Do you find yourself still able to enjoy work by writers/artists

Depends on if their bullshit bleeds into their work
I have no cartoon/comic example, but there is a very old picture of Metallica's James and Lars giving a Nazi salute...when I listen to a lot of their music, I don't really hear anything that supports that and at times seems against it....so it doesn't bother me, might have been a good.

On the other hand, Pantera have always been under the "are they racist?" lamp lyrically, and givin Phil Anselmo's recent antics I don't fuck with anything he was involved with anymore

Yes, I simply put the creator out of my mind and appreciate the work for what it is.

Varies but generally yes. like i can watch annie hall but manhattan is kinda strange now (despite a perfect opening).

Nobody's perfect

It's a little difficult for me to watch Bill Cosby's stand-up and The Cosby Show now but I can still deal.

>>83822757
My view of the artist definitely colours my view of the work. For instance, Ferris Bueller used to be one of my favorite movies, but knowing that Jeffery Jones is a sex offender who went after teenage boys changes the way I see the character.

And Dave Sim has said such outrageous things about women, that I can't help but wonder what issues he's working through in the female characters he presents. I can't simply take the work as-is.

>>83823736
Matthew Broderick also killed two women and got a slap on the wrists for it.

>>83822757
Depends how terrible they are.
I generally won't financially support them if they're bad, though, even if I still enjoy their work.

>>83823459
b8

>>83823736
>And Dave Sim has said such outrageous things about women, that I can't help but wonder what issues he's working through in the female characters he presents. I can't simply take the work as-is.
Dave Sim worked on Cerebus for over 25 years.

He changed A LOT during that time, so he wasn't the same person from beginning until the end.

He still loved women (both in real life and strong fictional characters) when he was writing the classics like High Society and Jaka's Story, and he didn't begin to change until the buildup towards issue #200, and he wasn't completely committed to his madness until around issue #265.

>>83822757
Not even a decision I really have to make with John K seeing as he has a self inflicted tiny body of work thats even good and has shown time and time again he's incompetent or just plain incapable of making anything new of worth.

>>83822757
Terrible people generally show it through their terrible work.

>>83823936
Addendum: Dave Sim is not a terrible person. He is sick (he has schizophrenia) and he needs help (but he chooses to go untreated).

He deserves sympathy or at least pity, but not scorn.

>>83823936
>>83823987
t. Dave Sim

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>>83822757
Depends. If they're just a bad person, like a douchebag, sure, I don't care. Bill Murray seems like an asshole, I still like Ghostbusters.

If they push their politics into things? Depends. I didn't care for Zootopia at all because it was nothing but a big political message from a bunch of ivory tower liberals in Hollywood, but it had much bigger problems (for me personally) than that alone preventing me from enjoying it.

Then again I can still enjoy Watchmen, even when Alan Moore was trying to push his politics, but he was so bad at doing it that he accidentally made Rorshach into the hero.

>>83822757
>do your views of the person get in the way of enjoying their works
Other way around. THEIR views get into their works, and one day that artist you follow suddenly starts preaching about diversity and privilege and non-binaryism, etc. And then the content they put out is Progressiveness first, art/storytelling second.

>>83822840
>Depends on if their bullshit bleeds into their work
This. Pretty simple really, if they're creating good stories but I don't agree with their personal opinions then no, I don't care. If they're basically creating propaganda for a view I don't agree with though, I'm not going to enjoy it.

I feel like a bigger problem these days is dumb audiences presuming authors agree with and endorse the actions of their characters, especially in the case of protagonists.

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>>83822757
I'm able to put past my personal views on live-action people more than cartoonists. I can still watch Mel Gibson shit just fine. Cartoonists, more often than not, will have their viewpoints and beliefs bleed into their work. Which is okay, most writers usually create strawmen in their work to make a point, but it gets to the point when the mouthpiece is often stronger than the story. We're starting to see a lot of this shit in /co/ where stuff like being gay is a character trait or if a character is an alien/robot, they will go on a tangent about how they do not identify as certain genders for obvious pandering to certain communities.

Adventure Time comes to mind and how the quality fluctuates with who is writing it (The lamp comes to mind). And of course the obvious one with Natasha's Hellcat, "Oh, didn't you know? I'm bisexual!" bit.

Sometimes someone just being dickish enough makes me annoyed at watching a show I like that they work on. Maybe it's because I hate how successful they are while still having a shitty attitude or something. Is it envy or jealousy? It's just like, Jesus Christ, Matt, you work on fucking Steven Universe, get the stick out of your ass, enjoy life, you are fortunate than most people in your own industry right now.

>>83824044
>dumb audiences presuming authors agree with and endorse the actions of their characters, especially in the case of protagonists.
Oh yeah. That too. People can't tell fiction from real life anymore. I blame the boom of social media for dissolving the barrier between what's written on a computer screen and the outside world at large.

>>83824113
I think it's more the case that the sort of people who get mad about the actions of protagonists are the sort of people who write self-insert mary sue fanfics and think every other writer is doing the same. They simply don't understand that someone would write a main character who is flawed or wrong, and think they must believe wholeheartedly in everything the character does.

>>83824113
>>83824193

I think you both make excellent points.

>>83824088
I really don't see why people would have issues with those tweet.

>>83824088
What about male gems for gay males to identify with, Matt?

The gay relationships I see in cartoons nowadays always seem to be female/female. Where is the catering to the gay male demographic?

I don't give a shit about the person behind the art. Why anyone does is beyond me.
I can even appreciate piece of media that push an ideology different from mine if they're well done or entertaining.

>>83824411
>I can even appreciate piece of media that push an ideology different from mine if they're well done or entertaining

I agree with this. It's always good to open your mind to other points of view, even if you strongly disagree.

>>83824193
You'd think that, and I used to think that, too, but over the course time I've become more and more convinced that some people simply have some form of very deep emotional AND moral connection with whatever they watch or read and which transcends mere interest in the narrative.

As in, if this cartoon here or that comic over there - or even a single piece of fanart that doesn't cling to any actual narrative - contains something "mean-spirited", people get genuinely fired up about it; and not because of emotional connection to the character. No, they actually lash against the artist for being cruel, sick, racist, sexist, etc. Even if the content depicted makes perfect sense in-universe, people are quick to blame the author for being "insensitive" (whatever other term is in vogue right now).

Like those people that claim to have broken into tears or started hyperventilating after reading some "mean" comment on some site. I used to think they were exaggerating, but now I'm pretty sure these thin-skinned bozos are actually like that. And they believe everybody else is like that as well. Hence their wishes for censoring everything and enforcing political correctness and "Representation" upon all media. Hence why they see fiction should reflect real life issues at all times, fantasy and imagination be damned.

Just like the Speedy Gonzalez debacle long ago: in the end, it was white liberals getting TRIGGERED for other people, while the latinos and hispanics themselves had no problem and actually liked the mouse.

Like >>83824259 points out. He cannot imagine why people would get so riled up over a meaningless twitter. And neither can I. And the writer of American Psycho, from what I've read recently, cannot either.

But some people ARE like that. They just can't handle teh bantz. They cannot handle anything at all, and believe everyone is like them.

>>83824411
>if they're well done or entertaining.
That's usually not the case, however.

>>83824609
>it was white liberals getting TRIGGERED for other people, while the latinos and hispanics themselves had no problem and actually liked the mouse.

I hate this. I consider myself to be on the side of social justice most of the time (call me that c-word, whatever), but I can't stand when people speak for an "oppressed" group of people without letting them speak for themselves. It's like how 95% of the people I've seen complain that you can't play as a female Link in the new Zelda game are male journalists, when all of my female Zelda fan friends couldn't give a shit one way or the other. If you get offended on behalf of a group that you are not apart of, then you are equally as bad as the people oppressing them.

>>83824360
>Where is the catering to the gay male demographic?
The animation industry is dominated by straight guys. Guy don't want to see male/male relationships, they want to see cute lesbians. Gay men are also much more taboo than lesbians.

It's why children's stuff will have "hint hint lesbians" while all adult cartoons will have gay men flying everywhere.

>>83824628
That's true of most pieces of media though. In fact it's worse when something you agree with is represented poorly.

>>83824682
>>83824609
this desu desu, especially with the speedy gonzalez debacle it felt really strange because you had different caricatures at play with all those characters that it didn't feel offensive. I can understand why some latinos felt offended by it but I certainly never did but whenever you have a certain person telling you you should be offended it feels so patronizing and to a certain extent offensive. Like why couldn't you make something like Speedy, white people getting upset over it almost makes it seem like to them Mexicans are like Harambe or some shit, like they need to protect Mexicans because they can't protect themselves.

>>83824035
>ivory tower liberals

The message in Zootopia was pretty balanced dude. Hate, prejudice, and use of violence can come from either side of the political spectrum, the fact it was Smellweather seems to shit on the left more than anything.

Also, it's so gorgeous.

>>83824682
Cuck.

>>83822757
Yes, I don't care as long as their stuff is good.

>>83822757
I have trouble reading Moore's stuff because his cynicism makes those aspects overwhelming as I read.

>>83824891
>the fact it was Smellweather seems to shit on the left more than anything.
It certainly flew way over the leftists' heads, from what I've seen.

>>83825288
Judging by this thread, it's not the leftists who missed the point.

>>83825315
Explain.

>>83822757
EVERYONE in comics is an irredeemable bastard.

>>83822840
>being a sjw

you don't belong here

>>83825315
no, judging by this thread you sjws are literally illiterate and incapable of understanding ANYTHING

>>83825358
Well, >>83824035 is complaining about liberals and yet nobody missed the point harder than >>83824035.

>>83825378
>>83825408
This is how the thread dies.

When we are no longer talking about creators and instead we are throwing accusations at each other.

This is how /co/ dies.

zootopia is garbage propaganda and no I don't enjoy the works of people who stabbed me in the back and slander my name. FUCK YOU.

Oh boy! /pol/ and tumblr are here. Now instead of discussing things reasonably we can argue about how having any respect for people of a different race or gender makes you an SJW cuck, and how not enjoying liberal propaganda makes you a literal Nazi.

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>>83823765
I didn't hear about this one. Did he full-on slaughter them?

>>83825504
He was driving recklessly, possibly drunk, in Ireland and got in a head-on collision with a car, killing the two women inside instantly. He got off with a charge of $175 and he never bothered meeting the family of the victims or even apologized.

>>83825378
>Muh echo chamber

>>83825428
You're redirecting to the post that started this chain in the first place.

Literally circular logic.

>>83825925
That's not what circular logic is.

>>83825956
Explain how >>83824035 "missed the point", then.

>>83825925
The claim is that leftists missed the point, but in this very thread, the only person who missed the point is a non-leftist.

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>it's a thinly veiled shit slinging thread where anons mask their political own opinions behind creators that agree (or they believe agree) with them

>>83825980
They think that the political message is from "a bunch of ivory tower liberals in Hollywood" and not something more moderate.

>>83823736
I never understood the vitriol against Dave Sim. He's clearly suffering from some form and level of mental illness. I feel the same way about Frank Miller. Maybe its because I've dealt with mental illness in myself and others all my life, but the final stretch of Cerebus and The Dark Knight Strikes Again both scream "mental/emotional issues" to me. The paranoia, the incoherence, its all so textbook. I don't get how people read this stuff and just think "I guess he's a dick"

>>83824043
I really appreciate that George Miller still put the art first in Fury Road even though he's all into feminism now.

>>83824088
Why does Matt seem like such a fucking nu-male?

Also literally nobody cares if there are "male gems" or not. They like to shit on people who do, but nobody ever actually *does*.

>>83826099

The difference is Miller's DKSA was such a politically charged statement and it was happening during the most politically charged times in America in decades. I'm not saying you're wrong but DKSA reads like a typical post-9/11 knee jerk response and there was a TON of that happening at the time in all forms of media.

Dave Sim's work is much more personal and is really about his personal outlook of the world that was entirely disconnected from current events

>>83826099
People really aren't that good at empathy, so they compensate by projecting.

>>83822757
Really, who isn't a terrible person?
I can read it fine if I don't know about it and if I know I can get over it as long as their writing doesn't suffer.

Most of the time it does, however.

>>83825480
>/pol/ and tumblr are here.
/co/ is made up of people who share a love comics and cartoons, but have varying worldviews and beliefs. There is nothing wrong with that and it invigorates the board desu.

>>83823736
I cannot believe you actually have ever even attempted to read Cerebus. His over the top misogyny wasn't a thing until his insanity which was not until well into his work.
>>83824026
t. Tumblr/reddit faggots who do this bullshit "t." thing instead of responding to the post as if it were the actual person like "Hi Dave" or "Seek help Sim". Fuck you you casual newfag shit. Yes I mad.

>>83826202

We're trying to have a serious discussion here anon

>>83826230
>There is nothing wrong with that and it invigorates the board desu.

So where are you invading from, /pol/ or /tv/ or both?

>>83826099
Sim was diagnosed Schizo but never got treatment

>>83826219
Its not even the politics that make me think he was unwell at the time, its the change in style and the way he delivers his message.

I try to not feel ofended by the work if the artists has derisive opinions on something, but I guess you sometimes connect the dots and start to see where a particular idea from a work comes from and you can't help but feel somewhat uncomfortable

but yeah I usually try to enjoy the work for what it is.

>>83826256
>invading
>muh secret cartoon club

>>83826271
Not surprised to hear that. Honestly I think his breakdown probably enhanced Cerebus as a whole.
Not to go too /a/, but Evangelion was so much better in the 90s than the new Rebuild stuff because the whole thing was Anno's depression spilling all over the screen in fascinating fashion and I think Cerebus was similar. A healthy Dave wouldn't have written a comic we'd still be talking about in 2016.

>>83826230
It only killed any kind of discussion that is not related to bullshit politics.

>>83826142
Has Miller ever actually said anything about feminism or did he just want to make a badass lady with a robo-arm in his movie and then everyone else screamed FEMINISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>83826230
It's fine as long as it can go beyond calling the other side of the false dichotomy retards.
As is the political discussions are way too entrenched in tribalism rather than genuine discussion and people calling each other outsiders to the /co/ tribe (ie. /pol/ or tumblr) is symptomatic of that.

And the debate also tends to hijack threads that are actually about comics and cartoons rather than how right or wrong their messages are.

>>83824035
What I hated the most was more of how it showed just how useless entitled celebrities like Shakira are who advocate all kinds of social issues they never come into contact with yet seemed to applaud them for it.

>>83826331
>A healthy Dave wouldn't have written a comic we'd still be talking about in 2016.
I'm still talking about the first 150 issues of Cerebus in 2016.

Even without the mental breakdown, Cerebus is still hugely influential to the history of comics. It's the proof-of-concept that showed the world that self-publishing, creator-ownership and writing-for-the-trade are all viable business models.

>>83826356

Well "Feminism" has become a bullshit word that means "thing I agree with" or "thing I don't agree with" depending on which side of the spectrum you're stupid enough to desperately cling to without question.

If you define it as "movie included competent intelligent female characters who want to escape from a rape dungeon" then I guess it's feminist enough.

>>83822757
Yeah.

For example, I still read Ales Kot's works, I just won't spend any money on them once I discovered what a shitty person he is.

>>83826356
He's talked a lot about feminism and brought the creator of The Vagina Monologues on set to consult. He's "openly" feminist.

>>83826003
I don't care whether a creator agrees with my political views or not. I've loved stories since I was child and had my favorite cartoons and books. If I follow a creator, it's for the content they put out. But if their politics bleed into their stories or art in such a way that it disrupts the narrative, then obviously I'm going at least to roll my eyes.

With liberals, it's usually worse. Because modern liberalism is about tilting at windmills, and walking on eggshells all the time in order to avoid doing anything "offensive" or "insensitive". When that translates to storytelling or art, it means the creator is going to spend more time mulling over what tropes to avoid so they won't get called a bigot while at the same time having a "Diversity" quota to fill. So he or she has this big list full of restrictions on one side and another list full of guidelines on the other. And, worst of all, a liberal creator is not even going to wrest these restrictions, but accept them with gusto.

So the result is this inoffensive, toothless, meek product that is 90% propaganda, 10% actual art/story. This mirror for the people in the creator's hugbox of choice to continue admiring themselves like Narcissus at his lake.

A more incendiary author - like even a nazi - will instead opt for going all out. Sure, the work might most likely suck and be covered in chips freshly shaken off that creator's shoulder, but at least it can be judged in a more rounded way and for what it shows, not for what it held back.

>>83826099
>>83826289

When you read Miller's post-9/11 stuff you say, "Goddamn this is really extreme but those were extreme times and on some level a lot of people felt this way...."

When you read Sim's post-whatever the fuck happened to him stuff you say, "Holy fuck dude get help."

>>83826331
Except that his comic created the blueprint for all small press publishing companies and proved that they could thrive in a direct market? Come on man.

>>83826443
He brought her as a consultant because she actually has experience dealing with victims of human trafficking.
I'm not saying he's not feminist but it's not like he consulted bechdel on how to write dialogue.

I love Steven Universe.
No matter how gay or misandric Rebecca Sugar makes it.

>>83824891
>>83826047
A message can be moderate and still come from an ivory-tower liberal, which is what pretty much all Hollywood writesr are.

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>>83826468
>liberals
>modern liberalism
> "offensive"
>"insensitive"
>"Diversity" quota
> inoffensive, toothless, meek product that is 90% propaganda
>hugbox

>>83822757
I don't let other people bullshit get in the way of my happiness: I've got enough of my own.

>>83826518
>conservatism has been under attack for decades now

Explain how using specifics

>>83826142
>even though he's all into feminism now.

I say this completely without irony - there is literally nothing wrong with being a feminist. There is no shame in thinking that women deserve to be treated as equal and should get fair representation and acknowledgement. Feminism as a whole is not a dirty word, but people who claim to be feminists dragged the word through the mud and tainted it. There is nothing inherently aggressive or mean-spirited about being a feminist, but a large amount of people who claim to be feminist sure as hell are angry and spiteful.

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>>83826526
>I also prefer
>memeing it up
>over retorting
>with actual arguments

>>83826569

Calm, collected, moderate, rational thinking? Get ready for the (yous)s anon. /pol/ and /tv/ are already here in full force.

>>83826569
The problem is never usually the "-ism", but its "-ists".

>>83826592

Pointing out how your argument is nothing but meaningless buzzwords isn't meming it up

It's probably my own bias, but I personally can't really think of anything that has good quality but doesn't agree with me politically/socially/etc.

As in, usually anything that disagrees with me is always low quality, while stuff that agrees with me varies from good to bad.

I'd like to think as an objectively minded person that the people I disagree with put message over quality, but it's possible I chose the message that had the best quality to be true.

So I don't know. Stuff like CAD, Dobson, squirrel girl, and Whor is shit quality by shit people, but SU and Zootopia are good quality works with a message that's right of those previous crazies, but is still generally left of center.

>>83826468
Man when that shit goes bad, it goes bad regardless of side look at Holy Terror
I agree liberals do it more often because they think it's okay to inject that crap into the narrative, like it's some kind of noble cause.

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>>83825620
That's awful.

>>83826569
Except that's not feminism that you're describing desu senpai. Feminism is nothing more than female superiority doctrine.

>>83826623
>Get triggered by word
>"N-nice b-b-buzzword, shitlord!"

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>>83826623
And just throwing "buzzword" which is a buzzword in and of itself at somebody isn't retorting. If you think I'm wrong, then point it out like an actually thinking creature or shut the hell up.

>>83826468
This hit the nail on the head.

>>83824035
>I didn't care for Zootopia at all because it was nothing but a big political message from a bunch of ivory tower liberals in Hollywood,

"R-types are more dangerous than K-types" is hardly a liberal message.

>>83826684
>Ideology doesn't have tenants
>this shit happens all the fucking time
Both are feminsm, because you can literally just say anything vaguely related to women and call it feminism, and since the ideology has no tenants, it's always right.

>>83826468

This.

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>>83826684
>Feminism is nothing more than female superiority doctrine.

source?

>>83826684
You're confusing the SJW, anti-sex mockery of feminism they call "third-wave" with all feminism.

This thread reminded me of all the hate WALL-E got from both sides of the political spectrum: conservatives hated the environmental message and thought it was preachy and political, and liberals hated the fat-shaming. Regardless, the movie was still massively loved.

I think it's fairly easy to put aside the politics in a work as long as it's enjoyable as a whole. WALL-E was still visually beautiful and had a touching story that I think appealed to most people regardless of what offended them about it.

>>83826798
Or maybe the vocal few are a minority that compensates by screaming the loudest.

>>83826793
"third wave" is the current wave and as such is the most overwhelmingly common form of it today.

>>83826635
Sometimes (especially these days with social media) it's hard to see the creator's actual message for the suffocating fandom interpretations that meme their way into everyone's conciousness. I feel like SU definitely suffers from this, as does pretty much anything tumblr takes a liking to. Suddenly everything they like has hidden meaning that coincidentally backs up their beliefs.

It's not that different with Sim & Cerebus - The industry, media and consumers of that media (seriously, I remember an article where he was caricatured as a literal concentration camp guard for his views - This is the guy who wrote Judenhass) have decided that because he became an anti-feminist that now taints all his work, and "In retrospect it's so obvious he always hated women so everything he ever did is therefore misogynist". This is how group-think controls the narrative.

>>83824088
Wow. What a fucking asshole. If he actually cared about equality or whatever, I feel like an appropriate response would be something along the lines of, "I feel as though women are underrepresented and really want to focus on writing stories centered around them."

>>83826876
The dying mockery they call "Europe" now doesn't discredit all European accomplishments or mean that all Europeans are suicidal.

>>83826780
>muh dictionary definition

If the definition of the concept that members of a group determine the meaning of that group was "jump off a cliff", would you do it?

the real question is do you guys still watch the Cosby show

>>83826917
If that was the case, we could objectively say that group was bad, or at least suicidal.

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Don't pretend that feminists/SJWs are the only ones that get triggered by characters/messages in a work disagreeing with their points of view. As a writer, I feel like I now have to walk on eggshells if I so much as want to include a woman or a racial minority in a story, because I know that would trigger the /pol/ types and I will get called out on being a pandering SJW. I used to not even think about the race/gender of characters in my stories, but now I am forced to think about it really hard because it will be seen as me pushing some kind of agenda.

>>83826907
Yep, it's all about lording how better you are over them, it's a fucking children's show for fuck's sake.

>>83822757

Yes, because writers (mostly liberal) always inject their politics at their works. Nothing more displeasing to see what was a possible cool story become the author shouting from his cardbox.

>>83826954
I've started mostly writing robots and aliens because of this, and I fucking hate sci-fi for the most part.

>>83824088
>It's just like, Jesus Christ, Matt, you work on fucking Steven Universe, get the stick out of your ass, enjoy life, you are fortunate than most people in your own industry right now.

It's the John Scalzi effect - people who've made it to the top and realize they're privileged start declaring their entire vast identity group - males, WASPs, white people, ect - as privileged, and insist on using their power to keep other people from their group down and promote people from other groups.

Somehow, while they're willing to tell other people to step aside and wait in line because of their imagined privilege, they're never willing to give up their own positions with actual privilege.

Honestly, the idea of having so.e tumblr faggot or conservators/religious nut fuck with me for reading it bothers me more than what the person did most of the time.

>>83826954
All of the PC bullshit is gonna blow over in the next 2 years or so, so just do what you want to do. Quality writing is quality writing at the end of the day, so let is speak of itself.

Anyone can notice when a story is pandering and as long as that is not your intention than your fine.

>>83826954
> As a writer

Nobody cares about fanfics.

>>83826954
Or y'know, you could stop caring so much what insignificant extremist minorities on the internet think of your work, and just create what you want to create.

>>83826998
You realize you can have unpublished original stories right?
>inb4 hurr durr dere is no originlity nemurr

>>83826798
Most liberals don't give a shit about fat shaming, in my experience.

>>83827038
Hell, most fat people don't give a shit about fat shaming.

>>83827026

> 'original' stories

Sure you do anon. Post link then.

>>83827016
To be fair these things do have sway with publishing companies and executives. And may change the way editors look at your work

>>83826998
>Any written medium mentioned on the internet is default fanfiction.

Sure let's go with that. Why not?

>>83826907
That is basically what he's saying though, just more bluntly.

>>83827068
Your problem figuring out this formatting kid
http://pastebin.com/bgB1J5uz

>>83827079
Surely it's best to wait and hear that from them, rather than basing your stories on what you think /pol/ and tumblr will say about them?

The industry wants to make money. At the moment, pushing certain agendas does that because the people who believe in those agendas read the books and the people who don't read them to get angry at them see: /co/. But outside of the big two I don't think you'd find editors chastising you for not pandering hard enough to one side.

>>83827160
>>83827160
I agree, but who's to say that anon hasn't experienced shit from their publishers

>>83827130
Not really. When he's basically telling people to fuck off and watch something else, using specific phrases like "straight males," he's only serving to further the "us versus them" attitude. That's a shitty attitude and if he actually cared, he wouldn't be using language like that.

>>83826954
Fuck off. You do you and don't be such a faggot about it.

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>>83822757
Yes.

I still like Megadeth even though Dave Mustaine is a borderline racist homophobe, I still like Bogleech.com and it's articles even though Johnathan is a SJW and I still like John K's art and unique animation style even though he's an all around psycho.

As long as their views don't bleed into their work I can fully enjoy them and express my love for them even though the creators aren't exactly perfect.

>>83827130
Nope, he's singling out demographics and telling people to fuck off rather than explaining why he believes he's right. A blunt version of that is
>Look we don't want to make men, this show is about women. There are many male centric shows you can watch.

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I've just learned to accept that I'm not going to agree with the opinions and politics of like 90% of the writers and creators who I follow. Disappoints me less now when I have to wade through their shit on Twitter, I guess.

>>83826947
I'll take 'missing the point' for 200, Alex.

>>83826954
Hit their blindspots. When SJWs and /pol/tards talk about, for example, "PoCs"/"dindus", they most usually mean black people, Muslims, sometimes Latinos, almost never Native Americans. What you can do is bring up non-white people that they, in their narrow, ethnocentric scope, overlook all the time.

Bring up Basques, Tuaregs, Greenlanders, Rapa Nui, Chuvashs, S'gaw Karen, Ainu. Neither SJWs nor /pol/tards will know what you're talking about.

>>83822840
>implying nazis are bad

heh

>>83826917
wut?

>>83827492
I tried combining the fact that definition of feminism (and other groups) is determined by the actions of those that are part of it; with the classic "if your friends jumped off a bridge would you" adage.

>>83824088
>reverse the roles and people would ask for him to get fired

Replace "male" with "female" and masculine with feminine. Besides, most heroes are men because it's realistic. You can't stray too far into fantasy or it will just seem retarded.

>>83826954
>I know that would trigger the /pol/ types

You're a fucking idiot

>>83827576
Like, in a silly, joking way? Is it supposed to be incoherent?

>>83826954
If you can write characters that happen to be black/gay/whatever rather than characters whose main character trait is being black/gay/whatever, then nobody worth interacting with will care.

>>83827664
Not really, but I was also on my phone at the time, so that was the best I could do.

>>83823987
Not saying anything about Dave sim one way or the other. But as just a General statement. Having spent about ten years working with the autistic and developmentally disabled as well as the last few months homeless on the street surrounded by my fair share of unmedicated fucking lunatics. A crazy asshole is still also an asshole sometimes.

>>83827584
>Besides, most heroes are men because it's realistic.
Mots men are heroes because historically, men have dominated in class roles for thousands of years and have had a huge head start advantage with creating the "warriors/heroes are mostly men" idea that's just been universally ingrained in all of us because we're used to it.

You reach a point where it goes biology vs. history. Did we create history the way it is because biologically, the average man is stronger than the average woman and our labeling of gender roles just got a little too aggressive once we formed societies? Or are gender roles super imposed and nonsensical in advanced human society?

Also, stories are fiction, so it's fine to not be realistic because it's not the same as not being believable. Amazonian Women Island is believable because we can look at places like Sparta for inspiration, but it's not realistic because how the fuck do they continue with their tribe if there are no men to get them pregnant? Shit like that.

>>83826780
the problem is that they only want equality when the natural state benefits men. If the natural state benefits women, they're not about to balance the scales.

You think they're about to give up personal control of their reproduction function just so men and women have the same reproductive rights? I didn't think so. You think they're about to extend even an ounce of the emotional accommodation and re-enforcement ("Beautiful at any size") they demand from men, TO men? I didn't think so.

>feminism is the radical belief that women are people too
Guess what? I don't have philosophical discussions with blue jays or buckets of water. Of course you're a person. Stop hiding behind a flimsy platitude.

Feminism is a culture-wide shit-test. It's the equivalent of "do I look fat?" or "am I pretty?" None of this is about making women any more or less equal than men; it's about patting them on the head and soothing their emotional anguish like you would a child that just woke up from a nightmare.

I shouldn't have to tell you all this, but actions speak louder than words. It doesn't matter what feminists say. What do they DO? What do they actually expect?

They expect to be protected like they're helpless children, but told they're big and strong and self sufficient at the same time. They expect to never be challenged, as if they're royalty.

It's princess mentality hiding behind a social justice smokescreen.

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I try as hard as possible to know nothing about the people writing stuff I like. It works out well, until they shamelessly cram their personal shit into the work. i.e. Fables.

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>>83825480

>>83827144
"COMPUTER SCREEN: @DEAN_ELMORE More like DEAN SMELLMORE!
Panel five
Close up on President Brown’s drunk face, he is terrified he actually went through with posting that
BROWN: Shit, shit shit. SHIT!"

I like it.

>>83827763
>the problem is that they only want equality when the natural state benefits men. If the natural state benefits women, they're not about to balance the scales.

source?

>>83827719
>azonian Women Island is believable because we can look at places like Sparta for inspiration, but it's not realistic because how the fuck do they continue with their tribe if there are no men to get them pregnant?

They kidnap men and use them as slaves.

>>83826978
What fucking sucks is that most people think in America, your status is based on race, gender, sexual preference, etc. Really, it's not. It's how rich you are. It's just that most oppressed groups are black or Hispanic because of historical events, but just being "straight white male" doesn't somehow give people a magically leg up in getting a job or getting a degree, no matter how much people want to think.

Most of the people in prison being black men doesn't mean they're in jail for being black, most of them are in jail because they're poor and couldn't afford to get themselves out or lawyer up.

Sure, there's still hate crimes, it's still hard to convince a studio to make a show with an all-girl cast because "they don't want a girl's show", but in the actual long run, how wealthy you are is way more important than if you're black, white, Asian, or whatever. All the people I know who are successful in life have one thing in common: They were well-off financially when they were born. That's it, none of them are the same race, gender, whatever.

I'm not saying racial bias DOESN'T exist, but somehow this belief of "wow, being straight white male is easy mode!" is fucking retarded. I'm all of that shit and still struggled to get a job for years after high school because I didn't go to college and had no experience to qualify for entry level jobs. It wasn't until my friend quit his job and I took his place when he moved was I able to start putting shit on my resume.

>>83827955
>Hey Overlord who has been systematically trying to kill us in fairyland world, do you know about Israel?
>Well, they're tough as shit and I'm Bigby the tough cool guy so clearly that's the right opinion
>Just to reiterate, Israel is awesome and we're going to kick your ass

I still enjoyed the arc but man that was weird as shit.

>>83827461
Get out you fucking degenerate

>>83828128

Same here, and I have the same political leanings as Willingham. It was just a weird place to get up on a soapbox.

>>83827955
>>83828128

Willingham really is the fucking worst. Fables could really be GOAT but he straight up ruins it with his bullshit. it just feels "off" and the when you find out what his deal is it's impossible to not see it.

As far as OP's question goes, WIllingham can believe anything he wants but he refuses to keep it out of the comic so i can't enjoy the comic

>>83828116
>this belief of "wow, being straight white male is easy mode!" is fucking retarded
Ironically, that world-view is pushed hardest by straight white males for whom life was easy mode, because they also happen to be rich.

People rarely bother to look outside of their own experience. Funny how they claim to be all about helping others and yet are still so egocentric that they write off the experiences of people who aren't like them.

>>83827763
Here's your (You).

>("Beautiful at any size") they demand from men, TO men?
>so men and women have the same reproductive rights?
literally wat

Shit if that's how they're secretly trying to give power to women, then feminism must be evil. We gotta start raping them more and paying them less just to counteract their cause.

>>83828116
I agree I struggled to get a job after high school for a long while I finale manged to get a job at some chicken houses cleaning chicken eggs
and after that I got on to a construction crew and Im making all right money now but for a while it was rough and being white didn't seem to help me

>>83828295
>>83828116
Connections and dosh is what gets you jobs. The place I'm at currently I think I got in because my cousin knew the guy who owns the place. Like I had barely any job experience and was just fresh out of college but I got called back 3 hours after I left to accept the position.

>>83828116
>because I didn't go to college
Anon, that's your problem right there. The "straight white male is easy mode" powers can only stretch so far. It has a subtle effect, but it's not a goddamn magic carpet.

>>83822757
How many great writers/artists really are terrible people? I guess a few. Most of the ones who get reputations for being terrible are actually more complicated than that. Like there are a few good artists who were Nazis, but not many.

I'm not saying there are artists who are truly terrible. But a lot of times "terrible person" is a stand-in for "person I disagree with" or "guy who was sometimes racist and sometimes not." Worse still is when we're expected to consider someone a terrible person based on things that they may not have done (see Allen, Woody).

Sometimes when I see an artist described as a terrible person it turns out, on closer inspection, that he's no worse than you or I would be in that situation.

>>83823241
this tbqh fambi

>>83828421
I also think there's not much good art that has straight-up evil politics. Usually art that is described as racist, sexist etc. will turn out, if it's any good, to be more complicated than that.

The key is "if it's any good." Lots of terrible art has straight-up terrible politics, but that's because it's propaganda. There's some good art that is straight-up propaganda, but not much. If it's good, it will probably give us the opportunity to argue over whether its values are good or bad. That's part of what makes it good.

>>83828295
>but for a while it was rough and being white didn't seem to help me

I'm from West Virginia. Some of the state is pretty okay off, but holy shit the poverty in the southernmost parts of the state is horrible. It's not a race thing. It's being left behind when economic opportunities go elsewhere and not having the education or skills or money to pack up and travel with them.

>>83828319
>If she can have a baby, why can't I? It's not fair. Isn't fairness the point? The only fair way would be to remove the choice from individuals.

You doing ok, anon? I'm sure someone somewhere is developing surgery that can help you achieve your goal of motherhood.

>>83828492
That's not my point. I don't want a uterus. My point is that you shouldn't hide behind a shallow, oversimplified buzzword like "equality" when the point ISN'T equality. Women want to keep what they have, but also have what men have. They want to have their cake and eat it too. They only want the benefits of the differences between men and women. This is not equality. It's a stacked deck.

The second I find out they are a liberal cuck I can't enjoy their works anymore.

Which is 99% of current writers.

Artists are basically immune because they just do what they're told.

>>83826500
He has literally said "How could I not be a feminist?"
I'm not saying he's some hardcore SJW, but he definitely set out to tell a story with a feminist angle.

>>83822757
I'm an extremely petty and vindictive person, take a guess.

>>83827981
Hey thanks mate

>>83828772
Sounds like the average 4chan user to me.

>>83828116
Wealth>Education>Race>Sex
In descending order this is what is most important in how society views you. Money trumps all and white/male privelege is such bullshit growing up in a poor neighborhood with people of different colors.

I can

However what changes is the priority I would give getting their work over other things I want to buy.

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>implying being a dickhead and having useful things to say (or being useful) are mutually exclusive

>>83829009

Saved.

>>83828253
I'm not sure how ironic that is. In fact it makes plenty of sense.

>>83828688

That has more to do with Certain Someones being in charge of what stories get picked up, and said Certain Someones tend to lean far left.

You'll notice a pattern among most SJWs wherein they don't actually care about justice, but are more interested in using the illusion of justice to disguise their greed.

>>83822757
I don't pay for the comics I read anyway.

>>83828710
I literally said "I'm not saying he isn't feminist", I'm just pointing out his choice of consultant was perfectly fitting for the story he told.

>>83828995
I'm not sure I entirely get this reasoning either. I don't pay for art to support good people, I pay for art to support good artists.
I understand when it's "regular" products like food or wtv, you don't want to support tangibly hurtful businews practices but its a bit different here.

>>83829074
>Jews lean far left
I swear some people are retarded.

>>83829199
The answer is I have a budget and I like A LOT OF good art.

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>>83829226
Jews lean far left for mercenary reasons, not because they believe in it. Pic related

>>83829226

They do though. Polls show that the majority of Jews in America are Democrats. Part of that is more the trend that a lot of Jews live in larger urban areas, and those swing heavily blue in general.

>>83828547
Ok, your bait hooked me one more time. You are entrenched in your beliefs and nothing I say will change that. But, that's 4chan for you. Here's your main arguments:

>Women outnumber men in universities
This is true, and is primarily related to less men applying in the first place. A quick glance as to why gave me this nice summarization from the National Review (a conservative paper) based on a couple studies:
"Boys get in more trouble than girls from elementary school onward, and the gender difference is greater among children from fatherless homes." Both of these are related to skewed perspectives on masculinity, and feminism aims to "unskew" those perspectives, so to speak, which would indeed balance the application rate.

That being said, private schools aren't regulated by Title IX for admissions, so even though their admission ratio is 60:40 favoring women, most only accept with about a 52:48 ratio. (This is per a Washington Post article I just found right now).

In other words, that makes it easier to get accepted into a private school if you're male. Feminism would like to fix this too.

So, if feminism works as intended, it will eventually lead to equal application and acceptance rates in schools. I don't understand what the alternative would be or why we would want it.

I'd like to delve into your second argument, but that first one already took me a while, sorry. But goddamn your third thing about childbirth is just... wow. I can't even. "Should every woman's uterus be government property?" So instead of abortion, you want... government-mandated births? Huh? You really gotta rethink your angles, famalam.

>>83826553
Specifics are hardly needed; look on your Facebook or really any social media site and you can see liberals saying things to the effect of "<insert liberal idea here> is a FACT, and if you disagree you can go fucking die." Hell, I'm pretty sure there was one lady who said something about "kill all meninists." It's hilarious (not really) when they toss the word "bigot" around, because the level of ignorance towards anyone else's opinions is astounding

I don't give a shit about the personal life/opinions of artists as long as the stuff they do is good.

Hell, I don't even mind politics bleeding into their works as long as it's not hamfisted and badly written.

>>83829443

Just look at what's going on right now in the wake of Orlando where there's plenty of people claiming that right-wing, Christian, straight people are incapable of being properly outraged and therefore can't even speak about the massacre. And then if we're silent they bitch about that silence too.

Yeah, big shock, when you're equivocated to a murderous terrorist people tend to disregard your arguments and cut off any sort of civil discussion that you might have had. Who could've guessed that would happen.

>>83829458
>Hell, I don't even mind politics bleeding into their works as long as it's not hamfisted and badly written.

Sometimes the worst part is when it's not blatant, but just underpinning assumptions about certain things that groups take for granted that grate against other people's worldviews. That's what I find the most infuriating, when someone just naturally assumes that everyone thinks the same way they do, or their story is predicated on a specific set of beliefs and falls apart if you look at it from a different perspective.

>>83829520
Do you have an example?

The easiest way to blunt all of this is to care more about the lines on the page than the words on it.

>>83829443
Yeah I hate SJWs too, but I hate anyone that subscribes to blindly to dogma, no matter the dogma. I prefer considering the arguments themselves, and only giving my attention to sources that are at least fairly credible.

And I guess that's a bit of what this thread is about, ain't it anon? Looking past the person and seeing the content they're disseminating?

>>83829324
>Democrats
>Far left

>>83829577

If they weren't mindlessly subscribed to a dogma they wouldn't be called SJWs.

>>83829240
Fair enough

>>83829599

Look at Bernie and Hillary's campaigns. The Dems are SUPER far left now compared to where they were just twenty years earlier.

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>>83822757
>Do you find yourself still able to enjoy work by writers/artists who are terrible people

No. I any medium.

Hitler may have made mediocre art by today's standards, but he's still Hitler, and that make's it Hitler's art.

>>83829636
Hillary is not far left by any stretch.

>>83829458
I personally agree, as long as it doesn't get preachy. Preachiness kills anything, even if I agree with the politics.

>>83829443
Treating your opinion as fact is not exclusive to liberals.

>>83829668

Hillary is "American Left." She claims to really care about the plight of the downfallen while simultaneously waging war on them for money.

>>83829636
>Hillary
>Far Left

do Americans realize how conservative their moderates are to the rest of the world

Hillary is basically a republican Warhawks that pays lip service to gays

>>83829668

Oh no she's an opportunistic vulture and will hop on whatever bandwagon will keep her funded. But she's gone a lot further left than where she was back in, say 2006 when she was a senator. A lot of that is due to Bernie's popularity and trying to crib off of the movement he's heading.

>>83829710
>do Americans realize how conservative their moderates are to the rest of the world

Yes, but this is fucking America, of course our political parties and platforms are going to be unique compared to the rest of the world. I don't give a fuck.

>>83828492
Not that anon but it is kind of worrying how many self professed feminists lobby against male birth control.

>>83829636
They're not even at the left of the center, economically.

>>83829737

As terrible as Hillary is she's practically a juggernaut compared to failures like Merkel.

I also think everyone in this thread complains more about SJW(a term whom I stop taking seriously anyone who utters it seriously at this point) than is actually in the books at large.

People talking about this stuff largely sound childish and foolish.

Maybe it is because I don't read most mainstream comics and this stuff isn't in small press stuff because they don't need to annoy/shock their fans.

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>>83822757
I know the person who makes the music for Steven Universe said some thing along the lines of "gross white boys" on Twitter. I still like her music but idk how she kept a job after that. I know if she replaced "white" with "black" her ass would be so far out of CN.
Then again it took CN awhile to get the creator of Clearance out of the job after he sexually assaulted that Adventure Time story boarder so maybe they just really want to avoid losing people.

I also know KC Green is on that "ew straight white men uwu" train but I'm glad he keeps it out of his work, he's a funny guy with real talent.

>>83829780

You must have your head in the sand pretty deep to not notice the shit they try to pull nowadays.

>black spiderman
>female thor
>terrifying squirrel girl
>potshots at their internet rivals
>potshots at republican/conservative ideas

>>83829703
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong. I'm dead in the middle of the spectrum; I see conservatives for what they are too. I've just tear to see any actual "agree or kill yourself " types on their side

>>83829373
>Both of these are related to skewed perspectives on masculinity, and feminism aims to "unskew" those perspectives, so to speak, which would indeed balance the application rate.
That kinda sounds like a hypothesis on your part. I could just as easily theorize and have evidence backing it up that the reason boys get in more trouble than girls from elementary school onward is because with the influx and vast majority of school teachers being female, the structure of classrooms is structured and inherently biased in their favor. What you view as " a skewed perspective on masculinity" is just a means of ignoring the fact that as has been proven in many studies, boys and girls do tend to learn differently, and rather than train teachers to deal with those differences, you see them instead blaming, punishing, and most worryingly medicating male students that don't get with the program.

>>83829862
Don't you see the common connection of all those things?

I don't read Marvel & DC comics

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>>83829862
>potshots at republican/conservative ideas

This happens so frequently in any kind of entertainment medium nowadays I just kind of tune it out.

>>83829888

Not that DC is any better with how they've butchered Harley and company, but Marvel is way more aggressive with their faggotry.

>>83829292
>George Soros
>Far left

>>83829636
>Bernie Sanders
>Far left

>Hillary Clinton
>Left at all
/pol/ was a mistake

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>>83829939
>self-proclaimed socialist
>not far left

>>83829909
Also I don't find the idea of changing the race and/or gender of fictional characters to be any problem at all.

New characters don't sell in this market and the fact that most of this stuff was created in the 40s and 60s makes it all white.

>>83829831
I am going to give you a hint.

When someone says "gross white boys" they are not specifically insulting you, until you get mad at their comment and place yourself right in that.

Why get upset at a general comment unless you actually do fit the description being described.

>>83829780
>and this stuff isn't in small press stuff
U avin a giggle mate? Small press stuff is were a lot of the more extreme politics on either side starts. When I think of comics that care post about social politics the image that comes to mind is still very much of an underground black and white indie book, not a big two ape series. The mainstream tends to be more centrist so as not to lose too many sales on either side.

>>83829862
A lot of those are noticeable in other media too but the internet rival thing is so irritating.
Like how petty do you have to be to try and personify an aurgument or group of people who disagree with you on the Internet. That's Dobson tier shit

>>83829957
I can't speak to his personal positions but his policies are basically just the New Deal repackaged

His most radical idea is probably support for workers' co-ops

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>>83829939
>let's use European standards to describe an American politician

>>83829831
People think they can get away with bashing white people. Some are serious, some are just joking - my brother (who is white) says things like "fucking white people" and "exterminate white people" all the time as a joke.

>>83829957
>democratic socialism
>far left

The red scare was decades ago
How the fuck are Americans still like this

>>83829773
Merkel was doing fine up until the refugee crisis.

>>83830037
>Clinton
>democratic anything

Just because it's called the Democrat Party, doesn't mean they are. Freakin' Trump is less of an autocrat than her.

>>83830019
>le "European standards are different from American standards" meme
>Trying to artificially shrink the Overton Window to boost your own failing ideas
Fuck off

>>83826954
Motherfucking THIS.

/pol/ types and the alt right are just as bad, if not worse, than SJWs.

Gonna be so glad in 15-20 years when people look at those types as a sad reminder of the past.

>>83829987
>When someone says "nappy-headed niggers" they are not specifically insulting you, until you get mad at their comment and place yourself right in that.
>Why get upset at a general comment unless you actually do fit the description being described.

I agree, Cletus

>>83830037

Because social Marxism isn't a myth and it's still an active ideology in western society.

>>83829865
"Kill yourself" is such a weak thing to say too. It reeks of impotence.

>>83829987
I wouldn't care so much if it weren't people that are in positions where they should watch what they say about generalizing people. Like I said, if she had said the same thing but about black men she would be demonized, lose her job, and never be respected in the industry again, but I guess it's fine she says that instead. You'd think people who work in the entertainment industry would want to avoid insulting a demographic.

>>83829771
Huh I've never heard about that. I subscribe to plenty of feminist ideas or whatever, and I've been following the development of Vasalgel for years. It's pretty goddamn exciting, t.b.h. fampai.
>https://www.parsemusfoundation.org/projects/vasalgel/

>>83830091

May as well use Greek political concepts to try and categorize Sumerian kings

>>83830093
Nobody gets Offended™ without wanting it, nigga.

>>83830037
>"democratic" socialism

The problem with socialist administrations or strong-man leaders is that all you need to do is vote them in once, and then the "democratic" part magically evaporates.

>>83829987
Are you serious?
So if I say "those damn niggers" a random black person can't be offended because I didn't specify that every black person is a nigger?

>>83830155

The point is it's a double standard.

Rather than acknowledging someone using a slur is being a retard, we try to categorize how "bad" the slur is and determine which ones are worse than others. It leads to stupid bullcrap like "you can't be the victim of racism if you have power in society."

>>83830215
If you can't see the difference between

Gross White Boy

and Those Damn Niggers


Why are we even having this conversation?

>>83829373
It's not an analogy. I'm not saying I want those things. I'm saying that if the point is to make "everything accessible to everyone," then why aren't they trying to make childbirth available to men? Because, regardless of what intellectuals may write about feminism, the real world application of these principals amounts to
>"What's mine is mine, and what's yours is mine." - Women

Feminism isn't "unskewing" anything. It establishes nothing as far as positive definitions for masculinity or femininity as far as I can tell. It's an excuse to color your hair purple and be in an open relationship. They're not doing a god damn thing to change the cultural values that contribute to higher male suicides.

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>>83830243
>mentioning someone is white while insulting them is fine
>mentioning someone is black while insulting them is not

You've been indoctrinated

>>83830148
Googled it a while back for shits and giggles. Apparently the argument put forth was that if men could control when they impregnate women lose the exclusive rights to reproduction and thus power.

Having said that a lot of that noise was coming from places like Jezebel and even I can see how those are doing more harm to your movement than good.

>>83830092
You don't genuinely believe that is happening in any noticeable capacity, right?
When have extremist tardos not existed?

>>83826099
>I never understood the vitriol against Dave Sim

Because he said mean things about women while under mental duress.

>>83830123
Social Marxism is a strawman ideology.

>>83830287

The current wave of feminism just seems to be focused on making women more like men, and men into neurotic suicidal wrecks without a meaningful role in society.

I made it a point not to look at anybody's Twitter anymore. Back in the day you had to really read up on somebody to see if they're a dick or not. Now years and years and years of snarky worthless vapid posts are available to you in one click.

I'll go so far as to say I've never seen a person use Twitter who came out smelling like roses. It's something about the format that implores people to be utter cunts.

>>83830243
>how can you not tell the difference between a racist comment and a racist comment?

>>83826443
And stated that he put his wife in charge of film editing for Fury Road because "if a guy did it, it would look like every other action film."

>>83829881
Eh, I'm not saying my argument was all that great or anything, but at least I did some Googling before I wrote it out. I'd be legitimately interested to see how a classroom could be biased against male development. All I've heard is somewhat anecdotally that boys develop math/logic skills earlier and girls develop language skills earlier (eventually ending at the same place), and so they tend to develop a distaste for whichever subject started getting ahead of their development rate. Though I'm still not sure how that would affect college application rates.

In any case, I'd imagine, once again, that feminism as a movement would have an interest in weighted education dependent on those biological differences, which would eventually lead to equalized college application rates, etc.

>>83830287
It might be, (anything's possible) but you wouldn't know because it gets drowned out by the idiots. I haven't seen any evidence of it myself so I don't prescribe, personally.

I just can't wrap my head around how many people claim to be feminists and then use male virginity and a pejorative so I wash my hands of the whole thing.

>>83830243
Why don't you educate me you gross namefag?

>>83830347
reverse racism is not a real thing, as much as you desperately want it to be.

>>83830217
More accurately "if people of the same race as you have power in society"

>>83830307
>feminists are only against it because it gets rid of one of their privileges

>>83829831
>"gross white boys"

Is it weird that the word "gross" is what bothers me the most about this?

When I see grown-ass adults describing something they don't like as "gross", I cringe.

>>83830385

What you mean the tendency for people to paint groups that are different from them in broad strokes and stereotype ones they don't agree with in negative assumptions? I think that's alive and well here on earth.

>>83830381
Gross is a word that does not have a huge history as a slur

Nigger on the other hand does.

To try and ignore the history is dumb.

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>>83830385
Of course reverse racism doesn't exist, only racism does.

That being said, both are racist comments and are usually from the mouths of hypocritical people who will gladly shit on one or multiple races but will stop everything once another race is so much as being talked about negatively.

>>83826708
Absolutely Sabbage.

>>83829636
There's no point in arguing using the "left/right" dichotomy without a working definition the thread will be long dead.
Empty headed pretentious will always rush to "leftists in America are far right in Europe" which might be somewhat true in Sweden because they've gone batshit insane.
It's meme politics like most politics. A lot of opinions with little desire to understand.

That said, I can read stuff just fine without agreeing with the politics as long as it's not too heavy handed as to make it retarded.
You can try to see from another perspective without agreeing with it.
My media would be limited quite a bit if I only got it from people who share most of my opinions.

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>>83830480
I think it's time you people stop responding

>>83830307
Man that's dumb. Just people entrenching themselves in dogma again, I guess, and conflating feminism with "mistrusting men." Missing the big picture.

>>83830385

Racism does, and it's against any race you mongoloid.

>>83830346
Internet in general is like that. Due to the sheer quantity of opinions being voiced, you really have to be as "clickbaity" as possible for people to pay attention to yours.

>>83830477
>>83830489
>>83830546
Is that honestly what you guys think racism is?

>>83830385
You know I never filter people but I might make an exception for you.

>>83829831
Was it aivi & surasshu?

>>83830527
You misunderstand anon, in Europe left/right is mostly an economic thing.

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>>83822757
I mean, I still like enders game, roman polanski films, and I played fez.
Hitler had a pretty cool dog as well.
Honestly. I don't think I really care any more.
Most people have done something terrible. Eventually I guess I just stopped thinking about it.

>>83830587
at what point, if any, will black people be equal enough to white people that they can be capable of racism? Seriously. Since it's all based in power, you're admitting that it changes based on the situation. Can you not imagine a situation in which a group of black people have power over a white person, and abuse that power because of their skin color differences?

Are they any limitations to this "black people can't be racist" bullshit, or is it just a convenient way to deny racist shit that you enable?

It's not racism if someone deserves it? Is that your point? White people "deserve" to be chided, so it's not racist to single them out?

>>83830376
Okay this is 100% anecdotal but back in 2012 I worked as a substitute teacher*. One day I got called into an elementary school to be one of those classroom assistants for a kindergarten level class. There was one boy, couldn't have been more than five, six years old, who got a little too loud during story time. The teacher and the other assistants - all female - mentioned to me that he was a real problem and disruptive and their way of dealing with him was to kick him out of the classroom entirely. So they were about to kick him out, which of course made him act even worse because he really broken up about getting into trouble again and he couldn't work out what he was doing wrong.

Now me, I remember what it was like to be that age and loud generally just a hyper little kid. I took the kid aside since I was just an assistant and had nothing else to do, and got down on his level and talked to him and got him to calm down and apologize for disrupting story time and he was chill for the rest of the day. And these ladies, who suppoedly do this stuff day in and day out, were fucking AMAZED, like I had some kind of mind control powers over the kid or something. During recess even the principal of the school (another woman) came over to me and was like "Nobody's ever been able to reach that kid before. How did you do it?" and for the life of me I couldn't figure out what the big deal was.

That shit REALLY scares me because that kid? Best case scenario he's going to be doped up to his eyeballs one day they don't know how to deal with a hyper little boy. It scares me to think that might have been me.

*Bonus round. A couple weeks later the system sends me to a middle school. School security requires subs to wear name tags. There are three female subs ahead of me in line to get the name tag, and one tag left in the book. Pop quiz; who do you think the secretatry gave the tag to?

>>83830587
It's literally what it is: racial discrimination.

>>83829987
>Gross black boys
>Gross white boys

There was a student at a college in Colorado who said he wouldn't date black women because they're not attractive, on Yik Yak this past year. They found out who he was and he got expelled for that.

>>83830376
The problem is that while good in theory, in practice their efforts seem geared towards getting women into STEM and boys can go hang or get a prescription for Ritalin.

>>83830722
All I am saying is that racism is a systemic thing that snakes throughout all forms of daily life.

It isn't narrow and that is the problem with it. That also makes it incredibly hard to compare to other things because they lack the same magnitude.

>>83830309
That's the beauty of it all though. Mainstream society doesn't give a FUCK about what some white extremist on the internet thinks.

At least not right now. I'm afraid of this kind of thing bleeding out into the mainstream and we have a resurgence of white power movements.

And it's absolutely scary what these sorts believe too.

>>83830829
How does that mean one can't be racist towards whites?

>>83823787
How was that bait? Cosby never actually denied that he raped those women, he just refused to talk about it and threatened legal action on the women who might go public with it.

>>83830829
>All I am saying is that racism is a systemic thing that snakes throughout all forms of daily life.
and that it's impossible for it to negatively affect white people. Right? It's only "pointed one way."

>>83830870
So only white extremists are to be dismissed, all other extremists are a-okay?
I know that's a strawman but you singling them out is a bit weird.

>>83830870
>I'm afraid of this kind of thing bleeding out into the mainstream
>he doesn't know
Not to derail the thread, but what's happening on the internet and even in a community like 4chan is a reflection of exactly what's happening out in the real world - Nonsensical liberals who reject reality because it doesn't fit with their agenda being in power is producing a reactionary swing to the far right. This is very much apparent in Europe.

>>83830938
I never even remotely specified as such.

I was talking about the alt right movement, which is predominantly composed of white right wingers.

No extremism of any sort is okay. Thing is, other racial extremists don't have the sort of power white extremists do and it's generally white power supremacists who go around shooting people anyway.

Actually in general, it's rightists who seem to err so much on the violent side.

>>83830876
>>83830880
Yes but it doesn't mean that racism doesn't affect white people it just isn't a different thing.

Lets go back in time

If racism didn't exist and black people had all the same opportunities as white people for all of history, then we come to now and people wouldn't be trying to add diversity desperately because systems were not in place to prevent that so everyone would be on the same foot.

However thanks to racism people now being put ahead of white people for 'diversity' reasons makes it unbalanced

So the blame is misplaced.

It actually isn't the black people who are now marginally benefiting from it whom you should be mad at it is the same old white people who started all this and unbalanced the system.
Did that make any sense at all?

>>83825480
I've been reading the thread and honestly it's the most level-headed discussion I've seen on this website in months. Not sure why you chose to make that comment now.

>>83830347
It is a level of extremity there though mate.
Instead of those damn niggers, you should have said something like, those uppity blacks.

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>>83831015
>and it's generally white power supremacists who go around shooting people anyway.

>Actually in general, it's rightists who seem to err so much on the violent side.

Go take a look at the violent crime and gun-related homicide statistics then come back and try to claim that again.

>>83831015
What?
Educate yourself man, Muslim Arab extremists are much more deadly, and there have been plenty of violence committed by leftists.
In fact leftists hold historical records when it comes to killing a bunch of people.
t. Leftist

>>83831051
>now
Except I made that comment four hours ago near the beginning of the thread when it started getting derailed by faggots. I was mad because it started well and was bringing up some interesting points. But you're right, it recovered surprisingly well.

>>83830992
No, reality won't ever return to early 20th century values. Get over it. :^)

>>83831106
>racial supremacists of any kind
>misogynists
>homophobes
>transphobes
Yeah, I'm pretty sure if you actually look at the ideologies of violent crime and mass murderers, they're generally on the far right.

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>>83828116
People have repeatedly observed that the average SJW comes from a wealthy, upperclass family - in some famous cases, like Jon McIntosh, Brianna Wu, Alex Lifschitz, or that hunger striker from Mizzou, from outright filthy rich families - and yet they never ever talk about class issues. In fact, they outright get offended and call you racist and sexist if you dare suggest that wealth is an important factor of privilege.


It's almost like they're deliberately trying to keep poor people down.

>>83831026
You're the one who brought up the stupid reverse racism concept.

I'm not mad at anyone, just correcting your faulty logic.

>>83831026
The problem with this idea is that it completely ignores personal bias, and instead of differentiating from what everyone else means when they say "racism" the proponents of the theory insist that THEIR take on racism (which would more properly be called societal bias or social prejudice or institutional racism) is the only racism and things like black power movements hijacking memorial services to rant about how its the white man's fault are just seen as okay, they're just frustrated, it is our fault, they don't know any better.

Not holding people up to the same standard of behavior because of the color of their skin is a dangerous precedent, one that people so desperate to apologize for cultural sins they don't entirely understand are ignoring.

>>83822757
I can still enjoy there work. I really like Steven Universe, even though it's made by a Psycho homicidal rapist

>>83831114
>Educate yourself man, Muslim Arab extremists are much more deadly
Sure.
>and there have been plenty of violence committed by leftists.
In modern, recent times? And do those outnumber the number of atrocities committed by right-wing extremists?

>>83830992
Nigga the far right being "back" in Europe dates back to the 90s at least, it barely ever went away.

>>83831180
I read some real interesting stuff from former Occupy leaders about how the movement got very conveniently hijacked by identity politics zealots just as they really started to gain some national traction.

>>83831187
I agree with all this and honestly don't think there would be a backlash at all if it was "gross boys" or "gross black boys" as compared to "gross white boys" going back to where all this began.

>>83831187
I jumped the gun on that because that is the beginning of people who claim it is a thing that exists usually start at.

>>83831169
Know your own team.

The far left isn't violent in this country right now, but is ENTIRELY capable of violence on a massive scale. You need to avoid that happening because when the left goes bad holy shit does it go bad, and saying "oh they horseshoed back around to the right wing" does not absolve you of letting your team go off the rails.

>>83831242
You're right.

When a person hates another person because of the color of their skin its pain old racism, no reverse needed.

>>83831180
That's really a big issue in American politics imo, class/wealth issues being always skewed towards racial and gender issues.

>>83831180
>Jon McIntosh

I remember thinking it ironic when he complained about the Oscars being about "rich white people" when he himself is a rich white man.

>>83831270
>The far left isn't violent in this country right now, but is ENTIRELY capable of violence on a massive scale.
And right-wingers are not?

>You need to avoid that happening because when the left goes bad holy shit does it go bad, and saying "oh they horseshoed back around to the right wing" does not absolve you of letting your team go off the rails.

>Nazism and the Holocaust in general
>Islamic terrorism
>racial violence in the United States and elsewhere in the world
>the recent shooting at Pulse in Orlando
>Dylan Roof
>Eliot Rogers

Come the fuck on. Don't pretend like left-wingers are somehow worse than right-wingers when they go full extremist. In fact, I'd wager that right-wingers are still worse.

>>83831297
No that is just discrimination which isn't always racism like a rectangle is not always a square.

>>83831305
It is a bait and switch older than the republic. Southern aristocrats worked very, very hard to ensure poor blacks and poor whites hated each other so they wouldn't think "Wait, what if we teamed up against the planters?"

>>83831324
You'll notice those types always try to divorce themselves from such groups to gain favor with the "oppressed". See: Mediocre White Diaz.

>>83831222
I never said otherwise, but if you don't think support for far right movements has been on the rise significantly across Europe in the last couple of years then you're not paying attention. If you'd told someone in the 90s about the size of PEGIDA demonstrations or that the FPO almost won the Presidency in Austria they would never have believed you.

I'm pretty moderate myself, but I think the left has been very stupid for dismissing people's concerns, and has pushed people into the arms of the far right by not doing so.

>>83831336
>No that is just discrimination

Always the convenient fallback.

>>83831333
I never said that. I said that the left can go bad, and the left in this country has a bad, bad habit of ignoring their own sins because "We've gotta win!". Just ten years ago we agonized over the damage the neo-con "Our team can do no wrong as long as we do not admit it." attitude did to this country, why is the left now so set on emulating it?

>>83830829
>racism is systematic
Maybe you should look in dictionaries.
Systematic Racism is racism in systematic form.

Racism is holding beleif that one race is better or worse than others, hence how everyone can be racist.

You have absolutely no ground to stand on.

>>83831394
Just a side note, since you mentioned Diaz - I find David Wong to be actually offensive. He is a turbo SJW yet he is a white man who uses a blatantly Asian pseudonym. Has nobody ever called him out on how fucked up that is?

>>83831333

> Come the fuck on. Don't pretend like left-wingers are somehow worse than right-wingers when they go full extremist. In fact, I'd wager that right-wingers are still worse.

Not him, but you are very stupid. If we put the holocaust, Islamic terrorism and all mass shootings together it wouldn't be equal to the disaster of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot created.

>>83831197
>number of atrocities committed by right-wing extremists
White right wing extremist violence is extremely rare. The last "major" incident was Dylann Roof which killed 6 people. Other than that, borderline nothing.
Unless you count Muslims as "right wing" which would be correct, but obviously misleading.
Then you'd be able to get a huge number of casualties.

>>83831197
At this point this is going to turn into an argument of "that's not recent enough" with some no true Scotsman sprinkled over.
>What Pol Pot? Come on it was almost a lifetime ago, just forget about it and focus on the damage done by some fag with a rifle who might or might not have been right-wing.
Hell your reasoning that homophobic=right-wing is dumb and unsourced, there's plenty of leftist homophobes.

>>83831336
Wow talking down to me really changed my mind about how your insane redefinition of a word is right. Thanks, teacher, now I know the truth and can kill myself so I don't spread my poison genes any more!

Seriously, fuck you and the goddamn horse you came in on.

>>83831336
Bro, it's racsim.
You can make up all the bullshit you want to defend it but it's bare bones racism.

>>83831445
All sides do this, you fuckwad.

>>83831463
What about the systemic oppression of pretty much anyone who wasn't white from the 17th to the 20th century? THAT did no harm either? All those lives lost, all those people barely considered people because of racist attitudes? Fucking please.

>>83831242
You don't think there would have been any backlash to "gross black boys"?
Are you being honest here?

>>83831333
>Elliot Rodgers
>right wing
Yeah, the guy whose complaint about the world is not being able to fuck sluts, some real conservative values there.
If you were to assign him any political alignment it would be left, because that's what his family is.

>>83831523
YES.

WE'RE AGREEING.

YOU IMPLIED THE LEFT DOESN'T DO THAT AND I SAID 'WATCH OUT, WE'RE GETTING THERE." HOLY SHIT.

>>83822757
It really depends. I mean I still like Mel Gibson movies. But there are some artists that were such pricks in person it inevitably tainted their work whenever I viewed it. It didn't mean their work suddenly became shit. More that I stopped enjoying it because of the association.

>>83831336
Racial discrimination is what racism is.

>>83831467
>White right wing extremist violence is extremely rare.
Extremist violence of any type is extremely rare but white wring wing extremist violence is less rare.

>>83831502
>Hell your reasoning that homophobic=right-wing is dumb and unsourced, there's plenty of leftist homophobes.
But homophobia by and large is a right-wing philosophy. The left has always been more supporting of gays.

>>83831553
Except Elliot Rogers hated blacks and thought white people were superior.

>>83831565
MY STANCE WAS NEVER THAT THE LEFT WASN'T GUILTY OF ANYTHING, BUT THAT THE RIGHT WAS ALTOGETHER WORSE, WHICH IT IS. Holy fuck.

Pro tip: If there is a writer/artist/entertainer you like, never look at their Twitter page, because they are bound to say some shit that will sully their image for you.

Twitter is shit.

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>>83831242
>there would be no backlash if it was "gross black boys"

I've come to the conclusion you either do not live in America or you just have never caught up with the outside world in the past 50 years.

>>83831523
>What about the systemic oppression of pretty much anyone who wasn't white from the 17th to the 20th century?

You mean the systemic 'oppression' who hasn't 1% of what happened in Africa? Please.

>>83831333
You don't know shit about Islam if you think they fall nicely into "right-wing" just because they discriminate.
Racism, once again, isn't exclusive to right-wing.

Oh why the fuck do I bother, Americans don't understand shit about the political spectrum.

>>83831242
>don't think there would be a backlash at all if it was "gross black boys"

We live in a world where a man got personally insulted and tons of degrading think pieces written about him solely because he said he didn't want to see the new Ghostbusters movie in a calm manner (without even mentioning the fact that it starred women). Do you honestly think that somebody's career and personal life would still be intact after insulting black people in public?

>>83831615
That's how I felt about Alex Hierch once I followed him. I mean, I'm for gun control and all, everytime he posts now it's "fuck conservatives fuck guns you're all idiots I don't want your opinions" while his past coworkers just post art and all.

>>83831620
Look how fucking often people say nigger on this website. You think people use 4chan as proof of widespread online racism or some shit? People don't give a shit until someone gives a shit, then they need to look like they gave a shit the whole time. That's basically how PR works. Sans the peopel doing the backlash, most people don't give a shit a lot of the time

>>83831428
>Who is Jorg Harder?

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>>83831615
If I have to hear Lueren "The Duke" Zuke say "holy shit I'm so gay" a thousand more times

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>>83831716
You think that's bad? This guy is the writer for what was literally THE most popular podcast available on iTunes for over a year and went on to write a bestselling novel and nobody seems to have a problem with him saying shit like this Hundreds of thousands of people follow him and his work, and he feel absolutely no hesitation towards saying this on a public website.

Okay you all got me no outrage is not possible on the internet, but I don't think it would be any more outrage.

>>83831620
You are correct, peaceful jovial Canadian here.

>>83831824
Why are straight white guys so willing to throw their own race, gender, and sex pref under the bus? Honestly, is it peer pressure? Do they think they NEED to be part of these SJW groups or something? Or are they just uneducated and listen to the loudest people?

>>83831869
White guilt.

>>83831580
Homophobia is not a philosophy and no. Just look how gays have been treated in historically leftist countries.
Being a bigoted asshole knows no boundaries.

>>83831824
Welcome to progressivism.

>>83831685
To be fair his stance is fucking ridiculous and that video is bad.

>>83831461

He does it because at a glance you don't think "white guy" with that name. It's blatant manipulation.

>>83831950
How so?

>>83831840
>you will not receive critisism for bashing blacks in Canada

And here I thought you guys were progresive