What is with Synder's obsession with adding really obvious

Because Snyder wants to make his movies deep, but has no idea how to actually go about that.

>>82807369
Because makes it work, I can watch MoS and BvS in black and white or on mute and appreciate the visual prowess that Snyder can muster.

Why people have problem with Christian imagery or Christianity in general?

Movies back then was full of Christian values and imagery.

>>82807602
Hello Synder

Supes is more like Moses than Jesus anyways

>>82807369
>What is with Synder's obsession with adding really obvious christian imagery into his DCEU movies?
Because he doesn't like superheroes, and feel that superheroes are false gods. So he needed a superhero to actually BE Jesus. This is very common, with many "Christian Reviewers" judge the morality of a film by how Christ-like the hero is, and the less the hero resemble Jesus the less they like the Hero.

There was a review of the film "Kongfu Hustle", where the reviewer complained that the hero spared the life of the villain because "the villain is the devil, and you are suppose to kill the devil."

The eyes of a Christian is a strange one. Everything is either a reference to the Bible or heresy.

>>82807369
Well he's not on script entirely for DC stuff so how much of it is his directing I can't say, but given the end result of his directing I take it like Sucker Punch he wants to feel he's doing something clever when it's really just a distraction from the lacking elsewhere.

It makes for nice Trailer material after all.

>>82807778
*tips fedora*

>>82807809
>*tips fedora*
Are you denying it? Go check out one of those "Christian Review" sites.

Or are you one of them?

>>82807852
you think christian movie review websites represent all Christians?

>>82807689
No he's not.

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>>82807778

>The eyes of a Christian is a strange one. Everything is either a reference to the Bible or heresy.

Except I'm pretty damn Christian and I think Superman deserves to be represented as his own character because he's strong enough to carry stories without being compared to Christ.
I always saw him more like Moses anyway

>>82807916
>you think christian movie review websites represent all Christians?
No, but I am directly referencing Christian Reviewers and their target audiences. Once again, are you denying their existence? Are you denying that Snyder is directly catering to their needs?

>>82807963
Funny that, because there is a slight issue with the complete absence of Jewish slavery in Egypt... Can't have a Moses if there was never Jewish Slaves to liberate.

>>82807931
I dunno, I think that anon and the camp in general might have a point.

Moses was who God specifically gave powers to in order to do some superheroing, Jesus was to correct a mistake Noah and Adam couldn't. He had abilities and used them to help people but he wasn't really there for that.

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>>82807369
>What is with Synder's obsession with adding really obvious christian imagery into his DCEU movies?

Because it's Baby's First Film Student Imagery and plebs think it will make their shallow film feel deep.

>>82808044
you know plenty of historical figures have had their actual lives conflated with myth and legend, right?

like, they still teach that Betty Ross made the first American flag and that George Washington chopped down a cherry tree in elementary schools. like, what's your point?

>>82807369
>subtlety
>Zack Snyder
There's the problem.

>>82807963
>Except I'm pretty damn Christian
>damn Christian
>damn
I wonder who could be behind this post?
It's Satan.

>>82807689
He is a SUN GOD. One of many, you dumbass burgers see christ since is the only guy you know.

>>82807369
He's a hack who was raised as a christian and never improved after getting out of film school.
Most of these ''biblical reference'' shots are fucking embarassing.

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>>82807852
>are you one of them

>>82808985
>he's a sun god

Nope
o
p
e

>>82809334
YEP
E
YEP

>>82807369
Oh boy it's this forced meme again.

>>82808985
>Jesus is a sun god
what

>>82807369
Because it's easy cinematic shorthand...

Want to endear a character to the Middle American audience quickly without establishing them? Put him through the Stations of the Cross... It's a trick as old as time. Hell, Robocop's done it.

Thing is... You have to be subtle with the Christ allusions and "SUBTLE" is not in Hack Snyder's lexicon...

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>>82809334
Sure, the guy powered by the sun that flies on the sky isnt a sun god.

>>82809736
I'm pretty sure jesus isn't a sun god though

>>82807369
That's what Superman fans want him.
They want the superior moral hero that can solve everything with love and caring and that cares and love about everyone but at the same time is more human than humans and has all the best qualities humanity has to offer.

>>82809803
>solves everything with love and caring
>BvS supes
lmao

>>82809835
This. BvS Supes is a demonic destroyer. Everything he touches turns to ash.

>>82809747
He is. Do americans don't have philosophy classes on school?

>>82809835
>sacrificing yourself to save a planet of monkeys is not an act of love and care

>>82810144
No major religion where Jesus is an important figure ever treats him as the embodiment of the sun nor do they worship the sun

>>82810220
you mean sacrificing yourself to save just one monkey

>>82809707
Similar to how Yahweh borrows a lot of imagery and personality from Zeus, Jesus bears many similarities to Apollo.

He's not literally a sun god, but the influence is there.

>>82810144
>philosophy
you mean theology or mythology

Yeah why is he making god alleghories to the guy whose power it is to hear the entire world, be there in an istsnt and right wrongs

>>82810377
And Easter and Christmas aren't pagan holidays either huh buddy? Jesus may not be worshipped as sun god but he has sun god baggage.
>resurrection
>being associated with light
>crosses are solar symbols

When you muddy the waters of narrative, you give it the illusion of depth

>>82810426
>>82810504
>he's not literally a sun god
>jesus may not be worshipped as a sun god
so we all agree that he's not a sun god

>>82810697
He's a sun god in everything but name

>>82810626
see: NGE

>>82807369
It's not his fault that DC doesn't really have any iconic imagery of its own. The stuff they came up with, Marvel and other competitors - Fawcett spring to mind, but lately even Dark Horse and Image and goddamn Valiant - do better; the rest of it is the same derivative crap that blights every publisher's catalog.

I thought the cross looking fall he does backwards out of the ship in MoS was worse

>>82810782
I dont follow

>>82810804
He is a pleb claming that Neon Genesis Evangelion lacks depth and is just murky water

>>82810795
I liked when he was in the church talking to a priest and looking up at a stainglass of jesus

>>82810795
Yeah that was terrible.

It was in Superman Returns too at one point and it was just as bad

>>82810626
But neither MoS or BvS had a "muddy" narrative.

>>82807778
Except Snyder isn't a Christian.

>>82810829
Even the creators said they only liked the christian imagery cause it was "cool"

>>82810861
That makes the movie even worse

>>82810836
>>82810795
I like how completely overblown you guy make these scenes out to be.

>>82810911
Why?

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>>82810917
What? There was no reason for him to leave the ship like this except for the visual

>>82807809
Wat? He didn't even say religion is bad.

>>82810952
Because why would a non-christian use christian imagery for a savior?

Do you think the Batman solo movie will be full of muslim imaginery?

>>82811030
He's falling backwards anon.

>>82811121
Huh... Batman kills people in BvS, often with suicidal intent which Irons consistently refers to.

Was BvS just christian propaganda the whole time?

>>82811063
Because Jesus is a well known savior?

>>82811164
So Snyder, not believing in jesus as his own savior, just wanted to use jesus just cause people would recognize him?

Seems like he's appealing to the largest demographic for a shallow reason

>>82811030
I'm not saying the imagery isn't there but isn't as heavy handed as /co/ like to make it out to be.

>>82811163
he was also obsessed with a space rock

>>82811063
Christian culture is super pervasive in modern society. Just like how non-Christians can celebrate Christmas, non-Christians can also easily recognize and understand the imagery of a Christ-like savior.

>>82811203
Synder may not be a Christian but Jesus is kinda big in western society. Even non-Christians recognize the savior.

>>82811203
>only Christians can use Jesus in their stories
I seriously hope you don't believe this anon.

>>82811298
Just saying it would be dumb for me to use a bunch of hindu imagery if im not a hindu but just so indian people watch my movie especially since I probably don't understand the imagery that much

>>82808600
Except in this case it would be like basing your religion on events like George Washington chopping down a cherry tree and then later finding no historical facts to support it

>>82811353
You do know that Sybder has study art history and that a lot of the masters did patron work for the church. There's a good chance that Synder understand more about the Imagery of Jesus in art than all of /co/ combined.

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>BvS is a masterpiece, a movie with integrity!
>four ads for other movies in the middle of the movie
>kills off a main character illogically for cheap emotional impact only to show a really obvious 'hint' that he's going to come back
>has a random character with no background join the final conflict, so meaningless that two of the titular characters don't even know who she is
>director uses christian imagery even though he's not a christian just so people understand the heavy-handed symbolism

>>82811420
It's almost like Religion requires faith.

>>82811353
Christianity isn't really hard to figure out though, once you get past the trinity you're pretty much at the hime stretch.

>>82808600
>like, what's your point?
The point? It directly contradicts the entire Abrahamic position of being the "Chosen People, freed from slavery and given the holy land". The entire religion depends on it.

>>82811457
>It's almost like Religion requires faith.
It isn't faith when it is an outright lie. Faith requires ambiguity.

>>82811353
Jesus christ, you do know you that you don't have to be part of that religion to understand it right?

>>82807369
Maybe he just like Jesus. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

>>82807639
People (especially Jews) are triggered by Jesus for the same reason they're triggered by Superman. Jesus is a good person, and they are not good people. They know that they are not good people, so it hurts them to see people who are.

>>82811265
>Just like how non-Christians can celebrate Christmas, non-Christians can also easily recognize and understand the imagery of a Christ-like savior.
How stupid, it is the other way around, Christians celebrate Winter Solstice. It was never a Christian holiday to begin with. Another lie. It was never yours.

>>82811528
Abraham probably never existed either so I guess all judeo religion are false. Hell if the judaism is a lie than the prophecy of their messoah is a lie which means Jesus wasn't the savior.

>>82811531
You should at least be part of the religion if you're going to paint a character as a savior

It would be like me saying "you know, I don't believe in God at all" and then making a movie about the good and greatness of God

>>82811592
>Abraham probably never existed either so I guess all judeo religion are false.
Abraham existed. I have no need to claim everything is a lie, I just need to show what I CAN prove. And what we know as a fact is that there was no Exodus, the entire chapter was fanfiction. And even Jews know it, that's why they had to have the Passover every year because there was no other way to reinforce a lie that never happened.

Of course the Abraham religion existed. It's just that the entire foundation was built on the Jews being freed by their god from slavery in Egypt, which was made up to make themselves the chosen people.

>>82811578
Well aren't you smart, giving us some mindblowing facts that everybody's already known for years?
Maybe take a break from browsing /r/atheism so you can realize that doesn't change my point, and I wasn't even wrong. Whether or not it was the solstice in the past, it's christmas now.

>>82811681
>Whether or not it was the solstice in the past, it's christmas now.
Actually now it is just a commercial holiday in America, and an extra Valentines day in Japan where couples can fuck like rabbits. What was once changed can change again, you don't get to keep your Christmas the way you like.

>>82811647
Well Synder wasn't making a movie about Jesus.

>>82809736
>Sure, the guy powered by the sun that flies on the sky isnt a sun god.
Plants aren't sun gods.

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>>82811575
Jesus was a jew

>>82810861
Proof?

>>82811892
He was raised as a Christian Scientist.

>>82810697
Even his birthday is the birthday of the sun god. This is the problem, a dumbass like snyder is literally too depth for people like you.

>>82811743
But he was

>>82812032
so you mean Snyder confused paganism with christianity?

wow, this is becoming worse and worse

>>82811121
>Do you think the Batman solo movie will be full of muslim imaginery?

For fucks sake i know this is a shitty joke but Batman was filled with Übermensch stuff, that was the whole point of the character and the "bats lifting" escene.

>>82812062
don't try to argue with people if you're retarded, anon.

>>82812062
Wow a dumbass gets confused by a simple action movie? This is terrible

>>82812107
>>82812130
so you agree that snyder confused paganism with christianity? because neither of you guys seem to contest it

This thread is really stupid.

>>82812033
He made a Supermam film that had jesus imagery in it. Quit being so stupid anon, I'm getting worried for you.

>>82812208
more like Christianity borrows a lot from other religions, something literally nobody here contests. Put away the fedora for a minute, would you?

>>82812261
so Snyder is saying that Superman isn't a savior right? because he doesn't believe that Jesus is a savior. Guess that makes sense though, given how Snyder portrayed Superman as a person who isn't very loving or caring.

>>82812310
I'm Christian though. Why would I be the one with the fedora? I'm saying that we don't treat Jesus as a sun god nor do we worship the sun.

>>82811063
Because he thinks it's really DEEP to use religious themes.

>>82812332
>being this obtuse

>>82807602
Yeah, I'd recommend watching them in mute. That way you can't hear the terrible dialogue.

>>82812387
Maybe they're confusing Christianity with Zoroastrianism? Gnosticism? With the whole light versus darkness deal?

Neither of the two are really solar-based, though. They're more conceptual.

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The 'S' stands for 'subtle'

>>82812387
But what we're saying is that even if he's not literally worshipped as a sun god, his mythology is inherited from past sun gods. A rose by any other name, yadda yadda. The halo alone ought to be evidence enough.

If Christianity were a polytheism he would almost certainly be an explicit sun god.

>>82812422
Seems like a relatively easy line of logic that you aren't getting.

Snyder is using Jesus imagery, however Snyder also doesn't believe that Jesus is a savior. Snyder paints Superman as Jesus, therefore Snyder is painting Superman as a non-savior.

>>82811575
Jesus was a Jew
Jews are the chosen people in the bible
Superman was created by Jewish writers

>>82812488
>the stained glass is showing Jesus in the garden, where he had his own crisis of faith
You make fun but yeah it is.

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>>82812387
>sun god nor do we worship the sun.
You have no idea what a sun god is right? You seem to believe being a sun god means jesus issome kind of pokemon with Solar based attacks. His fucking birthday is the 25th of december.

Superman is a Sun god. And jesus was a sun god too, this whole conversation was started by americans that don't understand that superman isnt jesus in the movie is just Another Sun god.

>>82807639
Because it comes at the loss of what needs to be in the film

>>82812547
He doesn't need to believe in jesus to use jesus imagery. I don't know what's so hard to understand about this anon but we can study and understand without having to be religious.

>>82807487
First post best post

>>82812392
>Because he thinks it's really DEEP to use religious themes.

He doesnt, he uses the iconography to give context to some actions, and to elevate the characters to titanic levels, he does the same with batman, is not about being deep, just like Morrison's Supergods this is about making a big difference between action heroes like rambo and superheroes. You can dislike it all you want, and i can say that Snyder failed in his intention but pretending to be a retard and thinking it was made to be faux-deep just makes you look stupid.

>>82809736
I don't think that works largely because it's only certain Suns and in some story's some Suns even weaken him

>>82809803
Except that's not the movie we got at all

>>82812626
It's not about understand who Jesus is or what Jesus is to religion. It's about Snyder.

Why would Snyder paint Superman as Jesus instead of a generic entity relating to the sun. Why put Superman in a Christian church? Why use angelic imagery in BvS? Why blatantly refer to God and the devil?

If Snyder isn't Christian himself, if he doesn't believe that Jesus is a savior, then why not say that Superman is a savior instead of attempting to say Superman is like Jesus who is a savior when he himself does not believe Jesus is a savior.

It then changes the meaning of the symbolism and the comparison. Snyder is saying Superman is like Jesus who is not a savior.

>>82810504
>resurrection
Could make the argument that's a sun thing I guess but it's tenuous
>being associated with light
This is a lot less tenuous but it needs more backing it up to mean anything
>crosses are solar symbols
Since fucking when

>>82812735
>why put Superman in a Christian church
Because Superman was raised Christian.

>>82812677
What you just described was literally "DEEP" how Schneider would describe it. Congratulations on using more than one word.

>>82807369
>Christian imagery=deep for plebs
Also, Freud and Jungian shit.

Didn't Evangelion teach us all that?

>>82810504
Christmas is a pagan and commercial holiday. Not really sure what Easter's deal is, the fuck do rabbits shitting out chocolate eggs have to do with zombies?

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>>82810794
>DC doesent have iconic imagry of its own

>>82812791
I always found this kinda silly, even if it's perfectly logical

Superman's own existence completely contradicts Christianity but he looks to it for guidance sometimes

>>82812735
>why would Synder paint Superman as jesus
He didn't, he just used messianic symbolism to paint Superman as a savior.

>>82812825
Easter is something of a co-opting of various fertility festivals. It's why it takes place in the spring, and why its signature characteristics are rabbits (an animal known for breeding a lot) and eggs (the embodiment of new life).

>>82811455
Not to mention
>inserts and then kills in a few seconds a popular character the director does not like just so they could say he was in it.

>>82812883
refer to >>82812862

When I've explained to people that one of my biggest problems with MoS was the heavy-handed Jesus references, they've responded with "What Jesus references???"

Are people really that dense? The stained glass behind him as he is lamenting his doubts is literally an image of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Sometimes I think my English degree is a curse because I can't ignore painfully obvious cliches anymore.

>>82811455
Wasn't Snyder raised by the owner of a creationist museum?

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>>82812915
well he is right, it is meant to paint him as like 5th world jesus/king arthur, who are the major hero archtypes in human history. Its supposed to represent how we cant help BUT project hero imagery onto superman due to all of our cultural baggage, and he lives up to that expectation to the very end

>>82811528
Jesus fuck I'm glad I grew out of my edgy athiest stage

Thing is I was a child what's your excuse

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>>82812741
>Since fucking when

Since 10,000 BC at least.

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>>82812932
>Zachary, why didn't you join the family business?

>>82812932
Christian scientists

>>82807487
So just like how it was with Evangelion?

>>82812576
I want to say that's a good point but knowing synder that was probably unintentional

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>>82812980

>>82811578
>Christians celebrate the winter solstice
>Christians aped a celebration for 300 years before they came into contact with a culture that actually celebrated it.
>Still believing Zeitgeist nonsense

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For the record Superman is both Moses AND Jesus. He is moses in that he is sent from his dying home in a little cradle, raised by the local population of the new world, makes enemies with Pharaoh Luthor, finds a lover and a people to lead among the new people. Also he was made by two jews. But he is also Jesus in that he has a heavenly father from above that sent him for a greater mission, he is associated with the sun, and he was resurrected. The whole point of superman is that he is the next step in that hero archtype that we have seen through history, in moses, in jesus, in king arthur, and now superman.

>>82813040
Pine trees,snowflakes, bright warm fires, feasting like fuck, a fat man in a red suit soaring across the sky in a chariot have nothing to do with Odin's Wild Hunt and everything to do with some fuck born in the mid-east in September.

>>82807369
Snyder went to the Evangelian school of Semi-Religious Stuff = Deeeeeeep

>>82812892
The sad part is that the plebs in this board will believe the stuff in that post is pure autism or people reading things that are not there

>>82812741
I'm actually not trying to insult you, but you may want to learn more about it. It's pretty interesting and you will understand creators as differents as Millar, Snyder, and Morrison. And why the "superheroes = modern gods" isnt 2deep4U delutions but something that you can clearly see.

>It was not until Christianity began to become like sun worship (or, as some prefer, sun worship was Christianized), that the cross image came to be thought of as a Christian symbol. It was in 431 A.D. that crosses in churches and chambers were introduced, while the use of crosses on steeples did not come until about 586 A.D. In the sixth century, the crucifix image was sanctioned by the church of Rome. It was not until the second Council at Ephesus that private homes were required to possess a cross.

>>82807639
I never had a problem with Christian imagery or symbolism in films, despite not being Christian. In fact, most of my favorite films have Christian symbolism, such as The Shawshank Redemption, The Truman Show, and the Matrix, but the problem with Synder is that he does it terribly in ever sense of the word. His directing style in particular just seems too unrealistic, like those exaggerated art themes and poses you see in old paintings, despite his intention of making Superheroes more gritty.

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>>82813003

Yeah but Eva was actually ment to be religious

With tons of things pointing to Christianity

>>82813132
i know anon, but whatcha gunna do. I ain't saying its the deepest thing in the world, but it does a lot more than any Marvel movie, and even if the pacing wasn't perfect, I really enjoyed a superhero movie that engaged me on a different level.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

>>82811813
That was back when Jews were cool. Now they've lost their way (just like in the Bible multiple times).

Superman is a regular guy in these films all the jesus stuff is the way people see him. He needs Lois and his parents to tell him what to do most of the time

>>82812874
The prometheus bit is pretty fucked up. Lex is both prometheus and Frankenstein.(let's remember the tittle of that book shall we?) and lex talks about prometheus in the party. He also creates his own Creature, his Adam: doomsday.

>>82813192
I don't believe is deep either, is pretty much highschool knowledge, it's a very rich movie thematically speaking. But i guess that if you have no idea what moby dick is you would go "OMG jesus reference so cringey"

>>82813268
He is both. He is a god in the sense of his role (batman is too), but as a character he is just a normal guy that hates being worshipped.

>>82807639
Back... When?

>>82813458
yeah, i guess thats a better way of putting it, it uses references from across the board to tell its story and elaborate on its themes, like comics do so often. Not mentioned in the pics is how Superman's funeral mirrored FDR's and The Unknown Soldier's funerals (both superman and U.S. dying in a senseless battle) And how the last "kill" Batman has is KGBeast (which was the last canonical kill for Batman in the comics before Flashpoint).

>>82813268
>all the jesus stuff is the way people see him.
Then why does the Jesus stuff persist even when he's in space with nobody around except him? Why do power lines suddenly pop up in the shape of crosses when he dies?

You can't explain it as an in universe perception when most of the symbolism isn't done by characters but by the camera. That's not how the people in the story see him. That's how Snyder sees him.

I love how these threads simultaneously go "You need to judge Snyder movies on their own merits!" and then also go "Here's the list of comics, movies, and books that you need to read before you can understand the kinographic symbolism and how deep it is!"

Pick ONE you idiots. Waffling just proves how bullshit it is.

>>82813582
Honestly the symbolism is the space scene is so minute and almost non-existent that I don't know why you even bother bringing it up.

>>82807369
Snyder is a dumb hack who values the mythology and iconic status of characters over their actually personalities or motives.

Is Excalibur a good film? I never saw it but I did see Zardoz

>>82813073
That whole "sent for a greater mission" is really a Donner movie invention. (Which is ironic since we're supposed to deride that as shallow campy bullshit now).

The great purpose that Jor-El actually sends Clark out into the world for is "Not get blown up with the rest of us". It's a desperate act to insure his son's survival, not a noble offering to mankind or the start of a divine mission.

>>82813678
yeah but im just talking about his current incarnation, the jesus stuff slowly built up over the years and accumulated with donner

>>82813582
It's how fanboys see him as well

>>82813640
Address instead of deflect.

The movies do that shit all the time. Even down to his age being a specific choice in order to further the parallels. The interpretation that he's only shown to be Jesus because people are putting that on his shoulders just doesn't work because the camera and narrative both love doing it regardless of that context. So it's gotta be something else.

>>82813696
I'm a fanboy. I don't see him that way.
This is on Snyder. Call a spade a spade.

>>82813693
What "current incarnation" is this? Snyder's? Because were I not on my mobile I could easily post a Modern Superman that flat out tells an audience "Don't call me a god. I'm just a guy"

>>82813134
>favorite films such as The Shawshank Redemption, The Truman Show, and the Matrix
>The Shawshank Redemption, The Truman Show, and the Matrix
>All that Plebian taste
Why does /co/'s terrible taste in films match their terrible taste in comics? Your favorite films are all lowest-common denominator mainstream garbage. Bet you like Pulp Fiction, too, faggot.

>>82813750
>don't call me a god, I'm just a guy
A theme that was heavily apparent in BvS.

>>82813750
well so were jesus and moses at their time, and even king arthur (before he was king). thats the entire point of these hero types, they are just normal guys at heart that want to do good. And as far as current incarnation, I'm talking about how he is now currently perceived in the zeitgeist. Sure you could find a specific example that goes against it, but I feel that would be pedantic.

>>82813756
Being contrarian doesn't make you look smarter, anon.

>>82813750
What's your ideal image of superman? It's a references for the audience and their preconceived ideas of him it might not be jesus but you do have your own ideas of what he should be like

>>82813716
He's not shown to be jesus, he's shown to be a savior. Synder used the imagery of jesus to get that across but BvS shows us that to be considered as an God is something Clark is uncomfortable with.

>>82813790
So long as Clark doesn't have to actually say it. And provided we ignore the fact that the camera and director are going to force the metaphor despite the character's protests.

>>82813792
>I'm talking about how he is now currently perceived in the zeitgeist.
With all due respect I don't think you speak for enough people or know what they want in order to make that call.
Frankly, if Snyder is giving us Super Jesus and that's what the voice of the people actually perceives, then why do so many people hate it?

>>82813280
>(let's remember the tittle of that book shall we?)

>Frankenstein; or, The Modern Lex Luthor

Of course! It's so obvious in retrospect!

>>82813889
what, im not saying people want that or not, and im not saying he is super jesus. He is a normal guy with extraordinary gifts that wants to do good, JUST LIKE JESUS AND MOSES AND ARTHUR were before they became the widely known archtypes. Superman is killed and resurrected, he leads a foreign people against Pharoh Luthor, he has a heavenly father figure from above, he leads his knights of the justice league, etc. People can't help but project the hero mantel on to him, just like they did with jesus, moses, and arthur when they got widely known.

>>82813582
That's how WE see him, he is still a boy from Kansas, he is a boy from kansas when he is with lois. Superman as a symbol a sun god, as a person he is just a guy. The whole theme of MoS was about "what if an individual does something different than what society expect from him" BvS is an exploration of that themes, Some people want to believe he is a god, others an alien overlord, others a savior. His role is defined by him existing, but his path is his to choose.

>>82813889
Show, don't tell anon
>Clark looks extremely comfortable when people in mexico starts acting like they just saw the Virgin mary on his cape.

>>82813960
>uncomfortably

>>82813637
Who says either of these things?

The consensus is that the Hack and his works are universally garbage.

>>82813855
To me, Superman is just a really effective Fireman or EMT. Maybe even just a volunteer one. He's a blue collar guy out there to save as many lives as he can. The kind of guy that Springsteen writes songs about and Michael Bay jacks off to.

The ideal image Superman, essentially, has to pass the "would have a beer with" test.

Morrison has it right. Clark is a man that loves his parents, has a 9 to 5 job, pines for the hot chick in the cubicle across his, and plays with his dog. The fact that his parents found hi in a rocket ship and his dog also wears a cape and can actually catch the cars he chases should be irrelevant.

>>82813945
But that's wrong, man. Jesus flat out knew and accepted his purpose as early as 13. One moment of doubt doesn't negate that. He always knew and generally always accepted that he wasn't just a normal guy.

Moreover, Jesus and Moses, and yeah even Arthur to an extent, were social figures. So the detached savior metaphor doesn't apply. It's just poorly conceived.

>>82813458
>>82813540

It's not rich in anything at all. It makes the classic mistake of someone trying to add depth but not knowing how: tossing out a blizzard of surface-level references to famous things, as if the mere act of referencing itself creates depth.

It's the Family Guy approach to film-making.

>>82813040
>winter solstice
>being something only the norse did
>not something in common for all the indo-european peoples

>>82813957
>That's how WE see him,
Is contradicted by
>he is still a boy from Kansas, he is a boy from kansas when he is with lois.

If you can type out the second half of that sentence in good faith than the first half isn't true. If you can see he's a boy from Kansas then no, you AREN'T seeing him as a Jesus figure and the parallels drawn are either ineffective or pointless.

>>82813960
A god that doesn't speak to his people is a shit god, and a man that can't even raise his voice against his own mistreatment isn't much of a man.

>>82814030
what do you even mean, Superman accepted he had powers and shit too, but they were still just normal guys trying to do good. Jesus didnt tell people to fucking praise him as a god, thats something people chose to do, and he was all against that shit. And guess what, Jesus, Moses and King Arthur are ALL savior figures. No one is saying detached, they just all share story beats, motivation, character arcs, and positions in society. They have incredible gifts from above, they have at least some level of reluctance, then they embrace their gifts and try to do as much good as possible while negating people worshiping them.

>>82813983
People defending this shit, like for example whatever braintrust made >>82812989

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>>82813756
/co/ likes the most mainstream comics there are, there's barely any indie threads. Most of them are plebs that only watch MCU movies at the cinema.

>>82813889
>So long as Clark doesn't have to actually say it.
This is the problem i have, WHY does he has to say it? it's clear? So many people say "why isnt he smiling? or saying "Estais bien muchacho?", But the movie show us that he wants to do good, but he doesnt like the divinity people think he has. Martha talks about that with him. It's way better than himtelling lois "i don't like when people think i'm god".
>>82813902
Kek

>>82814099
>5 shots from mostly famous movies
>REQUIRED READING TO UNDERSTAND

holy shit, even if you didnt get ANY of the references, it is plenty easy to understand

>>82814095
>thats something people chose to do, and he was all against that shit.
>and he was against all that shit.
...Bro. No. Him NOT being against that shit is literally why he gets killed.

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I want /tv/ to go.

>>82814151
he was killed because people were praising him and he was doing good for them, but he did try to tell people that his dad was god not him.

>>82814108
>This is the problem i have, WHY does he has to say it? it's clear?
Okay let me give you a metaphor.
R.Kelly pisses on two girls. One girl frowns at being pissed on. The other girl moves out the way of the piss stream. Which one REALLY didn't want to get pissed on?

>>82814071
It's not mistreatment that Superman is going through mistreatment you fucking autist, it's the fact that he can't control how people react to him.

>>82814185
Well both sound like they got sexually assaulted.

>>82814135
I'm not saying the shit was indecipherable, I'm just pointing out the irony that if you compare it to other successful genre films then it's bad and critics are shills and brainwashed for doing so but if you go "LOOK. PULP FICTION REFERENCE" then suddenly the movie is supposedly deep and meaningful.

It's not. It's just esoteric and referential. It's a fucking Family Guy episode; references and over the top violene.

>>82814254
why do you choose to focus on that particular thing but not any of the OTHER points the pictures make? Like ignoring all outside imagery, the internal mirroring of Zod killing Jor El and then Zod killing Kal El and of the two funerals mirroring each other are pretty great and add a lot of depth.

>>82814183
That is literally not the case, man. I'm talking about the Sanhedrin trial of Jesus where the priests ask him "Are you of divine lineage" and he responds "I Am". As in "I am that I am". Which is serious fucking business in the faith.

I like that bvs had an actual entertaining fight scene with that warehouse part

>>82814317
yeah he knows he is the son of god, but he isnt going around like a fucking god demanding followers and shit, he is just doing good things. The point is in when Luthor says you can't be all good v all powerful, Superman, Jesus, Moses, and Arthur all chose to be all good instead of all powerful (though moses couldn't get that right perfectly), and they all died because of that, and they all came back after the fact. Idk why you are trying to fight superman being the next step in the heroic savior archtype

>>82814037
>references
They are not references, and you still don't understand that, the Übermensch arc in bruce explains his reaction to superman, He is the Übermensch, and then watching god fight zod in the sky he is broken. He doesnt regain faith in god at the end of the movie he regain trust in humanity and himself. You call it references since you fail to see how they give CONTEXT and more information. they give exposure to the motivations, they tell a story. You can complain all you want, but the same people that complains about references are the ones that don't get why lex developed doomsday when just by hearing the words "phometeus" and watching the electricity wake up doomsday you should understand everything there is to know about lex.

>>82814046
>indo-european
That's a word that is too big for him.

>>82814301
First because I picked one image out of that long spew at random. Second, because doing a call back to an earlier scene in your continuity isn't deep. Naruto does it all the goddamn time. Third, because it's hamfisted as fuck and the total lack of subtlety comes off more condescending than thought provoking. Screaming kino memes at it just reeks of desperation.

>>82814380
It does when it thematically connects

>>82814362
See you're overlooking again the important distinction that all the supposed bases in this "heroic" tradition (which by the way isn't een a good nomenclature. savior figure tradition might be better fitting; there are distinct differences between classical heroes and savior figures) is the abiity to lead.

Moses had his followers Jesus had his followers, Arthur had his knights. Who does Superman have? He isn't even allowed to be the one to lead the Justice League. That's going to be Batman's job. You're just trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

>>82814380
well kino is used ironically, but maybe your autism doesnt let you understand that. No one in their right mind would say that seriously. And they werent spewed at random, but you just chose a strawman to make your argument. It isn't just referencing an earlier scene, they are part of the cyclical nature of the plot. Zod killed Jor-El, eventually leading to his death at the hands of Kal-El. Kal-El kills Zod, leading to Zod's resurrection and Kal-El's death. This is Superman paying for his mistake, this cements the idea of the no kill code, because it will always come back to haunt you eventually. For the funerals it was about how the first one was part of Batman's dream, the funeral that created Batman, and since the dream is "corrupting" this memory it shows that the idea of Batman has been corrupted by paranoia. Then the funeral at the end is bringing Batman back from that corruption, renewing the crusade.

>>82814254
That's not about depth, is about pop art frames and shit. Something Snyder loves to do, i know the people that loved Civil War loves stuff that looks like a tv show, but c'mon, Those are not about Snyder being deep or tech savy, it's just suppose to show what kind of influences he has on a visual level. He loves german stuff too.

>>82814413
Does what? Reek of desperation?
Well yeah that's why I said it does.

>>82814443
read Joseph Campbell or the Jungian archetypes you fucking idiot

and guess what, Superman had plenty of followers if you WATCHED THE MOVIE. Remember that scene of all the people reaching out to Superman during the day of the dead scene? He also gained Wonder Woman and Batman by the end, just like how King Arthur's death is Lancelot's rise to action.

>>82814362
That's my problem with Snyder's Superman

It feels like Clark feels very weary about saving people, despite the appeal of the Messiah being a divine person of infinite love who wants to help everyone amidst of a cruel world

And in BvS, I just can't get why Clark decided to sacrifice himself to Doomsday in the end since he comes off as a distant alien throughout most of the movie

>>82814529
It's not that Clark is weary of saving people as so much he's concerned about how people interprets his actions.

>>82814476
>No one in their right mind would say that seriously.
No one in their right mind would attribute so much narrative weight and forethought to Snyder but here we are.

>And they werent spewed at random, but you just chose a strawman to make your argument.
I said *I* picked something at random. Fuck if you can't even read a single post right how am I supposed to believe you've somehow unveiled a secret message in a 3 hour movie?

And by the way, it's not a strawman. How, exactly, does a pulp fiction reference tie into the JesusMosesArthur shit? It's just there.

>this cements the idea of the no kill code,
It's too early to make that call because we haven't actually gotten a movie with said code intact yet.

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>>82814529
what do you mean, he has no hesitation on saving people. Never does he ever hesitate to save a person.

pic related is a list of all the times he has saved people since MoS, he fucking shifted tectonic plates to stop an earthquake and stopped a super virus. You literally made up something to complain about.


And he didnt just decided to sacrifice himself to doomsday, he just happened to die in the process of killing him.

>>82814561
I guess it's the courtroom bombing that made me misinterpret it

Was Clark supposed to be sad, or indifferent?

I legit got lost there

>>82814586
well Superman has never really had a no kill code strictly, he has killed plenty of crazy alien beings. But it cements the idea of what Clark did in MoS being the wrong thing because it led to his death.

And the rest of your post is just full of strawmen not even worth actually engaging with. Im going to bed babycakes

>>82814510
That's not what I meant by followers and you damn well...actually I doubt you know it so I will spoonfeed it to you.

Moses gives out ten commandments. Jesus gives sermons on the mount. Arthur confers with his men at the round table. They all TALK to their disciples. Clark doesn't, because Snyder thinks being a scowling mute is the height of emotional resonance and people talking in costume is silly.

>>82814443
>He isn't even allowed to be the one to lead the Justice League. That's going to be Batman's job.

Neither batman nor superman were founding members of the league. And superman will be back to lead the league. Snyder will focus on the WORLD WITHOUT SUPERMAN and show how wrong that is.

They will face REAL god and show the difference between an eartly pantheon and real gods. You just want to hold to the idea that superman is mistreated when the whole movie was about him. The real world is unfair to superman, and that reflects on movie superman.

>>82814637
well you know that Arthur gives that talk, AFTER returning from heaven. This is obviously just one step in Superman's arc, let the man come back before making such a snap judgement. And what else could you possibly mean by followers, I addressed the idea of both public followers (like moses had) and personal followers (like jesus and arthur)

>>82814605
He was angry with himself he should have noticed the bomb

>>82814660
>Neither batman nor superman were founding members of the league.
How do you interpret the "Batman traveling the world gathering the seven samurai" thing? I am legit curious as to how you're explaining that away

I could accuse you of trying too hard to hold onto the idea that Snyder actually really likes and understands the character and wasn't just trying to get him out of the way ASAP so that he could do the much "cooler" Batman instead.

>>82814605
He's dejected because he thinks that the guy was a suicide bomber.

>>82807369

I think it's a trick to make the film's seem deep.

It's also an extension of what DC has been trying for years.

>>82814671
>This is obviously just one step in Superman's arc, let the man come back before making such a snap judgement.
It's been two goddamn movies. Shit or get off the pot. Last movie, you guys kept insisting we'd get that Superman in THIS movie. Now it's the next one.

In light of that why should I believe you won't be pulling this exact same "wait and see" thing after Justice League comes and goes?

>>82807689

Not really, Moses actually saved people.

>>82814753
what do you mean, this has been superman, he has been saving people all over the place
refer to>>82814588


so this part was about him learning from the mistake of MoS (killing Zod) and getting prepared to no longer just be a hero, but a leader too

>>82814605
>Was Clark supposed to be sad, or indifferent?
>I legit got lost there

So you are a retard? Yeah he was so indiferent that he collapsed and went to the north pole so he could recover from the emotional impact and guilt. but sure, he didnt care.

>>82814588
>superman shift tectonic plate

Holy shit i missed that

>>82813132
Hm interesting

>>82814783
look at >>82814588

>>82807369

It's kind of clear that people are more offended by just the idea of christian imagery than the actual imagery.

The point of BvS is that Superman isn't God. He's just a man. It's only in death that he becomes something more.

>>82807778
>There was a review of the film "Kongfu Hustle", where the reviewer complained that the hero spared the life of the villain because "the villain is the devil, and you are suppose to kill the devil."

He was Buddha more than anything.

>>82814842
i think its a little bit more that only once he choose all good over being all powerful can he then be all powerful

>>82814529
>It feels like Clark feels very weary about saving people, despite the appeal of the Messiah being a divine person of infinite love who wants to help everyone amidst of a cruel world

Correct, Superman is just a man.

>>82814703
>>82814738
>>82814789

Oh right, I forgot the weird scene with Pa Kent.

I wish it was better expressed tough

I'm looking forward to the fourth world stuff

>>82814788
>what do you mean, this has been superman, he has been saving people all over the place
...The fuck? I'm not talking about him saving people. I mean a Superman with enough social skills that he can hold a conversation with someone other than Lois or maybe crack a smile more than once a movie.

Post Man of Steel the argument was he was just finding himself and he'd get better at not being a mopey autist that's too detached from humanity for his or anyone's good in the next movie. BvS was that movie.

Now again I'm told the same thing, with the added wrinkle of "somehow RISING FROM THE DEAD will make Clark act more like a normal human being, not less", and that shit doesn't even make sense on paper.

>>82814927
so basically "not muh superman." How often do you think Superman actually talks to those people he saves? Even in the original Donner flick he didn't talk to really anyone outside of Lois. Read something like Byrne's run, Superman saves people and really isn't that social. He mostly talks to other super people, or people essential to the plot, which superman does in the movie. But keep moving those goal posts man.

>>82814927
Clark doesn't need to change for us, we need to change for him.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EveryoneIsJesusInPurgatory

>>82811063

Because he knows it's religious but doesn't know enough to know what it means.

>>82814719
With Wondy involved i have almost zero doubts they will try to make it similar to the Argo and as soon as superman is back they will go full new Camelot.

>>82811203

That sounds pretty accurate.

>>82814980
Yup, there we are. Whenever there's not a leg to stand on, just go "NOT MUH SUPERMAN".
Who's Superman is this then? Why's it failing?
Why isn't this reinvention breaking all the records ever? Must be a conspiracy! The masses must be brainwashed! That's the only explanation!

All this thread seems to prove is that Snyder literally is 2DEEP4U.

>>82815041
way to strawpost man, you literally said superman wasnt acting how you wanted him to act. No one said this was an amazing re-invention, cause it isn't, its pretty inline with most comic tellings of "Superman's early years"

>>82811203
I can buy this because he seems to have missed the memo that Jesus was about the message more than the miracles. He only fed the five thousand because people will stick around for a seminar if you offer them a free lunch.

>>82813003
>So just like how it was with Evangelion?
Evangelion genuinely has a incredibly deep and rich mythology, such just had little to do with the religious imagery.

>>82807369
because it's overdone and reaching for the low hanging fruit.

>>82807778
>Because he doesn't like superheroes
You have absolutely no fucking evidence to support this.
He prefers more badass & hardcore Superheroes, that doesn't mean he doesn't like them in general.

>>82807487

Him and Joss Whedon should form a club.

>>82815048
But he really didn't have to put in the "Lois investigates stuff" plot line

It's okay to be deep. But it's not okay to sacrifice coherency for visuals

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>>82815086
>Evangelion genuinely has a incredibly deep and rich mythology

>>82815154
He didn't have to but he did and I thank him for that. Lois lane is supposed to be a damn fine investigator journalist and apparently Synder agrees.

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The imagery makes for all of 2 minutes of a 140 minute movie.
This obsessive misinterpretation with 1 scene & 1 other shot from the film as being some kind of major technical flaw with the full product is one of the most fucking insane things I have ever encountered in relation to any film I know of.

>>82814980
He doesent nesecarily have to speak to those he saves he can make speches instead just say fucking something

>>82815072
>its pretty inline with most comic tellings of "Superman's early years"
Not really. And that's mostly a fault of Snyder mixing too many different stories together to make his Frankenstein's monster. Man of Steel, Earth One, and Birthright mix about as well as oil and water.
That Byrne run you're saying I should read? It had other means of further connecting Clark to humanity. That was the entire point of the Birthing Matrix, remember? Not to mention the copious time spent on Clark's home life and the fact that he's allowed human friends like Peter Ross and Lana Lang.
Speaking of which, remind me does Byrne do the whole "On my planet it means hope" thing? Because I seem to remember that differently in the comics.

But sure, keep on going NUT MUH ABLOO BLOO BLOO. Much easier than to admit that maybe Snyder dropped the goddamn ball.

>>82812576
Holy shit is it possible did synder auctualy put something deep in one of his movies

>>82815126
Isn't the quote going around saying that he likes stuff like Heavy Metal? Because that's fine and all but it ain't superheroes.

And Watchmen? That's an intentional deconstruction. Hell, even TDKR flat out has Batman still sticking vaguely to the no killing.

>>82815197
Its true, the mythology of the angels is fucking phenomenal sci-fi, that they explored well, could have give a bit more clarity on some things but at the same time, its didn't overexpose itself.

>>82815308
He got into comic through heavy metal and got into Superheroes through Watchman.

>>82815145
Whedon actually has some depth in him.
Not from any of his TV or MCU stuff, but Cabin in the Woods was a pretty neat examination of the horror genre.

Although I guess that might have been more Goddard though.

>>82815197
I dunno man he might be right. All that red moon progenitor alien lore and now there's shit about cyclical timelines so everything is canon?

There's some richness there and half of it doesn't even get translated.

>>82815308
>Isn't the quote going around saying that he likes stuff like Heavy Metal? Because that's fine and all but it ain't superheroes.
Liking something other then one thing doesn't mean you don't like that one thing also.
>>82815308
>And Watchmen? That's an intentional deconstruction.
Which is universally agreed to be the greatest comic book ever written, with incredibly well written characters, what does that have to do with liking superheroes or not.
>Hell, even TDKR flat out has Batman still sticking vaguely to the no killing.
No liking the no kill rule doesn't mean he dislikes Superheroes.

>>82815233
Is the imagery important in this film or not? You can't state or ignore it's importance to a product from a visual medium and say "it's just one tiny thing what does it matter?" but only to the dissenting side.

>>82815331
>>82815380
I wouldnt say that quantifies its depth, but there can be a lot to it.

>>82813003
Guys, what if...
What if Zack Snyder directed an Evangelion movie?

>>82815408
Its not important.
That does not equal it being bad.

And some would say it adds to the sense of scope and grandness of the events.

>>82815439
Everyone would be Jesus.

>>82815338
>and got into Superheroes through Watchman.
There's nothing wrong with being introduced to a genre through a deconstruction of that genre, but by no means should you consider it an accurate representation of said genre, much less a codifier of said genre.

For example, I was introduced to mecha anime by Evangelion, but I have no reasonable expectation that every super robot anime be like it, or be made similar to it, much less a codifier like Mazinger Z.

In that same vein, it's great if you like Watchmen. But Batman isn't Rorschach or Nite Owl. Superman isn't Doctor Manhattan. Those are intentional cases where the archetypes were broken down and reexamined in a different light. Doing that to copies is fine, less so the originals.

>>82815398
Being well written and acclaimed does not mean everything needs to be a genre deconstruction. Because if everything is, then you don't HAVE a genre anymore.

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>>82815331
>>82815380
>>82815086

>>82815506
This
It would be like expecting the average magical girl show to be like madoka (which was more a subversion then a deconstruction but it still applys)

>>82815506
>but by no means should you consider it an accurate representation of said genre
>Characters having flaws & depth shouldn't be considered a accurate representation of the superhero genre...
Fuck you dude.
>>82815531
>does not mean everything needs to be a genre deconstruction
Sure, but we haven't gotten a Superman deconstruction on film before & MOS/BVS aren't really even that, they are just a more realistic flawed Superman.

>>82815535
Like I said, the imagery has nothing to with the depth, its deep because its extremely well written with fully fleshed out characters and mythos.

>>82815506
But there's zero evidence that Symder consider Watchman to be the codifer for Superheroes. Saying so is pure disinformation.

>>82815535
You know what we're talking about s got nothing to do with the etymology or kabbalic symbolism right?

We're talking about the shit like how the angels aren't actually divine so yeah the christianity stuff is bullshit and there as window dressing, but they ARE is still equally cool; divergent paths of evolution from a super advanced alien progenitor race that "seeds" planets.

>>82815608
Having well written characters and a realized world doesnt make something deep anon, it just means it's well constructed.

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>>82812936
>The movie begins with Birth (It took me to a lie; a beautiful lie)
>Ends with death

It's like Snyder was trying to make the movie a sentient being.

>>82815460
It wouldn't equal good or bad, but you seem to be saying it can only be good, but at the same time unimportant, but at the same time really great. Anons even said it adds context, character motivation, and even characterization. Like many films do. It comes down to whether or not you liked any of it I don't get why you're pointing this to one side of this debate considering you end down playing the other half.

>>82815585
You don't actually know what a deconstruction is, do you. Just wanna say "fuck me". Alright. Sure bro.
"Realistic and flawed" isn't even the problem. But you're clearly one of those guys that dismisses any counterpoints and criticism as "you just want a boring mary sue that never fails".

>>82815611
Okay, just so we're clear
Watchmen = Deconstruction
Superman = Codifier
You do get that, right?

>>82815552
The big irony is that I was going to say "It'd be like being called to create a Sailor Moon movie and giving audiences Madoka instead" but then I remembered that Sailor Moon actually kind of deconstructed itself across series so I'd have go go back even further to find an apt codifier for the genre.

>>82815631
Fine then that is what Evangelion is.
Not being deep doesn't equal not being good.

>>82815687
Sure and you do get that baselessy assuming that Synder thinks all cape fiction should be like Watchman doesn't actually make it true?

>>82815759
I never claimed it does, just that it wasnt deep.

>>82815659
I never said it was good or great or even not bad, I'm saying that its extremely insignificant to the general film so listing it as why MOS is a bad film is absurd is what I am saying.

>>82815773
I can see where he's drawing parallels, if that's what you mean. Focusing on Clark's alienation and the continued exclusion of the "human element" as we might call it, turns him into a Doctor Manhattan clone pretty damn quick. Is that really a comparison you can't see?

>>82815687
You can read Watchmen as just a extremely well written and fleshed out Superhero tale and not give a rats ass about how it supposedly tears down the genre.

>>82815687
there's no evidence AT ALL that Synder thinks watchman is the genre codifier. Like not a fucking scrap that implies Synder thinks that, you're just spreading disinformation.

>>82815797
I think the argument is that it can't be insignificant and thus absurd to judge the movie on the merits of its imagery when the only meaning in said movie is constantly said to be in the imagery. That's trying to have your cake and eat it too.

But then to defend the movie in the first place requires some significant cognitive dissonance so I can see why such logic is cyclical in nature.

>>82815817
>Focusing on Clark's alienation and the continued exclusion of the "human element" as we might call it, turns him into a Doctor Manhattan clone pretty damn quick.
No not really, MOS Clark still strongly cares about helping people regardless of his need to distance himself from humanity, Dr Manhattan was more or less going thru the motions, caring little about anything one way or another.

>>82815817
>Synder Supes is Manhatten clone
But he wasn't. Have you ever actually read Watchman dude or do you just shitpost about it?

>>82815838
It's well written certainly but I think without the context of the genre a lot of the story loses its impact.

>>82815853
Dude I'm not saying that. climb down out of your own ass and actually read. SUPERMAN IS THE CODIFIER.

>>82815154
>But he really didn't have to put in the "Lois investigates stuff" plot line

The fact that Snyder actually bothers to let a supporting female character have some relevance in the story beyond who she's dating is a good thing.

>>82815618
anon these are /tv/ memers, don't use too many big words around them.

>>82815860
>when the only meaning in said movie is constantly said to be in the imagery.
Who said its meant to have meaning?
Its a fucking Superman movie focusing on the origin and then a Alien Invasion, its not that complicated.
>>82815860
>But then to defend the movie in the first place requires some significant cognitive dissonance
How is that?
I wanted a Superman movie with the tone of Supreme Power & a focus on his Sci-fi elements, MOS is 90% everything I wanted out of a Superman reboot.

>>82815797
as other anons pointed out for BOTH films, the imagery has a connection with the story and the characters. Some stated it as a positive or something significant that can be discussed. Which we have done. Listing it as a positive when it's actually extremely insignificant, renders the connection insignificant, and much of characterization, gravitas, grandness and scope insignificant as well.

>>82815868
>>82815890
The impact is external rather than internal in Clark's case but the parallel and general concept of a superpowered being becoming separated from the greater social aspect of humanity due to the gulf his powers creates is present in both characters. Manhattan goes cold and detaches himself, Clark goes mopey and is forcibly detached. In BOTH stories, the underlying deconstructive concept of "a person with superpowers would cease to be a social being because of said powers generating an alienating effect" is consistent and omnipresent.

That's literally what you guys keep going on and on about with the whole 'Clark is sad because people are treating him like a god" thing. Don't try backtracking on it now. And before you try and claim otherwise. No. Clark being sad about it doesn't actually change or stop the fact that it's happening, and continues to happen, well after his death. Especially since never puts any effort into stopping it.

>>82815891
>I'm not saying that
But you totally are.

>>82807369
Snyder's upbringing was by Christian Scientists. The people who think that disease can be solved through prayer. When Snyder puts the amount of religious imagery he does in MoS and BvS, he probably thinks he's showing restraint. Jesus is probably just his point of reference to seeing superman, to the point he can't interpret the character without it.

>>82815204
>>82815932
> Lois lane is supposed to be a damn fine investigator journalist and apparently Synder agrees.
> a supporting female character have some relevance in the story

You know, there's a subtle difference between being a good reporter and being Batman. Because in the comics, Batman finds out who Clark Kent is, not the other way around.

>>82815980
It's a concept in a lot of super powered fiction.
Doesn't make him a manhatten clone you fucking retard.

>>82815943
>Who said its meant to have meaning?
The entire thread? If you're just joining us you may want to catch up, friend.

>I wanted a Superman movie with the tone of Supreme Power
You know Supreme Power isn't a Superman story right? It's not even an elseworlds. It's one of those intentional deconstructive pastiches.


It'd be like if Marvel made a Sentry movie and people said that were what they wanted out of a Superman reboot. It wouldn't be. They'd want, and get Sentry.

>>82816012
>Because in the comics, Batman finds out who Clark Kent is, not the other way around.

Not really.

>>82816029
>Doesn't make him a manhatten clone you fucking retard.
Manhattan is the modern face of the concept as it applies to the genre and the one we know for a fact Snyder has direct exposure to. And given the fact that his movies are stuffed to the gills with references to everything under the sun and the kitchen sink, and that Watchmen was, and continues to be, one of his two successful and acclaimed movies, it's really kind of silly for you to claim it couldn't possibly have been an influence.

Sure, the body is covered in third degree burns, and there's evidence of smoke inhalation, and char patterns everywhere, but that doesn't mean fire was involved!

>>82815943
The hell? So you wanted a seldom smiling sad sack Superman? You wanted a Pa Kent who raised his boy to let children die? A movie that shows how useless he actually is a person, seeing as another one of his kind learned how to use all of the abilities he had 30+ years to try to even attempt to learn or even acknowledge, in under 10 minutes? I can't even insult you at this time, I lack the words to properly describe the disgust, hatred, confusion, animosity, and supreme pity that I feel for you at this moment.

>>82816056
It generally goes Batman figures out clarks identity because he always fly's back to the daily planet confronts Superman and Superman knows who he is with his x ray vision.
Batmans crazy but he's not lead mask crazy

>>82816056
Yeah, he does. Batman figures it out. And Superman has to tell Lois because she never could. And in the cartoon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5nUsa8ZLm4

>>82816127
Didn't say it wasn't an influence, just saying that he wasn't a Manhattan clone you fucking moron.

>>82807369
Because it looks cool. You have to be delusional to think the millions spent on VFX for these scenes alone aren't done effectively, even if they serve no other purpose than to do so.

>>82816207
>never could
Lois always figured clark was superman. It was about half of their interactions in the SA.

>>82816038
>You know Supreme Power isn't a Superman story right?
No but its a solid example of how to do a realistic Superman like being in a realistic environment which is what I wanted.
I don't want Hyperion's potential to take over the world, I don't want his being raised by the Military, I just want a Superman in a world that feels real and not outlandish or campy, and I want him to have a power set and not get out of jail solve everything abilities.

>>82816256
So you don't want Superman.
Or even really know what Superman is.

Like, you know a REALLY EASY way to fix one of the problems in BvS? Show Martha getting kidnapped during the mexico fire thing (or something similar). Clark can't be in two places at once he can't leave people to burn, and he does hear his mom is in trouble. Make it a real Sophie's choice moment.
That way Clark can't "do everything" but it's done in a way that has him still doing "something" rather than just being jerked around by the plot in increasingly contrived ways.

I cannot get you man. You show up in these threads all the time talking about how you wanted a scifi realistic superman that isn't perfect and all the times you do, you give examples of series that aren't even Superman. What Superman are you even talking about where he WAS that perfect campy mary sue to begin with? Donner? Because that's Pre-Crisis as fuck.

You really need more exposure to the character. There's ways to do the power set AND the characterization that aren't the shitty way Snyder's going about it.

>>82816168
>So you wanted a seldom smiling sad sack Superman?
I wanted a balance along the lines of the tone in his characterization in TAS & what we got.
I do NOT want a campy silly happy naive idiot.
>ou wanted a Pa Kent who raised his boy to let children die?
Not exactly but I did want a Pa Kent that taught Clark to see the big picture and teach Clark that the world isn't a perfect happy place and that people while worth protecting are horrible more often then not.

And restraining and hiding oneself for the greater good isn't being useless, its making a personal sacrifice.

>>82816232
Well, in smallville, I guess the kiss gave it way after 9 seasons. Not really investigate work there. Action Comics No. 484 (1978), 40 years after Superman debuted, she figured it out after Superman had amnesia and couldn't keep up the act. Doesn't really count in superman ii, since he erased her memory and she shot him to prove it. remember, that's the second superman movie and she really didn't deduce it from much more than an accident. Do you want me to continue? All star superman, nope, superman tells her.

>>82816330
>I do NOT want a campy silly happy naive idiot.
You keep saying this and I'm starting to think you don't even know what that entails.

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>>82810794
>DC doesn't really have any iconic imagery of its own
Nigger even as someone who prefers Marvel
fucking educate yourself

>>82816348
Personally I have no problem with Lois finding out. But then Snyder says Batman can't find out. But Lex can find out. But Batman can't find out for the reason that Lex never finds out. Also maybe Perry knows. We're still unclear on that.

>>82816397
Snyder is probably afraid of doing that scene because Singer already did it in Returns. And he can't figure out how to set the car on fire during it and slam it into a bunch of puppies.

>>82816330
Pffttt... Wow. Fantastic cynicism. You really nailed the 70+ years of Superman characterization and storytelling with that one.

>that people while worth protecting are horrible more often then not.

Yeah, I'm sure those kids picking on Superman deserved death. Just awful people. And all those other kids? Guilty by association. So, not testing the limits of your abilities, or heck, even learning about them enough to were you can easily control them as to not harm others is somehow worse and less of a personal sacrifice than just plain ol' not using them? Come on. Do you even hear how asinine that sounds?

>>82816398
So all in all, it was a pretty shitty, murky, unfocused, unclear narrative is what I'm getting, is that about right?

>>82814980
>not muh superman
yes, that is EXACTLY the problem

>>82816398
>Batman couldn't
Because Batman doesn't even think that the Suoerman would have a secret identity
>lex could
Because Lex is a super genius.

>>82814980
You know, even firemen and police officers ask, "are you alright?" Are you somehow trying to say that Superman, fucking SUPER MAN, lacks the empathy and caring nature of a fucking paid government employee?

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>This is a movie for DC fans
but the Superman and Batman aren't comic accurate at all
>Not muh Supes/Bats!

>>82816489
I love shitting on Snyder but ultimately I just kind of feel bad because I actually prefer DC to Marvel and wish the movies weren't what they are. I was so excited at the prospect of a DCEU so I could finally FINALLY show my friends why Superman was my favorite comic book charatcer.

And it's all just a mess now, because thy guy they have spearheading the whole shebang is, at best, only good at music videos and thinks that school of cinematography translates into telling three hour narratives.

>>82816535
>Because Batman doesn't even think that the Suoerman would have a secret identity
That's what I'm saying man. That is literally the reason that post-Crisis Lex never finds out. Even when Lex has a super computer run facial analysis and the thing goes "100% certainty that Superman is Clark Kent", Lex throws out that verdict because he doesn't think Superman would slum it as a lame reporter.

Snyder gave Lex's myopia to Batman, plain and simple. And he couldn't even let Lex keep it as well.

>>82816562
This is a movie for DC fans that define their DC fandom not as liking DC characters, but as liking DC character deconstructions, parodies, and above all else, hating Marvel.

>>82816535
>Because Lex is a super genius.
Debatable, but alright.

>Because Batman doesn't even think that the Suoerman would have a secret identity
So even "knowing" that this crazed alien super god being whatever you call it has the capacity to wipe out all life as we know it on the planet, don't you think it would be prudent of Batman to try to, I don't know, find out ANYTHING at all about him? Like his past, where he comes from, where he rests his head at night? You know, just the basics of war/fighting/strategy. Reminds of some guy who goes by the name of "World's Greatest Something". Pretty smart cat. Tries to have a contingency plan for anything that could happen. But you know, his name escapes me right at this moment. Tell me, what does Batman do again with all of his time and money?

>>82816398
>But then Snyder says Batman can't find out. But Lex can find out. But Batman can't find out for the reason that Lex never finds out.

So? What the fuck is the problem? Lex knows the identities of all the JLA members. The story even revolves around Batman being so paranoid and scared he doesn't think straight.

>>82816329
>So you don't want Superman.
Thats like saying Nolan's Batman isn't Batman just because he isn't fighting Clayface or the demon Neron.
Thats like saying Ultimate Steve Rogers isn't a valid take on Captain America because he is more uptight then 616 Steve.
Fuck off with this notion that their is only ONE valid way to interpret or adapt a character.

>Show Martha getting kidnapped during the mexico fire thing (or something similar). Clark can't be in two places at once he can't leave people to burn, and he does hear his mom is in trouble. Make it a real Sophie's choice moment.
That would have been great.
Strongly liking something doesn't mean I don't think their is room for improvement.

>you give examples of series that aren't even Superman
Its all I have. Earth One is the closest other thing, But I strongly dislike his emo characterization in it.
I like or love everything about general Superman EXCEPT his campy tone most of the time & the fans notion that he should not fail and should be allowed to bend reality to not do so.
And the naivety. He absolutely should be a idealist, but I want him to be realist-idealist.
Hope for and strive to give the absolute best, but don't expect it.

>What Superman are you even talking about where he WAS that perfect campy mary sue to begin with? Donner? Because that's Pre-Crisis as fuck.
Its more a fandom thing, People saying he should have taken Zod out of the city, or saved people in the middle of the fight which would have been preposterous and made Zod look incompetent as fuck.
I felt him keeping Zod's attention on him and only him was the absolute right choice and doing anything else even to save specific lives would have been directly endangering them.

>>82816562
I personally thought that it was a pretty accurate portrayal of how Batman and Superman would act given those circumstances.

>Superman overcomes his bad parents and still does the right thing
>Batman becomes super edgy because there's no Superman to calm him down after the death of Robin

>>82816543
Superman doesn't get paid though. He's doing this because he wants to. Saying he doesn't care or even more outrageous that he shows a lack of empathy is retarded.

Why does no one talk bout the action scenes in bvs?

>>82816650
It's just weird to see the characterization swap.
And also I have a hard time believing that Martha's not a dead woman walking now but I suspect they'll just try and get us to all forget about that.

>>82816357
Ok... I want TAS's characterization with the world of MOS or Earth One.
THAT is what I want.

>>82816566
I know that feel man. My friends just keep laughing at me, one saying "Superman is a monster that kills, he needs to be stopped" and the others not understanding why I have such a problem with this Superman.

>>82816643
>debatable
He figured out Clark and Bruce's identity and played them both.
He's the only human who knows how to work aloen technology.
Nah it's not debatable, Lex is a super genius.

>>82816469
>Yeah, I'm sure those kids picking on Superman deserved death.
What the fuck are you talking about?
How does wanting Pa to tell Clark to expect people to be flawed and to be dicks equal saying they deserve death????????
The "Mabye" line had nothing to do with what they kids deserve or not.
It was about the big picture and the lives that would be effected if Clark is revealed.

>>82815301
>something literally on the surface of the movie
>deep

>>82816695
Yeah, that makes it even more strange when an unknown super being comes rushing at you, saves you, all the while not smiling, before or after, and then leaves without saving a word. It rubs people the wrong way and makes him come off as a weird standoffish almost pervasive asshole. To connect with people, you have to use your words. Why can't Synder have Superman figure that out?

>>82816691
But his parenting wasn't bad in anyway, they taught him life has value but the big picture can be more important at times.

>>82816686
No it's like saying Hyperion, Sentry, and Miracleman literally aren't Superman. They are actually different guys.

And again, dude, I'm telling you. As a Superman fan. Superman struggling is fine. We're even okay with him failing. One of his MOST FAMOUS post crisis stories is him confiding in a guy how he's failed recently. Failing is not, was not and never WILL be the problem people have with the Snyder movies. The problem is that Snyder refuses to let Clark TRY. Why do you need this explained to you once a week?

Having said that, and fully expecting for it to be ignored yet again because you always do, I will also say that yes, I think that if you remove his optimism (because let me be blunt, what you're defining as realism is really just cynicism) then you lose a key component to the character. Clark is, at his core, a humanist that sees the best in people. It's what sets him apart from others. It's why he thinks that an egocentric bag of dicks like Lex could have people if he just wanted to. It's why he does what he does in the first place. REMOVING that doesn't make the character better.

>>82816774
Then reword it so it doesn't make Pa Kent look like a psychopath. Give solutions. Have him say, "No, next time, save them like this." That line, right there, changes the context and meaning of his speech significantly for the better and still shows Clark that he needs to see the bigger picture. The fact you can't recognize this is very telling of the inhumane nature of your being. The fuck is wrong with you?

>>82816716
>Ok... I want TAS's characterization with the world of MOS or Earth One.
Those don't work together. Pick one.
And really that's not even even what you got. Snyder Superman has MUCH less charisma than TAS Superman. He's absolutely as angsty and anti-social as Earth One Clark just about slightly different things.

>>82816643
However you may dislike Lex's portrayal in the movie he is undoubtedly a super genius or at least intended to be one with feats to back it up.

>>82816825
Synder didn't remove his optimism though.