>In the geek pantheon, the comic “Batman: The Killing Joke”

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>>84853719
>A report by The Hollywood Reporter adds some context to the heated discussion:

>“I don’t think she’s pining over Bruce at all,” said Azzarello. “She’s pining over the violence.”

E>xecutive Bruce Timm acknowledged “it’s complicated.”

>“I actually like that in that opening story both Batman and Batgirl make a series of mistakes and then it kind of escalates, because Batman kind of overreacts and then she overreacts to her overreaction,” said Timm. That’s a very human thing.”

>“There’s clearly an unstated attraction between the two of the characters from the very beginning and I think it’s there in the comics. If you go back and look at the Adam West show, its’ there in the Adam West show,” said Timm. “It’s subtle, but to me it’s always been there.”

>Azzarello has a reputation for being contrarian and cantankerous at times. It’s entirely possible that he was reacting to the way the comment was made—shouted from the crowd by a writer who describes himself as frustrated with the film—and not just the content of the remark itself. But, whether he felt he was being heckled or not, his response is crummy. Even if Azzarello disagrees with fans’ reaction or feels attacked, to be so dismissive sours the relationship that fans have with Batgirl, the filmmakers, and DC as a company. The creators can stand by their creative decisions, sure, but they don’t have to be assholes about it.

>>84853719

So how long until /co/ starts defending the sex scene and everything else as quality because the Great Enemy agrees with them? /co/ would call the sky being blue a SJW lie if they had to.

>Wanna say that again? Pussy?

hahahahahaha

Sources:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-killing-joke-movie-is-a-disaster-right-down-to-its-1784176711
http://www.salon.com/2016/07/25/holy_backlash_batgirl_the_killing_joke_gets_bigger_but_not_better_in_new_film_adaptation/

>>84853785
Some people already do.

>>84853785
It already happened.

>>84853785
It wasn't that bad. it wasn't great but heaven forbid you portray a character as flawed.

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>>84853752
>>84853719
>five seconds of barbara taking her shirt off
>"sex scene"
please.

>>84853719
Azzarello is such a sad sad human being. Needs to learn when to not be a big fucking cry baby when he gets criticised, he acted like a 12 year old kid there.

Killing Joke is probably the best story in DC history, bringing the keks and feminist assblast time and time again.

>>84853719
>Moore has nearly disowned the comic, and is not proud of the way he treated her.

This implies that the reason Moore has disowned the comic is because he feels bad about the way he treated Barbara which is blatantly false. He disowned the comic because he thinks capes are stupid now.

>>84854072
>this is my favourite story because it makes people I don't like angry

You have to be 18+ to use 4chan.

>>84853752

>“There’s clearly an unstated attraction between the two of the characters from the very beginning and I think it’s there in the comics. If you go back and look at the Adam West show, its’ there in the Adam West show,” said Timm. “It’s subtle, but to me it’s always been there.”

Timm, shut the fuck up.

>>84853719
>geek pantheon
Stopped reading there.

>>84854139
>Timm, shut the fuck up.

You mean that deranged pervert asshole with crushing women issues Azzarello?

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This is a non-issue. The "sex scene" is about four frames of Barbara taking off her shirt.

Her attraction to Batman is not the only reason she's Batgirl nor is it at all the focus of her side story. It's actually quite a nice little foil to the main plot with Batgirl meeting something of a Joker-light, their relationship mirroring Batman and Joker's albeit compressed.

If you're upset about the side story you're either an idiot who doesn't understand the difference between comics and films or a whiny brat. If you're upset about the "sex scene" you didn't watch the movie. If you're upset about other people being upset about the "sex scene" you should grow up.

Stop giving these vultures hits.

>>84853752
>>“There’s clearly an unstated attraction between the two of the characters from the very beginning and I think it’s there in the comics. If you go back and look at the Adam West show, its’ there in the Adam West show,” said Timm. “It’s subtle, but to me it’s always been there.”

So basically "They were my OTP when I was younger and now my fanfic is canon!"

>>84854202

Go back to bed Azzarello

>>84854216
>now
I see you're unfamiliar with BTAS, Justice League, and basically everything Timm has done.

Get out.

I mean, the sjws are all freaking out over meaningless shit as usual, personally I just thought the film was too short and didn't have good focus.

Instead of just having a Batgirl story, at the very least have her origins story in there somewhere. Just "following batman for 3 years" is pretty weak.

I felt the film would have been much stronger if it showed Dick leaving and Bruce taking in Babs just to try and replace Dick. But Babs is unfit to be Batgirl because she didn't have that drive of tragedy that Dick had. She just did it for fun and then add in all that sexual tension and stuff.

>>84854247

He didn't add that shit till Beyond and now doesn't mean right now at this very fucking moment.

>Salon

So, overexaggerated bullshit spun in a way that it's "oh so creepy and vile against women"? Why can't bad flick just be bad?

>>84854281
But having Dick around and making it her origin wouldn't fit thematically. The whole point was that the Babs story simultaneously established her in the minds of the audience so her paralysis would have the required impact and mirrored the relationship between Batman and Joker in the story proper.

>>84854077
His exact quote :
> I’ve never really liked my story in The Killing Joke. I think it put far too much melodramatic weight upon a character that was never designed to carry it. It was too nasty, it was too physically violent. There were some good things about it, but in terms of my writing, it’s not one of me favorite pieces. If, as I said, god forbid, I was ever writing a character like Batman again, I’d probably be setting it squarely in the kind of “smiley uncle period where Dick Sprang was drawing it, and where you had Ace the Bat-Hound and Bat-Mite, and the zebra Batman—when it was sillier. Because then, it was brimming with imagination and playful ideas. I don’t think that the world needs that many brooding psychopathic avengers. I don’t know that we need any. It was a disappointment to me, how Watchmen was absorbed into the mainstream. It had originally been meant as an indication of what people could do that was new. I’d originally thought that with works like Watchmen and Marvelman, I’d be able to say, “Look, this is what you can do with these stale old concepts. You can turn them on their heads. You can really wake them up. Don’t be so limited in your thinking. Use your imagination.” And, I was naively hoping that there’d be a rush of fresh and original work by people coming up with their own. But, as I said, it was meant to be something that would liberate comics. Instead, it became this massive stumbling block that comics can’t even really seem to get around to this day. They’ve lost a lot of their original innocence, and they can’t get that back. And, they’re stuck, it seems, in this kind of depressive ghetto of grimness and psychosis. I’m not too proud of being the author of that regrettable trend.

https://www.inverse.com/article/14967-alan-moore-now-believes-the-killing-joke-was-melodramatic-not-interesting

The comic was damn near perfect, why change anything?

>>84854362
On the adaptation :
> As with all of the work which I do not own, I’m afraid that I have no interest in either the original book, or in the apparently forthcoming cartoon version which I heard about a week or two ago. I have asked for my name to be removed from it, and for any monies accruing from it to be sent to the artist, which is my standard position with all of this…material. Actually, with The Killing Joke, I have never really liked it much as a work – although I of course remember Brian Bolland’s art as being absolutely beautiful – simply because I thought it was far too violent and sexualised a treatment for a simplistic comic book character like Batman and a regrettable misstep on my part. So, Pradeep, I have no interest in Batman, and thus any influence I may have had upon current portrayals of the character is pretty much lost on me. And David, for the record, my intention at the end of that book was to have the two characters simply experiencing a brief moment of lucidity in their ongoing very weird and probably fatal relationship with each other, reaching a moment where they both perceive the hell that they are in, and can only laugh at their preposterous situation. A similar chuckle is shared by the doomed couple at the end of the remarkable Jim Thompson’s original novel, The Getaway.

>>84854054
Go away, Rich. Heckling is not criticism.

>>84854355
just have some fastforward or time skip to show how good she is. She's better than Dick in fighting, detetctive work, and everything else anyways.

I just felt there needed to be something more to connect babs and bruce. The movie played out like 2 separate TV episodes. Hence having her replacing Dick in the beginning would at least give Batman's sense of responsibility to his soldiers and more of a father/daughter relationship as well.

And I am disappointed the sex scene was too short and showed nothing.

>>84854480
You got some Barbara bra action. Brabarabrabra.

It seems SJWs are after Azzarello now, and even providing their own revisionism. Some other guy shouted in the middle and wouldn't repeat himself after being asked to. Azzarello called him a pussy after that. But for SJWs, it was for criticism.

Also, Batgirl wasn't like a daughter to Bruce when TKJ was made. She was in her early 30s during that period, before they de aged her to make Dick and her an item.

>>84853785
The sky isn't blue

>>84854596
>She was in her early 30s during that period, before they de aged her to make Dick and her an item.
Wait wut? I always thought Babs and Dick were always around the same age.

tl;dr, Timm's insatiable desire for older guy/college girl action has finally bit him in the ass.

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>jackass makes a publically rude comment that could have been handled a million other ways to be more productive
>another jackass responds rudely to said comment, again that could be handled a million other ways to be more constructive and productive

>only one of these people is a mysognyst ignorant asshat who deserves death at the stake for "fridging" (let's be honest it's not that severe) a female character/enabling timms shitty ship

Facism is cool as long as it's in the name of "good" right?

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>>84854480
>Anon, the side story is important in creating an emotional connection with Babs and as a foil for the events of the main plot
>HURR JUST SKIP AND SHOW SHE GOOD AT FIGHT

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Condense your damn threads.
>>84852101
>>84853719
>>84843001
Use the >>>/co/catalog before making a thread. Read the existing threads. Fuck.

>>84854719
They needed 30 minutes of Bruce on Babs fucking. Not 2 seconds.

>>84854719

>emotional connection with Babs

Considering everyone thinks she comes off as an insane bitch in this version, that clearly failed.

>>84853719
>In the geek pantheon
Four words in and they've already convinced me to disregard whatever they have to say.

>>84853719
>The paralysis part has been part of the “Killing Joke” mythology — which exists at a side to the usual Batman story, a bit like the Gnostic Gospels — and it’s been controversial among feminists

I still don't understand this bullshit, she was a much better character in a wheelchair than she ever was in a batsuit.
I guess because it predated sjw shoving minorities/cripples/deviants into roles its some form of female shaming to em.

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>>84853817
>gizmodo
>salon

>>84854825
>everyone thinks she comes off as an insane bitch
lol wat? Project much?

The theater I went to last night was packed and everyone clapped at the end because Americans.

The only people that care are just gay, because I definitely got turned on.

>>84853785
I'll criticize it for the right reasons not for sjws reasons which is what most are doing

>>84854965
>does not take no for an answer in an obvious danger situation/something she is not ready for
>hatefucks her boss
>fights crime for fun

>>84854618
Yeah, if the sky was blue, how come its black at night? Checkmate, atheist!

>>84854965
>>84855013
>almost kills a guy because he pushed what she thought was her boyfriend into some crates
forgot that part

>>84855073
WE WUZ SKY

>>84854362

Really Moore? You don't particularly care for the direction comics have gone, despite the fact that you were part of the force that drove it there?

What an ass: you had a chance to write Batman comics, you gave us this grimdark status quo, and now you tell us "oh if I could do it things would be different".

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>>84854993
what did I just read

>>84855124
>people can't develop or change their opinions over time
The "status quo" of comic books has rotted your brain.

>>84855004

Protip: They can be the same thing.

Poor writing is poor writing. Having to defend it or change your argument so you can still call the people who agree with you wrong for pedantic reasons is childish.

>>84855146

People can change and develop their opinions over time, I'm not making some tu quoque argument here.

What is Moore currently doing to reverse the grimdark status quo he unleashed on comics and is here deriding? Providence?

Moore made a name of this shit, is doing nothing in his body of work to reverse the course, instead CONTINUES in that same vein, and STILL says it's a horrible thing.

Bab's paralyzed soles was the best part

>>84855124
>says cape comics are bad for trying to make mature stories with characters created for children
>makes outright porn starring the girls from The Wizard of Oz, Peter Pan, and Alice in Wonderland
He's just crotchety.

>>84854719
>Anon, the side story is important in creating an emotional connection with Babs and as a foil for the events of the main plot
except that's obviously not true because it wasn't necessary in the comic

>>84853752
>“She’s pining over the violence.”
It was this. She didn't do it for Bruce but for the thrill of being out in tights and fighting crime.

>>84854281
Pretty sure the story places her after Death in the Family. At one point after Joker appears, it shows Bruce in the cave. And I think you can see Jason's bloody form on a screen. It also shows Ledger's joker sitting in the jail cell. Both done in the movie's art style

>>84855281
Comics are not films. Comics, especially cape comics, are built on the context of previous issues and continuity. You're making something for the initiated that doesn't need to stand wholly on its own; it can work off of the emotional connections established in previous works.

Films must stand alone.

>>84854993
>turned on
>cartoon literally just shows her bra
Jesus anon, I know you're not going to go outside but look at porn or something

>>84854702
I like how you had to get rid of every meaningful detail of the story so you could get to that vague hypothetical.

>>84854020

It's not the graphic level of the scene so much as the entire subplot of Batgirl stalking, fighting, and fucking Batman.

Like...not only did Timm shove his favorite and everyone else's least favorite ship into a movie that didn't need it, but the new scenes were to make Babs more active and give her a larger role in the story. Instead, it became "oh no! Gordon's daughter and Batman's wannabe girlfriend got shot!" rather than just "oh no! Gordon's daughter got shot!"

It improves nothing, adds fuel to the sexism/fridging accusation fire, and is based on a pairing that no one except Bruce Timm likes.

>>84855459
And yet TKJ is top selling as a standalone graphic novel and considered an essential first read for people with no knowledge of Batman in comics.

>>84855529
>Batman's wannabe girlfriend got shot!
Except it wasn't that. She wasn't Batgirl at that point. Joker didn't know she was Batgirl. Batman hadn't talked to her since she quit being Batgirl

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>>84855529
>entire subplot of Batgirl stalking, fighting, and fucking Batman.
A scene is not a subplot you massive waste of skin

The plot is about Barbara's relationship with Franz and her growing obsession with him, Batman, and crime fighting nearly leading her over the brink of insanity.

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>>84855124
He tried to make comics adults could appreciate rather than "comic fans". The industry interpreted this as grimdark=money. He gave up on comics after that, and now only writes them when the money is too good to pass up without caring about the content.

>>84853719
>make her story about the men in her life
>HER story
How the fuck is KJ her story? She's a ridiculously small character in it.

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>>84855551

>>84854596

>professional writer yells out a bar brawl level taunt at a heckler during a panel at one of the largest, most visible conventions in the country while discussing an incredibly unpopular moment in the film he wrote
>only SJWs would find this unreasonable!

jesus dude, go outside once in a while

>>84855551
I never really understood why that is. If you don't know or care about Jim and Babs there's not all that much impact there.

>>84853719
>The paralysis part has been part of the “Killing Joke” mythology — which exists at a side to the usual Batman story, a bit like the Gnostic Gospels — and it’s been controversial among feminists

Why would it be controversial? The story is supposed to be fucked up, it's about the Joker, a bad guy, doing bad guy shit. It's not like they had a fight where Joker won just because he's a man, he just shot her point blank. Are women just aren't allowed to be hurt anymore or else it's sexist? This is stupid.

>>84855627
>having problem with banter
what a pussy

>>84855459
If this film doesn't expect you to already know the context of the relationships of the characters then they should have spent time establishing the Batman and Joker dynamic, which is infinitely more important to the movies story and climax.

>>84855680

>banter
>professional at a panel advertising his movie should engage in bantz
>only SJWs who hate banter would have a problem with this

I've run events, the only time you conduct yourself like that is if it's a late night panel or a comedy show, otherwise you deserve everything you get

>>84855742
But the film DOES establish the Batman/Joker dynamic. That's literally all the main plot is about.

>>84853719
I'll wait for the Armond White review desu

>>84855610

Fair enough, I get the point he's making.

Heck, it's not like I don't enjoy his on-going works, Providence is out of this world, some of the best post-Lovecraft Lovecraftian horror I've read.

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>>84855481
Porn is gross. Narrative > naughty bits.

>>84855308
She should have moved to an easier place than Gotham if she wanted that but couldn't keep up the pace.

>>84855829
But she could keep up. She got to into it which is why she quit.

>>84855220
Keep your protips, they won't be necessary this time.

>>84855829
>couldn't keep up the pace
Christ, did anyone in this thread actually watch the fucking thing?

She quits because she nearly kills Franz. She sees the abyss Batman kept telling her was there.

Does anyone have a clip of when Azzarello snapped at the comic con panel?

>>84855913
>>84855923
That counts as not keeping up. Betraying your principles is not keeping up.

>>84856009
She didn't betray anything. Go watch the movie

>>84855747
>otherwise you deserve what you get
because of the zeitgeist. Which I don't approve of. And you don't have to be a sjw, I never said that. You can be a soccer mum, a christfag, a prude, a stiff, etc, etc.

>>84856023
But she would have, so she had to stop. She couldn't keep up the pace.

>>84856090
But she didn't lol

>>84856050

You can also be a professional. An adult. Professional creators don't call fans they disagree with pussies in front of roomfuls of people, the same way professional actors don't flip out when they don't get the Oscar, the same way news anchors have to be very polite when they try to question interviewees on their bullshit.

You don't have to be a prude, christfag, feminist, stiff, etc to assume professionals will ACT like professionals. Banter doesn't belong everywhere.

>animated batman films that were better

Year One
TDKR
Under the Red Hood
Bad Blood

So it's pretty good overall.

>>84856000

No clip of it yet, apparently Azzarello called a BC reporter a "pussy" because he couldn't hear the reporter repeat a question.

>>84856120
>You can also be a professional. An adult.
Let's be honest with ourselves here. No one involved with creating comics and cartoons is really an adult. Especially the people like ourselves who take these creations so deadly serious.

You have no business talking about behaving like an adult. And neither do I.

>>84856120
You're basically saying you have to behave in the way others want you to to be accepted as an adult. Nigga, giving in to peer pressure is a child thing.

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>>84856200
holy shit someone needs to get a clip

>>84856265

No, when you're at an industry/fan event running a panel for the explicit purpose of advertising the thing you got paid to work on, you're an adult and you act like one.

Adulthood doesn't mean you put away childish things like comic books, it means you know when to behave like a man instead of a manboy.

>You have no business talking about behaving like an adult.

As I said (although anecdotes mean nothing on a Uyghur community chalk slate), I've run events. I know when you behave like an adult and when you cut loose. There's the right time and the wrong time, and you don't get to bitch about being treated like an idiot if you cut loose at the wrong time.

>>84856325

You may as well post that Zen Pencils comic about going against society's expectations and becoming a viking.

I'm not talking about crushing, Japanese-style conformity here. I'm talking about having enough tact and restraint not to yell out barroom insults at someone who questioned your work in front of a room full of fans you're addressing in a professional capacity.

>>84856417
>in a professional capacity
Do you understand that some people want to change what is included in "acting in a professional capacity"? How do you think that happens? A petition?

>>84854796
This is what autism does to people. Let this person be an example to warn others.

>>84855386
That doesn't make sense, Babs showed to Jason's funeral in a wheelchair in the comic.

>>84856200
>>84856342
He called the reporter a pussy because the pussy couldn't contain his SJW autism and decided to heckle the panel in the safety of the crowd.

>everyone constantly complaining about the mistreatment of Babs
>no one ever mentions that Gordon was stripped down, paraded around in gimp clothing, and jabbed with cattle prods by midgets

>>84856705

Thank you for that fair and unbiased opinion, Azzarello.

>>84856811
Good job not reading the comic

>>84856811
He's a priviledged white cis scum male, no professional offendees care about what happens to him.

>>84856811
Was he raped tho?

>>84856820
That's literally what the reporter himself described. He could't contain himself. He shouted out something sarcastic during the panel. Azzarello responded as any annoyed stand-up comedian would to an annoying heckler.

Just read the article.

>>84856811

Because it at least let Gordon react and dwell on that. He's still a character in the story.

Babs gets shot and the story forgets about her as a character. She's utterly disposable after being hurt, it's the definition of a plot device.

But I'm pretty sure /co/ will defend writing women as plot devices with no agency or character as good writing at this point because AT LEAST SHE'S NOT A MARY SUE or some other horseshit. The hoops you people jump through to defend poor writing for politics is just sad.

>>84855627
Grow some thicker skin you pussy.

>>84856956
So, your point is there can't be really minor characters? Every character that appears should have a fleshed out storyline?

>>84854624
no you inbred. Dick was waaay younger than Babs initially.

>>84856956
And? She got put back into actual use because of the comic which is more than what she had. Do you get asshurt every time a woman gets hurt and we're not treated to a 20 page exploration of their pain?

>>84857011
No but womyn must shitlord.

Christ if there's one thing I like about TKJ is that it's not decompressed shit like modern comics.

>>84856941
>Implying this people even know about the article in the first place
they are shitposting dude, just ignore it

>>84857011

She's not a minor character. Her shooting is a major plot impetus, but they treat her like a pet dog that gets shot.

And they somehow find time to let Gordon react to the things happening to him and let him a big part of the story.

It's imbalanced storytelling. Even a single page showing her reaction to the aftermath would have been fine.

>>84857021

> Do you get asshurt every time a woman gets hurt and we're not treated to a 20 page exploration of their pain?

Why do you people always exaggerate to retarded levels?

>>84857112
>she's not a minor character
Yes she is. Her shooting is one of the many things the joker imposes on gordon. It's not about her.

>>84857112
>Even a single page showing her reaction to the aftermath would have been fine

But, that did happen?

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>tfw you will never drink a paralyzed Barbara Gordon's bedpan

feels batman

>>84856919
According to Moore, yes. Joker had one of the midgets sodomize Jim with his cattle prod.

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>mfw Killing Joke is a worse Moore adaptation than League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

God why do they keep letting Timm out of his cage without Dini holding the leash? Don't even get me started on Brian "pussy" Azzarello what a fucking hack.

>>84857112
>She's not a minor character
Yes she is. She's not fucking Batgirl in that story dumbfuck. She had been phased out for years. It was only when she was reintroduced as Oracle that she managed to reattain recognition.

>>84857274
>you will never fuck her so hard she makes jokes about not being able to feel her legs
>you will never invite her to your wedding with a hot orange alien the morning after

The Killing Joke Behind The Scenes Feature

https://youtu.be/A7ooike-jFs

>>84857337
I always wanted to see porn those three midgets licking Gordon's erect penis until he cums all over their faces.

>>84857112
>Even a single page showing her reaction to the aftermath would have been fine.
Great job not fucking reading the thing.

>>84857476
While clockwork-oranging his eyes so they're open and he's forced to cum while looking at babrbara's pics again and again, right?

>>84857397
I always wonder how paralyzed people enjoy sex. I learned that when the connection in one of the vertabraes is severed, everything below is outright immobile, you lose all control. Wouldn't that also destroy sexual pleasure? Hell, wouldn't that mean you need a colostomy bag and a catheter to stop pissing and shitting yourself? Barbara was shot pretty low, but it still destroyed her spine, these things still aplly to her.

>>84857571
Even better. I would totally pay to see this happen.

>>84857582
If I ever fuck a girl in a wheelchair I'll be sure to post about it in an Oracle thread so you can find out.

>>84854136
Wanna say that again? Pussy?

>>84857979
Wanna say that again, pussy?

>>84857979
>>84858006
That again.

>>84858050
Wanna say that again, pussy?

>>84858050
Wanna say that again? Pussy?

>>84854216

But, anon, all comics are fanfic.

>>84853719
>Wanna say that again? Pussy?
Please my Heavenly Father let their be a video.
Pls Anons, I'm begging you!

>>84855566
So either the prologue is pointless soap opera-tier bullshit, OR it's an intentional lead-in that is, indeed, supposed to make us go "oh no, Batman's wannabe girlfriend got shot!"

>>84858356
Or it's a short story meant to:
1) establish a connection between batgirl and the audience so that her getting shot can properly set the tone of the main story
2) provide a foil to Batman's relationship with Joker and add context to Batman's behavior and views

>>84855588
So all the scenes where she follows and watches him through the binoculars, goes where he goes, bitches about him to her sassy gay best friend... Those were all part of one uber-scene?

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>>84858450
You mean the scenes where she's following the case she's emotionally invested in? The one he forbade her from following because of said emotional investment?

Paging Dr Freud.

>>84855124
I think what he meant was he wanted his grimdark interpretation to be one of multiple new ways the industry could take comic characters, but instead of inspiring a branching path of ideas it caused them to funnel into the one he came up with.

>>84854139
>>84854195
Both.

>>84854202
The added romantic/sexual element to the Batgirl/Batman dynamic in the story cannot help but influence the perception of later events. The added references to Joker's habit of fucking someone as soon as he gets out of prison cannot help but make the rape implications more explicit than in the original. The end result is a shift in the story from "Joker targets and humiliates the commissioner's daughter to drive her father crazy" to "Joker rapes Barbara Gordon because he wants to, and because this sexual aggression towards Batman's lover is a strike at Batman". Furthermore, it reduces the importance of Gordon in the plot to a degree, because the original story seems to be mostly about Joker trying to drive him insane, with Batman's intervention an inevitable but secondary concern; in this version, Batman becomes the focal point, and all violence done to the Gordons are purely a prelude to an encounter with him.

Also, Paris Franz sucks.

>>84854325
It's both, in this specific case.

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>>84858926
>The end result is a shift in the story from "Joker targets and humiliates the commissioner's daughter to drive her father crazy" to "Joker rapes Barbara Gordon because he wants to, and because this sexual aggression towards Batman's lover is a strike at Batman".
Haha, oh wow, I bet you actually believe your own bullshit.

>>84858926
wat

Batman was always the focal point of Killing Joke

Gordon's inclusion is incidental. He happens to be a straight cop. The story is Joker trying to prove to Batman that everyone is just one bad day away from his special brand of insanity.

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>>84854702
>fascism

>>84859159
Okay, stalinism

>>84854914
I think the general feeling is that having the character forever removed from front-lines action due to a single, out-of-costume moment that was followed by her sexual humiliation as part of a plan aimed at two other characters was maaaybe a bit of an anticlimactic and dismissive way to put an end to Batgirl.

>>84854965
I mean, I agree. Everyone I saw it with agreed. Most of the theatre seemed to agree, judging by chatter after the film.

>>84855622
The prologue was very much her story, and was all about the men in her life.

>>84859303
The prologue was a stupid idea and had no place in TKJ

>>84855627
Man up, pussy

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>>84854965

>>84855923
>>84856090
She partly quits because she almost snapped over Franz' attack on Batman (because she's over-emotional and distracted from morality by romance/sex). The other reason was because she expected Batman to fire her anyway, because she was a distraction to him; she says as much.

Both are, arguably, a disservice to the character.

I went and watched this last night so here's my two cents.

The Batgirl part wasn't bad. It was pretty weird, and it wasn't very great either, but it wasn't bad. It just didn't mesh at all with the rest of the story. The whole thing seemed like two episodes of a TV show that didn't really inform one another. I think it's likely that most fans will just disregard the first quarter and watch the rest. The rest is fucking good.

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>>84859414
>because she's over-emotional and distracted from morality by romance/sex
Wow, you have some issues to work through.

The abyss that crime-fighters walk along has been a constant theme in Batman for fucking decades and is one of the central themes of Killing Joke.

>>84857147
In the film version, she's a major character with a poorly-handled arc that is essentially ancillary to the main plot and has a tacked-on resolution.

>>84858432
I can see both of these points, but it's handled poorly. Their attempts to flesh out Batgirl are essentially based around making her over-emotional, clingy, and bad at her job. Their Joker-esque nemesis for her is unmemorable, shitty, and pretty much a generic rapey stalker.

The only added connection we get is the connection at the hips between her and the hero of the ACTUAL story.

>>84854383
>. And David, for the record, my intention at the end of that book was to have the two characters simply experiencing a brief moment of lucidity in their ongoing very weird and probably fatal relationship with each other, reaching a moment where they both perceive the hell that they are in, and can only laugh at their preposterous situation. A similar chuckle is shared by the doomed couple at the end of the remarkable Jim Thompson’s original novel, The Getaway.
And Morrisonfags will still insist Batman killing the Joker was what the author intended

>>84854139

He's not wrong, though. It was there in the 60's live action show and it was there in the comics originally.

Just because Chuck Dixon changed things in 90's doesn't it wasn't there.

>>84858566
Doctor Freud might be handy to sort out the issues they gave her with the controlling father figure/employer she follows around, dishes out gossip with her best friend about implying they're in a relationship, and then hatefucks on a filthy roof under a leering gargoyle.

>>84859047
Yes. The Joker is tormenting Gordon so that he can show that "the average man" can be broken and rendered a lunatic like himself. Batman's story of trying to reconcile his relationship to the Joker in a less fatal way runs parallel, but getting in a dig at Bats isn't Joker's primary motivation in driving Gordon mad.

The new framing device giving Batman romantic motivation to avenge Barbara, and Joker's comment about how Batman is "the main attraction", change this.

>>84859623
>Their attempts to flesh out Batgirl are essentially based around making her over-emotional, clingy, and bad at her job
Where the fuck are people getting this interpretation?

She's being consumed by her crime-fighting and her obsession with Franz. She's going insane and nearing the abyss of insanity where it becomes OK to be judge jury and executioner, and Batman trying to protect her from that only makes things worse.

You people have some serious issues.

>>84859331
Agreed.

>>84859527
That's because "the film" is so disjointed that ends up being effectively two different films.

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>>84859756
>Getting in a dig at bats isn't Joker's primary motivation in driving Gordon mad
Yes, it explicitly is. The entire production is meant to prove a point TO BATMAN.
>The new framing device giving Batman romantic motivation to avenge Barbara
Haha, holy shit, you're fucking retarded. They're not romantically involved. Barbara doesn't love Batman, "it was just sex."

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>>84854362
>If, as I said, god forbid, I was ever writing a character like Batman again, I’d probably be setting it squarely in the kind of “smiley uncle period where Dick Sprang was drawing it, and where you had Ace the Bat-Hound and Bat-Mite, and the zebra Batman—when it was sillier
Reminder that the Bat-family is canon on TKJ

>>84859455
And in this specific, standalone film, they illustrate the abyss by having Barbara Gordon become violently emotional because:

1) A criminal has a weird crush on her
2) Batman is being too controlling and sexy
3) She banged Batman and now he won't call her back
4 ) Her husbando got hurt

Then she quits because "muh abyss" but ALSO because "it's one thing to defend a city, but another when it's a specific person you really care about", and she's expecting to be sacked.

>>84859781

>Where the fuck are people getting this interpretation?

Her many gossipy conversations with her friend at the library where she speaks of her "relationship" with Batman, the sex, the awkward chit-chat following the sex and her desperate pleas for him to hang out with her again, and the fact that Franz hurting Batman is what sets her off and not anything he did to her.

Also, the speech she gives when she quits.

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>>84859872
You're inventing motivation from whole cloth just so you can say Batgirl is acting like she's on her period.

Get help.

>>84855636
It defined the relationship and central conflict between the Joker and Batman that most modern interpretations of the characters follow, it provided the closest thing to an origin story the Joker has, it explains how Batgirl got crippled (which is less important now that she's back to being Batgirl, but at one point was a point of confusion for people who only knew the character from the TV shows/movies), and the art is gorgeous.

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>>84859926
>interpreting her veiled comments to the gay dude literally
Oh. I get it. Context-blindess. You're autistic.

I really should have known.

>>84855808

Just a reminder that Babs originally was 7 years older than Dick. She was an adult while Dick was still a teenager.

But that's okay, though, somehow.

>>84859828
>takes a character literally at their words when they're clearly emotionally distraught and trying to get a guy they like to hang out with them

Based on this, I'd guess that you are LITERALLY autistic and unable to read cues based on body language and tone of voice... Except that you're also ignoring when she tells Batman how much she cares for him (and implicitly, vice versa) at the very end, and all the scenes in which she talks about their relationship with her friend.

I guess you're just selectively oblivious.

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>>84854362

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>>84859398

>>84853785
>sky is blue
It's fucking orange you SJW propaganda spewing drone!

>>84859936
It's literally a line of dialogue she speaks.

>>84859981
>talks to her friend about a 'relationship" in veiled terms
>then literally has sex with the guy
>then gets mad at another guy talking to his girlfriend about wanting space, and judo flips him, after Bruce refuses to show up for coffee
>then makes awkward chit-chat on the phone and begs Bruce to hang out with her again
>then goes mental when Franz hurts Batman
>THEN tells him how much she cares about him on the roof when she quits

Bonus meta evidence:
>Timm explicitly talks about how sexual/romantic tensions was his intent

>>84860054
She could have crippled that man.

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>>84860054

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>>84860112

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>>84853719
Thought the movie was good, the singing part was alittle weird but eh. Don't see why so many people hate the sex scene, don't think the Joker was good, ect. Solid 8/10 Enjoyed it more than the actual comic.

>>84853859
shitty writing isn't a character flaw

>>84860164
For discussion on why people don't like the prologue, just skim the thread.

Your opinion differs substantially from mine, but I respect it.

>>84860054
From an emotional cripple to a full blown cripple. Like poetry.

>>84860194
It is in a writer.

>>84860164
>Don't see why so many people hate the sex scene
So far as I can tell it's people putting far too much emphasis on what is factually a tiny part of the story and framing literally everything else in the prologue around it.

>>84859527
it was a juxtapose, she had her own joker analog, but he was nipped in the bud before he could go full joker. It didn't need to be more than that

>>84855083
To be fair Batman was like one second away from being nuked to shreds.

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>>84860164
Nerds, especially ones on 4chan, are emotionally fragile and sex triggers them. Once it's involved they can't separate it from any other part of something.

This is why people like >>84860086 can't separate Barbara's frustration at not being allowed to go after Franz from sexual attraction to Batman.

>>84860225
That and her beating of Franz are the central, climactic moments of her arc. She reaches an abyss and then backs away and hastily quits to avoid it... Entirely because her judgement was clouded by batlust.

>>84858050

Want to repeat yourself, little cat?.

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>>84860277
>The 4-second pre-sex scene is a central cimactic moment of her arc
No, it really isn't.
>Entirely because her judgment was clouded by batlust
It was clouded by obsession with Franz and anger. Yes, that someone she cares about got hurt was a part of her trigger and she said as much but it was not the only or even the most important part.

Seek therapy

>>84860241
And yet it went on for way too long, had its own subplot, and then got an after-the-credits resolution.

I agree that it SHOULDN'T have been more than that. It's just a shame that they insisted on making it such a big, dumb, poorly-written thing.

Also, when adding an entire new prologue and epilogue to a well-respected classic, focusing on a minor character from the original work, it's pretty much a given that people are going to analyze it heavily and try to figure out what your purpose was in adding it.

Franz sexual/romantic obsession with Batgirl mirrors Joker weird obsession with Batman.

The main difference is that Batgirl let Franz obsession get to her skin, became overly emotional and almost killed the guy, all because she was in this mostly for the thrill and the violence. She was a vigilante for all the wrong reasons and almost reached the abyss Batman talked about.

That serves to mirror what happened with her father, Jim Gordon, and Batman, because they despite the horrific things Batman had done to them and their loved one, didn't let this get to them. They did things by the book.

How can people not comprehend this?

>>84860261
>can't separate Barbara's frustration at not being allowed to go after Franz from sexual attraction to Batman
Neither can she.

>>84860337
I guess the scene at the cafe, the dishing in the library, and her talk with Bats when she quits are all just meaningless filler?

>>84860375

I forgot that Franz attack on Batman triggered her, mirroring again the later attack on her meant to trigger Jim Gordon and accidentally Batman.

>>84860375
>How can people not comprehend this?
We can, we just think it's silly that they added a shitty, poorly-written, hackey subplot to try to beef up Batgirl's role, and it essentially made her look like shit who got into the job for the wrong reasons, can't keep her emotions and libido out of her work, assaults civilians for petty reasons, and then quits because she can't learn to manage her feelings.

>>84860392

>I guess the scene at the cafe, the dishing in the library, and her talk with Bats when she quits are all just meaningless filler?

It was to show that she cared for Batman.

>>84860341
>try to figure out what your purpose was in adding it.
Figure out?

Jesus christ, it's not hard. It's already been said in the thread. See >>84858432

Fuck, why am I even trying? This is the board that defends Man of Steel. Getting you idiots to understand what was actually happening in the prologue would be like teaching a horse to play golf

>>84860486
Romantically. And that it was making her erratic, hence why she assaulted a dude for doing something she perceived as similar to Batman's behaviour.

>>84860375
When sex is involved nerds become totally incapable of separating it from other parts of a story.

>>84860460
>Try to beef up Batgirl's role
No. It was establishing empathy so her getting shot in the opening scene has some kind of impact. If they just opened up on Barbara getting shot it would mean nothing. This is a film, not a comic.

>>84860539
A half-hour of footage at the beginning of a film can have multiple purposes. Timm has said at the panel that showing the smouldering undercurrents of sexual and romantic tension between the characters was part of the reason, too.

>>84860577
Adding more scenes where she builds characterization and earns empathy, in a subplot complete with her own character arc and nemesis, counts as a beefed up roll.

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>>84860486
>>84860547
>>84860392
>the scene at the cafe
Was her being angry she couldn't go after Franz
>the dishing in the library
Shouldn't be taken literally you clown, he doesn't know she's batgirl.
>her talk with Bats
Isn't about romantic love and applies to Jim in the story proper

At this point you're being willfully ignorant

>>84860547

Yes!

This shit is to show that while Batman also care for her, he can't get involved romantically, or otherwise he'd behave erratically just like she did.

Her being in love with him was bad, because it led her to become overly emotional over their bonding and end up compromising their work.
This is served to illustrate that despite Batman caring for her he NEEDS to put a wall his feelings and himself, between him and her. Batman needs to remain cold and calculated, or otherwise he'd have lost a long time ago.

This was the only thing that kept Batman from killing the Joker, because he doesn't let his emotions cloud him. He's unfeeling, uncaring, unmoved. It's a need.

The whole segment is to show: romance is bad for vigilantes and thus you can't let your emotions get the better of you.

>>84860627
>the scene at the cafe was her being angry she couldn't go after Franz

So a girl has sex with her coworker/boss. He won't call her back, even though they were working together on an important project she has a personal investment in. She asks her gay best friend for advice, he tells her the guy might need a period of adjustment. She tries to arrange coffee at a diner with the guy she slept with, he stands her up. She sees a couple having a spat where the guy is demanding space, and she suddenly loses it and attacks this guy.

How would you interpret that in literally any other film?

>>84853752
Dear Lord, Timm is completely delusional. It's like watching Santa's beard fall off at the mall.

>>84860734
I actually agree with all your points. It just seems like a really poor use of her character, a really lame and poorly-written story, and like a REALLY unnecessary thing to add to a very tidy classic tale of Batman, Joker, and Commissioner Gordon. Why did The Killing Joke need a subplot about the dangers of caped romance? Did it actually improve the story in any way?

>>84860798
>Did it actually improve the story in any way?
Nope.

>>84860764

He's not wrong. Batgirl was infatuated with Batman when she was introduced and she was going to become Batman's love interest in the show before it was canceled.

>>84860821
>Barbara Gordon’s Batgirl exceeded the earlier Bat-Girl and Batwoman characters in popularity, and readers requested for her to appear in other titles. Although some readers requested that Batwoman also continue to appear in publication, DC responded to the fan-based acclaim and criticism of the new character in an open letter in Detective Comics #417 (1971),[12] stating: "I'd like to say a few words about the reaction some readers have to Batgirl. These are readers who remember Batwoman and the other Bat-girls from years back ... They were there because romance seemed to be needed in Batman's life. But thanks to the big change and a foresighted editor, these hapless females are gone for good. In their place stands a girl who is a capable crime-fighter, a far cry from Batwoman who constantly had to be rescued [by] Batman."[3]

>>84860870

She was still infatuated with him in the pages.

Too bad you can't remark about the movie being bad, Azz

>>84853719
You know that Alan Moore isn't even credited in the film?
The original illustrator Brian Bolland is credited, but not Alan Moore.

>>84860994
He asked not to be.

>>84860577
lol samefag spotted

>>84857112
bruv she got dozens of years of her reaction

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I still genuinely enjoyed the movie, this whole "It's terrible because sexism and you're a misogynist if you disagree" thing seems pretty silly, though. A lot of people are frothing at the mouth about how Batgirl was treated but not a lot of people seem to know why they're upset.

You've got articles like this one that just make genrelizations about how this is sending a message about women being incompetent superheroes before ranting about Ghostbusters and how more diverse writers are for people to enjoy comics. https://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/jul/26/batman-sexism-the-killing-joke-remake-source-material


Then you have people like >>84857112 who actually know why they didn't like certain aspects of the movie. It's a shame that no real discussion about the quality of the movie can be had because everything is mired in politics.

I felt like it was an enjoyable movie. Kevin Conroy, Mark Hamill and Bruce Timm together again made me think this was just going to be a fanservice and it was a pretty decent one at that. Some scenes felt flat compared to the graphic novel. Conroy and Hamill have both given better performances in those roles but the movie was still entertaining enough for me to forgive that while watching.

7/10 Would watch again, despite muh soggy knees.

>>84860746
timmfags really are unable to think critically

"they had sex! omg it's so adult and complicated!"

>>84861237
I'm not a Timmfag. I'm actually against his attempt to try and add "complexity" to the film with his shitty, cliche doomed romance.

Thanks to all your whining I ended up reading marysue's review of it and the comments.

>>84861310
Oh, I was not accusing you

>>84860994
It's Alan Moore's request not to be credited on any adaptation of his comicbooks since the first ones were awful adaptations and he feels that his comics should just stay as comics in the first place

>You stinking pile of sliiiiiiiiime
>WHY AREN'T YOU LAAAA*gurgle*GHING
>What do you think I'm crazyyou'llturnitoff when I'm halfway across!
What did the voice director mean by this?

>>84854596
Barbara is a college student in the movie, just like Mystery of the Batwoman.

You'd know this if you watched the movie.

>>84855481
The jogging scene, anon.

>>84853719

i dont know what the shit is about but have some fucking harcore horses. als GOOD LUCK AMERICA!!

https://twitter.com/tjournal/status/755082834197434368

>>84853719
>and it’s been controversial among feminists.
Fuck
OFF!!!

>>84860577
>If they just opened up on Barbara getting shot it would mean nothing

It's almost like Barbara wasn't a central focus of the source material or something.

>>84859989
They're both adults so it's fine?

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Is Barbara the family bicycle? At this point Damian is the only one she didn't jump.

>>84860054
Thanks feminism.

Also
>5'4 90 pound woman
>tossing a man twice her size and weight

I want this meme to end.

>>84862358
Why does Dick have to be romantically stuck to this character? He deserves better.

>>84862765

Right? Dick began dating Starfire, which is a lot better. At the time Barbara was 7 years older was mostly presented as his older friend or older sister.

Than in the 90's Chuck Dixon started to push this shit just because of the cartoon. Fuck that.

Dick's woman is Starfire. She came first and she's a lot better than Babs.

>>84858050
Care to reiterate, feline?

>>84862954
>Right? Dick began dating Starfire, which is a lot better. At the time Barbara was 7 years older was mostly presented as his older friend or older sister.

yeah starfire isn't getting around hahah

>>84863126

Scott Lobdell bullshit should be ignored.

>>84859644
They're doing that not because it's true but because it upsets fans of TKJ.

>>84859159
Look up the real definition faggot. Google isn't a dictionary, it's a brainwashing machine. God damn you're an asshole.

>>84855481
You're saying this on the board where people go through cartoon series to screencap images of characters' feet.

You're trying to help those who are long gone.

>>84859989
An age difference that has been heavily retconned since

It's funny how many Killing Joke fags are suddenly experts are grasping at Silver Age straws to defend this piece of shit

>>84853719
I really don't care. Barbara has always been a boring shitty character. Except when she was Oracle. Then she was cool.

>>84864526

Yeah, in 2003 and 2007.

I haven't read one post in this thread, am I to assume it's all just shitflinging?

>>84853719
>geek pantheon
People who say this even ironically should be hung by their entrails from a lamp-post.

>>84864859
It's like reading a Rotten Tomatoes review. Holy shit, the puns(this is a pun right?) are fucking awful.

>>84864909
Holy shit I just noticed the "gnostic gospels" line

It's like the writer is trying to make me cringe out of my skin.

Someone post the webm of the scene plz

>>84854054
Another writer mocked him on a stage in front of thousands. It wasn't the right response but it was reasonable.

>>84862415
It's superheroes. Stop being a pussy.

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>>84865010
I couldn't bring myself to read all the way through. Anyone willing to an hero and just pasta the worst of it?

>>84853719
ALAN MOORE WAS A MISTAKE

This wouldn't have happened if it weren't for him.

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>>84865035
>it's a bruce is a fuckmentor episode

>>84865123
You know, I don't even think you're wrong anymore.
Fuck Alan Moore.

>>84865162
Lad, I've been saying this for years: Moore is edge incarnate and overrated as fuck. Everything of his that I read gave me eyerolling whiplash.

>>84865162
>>84865212
I used to think "maybe the hate on Moore is just an exaggeration. He wouldn't be so popular if his works were THAT bad."

Then I read "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow." UNFORGIVEABLE.

>>84865128
>it's a babs is a whorepupil episode

>>84865299
Tebehe, I thought Watchmen was mediocre and V for Vendetta was tailor-made for autistic redditards trying to look edgy.

Killing Joke was not even that good. Well, except for the final panels.

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>>84865349
I can't believe I used to like V for Vendetta.

>>84865379
Film or book?
They're both cringe

>>84865423
Film, then book
in my defence I was 16 when I first saw/read it, that was 10 years ago. My "yeah stick it to the man" period

>>84865502
Everybody's "rebel yell" period. I think I saw Battle of Algiers a couple of years after that and thought "man, V sure looks like a goofy piece of shit now"

>>84865552
It's really almost as though Moore read 1984 and then wrote a fanfic in which his OC gary-stu's Big Brother.

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>>84854362
When you think about, he really does have a point. You'd think giving writers more freedom would allow more and better stories, but the reality is the industry stagnated harder then ever. Fuck, even DC points this out with ReBirth.

I just skipped the prologue so I can't really bitch about it. I just hate the botched bad day speech and the hooker thing

>>84865665
Made even weirder by the fact that they had John Hurt play Big Brother after playing Winston in that 1984 adaptation with Richard Burton. And giving him absolutely nothing to do.

Looking back at it after 10 years it's hokey and silly and verbose. But Portman and Weaving are very good in it so I guess that's fine. Wouldn't recommend it to anyone over the age of 20 tho.

>>84865812
Its really kinda funny how it is as you say pretty much only worth anything because of corniness now.
Portman and Weaving did their best, true.

>Made even weirder by the fact that they had John Hurt play Big Brother after playing Winston in that 1984 adaptation with Richard Burton. And giving him absolutely nothing to do.

All I remember is his mouth being unflatteringly large on screen.

>>84858645
Pretty much

>>84865502
>>84865423
>>84865379
>>84865552
I still like it. Only seen the film.

>>84858926
>Paris Franz sucks.
Thems fighting words faggot he has potential

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>>84865949
I don't think he cared that much. He was just angry for 5 minutes on screen and then got offed with a bag over his head. I mean shit, I don't even remember much of the plot save for

>muh insurgency
>muh rights
>muh fascism
>muh horrible misuse of Guy Fawkes

Do you think Moore was too stupid to know who Guy Fawkes was and what he stood for?

>>84866161
that or he did a marvellous job of making a character than had no fucking clue about Guy Fawkes or what he stood for.

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>>84858737
Pic 4 u.


>>84859662
This.

>>84859837
Who's the girl beside Robin

>>84866183
Mind rephrasing that? That "than" throws me off.

>>84865040
>superhero
>attacking innocent bystanders

Menace, is more like.

>>84866263
it was meant to be a that, sorry.

>>84866291
Oh, now it makes sense. I mean your sentence not V emulating Guy Fawkes who literally tried to blow up democracy and reinstate Catholicism as the main religion in England.

I mean shit, Fawkes would have loved Big Brother in the film.

>sex object
But she had personality, characterization, and emotion. She was the main character of the first half. If anything, wouldn't Batman be the sex object?

>>84866363
ah, right, my mistake, I typo when typing quickly.
>I mean shit, Fawkes would have loved Big Brother in the film

Who should V have emulated then I wonder?

>>84866438
No one. Robin Hood maybe, but that doesn't sit well with the grimdark tone. He should have just used a Magna Charta as a symbol instead of that stupid mask.

>>84854281
If youre watching this the assumotion is you know her backstory already

>>84866714
No you're not.

>>84853817
>SJWs don't like TKJ

If the comic had been released today they would have decried Moore as a Misogynist Rapist who typified the Patriarchy. Instead they go after the animated adaptation instead.

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>>84859241
At least it acknowledges that she was once important. That's more respect than some bat-characters get. Before that point, she simply wasn't used due to unpopularity. And since Killing Joke, she became so popular again as something other than a girl-Batman that they made her girl-Batman again.

>>84859872
You are obsessed with sexuality and gender in an unhealthy way. You're seeing things that simply aren't there.

>>84866833
Are you nuts? Did you see the reaction to this movie being made? They're still decrying Moore as a misogynist rapist who typified the patriarchy.

>>84860261
>especially ones on 4chan
That crowd showed up around 2012. It didn't used to be the norm.

>>84859989
7 years is considered the ideal age gap for marriage in Japan, but only if the guy is older.

>>84866255
Batgirl

>first part of TKJ
Could have been a standalone Batgirl feature. She can clearly carry a film judging by this, while Paris Franz has potential. 8/10

>2nd half
Story is as weak as i remember it from the comic but fucking Hamill saves it and so does Conroy. The direction was pretty good and they didn't shy away from anything. 9/10.

>total
One of DCAU's top features. I'd argue it's the best one since TDKR and on equal footing with Assault on Arkham.

I have no idea why people hate it, is it just the in thing to do, the outrage over meaningless shit?

>>84868989
>is it just the in thing to do, the outrage over meaningless shit?
That is the defining feature of the 10s

>>84869060
Thank God I don't live in America, I couldn't stand all this moral faggotry.

On a side note, what's with the Mask of Phantasm love, is it a meme? I mean it was fine, but there are quite a few DC films better than it, this one included.

>>84853785
I mena, we didn't decide to like NuPPG

I thought it was OK.

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>>84853719
My personal problems with this movie:

>Many, many key lines, were badly performed, mainly the "why aren't you laughing?" One from the joker, which was a sad and genuinely confused question from the joker in the comic, but here it's just a statement shouted angrily during a fight scene.

>A personal animation pet peeve is using CGI to animated moving objects like the carousel to save cash.

>Batgirl is poorly characterised.

>Batgirls intro is far too long, is boring and standard as fuck. And adds nothing to the story.

>The batman and batgirl sex scene, for obvious reasons.

>The animation quality is quite poor.

>The voice acting is off when it comes to batman, despite Kevin convoy voicing him, who's the best batman ever.

>It doesn't have the same dark tone as the comic. It doesn't feel as demented, it feels like a slightly edgier episode of the animated series, which normally would work, but doesn't with this.

>That song in the middle was cringe inducing.

>It doesn't sell the main plot point nearly as well as it should have. It doesn't really emphasise how the joker origin we're given is very likely a fabrication.

>Jim Gordon feels like someone doing an impression of an old man in a cartoon.

>The animation is really choppy.

>The animation and colouring looks too sterile, unlike many other movies DC have produced.

>The line delivery on the end joke was atrocious, I thought there was a punch line that had yet to come, but there wasn't. (It's been a while since I read it.)

>Kevin conroys laugh sounds like shit at the end.

All in all, it's really shit IMO. Which is crazy to me considering I think the animated adaptation of TDKR is 100% perfect and it is my favorite batman movie, animated or live-action. It makes me wonder how this was such a fuck-up. I honestly think the comic just doesn't translate well to the screen at all. It felt way more mature and nuanced on the page. Whatever, I guess. Hears to hoping their next adaptation is actually good.

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>>84868989
>>84869129
Jesus Christ, just stop.

someone post the song

>>84860746
>She tries to arrange coffee at a diner with the guy she slept with, he stands her up.
was this what happened? looked like she was just at a café to me.

OP left out:
>According to Bleeding Cool reporter Jeremy Konrad, the writers insisted she was still a strong female character. Konrad, who’d already seen the film and didn’t agree, himself sarcastically shouted, “Yeah, by using sex and then pining for Bruce.”

>Bleeding Cool
Of course it was.

>>84855670
She's the only woman in a story full of men and her contribution to it is to get paralyzed and sexually assaulted in order to make a man angry

So, did anyone else think that those city cams Barbara mentioned were going to be a bigger plot point in that first half?

>Babs says there are secret cameras all over the city monitoring people
>later, in a moment of passion, she loses all signs of self restraint and strips off her costume to have sex with Batman out in the open on a rooftop
>scene pans up to a gargoyle watching them
>"Oh shit, is she really going to be stupid enough to get caught on camera and expose herself to her father or something?"
>the city cams are actually never mentioned again after that one scene
>"Oh. I guess not."

>>84859527
That is why the whole start of the movie was a bad idea. She is important because of her connection to Jim not the fact that she was batgirl. Everything that was done to her was to hurt Jim the same reason the Joker killed Robin was to hurt batman.

>>84874639
She found the dude in the car on them.

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>>84862954
Starfire being better than Babs... HAHA No.

Fuck Dick, Babs/Supergirl is best.

>>84876733
The old Mike Turner costume is back?

>>84876733

They were only friends pre-CoIE.

>>84853719
>>84853752
Now that I've seen it, I get what they were going for... even if they missed the mark. They needed to establish Batgirl as a character and, I guess, felt like she couldn't be Batgirl at the time the Killing Joke proper starts up. They also seemed to feel like we needed a reason why Batgirl's injury would be such a blow to Batman. "It just would" didn't seem to cut it.

The shit with the gangster Nice France or what the fuckever and the shamefully gay guybrarian was just fucking garbage, though.

>>84855124
Alan Moore cares less for the opinion of a fat nerd on the internet than he does the hobo he steps over in the street. Continue feeling mad, fanboy.

>>84853719
>In the geek pantheon

abandon thread

>>84875329
Yeah, I caught that. I just thought they would come up again later, too.

>They state Batman is great at sex
Was that really necessary?

>>84853719
I there a video of this panel?

>>84858926
What bothers me is how we go from present-day college to an old school carnival, and how Joker apparently interacted with 30's-era Italian mobsters just a decade or two ago. I mean, Joker's flashbacks don't seem to jive with the movie's setting.

>>84858926
>"Joker rapes Barbara Gordon because he wants to, and because this sexual aggression towards Batman's lover is a strike at Batman"
god, how retarded are these writers

>>84878016
What do you expect? A girl is talking to her big gay friend about a man she just slept with. Of course the man is honna get graded. And this is fucking Batman. He's not gonna be bad at sex. He prepared for this shit.

>>84854247
That shit was ambiguous as fuck and only brought up on batman beyond because "muh shipping" even thought Paul Dini "the one who arguably made BTAS a success shipped Babs/Dick.

>>84853719
Firstly, the day that I care what social justice scum think is probably the day that I died.
I'm perfectly fine with it. It was mainly filler for the first half of the movie. All it was mainly doing was establishing some character development for batgirl. I feel sorry for these sjw types. It really speaks to their lack of psychological objectivity. People have sex with those they like. Case closed.

Now, that first half was pretty good. I enjoyed it for the simple reason that it was a throwback to classic batfam adventures. Badguy mobster stalks batgirl, adventures ensue, good guys win.
I think that they put that in there because it would have been a pain in the ass to extend the killing joke part to a near hour and a half. They did great with the time that they had with it. It was pretty damned good as far as it going from comic to movie. The ending was...ok. Not anything really bad about the ending, it's sort of hard to stick an ending that was tailor made specifically for the comic itself. Solid attempt, though. 8 out of 10. Not fanboying out, I just got done watching it.

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I can't believe we've gone from
>Not muh Batman
too
>Not muh Barbara/Batgirl
So they fucked, who cares? Is this movie suddenly canon to all of you? I'm not going to cry about how a movie didn't match the character of a comic book. I didn't know a bunch of fictional characters could make alot of people cry over nothing.
I thought the movie was fine, not without it's flaws, as in I don't like how the shortened Joker's monologe and left out the rain and lights at the ending. But the movie is a solid 7/10.

>Gordon gets molested and tortured all through the book
>SJW scum only cares about barbara which was a shitty pointless character before becoming oracle

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>>84855808
I always expected them to be together, and the animated series and the animated movie with Mr Freeze kept pushing it and I liked it.

All of these thought seems like someone shoved its fanfition down our throats.

Fuck...
>>84855808
Dem feels anon...

>>84862954
>Dick began dating Starfire,
This would be basically the equivalent of having Indiana Jones Ellen Ripley Dating Obi-Wan Kenobi only because they are both in the same company.

It's completely retarded and out of place and context.

Besides starfire it's just a fucking wet dream for the geeks, there is no substance nor proper context within it.

>>84881235
Strong and independent womyn don't have sex.

>>84854139
>>84854216
you guys say this like it's the first time Timm's put Barbara and Bruce together.

I thought the babes prelude was quite good, complemented the story, and foreshadowed the duality and ambiguity and the ending of the story, from either perspective.

Who cares if they fucked. Babs has always had a daddy complex, and Bruce has also been weirdo. It worked for this.

>>84881561
I agree. I don't understand the over-reaction. The comics and films constantly contradict each other so I don't see why people don't just look at this as a stand-alone continuity.
And I also don't see why 4chan users are suddenly pushing the 'you can't have sex with your mentor/somebody older than you' angle.
She's clearly supposed to be a young adult in this version, whether that matches the book or not.
I thought the whole thing was fine. Not perfect, but fine.

>Moore has nearly disowned the comic, and is not proud of the way he treated her.

who the fuck cares? Moore disowns everything that gets popular he's just a contrarian fag.

>>84881561
>complemented the story
how exactly? it felt completely like a different story.

Outside of the SJW and feminist outrage, which will always happen unless Babes used the power of womanhood to walk again and beat up the Joker.


How come we didn't get to see her fully naked? We saw Gordon's dick, how come we still can't see tits in a rated R movie? Is that the last frontier for animated capshit films?

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>>84860054
BTFO

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Bear with me /co/ because I don't really read comics that much and kind of clicked on /co/ by accident.

But it seems that more and more comics have turned to the "politically correct" crowd and have gone as far as turning popular characters female and filling other diversity quotas. My question is, does this hurt the comic book industry? In my mind (and I could be wrong) people read comics for action, a decent hero story, and to look at giant tits and most of the comic book clientele consists of younger males.

When will Bruce fuck Harley sane though?

>>84853719
>a bunch of afraid of sex journalists that see everything as defaultly sexist and racist who dont even like comics dont like The Killing Joke because Barbara Gordons tragic end of arc is given a backstory
Woe, what a shocker. Whats next? They dont like Long Halloween because a strong and independent female character gets beat up?

>>84853719
>“Wanna say that again? Pussy?”
OOOOOOOOOOOH SNAB!

>>84881279

The same guy that pushed DickxBabs in the cartoons and animated movies is the one pushing BrucexBabs also.

>>84881326

>Besides starfire it's just a fucking wet dream for the geeks, there is no substance nor proper context within it.

Yes, there is. More so than Dick x Babs, that was pushed in the comics in the 90's just because of the cartoons and was made possibly only by constantly retconning Babs past.

>>84853719
>>Apparently the expanded role for Gordon, who is the librarian daughter of the police commissioner, involves her dressing up as a way to attract Batman, having sex with him, and then getting shot and paralyzed by the Joker. The paralysis part has been part of the “Killing Joke” mythology — which exists at a side to the usual Batman story, a bit like the Gnostic Gospels — and it’s been controversial among feminists. (Moore has nearly disowned the comic, and is not proud of the way he treated her.)
for a second, I thought you were talking about Commish gordon