere. I'm not optimistic, but that's a vague possibility.

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>>85487063
>R&M fanboys are about to fucking shoot up the school

>>85487757
I don't really see how atheist is a buzzword? I'm an atheist. So what.
"Libertarian mouth piece" seems like a greater snarl, but that's just my opinion.

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>>85482462
in all honesty, its just really, really boring
Nihilism isint done well in either show, its more of a slow crawl of existential apathy and moral relativism created by a void of any sort of faith any character upholds or strives towards

Nihilism at its core is about the casting off of the shackles of imposed values and memes of the collective to strive towards something greater. In doing so becoming the ubersmech who acts upon his own view of what is true and just and refuses to compromise haggle or trade them. To become Truley good and to strive for good we have to move beyond the notion of good and evil.
For example characters how example the superman and can be said to be truly nihilistic ideal are:
>superman (fucking obvious)
>guts and griffith
>captain America
>popeye

>>85487880
You can spare us your self-admitted lame buzzwords and just be honest. I'll take the paragraphs.

>>85485140
Because Rick is portrayed as a 'smarter-than-thou' demigod who effortlessly bests every problem with his limitless intellect and is the closest thing to perfection in the entire show. He fancies himself the smartest being in the universe and the show accommodates him. Even when he is reckless he is given some reasonable excuse for his actions so that he can never truly be 'wrong'. I find it somewhat ironic that a theme of the show is "How can our small lives matter in a universe so vast?" but the entire R&M universe seems to revolve around Rick and his doings.

I literally just got done marathoning both seasons of rick and Morty and I've got to say there really wasn't that much anti-god stuff as I thought there would be.
Apart from that one "there is no god you've gotta rip that band aid off" in the first episode I only counted two more instance of god being false mentioned
And there were like 3 instances of Rick implying that god does exist
The christmas episode in the first season where he yells how christmas is meant to be about jesus and the second season premiere where he thinks he'll die and prays to get to heaven come to mind
Really the only other cucky thing I reacted to was when Rick and Summer took steroids and went around beating up neo-nazis and the westboro baptist church for just standing around, but you've got to expect that from all American media.
Also the purge episode where they didn't kill the girl who shot Rick and instead teamed up with her and turned it in to some anti-capitalist thing kind of pissed me off.
I'll go back to /pol/ now

If you don't like the show then don't watch the show.

It's clear a huge problem with modern media, especially with the advent of the internet, is that everyone feels entitled to every piece of media made and that it must cater to them.

That's why you get SJWs demanding every piece of media change to suit their agenda, and that's why you get /pol/ demanding every piece of media change to suit their agenda.

Just fuck off complaining

>>85482677
The most meaningless and hollow criticism of anything i've heard today, congrats.

>>85485144
I can think of worse walking stereotypes to be.

>>85488605
tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society anon. It is important to scrutinize what could potentially shape the minds of the young. Having ideals and an agenda through which to achieve those ideals is not a bad thing.

>>85482557
You have to stick up till at least episode 8. This is where it rally start to pay off.

why are these two shows even being compared? rick and morty is a comedy first and foremost, the show is not really concerned about character development

i dont watch rick and morty to see jerry or someone grow as a person, its a fucking cartoon. there's a reason the characters are so one dimensional, especially compared to bojack.

i dont know why people are expecting a late night stoner show on adult swim to have soap opera tier characterization.

>>85488579
Finally someone gets it.
Even when he 'loses' or is punished like in the Season 2 final it's still just to milk the audiences sympathy and one big jerkoff moment to Rick's character, like we're supposed to clap and feel awe struck at what a selfless and sacrificing guy is.

Well fuck that shit.
Rick's an evil sociopath who got what he deserved, don't try to make me fucking care for him show.

>>85482462
I really don't think the shows try to defend or hide the negative aspects of these characters. Rick in particular has some very obvious and major character flaws outside of his nihilism.

>>85488661
This, the show's are trying to achieve different things, but R&M is first and foremost a cartoon meant to entertain with tacky jokes and scribbly dark improv writing. It's not a soap opera.

But R&M fanboys get extremely butt blasted and bent out of shape when people imply the show isn't that high on the Shakespeare square and even more mad when it's compared to shows like Mr. Pickles or Family Guy, since in their view such a piece of media couldn't possibly be compared to their gold standard. "Late night stoner show" is a huge insult to their investment.

>>85488640
No, no, no. Comic books, video games, movies...they're just fucking entertainment. Let the people who make the entertainment create what they fucking want to create.

Trying to shout at them to change what they create is plain retarded.

If you don't like what they're putting out, don't buy it. It's why I don't buy Marvel anymore, because I don't like the direction they're headed. I don't begrudge anyone who does buy Marvel, because it is what they want to buy.

Instead I buy DC because DC is fucking great.

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>>85488579
>>85488675
>Even when he is reckless he is given some reasonable excuse for his actions so that he can never truly be 'wrong'.

Pilot
Anatomy Park
Rick Potion #9
Raising Gazorpazorp
Auto Erotic Assimilation
Big Trouble In Little Sanchez

He was out right wrong and wasn't redeemed for it.

>>85488675
>>85488579
I think you are missing a big point. It's best featured in Erotic Auto-assimilation, but the thing is, despite his knowledge and competence, he is still a miserable fuck up thatneed to drunk himself out to keep going and forget his pain.

Even the smartest guy in the universe can't find satisfaction in his life and it's one of the them of the episodes. He is still miserable despite all this.

>>85488767
Ignore him, that's the one fag who thinks Rick is a fucking unstoppable magical girl who is loved by everyone. Or something along those lines.

>>85488767
Also the plot twist in "Total Rickall" Rick didn't figure out. It was Morty.
Actually I can only think of three episodes where Rick is not wrong in some fashion. Get Schwifty, M. Night Shaym Aliens, and Something Ricked This Way Comes.
The rest he either fucks up a lot or it's Morty saving the day.

>>85488772
>he is still a miserable fuck up thatneed to drunk himself out to keep going and forget his pain.
I keep on hearing this, but it's not an argument at all. I already know he's a miserably, drunken, lonely, pathetic depressed fuckup who hates himself inside.

Same with Bojack.

But there's a huge difference, the series still jerks off to him regardless even when it points out he's wrong, trying to make you feel either 'what a badass' or 'poor rick :'c'.

With Bojack it never makes you try to like him nor extract your sympathies in such a pathetic fashion. You get what you get and even if he fails it's not a glorified jerkoff scene with 9 Inch Nails playing to make you care.

They're both tragic figures, but only R&M tries to tastelessly to try to make theirs heroic.

>>85488793
It's the opposite which is just as fucking bad. The cast and characters hate him, but the show itself and audience/self-insert viewers are clearly meant to love. If you cannot see why such a bizarre contradiction would annoy someone step back a bit out of Rick's ass.

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This is basically what I see whenever I witness Rick Sanchez on stage. Sure he's miserable and everyone hates him, but apply it to this OC and you get my point. How can people not find him grating, obnoxious and terrible?

>>85488767
>He was out right wrong and wasn't redeemed for it.

Where... in those episodes do you think he was wrong? I've seen them and I don't agree. He's portrayed as making mistakes, but never being wrong. There is a difference. A mistake could happen faultlessly. He is always portrayed as being right, even when he his rightness comes with unforeseen consequences (which he never fails to overcome).

>>85488772
It's shallow & contrived. He is 'conflicted' & 'broken' because the writers made him that way. He lacks the verisimilitude of a real human.

>>85488903
>But there's a huge difference, the series still jerks off to him regardless even when it points out he's wrong, trying to make you feel either 'what a badass' or 'poor rick :'c'.
It actually doesn't.

>>85488903
>the series still jerks off to him regardless even when it points out he's wrong, trying to make you feel either 'what a badass' or 'poor rick :'c'.
I think you are mixing up the fandom with the show.
Rick has had several episodes where he is neither the badass and pity isn't there, see >>85488767 and >>85488897
Hell in Rick Potion #9, Big Trouble In Little Sanchez and Anatomy Park he is out right irredeemable for his actions

The fans might try to sell him like you are saying but fans are not really the base line you want with judging a character.
Rick has done a pile of bad shit and Beth is the only one that out right ignores it all. Morty and Jerry call him out on it all the time with Summer usually just challenging what ever the male persons opinion/view is.

>>85488956
It's like I was saying earlier, Rick and Morty lacks any tracings of Humanity to it.

If they'd humble Rick with a real story arc that might be interesting, but humanizing him would be default cause him to admit he was wrong and give up his talking points.

For Rolland and the selective type of viewers that watch R&M, that's paramount to a defeat of any identification with the show they've enamored.

It would be like if Donald Trump got on stage and said "I was wrong guys, I love mexicans and immigrants. We should protect gays and muslims and embrace open borders." He'd lost his fanbase in a heartbeat and would feel like a betrayal.

>>85488974
Yeah right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKHDLZuV-Bs

Even when he gives in, accepts he's put his family in danger and surrenders he gets a fucking musical where he's still considered 'right' and gets to have the last bit of dignity, that ass-patting jerkoff moment where you're supposed to sympathize with his struggle.

Rick is never wrong.
Never once in the show does he experience real suffering or humiliation. There's a scene where he's outright praying to god nearing his doom before the ep turns it around because why would Rick ever be wrong? And he says fuck you I take it back negating the whole scene.

>>85484012
I mean there's a difference between saying you don't like a show and listing subjective reasons and implying your opinions are objective and that anyone who disagrees is retarded/a redditor. One is saying you don't like the show and the other is an attempt to bait people into disagreeing so you can confirm your bias. Of course you already knew all that. Of course this is 4chan where that kind of shit is encouraged but you shouldn't pretend to be surprised about the result of insulting someone when you imply they're retarded for liking what you don't like.

>>85488956
>He is always portrayed as being right
Rick Potion #9 He fuck up twice trying to fix the flu love potion hybrid. He fuck up so bad that he had to move them to a separate reality. He had Morty bury himself and took no pity in the fuck up he did.
Raising Gazorpazorp he was out right wrong who the rulling power was and took it so bad that he almost got himself killed if it wasn't for Beth being there
Auto Erotic Assimilation he pretty much treated everyone like shit because he just wanted to treat his gf (or whatever you want to call it) as a nonstop frat girl and was ready to forfeit his family to stay in this lifestyle

Again you logic is to say Joker is flawless because a bunch of fangirls think he is.

>>85488986
I don't just mean the fandom, it's the way they frame it. It's complicated to explain but, imagine a superhero. They get the standard flowing cape, triumphant music, awe and ahh crowd scene right? Because they're a hero and everyone loves them and that's part of them being a hero. The audience accepts this and these cues remind them that he's the hero, that's a framing device.

Now imagine if it was a Hero who didn't save the day occasionally. But he still got to eat his cake too because the same framing applys, even confusingly.

Now imagine a hero who fucks up, doesn't save everyone, kills people, his family and friends hate him, he hates himself and is constantly wrong all the time. BUT, he still gets the same glitz as the heroic figure from the original example. Wouldn't that be annoying, or just jarring as fuck?

That's what watching Rick and Morty feels like. Rick is a sad fuckup who can still do no wrong in the eyes of the camera or show's framing devices, even contradictory to the show itself.

>>85488903
How bout you gain a shred of self awareness

>>85488998
>If they'd humble Rick with a real story arc that might be interesting
They have you are just ignoring those episodes

>but humanizing him would be default cause him to admit he was wrong and give up his talking points.
He tried killing himself when he was face with being in the wrong and knowing it
Rick is shown to be very unstable through the series

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>>85489063
For instance..
replace this guy with General Zod.
But give him the dazzling reception of Christopher Reeve to show how heroic he is.

I'm pretty sure even with the movie as-is it makes my point, but it doesn't go far enough to reach R&M levels.

>>85488998
Trump did and does say some of that shit, but he also does and says things that imply the opposite. Kind of like Rick in a way when it comes to his family. Not exactly sure what kind of parallel you were trying to make.

>>85489072
>They have you are just ignoring those episodes

Whatever little moments that exist don't translate to real character development. They're mostly take-backs in the same ep, like the God episode where Rick prays and than gives god a fuck you at the end.

>He tried killing himself when he was face with being in the wrong and knowing it
I saw that. It wasn't a development or empowering scene for him, not one where he learned goddamn anything or changed. It was just another milking scene for the viewer.
Literally the equivalent of adding to
>>85488944
>"And I cut myself at night and cannot hold back the darkness woe these wounds will not heal."

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>>85482462
I guess people resent a show that feels like its trying to make its audience feel bad for their lifestyles and beliefs whilst not really offering anything better than a general smugness. I like Rick and Morty but I agree with the people in this thread saying that Bojack Horseman deals with those themes better and never feels like its talking down to its audience in the way Rick and Morty often does. And yes Rick is kind of an edgy mary sue.

Would Venture Bros be considered a nihilistic show? I feel like it has similar themes but always to look on the positive, and is more about people who are slowly self improving than people who are destroying themselves like Bojack Horseman.

>>85489063
Your argument is turning into either:
I don't like Rick because he is not a 100% failure 24/7
or
I don't like Rick because he can be extraordinary at times in spite of him being a bad person.

And on that note you keep asking us for episodes and source that counter your claim why don't you give episodes that enforce your point of view? Because I feel we have given a pretty good counter to your argument but you just keep parroting the same shit over and over.

>>85489112
>not one where he learned goddamn anything or changed
That's kinda the point. Rick is the event horizon of lost causes. Again, he tried to kill himself which is a pretty clear visual that he either can't or won't change who he is.

>>85489121
I don't like Rick because the show treats him like a hero even when he's an amoral sociopathic failure 24/7.

It doesn't matter if he's been actually wrong in the show countless times and the cast points this out. He's still the show's main surrogate and him bring wrong, fucking up or being damaged somehow supports his views and identifications.

Where else has that ever occurred in media?

>>85488579
>Because Rick is portrayed as a 'smarter-than-thou' demigod who effortlessly bests every problem with his limitless intellect and is the closest thing to perfection in the entire show.
Except for most of the times he fucks up, makes things worse or just generally does terrible things. Even when he does something right he only does it despite of his own longing to die and be punished.

>>85482803
I never wanted to shove my dick in Mr. Peanutbutter's asshole more than I do right now.

>>85489121
There was the car-battery episode where we learn Rick had created billions of people inside a micro-verse just because he needed to power his car. Morty calls him out on this, and he's clearly in the wrong, even when he threatens to kill everyone in that universe. How does this episode end?

It rewards and vindicates Rick's smugness by outwitting the other scientist and enforcing his draconian rule. He gets to go out for icecream, grinning with a quip and celebration like always.

Most episodes seem to end like this.
Even when Rick is wrong, it's not like he's ever punished for it, the opposite in fact. He might face momentary setbacks in his ideology but always have the last laugh.

>>85489156
>the show treats him like a hero
That's Morty. Most of the fuck ups it's Morty saving the day. Rick is more like a sidekick in those situations. Rick is just a failure. That's the underlying message here, like Moral Oral the kid(s) is alright but he is tornado of broken and codependent people and you are basically watching them come out the better for this.
And again, you can't even frame an episode to prove your point which at best shows you are talking out of bias then anything to show it.

>>85488315
But that's not showcased in Berserk. Griffith is a parody of that concept, whereas Guts is a far more grounded character who only finds success and fulfillment when he lets himself be imposed upon. His whole "black swordsman" days got him nowhere and only made him closer to becoming a beast.

Berserk's world isn't even nihilistic. Humans exist to suffer so that they can ask why they suffer, then that suffering makes them suffer to continue it's own existence. It's countering this cycle of depressive violence that drives the plot.

>>85489199
>How does this episode end?
them getting shitty Icecream because Beth was allowed to tell the car what to do.

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>Its a culture war thread

>>85488944
But several characters do. In universe. Morty goes along with him because he's weak willed and Beth ignores his shortcomings because she's deeply terrified of him leaving again.

Hell, even Morty usually calls him out on his shit. That's not even mentioning the episode where the moral is that Rick is a depraved and deeply disturbed individual that, while momentarily amusing to be around, leads to nothing but self destructive behaviour. That was explicitly the moral.

>>85482462
These shows are nihilistic with a wicked sense of humor.

>>85488974
>Never once in the show does he experience real suffering or humiliation. T
It happens plenty of time. in the very episode you linked, where he surrender because he has put his familly in major fuck up.

>>85489199
>Most episodes seem to end like this.
You mean 4 of them? Because you have ones like >>85488767 where he isn't vindicated at all. That said I think I see your issue now. It's not that he gets rewarded so much as you hate a jackass not getting his shit kick in every time. Rick being "right" some episodes is feeling like all of them to you, you want him to respond in constant self loathing rather than acting as he pleases and not getting "justice"
So I think you see episodes where Rick is being Rick and you get angry because he is either echoing people you know irl that get away with shit or the idea of someone with such power being so reckless with it really mess with you. We have built enough of a case to show he isn't a Gary Sue, everything doesn't work out for him and he fucks up a lot and gets called out punished for it, but because it's not every episode it eats at you for whatever reason.

>>85489217
Has nothing to do with Rick's victory.

>>85489205
You keep talking about the incidental facts reflected in the show, and I'm talking about how even those facts don't reflect a consistent viewpoint.

What episode treats him, ends and dwells on him as a loser, a failure, an amoral sociopath appropriately? Most eps end with him giving a smug dreamworks grin because "#WINNING" and all I can feel is like a show's trying to make me jerk off to a huge asshole.

Have you ever read the webcomic Least I can Do? It's a similar experience, where a series constantly validates an egotistical narcissist for his tendencies. Yes Morty is "Sad." He's lonely and miserable too and suicidal, but that doesn't really come into play at all in most episodes thus my critique.

>>85489034
>Never once in the show does he experience real suffering or humiliation.
Right it's not like he tried to kill himself or that his friend birdman stated that he is drinking all the time because he is in constant pain and guilt.

>>85489244
Yes, I know.
But it's so god damn bizarre.
>But several characters do. In universe.
They do. IN UNIVERSE.
In the show. In-canon.
This constantly happens.

But not the 'show' itself, divorced from it's content. The show's tone, pacing, direction little details everything is a character in itself, and the most important one. It's a character that doesn't hate Rick Sanchez one bit, but thinks Rick is the fucking coolest cat in the world and will explain to you in depth how epic and awesome he is.
But it doesn't reflect on how his perspective is treated.

I feel like I'm watching Xavier Renegade Angel but with a show attempting to make me root for Xavier and sympathize/self-insert rather than feel estranged and be-wondered by all the fucked up things he does.

>>85489276
>What episode treats him, ends and dwells on him as a loser, a failure, an amoral sociopath appropriately?
Im not sure why it needs to end on that note but we have a few and they have been stated here.
Again it feels more like you are mad he isn't getting shit kick all day every day


>Have you ever read the webcomic Least I can Do?
it is nothing like that, Rick is out right wrong most of the time, and it doesn't validate him. Getting to do what he wants doesn't equal validation.

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>>85489305
The show focus on Rick and Morty
We are getting the world from their perspectives sometimes he wins sometimes he doesn't.
again you seem to just be mad that he isn't some self loathing failure every time you see the show.

>>85489265
That list wasn't mine but doesn't include M. Night Shaym-Aliens!, where he blew up them in the end.

>It's not that he gets rewarded so much as you hate a jackass not getting his shit kick in every time. Rick being "right" some episodes is feeling like all of them to you, you want him to respond in constant self loathing rather than acting as he pleases and not getting "justice"
It's less about that and more the combination of ^that WITH the fact that he is, in my interpretation, obviously the author's mouth piece AND the viewer (Certain specific type of viewers) self insert, and we're still supposed to take his aesops seriously.

I like Bojack. He suffers just as much Rick but doesn't preach. He's not a viewer surrogate or political talking point, he's not always condemned but he's absolutely never validated. He cannot win still. Rick gets away with most of his episode with a "PSST NOTHING PERSONAL KID." + Reddit Lecture of the week which is goddamn annoying.

>, everything doesn't work out for him and he fucks up a lot and gets called out punished for it, but because it's not every episode it eats at you for whatever reason
Part of that reason is the praise this show gets honestly.

>>85489334
What's Rick's win/lose ratio?
How often does he come out crying vs him grinning feeling pretty awesome because the episode told had him come out on top?

>>85489305
The show is mostly a vehicle for amusing surreal bullshit. Rick and his deadpan are what both contrast and facilitate that humor.

But even then, you get the aforementioned episode where he's shown to be a miserable self destructive waste of a brilliant mind who secretly longs to die and be punished. And he's shown as a huge fool when he begs to be taken back.

The only times Rick does anything remotely good in-universe is when he killed the jelly bean rapist and gave himself up.

>>85488944
replace the sword with a liquor bottle and you have bojack.

>>85489349
again it sounds like you are just made Rick has the intelligence to out smart people and situations.
That he isn't losing every time.

>Rick gets away with most of his episode with a "PSST NOTHING PERSONAL KID." + Reddit Lecture of the week which is goddamn annoying.
Seriously it sounds like you are just angry that he can have a semblance of life without suffering for it.
He's an awful character and the show has never tried to hard sell anything else

>>85489316
>>85489281
>he is drinking all the time because he is in constant pain and guilt.
>"I, DARKPAIN the hedgehog am in so much PAIN and darkness, my depression is neverending, the sadness won't stop! But I'm also way too epic and destroyed Eggman's entire base and got myself a got girlfriend too. PSST, NOTHIN PERSONAL KID. btw I'm sad and depressed"

I think it's more the validation that Rick gets which pisses me off more than anything. I don't care that he doesn't really suffer. Bojack isn't crying like a little bitch every episode, but he never gets a smug little PSST NOTHING PERSONAL KID or gets to berates people because of his ego. He loses but he doesn't win.

That's the difference for me. Bojack doesn't win so smugly because horseshit.
Rick does. He's so validated that even when he loses he still wins.
Consider that S2 end carefully and closely and you realize, did Rick really fucking lose? He got his way and caved on his own terms. He got to have his holier than thou moment of awe and show his family his moral superiority. He's untouchable.

>>85489382
What's Rick's win/lose ratio?
10/9 that's not counting the two watching interdenominational TV episodes because all he does is watch TV in them

>How often does he come out crying vs him grinning feeling pretty awesome because the episode told had him come out on top?
now we are dealing with something different and you are echoing what is making you mad, that he isn't a mopey faggot 24/7 for being so mean.


>>85489398
was thinking the same damn thing

>>85489396
>>85489401
>He's an awful character and the show has never tried to hard sell anything else
Don't deny what's at play here.
Justin Roiland stated himself that Rick is "well hung."
What should that statement tell you about Rick's role and relationship between the audience and how we should feel about him? How the show and Rolland intends you to feel about him?

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>>85489412
Rick berates and talks down people as a coping mechanism.
This is stated several times in the show.

>He got his way
No he didn't his best friend was killed and he turn himself over to the authorities that killed his friend and was the whole reason he was on the run.
>and caved on his own terms.
He saved his family the hell of living on that planet just to keep himself safe. That is nothing like his character before this.
Do you want him to grow or do you want him drag through the mud? make up you mind.

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>>85482677
>Mr. PB
>dog who got divorced twice and was likely cheated on by both of his wives
>dog who had to marry a woman 15 years younger than him due to similar maturity levels
>dog who is beginning to see the cracks in his current marriage
>dog who pissed away all of his money on stupid shit
>dog who is so desperate for affection that he still considers bojack (the nihilistic abusive asshole) his friend

What kind of retard considers mr PB to be a positive character? A person showing outward happiness and extraversion does not mean that they have their shit together. Mr. PB and Bojack are two sides of the same coin. Bojack wallows in his problems - "fetishizes his own sadness", while Mr. PB is too much of a beta faggot to acknowledge his life isn't perfect.

What is the difference between nihilism and absurdism?

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>>85489450
>Justin Roiland
The same gay that said Lemon grab has horse cock
The same guy that encouraged Rick and Morty have loving sex in another reality 24/7
The same guy who improved Morty sucking Rick's huge dick before they were even Rick and Morty?

You have serious confirmation bias anon.

>>85489467
As they are defined and not by culture?
absurdism is a concept while nihilism a train of thought.

You can believe in God and absurdism because you are saying there is a god but he doesn't effect anything in this plan of existence. That life is chaotic and with no point till you die to meet said God.

nihilism is the out right belief that nothing matters in the grand scheme. That all actions fall to nothing and that there is never a purpose to any action that there is nothing.

Culturally they are thrown around so much they are like Psychopath and Sociopath where both just bleed together.

>>85489034
>There's a scene where he's outright praying to god nearing his doom before the ep turns it around because why would Rick ever be wrong?
Rick was wrong though and was incapable of solving that predicament on his own.

>And he says fuck you I take it back negating the whole scene.
That doesn't negate the whole scene, it's just in character for Rick. The point was that when the chips were down he immediately abandoned his beliefs if it meant a chance at survival--just Rick and the audience seeing that moment of hypocrisy is enough. Anything beyond that is out of character for him because a main trait of his character is that he never admits to anyone--especially himself--that he's wrong or fallible. Throughout the series he maintains that facade, but it's proven incorrect almost constantly. He's correct a lot of the time but not always, incorrect with regularity and when he's incorrect its usually critically so.

>he gets a fucking musical where he's still considered 'right'
There's a reason they picked the song they did. It's a whiny song by a 27 year old lamenting his self-caused problems and the impact they have on those around him. It's fitting and hardly a hero's send off.

>>85489450
Interesting confirmation bias. As long as we're taking offhand jokes and trying to wring some sort of deeper meaning out of them, how's this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vN_PEmeKb0
If Rick is supposed to be an infallible god, why did they cast him as the stupid dipshit criminal?

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>>85489679
The same reason DC casted Jared Leto as the Joker- in fact the same reason the Joker is a stupid dipshit criminal. Do you get how this works?
It's simple. Because people love that.

>>85489460
>or do you want him drag through the mud?
I'm pretty sure this guy is personally offended by Rick for some reason so I'm guessing this is exactly it. I can't really work it out, since he's a fucking cartoon character, but I guess autism flares hot on 4chan.

>>85489788
i think some people are just really used to the old "egotistical asshole gets shit on" trope.

i think of shake from aqua teens, he's always a complete selfish dick who never learns anything, but at least he gets bloodied and gored at the end of the episode, so its all good and funny.

rick's emotional problems aren't as tangible as physical harm, so they feel like he doesnt actually suffer at all and that somehow makes rick's asshole antics magically not funny.

its pretty obvious rick's the anti-hero, you're not supposed to like him but you should find him funny.

>>85489788
It's a tonal inconsistency.
If they decide to drop the aesops and preaching self-insert garbage, and make him a zany coo coo crazy psychopath like the Warden by all means do so. Atleast than Rick could be funny and entertaining.

But don't talk down to me with a character that feels like Charlie Sheen in the body of Doc Brown. I'm not going to start hearing the Gospel of Rolland through his self-insert like that and rushing to sing praises on reddit. Just give me a fucking cartoon goddamn and spare me the politics/unequivocal show-worship.

>>85489826
I love Aqua Teen. The sociopathy works and is hilarious.

It really wouldn't work if halfway through the episode Shake and Fry started giving me a lecture on how to conserve the environment or fight poverty in section 8 housing, especially if it was cutting into the show and jokes or trying to insert through them? Why would I even want to witness that.

And if people started feeling utterly unable to understand why people wouldn't like such a show I'd enjoy it even less, probably none.

>>85489826
>you're not supposed to like him but you should find him funny.
>you're not supposed to like him
This statement rings extremely hollow, but we've exhausted that topic and back in this thread.

>>85482557
fpbp. Neither show is actually entertaining.

>>85489872
Rick gets to win because he's the protagonist. I'm not sure why this is an issue to you. Do you want to watch a series in which an old drunk scientist just constantly gets shit on because he's an asshole? Rick getting to "win" underscores the nihilism of the show - the fact that he rarely if ever sees consequences for his actions is meant to show how justice and order don't really exist in the show's setting. Which I agree is "edgy," except that it's all played for laughs. Rick doesn't need a solid character arc and to see consequences for his actions because you're meant to be laughing at his shenanigans, not analyzing how the creators of the show are framing his behavior.

>>85482462
Bojack is actually a pretty optimistic form of nihilism. That life sucks and no one belongs, but you can still be perfectly happy and have a good life. It's just that almost everyone in Bojack's life (including Bojack) uses that as an excuse to wallow in their misery. I'd compare it to Steven Universe's form of nihilism, which is all about how sometimes people come out wrong and the world is a big place you may never understand, but the people you help along the way are more important in the long run.

Rick and Morty is just cynical. Everyone except for you is either an asshole or a moron, the world sucks, the only things that matter are the people you immediately know, and fuck everybody else. It's a good show, but I wouldn't be able to stand watching if if Dan Harmon wasn't constantly keeping Roiland's Leddit tendencies in check.

>>85489872
rick doesnt lecture anyone either, the closest he comes is some wildly broad statement about how nothing matters. its not supposed to be some deep monologue, its just reinforcing that his character is a dick.

shake does the same thing, except instead of saying something outrageously nihilistic, he says something outrageously offensive or self indulging.

they both frequently mention why they think they are better than everyone else and both characters are designed in a way that you should hate their actions, but laugh while they do them.

>>85489959
Not that anon, but it gets hard to take the show seriously when it decides to get "serious" with the "feels" because of that. I can't suddenly see Rick as anything close to a good person just because he can feel emotions towards his family. And it's hard to seriously grasp any sort of ramifications for any actions when the entire multiverse of the show is centered around Rick and his immediates, like how somehow the best marital care in the cosmos has no experience in dealing with co-dependency, and because everyone else outside of that is either an asshole or a moron, except when the plot requires a sudden moment of realism for comedy.

>>85489959
>>85489990
The basic idea here is that Rick and Morty is a silly situational comedy that uses its themes of Nihilism for absurdist-style jokes, not to cram any kind of moral down your throat.

>>85490009
Except when it does exactly that and fails hard, like that quote from Interdimensional TV that gets quoted by Leddit-types across the Internet.

>DAE LIFE HAS NO MEANING SO WE SHOULD DO WHATEVER WE WANT

>DAE EVEEYONE ELSE IS STUPID EXCEPT ME

I love Rick and Morty for its surrealism and creativity and humor, but it tries so fucking hard to get serious sometimes and it just doesn't work. It's not a good DEEPEST LORE show at all.

>>85489998
The reason everyone else is an asshole is because a lot of the humor of the show comes from absurdity, which isn't as easily done when there's reasonable authority figures about. I agree with you on the serious bits though, I've never felt anything for R@M's characters, so episodes based around making them feel sympathetic fell flat for me.

>>85489959
>Do you want to watch a series in which an old drunk scientist just constantly gets shit on because he's an asshole?

That depends.
Is it funny?

>the fact that he rarely if ever sees consequences for his actions is meant to show how justice and order don't really exist in the show's setting

Thus OP's query. The theme of nihilism isn't only edgy, it undercuts the humor of the show. There are shows like One Punch man where the main character is invincible and all-power and that's the joke. I don't really see how "I'm an asshole and I get away scott free" is played for laughs, that spiel about truth and consequences might seem like a funny concept in say, high literature? I'm thinking a nihilistic Franz Kafka novel. In a stoner cartoon about magic-science it's just pretentious and annoying.

>because you're meant to be laughing at his shenanigans, not analyzing how the creators of the show are framing his behavior
But I'm not laughing and it's not funny because the show takes itself so fucking seriously. Okay maybe that's an exaggeration but, it takes itself seriously enough that it expects us to stop the pace and anarchic humor of the show to hear Rolland's mouth-piece breathe about some pet topic. Government, religion, economy, gender, family, all with a stereotypical redditor-slant and it's just, it's awful. It's more insulting because they have the nerve to pass these tirades as a joke, when they're not jokes they're just preachy moralizing. The joke isn't even "Rick is whiny and whines" it's about how right he is and everyone else is so stupid and I find statements like
>you're not supposed to like him
Inconceivable with the shows humor. If that were true half the jokes would fall flat.
He only gets to win as the protagonist because he's the vehicle for these non-jokes, even if he's a lunatic. If you stop identifying with him his quips and monologues lose their frame of reference.
Problem with me is I cannot see past his horseshit and never will.

>>85482462
>nihilism
Neither of these shows is nihilist, and you've got to specify what kind of nihilism you're talking about. Moral nihilism? Metaphysical Nihilism?

These shows are existentialist: they propose that humans are not made with a purpose like a spoon or a shovel, that they must figure out what they want to do and be for themselves.

>>85489990

> hate to break it to you, but what people call "love" is just a chemical reaction that compels animals to breed. It hits hard Morty then it slowly fades leaving you stranded in a failing marriage. I did it. Your parents are going to do it. Break the cycle Morty, rise above, focus on science.

> Listen Morty, I hate to break it to you, but what people calls "love" is just a chemical reaction that compels animals to breed.

>Fuck you, Summer! And fuck the government! And fuck me for letting my guard down, which I will NEVER DO AGAIN.

Shake has never given anything on the preachiness of this level. It's like watching that horse show but with a mad scientist give a lesson instead of a retarded purple unicorn.

>>85490009
The weird thing about most absurdist style comedies is you don't have to agree with them.
Aqua Teen's dialog is all nonsense. Most similar shows have absurd premises.
But R&M projects it's humor in such a way that you have to nod and agree with the improv and rambles and so called jokes to find it funny, because the humor comes from a 'ZING', that self satisfied jerkoff laughing chucklefuck you'd get from hearing someone totally OWN a point of view you disagree with.
In other words Reddit-style'd humor.

>>85490206
Shit I screwed that quote

>Listen Morty, I hate to break it to you, but what people calls "love" is just a chemical reaction that compels animals to breed. It hits hard, Morty, then it slowly fades, leaving you stranded in a failing marriage. I did it. Your parents are gonna do it. Break the cycle, Morty. Rise above. Focus on science.

>>85490118
So you don't like the jokes. We could have saved hours of discussion if you just opened with that. Humor is subjective and I respect that yours is different than mine. Though Rick is less a mouth piece for the creator and more his walking exposition machine - you're meant to take his statements as true within the setting of the show, not necessarily real life. What a character says is not always what his writer believes, and even if he does who gives a shit? Rolland isn't out to try and convert you to his philosophy like some kind of Nihilist missionary (which is a great name for a punk band), he's trying to make you laugh. And apparently failing, but not because his character is a Gary sue.

>>85490206
>But R&M projects it's humor in such a way that you have to nod and agree with the improv and rambles and so called jokes to find it funny, because the humor comes from a 'ZING', that self satisfied jerkoff laughing chucklefuck you'd get from hearing someone totally OWN a point of view you disagree with.

Okay, you gave two examples.
> Listen Morty, I hate to break it to you, but what people calls "love" is just a chemical reaction that compels animals to breed.
Rick trying to work off that hypothesis fucked the entire world far beyond any chance at repair. There was no 'ZING', everything's fucked.

>Fuck you, Summer! And fuck the government! And fuck me for letting my guard down, which I will NEVER DO AGAIN.
Again, where the fuck is the 'ZING'? He spent the episode running like a bitch from the police before eventually giving himself up to them. I'm seriously struggling to find the self indulgent punchline you seem to see in these situations.

>>85489465
I want season 4 to be alot of Mr. PB breaking down.

>>85490248
>>85490206
Or maybe characters can have a point of view without it being the personal manifesto of the creators?

What worldview would you give a misanthropic super-scientist with no filter?

>>85490284
The world of Justin Roiland.

>>85489034
Rick learns nothing from this anyhow, from the previews it looks like he just brakes out next season.

>>85482462
who cares. nothing matters.

>>85490266
I don't like the jokes. This makes the format unwatchable for me.
I wish it could be either more absurdist like other AS shows or more dramatic and soap-opera like Bojack Horseman, but it's neither really and functions somewhere inbetween while not accomplishing one or the other.

I mean aren't there plenty of comedians that style themselves just around making political jokes and poking fun at that kind of thing? Maybe if they worked on that angle, but the show's not for me.

>>85490277
>There was no 'ZING', everything's fucked.
It's a statement about the nature of love. The second is a statement on Rick's views about the government. They're both predictable reddit-fedoralord appeasing statements. You can just see the festering tv tropes articles somewhere in which people catagorize them as 'Epic Moments of Win' or 'Badass Take That', or whatever tropes they call it. If you understand reddit and that site, you understand where I'm coming from and how dumb it is. It doesn't seem like an 'Epic Speech' to you because it's not, conventionally, to anyone with good sense. But it panders to a crowd that perceives this very closely (I risk even saying autistically) where every such statement is the bread and butter for them and equivalent to that Brian Griffin/Quagmire speech. If you don't know what I'm talking about however I probably cannot explain it.

R&M is literally a show designed around this moral aesop dissonance-humor shit and that makes it unwatchable, for me atleast.

>>85490206
>rick claims love isnt real
>falls into deep depression when his hivemind gf leave him

you're not supposed to take anything rick says as authentic. you roll your eyes and go "ohhh rick you rascal, you're so full of shit".

when shake talks about all the women on his "jock" or how he doesnt need a credit card because he works for everything he has, i dont get mad that he's preaching to me or something, I know he's hypocritical and its funny because I know how wrong shake is.

its the same thing with rick, except he's portrayed as a super genius instead of a super retard.

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>>85490400
Or maybe it's an absurdist comedy with mostly improvised lines from a man who's wasted in the booth and you're projecting harder than a middle school english teacher.

>>85483484
>fedora-tipper, science-cumming edgelords

Funny you say that when that's what the 4chan stereotype is

>>85490331
>it looks like he just brakes out next season.
Well of course. What did you expect--he stays locked up doing nothing the whole season while the focus moves to the rest of the family doing mostly mundane things and trying to get by in the rapidly changing post-federation earth and the show turns into a slow burn character study?
There are extremely few shows where a title character dies or gets permanently jailed or otherwise incapacitated before the finale. At best you get a couple episodes in a prison, 4 tops, but most you get "the prison episode" at the start of the next season and they're out by the end of the episode.

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>Retards with no idea what nihilism is debating nihilism
I'm glad you're all trying though

>>85490400
>If you understand reddit and that site, you understand where I'm coming from and how dumb it is.
I don't understand reddit and I also don't really care. I don't understand why you do. What they do is completely inconsequential to me and if that is what makes them happy, well, good for them I guess. I don't know why I should be bothered, what have they done that affects me and should make me so angry?

Also, for what it's worth, Justin is not the redditor of the show. In the commentaries he exclusively talks about 4chan and what 4chan's opinion is and this thing he read while on 4chan and he was on 4chan the other day, while Dan Harmon seems to be more into reddit. You're projecting really hard an issue that only exists for you.

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>>85490400
>"There is no god summer, gotta rip that band-aid off now you'll thank me later."

>"Rick and Morty just criticized religion? Those epic scholars, Rolland is a magnificent bastard!"
>"Hey RickFan78 did you hear about that ep?!?"
>"I did! In fact, I did Nazi see that coming."
>"He totally BTFO'd religion out! That escalated quickly."
>"10/10 ep would watch again, feels good man."
>"Finally an ep that tells it like it is! I cannot wait for the next ep."
>"The next ep? SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!
>"You. I like you, this show rules. Fukkin awesome."

>>85490506
except that's not nihilism either.

See >>85490181

>>85484020
I dunno, nihlism kinda keeps me happy.

I know so many people who have wasted years of their life, turning to either drugs, religion, or materialism in order to try to get over the depression they had when they went all mopey about their "purpose in life".

Most of them are either miserable or insufferable about it. I know that humans are social and all that... and that this thread is about judging philosophies... but people put too much stock in finding a purpose and greater meaning.

I just like being happy, so I do what makes me happy. Be a Mr Peanut Butter, not a Bojack.

His nihilism is the colored of constantly being disappointed because deep down, he doesn't want to be a nihilist. He wants to have a grand meaning in his life.

>>85490512
>things that never happened, a cool story by an antisocial anon

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>>85490486
Why put him in, in the first bloody place if hes not gonna a learn a damn fucking thing from it.

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>>85490514
>Implying i'm talking about the show in my statement
I was talking about the anons itt

Existentialism evolves from Nihilism

>>85486789
>reddit memeing

What the fuck is this even supposed to mean?

>>85490514
Nihilism is a broad category of beliefs. It really just means that you reject one or more almost universally held moral or religious positions (or think that it is something that doesn't truly exist).

Existential nihilism is the most commonly discussed nowadays.

>>85490509
Because they really like and it's easy to understand why? It's the same style of humor.
Not observational humor. Not blackhumor. Not Self-Referencing, or hell not even Absurdist humor.

It's a humor that derives exclusively from the pleasure that a few so-called "Provocative" statements and appearing as shocking and contrarian as possible.

If you want further evidence of it just see Roland's statements here.
>>85489487

>>85490525
>http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Awesome/RickAndMorty

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>>85490595
I see zero examples of Rick just being atheist or nihilistic on this page.

There are several examples of Rick being called out on not practicing what he preaches.

Pic related, it's you.

>>85490526
an excuse to get more galactic government shenanigans, which will be a refreshing and new setting.

reminder that its a comedy show with simple characters like the simpsons instead of a narrative show like game of thrones or something.

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>>85490506
Here I helped clarify that diagram further.

>>85490630
but bojack is the mopey one. rick is the one who stays up past his bedtime and smokes cigarettes.

>4chan hates atheism now

What happened?

>>85490630
It's reversed you bellend
Then again - Mr PB and Morty are the Right, and Rick and BJ are the Left

>>85490568
Nhb I'm confused.
Is reddit humor
>There is no god summer, gotta rip that band-aid off now you'll thank me later
or
>But doc I thought licking your balls fixed the time machine

>>85490438
I highly doubt that. Here's the clear difference.
You're meant to laugh at Shake because he's stupid and says stupid absurd things around saner people.
Rick's the literal opposite.
You meant to laugh at Rick because he's clearly smarter than everyone else (Including your parents!!! I mean Mortys parents) and says "Smart" things around dumber people meant to show you're- I m-mean he's smarter.

Understand?

>>85490630

It's the other way around you retard. Bojack is depressed.

>>85490630
You've got that backwards.

>>85490643
Same thing that happened with every social view 4chan had as a counterculture: it got flipped when mainstream culture changed.

Angsty and impotent tweens and teens of the 2010's think everything wrong with the world is diversity quotas and censorship and liberalism.

/new/ reopening as /pol/ and immediately becoming /stormfront/ again doesn't help matters either.

>>85490568
I don't give a fuck if Reddit likes that kind of humor anon, I really don't. I don't care what Reddit thinks or what Reddit's opinions on humor are or anything about Reddit. Why the fuck should I? Why should I be upset at Reddit, I don't use the website, I don't interact with the user base, I don't fucking care about it.

>>85490646
You've got it flipped you wanker
Rick and Mr PB are on the left
BJ and Morty are on the right

>>85490674
The point is that Bojack is wrong. PB is definitely the right, and in the right at that. While the universe is meaningless, it can be pretty cool sometimes.

In contrast, Rick and Morty is all about how shitty the universe is, and about finding happiness despite that.

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>>85490701

>>85490667
Rick, for all his intelligence, still gets himself into wacky predicaments through his own doing though.

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>>85490667
A Marine was taking college classes between his deployments to Afghanistan.

One of his courses had a professor that was an atheist and a member of the ACLU. One day the professor shocked everyone by walking into class, looking up and stating "God, if you are real, I want you to come down and knock me off this platform, I will give you 15 minutes.

Several minutes tick by in silence, when the 15 min. time almost expired the Marine gets up from his seat, approaches the professor and punched him in the face knocking him off the platform and out cold. The Marine simply went back to his seat.

The professor came to, visibly shaken and asked the Marine, “What the heck did you do that for?!”

The Marine said, “God was busy protecting America’s military who are out protecting your right to say stupid shit like that, so he sent me to fill in.”

>>85490643
Three groups.

1. Most Americans (although a smaller chunk of the Americans in the age groups that frequent 4chan) are religious

2. 4chan just likes being contrary to anything it sees as a commonly held belief on the internet (/b/, /v/, /pol/)

3. Some people got in in their heads that just because they disagree with Dawkins/whichever prat atheist speaker... they aren't atheist. Even if they aren't theistic at all. This is the South Park position, which a few teens are a fan of (it ignores the overlap between agnosticism and atheism)

4. We are all idiots here.

>>85490709
>>85490674
>>85490687
Rick's nihilistic views are much closer in line with Peanut Butters who thinks everything is pointless until we die.
Bojack believes he can create his on value which is why he strives and trys so hard.

>>85490643
I'm a functional atheist you twat.
But fedora-tippers and ZING'ers are a different breed of terrible.

>>85490737
own

>>85490721
Yeah it's one thing to be a passive deist/atheist, another to over-identify with that shit

>>85490667
>shake says something shocking and ridiculous
>does the opposite of what he says
>is funny

>rick says something shocking and ridiculous
>does the opposite of what he says
>is not funny and is somehow preachy

i do not understand. they are two similar characters when you break them down. you're meant to laugh at rick because even though he's a super genius, he's constantly hypocritical and getting himself in trouble.

maybe im wrong. maybe harmon and roiland are really trying to push a message across using rick as a mouth piece. it all comes down to personal interpretation. but from the way the show is presented, i think its just rick being outrageous.

>>85490716
>The marine then stood at full attention, and grew five feet taller
>The professor fled, crying jewish tears and ran out to his hybrid car, which promptly exploded
>the remaining students in the class all stood with their hands over their hearts, and began singing the glory of the free market and American exceptionalism

>>85490721
I fucking hate South Park for breeding a new generation of insufferable young republican libertarian cocksmokers.

>>85490737
Rick thinks everything can be analysed and broken down, Bojo thinks he believes he can change
Both refuse to believe the opposite

>>85490747
>>85490737
Spoken like people who were overzealous and cringey as fuck in their teens and can't get over it.

>>85490716
And that Marine's name?

Albert Einstein.

>>85490751
Yeah, I love the modern libertarian movement.

>Main Libertarian party has the position that most government aid would be replaced by individual donations (and good will would be enough to reduce the taxation we have currently that funds it)

>Libertarian candidate for President doesn't donate anything as he doesn't personally believe in it

Or just watch the southpark episode with the underpants gnomes.

>Big company got so big because obviously it has superior products
>Go to McDonald's to choke on a shit tier burger

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>>85490835
>libertarian college freshman trying to tell me my politics are stupid
>ask him about the logistics of privatized roads and shipping routes
>head asplode

>>85490643
most people's experiences with christian/religious people are normally pretty tame. they might come off as self-righteous or a little sheltered, but nothing that really makes you hate them.

most people's experiences with atheists are normally some edgy kid they knew in middle/high school. its much more common to have bad experiences with an atheist.

at least, thats how it happened with me. that might be different if you lived in the hardcore conservative bible belt in the US, which i haven't.

>>85490748
For starters, you're trying to abridge entirely different episodes to make your point? Like Rick giving a sermon about the nature of love is connected to the punchline of him falling in love with Unity. That wouldn't have been apparent at all in the singular of the joke.

Secondly I don't really think it has much to do with "Opposites" or what have you.
Shake does a stupid thing after saying stupid stuff.
Rick does the smart thing after saying smart stuff.

Maybe it would be easier to explain the reason why you're supposed to laugh. In Aqua Teen, Shake's jokes are self-lambasting. The jokes on him. He makes a dumb comment and it's funny in itself because that's the kind of thing he would say. And of course saner smarter characters highlight that humor through contrast.

For Rick there's always a reference of someone else who is supposed to be the butt of the joke. You're not laughing at Rick, you're laughing WITH him AT someone. Because it appears like they set it up so he's right and you get to laugh at whatever he's making fun of. Love, religion, whatever.

And yeah I cannot read Roiland's mind. Just my personal interpretation, I cannot say whether they meant Rick to be right or wrong but it doesn't seem to me like they could just have him say funny stuff for the sake of it.

>>85490878
>most people's experiences with
Stop. You have no idea what "most people's" experiences with anything is. You can only speak for yourself.

>>85490878
That's not entirely fair though, your brain tricks you a bit when viewing groups.

Atheists are almost instinctively hated in the US overall (seriously, even compared to muslims in the current climate, polls show there is more distrust for atheists) being confused with satanists, etc.

It's kinda like when there is that one kid in class you already hate. He can say anything to you, but your first response (even if he was just asking the time) is "Shut the fuck up!" no matter how tame it was.

>>85490913
>Just my personal interpretation
That is your personal interpretation, because it's sure as fuck not what I get or what anybody else in the thread gets. Rick says assholish things because he's an asshole and that's what the joke is and where it starts and stops, he's a crotchety old man who happens to be able to make space ships out of the shit in someone's garage. There's no greater message outside of your own head, which is fine if you want to take it that way, but don't start pushing and projecting that shit out on other people.

>>85490967
oh, im sorry. i guess i cant make any general or blanket statement because im not everybody.

thanks a lot anon, that had me confused.

>>85490995
>i guess i cant make any general or blanket statement because im not everybody.
You say this in jest, but you're correct. You can't make a blanket statement about the interactions of every person in the united states.

Are there insufferable people who brandish their atheism like a third dick because they want to feel superior? Of course, just as there are Christians who do the exact same fucking thing. Every group you care to name has assholes in it.

>>85490967
how do you know he doesnt know most people's experience?

you can only speak for yourself retard.

>>85490995
Different anon... but yeah?

That's what an anecdote is. You can't make a general or blanket statement because you don't have general or blanket experience in something like that. You've probably met less than a handful of atheists in one small region of the world.

Stats, studies and the like. Those allow you to make wide reaching conclusions (and not sound like an idiot).

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>>85491039
Oh dear, I hope you didn't think you were being clever

>>85491039
This is without a doubt the dumbest thing I've seen in this thread.

>First anon: You can't speak for others man, you can only speak for yourself
>Second anon: Hey man, you can't speak for others, you can only speak for yourself! Maybe he can speak for others (but you can't)!

Pure pottery.

>>85491039
>inb4 I was only pretending to be retarded

>>85491050
we're talking about why 4chan and people in general hate athiesm now. there is no objective way to prove this or that its even true. its all conjecture and personal experience. i even mentioned in my post that other people could have different experiences.

all the other responses were peoples' opinions too. thats what the discussion is about.

>>85490973
>""I'll tell you how I feel about school, Jerry: it's a waste of time. Bunch of people runnin' around bumpin' into each other, got a guy up front says, '2 + 2,' and the people in the back say, '4.' Then the bell rings and they give you a carton of milk and a piece of paper that says you can go take a dump or somethin'. I mean, it's not a place for smart people, Jerry. I know that's not a popular opinion, but that's my two cents on the issue."

I would be more willing to believe this if everything he said didn't give him an overt message or agenda. He's really not allowed to just say absurdist outlandish things without a clear colored content.

>>85490512
>>85490509 is right, though. Justin cares more about all of the crazy intergalactic poo jokes while le deep existentialism is more of Dan's territory.

>>85490643
Maybe atheism is usually just a phase that edgy kids grow in and out of.

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So why is it that /co/ routinely splatters in on the consensus that Steven Universe is tumblr and must be lesbian sjw propaganda but when a show with a clear ribbetor atheist slant comes by people collectively lose their shit at any accusations that their show could be biased?

>>85491107
Anon. He's a fictional character. He has his own worldviews. Being an arrogant piece of shit who thinks he's smarter than everyone else around him, he's going to give his opinion to everybody within earshot, and his opinion is going to be that anything that disagreed with him even slightly is a piece of worthless garbage good for nobody.

What the fuck do you want him to say in this situation, anon? Do you understand how to write a character? How would you get across that he's an arrogant douchebag who thinks his view is correct and if anything contracts it, it's that thing's problem, not his.

>>85491135
go back to /pol/ you fucking faggot

>>85491096
Some experiences aren't valid though, if they are misleading because they represent such a small part of the actual way things work.

I'm saying that such a discussion is itself idiotic. All that comes of it is people see things that they want to see, because there is no way to tell apart the way things are from the way one idiot (who posts 20 times) sees things.

>>85491117
>atheism is...
A lack of belief in a deity. That's it. It carries no other connotation. There is no church of atheism. It's not a belief system.

For the record a-theism has been on the rise in developed countries in direct correlation with the availability of education.

>>85491117
>Maybe atheism is usually just a phase that edgy kids grow in and out of

amerifats actually believe this

That doesn't explain why 4chan would hate it either, we are swamped with edgy kids and the flood renews itself each year

>>85491145
This isn't entirely fair to me because I'm not a writer or anything, but I would maybe crack a joke instead of a speech?

Because that kind of retort, 'fictional character' or not is about as subtly thought out as a Jack Chick tract.

>>85491166
I'll go one further than you, anon.

These kinds of discussions, when used simply as a platform for one's own experience, are actively detrimental to the accuracy of one's worldview. The brain is only wired to understand a tribe as being up to 3,000 people max. When we see a hundred people all saying the same opinion online, our lizard brain goes "oh shit, that's a huge portion of the population!" despite there being 320 million plus people just in the united states.

The only way to properly contextualize opinions is per-capita, but you can't do that with text.

>>85491166
you're taking things too seriously. this is water cooler talk, not stuff that we need peer reviewed studies and reports to back up.

the discussion isnt idiotic because the whole point is to hear what other people's personal opinions are on the subject.

>>85491179
>>85491117
>atheism is edgy
It's the exact opposite of edgy. The only people who see it as edgy are the hyper-religious. Atheism and secular humanism are fairly mainstream now for young people.

Edgy kids these days are the faux-libertarians, the trump supporters, the ones railing against "censorship" (by private corporations) and "PC"

>>85491181
As someone who is actually a writer, writing dialogue is rarely about being subtle. The point is to get a message across, not to fellate yourself about how clever and subtle you can be. Hitting someone with a frying pan so they definitely get the message is more effective than hitting them with a pillow and having them not notice.

As for giving a speech or a joke, a joke could possibly work if done right, but Rick doesn't really make jokes all that often and speeches get across the idea that he's an arrogant asshole better than a joke would. The fact that it's long winded and unsubtle is part of the characterization, this isn't a Joss Whedon film where everybody's making the same wisecracks at each other in the exact same voice.

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>>85491181
>drunken narcissist asshole is not subtle in his drunken ramblings
It must be a librul conspiracy

>>85491194
im not saying you're wrong, im just confused on why there were three other opinions posted before mine that were just as anecdotal but mine was singled out as unreliable.

>>85482462

>Bojack horseman
>nihilism

Rick and Morty is because there's literally confirmed infinite alternative realities and versions of us all, so that nothing actually matters, the benign indifference of the universe is something we get reminded of every episode, shit they even have to bury themselves from a different universe, nothing would underline the lack of a cosmic plan that includes you more than that.

Bojack isn't a nihilist, he's a self destructive mess with a sack of issues that are most self inflicted, every character on that show is a neurotic mess, there's no nihilism present for any of the characters, it's ennui if it's anything.

>>85491181
It sounds to me like you're less complaining about the quality or content of the show and more that you're triggered by people espousing worldviews you don't agree with.

My recommendation is that you get the sand out of your vagina.

>>85491268
You were the only one to claim to know "most people's experiences"

>>85488656
He said he watched 2 seasons you mouthbreather

>>85482705
>The nihilism is subtle

>>85482803

>>85483547
>a multiverse where literally anything exists and nothing is extraordinary

pretty much the definition of nihilism there m80

>>85482462
They are the result of comfyfags being loud, obnoxious bitches. Also, tumblrotes who only care about Diversity™ in media rather than the media itself.

>>85491171
>has been on the rise in developed countries
Formal atheism? Still not a major thing outside of maybe some psuedo-Marxist countries like Sweden.

>>85491304
would have been better if i had just said "people's experiences"? it wouldnt have changed my point. i only used the word "most" to show why the negative attitude toward atheism is prevalent.

i also mentioned that people could have different experiences, in the same exact post.

>>85484020

it's more that self-styled "nihilists" are usually edgelord faggots who think "nothing matters" literally means life is pointless and a waste and that they must smugly tell everyone this

>>85491365
>formal atheism
Is not a thing.

It's not "Atheism," as in a structured belief system called Atheism.

It's a-theism. You're a-theist the way someone is a-moral.

>>85491336
Mr. Peantbutter is an unsubtle instance and not a good example. The handling of things like Sarah Lynn went above anything Rick and Morty tried to accomplish.

The closest equivalent is when they literally just have two alt-universe Rick and Morty's explode and are buried for shock value. In fact the show isn't that nihilistic in that melodramatic poignant self, it just has infinite timelines and senseless shock-deaths. It doesn't deliver drama or pretend to be a soap opera at all.

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>>85491154

>>85490476
No. 4chan's stereotype is that of being alt-right, Trump-supporting, misogynistic NEETS.

You're thinking of rationalwiki.

>>85491171
The rise of atheism is also correlated with the rise of population, global warming, and the industrialization of China. What's your point?

>>85482557
Bojacks background Animal gags are fantastic at a bear minimum, and are used at every scene change
I can get not liking the storytelling and humor within the script though

>>85491365
>Formal atheism
The fuck does that mean? You can't just make up terms and expect other people to know what you're talking about.

>>85491428
That's what 4chan's reputation used to be, before stormfucks and contrarian alt-right cumsmears dug their greasy claws in and swung us from one shitheap into another.

>>85491445
>The rise of atheism is also correlated with the rise of population
Atheism has been rising per-capita, not just in absolute numbers.

You're a retard.

>>85484769
>The belief that life is without objective meaning, according to Wikipedia

that's not a belief, that's fact

>>85491428
>4chan's stereotype is that of being alt-right, Trump-supporting, misogynistic NEETS.
Only because Moot was a fucking retard and re-opened /new/ as /pol/.

>>85491495
No, you fucking retard, my point is that correlation isn't causation. There's a correlation between developed countries having more athiests, but that doesn't mean that there's more athiests because the country is developed. God they teach this shit in secondary, pull your head from your fucking ass.

>>85491445
A decrease in atheism is also correlated with a lack of education. When it swings both ways at the same time in different places, it's usually a good indication of a strong correlation.

>>85491525
>No, you fucking retard, my point is that correlation isn't causation
Then you've utterly failed to make your point, probably because you're a moron.

I bet you think all correlation is identical too, and that there aren't ways to score how close the correlation is and how likely two things are to be directly related.

Correlation isn't causation, but that doesn't mean correlation is inherently meaningless you colossal dipshit.

>>85491509
/b/ will always be the newfag board. /pol/ is just better at spilling into other boards (mostly because every fag who gets triggered has to immediately scream >>>/POL/).

>>85491527
Better. But quality education is too strongly correlated to things like availability of information and robust government infrastructure to say that it's responsible for the rise of atheism - I'd argue that countries with good education tend to have more access to information, which leads to disenfranchisement with religion when one is exposed to athiests viewpoints and the corruption of the various religions through the years. The Internet in particular has probably bred more athiests than the Catholic priest who touched you as a kid.

>>85491612
It's not about newfags

When you put up a mostly-unmoderated and anonymous forum where discussing politics is allowed you are inviting in the white supremacist online faction. When /new/ went up to discuss American news it almost immediately devolved into /stormfront/ and was deleted because the white supremacists were spilling over into other boards and basically ruining the whole site.

Years later after he stopped giving a fraction of a shit, and in the hopes of getting more eyeballs for ad money, Moot re-opened /new/ as /pol/ and it predictably became a pit of stormfronters and ELF douchebags within days.

>>85489845
>don't talk down to me
When does the show do this exactly?

>>85491629
Personally I'd lump quality of information in with education, the two go hand in hand and it seems odd to nitpick that.

>>85491369
Or.... you are just making things up that fit your experience.

Another explanation could be that religious people are taught to hate atheists and look at them through that lens. It has more credence than yours, given that atheism has been hated in the US since it was founded (despite atheism changing drastically).

>>85491586
Two paragraphs of ad hominem and a shitty point that only seems new because you haven't gone to uni, fucking bravo. You were implying that athiests are better educated, probably to also imply that they're more enlightened than the rest of the rabble. Because it makes you feel superior, I assume. My point is that you can't prove that education is responsible for atheism, which is what you were aiming for. Fag.

>>85491673
Availability of information is different from education because the citizen seeks it out and it isn't sponsored by the government. If anything, western education downplays athiest viewpoints because of religious lobbying.

>>85491670
according to him anytime a character speaks their mind and it seems hurtful to the viewer.

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>>85491709
>I don't know the difference between a paragraph and a sentence, but I'm going to pretend I'm your intellectual superior

>You were implying that athiests are better educated, probably to also imply that they're more enlightened than the rest of the rabble. Because it makes you feel superior, I assume.
That's some nice projection there, friend. I'm sorry I triggered you. Next time I'll make sure this is a safe space for you.

>>85491709
When you assume you make an ass out of u, not me.

>>85482462
This is 4chan in 2016 OP. All media should be nazi propaganda glorifying the state and Jesus, or it is edgy nihilistic reddit for SJW fedoras. Case in point: this thread.

So yes, it's contrarian faggotry.

>>85491770
Projection would imply that I believe that athiests are both better educated and superior, which I fucking don't, you raging cock smoker. You based all three of your last sentences around buzzwords you don't understand, because you're an honest to god fucktard. If you weren't implying that athiests were better educated, why bring up that there was a "direct correlation" between education and atheism at all? Because your fingers type retarded shit all on their own and you're just along for the ride?

>>85491819
I wouldn't go with superior... but if you group people by education (drop out, high school, college, post grad, etc.) the tendency for atheistic beliefs goes up.

Prayer is lowest in people who have been in education longer. Belief in a god is lower. High school dropouts are more than four times more likely (than those with a post-grad degree) to take the bible literally.

It won't say atheists are better educated because that's not what makes atheists atheists.

I'm not the first guy, but I will say those with higher levels of education are more likely to take atheistic stances.

>>85491525
The beautiful thing is, those developd countries don't stay lke that for long.

Nothing quite destroys civilizations like Liberalism does, after all.

>>85492036
You are correct, yes, though a lot of what you're seeing there is college culture. College kids are more likely to be athiests because they're also more likely to be into counter-culture and whatever their parents hated. Related to this, there's quite a few more athiests in the 16-25 demographic than there are later on, but you could argue for that meaning quite a few different things. The uneducated are also generally poor, and atheism has historically been a rich man's luxury - the idea of a higher power is more comforting if your life is shit than if you've done pretty well for yourself.

>>85491737
Plus, just because there's plenty information is available, it doesn't mean people wil seek it out for themselves. Bread and circuses work because people like them, not because they are forced.

>>85491819
>projection would imply that I believe that athiests are both better educated and superior
All you had to do to not look retarded was google "examples of projection" but you couldn't be bothered

It must be tough having an ego wrapped up in your intelligence when you're so thick

>>85492172
You don't even know what liberalism means, do you?

>>85492177
You are only looking at US statistics. Which is misleading because the US is very religious for reasons that are fairly unique to it.

>>85492286
The twist ending here is that I'm actually an athiest, I just enjoy getting arguing on the Internet. My ego is wrapped up in perceived superiority to my friends and my skill at meaningless tasks just like everyone else, thank you.

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>>85482462
Rick and Morty trigger people with Justice complexes

Bojack triggers people that dislike Diminished Responsibility fallacie

Both of these types also take the show to seriously, really on the same level that treat TV shows as bibles of the way of life

>>85492386
You've got me there. Puritans did a number on the poor old land of the free. Still, there's no western countries I know of that are predominantly athiest, so I maintain that atheism is largely a product of counter culture.

>>85492451
Europe is very close, and the farther you go west (obviously, ignoring Eastern Europe) the more atheist thought you get.

Self identification as atheism is tricky because there are social implications/overlaps with agnosticism.

However, if you ask defining questions (Do you believe in a god?) Europe is pretty atheistic. Overall, (including the East) only 51% of those polled in 2010 believed in a god. That number likely has gone down as well.

In countries like Sweden, less than 20% believe in a god, and even fewer are organized about that belief.

>>85492547
That's fairly interesting, actually. I never looked into stats outside of the US much, so cheers.

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>>85489114
I wanna say nihilistic is the wrong word for venture bros. if any thing it's a realists show having hanabarbara like characters in a real world setting where goofy antics have consequences and children forced to go into dangerous indigenous jungles or w.e

>>85482462
I think people are confusing nihilism with willful ignorance and 4th wall straddling
Things in cartoons don't have to make sense, and sometimes it's funny when characters play into that
In rick's case, all the things that don't make sense to us make sense to him because they are things that exist and he's smart/adventurous enough to have experienced them and know about them
Bojack's case is similar, but more a product of a different universe and comedy styling where ironic events happen and suddenly everyone in the universe just accepts things, like Bojack stealing the D in hollywood and now everyone just calls it hollywoo

>>85493098
To follow up, it seems like they just don't care about life and are total nihilists, but really that's just how the shows and the universes within the shows work

>>85493098
>>85493607
That's just to showcase the superficiality and conformity in L.A.

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Did you guys notice the inversion of values that's happening (at least in /co/), where teens instead of being angsty and brooding are christian devout that reject any kind of nihilistic/existentialist notion, calling them edgy and try hard?

I, for one, think this is fascinating.

>>85494301
The surge in Christianity on has been happening across 4chan as a whole. The most likely cause is that because of /r/atheism being a default subreddit for a while, atheism and atheistic opinions are seen as "reddit".

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>>85491460
>bear minimum

>>85494301
>>85494508
Eh, it goes in cycles.

4chan isn't exactly a bastion of intellectuals or free thinkers. It's an image board made (originally) to discuss manga and anime.

>>85494904
Maybe not free thinkers, but it is definitely a fantastic place to find edgy subversive types. And racists, for some reason.

>>85494301
it's just contrarian thinking, people don't like being pushed

>>85494964
places with anonymity and the bare minimum of moderation always attract stormfront types for obvious reasons

>>85494301
>Trump wins
>/pol/ and then 4chan in general slowly become atheists and either pro-degeneracy ancaps or full-on /leftypol/ so they can keep being contrarian against the establishment
>like pottery

>>85482462
The problem is probably with Americans.

I've heard it said a major difference between American and, say, British writing is that Americans like to have heroes, characters to aspire to, and who like to be around each other. While British writing is full of characters who act like shitheads and would often rather not interact with each other at all.

>>85490751
Republican?

>>85482705
IIm enjoying this discussion and comparisons, and wish for you guys to pursue it further.

>>85482924
You were SHOCKED on them burying a corpse?

Its science fiction nihilism at its core, could be in a classic short story or a Twilight Zone episode.

I dont think alot of people were SHOCKED AND APPALLED at them for burying a body, just the implications of what kind of universe we live in, and how much we matter.

>>85484156
Yeah, I think R&M is a really creative show but a lot of the emotional beats feel sort of hollow to me when taken in context of the show's general nihilism.

Rick and Morty is a good show with a fun fanbase

Bojack is a dumb show with bad animation and a worse fanbase.

I don't give a fuck.

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>>85495904
pic related

>>85495904
You're pretty funny.

>>85482462
I'm not gonna bother reading the thread full of faggots arguing over words they don't fully grasp. However, I think it would be cool if a future R&M episode features another person with Rick's level of giftedness and similar experience that turned out completely different. There are many ways someone could respond to being confronted with evidence that neither they nor anything else really matter. Having an equal foil to the oh-so-smart Rick with similar beliefs yet different attitudes about them would actually be something a "smart" show would do.

>>85499078
The only two ways I see an individual responding to the unrelenting entropy of the universe is either being depressive/destructive or becoming a monk.

>>85483484
That's most of 4chan, it's only really /pol/ that's shit eating retarded enough to use 'unlike'.

>>85489114
I recall that the creators of Venture Bros said that the show was about failure and how they wanted to portray failure as something beautiful.

>>85499163
Not everyone is a 4channer, anon. There are other ways.

>>85499365
Well, go ahead and mention them.
I mean, I'm a nihilist but I greatly appreciate the indifference of the cold void towards human life, instead of resenting it. I wouldn't say I'm a happy individual, but I love how savage nature is, I see great beauty in it. Everything is equally perfect, to a stars dying and enabling life to cancerous cells grouping up.
But I'd still put me with the depressed/destructive people, because that's just how our human brains deal with it. The same way our brains are addicted to feeling and experiencing sensations, our conscience is addicted to existing, it doesn't deal well with the idea not even being real.

>>85499982
Different guy, but I'm just happy.

What's the point in being sad? Nothing matters, and it feels like shit.

Instead, I do things that make me happy. Or will make me happy long term.

I don't want to die, and I know that my sense of self is an illusion... but who cares? I find pleasure in life, and that's the meaning I make of it.

I usually just don't mention it to others, they get jumpy/don't understand the subtlety of it (and given that I am a doc/officer in the military, they don't appreciate the idea I think the whole thing is meaningless).

>>85499078
They already had that hyper smart green scientist living in Rick's car battery. He ended up being very similar to Rick though.

>>85499982
First guy who brought this up, here. When I realized that consciousness is highly flawed and unreliable, and that no particular ideology is worth a damn, I decided to follow my own nature and listen to my instincts. One of the things they told me was to help people. I got a job working in a pharmacy and have never felt better. Instinct is just as fallible and meaningless as anything else. Other people's existences and comfort are as insignificant as my own. I don't care. Helping others with their medical problems makes me happy. Fuck you.

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>>85491497
>nothing is objective, except for nihilism!

>>85491037
>like a third dick
Wait do you normally get two to start with?
Where do I sign up?

Rick and Morty isn't even really nihilist. I mean sure one of the main characters acts nihilistic at times, but the show itself actually carries a lot of complex themes beyond: this is meaningless. Hell, even Rick is often motivated by his longing for personal freedom, or even just wanting to have fun. The "nihilism" in Rick and Morty really only shows up when it's being played as part of the joke.

In Bojack, the nihilism presented is a very different beast. I'm not gonna lie I've never liked this show: I don't hate it, but it certainly isn't in my top ten; and they're I watch it, the more I become convinced that the creators of the show did not originally want to create it as it exists today. And by that I mean I am completely certain at this point that Bojack Horseman started out as a downer live action drama in the vein of the sopranos or mad men, but couldn't survive on its own merits and so was repitched as just another adult animation show. To me, the poor use of nihilism is evidence of this. We have run of the mill cutaway jokes that wouldn't be out of place in family guy or king of the hill, and that's juxtaposed with moments that, by all rights, should be very dramatic and heavy (take the am I a good person scene from season one) but that just can't be taken seriously because the two elements of the show are so hamhandedly grafted together. The nihilistic scenes in Bojack just don't really seem like enough thought was put into them; they seem like they're being used as a substitute for depth, or so the writers can trick themselves into thinking they're writing for a show more complex than it actually is.

TLDR, there's nothing wrong with nihilism, especially in black comedy, but rick and Morty does it right while Bojack's brand needs more care