>Whiny >Blindly follows orders >Loses nearly all of

>>84625922
even his outfit was total garbage

>>84625922
>Whiny
Literally when
>Blindly follows orders
Didn't he sneak around the helicarrier and bust into a room to take something he wasn't allowed to?
>Constantly the butt of the joke
Literally when

>>84625922
He was made to be in the right about literally everything. The primary character arc of the movie is Tony getting over his petty grude and rising to be a hero like Cap.

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Whedon cannot into cap.

He had TWO movies to get it right , he failed. In AoU he had the GOAT Russos give him a perfect Cap template with the winter soldier, he still failed.

It makes perfect sense actually. Whedon just can't comprehend a character like Cap. Honor, duty, service to one's country no matter the flaws. Whedon is so passionate about his politics (in this case for worse) he can't separate them to write a character objectively

Case in point, he hates The Punisher, he's on record saying how much the idea of Frank abhors him, if he were editor he'd kill him off. And yet Frank worships Cap. Frank would've volunteered for the SSS, if he was around in WW2, if Frank never had a family that died he'd be a decent Cap, not as great as Steve of course, but he'd be a more quieter lead by example kind of guy

If Whedon hates the idea of a Cap fanboy (which is surprising & humanizing trait of Frank), then there is no chance he'd get the real deal right.

Another example, Avengers1 "There's only one God ma'am" line as Cap jumps out the plane. It got a laugh in the theater; a lot of people would say that's something a man of the 30s/40s would say, and Steve probably does believe in God.

BUT, it's just a standard Whedon wacky "oh look here's this old-timer" quip. But Cap would never force his beliefs on somebody. He just met Natasha very recently, he knows she's a Russian spy, in his era Russia was an ally, he'd never preach to one or a teammate certainly not to a woman impolitely.

Whedon just doesn't get the military mindset.

The Russos are the greatest thing to happen to Steven since Brubaker.

His speeches in TWS & CW shit all over his Avengers ones. If they give him HALF as good as one in the Thanos face-off they'll deliver yet another god tier Cap moment. They just completely get Steve. Chris Evans knew this after TWS, he fought hard for his fighting style to be the evolution from that movie in Ultron, not Whedon's shitty acrobatic Cap from Avengers1.

>>84628290
I agree with you that Russo's Cap is miles ahead of Whedon, but I thought AoU Cap was okay too. Much better than he was in the first Avengers movie.

Except the language joke. Fuck that was bad.

>>84628290
You are exagerating a little sis.

Calm down.

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>>84628347
Part of the reason he was better in Ultron is because Marvel immediately knew the Russos were their future. They offered the Russos phase 3 before The Winter Soldier even CAME OUT in the theaters. That's how confident they were that the Russos got the characters. Based as fuck

We know all of this from the Sony e-mail hacks lel. We all knew Ultron had a messy production with Marvel & Whedon fighting before as well, so it's not hard of a stretch to guess that Marvel got Whedon to bend Cap to their liking.

A good writer can write many characters and make them fit in their vision; a great one knows their limits and can work with others to make a more cohesive story. Markus & McFeely are also fully deserving of praise along with the Russos. Civil War was tight as a drum with that more characters than both Avengers and still was a better film than both combined

>>84628290
>service to one's country no matter the flaws
All your other points are good, but this is totally opposite to Cap's character.

Cap's entire thing is that he doesn't serve the country blindly. See his time as Nomad in the comics. Hell, in TWS he goes rogue when he finds out SHIELD is corrupt and in CW he gives up the Captain America identity at the end because he knows he can't represent a country that enforces stuff he doesn't believe in (the Accords).

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>>84628493
He serves the greater idea of America. What America should be, the ideal America

Yeah he does drop the identity once in a while but he doesn't give up the fight

I would argue he drops the Shield but not Cap, he's not going to give up on his convictions that the accords are anti-American/freedom. He still says he'll fight if needed. The entire closing monologue is such a perfect cap moment. chills

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vMTxC5Ras0#t=1m26s

>>84628290
The line wasn't meant to laugh at Cap.

Whedon handled Cap very respectfully.

>>84628347
AoU cap was too quippy, it felt so out of place. His characterization in Avengers is a bit better, but his fight scene was trash

>>84628583
Yes I agree about the American ideal, he always fights for that. Just not that he serves the country no matter what.

>At the end of the movie, in the final fight, Cap effectively beats Iron Man. But it’s a bitter victory, and after some words exchanged, Cap drops his shield. The Russos say this is Steve Rogers saying goodbye to Captain America – at least, as we know him. “Dropping the shield is a rejection of the Captain America identity and a choice to embrace the Steve Rogers identity,” says Anthony.

>He’s a “full-blown insurgent”, says Joe Russo, pointing out the arc that the character has taken, with Steve starting to question power structures in The Winter Soldier, taken to its natural conclusion in Civil War. "The most interesting thing you can do,” Joe observes, “is to take him from a patriot in the first film to an insurgent in the third movie.”

I'm sure he'll embrace the Cap identity again, probably in the second IW movie. In the beggining he won't though and I think that's a great character arc for him. Really excited to see what they'll do with him in IW, Russos said they'll continue from the Civil War story.

>>84628477
>so it's not hard of a stretch to guess that Marvel got Whedon to bend Cap to their liking.
None of the changes had anything to do with Cap. They were over cutting certain scenes in favor of others, dropping hints for IW or not, and including the twins.

Your confirmation bias just has you throwing anything good Whedon did away as not really him, because that would contradict what you already think.

>>84628290
>Another example, Avengers1 "There's only one God ma'am" line as Cap jumps out the plane. It got a laugh in the theater; a lot of people would say that's something a man of the 30s/40s would say, and Steve probably does believe in God.

See, you took it as a ill-fitting joke. I took it as earnest, and admirable. This stuff is all subjective.

As our world gets more and more ridiculous, I'm starting to like Captain America more and more, and I say that as a Brit.

>>84628583

This. Very much this.

>He serves the greater idea of America. What America should be, the ideal America

Sure, 'muh patriotism', but those values have belonged to others before America and likely will after (arguably, now) they stop valuing them. I'd argue...

>He serves the greater idea of hope, justice and yet also compassion and common goodness. What the world should be, the ideal world.

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>>84628290
>Case in point, he hates The Punisher, he's on record saying how much the idea of Frank abhors him, if he were editor he'd kill him off. And yet Frank worships Cap.
And yet Cap is often disgusted by the Punisher too, and Whedon has said he likes Cap. Cap is NOT the Punisher. The ideals he upholds are very far removed from Cap's, no matter how much of a fanboy he is. Nor is he
>Honor, duty, service to one's country no matter the flaws.
All of this shit. When America doesn't live up to its best ideals, Cap chooses loyalty to the ideals over the power structure, so you're wrong there too.

>>84628677

I'm hoping he will at least be Steve Rodgers in an outfit and with a shield of some sort, if you're right. Steve without his shield just feels wrong.

That said, if I remember right, we won't be seeing him again til IW anyway? So, it's not like we'll get to see the interim.

>>84628800
Panther will probably make him some sort of shield for him to use, but I'll bet money that Tony giving Cap his original shield back will be when they reconcile. Probably at the end of the first IW movie.

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>>84628647
oh i know it wasn't a laugh AT cap, maybe at his expense. i didn't take it that way anyway but it's still an out-of-character line for cap

>>84628677
well then that's that then. although i'm sure in cap's eyes he doesn't view himself as an insurgent, but that is how the world will see him

>>84628695
no confirmation bias, we know about the edit wars, but whedon was dropping hints in interviews during production before they did the thor stuff about tension and stress. whedon's cap was better in AoU, but he still dropped the ball, and i'll confidently make a leap in logic that it was more marvel than whedon because a) whedon ignored cap1's steve in avengers and RDJ's tony in IM3, so he has a history of ignoring and doing what he wants to tell (hell he ignored natasha in TWS too) and b) more behind the scenes conflict was confirmed but are still not revealed yet

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>>84628290
This. Leftists like Whedon can't comprehend a strong, proud American soldier character without seeing them as slaves to the machine.

>>84628913
God I hope we get this scene in IW.

Seeing as how Russos gave us ant arrow and Giant-Man in CW, I'm hopeful they'll give us this too.

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>>84628774
I know cap is disgusted by Frank but I listed why Frank loves Cap

It's that ideal america that Cap is loyal to. That idea that the american dream will never die, a more perfect america. i should've been more detailed in my post but i ran out of characters lel. that idea is america (to Steve)

>>84628800
>>84628852
we have 2 options with his shield now. steve is in wakanda, how convenient that the masters of vibranium are there and can easily make him a new one. or he gets badass wakandan tech and uses the holo shield

either way the replacement will get destroyed by thanos. and stark has the original one to give back to him for the badass moment. i'd bet money on it

>>84628913
Whedon explicitly likes Cap, and it shows in how he writes him as the moral paragon that everyone else's flaws are contrasted against.

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>>84629032
that's a surface portrayal of cap however.

he's the good paragon but he's almost pure boyscout in whedon's films. whedon could've went deeper

when he's on top of the truck about to fight ultron, that's a completely lost moment. whedon just has cap quip back at him. this is fucking ultron, ULTRON and the leader of the avengers. there's physical conflict but no depth

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>>84626705
That outfit was shit, but I still appreciated how it clung to his ass and titties like a second skin.

Speaking of CW and IW, I wonder if Natasha joined Cap's team at the end. Also, if Scott, Clint, Sam etc. are also in Wakanda, they didn't show them in the post credit scene.

>>84629004
>I know cap is disgusted by Frank but I listed why Frank loves Cap
And I was explaining why someone who is, in fact, in tune with Cap's mindset would still find Frank repulsive, in response to
>If Whedon hates the idea of a Cap fanboy (which is surprising & humanizing trait of Frank), then there is no chance he'd get the real deal right.
He doesn't dislike Frank for being a Cap fanboy, he dislikes the fantasy Punisher represents, where Frank can go in and shoot up a bunch of people, and never accidentally kill an innocent. Now you may disagree with him on that, it makes no difference, but it hardly means he dislikes Cap.

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>>84629198
no, what i'm trying to say is how Frank & Cap are both kind of cut from the same cloth in their origins, with this desire to serve (it of course goes off the rails for Frank because of one very bad day and his war wasn't as "clean" as Cap's). if you ever meet military guys irl, they all have a very similar profile

Frank's love of Cap is such a borderline redeeming quality. There is a hint of humanity still in Castle, obviously there is not but the IDEA that there COULD be is fun to play with. Whedon rejects those things about Frank completely and I understand why he hates him, but my criticism on Whedon is that he will not even entertain these flaws (and in Frank's case the defining one) to give the character a chance, and that is the mark of a closed-minded writer.

What I'm trying to illustrate is because Whedon cannot accept a character like Frank because he kills, he is being unfair to everything about that archetype. And Frank's origin is similar to that patriot man wanting to join the armed forces that Cap obviously has. Even if Frank never became the punisher i would suspect whedon wouldn't like him because his killing in vietnam was as "just" as Steve's killing in WWII, but the fog of war is a product of their times

Whedon doesn't hate Cap but he has a slightly-not-quite-deep but superficial surface understanding of Cap and it shows. His Cap is like the token leader but being morally right can't be the only trait but that's all Whedon really brushes up on. I'm not sure if it was him or Marvel that had the entire framing of Avengers 1 from Cap's POV to adjust post-thaw but that would've been a much better choice, I have no idea why it was scrapped

Did he even display super strength in this movie at all beyond the punching bag scene and kinda budging Loki? At least let him lift a metal slab or something, sheesh.

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>>84628913
the thing is, i'm leftist as fuck and i love all sorts of characters like frank or a conflicted cap fighting against a corrupt machine while still maintaining his views. hell i love miller's newer batman stuff even though i disagree with it

whedon's leftism is identity politics left, which i hate. it's not "pure leftism" (i know that's borderline no true scotsman, but in this day and age there is a clear divide in the left)

brubaker is just as left as whedon but his cap is miles better because he can put his politics aside (most of the time), with whedon it's a big part of him (see all his female characters), there's nothing really too wrong with this, as it's what's made whedon so successful, but it is a negative when he's trying to write a character like steve

i suspect if whedon ever wrote batman, he'd try to downplay the miller stuff and make him more of the 70s james bondish batman and maybe involve bruce more as a force for social good

>>84629565
Kinda budging Loki is not a small feat. Whedon is just really shit at choreography and action.

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>>84629153
she's definitely on the run from everybody i would suspect at this point

betrayed the accords and tony, america gave her a second chance after dumping shield intel, so she can't go back. no banner dick, thank god that's over. maybe wakanda takes her in and that causes political problems for t'challa

if i had to guess she'll go looking for fury, good way to bring him back later, or maybe he finds her and brings her back/gives her renewed purpose

>>84629565
he sorta fucked up the mind controlled shield guys on the carrier and some of the aliens, but they're all mooks, so that's to be expected. even then it was kinda boring. when cap was fucking up the guys in TWS and CW classes below him the Russos and the john wick guys knew how to make tinteresting and him completely out-classing them. bucky's apartment fight was great

>>84629500
>no, what i'm trying to say is how Frank & Cap are both kind of cut from the same cloth in their origins
Yes. you've been trying to show that. And I'm saying that you're dead wrong. Frank, in many interpretations, enjoys killing much more than Cap does, and feels much less remorse about it. I think Cap feels more of a true sense of Duty to the people and Ideals of the united States than Frank does, because he has more faith in a system of law set up democraticlly than Frank does, and works with teams like the Avengers, who have permission to operate from the UN and US government (In the comics at least) And furthermore, I think this line of reasoning
>What I'm trying to illustrate is because Whedon cannot accept a character like Frank because he kills, he is being unfair to everything about that archetype.
Has no merit either. You know why he doesn't like Frank, he's said it, and it doesn't really apply to Cap either.

I think Whedon's Cap in the Avengers is something YOU don't fully understand, partly because you think the character is somehow similar to the Punisher. Whedon's Cap is not Brubaker's Cap, or the WWII Cap, and especialy not the Punisher he's the early Avengers comics, Lee and Kirby "Man-out-of-time" Cap, who is shown to get beaten down, because he's out of his depth but never truly out, because of his spirit being strong, not simply his body. who solidifies his position on the team because of his tactics, and his passionate defending of his ideals.

>>84628290
>Captain Franked

Is there a comic out there like this?

>>84629116
>pure boyscout

Civil War has Cap basically defending totalitarianism based off superiority.

>We're the super humans so we have the right to disrespect national borders and act without regulation or any nation's approval

>>84629792
> Yes. you've been trying to show that. And I'm saying that you're dead wrong. Frank, in many interpretations, enjoys killing much more than Cap does, and feels much less remorse about it. I think Cap feels more of a true sense of Duty to the people and Ideals of the united States than Frank does, because he has more faith in a system of law set up democraticlly than Frank does, and works with teams like the Avengers, who have permission to operate from the UN and US government (In the comics at least)
Frank enjoys killing in some interpretations but in many others he feels absolutely nothing inside. But he believes it's what must be done so he'll keep doing it.

I should've said military origins but i thought i was being more clear on their wars in the period of their eras it's getting late i suppose. They both join as a sense of duty. Cap's is more to the people now, but when he first joins it's because he believes it's the right thing to do and he loves his country/freedom. Frank joins because he loves his country too.

Cap still has that faith because his America was more righteous then. He's the greatest generation. Frank's war was dirty as fuck and he is like every soldier coming out of Vietnam, jaded and felt completely betrayed by the system. This of course reflected and mirrored through him later when he actually becomes the punisher. but their initial reasons for joining is similar, hell you could say that steve inspired frank to join to begin with. frank wanted to be like steve at one point when he was younger and naive, and obviously it went to shit. but i still think that's noble in its sad way

cont.

>>84628661

I dunno. I think it works to sell the Avengers more as a Family after their first team up. They're familiar. They refer to each other by first name, even pick up some of the other's mannerisms. The Quippiness may be a bit grating, but honestly, it does work, especially when your family unit includes a guy like Tony Stark. Plus after being behind on the joke in the first Avengers movie, I can see Steve trying to work on the quips to better fit in. Hence why he's all business in The Winter Soldier on official SHIELD ops.

cont >>84630037

>>84630037
> Has no merit either. You know why he doesn't like Frank, he's said it, and it doesn't really apply to Cap either.
whedon hates frank because he believes frank has killed innocents. which completely dismisses a big part of his character. frank is so focused on his new war that he sticks to his own created rules of engagement as his inner bible. he only attacks criminals. now are all of them the most vile? no. but they're definitely not innocent which should be the real debate on who deserves to die but whedon is adamant that he's killed innocents & that frank's a fascist. it's totally dismissive, close-minded & not giving the character a chance. frank is infinitely more grounded in concept but whedon just rejects it

> I think Whedon's Cap in the Avengers is something YOU don't fully understand, partly because you think the character is somehow similar to the Punisher. Whedon's Cap is not Brubaker's Cap, or the WWII Cap, and especialy not the Punisher he's the early Avengers comics, Lee and Kirby "Man-out-of-time" Cap, who is shown to get beaten down, because he's out of his depth but never truly out, because of his spirit being strong, not simply his body. who solidifies his position on the team because of his tactics, and his passionate defending of his ideals.

that's not entirely true. Cap1 Steve definitely has brubaker cap in him & classic WWII cap

man out of time cap is only Avengers1 cap & the early part of TWS. feige & the russos said in all interviews they wanted to avoid the "cap learns more about the future" cliches and just jump right into him being mostly acclimated.

so what happens to Ultron Cap? TWS Cap was obviously Brubaker Cap but whedon ignores it (just like he ignored IM3 Tony). he does little lip service on his righteousness like the hammer scene and not giving up when fighting the drones in sokovia but it's very poor execution, and another poor quip on "you get killed, get back up" or whatever the flat line was

>>84629876
fraction has him as cap for a big post-civil war in war journal but it's only like 2 issues

millar has him as a cap in his ultimate avengers for a bit

there's also a what if?

>Blindly follows orders
Do you idiots really not get that he was trusting of Nick here and then that trust was broken by him finding the weapons and further crap in Ws.
What is character development?
What is becoming disolusioned over time because evidence piles up instead of being naturally paranoid?

>>84628952
You know it's going to be RDJ that gives the speech.

>>84630344
Seems to me like /co/ is alergic to character development in general. There were too many times when people criticized Civil War because "Tony told the gov to go fuck itself in IM2, why does he want oversight in CW?" completely ignoring the character development he got between the first Iron Man and Civil War.

https://youtu.be/ACL8nKOUoxk

This video explains really well the character development both Cap and Stark got through the movies. That part starts at about 4:03.

>>84631609
Stop with this meme, Whedon is not doing IW and the Russos are both Capfags.

>>84630344
>Do you idiots really not get that he was trusting of Nick here and then that trust was broken by him finding the weapons and further crap in Ws.
Not only that, at that time, the would have been better served by focusing on the mission at hand rather than coming into conflict over SHIELD's secrets, and making it easier for Loki to escape. So yeah, maybe Tony had a point, and the Tesseract shouldn't have been returned to SHIELD, but is it really the thing you need to start shit about when there's an alien trying to control the Earth?

>>84629116
>when he's on top of the truck about to fight ultron, that's a completely lost moment. whedon just has cap quip back at him. this is fucking ultron, ULTRON and the leader of the avengers. there's physical conflict but no depth
This really pissed me off. Ultron literally says something worthwhile ("You know what's inside that cradle? The power to make real change and that terrifies you.") and Cap just quips back at him which instantly nullifies any semblance of thematic writing being enforced through Ultron.

Seriously, what the fuck Whedon?

>>84632109
The whole Seoul sequence could've been removed from the movie. Same for Johannesburg.

They should've merged the two, since no characters overlapped besides the twins' heel turn.

>>84629608
>Whedon Batman

He'd write Batman as a young bachelor(think penthouse Era Bruce) while Alfred and all of his allies make fun of his tendency to brood.

>>84632109
I hate how Whedon felt the need to ruin every serious moment with a stupid joke. I think he can do great drama and everything with Vision was great because he let the character feel serious. Even stuff like "Well, I was born yesterday" didn't feel out of place because of Bettany's great delivery. Quicksilver's death was ruined by the shitty "didn't see that comink" joke. Completely took me out of the moment. It's a shame because I really like a lot of Whedon's more serious conversations.

>I see a suit of armor around the world.
>Sounds like a cold world, Tony.
>I've seen colder.

I can't even enjoy these conversations fully because he always lowers the tension and drama with jokes. I don't want a humorless film, I actually really enjoyed the first Avengers. AoU, however, would've benefited from a more serious tone. At least, let the dramatic parts be dramatic and don't ruin them with forced jokes. I feel like the Russos did better with blending drama with comedy in CW. Airport fight was funny, but when it came the time for drama and tension (last fight), they dropped the comedy.

>>84625922
But all of that is wrong.
Maybe the costume was a bit silly but eh, it's not bad.

>>84625922
>I had forgotten
No you hadn't. You have it in your head all the time, and today you thought "Hey, I'll make another thread about it!"