Captain America, because you killed a dozen people while stopping

>>82826262

I'm sorry

>>82826262
The accords were stupid, and a poorly written plot device.

They should have found another reason to split the avengers into two sides. But, then they couldn't blow up the UN building and gotten Black Panther involved.

>>82826262
>Let me show a chart about how 73 people died during an alien invasion, which means slightly more than who die of smoking per hour and is something that you and superheroes are in no way responsible for.
I refuse to believe those numbers were anything nut deaths directly caused by the Avengers. Both because we're shown stuff like Hulk knocking debris onto people, and because it's absolutely impossible the total death count was that low.

>>82826262
>While Stark was responsible for this kind of
And Wanda and Bruce.

There's also South Africa, where Wanda intentionally sent Bruce to attack a city.

Plus setting the precedent of letting a private army trample over international law just because they "know better" is insane.

>>82826262
The worst part of that is that Tony fucking Stark decides that this is reasonable enough to be a 'middle ground' between the two. I don't care if he has PTSD, that doesn't mean that he would think this is somehow reasonable enough to agree to.

>>82826696
>>82826558
How is it not a reasonable middle ground? For YEARS people were saying that if this were what the SRA was, that it would be totally reasonable and that there'd be nothing to fight over.

>>82826607

Blame Disney for the low death count

>>82826607

It was probably deaths they themselves were responsible for rather than random chitrari fire or gravity and being in Sokovia.

Although the Hulk in South Africa thing was pretty far fetched, although it could be cited as Tony busting his ass trying to contain the Hulk which is more pro accords than not.

If they switched out New York with the battle in South Africa, they would've had a point. But in the end it was simply a bad plot device really.

>>82826262
Did it fly over your head that people who forced the accords have agendas?

>>82826988
Reason for Cap not signing in the movie. Its not a bad plot device. This would most likely happen in any case.

You could fix this shit if it was explicitly a bullshit power grab.

>>82826262
The death tolls were so absurdly low.

Ross and the other pencil pushers cared more about using the avengers as assets than collateral damage

>>82826988
No, but it would have been nice if someone who was anti-accords at least pointed out that holding the avengers responsible for the people they've failed to save is ridiculous.

>>82826262
> saved billions and failed to save 260 or so
The biggest flaw of CW is that no one ever brings it up.

>>82827596

I hope someone shouts this at Zemo at some point in between punching him in the face

>>82826262
The bit I was shaking my head at most was the clip of the chitaori, literally no one in that room had anything to do with the beginning of the invasion, yea the avengers brought loki in and they were pitched against each other, but if they didnt he would have just started the invasion anyway, its kind of hilarious that the general just brushes off the fact that the officials opted to nuke the city and that somehow its the avengers who were fucking shit up

>>82828035

>"YOU'RE NOT JUST A STINKING HYPOCRITE"
>punch
>"WHO PUT EVEN MORE PEOPLE"
>punch
>"THROUGH THE SAME PAIN"
>punch
>"YOU SUFFERED"
>punch
>"BUT YOU'RE JUST BITTER"
>punch
>"THAT OUT OF THE LITERAL *BILLIONS* THEY'VE SAVED
>punch
>"YOUR FAMILY"
>punch
>"WHO ARE ROLLING IN THEIR GRAVES BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU DID IN THEIR MEMORY"
>Zemo starts to cry
>"WEREN'T AMONGST THEM."

>>82828070
>the officials opted to nuke the city and that somehow its the avengers who were fucking shit up

fucking thank you! The people who would have been a part of that stupid oversight and were already a part of an established group meant for such oversight were absolutely willing to sacrifice WAY more people and the Avengers prevented that!

>>82828035
If the fact that Stark created Ultron is public knowledge, then I think Zemo was fully justified in being pissed about what happened to his family. But I don't remember enough about AoU to remember if that ever got out, and I'm under the distinct impression it didn't.

This is honestly a complaint I have for just about everything Marvel makers - its citizens are judgmental assholes and shitty human beings. From the protesters turning on Ms. Marvel at the end of the gentrification story line, to all of the racism allegories for the X-Men that make NO SENSE in a universe with other superheroes, it feels like every story is trying to get across the same message of how the heroes are morally upstanding for protecting a world that hates and fears them, and I have yet to see a writer pull it off in a convincing way.

>>82828158
>Zemo looks them in the eyes
>"If you heroes didn't exist there wouldn't have been an alien invasion, there wouldn't have been machine man that rob me of my family."
>"If the world had none of you, would be super "heroes", I would have lived in peace with my family, the world would have kept turning and we wouldn't be huddling in fear of the next major catastrophe your existence will bring to the world."
>"What I did in their memory was open your eyes to the monsters you are to the world."
>"This world would have been a better place if you never existed"

The accords are unreasonable in this aspect on purpose, and it's hardly unrealistic. The world at large, especially the politicians and the elite who run things, are illogical and often hysterical. Any number above 0 civilians killed by the good guys means those good guys are bad.

Tony knew it was bullshit, but wanted to get ahead of it before it got worse and worse (as it did throughout the movie). Not that I'm taking his side, but, it makes his perspective a little more sensible.

It's not so simple as "fuck off, we're superheroes its not our fault". I mean, ideally it is, but the world isn't going to accept that, ie Zemo, and there's tons of people like Zemo out there that blame the Avengers. Reminder that Marvel citizens are ungrateful fuckheads.

I mean, look at when shit like this happens in real life, some random hospital in the middle of Who-gives-a-fuck-istan gets annihilated while some drone is aiming at a terrorist. The approval rating for people responsible for these kinds of things couldn't be much lower, and the reputation of the US in the global community is shit because of things like that.

Go ahead and slap some stars and red white and blue on the guy responsible for killing a bunch of kids in a hospital, it doesn't matter if it's on accident, every millenial in every college is going to call for his arrest if not his outright execution.

Dear Secretary of State Thaddeus Ross;

In your decades long hunt for the Hulk you wasted billions of tax dollars, thousands of soldiers' lives and probably caused tens of thousands of civilan casualties.

So, please, shut the fuck up!

BTW: It takes a redhead in black spandex to tame the Hulk, just sayin'.

>>82826742
When superheroes are the cause of more good things than bad then it's stupid.

Only Avengers who fucked up big time are Tony and Wanda but Wanda is lucky the Hulk didn’t do any major damage or killed anyone, Tony has blood on his hand, was gonna drop Sokovia full of people if Cap didn’t tell him it was a shit idea, and is now making the law with the accords and is in the top with Ross who is another man with blood on his hands and incompetent.

Yeah the accords are stupid in hindsight

>>82826262
>>82827804
>>82828158
Am I the only one that thinks it's weird that everyone thought Ultron's plan would wipe out that many people? I mean, the people on the chunk of land would be fucked obviously, and it might cause some damage to the surrounding countries, but come on - the meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs was 6 miles across, going 70,000 mph, and probably made up of stone and iron. That chunk of land was maybe half that size, much less dense, and going nowhere NEAR that fast.

>>82828362
>- its citizens are judgmental assholes and shitty human beings.
sounds like real life

>>82828641
It had a generator payload with it and his plan was to fire it back at 100,000 mph once it reach ideal height.

Just curious, but when the Avengers bust up a Hydra base with a basement full of alien technology research do they just not tell anybody about it and leave it open to the public?

If they gave us a better idea of whats in the Accords besides just "Paperwork" and "Red Tape"

Then perhaps a better argument could be made in their favor

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Civil war is just not the same without the Mutant Registration Act, is it /co/?

>>82828790
A real fair setting of that would have been very boring with no fighting. Realistically they would have all just signed it and moved on. Cap was willing to work with Shield when they were doing bad shit with that mindset of "better to have one hand on the wheel"
Honestly things escalated because of Bucky, remove that plot point and it wouldn't been anything big.
Without Zemo's plot Cap would have likely warm up and signed the accords and Avengers would go on missions until the government(s) did do something stupid and just fight back then.

Honestly if you really think about it, most if not all of the Avengers are shitty people and its not hard to see why people dislike them in their universe

>Tony started a whole new arms race and created a killer AI

>Steve helped a "former" terrorist/assassin

>Wanda aided a genocidal AI and caused the Hulk to chimp out in Africa

>Widow was a former assassin, and a whistleblower that shut down an entire government agency

>Banner beside the whole Hulk thing also helped create a killer AI

>>82828777
The generator payload would need to be thousands of times bigger than a modern nuke, and there is no fucking way they could accelerate that much mass up to 100,000 mph before it hit the ground (and any attempt to TRY would cause a huge amount of it to burn up/fall off before impact).

I still call bullshit.

>>82828952
Thor?

>>82828457
>"There wouldn't have been an alien invasion? Where did you do your research on the invasion, a conspiracy site? They came for a weapon that arrived on our world long before you were born. They were lead by a madman who only wanted a throne, and saw a people without the means to defend themselves, ripe for the conquering."
>"The man who's life you tried to ruin was fully willing to sacrifice himself to destroy the weapon that was the catalyst for that madman's choosing of earth before he even knew of its presence here. Would you have achieved anything near what he did? You would have been shot by one of HYDRA's men before even reaching the cube."
>"You said you lived in peace with your family, but a military base belonging to a terrorist organization existed not even 100 miles from your home. They had weapons more dangerous than any you've ever picked up, and if you think the Avengers had never gotten rid of them then they would have been content to mind their own business, to never harm your family in their experiments, you're an even bigger fool than I thought possible."
>"What you did in their memory wasn't to open the world's eyes, it was for satisfaction. You weren't the one to kill the one that killed your family. You were in mourning and you saw them being hailed as heroes. You thought, 'How dare they enjoy happiness when I've lost everything? If I should suffer, so should they!' You were no different than a playground bully, angry at seeing the child across from you do better than you at the same tasks, who responds by tormenting them and saying that it's their fault for bragging."
>"Only, you're worse. You used the memories of your loved ones to forget the hypocricy of your actions. You did something that in life they never would have approved of. They're looking down upon you now, ashamed."
>"They never would have lived to see the fighting in the city if the heroes you reviled had never existed."
>"This world would have ended long before then."

>>82828952
If you really think about it and don't care about context, all people are shitty people.

>>82828884
It didn't bother me much. It was a more contained versuon of the comic which I thought worked quitr well. AoS has potential to work that angle of the accords better than the movies. Maybe in season 4

Ross was literally guilt tripping them. He was pressuring them to sign the accords, which was made to shut up countries complaining about US-based super heroes, so he can control the Avengers.

tldr: Accords made to shut up non-US countries; Ross/some other people want to control the Avengers through guilt-tripping

>>82828457
>"If you heroes didn't exist there wouldn't have been an alien invasion
"There absolutely would have, you stupid Sokovian bastard. It happened because two aliens made a deal: one wanted to get something left on Earth by another alien, and the other wanted to fuck up the planet because his big brother beat his ass. Ultron's on us, I'll admit that, but if we didn't exist your family would've died years sooner or lived as Loki's slaves!"

PUNCH!

>>82828958
Never said Joss was a good writer
Just sharing the crazy of it.
>>82829012
To split hairs the tessarac was discovered by ghost Loki and that was after getting kick out of the house. So if Thor was kick off to the Ice Planet or wasn't a spoiled brat that would have lead to a world where Thanos would not have been made aware of the Cube at least so soon anyway.
Also we will never know what would have happen to Hydra and their shadow takeover if Cap either didn't exist or lived out his lifetime rather than get iced

>>82826262
So maybe you aren't from the US, or maybe just don't have a good understanding of politics. That's fine, children watch these movies too.

A system does not have to be broken for politicians to try and fix it. There are countless examples of bureaucratic interference, lobbying efforts, and many other kinds of governmebtal inefficiency creating unnecessary or shortsighted issues for systems that already work fine, or for problems that don't exist. Right now the United States is caught up in one of the dumbest political fights ever, about transgendered bathroom usage, something no one cared about three months ago, but is now turning into a large scale states v. Feds legal battle. That kind of bullshit can become a legislative sideshow, so superheros saving people absolutely would as well.
It doesn't have to make sense, it just has to be scary enough that a couple career politicians make it their issue for a few months and suddenly relatively minor collateral damage becomes a fuge fucking problem.

>>82829194
Thor was what made them know where the cube was in the first place. If Loki didn't fall through the portal there wouldn't have been an avengers film.

>>82829012
>>82829194

Stop, smackdowns this hard are illegal!

>>82828884
Not having the 50 State Initiative cuts out a ton of the content too. The movie basically turns a world changing event into a 12-person kerfuffle.

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Why don't the Avengers just go on strike and wait until the world begs for them back?

That is literally the best way to solve these shitty underappreciation problems. Either they really need you and will grovel to get you back on your terms, or you truly are expendable and its time to retire pleasantly.

>>82828362
Well for the racism in X-men, everyone else in the marvel universe with powers are isolated incidents were only one person is getting powers this way. With the mutants its an entire population that's growing and not all of them use their powers for good.

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So why didn't Steve sign the accord and just refuse to do something they tell him to do if he doesn't want it? If the gubmen started doing something they didn't like, they could just fly off and forget about the whole legislation.

>>82828958
>Ultron isn't stopped by the Avengers, but sees that his plan killed far fewer than intended
"Welp, time to build a whole lot more of these, since normal humans can do precisely jack shit to me."

>>82829012
>You did something that in life they never would have approved of.
Zemo's wife married a guerrilla black ops killer.
For all we know she would have wanted exactly what he did. Hell some kids would want dad to avenge them.

You anons are retarded to think they are pure in all this

>>82829200
>and their shadow takeover
Their shadow takeover involved using gunships to wipe out around 1/7 of the world's population. Even if Zemo's family was spared, who's to say they would survive the ensuing mass global panic? The fact that they lived so close to a HYDRA base means that they would have been on the front lines of the ensuing chaos

>>82829290
>>82829303
both of you are clearly not underage
I'm sorry but these films are not made for people that like to think.

>>82827804
Well, when you consider that even one death on the part of the US military in wartime is made into a tragedy, subsequently prompting a decrease in public support for the war, the saved:casualty ratio does have better perspective

We're so squeamish towards loss of life in hostile areas that it doesn't matter how many you saved. If even one dies, was it really worth it? See also the media accounting of the Black Hawk Down incident.

>>82829290
Cap would never sit around like that just because people were being mean to them.

>>82829327
Captain America was stated as the major reason Hydra went the shadow ops way, that got beat to hard during the Red Skulls reign.
Also reread my post if Cap didn't get iced and just lived the internal takeover might not have happen.

>>82829303
Probably a matter of principle

>>82829200
>and that was after getting kick out of the house

And that was also after Thor tried to defend his own life and also bring Loki in alive. Because Asgardians had been to earth before (hence why the Norse people worshipped them and Asgardians call our world Midgard) they've known about us for literal ages, and thus Loki still would have known about an easy-to-conquer planet he could access. Besides, we don't know that he went straight to earth after jumping away from Thor. It's entirely possible that Thanos shared some leads on the Infinity Stones' potential locations with him and sent him on his way, offering him an army in exchange for an Infinity Stone and transport to the place he wanted to take over.

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>>82828958
>there is no fucking way they could accelerate that much mass up to 100,000 mph before it hit the ground

>>82829387
That was what he was going to do thought until Bucky UN thing happen.

>>82829414
And if they hadn't gotten taken down during the Red Skull's reign, they would have taken over anyway and since they were allied with the Nazis, I'm pretty sure that is not a good thing.

The world would be a post-apocalyptic shitshow if it weren't for the existence of the Avengers. Zemo's actions had no moral ground.

>>82826696
>I don't care if he has PTSD, that doesn't mean that he would think this is somehow reasonable enough to agree to.
Tony is not a stable person. He seesaws between heroics motivated by guilt and a sense of obligation, and being an egotistical prick when he gets a swelled head from all the superheroing. We saw over the course of the movie a Stark who honestly thought he could live with following someone else's orders because he felt low transition to a Stark who is subtly contradicting the authority channels and mouthing off to them.

>>82829433
I feel like you are just doing metal gymnastics to avoid an awkward truth.
In avengers it's started Thanos found and saved Loki. If Loki never fell through the portal and was just jailed or even simpler Thor was never a brat we may have never seen the events unfold where the cube would be discovered by alien forces.

>>82829321

>Zemo's wife married a guerrilla black ops killer.
And you know that she knew this how?

Why is the idea that a loving family wouldn't be too keen on more good people being murdered in their name so hard for you to comprehend?

>>82829291
not him, but I understand that.

But How would someone really be able to tell that you're a mutant right off the bat if you don't say so.

You could easily lie and say that you gained your powers some other way

>>82829231
It's unfair to count Thor among the Avengers in this context because his whole story takes place regardless of anything humans do. He's just Super Alien God Hobo.

Plus he wasn't even in this dimension when Zemo's plan went off, and the plan was aimed at fucking with a bunch of humans whose only involvement in New York was saving it.

>>82829532
You have to do mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that causing even more death and destruction and also demolishing the world's best chance at fending off a future alien attack is at all justified. I'm not the one trying to defend the actions of a terrorist who went out of his way to intentionally endanger and kill people.

>>82829494
>they would have taken over anyway and since they were allied with the Nazis
In First Avenger Red Skull kills two of Hitlers men and rebels against the third reich before Cap even exists.
WW 2 happen as usual the Hydra and the Captain America part of First Avenger happen after WW 2.

>>82829422
That's such a fucking cop out
>hey Cap, this plan could potentially help tons of people and make The Avengers less feared but you could literally leave at any time and have the same consequences as you would if you had never signed in the first place
>nope nope Peggy said to stand up for what you believe in

>>82826652
It blows my mind people don't get this. They're a private military force and cap wanted no accountability. And people honestly think that in universe they should totally let him. Laws? Who cares...I like this guy.

>>82829627
That doesn't change the fact that they were an ends justifies the means group, and the ends for them was totalitarian control.

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>>82826652
It could be argued that Wandas intent was that Hulk would cause a problem around the Quinjet and not the city

Of course that's a very bloody tenuous argument, but it's there

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>>82829537
Why are you assuming they are a family like that?
There are neo Nazis, KKK, hate mongers and the like that live among us happy and positive loving to each other but would with passion enjoy seeing other people suffer and die.

We are given no narrative that would show Zemo's wife and child would be against his actions. You take that stance because it's needed to hurt Zemo's actions, to argue the ones that loved him didn't support it when for all we know they wish Zemo did more to make them suffer.

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>>82827804
Doesn't stop /co/ from bitching about MoS

>>82828362
>citizens are judemental assholes

So marvel captured how people would react in real life. Sounds like they did their job.

>>82829651
It's because they're looking at it from the viewer's angle, where we know for a fact that the Avengers are good people with good intentions (even if they fuck up HARD sometimes).

From the angle of
>holy shit two dudes have wearable flying tanks and there's a supersoldier from World War II and spies and a god and a big green rage-monster running around AND THEY CAN DO WHATEVER THEY FEEL LIKE
the accords sound a lot more reasonable.

>>82826262
Isn't his whole line of thinking something like:
>if these heroes were regulated better and with even more resources than they have now we could save the world with much fewer casualties

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>>82828884
>Not using the inhuman one

>>82826262
Ross wants to control Steve in a Tom of Finland fashion. Cap can't be doin wit dat, so here we are

>>82829569
My point was more that if Thor never came to earth events of the first Avenger film wouldn't happen.
And Zemo's plan was more aimed at the Birth of Ulrton that was a mix of mostly Tony's fault but with Thor's brothers actions as well.
>>82829599
Im not defending him at all, Im showing that if you pluck all the heroes stories like they never happen the escalation and super human arms race as it were would have never happen.
Im not even the anon that started the Zemo green text bit. It's just a good point, remove the heroes and none of the story events escalate as we see.
>>82829673
My point is they might have been beat before they took the clock and dagger approach. Hell Zola's fate was due to them losing Cap to the iceberg.

>>82829731
>There are neo Nazis, KKK, hate mongers and the like that live among us happy and positive loving to each other but would with passion enjoy seeing other people suffer and die.

You're seriously assuming that a kid would be amongst this group? A kid who was a fan of Iron-Man?

The Accords was a plot by Ross to put the Avengers under his command. While all the blame goes to the utterly unaccountable UN.

>>82826262
I'd call for regulation too if you let out a giant green killing machine run around with no real way of putting it down. If The Avengers chose so, they could do tons of damage to the world.

>>82829291
I can understand why the idea of a whole group of people getting random powers could be upsetting, but kind of like what >>82829552 said, the distinction between mutant and non-mutant superhero seems waaaaaay too arbitrary for it to make sense. Unless mutants significantly outnumbered and/or outgunned all of the other supers and therefore represented a serious shift in the status quo, then it just feels like the writers are trying too hard to make them sympathetic.

>>82829915

>if you pluck all the heroes stories like they never happen the escalation and super human arms race as it were would have never happen.

That's only if you also remove the actions of the villains they were fighting, the goals of all of whom involved the deaths of a lot of innocent people

>My point is they might have been beat before they took the clock and dagger approach.

No, they weren't, otherwise there would have been no first Captain America movie. Even if the organization would have collapsed and failed without Cap's intervention, way more people would have died and then their weapons would have made their way into the black market, and caused all sorts of mayhem including a potential arms race.

This is why the whole, "The world would be better without the heroes who cause so much destruction trying to save it" argument never works. If they hadn't intervened, the city/neighborhood/country/world they were trying to protect would either be devastated or just destroyed.

Watchmen did it better desu.

>>82829919
I had a neighbor that didn't hate Blacks till she was raped by one, she now looks at them all as monsters because of one solitary instance. She is broken and now thinks that because of that rape and how that community of blacks responded to her that they are all worthless and has no pity when they suffer.
Let's say the kid lived and saw mom and dad get killed thanks to Iron Mans actions (or inaction)
You're seriously assuming that a kid would keep defending him after losing all he loved from (his view) Iron man and the Avengers?

>>82829002
whisked his brother away who was responsible for a world- better yet American homeland invasion, presumably to avoid consequences

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>>82826262
I'm not sure if people are getting the point or missing it.
I'm going to assume the prior, but just in case yes the entire point is governments, armies and politicians in general are about skewing perspective to gain control. They don't care about fair or facts or any of those things, they care about putting the pressure on using law, numbers, authority and so on.

Cap's Avengers are all literally imprisoned in a super max facility for simply fighting back even though no one was really hurt except for Rhodey but that doesn't count since Vision was the one who paralyzed him to get technical. This sort of thing happens all the time, I'm surprised people here are surprised. A few years ago a discussion about SOPA was streamed and we all saw how power was thrown around LIVE.

It's not directly addressed but if you think about how Cap's actions dismantled SHIELD and HYDRA who have power and security well above most organizations this wasn't about Justice, this was about getting Cap, Widow, Thor and Hulk on a leash so they can point their efforts to people they don't like and away from things they don't want anyone knowing about. Just because these people aren't HYDRA doesn't mean they're clean.

>>82826262

>says the guy who created the fucking Hulk and who turns himself into an even worse Hulk who also bursts into atomic flames and spreads radiation around


What's the civilian/military death toll from the Hulk films?

>>82830049
>That's only if you also remove the actions of the villains they were fighting, the goals of all of whom involved the deaths of a lot of innocent people
Only one that has any good weight to that is Red Skull/Hydra
The rest? Not so much
>If they hadn't intervened, the city/neighborhood/country/world they were trying to protect would either be devastated or just destroyed.
the flaw is we can't prove that it any major reasoning. Either direction. The only evidence we have is things like Iron Monger, Whiplash, Killigan, Ultron can't exist without Iron man. Winter Solider and Zola's imprisonment wouldn't have happen without Captain America
Loki being exiled and finding the cube wouldn't have happen happen without Thor's banishment
Abomination wouldn't have happen without Hulk.
Hell without a successful Super Solider Serum, Abomination, Winter Solider, Tony's Parents getting killed maybe the Hulk would have never happen.

You can argue things could have turn out worse but there is nothing in the Narratives to show that clearly or even to a leave to have concern.

>>82826262

why were the death tolls so low? it makes it feel so unbelievable

>>82830293
Either Disney doesn't want to scare away soccer moms, or Ross is only talking about people directly killed by an Avenger's actions.

>>82830255
Ross isn't the Red Hulk nor help create Hulk in the MCU.

>>82828035
Zemo knew what he was and had done, he told T'Challa as much. He did what he did anyway because he wanted the Avengers to pay at any cost. It was that simple.

In his mind if he didn't do it then while he wouldn't be a hypocrite they would not properly know what they're paying for.

In fact exactly as people are envisioning now is how it would most likely go. They'd see the footage, they'd say they're not to blame for that, stick together and carry on their ways. Why would Zemo possibly want that when that sort of thinking and power is what caused his loss?

>>82826262
Is Ross played by the same guy in the first movie?

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>>82829738
Because Superman didn't even try.

>>82830284
>Only one that has any good weight to that is Red Skull/Hydra
A pseudo-Nazi cult taking over the world with reverse-eningeered Asgardian tech is some pretty fuckin' hefty weight.

>Loki being exiled and finding the cube wouldn't have happen happen without Thor's banishment
Thor was banished because Loki manipulated him into disobeying Odin.

Loki did that because Odin "adopted" him; otherwise he would've been Frost Giant #314,848,679.

So really everything ever is Odin's fault.

>>82826262

Are we sure that 73 number wasn't associated with the explosion at the start of the movie? Because 73 people dying from that explosion makes waaaaaay more sense than the Battle of New York.

I feel like this might be a meme that was born of incomplete information weeks before the movie aired, and now is just hanging around on inertia.

>>82829552
>But How would someone really be able to tell that you're a mutant right off the bat if you don't say so.

As Morrison run showed, there are more Beaks then there are Jean Grays

>>82830419
Yes.

>>82830293
>>82830331
I suspect it's just to illustrate how prepared and effective the MCU world is. Their healthcare, security and the like should be much more advanced compared to ours since the years of the Super Soldier program.

It's one of the reasons I don't get why people complain about no one dying in the movies, with the fucking shit we've seen Stark using to operate on himself and keep himself alive I can't see why any injury outside beheading would be absolutely fatal.

>>82830293
According to the brothers those numbers are by action they can confirm were directly effected by Avengers actions.
It's also because they wanted to avoid big number counts because
1. that almost never happens in the real world. it's usually high solider kill rates in battles or numbers built over a long period of time (example, lumping the deaths in the films it's about 250+ dead in as many years)
2. they didn't want to jump the numbers to high when Infinity War happens. They don't want what happen in 90s comics where near extinction events have to happen every other month because they have no other way to raise the stakes.

>>82830453
>So really everything ever is Odin's fault.
Ill get behind that.

>>82830479
>Their healthcare, security and the like should be much more advanced compared to ours since the years of the Super Soldier program.
It realy should be, but in the comics at least the "heroes" keep 99.9% of the life-changing super-tech to themselves.

If we explicitly see differently in the films, I'll roll with your theory.

>>82829651
Making laws for superheroes to follow makes sense, but the Accords as they were weren't just for accountability, it was handing over complete control to the UN. It would be like forcing EMTs to wait for the Mayor's office to give them permission before they were allowed to go rescue someone.

>>82830733
If the EMTs had so much as the power to resurrect the dead you can bet your ass they'd suddenly be given limits where they can go and who they should revive.

>>82830841
My point wasn't that there shouldn't be limits on powerful people. It was that putting bureaucracy in the way of people trying to save lives is only going to guarantee that they won't be as good at saving lives. How would New York, Sokovia, and DC ended up if they had to wait a couple hours for confirmation before they were allowed to go in? Especially New York, where the government wanted to nuke the city, and DC, where the people who needed to be stopped WERE the government.

>>82827596
It's because they're guilty. Wanda knows she saved more people by containing the blast but ideally, she would've not blown up the building and killed those others. As heroes, they always WANT to do better

I'm sorry captain, but the only way to right this wrong is for me to rape you

Pretty disturbing that everyone's completely okay with the Avengers being able to do whatever they want.

You know, if Wakandans would quit having their diplomatic visits in vulnerable locations next to huge and vulnerable windows they might stop dying from street bombs.

>>82832185
Also, it'd be hilarious if the mid-credits scene in Wakanda had the camera pan from Black Panther staring out the window to just a white unmarked van sitting outside.

>>82832028
No, it's just the logic that the Accords were using. Obviously I think most people here could agree that some lax kind of regulation would be okay. But as everyone has already pointed out, the Accords were stupid.

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>>82826262
Cap was right.
Signing the Accords was just shifting the blame, which is why Tony "My Fault" Stark was immediately all-in.

Just look at the officially sanctioned, General Ross approved, mission to apprehend Cap at the airport. Before even giving Cap a chance to surrender, the very first thing Iron Man does is destroy somebody else's helicopter (which could not possibly have outrun him anyway). Actually, if you think about that for a second, since Sam is the only person on Team Cap who can fly it would have been a lot easier to follow them and capture them all *in* the helicopter after they'd flown away from a population center.
-Sam comes out
-Sam gets triple-teamed by Iron Man, War Machine, and Vision
-helicopter engine is disabled
-Rhodey carries the chopper right to General Ross's house, drops it on the front lawn, and says "BAM! You looking for this?"

Nah, let's just destroy their civilian escape vehicle and pick a fight surrounded by a few multi-million dollar commercial aircraft.
And then, when they go after Tony's quinjet that Tony payed for himself, they destroy an air traffic control tower owned by the German government just to block the path to the quinjet instead of just disabling their own private property.

Tony had no more concern for the consequences of his actions after the Accords than he did before, he just wanted to be able to say that his actions were authorized by someone else.

>>82832877
Actually Ross only approved them 36 hours to find them and bring them in before he did.
Making that situation worse because Tony could have called Ross and got the power of an army to surround that airport.
Tony deep down was just angry that Steve(in his eyes) was willing to go as far as destroy the unity of the team for Bucky's sake.

>>82833265
Exactly.
Tony still did whatever he wanted, without involving Ross, the UN, the Highest Anti-Terrorism Effort, or anyone else. It was still "we go in by ourselves and if they don't do what we say then we KICK ASS" just like always.

>>82833510
>Highest Anti-Terrorism Effort
I love acronyms.

>>82826262
Both in New York and Sokovia they have a police force evacuate the city. While in Civil War there were going to just let the police force get attacked.

>>82829552
Hell, I'm pretty sure that happened. I remember seeing a mutie trying to convince a racist he was bitten by a radioactive elephant or something.

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>>82826262

>save billions of people
>HOLY SHIT SEVERAL DOZEN PEOPLE DIED HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY DO SUCH A HORRIBLE THING

>>82829002
Proves that the norse Gods exist and all other religions are wrong

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>>82833699

>>82833984
You know they aren't God right? They are an advance alien race.

>>82834107
Tell that to the vatican

>>82831115
That's the trade-off for preventing shit like Sokovia.

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>>82833934
Yes, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

>>82834107
What's the difference?

>>82829290
It requires a callous cruelty that most of them simply lack.

>>82829290
Because Up to this point all the world problems have been their fault.

tony did nothing wrong

>>82829443
That was what he was ordered to do by Ross if he didn't agree, he never agreed to that either. He literally left the meeting without his answer.

Steve isn't the sort to just sit down in defiance, even when he was originally forced to act as a PR clown he took off to save people, and Bucky obviously, instead of waiting until he was begged to do so to make a point of have his ego stroked. He quite frankly doesn't give a damn what authorities of the public think of him so long as he knows he's trying to do the right thing.

>>82835982

What he believes is right. Might not be what is right. At the beginning of the movie. They thought this police station was going to get attacked, but they didn't alert the police station about it.

>>82829073
Too bad your shitty show isn't canon

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>military charging other people for the collateral killing of civilians

>>82835873
Nah, only Ultron.
The Chitauri invasion was S.H.I.E.L.D's fault, specifically Howard Stark, Nick Fury, and Erik Selvig.
The Dark Elves were Jane Foster's fault.

And it's also pretty heavily implied that Ultron existed in the Mind Gem before Tony ever started tinkering with it, so even that is questionable as to whether it's the team's fault or not. And on top of that, Tony was feeling extra desperate at the time because of Wanda fucking with his head.

>>82836081
And according to Sam, they didn't have to worry about Rumlow getting away because if he saw them he'd attack them. So they could have just made themselves obvious and drawn his attention away from his initial objective.

>>82835724
The needs of the billions outweighs the needs of the hundreds, yes.

>>82836081
>but they didn't alert the police station about it.
Consequences of superhero equivalent of Black Ops, risk the chance of tipping off the target to your presence and awareness or catch them with their pants down?

Plus the incident is not necessarily the fault of Cap not informing the police of an unconfirmed suspicion, something only verified last minute anyway, it's more Cap failing to keep his focus in the mission. That fault I'll give, but his sudden Bucky PTSD was really just a plot device. It setups the reason for his obsession to protect him later, but why he would decide to listen to Crossbones ramble on the spot instead of during interrogation while secured is odd.

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General Ross:
"Do you have ANY idea where Banner and Thor are, right now? If I lost a couple of thirty megaton warheads, you can bet your ass there'd be consequences."
Tony Stark:
"Uh, excuse me...didn't YOU lose Banner first? Like before we ever met him or you? Before the Avengers even happened?"

>>82826262
>Let me show a chart about how 73 people died during an alien invasion, which means slightly more than who die of smoking per hour
not that I disagree with you in general, but this is an exceedingly stupid argument to make. This would be like saying 'yeah I killed a dude but you know thousands more die of starvation every day so I shouldn't get in trouble for it'. The existence of bad things happening elsewhere in the world in no way exonerates a person or group from the negative consequences of their own actions.

Again I'm not saying you're wrong in your conclusion, just that this particular argument is a really shitty one to make to try and prove it.

>>82828958
>there is no fucking way they could accelerate that much mass up to 100,000 mph

Because Marvel films are known for being grounded in reality regarding the laws of physics.

>>82836454
He was probably at that bar because of the consequences, and Betty hating him, so he probably said that line out of feelings of unfairness.
That and generally being a snide asshole.

There was an episode of old PPG like this

>>82836472
One man, even a murderer, is less of a threat to the whole than mass starvation is. The Avengers are far less dangerous to the general public than cigarettes or ham. And it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that the people who died during New York and Sokovia would have died anyway if the Avengers hadn't been there, the difference being that millions *more* in New York would have died, and all seven billion of us would have died from Ultron casting METEO.

>>82826262

The alien invasion and Ultron wouldn't have happened in the first place if it weren't for the Avengers. That's the point. Vision even explicitly spells it out when they're all talking about it.

>>82836553
That's actually a really good point. Huh.

>>82829641
>standing on principle is a cop out
>Captain America

Yeah, Steve has never been one to stand on principle. It's just plain out of character for him. Marvel should stop now before they ruin his character even more.

>Hi tony my name is General Ross. I am personally responsible for the creation of Abomination. I am here to tell you that you and your team are out of line

>>82836565
The Citysville one?

That whole episode was a parody of how cartoonish the series' premise is when put in a realistic scenario, wasn't it?

>>82827804
Yea. When Ross said "People are scared" The answer is they damn well should be, aliens could come flying out of the fucking sky at any minute.

>>82836665
Ultron, yes -- that would have been replaced with a horde of Hydra robots. The Alien Invasion? No. That was always the plan for Loki.

>>82836665
I forgot correlation always equals causation

>>82836810
>I am personally responsible for the creation of Abomination.
Stop parroting this nonsense. That happened when Blonsky went Rogue and and asked Sterns to Hulk him out. Ross just gave him Cap-tier strength/speed/regeneration.

>>82836862
It's exactly the same logic that places the blame of Ultron on Tony

>>82836852
His point was that people were afraid of the Avengers. It's like the Cadmus arc in JLU.

>>82836856
>>82836853
If you want to get technical, Loki's entire motivation was revenge against Thor.

>>82836514
They're known to at least pretend. If something doesn't work the way it should in real life, it's explicitly stated that there's a reason for it - vibranium, arc reactor, infinity gem, etc. In this case, it feels like the writer was just too lazy to look up basic laws of physics to figure out how much force you'd actually need to destroy the world.

p=mv, people. Not hard to remember from high school.

>>82826262
>Captain America, because you killed a dozen people while stopping the theft of a bioweapon that would have killed millions, we're very upset

Cap's team came within inches of releasing that very same biological weapon inside a heavily populated city during their fist fight. The problem with the Avengers is they're very "punch now, think later" guys. When the bad guys have an unknown, but undoubtedly very dangerous biological weapon in their hand, you don't punch them without some kind of backup plan.

Yeah, the Avengers killed dozens trying to secure that weapon, but they almost killed everyone in that town because the only plan they ever have is "go right now", followed by "fight right here", followed by "hope to god that one of you superpowered fucks save the day when one of us other fucks almost kills everyone." They desperately need someone to plan for them, tell them their plans are fucking retarded, and basically stop them from getting quite as many people dead every time they go out for dinner.

>>82836974
>Yeah, the Avengers killed dozens trying to secure that weapon, but they almost killed everyone in that town
As opposed to the battle of new york. Where the military was quite happy nuking Manhattan.
I'm sure their oversight will be just great

>>82836969
But the gizmo that levitated Sokovia was made from Vibranium.
And Vibranium "does not obey the laws of physics AT ALL" as Spidey so aptly pointed out. Not to mention all the other physics defying things we saw Cap do with his shield in previous films.

So unless you have a degree in Imaginary Physics from the University Of Wakanda, you can just fuck right off.

>>82834024
Imagine Terry Crews giving this speech in a Marvel movie production.

>>82836969
p = mv clearly does not apply in Marvel movies. If it did, there would be no science fiction element in the films at all.

You need to learn to accept that science *fiction* is an aspect of these films.

>>82837213
The entire CITY wasn't made of vibranium. It still needs to be at a certain mass and velocity to inflict that much damage. And even if the magical vibranium levitator managed to accelerate up to the required speed in time, that much stress and friction would make the city fall apart long before it hit the ground.

>>82837378
you need to learn the difference between science and SCIENCE!

>>82836974
>only plan they ever have is "go right now", followed by "fight right here"

Alternative was let the attackers mow down everyone in the building. Plus they noted before the fight happened that they weren't concerned with being seen and were likely to flee the wrong way down a crowded one-way street.

>>82826262
>>82826607
>>82826788
>>82826931
>>82827500
I haven't seen the movie.
Please tell me you're fucking with me and that the death counts aren't as low as was seen in the trailer.

Please tell me that more than 74 people died in the Battle of New York.

>>82826262
future red hulk ?

>>82837604
>were likely to flee
"If he sees us coming I don't think that'll be a problem. He kinda hates us." -Falcon

>>82837378
I'm 90% it was specifically mentioned that there was a force field to hold the city together specifically so it would do the most damage.

>>82837671
The numbers are still laughably low, BUT the footage shown is stuff like:
>Hulk smashes through a building
>Debris falls onto onlookers

So it's POSSIBLE it was just counting deaths directly caused by the Avengers.

>>82837701

They also mentioned escape routes and said the most likely one was down a one way street.

>>82837702
It was a magnetic field but yeah. Friday mentions the rock would fall apart without it.

>>82837751
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKrVegVI0Us
Is the footage in the movie the same as in the trailer (0:20 - 0:25)? That footage seems to be Chitauri attacking people, and not specifically the Avengers.

I feel like it would have been more easily explained if they had two death counts: "Total Casualties" and "Casualties (Avengers)" or something.

>>82837751
>So it's POSSIBLE it was just counting deaths directly caused by the Avengers.

How could they know? I mean in specific instances where a guy happens to be filming as the Hulk knocks debris into him, sure. But if no one was filming, how do you tell which debris was knocked loose by the Avengers?

>>82837937
In the movie, the footage they show from New York is the Hulk crashing into a building, and a piece of debris from the building flying straight toward the camera.

>>82837702
>>82837886
A magnetic field... holding together rock?

Fuck it, I don't even care anymore.

>>82837937
It's different.

New York has the Hulk scene mentioned by >>82837751

Washington DC has one of the helicarriers falling onto people.

Sokovia shows the city being lifted up and some building falling over.

>>82838024
Hmm. That's a much better implication of the source of casualties.

But I'll still call bullshit on the actual number.

>>82837671
They never actually say.
The news report about the UN bombing says something like 70 injured and 13 dead. They screw-up in Lagos kills eleven Wakandans but they don't say how many other people died nor how many were injured.
Sokovia pretty obviously would have had a lot of casualties, but they only actually show people being rescued, not people dying.
And New York was supposed to have been extremely light on casualties and the entire battle was limited to something like a seven block radius which was evacuated impossibly quickly.
>>82837751
You're referring to the Hulk/Veronica fight in AoU, right? Johannesburg wasn't even mentioned in Civil War.

>>82838133
>And New York was supposed to have been extremely light on casualties and the entire battle was limited to something like a seven block radius which was evacuated impossibly quickly.
And everybody gave BvS shit for going out of its way to bring big fights to unpopulated/abandoned areas.

>>82838038
Do you know how much Iron is in Sokovian soik?

Why weren't you here complaining 8 years ago when a paper-thin gold titanium alloy coukd stop a tank shell? Or when a man in a metal suit could survive falling from great heights when realistically, his body would be turned to slush even if the suit survives unscathed? Or the Hulk (and Captain America for that matter) violating conservation of mass? Or the fact that none of earth's air was escaping through the portal into deep space?

>>82838070
>Washington DC has one of the helicarriers falling onto people.
i'm sorry, but how the fuck is that caps fault? cap was asleep for 99% of the time that that plan was coming to fruition. unlike say, general ross, who probably got fucking hydra funding for his super soldier projects

>>82838181
>>82838133

New York was never evacuated, dunno what he's talking about. They show Cap interacting with cops on the ground and rescuing people.

>>82838236
Not to mention the fact that Pierce's plan was to use those helicarriers to murder twenty million people in one day.

>>82837751
iirc isn't there something in the comics about the Hulk never actually killing anyone. I've never read any Hulk so

>>82838283
Do you not remember what Cap told the cops?
He was pointing out buildings that still had people in them and telling the cops to get those people down and out. And the cop immediately relayed Cap's instructions to the other cops to evacuate the people out of the buildings.
>>82838354
Yeah, Amadeus Cho said some ridiculous shit about Banner's super-calculating mind making sure that no one ever died from anything he did while he was Hulk.

But if you've read old Hulk stories that's pretty much impossible to believe.

>>82838133
>They screw-up in Lagos kills eleven Wakandans but they don't say how many other people died nor how many were injured.
The little thingy in the corner of the screen says "Casualities: 26" when Lagos was on screen.

>>82838422
Now that I think about it I remember an old Daredevil story with Hulk and I'm pretty sure he killed a couple people there

>>82838133
>You're referring to the Hulk/Veronica fight in AoU, right?
No, Battle of NY.

Though it's weird they never mentioned Johannesburg, because it's probably the most damning incident to pin on them (since it was intentionally caused by a current Avenger).

>>82838422
>Do you not remember what Cap told the cops?
He was pointing out buildings that still had people in them and telling the cops to get those people down and out. And the cop immediately relayed Cap's instructions to the other cops to evacuate the people out of the buildings.

Yeah but there's nothing indicating the evacuation was finished in a ridiculously quick manner. at the end when Iron Man is carrying the nuke there are still tons of cars going across the bridge.

>>82838208
I don't know why, man. Some things just bug me more. Maybe it's because when something is supposed to be a threat then I want it to actually make sense for me to consider it threatening.

>>82838622
You're going to HATE the Infinity Gauntlet, then.

>>82838074
Especially on the Washington ones.
If Cap hadn't stopped them it might as well have been Ross' ass getting shot to shit.

>>82838558
>The little thingy in the corner of the screen says "Casualities: 26" when Lagos was on screen.
>less than the terrorist attack on Paris
Seriously?
That shit would've been on TV for 2 weeks tops and every other country would have forgotten about it then.

>>82839030
It would be if it didn't kill Wakandans.

It's like the difference between a bombing in the middle east that kills hundreds and a single murdered white woman in the US.

>>82830079
But that's the point, the kid never went through that traumatic event, and we can only assume that in the afterlife he'd have an omnicient perspective on things like we do, and thus sympathize with Zemo's loss but not condone his actions

>>82839085
True, it's Nigeria so the following week there was probably another attack where twice as many died.

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>>82839030
>That shit would've been on TV for 2 weeks tops
it's fucking africa. without the avengers, this wouldn't even be the nights lead story in the US

>>82839085
>It would be if it didn't kill Wakandans.
>killed 11 people from the African version of North Korea in terms of isolation

>>82839030
It's also the superhero factor.

That the world is reacting so severely to them is kind of a point that the Vision makes.

It's not the deaths in and of themselves that get people pissy. It's the perception that the supers are somehow responsible for it in the first place or at least not doing enough to contain and stop it.

>>82839230
That's a big deal.

>>82826262
With the increasing amounts of stories where heroes have been sued into oblivion I've started to think there should be laws in place for this kind of thing.

If a guy with super strength gets into a fight with another super because said super was robbing a bank, and they decide to be a sore loser and throws a car into a school, it's not that guy's fault.

The villain was going to hurt someone anyways, they're fucking evil.

>>82826262
The worst part about this all is that he was the head of an operation that loosed a monster and killed people.

>>82838892
In his defense the Infinity Gauntlet immediately dispenses with needing sense since it's flat out defying it.

>>82839267
We have strict rules for cops. It's insane to think we shouldn't for crimefighters with vastly more destructive power.

>>82835667
>The return of Nazis to power or Nuclear decimation of a city more progressive than some European shitheap is considered a good trade-off

kek

>>82837671

The "battle" was like 15 minutes bro, and at no point did we see the Shitauri chariots actually hit anything they aimed at. Aside from some cars and, near the end, the Hulk.

>>82830391
>because he wanted the Avengers to pay at any cost

My entire point is that his reasoning is fucking stupid. Even if he knew that Tony was responsible for creating Ultron, there's still the fact that Tony was simply experimenting on a very useful alien power source to help the world and then what was essentially a sentient computer virus came out of said power source and started wreaking havoc. It's like blaming Einstein for the people lost in Hiroshima. He needs someone to lash out at so he feels like he's avenged his family.

Now, under the more likely assumption that he didn't know Tony was responsible for creating Ultron, his reasoning is all the more stupid. "You saved the entirety of my country, maybe even the world, but since my family weren't amongst the countless saved I'm going to blame you and kill even more people while also dissolving the planet's best chance at dealing with a similar threat so I can feel like I've avenged their deaths."

He's not just a hypocrite, he's a fucking idiot.

>>82839030

Lagos is in Nigeria. Two weeks ago in that country, on May 1, Boko Haram attacked an Alau village and massacred well over 30 people. Did you even know that happened before I just told you?

>>82839321
If a police officer is arresting a criminal and said criminal pulls out a gun and murders an innocent bystander the police officer isn't at fault.

At least, not legally speaking.

>>82828362
Uh, we know the governments pushed the accords but I'm pretty sure there are a lot of civilians who love the Avengers. If they aren't a majority then I would imagine the world is at least heavily divided on the issue.

>Captain America has his own museum exhibit celebrating him as a hero
>Tony Stark is invited to make speeches at MIT (for comparison try to imagine a real life college giving a venue to a public speaker they disliked on ideological grounds)
>thay guy in Iron Man 3 with Tony's face tattooed on him
>all the Avengers-themed graffiti at the end of the Avengers
>Spider-Man and Ant-Man being Avengers fans
>"Captain America saved my life he's the greatest" girl from the Avengers
>even Zemo's son was excited to see Iron Man in his recounting of the day they died
>people cheering for Iron Man at tge Stark Expo
>thar kid who wanted Iron Man to sign his drawing in Iron Man 3

>>82839441
>Tony was simply experimenting on a very useful alien power source to help the world

The same thing he yelled at Shield about in the first avengers.

>>82838892
Pretty much this >>82839318. It's easier for me to ignore it if it isn't even trying in the first place.

If you say "This is a magic hammer, that only the worthy may wield" that's fine. If you say "Dropping this city on the planet will cause the next major extinction event" I call bullshit, because it's obviously TRYING to follow the laws of physics, it's just doing it blatantly wrong.

>>82839085

There have been many terrorist attacks that have killed people from prominent countries this year. Like the Istanbul bombing in January that killed 10 Germans. No one cared much about those either past the first few days at most, even though Turkey and Germany are by all indications much more important influential nations than Nigeria and Wakanda.

11 foreigners dying in a battle in a country that's already in the middle of a bloody civil war isn't news. Now maybe the fact that some mercs were stealing a bioweapon would, but in that case, PRAISE THE AVENGERS FOR STOPPING THEM!

>>82839441
That's why he's the villain

>>82838208
>Why weren't you here complaining 8 years ago when a paper-thin gold titanium alloy coukd stop a tank shell? Or when a man in a metal suit could survive falling from great heights when realistically, his body would be turned to slush even if the suit survives unscathed?

That alloy never survived a tank shell. If you look closely you'll see that Stark actually got hit by an anti-aircraft gun on the side of the tank. Later he freaks the hell out when a jet fires 20mm HE at him and considers it potentially life-threatening. Later still, a7.62x51mm Minigun puts 3-4mm pits in his chest armor. Later still, a Stinger missile is also considered life-threatening. So it's actually a decently realistic portrayal of titanium armor, considering it varies in thickness from 1 to 4 cm throughout the armor.

The fall was just pure luck, like the time a flight attendant survived a 30,000 foot fall WITHOUT power armor. We see when Rhodey takes a much less violent fall what it looks like without such luck. He very nearly dies and is paralyzed for life.

>>82839267
That's what pissed me off about the Civil War comic. Everybody went after the reality tv superheroes and everyone else who's responsibility wasn't to babysit every other caped volunteer.

Not one person, including the bitch who's kid was lost amongst several hundred others, went after the bad guy who nuked everything.

Unless of course there was some spin-off thing where Nitro was captured and tried, I only read the main comic up to where Captian America did the stupid and just gave in because majority vote, which was what he was opposing in the first place.

>>82839471
Yeah, but if the police officer tries to dispose of a bomb and ends up blowing people up, they'd definitely be under investigation.

>>82839509

Shield was trying to make weapons

Ironically, Tony was trying to create a shield

>>82828641
>that many people? I mean, the people on the chunk of land would be fucked obviously, and it might cause some damage to the surrounding countries, but come on - the meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs was 6 miles across, going 70,000 mph, and probably made up of stone and iron. That chunk of land was maybe half that size

He was probably going to make it a bigger island accelerated at a faster speed (SW's vision has him dropping it nearly from space) until the Avengers busted in and forced him to hurry.

>>82839616

And yet there are still people trying to explain how sympathetic his actions are.

>>82839757
Because he was right. Until he went into revenge mode at the end.

>>82839714
Nigga are you hearing what I'm saying?

That's not the same scenario.

If a police officer tries to dispose of a bomb and they succeed, but the bomber laughs and pulls out a detonator at the last second he wouldn't be held accountable.

Again, legally speaking.

Seriously pay attention.

>>82839714
Depends on what you mean specifically. If a bomb was found somewhere and an untrained officer tried to disarm it before EOD got there, yeah.

If someone threw a grenade at a cop and he made a split-second decision to throw it away from himself though?

>>82839441
It's kind of like blaming the firefighters and volunteers on 9/11 for everyone who died in the world trade center.
>>82839484
I don't doubt that there are people that like the heroes in the Marvel universes. It just feels like the writers tend to write way too many stories about how judged and persecuted the heroes are. It's like the first day at a writing job for marvel you have to do an essay on Tall Poppy Syndrome.

>>82839781
Motherfucker I just nearly hit the max post length to explain why he was wrong in every possible way. Let me make things as simple as possible: You don't fucking dismantle the Coast Guard because they didn't manage to save everyone on a sinking ship.

>>82839719
What do you think that shield would be made out of? Justin Hammer is right. Tony carries around a sword and calls it a Shield.

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>>82828615
>Tony has blood on his hand
No, Ultron has blood on his hands. Tony fucked up, but even the cause of that can be traced back to someone else fucking with him (Wanda.)

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>>82826262
>73 people died during an alien invasion

They attacked Midtown Manhattan, not freaking Fargo, ND.

Hundreds if not Thousands of people died in Avengers 1.

Still not the Avengers fault though.

>>82839831
The difference is that the Avengers didn't just fail to save people. They literally caused deaths.

Also, unlike the Avengers, the coast guard already operates under government oversight. The Avengers are a private army who answer to no one. And they weren't being dismantled - They were just now going to be treated like actual law enforcement officials instead of vigilantes.

>>82832877
In fact, Tony specifically went out of his way to cause property damage by destroying a shit ton of planes.

>>82839949
>They literally caused deaths.

You need to pay more attention to the events of AoU! Tony only created Ultron because of the vision Wanda made him experience, but then it turned out that the visions were so specific because of the influence of the Infinity Stone! You want to blame someone, blame Loki and Thanos!

And if the Coast Guard analogy doesn't work, how about this? You don't blame someone who tackles a crazy gunman despite having no obligation to do so for the people who still died at the gunman's hands

>>82840080
>but then it turned out that the visions were so specific because of the influence of the Infinity Stone
What?

This is stated absolutely nowhere.

>>82839949
> They were just now going to be treated like actual law enforcement officials

How so? You mean by being ordered to carry out summary executions like the law enforcement we see on screen? Or by being ordered to ignore evidence that doesn't fit the preferred narrative, like Ross does to Stark?

>>82840080
>You don't blame someone who tackles a crazy gunman despite having no obligation to do so for the people who still died at the gunman's hands
It's more like it a cop shot at a bunch of criminals who were attacking people but a stray bullet hit a civilian. The cop would absolutely come under scrutiny.

>>82840097
It was stated when Thor crashed into Bruce and Tony's attempt to make another sentient robot, and the result was Vision

>How so? You mean by being ordered to carry out summary executions like the law enforcement we see on screen?

Are people still salty that the mass murdering terrorist who was just thought to have bombed the United Nations headquarters, was carrying grenades, can benchpress a car, can kill a man with a single light blow, and would have killed four law enforcement officers if CA hadn't stopped him was ordered to be shot on sight?

>>82840106
>How so?
By actually answering to public officials and not just doing whatever you think right right, illegal or not.

>You mean by being ordered to carry out summary executions like the law enforcement we see on screen?
The German police were 100% in their rights to use lethal force in this context.

>Or by being ordered to ignore evidence that doesn't fit the preferred narrative, like Ross does to Stark?
Ross not believing what Tony says is wrong in this case, but also understandable and legal.

>>82840134
Not if it came down to firing like that or letting even more people die for sure

>>82840187
No he didn't, he said his visions were ABOUT the Infinity stones and how they were going to fuck shit up at some point.

>>82840216
He still absolutely would be. They would likely ultimately find him innocent, but there would undoubtedly be an investigation into whether the cop acted irresponsibly.

>>82838558
A casualty is not a fatality.

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>>82839831
>You don't fucking dismantle the Coast Guard because they didn't manage to save everyone on a sinking ship.
This is kind of a bad example because the Coast guard already works for the government and acts on their behalf.

The issue with the Accords wasn't the fuck ups, it was the fact that the Avengers were fucking up in countries that had absolutely no say in whether or not their actions there were lawful in the first place, and being a small group of people, had no reason to assume they were there for entirely benevolent reasons.

Ultron is just an example, but the Avengers are not entirely safe from internal fuck ups that result in massive destruction, or even dubiously aligned people like Wanda or Vision that seriously may very well decide one day that a more Darwinian approach to society might be more suitable (obviously the viewer knows this won't happen, but the world fucking doesn't.)

People are both grateful of the Avengers and scared shitless of them. They are a group of superhumans that answer to no one, and the last thing any country wants to see is a Avengers showing up in their land because they just KNOW that means shit's about to hit the fan and that their people will get caught in the crossfire. Just look at the intro to AoU; if the Avengers hadn't attacked Von Strucker's base, there would have been no stray shots pecking the city. If the Avengers hadn't showed up at the airport to blow off steam at each other in lieu of a compromise, there wouldn't be a wrecked airport.

Just because the Avengers saved the world doesn't mean the world wants them fighting wherever they want based on their own internal judgement with no consequences for the damage caused by their arrival and the actions taken to fight terrorism/HYDRA/whatever, especially if it wasn't an immediate threat to the people.

Also, y'know...Hulk.

>>82839868
It's all Wanda's fault.

Probably because I was raised by a Lawyer, i just can't help but think about how the insurance BS behind all this shit.

I mean, would they chalk it up to "Act of God" to avoid paying up? If Thor was involved, that'd certainly be an option.

>>82839870
Typhoon Roke the very one that made media buzz for wreaking Japan's mainland and taking the nation by surprise causing 120 million in damages killed only 13 people

You seriously underestimate how sturdy humans are.

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>>82840291

>>82840215
>shoot-on-sight order
>100% right
>ignoring evidence because you don't want to hear it
>understandable and legal

OH

And another thing.

Let's talk about this from a real life perspective, if a bunch of mutants or aliens invaded a city in real life and like, 20 or 30 guys got their guns and fought them off but the aliens started firebombing the city, would this militia end up getting sued?

Hell no, they weren't the only ones there and they aren't the fucking military. It's not their fault they didn't defend the WHOLE city. It's especially not their fault if they actually STOPPED the destruction and pushed them back where they came from.

>>82840294
What I never understood was Wanda was all shaken up about that explosion and killed when just a movie before that she willingly set a rampaging Hulk through the same city by messing with his mind.
Where was her guilt for that?

>>82840391
>shoot-on-sight order
>100% right
In Bucky's case? Abso-fucking-lutely. It was EXTREMELY likely that attempting to arrest him would be a death sentence. And the police don't like to throw their officers lives away.

>ignoring evidence because you don't want to hear it
>understandable and legal
He ignored the evidence because he didn't believe Tony.

>>82839441
Zemo himself emphasized when he was speaking about the incident to Cap that no one really gave a shit about Sokovia since it was already lost.
He was even letting his son watch "The Iron Man" from a distance because despite the chaos it was entertaining from a safe distance, so he was clearly neutral toward the Avengers before unlike Wanda and Pietro.

But it was because after all this they got to go home to safety with smiles on their faces while his home was buried under debris, and the Avengers apparently did not even stay behind to help dig through for possible survivors, that brewed his hate.

Now again, if he didn't do sabotage them what would he have for it? They'd carry on and his family would still be dead.
This wasn't revenge however, it was a lesson of humility. He did not care whether or not it was due, it's the very fact they did not want it that was the reason it was on the curriculum.

>>82840448

now then, this doesn't have the whole, "Bad analogy, government oversight!" argument

>>82840448
Again, the problem isn't failing to save people - It's actually causing other deaths in the process.

>>82840291
This is the strongest point in the thread and the major note to look at when people started caring, a lot of meta human destruction was done in the states but no one objected. It wasn't till these US based heroes were destroying foreign cites and lives that the world to action.

>>82840291
>if the Avengers hadn't attacked Von Strucker's base,

They didn't though; the perimeter guard panicked

> there would have been no stray shots pecking the city

They weren't stray shots; Strucker had his guys aim at the city

> If the Avengers hadn't showed up at the airport to blow off steam at each other

Cap's team wasn't trying to fight at the airport; they were just trying to get to Clint's helicopter. And the team that wanted to start a fight at the airport was already acting under the Accords.

>>82836856

It does when you literally built the fucking thing.

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>>82840291

>>82840685
Thank you.

I was waiting for someone to do that.

I'm pathetic, I know.

>>82840623
>They didn't though; the perimeter guard panicked
Were they planning on just walking up to Strucker, asking nicely for the staff, and leaving him alone after he handed it over?

>And the team that wanted to start a fight at the airport was already acting under the Accords.
Tony's team didn't want to fight any more than Cap's did. This was made very clear.

>>82840291
This is why I didn't understand why they just didn't shadow Crossbones at the start of the film.
That was a very grandstanding entrance he made but it was clear that he was getting it to someone so why not let him think all is clear and shadow him away from the public then kick his ass?

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>>82840291
This sums it up best. The whole "look at all the people that died" thing was just a load of guilt-tripping.

The Accords aren't an unreasonable compromise; the issues are that Ross was simply using them to acquire control of the most deadly force on the planet rather than simply make sure they're being responsible with their evil-fighting.

>>82840720
Aren't we all? It's rare we get a post so good that others save it.

Hey guys is 2002 Captain America worth a read? By Rieber and Cassaday.

Should I just skip into Brubaker?

>>82840720
Take pride in your work whatever shame it may bring, I've been going in for (You)s since Friday.

>>82840480
>It was EXTREMELY likely that attempting to arrest him would be a death sentence.

That doesn't justifyba shoot-on-sight order at all though. In order to use deadly force you need to have reason to believe the target INTENDS to place you or others at risk. Intent is a big deal in law enforcement since it's always a grey area and up to the officer's judgment. But you absolutely can't claim you know what someone's intent is before you even see him. They also failed to identify themselves as police before attacking, which police are required to do unless it isn't feasible ( like say, he opened fire first.) If for instance, a police officer attemps to restrain you and you beat the shit out of him, but it turns out he never made it clear he was a cop, and it was conceivable you thought you were being attacked by some random guy, you are absolutely justified in defending yourself.

>He ignored the evidence because he didn't believe Tony.

He didn't need to believe Tony when Tony came to him with actual fucking footage and police records. That's why it's called evidence; he didn't need to take anyone at their word.

>>82840754
But see that would make a boring film. At best it's the Avengers agreeing to it but wanting terms of autonomy on mission action while Ross huffs and puffs about it.

>>82840754
>the issues are that Ross was simply using them to acquire control of the most deadly force on the planet rather than simply make sure they're being responsible with their evil-fighting.
Pretty good point.
Also cap was sort of right, I mean I didn't read the accords but cap/wanda were right that they would lead to ppl getting Ship V&.
Pretty scary if you're an avenger that any time the UN wants they can stick you in a cell on a boat that didn't even have a bathroom.
I mean these are the same people that don't do a fucking thing when Palestine gets carpet bombed.

>>82840754
>the most deadly force on the planet

It's funny that you say that when without the hulk or thor there it's basically just a bunch of weirdos in spandex having a slap fight with each other.

>>82840993
Well, not quite.

Tony's Armors at the very least put them as dangerous as an entire Armored Division.

Vision is on the Thor Scale at the very least, and his phasing power makes him increadiblty hard to track and damage.

And then there's Wanda. Not quite on tier with those directly, but still exheedingly dangerous.

The rest are basically high end humans/low superhumans who can be dealt with via a LOT of conventional firepower.

>>82841096
Shit you're right, I forgot about vision.

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>>82840855
>That doesn't justifyba shoot-on-sight order at all though.
yes it does this fucker killed thousands of people and by their reports just killed another group of people at an embassy meeting with a RPG. The fucker has shown he will kill with extreme prejudiced, you do not tell your team to take him alive because:
1. he'll kill your team
2. he will likely cause civilian deaths.
You shot to stop and if that kills him so be it.

> In order to use deadly force you need to have reason to believe the target INTENDS to place you or others at risk.
This guy was wreaking up a public street in Winter Soldier, with no remorse who got hurt. And again, they think he just bombed a embassy meeting from a public truck outside. The fucker shows no sign of hesitation.

>But you absolutely can't claim you know what someone's intent is before you even see him.
they have 30 years worth of files and documents showing otherwise.

>They also failed to identify themselves as police before attacking, which police are required to do unless it isn't feasibl
They were GSG 9 not good old street cops, these fuckers are sent in to stop a threat not play nice with a terrorist. Bucky wasn't a citizen he didn't have rights.

>>82840993
As with how Ross got Stark and the others to police Steve he probably thought he could get them to police Banner. Whether he runs or turns himself in Ross wins.

>>82841122
Wanda's terrifying because she was capable of taking direct control of Vision and forcing activation of his powers. Not to mention that she was shown as fully capable of manipulating large numbers of vehicles at once.

>>82840855
>a police officer attemps to restrain you and you beat the shit out of him, but it turns out he never made it clear he was a cop, and it was conceivable you thought you were being attacked by some random guy, you are absolutely justified in defending yourself.
So you think US police procedural regulations apply to German Special Police?

Seriously, how the heck do you reliably and safely non-lethally incapacitate Bucky? He can tank a couple dozen tank punches from a guy who's got a haymaker 6 times as powerful as a heavyweight boxer's without going down, so bludgeoning him into submission with batons or rifle butts is right out. A stun grenade will only stun him without knocking him out. He'll probably just tank a stinger grenade with minor bruises based on the impact he and CA have tanked before. And as we saw during CA:TWS's elevator fight, as well as Widow's confrontation with BP at the end of the movie, tasers that knock out grown men with a single shot don't do anything more to super soldiers than sting and stun them for a couple seconds. Bucky would probably take over 20 shots to bring down like that.

Even if you could knock him out, there's absolutely no way to do this without losing several officers. Shooting him on sight is the only sane response. It's extra justified considering that we later see Bucky was armed with very powerful explosives in that scene.

And it was a good plan; if Cap hadn't intervened, he probably would have been killed with few to no losses. Even with Cap and BP intervening, they still captured all three super soldiers and didn't really NEED War Machine to do it. They had them surrounded by rifle-armed cops anyway, War Machine was just the lock on the door. If Cap had let Bucky kill those officers, and killed the ones he fought himself, we're still only dealing with around ten deaths.

>>82841148
What about Thor?

He's literally one of the strongest guys in the universe and he doesn't play that shit.

Aside from Vision and maybe wanda they'd be sitting ducks while he beat tony to death and electrocuted the rest of them.

>>82840855
>He didn't need to believe Tony when Tony came to him with actual fucking footage and police records. That's why it's called evidence; he didn't need to take anyone at their word.
More likely it just escalated to where it didn't matter anymore, Bucky had a kill count of 135 officials all high ranking. Him not killing a a few embassy reps doesn't make everything fine. Never mind that Cap with his team willing protected him.

That's the stupid of you and the film, Ross should have said "That doesn't undo those other 135 murders and the fact Cap aided a mass killers escape"
"He was brain wash"
"So he's a weapon and as such needs to be found and lock up until disarmed"
But you know that would have shown how retarded Caps gay love crush for Bucky was.

>>82841096
>Tony's Armors at the very least put them as dangerous as an entire Armored Division.

LOL. Your average Iron Man suit is substantially less well armed and armored than a single IFV. A lot more portable and maneuverable though. Like a fighter jet combined with an IFV and squeezed into a man-sized package.

>tony gets the team to sign the accords but under his rules
Done. Of course cap wouldnt sign, he just came out of an incident where everyone in the american government was a hidden hydra agent. To overthrow that and then sign onto another potential shield-hydra is stupid. On the otherhand, signing calms the whole world since they did lift a city into the sky. People are going to be scared that their neighbourhood is next. Tony gets them to sign, but fights for individual freedom of its members, again because of hydralike threats of monitoring their members and sabotage. Tony can pull it off since he can argue that they either work on their own agreed terms or not at all.

>>82841293
You did see the part of Iron Man I where it took a tank round that only knocked it out of the sky?

And when he returned fire with a small rocket, it decemating the tank?

And the armors have gotten better since then.

I'd compare it to an Attack Helicopter, but with heavier armor (at least heavy Tank), a smaller profile, and fighter jet speed.

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I really liked Spider-Man's portrayal in this movie. Both in Peter and Spidey. I thought they billed him as an extremely agile and very FUCKING strong meta. He's beaten out by Cap, overall, but that's to be expected since Spidey just started his gig 6 months ago and most likely has no formal combat training.

Does anyone here think that they could take the Thunderbolts/Raft angel for a Spidey re-boot? I'm not incredibly familiar with the T-Bolts background, but I figured:

>Osborne works on a serum that is very much like the serum used to create the Winter Soldier(s) program.

>Pitches it to Ross as a way to "Get the Avengers you want AND be able to control them"

>Ross okays the serum's experimentation on prisoners aboard the raft

>Executes order to form The Thunderbolts

From there I'm a little fuzzy on how Spidey would get involved and without having a shit ton of hero cameos from Avengers. I'd like to think Oz eventually turns to his "true intentions" or even sets up Spidey to look like the Bad Guy. Ending with using a "modified" serum on himself (gobber serum) and becoming Green Goblin towrads the end.

>Optional Osborne becomes Iron Patriot Mk 2 to become team leader, cameo/help from Tony to smack him down which leads to Normal seruming up.

>>82841336
except that didn't happen, the papers were already written and the movie never once mentions amendments to it. Either sign on their terms and get v& or don't sign and get v& eventually.

>>82841134
>1. he'll kill your team
>2. he will likely cause civilian deaths.

They have no way of knowing this before they started shooting. Like you said, they THOUGHT he bombed the UN. He was a suspect. The reason summary execution isn't a thing in first world mations is because suspects have rights until they are convicted.

>This guy was wreaking up a public street in Winter Soldier, with no remorse who got hurt.

So have lots of people who have been brought in alive over the years. It doesn't matter if he's wanted for killing a million people; you don't get to use deadly force until he presents an immediate threat.

> they have 30 years worth of files and documents showing otherwise.

Having killed someone in the past does not prove intent to kill now, unless "in the past" was minutes ago and he's still holding the weapon. Remember this guy hasn't had his day in court; unless one of the cops sees him attacking someone they have no grounds to declare him guilty.

>>82841283
Ross probably figured Thor would either fall in line and obey the consensus, as he seemed to be doing, or go away only show when necessary but answering to the UN how he does SHIELD.

Thor really has no stake in this after all, he arrives as quickly as he leaves regardless of Earth matters. He likely wouldn't take to being told not to be so destructive in his efforts but like with his lesson in Thor 1 he'd probably take it up as part of the whole worthy thing and just get on with it.

>>82828952
>>Widow was [..] a whistleblower that shut down an entire government agency
And this is a bad thing how? Unless you're saying that would put her in the sights of other government agencies.

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>>82841356

>You did see the part of Iron Man I where it took a tank round that only knocked it out of the sky?

Did you not see the part where the tank had an anti-aircraft gun on the side of the tank and Iron Man was clearly hit by a flak burst?

> And when he returned fire with a small rocket, it decemating the tank?

And when a small rocket penetrated the turret and set off an ammunition explosion, you mean? Modern small rockets can do that. The modern version of 66mm HEAT can penetrate 350mm of RHA, more than enough to perforate the turret armor of a T-62 (212 mm RHA) like that little missile. The missile Tony used wasn't much smaller than that.

He only has one of those per suit, too.

>I'd compare it to an Attack Helicopter, but with heavier armor (at least heavy Tank), a smaller profile, and fighter jet speed.

A tank driver wouldn't panic and try to dodge when being shot at by a 20mm cannon bra, not even the crappy ones from the 50s. Or a Stinger. Also a tank's armor couldn't have pits put into it by a 7.62 minigun. And Captain America couldn't embed his shield a centimeter or so into tank armor.

Iron Man's armor is explicitly stated to be gold-titanium. It varies in thickness from 1 to 4 cm, eyeballing it. That puts his protection around that of a light IFV like the LAV-25. As for firepower, the average suit has the repulsors, a few dozen micro-missiles, and one light anti-tank missile. A light IFV or a fighter jet are both considerably more heavily armed than that.

>>82841288
>That's the stupid of you and the film, Ross should have said "That doesn't undo those other 135 murders and the fact Cap aided a mass killers escape"

That's the stupid of you. No one was saying that erases all his murders. Bucky was one of 6 people in the world willing to go after the real threat. Remember Cap was fine with him being brought into custody but that goes out the window when there's a killer on the loose and everyone else refuses to admit it.

If Cap had any reason at all to believe someone was going to follow up on looking for Zemo, he would have no reason not to put Bucky back into custody.

>>82841574
>And Captain America couldn't embed his shield a centimeter or so into tank armor.

He's cut tanks in half with it in the comics

>>82841574
Good eye.

You're probably right about the secondary detonation.

IIRC, the Iron Man armor adds several inches Tony's height. (R. Downy is 5'9", the suit is 6'5")

So the armor is likely thicker than you're giving it credit (it's also officially 6 to 800lbs according to the design team).

Though I think you're missing a few things on the overall armaments, especially recently.

Repulsors, micro-missiles (shoulder mounted), at least 2 Anti-Tank rockets (one on each arm), high energy lasers (2, one on each arm), the sonic cannon (likely two as well), and the Uni-beam.

But you may be right about overall firepower.

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>>82841474
>they THOUGHT he bombed the UN.
But they knew thanks to both the TV telling you dummies and in the last film that Bucky was wanted for a 135+ major murders. They knew he was a killer and they had been looking for him for 2 years. Suspect is a mute point, they know he's a killer.

>So have lots of people who have been brought in alive over the years.
they were all shot, they all used deadly force, the suspect either surrendered or got lucky and the bullet didn't kill them.
>you don't get to use deadly force until he presents an immediate threat.
He was an immediate threat, he had killed so many before that UN incident that it's a mute point.
Also you are forgetting he tried to kill about 9 of them when Cap was trying to get him out of there. The actions were just.

>Having killed someone in the past does not prove intent to kill now
It does when the suspect has murdered authorities to escape in the past. Bith in current day and Hydra files it shows he killed authorities to escape capture. They are within the rights to use deadly force.

>unless one of the cops

They are not cops spyrgo the retard. They were an counter terrorist assault team. Bucky is a terrorist, they have proof of it, they have evidence for it. And again he wasn't a German citizen so he has no rights so you can keep crying all day they did shit wrong but they did everything by the book when dealing with a person that killed hundreds of people.

>>82841574

He did have that one-off red laser too. Speaking of which, what the fuck is that? I dont remember him having that in his usual comic arsenal at all.

>>82826262

Except this is exactly how it works in real life. This is probably the best written piece of the movie because it's literally art imitating life. Politicians will do and say anything to secure power over others.

>>82826607
>he doesn't know about Hulk's supermath

>>82841726
> Bucky was one of 6 people in the world willing to go after the real threat.
you mean the guy that killed the metas and baited Tony.
Yeah good job.
Also Cap could have had Bucky surrender and team secret Avengers could have busted in the secret lair and saved the day.
But no Caps gotta have his Boyfriend so 4 friends get jailed and one crippled over it.

>>82836794

What's funny is, in this case, Steve would have signed the document, precisely because it WAS about responsibility.

>>82841726
>If Cap had any reason at all to believe someone was going to follow up on looking for Zemo
He had a whole team for that.
He could have had Bucky and maybe one other run one way to get Tony's team chasing them while team B got the hell out of there and went to finish the mission. Hell Zemo would have been so pissed.
"You think I wanted the world to have any more lik- wait who are you all? Is that a bird costume?"
"come on man"

>>82841777
>He's cut tanks in half with it in the comics

He's also beaten up the Hulk in the comics. He's not MCU Cap.

>IIRC, the Iron Man armor adds several inches Tony's height. (R. Downy is 5'9", the suit is 6'5") So the armor is likely thicker than you're giving it credit (it's also officially 6 to 800lbs according to the design team).

Averaging 700 pounds of titanium over the surface area of a man (1.9m2) gets you about 1.5 inches of average thickness. Since the Iron Man suit is taller and bulkier than the average man, it would be a good bit lower for the suit, since the weight is distributed across a larger area. Around 3 cm of average thickness at most. That's assuming that the suit's pure titanium and also pure armor, when a significant portion of its weight comes from stuff other than armor. So its average thickness must be considerably lower still. Of course parts of it are thicker than other parts. The torso is obviously more well armored than the fingers for example.

1 to 4 cm is just what I get from eyeballing it in the suit-up sequences, with 4 cm/one and a half inches being the chest, and 1 cm being the thinnest parts like the face plate.

>Repulsors, micro-missiles (shoulder mounted), at least 2 Anti-Tank rockets (one on each arm), high energy lasers (2, one on each arm), the sonic cannon (likely two as well), and the Uni-beam.

I forgot about the lasers. But the really powerful ones we saw were one-use, and we don't know how strong the "normal" one is. As for the sonic cannon, that seems to be a War Machine exclusive thing, and is a non-lethal weapon anyway. There's also those shoulder guns, but those appear to be pistol-caliber small arms. None of these three weapons are really relevant in a fire power comparison though are certainly useful in their own ways.

For comparison, an F-16 will carry a 20mm cannon with 500 rounds of ammunition, 2 2,000 pound bombs, and 6 missiles (four A-A, 2 A-G) each weighing several hundred pounds.

>>82841815
meant to quote this guy sorry

>>82826558
Should've been Bucky first, Accords second.

Bucky is framed, and since he's got a knock-off of Cap's serum running through him, the UN tries to lock Cap and Friends down with the accords. So The accords grow out of Cap's connection to Bucky, instead of that relationship adding to a plot device no one wants to remember.

>>82840855
>In order to use deadly force you need to have reason to believe the target INTENDS to place you or others at risk.
Which they absolutely had reason to believe. The guy is a brainwashed super-assassin.

>>82841846

>But they knew thanks to both the TV telling you dummies and in the last film that Bucky was wanted for a 135+ major murders.

Key word: wanted. They had no way of knowing he was guilty since you know, they had never taken him to court. And even if they did know, they raided some guy's house based on a tip. They could have been about to kill some unlucky schmuck who happened to RESEMBLE the winter soldier.


>they were all shot, they all used deadly force, the suspect either surrendered or got lucky and the bullet didn't kill them.

So now you're just making shit up and talking out your ass. Mass killers have been brought in without deadly force.


>He was an immediate threat, he had killed so many before that UN incident that it's a mute point.

That's not what an immediate threat is. And moot and mute are two different words.

>Also you are forgetting he tried to kill about 9 of them when Cap was trying to get him out of there. The actions were just.

At that point he was merely excercising self defense since they tried to kill him first.


>It does when the suspect has murdered authorities to escape in the past.

No. Go in with weapons drawn and safety off, sure. Kill him if he makes any sudden moves, sure. But decide to kill him on sight? No


>They are not cops spyrgo the retard. They were an counter terrorist assault team.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSG_9

They are law enforcement


>Bucky is a terrorist, they have proof of it

That's for a jury to decide

>And again he wasn't a German citizen

Thay is definitely not a reason to execute someone

> they did everything by the book when dealing with a person that killed hundreds of people.

No

>>82841474
>They have no way of knowing this before they started shooting.
Yes, they do. They know for a fact that Bucky is armed, super-strong, highly-trained, and has killed cops without hesitation.

>>82842032
>you mean the guy that killed the metas and baited Tony.

No I mean the guy willing to kill heads of state and bomb public spaces because it was convenient to him. If no one caught him he could easily do it again.

>>82842346
But that is exactly what happened. They were fighting over Bucky, with the Accords escalating it.

>>82842470
>>82842436

You guys don't understand what intent is in a deadly force justification sense

https://www.useofforce.us/3aojp/

>The most subjective factor of the AOJP analysis is the jeopardy requirement, sometimes called “imminent jeopardy.” This criterion requires that, in your specific situation, a “reasonable and prudent” person would have believed himself to be in immediate danger.

>In other words, jeopardy is what distinguishes between a potentially dangerous situation and one that is actually dangerous. Hundreds of times every day, you walk by people who could punch or stab or shoot you. The reason you aren’t “defending” yourself against them is because you have no reason to think that they are actually about to attack you. (Why would they?)

>On the other hand, if someone screams a threat and points a gun at you, any sane person would expect that behavior to indicate an intent to cause you harm.

>The other important qualifier to remember is that the jeopardy must be immediate. A general threat to your well-being in the distant future is meaningless, but “I’m gonna kill you right now!” is meaningful.

>Finally, it’s essential to understand that the “immediate jeopardy” condition can go away at the drop of a hat. On the one hand, if you are attacked, beaten, and left lying in an alley, you are not justified in shooting your attacker in the back as he walks away, because he will have ceased to be a threat. On the other hand, if he turns around and comes back for more, then the immediate jeopardy resumes. Jeopardy can cease suddenly and unexpectedly if your attacker surrenders or clearly ceases to be a threat (if you knock him unconscious, for instance, or he tries to run), and continuing to use force in such situations can change your action from legal self-defense to illegal battery in moments.

>>82842401
did you even watch Winter Solider or are you just shiposting?

>>82843428
Do you have a point? If you're suggesting I use audience knowledge to judge him then I know he was a puppet used against his will and thus does not deserve to die.

If I'm not using audience knowledge then he's a suspect who has not been proven guilty in court and Germany doesn't have capital punishment anyway. But it's not like that matters since Winter Soldier happened in the US so he should be extradited there.

>>82843640
Check up on and read about how GSG-9 typically operates.

>>82843707
https://www.quora.com/The-german-GSG9-has-done-more-than-2000+-missions-How-come-they-only-fired-shots-5-times

No one's really responded to that above comment about how taking Buck the Cuck without lethal force is effectively impossible.
>>82841254

>>82843874
Wow, make it 6 since there was a known/suspected terrorist who was known around spy circles as "the Winter Soldier" (Widow mentioned this in Cap 2), who is armed, dangerous, and is actively resisting arrest with a cyberarm that can throw people around like ragdolls.

Or would that only call for a tasering, if you happened to be on that squad? You'd just pull out your baton and go at it?

>>82843928
Send in War Machine with his stun stick. That was easy. I bet Panther could do it if he wasn't foaming at the mouth. Or Vision, or Iron Man. Or Wanda. These are just the options that immediately spring to mind, assuming you believe Cap is too emotionally compromised to do it himself.

>>82840372

Yeah, but it wasn't just some natural disaster.

It was aliens.

With weapons.

And explicitly shown trying to kill people when interrupted by the Avengers.

And had lots and lots of reserves the Avengers could do nothing to stop, offscreen.

>>82843998
>and is actively resisting arrest


They never tried to arrest him.

>>82844110
I wonder why?

Maybe it was because right when they busted down the door they were attacked? Or does that call for pepper spray?

>>82841474
>Summary executions not a thing in the first world.
>Osama Bin Laden shot like a dog in his own home.
>Drone strikes killing ISIS, Al Qaeda, and Taliban folks far from any court room or jurisdiction.

Bucky is being treated like a one man terrorist army, not a serial killer on the killer.

>>82844216
*Serial killer on the run.

>>82841096
>And then there's Wanda. Not quite on tier with those directly, but still exheedingly dangerous.

How do we think Wanda's powers compare to the /co/ universe? I mean, does she have "rebuild the entire world in her image" level power, or is she just X-Men-Cartoon levels of 'red energy punches?'

>>82844152


>Maybe it was because right when they busted down the door they were attacked

Because they busted down his door to kill him. Look, it's clear you have no idea what a use of force continuum is but let me break it down for you. No one has to use pepper spray, ever, if they know it won't work. But they are required to use the least amount of force necessary. The lowest amount of force is words. If words don't work, and you know lethal force is the only thing that will work, fine. But they didn't even try. They went for lethal force right off the bat. No "come out with your hands up," no "police! We have the place surrounded." Nothing but bullets and flash grenades.

>>82844358


They busted down the door with SOP.

If a SWAT team receives a warrant to arrest someone, they gear up, bust down the door and are met with an immediate assault, they will open fire and they're not even counter-terrorists.

Winter Soldier is well known to be a merc/assassin. His handlers even have a video of him clearly murdering two people (Mr and Mrs Stark) and it stands to reason that there is plenty of other hard evidence or witnesses (Black Widow, or associates) of him doing more of the same. He has not legally been convicted in a court of law, but when there his hard evidence similar to the 1991 video, the people being sent in to apprehend him are going to be armed to the teeth and take absolutely no chances at the first sign of trouble.

CTU's and SWATS hardly ever kncok on the door and shout. It's called a No Knock Warrant, if you'd like to google it. And there's a reason why they do that.

Please stop shitposting autistic paragraphs to try and make parts of the movie fit your narrative.

>>82844505


>If a SWAT team receives a warrant to arrest someone
>arrest

Quit lying

The whole "the Avengers are responsible for these people's deaths" thing sorta falls flat because if they DIDN'T intervene, a lot more people would have died. 200 people dying is bad, but Ultron was going for 7 billion.

>>82846696
A much better argument is, why is a paramilitary force capable of destroying alien armies and industrial sky fleets able to operate across all borders with no authority and no jurisdiction?

>>82846696
Not to mention it flies in the face of what AoU was trying to convey in its final act, which I recall being as much about rescuing civilians as fighting Ultron's forces. Shit, they even brought in Helicarrier Ex Machina to shuttle people to safety en masse. Of all the battles in superhero movies you could point to and say "Hundreds died offscreen while the heroes did nothing but perpetuate the senseless violence!", the Battle of Sokovia is probably the WORST example.

>>82847096
I'd say from a certain perspective...to avoid redtape. If there's an imminent threat like a xeno invasion, do you want heads of the UN to sit around and bicker if they should send them in or not? Or just have the world police go and do it?

Or if theres an conspiracy plot where some HYDRA splinter cell as a WMD, whats to keep a UN member from blocking the vote because theyre being paid off by HYDRA? So an investigation has to be launched, etc.

It's not that, say, Cap doesn't want any oversight at all. He feels that not having the red tape and not being beholden to anyone with an agenda is a good thing. Given how Cap is portrayed, so far, it is safe to say he is about incorruptible and pretty much almost always right on his gut instincts.

Someone like Tony, however, should've been kicked out of the Avengers long ago and supervised, as he's almost always the root of most of their problems.

File: 1456365788942.jpg (167KB, 1279x720px) Image search: [Google]

167KB, 1279x720px

>>82826607
>>82826788
>>82837671
>Battle of New York had a death count that was to low
>Man of Steel had a death count that was to high
Where is the middle ground

>>82841526

She leaked everything from SHIELD databases to the internet. EVERYTHING. Without redacting a single goddamn thing. That should have had huge impact on national security and raised several issues with people using the information to kill exposed confidential informants, undercover agents, breach security sites, etc.

Instead it was
>HYDRA GOT EXPOSED, HAPPY ENDING EVERYBODY!

>>82847211
If the Avengers were accountable, then Stark would've gotten kicked by now.

It'd be nice if the Avengers were a team with strong emergency powers, that could at least be called to task after the dust had settled, but that's not what they are. And part of being accountable means turning over the international terrorist, Winter Soldier. Not attacking the German special police.

>>82847267
Fair enough, though I would argue TWS ended on less of a "happy ending" note and more of a "shit sucks, but we should be optimistic" note.

>>82847314
Well, they did. Then Zemo happened so not the best of ideas. Plus Cap knew he wasn't guilty and Cap is never wrong.

It's not about how many people died VS how many people were saved, it's about responsibility.

Let's say a group of terrorists in your city stole a nuke and are threatening something, blah blah and the Avengers come in and stop them in a big battle and your house gets destroyed in the process. Maybe a couple people die/get hurt and a million are saved because the nukes are recovered. Your house is gone and you're homeless.

The Avengers, a predominantly American private military group then goes home. You can petition the American govt. to build you a new home

>"we don't control the Avengers. Sorry."

You then go to the country the terrorists come from.

>"We don't condone the actions of a few radical criminals and, while we lament the loss of your home, we cannot supply funds for a new one."

So while the world celebrates the Avengers and the media goes wild, you're homeless because shit happens and nobody takes responsibility. It's just collateral damage. Soldiers stepping on an anthill. So what do you do? Write a letter to Tony Stark or send him an email? Sure, he could afford to help, but will he? He doesn't owe it to you.

Hence the accords. There is logic to it because now there is a place you can go to that is actually answerable for the destruction caused.

>>82847314
>And part of being accountable means turning over the international terrorist, Winter Soldier

So he can be killed? Why are the unaccountable guys the ones showing restraint?

>>82829651
You put the Avengers, the worlds greatest super fighting force, behind paper work and governmental decision making, you are basically signing a death certificate for twice as many people than would have normally died.

If Ross and the UN think the death toll of the previous incidents were bad, imagine it with the Avengers having to sit on standby while the UN, after receiving word of the emergency, are then flown to the UN building and prepped for a meeting, so they are all brought in, which could take hours, and sat down, thus begins the briefing, covering all the details of the situation, whose doing who and where it is, and most likely would involve a proposed team from the Avengers line up, along with some plan as to what they intend to do when they arrive, and after wards, most likely a round of inquiries from concerned parties and suggestions to improve the set up, which could take another few hours at the least. Then a vote would be called, I assume majority rule (and of course this is going easy on the government system, which would most likely hold a vote just to hold a vote to send the team) so assuming the majority goes with sending the Avengers out, we then send the alert to Avengers HQ, or whoever is their handler, who then contacts the on-standby Avengers, assembles the team, briefs them and ships them off to begin the operation. So weve spent a lot of time on just bureaucratic work to even agree to send the Avengers in. So for situations like Crossbone's theft, it might work properly, since they would have forewarning to a crisis and could get the business out of the way and set up an operation, but what about for situations that are literally surprises for everyone? Thousands would die in the time it takes all those suits to prepare for the meeting at the UN. Imagine the battle for NY, or Hulk rampaging, but given like a eight hour head start with no opposition beyond the police.

>>82847341
>Wasn't guilty
Of the most recent crime.

>>82847426
I'm pretty sure that everyone representing a nation in the UN lives and works in New York in their countries embassies.