Best comics for gunfights? In terms of the quality of the gunfights

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Punisher Max.

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Army of Darkness, fucking duh.

>>84573887
Has anyone ever edited the scene in OP's gif to Rob Zombie like in the manga?

>>84575024
wat.

>>84573887
Probably some westerns? I'm just guessing though. I can't actually think of any specifically. Does anyone know any westerns with quality shootouts?

>>84574668
This looks kind of retarded.

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>>84573887
- Naja (Magnetic Press)
- Gun Candy (12-Gauge Comics)
- Body Bags (Dark Horse Comics & Image Comics)
- 100 Bullets (DC/Vertigo)
- Super-Patriot (Image Comics)

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>>84573887
Mitch Gerads draws good shootouts.

>>84580197
>Mitch Gerads

The guy that did Punisher?

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>>84580240
Yeah, but he does other comics too.

The gunfights in his Punisher run were really cool but that run goes off the rails quickly so be warned.

Also if you're willing to put up with capeshit Batman #43 had a really gorgeous shootout.

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Hitman had cool shootouts too but they're usually pretty wacky, dunno if that's what you're looking for.

Is there any good stuff that's more Rainbow 6 than John Woo?

>>84573887

OP, Punisher MAX is probably going to have the closest thing you want to things like the 4Fs or ambush tactics. But anything really detailed would slow the action down.

Also, I had so many high hopes for Black Lagoon until I realizef it was Gun Dance Off: The Anime.

>>84580898
>4Fs

wat.

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>>84580824
The Activity?

>>84581130
Find. Fix. Flank. Finish.

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>>84579237
>Body Bags

This is one of those comics that seemed like it COULD have been a masterpiece.

>>84580898
I still like Black Lagoon a lot. Girls of that series are the best

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>>84578666
>A series about time traveling Demon zombies that can only be stopped by a guy with a Chainsaw for a hand.

>>84581635
The manga is fucking one of the best ever.

>>84579237
Bullets are longer than that.
There's not enough surface area for the case to hold it or for the rifling to impart spin.
That thing would tumble like a flipped penny.

Why the fuck does manga have better gunfights than American comics?

>>84582458
But it doesn't.

>>84582458

How the fuck are we supposed to answer as subjective a question as that? Why do you prefer the color blue over green, anon?

>>84582472
It really fucking does though. Like it's not even close.

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The Last Days of American Crime

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Army of Darkness is cool, but it isn't really gun fighting, more like demon hunting.

>>84581156
Already read it and liked it. I'm the guy who recommended Mitch Gerads earlier in the thread.

>>84582627
>Why do you prefer the color blue over green, anon?
Because he has shit taste
Don't get me wrong blue is a great color but it can't hold a candle to green only thing that can even come close is purple

>>84580898
Punisher MAX is also full of plot armor and Hollywood bullshit.

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>>84582627
It's not subjective tought. While comics have been masturbating over superheroes for decades, manga have been describing reality in a more detailed way.

>>84582458
Because manga typically does action better than western comics

Unless you're looking for realism, you're not going to find better gunfights than Gunsmith Cats

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>>84573887
>no one mentioned the losers
shame on you, /co

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>>84575403
No really, in the manga she kills the shit out of those guys while listening to Electric Head. A few other songs later too, but they couldn't afford to license them for the show.

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>>84582458
>>84582472
>>84582629
>>84584526
>>84584539
>Why the fuck does manga have better gunfights than American comics?
>Because manga typically does action better than western comics
I have to say it's also because usually when some mangaka is doing a manga or doujin about gunfights, they're usually a weaponsfag and know all about guns and put tons of detail into the writing and art.

In western comics there's usually a different writer and different artist and since they're probably just some employees for a bigger company they usually don't know shit and guns to them are just two blocks that people use to kill each other.

>>84580898
>Also, I had so many high hopes for Black Lagoon until I realizef it was Gun Dance Off: The Anime.
And that's a problem becaussssse...?

>>84584477

True, but occasionally you get some flashes of actual theory and firearms knowledge alongside the machismo, stupidity, and hyperbolic political commentary.

>>84584526

> [Preference] is not subjective though.

Oh you, always such a kidder.

> Manga better describes reality
> Uses a picture from a comic where a 19-year-old owns and has mastered every firearm in the world. Oh, and she's also a bounty hunter who takes down terrorists for her day job.

To be fair, outside of westerns, the odd military/tactical movie, or Tom Clancy/Chris Ryan novels, I don't know of much fiction accurately concerned with 'operating', especially in comics.

>>84584539 was right though. Gunsmith Cat's does have some awesome gun fights for being written by a Nipponese who has likely never handled let alone shot a firearm in his life.

Ghost in the Shell had some good shoot outs as well, but I don't know if the manga compares.

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>>84585021

I went in expecting more Ghost in the Shell than Trigun. Not saying it was a bad comic, just not my cup of tea.

>>84582458
Because America digs the fuck out of standing still an firing a machine gun.
>>84574306

Black Lagoon's gunfights are cheating OP. The entire anime is centered around the. Also Roberta is best girl.

>>84578666
>Army of Darkness
>Retarded.
You sir have no taste.

>>84574668
WHO RULES!

>>84585645
Hell yeah
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ-EOg38t1o

>>84584526
Too bad they still can't do faces right.
Look at that fucking eyeball and tell me where it's supposed to be oriented on her face.
And don't give me that "it's a style" bullshit either. This artist probably spent hours getting every detail on that gun just right but couldn't take a minute to make sure that chick's eye wasn't sticking out the side of her face.
Also that gun's handle looks like it's been drawn at a different angle than the rest of it's body.
Also fuck you.

>>84584526
There are three things in this world that Kenichi Sonoda loves. Guns, American muscle cars and lolis.

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>There will never be a scence as awesome as the bar introduction in the first episode of Trigun
Feels bad man

>>84585451
>don't know if the manga compares.
Masamune Shirow does some of my favorite fight sequences in all of comics in GiTS and Appleseed

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>>84586129

Too bad the show was wasted on a gun toting pacifist. Might as well have just called it 'Kenshin Goes West'.

Pic related would have made a better protag.

>>84586224
So did Millie and the Preacher man fuck?

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>>84585952
It's a style :^)

>Also that gun's handle looks like it's been drawn at a different angle than the rest of it's body.

What handle? Are you talking about the disassembled barrel? Do you even recognize what that gun is or you think every gun is an AR15?

>>84586236
Yes. The important question is if she got pregnant so he will live on

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If you like Vietnam war stuff, Punisher: Born was a pretty good read, even if Frank was a little more off-kilter than usual.

>>84586224
> Vash's pacifism is what gets Wolfwood killed
Show sending mixed messages

>>84586224
Way to miss the entire point of the series.

>>84585015
>usually when some mangaka is doing a manga or doujin about gunfights, they're usually a weaponsfag and know all about guns and put tons of detail into the writing and art.
>In western comics there's usually a different writer and different artist and since they're probably just some employees for a bigger company they usually don't know shit and guns to them are just two blocks that people use to kill each other.
This might be bigger than guns. I think what you're saying is that mangaka have more creative freedom and write the shit they draw, which means they can infuse their work with shit they're passionate about. Just at the offset, there's going to be more care put into manga.

This makes me even sadder about the state of western comics.

>>84586243

I think the problem is that her hair breaks up the stock shape, creating the illusion that the perspective is off.

>>84586373
No he was clearly talking about the dissasembled barrel, showing he knows nothing and spit shit out of his mouth. Everything else is just nitpicking.

>>84586358
>the state of western comics.

Just the Big 2, plenty of passion being but into comics at other publishers. Emma Rios has a fencing instructor review her fight choreography in Pretty Deadly

>>84585645
>Running around while firing a machine gun.
>Completely fucking up your aim.

Weeb fights are /way/ too flashy.

>>84585952
but they can, lots of them anyway, Most really good Japanese artists actually do draw from real life but animu style is what's popular and what everyone enjoys so they go to that once they feel they're good enough. When they don't they usually nuke their Pixivs which gets annoying after the 4th time.

>>84586358
I think its less creative freedom and more that anyone can have a chance to publish doujins and maybe mangas there if it gets popular enough.

People who have a story they want to tell can tell it, car fags can do things like Initial D, sports fags can do what they want, even ping pong has a chance.

It can even be super niche and still become popular, maybe because people like hearing someone who is passionate about something to a ridiculous degree.
>Captcha is cars
Initial D for example, I give no fuck about cars but that anime made me care.

>>84585896
100% Groovy

>>84585952
Do you realize she is blowing in the barrel so the mouth is not central and that's why the left eyes seems off?

>>84586429
Nah dude, the perspective looked fucky to me too til I stared at it for a while and got a grasp on what the shapes were supposed to be. It has nothing to do with gun knowledge. People can criticize stuff that has guns in it without knowing anything about guns. It's okay anon, you don't have to be a gun. You choose.

>>84586334

It's been nearly a decade since I read it, so let me amend my post:

If you are a super powered living weapon thing written by an author who doesn't believe characters should die easily in action movies, feel free to practice pacifism. You'll probably make it out okay by loving your enemies.

Anybody else will just eat a bullet and die while only being more interesting and plausible given the setting.

>>84586597
>he criticize the drawing because the "handle" seems detached from the body
>the "handle" is actually detached from the body and is intentional

He's opinion is invalid, end of the discussion.

>>84586690
intended for
>>84586564

>>84585952
>i just want pretty faces, fuck good action

you are why comics are boring

>>84586597
I see it as a dilemma similar to the one in the Iron Giant. The main character is, by nature, a weapon. However, he struggles with trying to chose to not be a weapon. In this case, Vash decides to utilize his violent nature in a nonlethal way. The manga and anime never explicitly state that what Vash is doing is indeed the right thing, and in fact there are many instances where Vash's pacifism only makes the situation worse. I think that's what I liked so much about Trigun. It shows an MC who isn't always in the right, and who almost always pays for being wrong. It isn't a story about pacifism as much as it is about sticking to your principles.

>>84585015
Source?

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>>84586970
Artist is Imizu, a big gunfag, he does a lot of touhou doujins, that being one of them, you can read it here. http://exhentai.org/g/636689/9c5562d68f/ or here
http://danbooru.donmai.us/pools/4129

He's pretty gud, wish he did Girls und Panzer doujins though instead of just fanart

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>>84587198
>http://exhentai.org/
Is it NSFW?

>>84587273
Not this doujin, but he's done one or two lewd ones before.

>>84586908
This guy gets it.

So, do you think he killed Knives in the end or not? I thought it was obvious he did when I first saw it, then years later I found out some people actually believe he just wounded him... somehow. The bit where he tells Ren's anime-horizon-ghost that he will always remember her, but that he needs to make his own choices now seemed pretty clear.

>>84586485
>but animu style is what's popular and what everyone enjoys
We're cracking the code here, boys. Artists gotta make compromises to gain an audience.

Japs gotta draw big-eyed freaks to bring in the readers; otherwise they can do what they want, including making it black and white to keep cost down and speed up production.

Murricans HAVE TO draw uncanny valley body builders in full-color spandex fighting alien gods with their eye-lasers.

In short, we should all go buy black and white comix.

>>84584526
I am still mad about Burst

>>84585952
But i like that style, it doesnt have to look like fucking actually human.

>>84586464
I like that, it looks kinda cool

>>84584526
>>84582458
>>84574572
>>84573887
>>84586485

Its a ''/a/ makes a troll thread on /co/ so just he can fellate animu and mangos as the superior form of entertainment'' episode

>>84584983

this is dumb as fuck, holy shit.

>>84573887
100 Bullets is pretty good in my opinion.

>>84588357
...anon. You're on a forum where a guy in a bat suit fights crazed clowns and ninjas on a daily. Come on.

>>84589912
Yup. It loses steam towards the end and is left pretty fucking open.

>>84588327
>as the superior form of entertainment

Not at all. I just think manga has a tendency to do action scenes better than Western comics on the whole, but there are plenty of Western artists who do great fight scenes like Frank Quiely, Michel Fiffe, James Harren, or Emma Rios

>>84575024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpI1YhdxQdg

>>84587664
But it's terrible caricature that shows the artist has almost no knowledge of human anatomy. You can like animu blobs if you want, but that still doesn't change that they're mechanically mediocre.

>>84589993
I understand that the ending didn't really answer some of the more important questions in the series, but I thought it did a really good job regardless. That final scene of Graves cradling Dizzy was some powerful stuff.

>>84590160
True but damn I had this feeling that she'd inherit the mantel. Then boom crippled and bleeding out!

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>>84590463
>CoD

>>84587588
Why?

Outside of the western and war genres and Punisher there's, uh...

... uh...

...

>>84591427
It has Larry Hama writing so it's worth a glance at least.

>>84585694
for some reason I want to see Black Lagoon vs Predator

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>94 replies and no one has brought up that the king of shooters got his own series.

I'm ashamed in all of you. Should I storytime?

>>84593492
Yes!

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>>84593618
Ask and you shall receive anon. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9FzgsF2T-s

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>>84593802

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>>84593817

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>>84593838

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>>84593867

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>>84593883

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>>84593920

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>>84593949

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>>84593973
What's a 007 story without a trippy ass intro music video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDe1xi4tGUA

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>>84594000

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>>84594030

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>>84594053
Fucking druggies.

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>>84594098

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>>84594128

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>>84594144

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>>84594157

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>>84594175

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>>84594192
Old Q is back! And not that young hipster piece of shit!

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>>84594222

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>>84594237

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>>84594247

>>84594237

> G2R

Oh Jesus H. Christ, really?

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>>84594266

>>84594222
This is John Cleese isn't it?
Fucking awesome.

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>>84594304
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWVbVT3igdw

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>>84594350

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>>84594372

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>>84594388

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>>84594405

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>>84594486

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>>84594517

>>84594517
Did... did she just kick the door off the car?
Jesus.

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>>84594532

I can't help but think that this would be so much more enjoyable if it had a better colorist. The artist is pretty good at framing action sequences, but the coloring makes it look like garbage.

>>84594559
It kinda varies between really good and not that great, yeah.

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>>84594551
>>84594543
Yeeeaaah, more on that to come.

>>84594559

I like the coloring in the beginning though, when he's chasing the dude who iced 008.

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>>84594593

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>>84594682

>>84594593
Is she an android?

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>>84594701

>>84594593
The first sequence was definitely not as bad. I think the colorist works better with a darker color scheme.

>>84594725
>Powered Prostheses
Ohhhh.

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>>84594725

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>>84594806

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>>84594824
>>84594711
>>84594790
You were close enough.

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>>84594853

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>>84594888
Fucking bath salts.

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>>84594910
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9p0FJnk2vM

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>>84594969

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>>84594985

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>>84595002

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>>84595012

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>>84595053

File: James Bond - Digital Exclusive Edition 003-007.jpg (2MB, 1988x3056px) Image search: [Google]

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>>84595066

File: James Bond - Digital Exclusive Edition 003-008.jpg (2MB, 1988x3056px) Image search: [Google]

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>>84595083

File: James Bond - Digital Exclusive Edition 003-009.jpg (1MB, 1988x3056px) Image search: [Google]

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>>84595103

File: James Bond - Digital Exclusive Edition 003-010.jpg (1MB, 1988x3056px) Image search: [Google]

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>>84595124
This bullet looks lethal as fuck.

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>>84595141

File: James Bond - Digital Exclusive Edition 003-012.jpg (1MB, 1988x3056px) Image search: [Google]

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>>84595159

>>84595141
>Wo is der Bastard
That's some wacky as fuck half German

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>>84595176

File: James Bond - Digital Exclusive Edition 003-014.jpg (1MB, 1988x3056px) Image search: [Google]

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>>84595213

File: James Bond - Digital Exclusive Edition 003-015.jpg (2MB, 1988x3056px) Image search: [Google]

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>>84595247

>>84590059
But that's wrong, evwrything but the head is in proportion, it might be some idealized perfect version of men and women's bodies but literally artists have been doing that forever

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>>84595266

File: James Bond - Digital Exclusive Edition 003-017.jpg (1MB, 1988x3056px) Image search: [Google]

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>>84595285
>>84595182
Wa doer Yu mean a noon?

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>>84595311

File: James Bond - Digital Exclusive Edition 003-019.jpg (1MB, 1988x3056px) Image search: [Google]

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>>84595327

File: James Bond - Digital Exclusive Edition 003-020.jpg (1MB, 1988x3056px) Image search: [Google]

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>>84595367
At least he went out with dignity.

File: James Bond - Digital Exclusive Edition 003-021.jpg (1MB, 1988x3056px) Image search: [Google]

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>>84595400

>>84582458
More attention to detail and generally shows movement much better than western comics

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>>84595423

>>84595423
>>84595449
These kids are bonkers.

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>>84595449

File: bicycle.gif (342KB, 153x113px) Image search: [Google]

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>>84586485
>even ping pong has a chance.

Fuck yeah, Anime Of The Year.

>mfw this track plays
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxK4flTeynw

>>84595449
These two freak me out.

>>84593492
Yes this comic was a surprise to being a actually decent Janes bond story

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>>84595472
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGPBFvDz_HM

>Gore as detailed as Punisher Max.

Man, what if the movies were this hard?

>>84595509
Ellis does a pretty good job when he wants too.

>>84594030
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iUC8dJ0D6sA
>Theme music plays in the background

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>>84595522
>>84595423
>>84595449
>Implying you wouldn't be an absolute loon too if you killed people for money.

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>>84595576
>>84595530
People would likely complain sadly. I'd love to see gorey 007 movie.

>>84595124

Excellent use of an x-ray panel

>>84595141

> This bullet looks lethal as fuck.

Sadly, G2 is basically Billy Mays getting into the ammo business. Looks great, but preforms abysmally in independent tests.

>>84594098
>"I'm starting to think this stuff is t natural"
You don't say

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>>84595601
Meant to send this >>84595576
to >>84595491
>>84595471

>>84595576
>Bond's obsession with 'tradecraft'

I love this comic.

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>>84595638

>>84594222
No guns in country even for 00 agents

>>84595656
I like that you get the vague feeling that Bond is some sort of immortal in this comic, that he's been at this since the Cold War and just hasn't aged.
So you get the occasional moment where he's a crotchety old man about all the amateurs he has to work with.

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>>84595660

>>84595472

Do the British armed police carry M4's now?

>>84594888
>>84594910
Holy fuck

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>>84595704
>>84595696
But of course. But him carrying around a bullet that opens up inside someone and completely fucks up their insides? Perfectly fine.

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>>84595759

File: James Bond - Digital Exclusive Edition 004-009.jpg (1MB, 1988x3056px) Image search: [Google]

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>>84595783

>>84595327
So what is she doing here?

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>>84595808

>>84595367
What would yoir final words be /co/?

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>>84595834
>>84595831
The office job equivalent of chasing butterflies on a baseball field?

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>>84595860
>>84595857
Probably begging not to be killed, but if I was the man I wish I was it would be his.

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>>84595887

>>84595701
I hear that's what they were going for since bond as a character is a fucking dinosaur in a modern day setting a alcoholic spy asshole that's a relic from the the 60s

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>>84595913

>>84595913

Oh the irony. You said Ellis wrote this?

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>>84595933
>>84595929
That's what I like about him.

>>84595860
Id say something sexually uncomfortable like I have a massive erection or I have a 2 foot dislike up my ass probably would work but it's make home think twice

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>>84595967
>>84595961
That is correct.

>>84595982
>"Didlo"

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>>84595998

>>84595913
That fourth panel reactin

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>>84596032
>>84596008
Nah, keep it as dislike. It adds to the confusion and precious time.

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>>84596055
>>84596048
And the one after could be the opposite reaction. Like yin and yang.

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>>84596093

File: walther_p99.jpg (40KB, 600x384px) Image search: [Google]

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>>84596032

> 2016
> All metal frame P99

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>>84596105

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>>84596117
>>84596106
Damn, nice attention to detail.

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If anyone wants to feel like Bond, play the new Hitman. All the levels are straight out of a Bond flick. Secret Government spy ring in a French Fashion Show? Check. Secret biolab under a Italian town? Check. Media mogul in cahoots with corrupt government? Check.

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>>84596151
Sorry, I had to make the image smaller because for some reason I couldn't post it.

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>>84596231
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0q0ilju3tU

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>>84596300

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>>84596315

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>>84596332

>>84596105
>>84596117
>>84596151
>>84596231
>>84596315
>>84596332
This all could have been prevented if bad guy just watched Bond die.

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>>84596354

File: James Bond 005 (2016) (Digital-Empire)007.jpg (1MB, 1988x3056px) Image search: [Google]

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>>84596372
>>84596358
He's one man, they all probably think all the stories about him doing the impossible are just bullshit.

>>84596372

That's actually a pretty good bit.

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>>84596397

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>>84596423

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>>84596442

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>>84596455

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>>84596475

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>>84596493

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>>84596510

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>>84596522

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>>84596548

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>>84596567

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>>84596605

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>>84596629

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>>84596640

>>84595857
Ohhhh SHIIIIIIII-

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>>84596654
You're a fucking white male!

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>>84596678
Tumblr BTFO!

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>>84596709

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>>84596725

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>>84596754
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D1nK7q2i8I

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>>84596784

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>>84596805

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>>84596817

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>>84596834

File: James Bond 006 (2016) (Digital-Empire)007.jpg (1MB, 1988x3056px) Image search: [Google]

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>>84596857

>>84596678
>>84596709
Is there a page missing between these two?

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>>84596870

>>84594222
>>84594349
>>84595696

Ellis' series is supposed to be a modernized take on Bond, in line with the novels, thus the whole no gun thing, and the characters having no basis on any actors.

>>84595831

I assume throwing the papers at the intruder in an attempt to distract him/throw off his aim.

>>84573887
Legs.

Also, fuck of back to /a/.

>>84586274
She was.

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>>84596904
>>84596893
None that was in the file I downloaded this in.

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>>84596961

File: thats my fetish.jpg (164KB, 1936x732px) Image search: [Google]

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>>84596151

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>>84596981

File: James Bond 006 (2016) (Digital-Empire)012.jpg (1MB, 1988x3056px) Image search: [Google]

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>>84596997
>>84596982
Kek

>>84587454
Knives is alive. Dude has taken an Angel-Arm blast point blank before.

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>>84597019

>>84596961
Weird. They don't fit together at all.

>>84596893

nope, thats how it is.
I guess she assumed he couldn't do much to her, and had turned her back on him (based on the last two dialogues of the first page), so while walking away he jumped up and kicked her (first panel of second page).

and Ellis/the editors thought we could work that out logically...

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>>84597030

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>>84597050

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>>84597083

File: James Bond 006 (2016) (Digital-Empire)017.jpg (1MB, 1988x3056px) Image search: [Google]

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>>84597100

>>84597100
I love that middle panel, but that last turn looks goofy as fuck.

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>>84597122

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>>84597100
God's thumbs, those bullets are brutal as fuck.

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>>84597138
>>84597132
Yeah, but the judges did give him a 10/10.

>>84596105
>shredded bodies from the inside
>Bond is using RIPD rounds
huh

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>>84597163
>>84597148
Could you imagine getting shot by that? It doesn't matter where you're shot, you're fucked either way.

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>>84597197

>>84596358
Bond exudes an aura that causes villains to lose interest in him just moments before he dies.
I expect it's something Q puts in his cologne.

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>>84597213

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>>84597230
>>84597226
Is that what causes hot babes to flock around him?

>>84597030

Damn, she was throwing up 2 plate. The test is strong with this one.

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>>84597259
I let feel bad for him.

>>84597288
His idea of beautiful things where disease and death, his friends are jailers.

I don't know if this is the end, Bond-anon, but thanks for the story time so far. Pretty interesting and brutal take on Bond. I like it so far.

>>84597288

Maybe Bond was worried a jury might do the same.

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>>84597288
But wait! There's more! The most recent issue of 007. Sadly, this is the last one we have so far.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=213t3YeQosE

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>>84597394

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>>84597413

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>>84597423

>>84596442
I always like how Bond is treated like a dangerously competent moron by his superiors.
Like, he gets results, and they acknowledge that, but you get the feeling that they've had a death pool going on him since the sixties and they're continually pissed off because he just won't die.

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>>84597446

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>>84597471
>>84597452

>Killing Bond

>Implying they're brave enough

>>84573887
>>84574572
>>84584526
Here, (you) have it.

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>>84597502

>>84596397
Peter Franks, I think that was the diamond smuggler in Diamonds are Forever, right?

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>>84597542

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>>84597554
>>84597544
Yep, he was the dude in the elevator. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjUSEoD2CTE

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>>84597595
I'm having flashbacks to License to Kill and it's making me sad. To be Felix is suffering.

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>>84597615

>>84597506
Thank (you)

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>>84597638

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>>84597663

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>>84597681

>>84597050
Jesus Christ, did she put Bond's head through a damn light fixture.
Fucking hell.

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>>84597696

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>>84597730
>>84597722
It's okay, Bond put a bullet through her's.

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>>84597749