you don't seriously think he was right, do you? if

Neither of them were right.

He was doing what the guvment told him to, like an adult

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Team Black Panther

Tony was right, in trying to kill Bucky basically putting him out of his misery and for wanting to keep everyone in check

I think Tony was right because I'm a filthy statist, with no moral compass of my own, save for what the authorities tell me.

I think Tony was right because he was complying with the wishes of 117 sovereign nations who want to make the world not worry about what these six or seven superpowered gods among men are doing at any given time

Steve's main argument was 'BUT HE'S MY BUCKY' as if that mattered more than the authority of the United Nations

>>82672680
With the scale of the things the Avengers deal with it's inevitable that some people in high political power are going to have problems with the way they operate. They may be doing the right thing, but you can't expect a privately owned group to just be able to jump into fights in every other country whenever they want without people being upset. That sort of tension can't keep building forever and eventually they're going to be need to reign in the Avengers or deal with major international incidents. Tony's stance on the accords was preemptive; it showed that the most powerful people on Earth were willing to work with the rest of the world as opposed to doing whatever they want. It would build trust, good-will, and give them more say in things than if they were later forced into it.

>>82672822
Good goy.

>>82672942
>the UN
>mattering
HAHAHAAHA

Right to bring in Bucky. Wrong to sign Accords.

>>82672786
Bullshit. The accords were entirely valid in concept. You can't just have Superpowered Individuals running around doing whatever they want to "help"

The opening scene showed well enough how out of control the collateral damage with all these Avenger Battles was getting.

>>82672680
He was wrong for not checking the details and questionable morality of the faggot who he was working with to uphold the Accords (Ross).

That said, his outburst was very much understandable given the amount of shit he had to put up with on top of being kept in the dark about his parents' deaths despite trusting Cap's "muh truth and justice" in the climax. Even Cap knew to apologize for hiding the truth due to selfish reasons.

>>82673046
More people would've died if Wanda didn't plunge Crossbones in the air.

Did anyone actually read the fucking Accords? I know we really dont need that scene but it felt like everyone who signed just went "welp this sounds like a good idea, but Im sure Vision will look over it or something"

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Tony
>We have to pay for our actions
>We have to have our powers regulated
>You can't endanger lives
>Bucky could still have some hydra in him, we need to arrest him

Cap
>Fuck civilians, Buckys my friend, I don't care how many people that mass murderer kills

You tell me

>>82673072
People don't really care about "what ifs" just what's happened.

>>82672822
The UN is not a government.

Ross less concerned about collateral damage and more focused on acquiring assets he could use

>>82673122
Dude, of course they read the accords. You really think they just looked at the fucking cover?

>>82673179
You're right, it's even more incompetent and useless than the government.

>>82673225
Because Veronica worked so well, didn't it?

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>>82673134
This anon is on point. You can't have a bunch of super humans prancing into sovereign countries without those countries pushing back at all. The only alternative provided is that said supers would 'fight back' but that just makes them criminals that are excessively good at killing those sent to capture them.

Like Bucky, actually.

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>people say tony is right because he was respecting the governments
>people say steve is wrong because he was only doing it for muh bucky

>governments' and tony's arguments consisted entirely of straw manning all the work the avengers had done by saying they were big bad destruction people who killed lots of people
>when in reality everything the avengers had ever done prevented MASS death and in a few cases extinction at the cost of a few lives of collateral damage
>meanwhile governments all over the world have been to war and done the exact same thing, yet still shit on the avengers
>meanwhile the US government wanted to NUKE NEW YORK CITY instead of letting the avengers deal with it

the governments were completely wrong. That secretary of state guy's tape that was supposed to tell us all about how much shit the avengers have done that would necessitate something like this was laughable. Every single thing he showed showed the avengers staving off some massively more dangerous threat that would have wiped out millions or billions. I don't even remember them all, but off the top of my head


>slokovia
>avengers fight off an army of robots while evacuating the city of people
>avengers prevent a world ending extinction event from taking place and killing BILLIONS
>people are angry because a few (oh my god maybe even a HUNDRED!) people died in the process

>new york
>avengers fight off an army of aliens who want to take over earth, possibly killing and enslaving millions or billions
>confine their fight to a few block radius on purpose
>literal scene devoted to showing evac of citizens from this killzone
>gubmint wants to carpet nuke the whole city and kill everyone in it to contain this
>avengers you are so mean and naughty you destroyed a bunch of buildings! look at this tape of an alien ship destroying several buildings and hulk kind of tearing up the side of one!

>uganda or wherever
>avengers prevent theft of bio weapon that could have killed thousands

>>82673134
Tony
>Throws money at problems so he can freely cause property damage
>Gets drunk while partying with his weapon technology
>Leaves alien AI's unattended with free access to the internet and his hardware

Cap
>Is just a soldier with a shield doing all the good he possibly can

>>82672942
While the point was not addressed, not wanting to give a government body control over the Avengers right after learning that SHIELD, the organization that previously controlled the Avengers, was hopelessly corrupt would make me not want to turn that control over to the government.

>>82673468
Tony
>is pro skub

Cap
>is anti skub

>>82673431
Also remember that Ross is responsible for the fucking Abomination and yet he still tries to be all high and mighty torwards the Avengers

>>82673141
Bullshit, Tony's entire reason for signing was "it's better than the alternative." Yet that somehow doesn't apply to Wanda?

What's Capn's actual argument besides "tony's a dick" tone policing bullshit again?

>>82672786
This. But they both shown valid points.

>>82673046
>The accords were entirely valid in concept.
Yes. And Cap recognized that but he also had equally valud fears the Accords will become Project Insight 2.0 but this time with a Team of Super people instead of just 3 Helicarriers. Tony's own paranoia and shared guilt ride didn't help matters.

>>82672680

They were both right, it's just that Cap had the superior morality.

Regulations make perfect sense when you are dealing with flawed humans with powers they can't control, like Iron Man and most of the enhanced Humans. Iron Man needs regulations because while he may be a technological genius he's emotionally stunted and it essentially a manchild, as could be expected of someone who grew up with enough resources to never have to worry about anything until it literally blows up in his face. Just look at the scene at the end of Civil War, when he finds out the Winder Soldier killed his parents. He knows that James Barnes didn't do it, an evil organization used his physical body to accomplish their goals. However he's still to emotional to accept that two entities can share the same physical body and not be the same person. Which is odd since he's done so much work with AI.

cont.

>>82672680
I share caps worries but would have just signed to get the feds off my back and have the fight about doing what they want at a later date

>>82673134
>Tony
Reminder Cap agreed with all of those points but Tony wasn't seeing the full picture because he was busy being guilt ridden.

>>82673134
>We have to have our powers regulated
By who? Is the government any less likely to go power mad then they are? If the capes do go power mad are they suddenly not going to go power made because whoops i signed a piece of paper that promised i wouldnt. Are the capes miraculously not going to make mistakes that cost peoples lives because they signed a piece of paper?

>>82673687
That politicians are just people with agendas, and those agendas could keep the Avengers from going where they're needed or send them somewhere to do some shit they disagree with.

>>82672680
All of tony's concerns were valid.
The deal fixes none of them

>>82673818
That was probably his course of action before Peggy's death, Sharon's speech and the whole UN bombing thing.

So what happens when China starts making radioactive men and the UN can't decide between doing nothing or having the Avengers attack Hong Kong?

>>82673753

Captain America on the other and is literally ubermensch. His superiority is internal: physically, mentally, and morally. He has the ability to consider long term outcomes and apply his strength in accordance with his will. What is right to ordinary humans compared to cap is like trying to compare what's right for domestic pets compared to humans. Dogs would prefer we not sheer their nuts off, but we know if we let them run around with their genitals they'll breed themselves to starvation, so we do it anyway. Captain America, luckily for us peons, has rationalized civil liberties for the common man and realized that a regulatory body such as the UN can be just as compromised as shield. So knowing that humans if left alone will devolve into tyranny, Cap is left no alternative to become a dictator who ensures freedom.

Tony stark is TRYING to be in control and fails because he lacks true power behind his will. Captain America IS in control, and he knows it internally. Unlike Tony he has nothing to prove to his inferiors, he merely is correct and if we can't keep up it's our fault, and if we're lucky he'll explain himself later after he's done having us from ourselves like a parent keeping children from falling off a cliff.

>>82672680
Tony was not a 100% but Steve was 100% wrong.

"We can police ourselves." Then goes off the rails leaving a wake of destruction that even made Bucky go, "I don't know if I am even worth this."

Thanks for proving that Tony knew what he was doing.

>>82672680
desu if the avengers didn't like the deal the un was offering they should have negotiated a better one

>>82673431
The funniest one is when they bring up SHIELD's fuck up when it related to HYDRA and tried to pin the destruction on cap even though the whole point was that a Government org (which is a million times more well run and useful than the fucking UN) was infiltrated and destroyed from the inside.

Some random spec op agent managed to fuck up the avengers and the UN's shit.

None of this would've happened if Fury was still kicking.

>>82674125
>"We can police ourselves." Then goes off the rails leaving a wake of destruction that even made Bucky go, "I don't know if I am even worth this."
Steve was right with regards to Zemo's plot but this part literally made me kek.

>>82672680
Tony was right to kick Steve's ass over him withholding the information of his parents' deaths. Seriously Cap, what the fuck.

>>82673875
Didn't Tony flat-out say "this'll probably get amended out eventually" anyway and that it's more of a symbolic thing?
And why is the dude who just spent an entire movie telling the government to go fuck off worried the government might tell him to do/not do something he doesn't want to?

>>82674182
>None of this would've happened if Fury was still kicking.
The writers' reasoning for Fury not involving himself is because he was a like "parent" who was letting his "kids" grow by the deciding things on their own. Kinda retarded logic but hey.

>>82674125
Literally Steve's only direct mistake (which he recognizes, mind you) was keeping the Starks deaths from Tony. Everything else was spot on. The powers trying to reign over then aren't trusty and easily thrown off by a guy in a rubber mask. Bucky is guilt ridden and have the right of feeling like crap but he was being too hard on himself. Fortunately he has a pal like Steve that keeps believing in him even when he feels like giving up. Cap wouldn't argue for Bucky being processed. That's why Zemo made him a kill target. Cap wouldn't ever allow such injustice. Much less sign with that people.

>>82673431
The whole time they were showing the footage i was just wating for someone to ask 'Okay so what would you do that would have changed things?' because that cuts right to the center of the issue.

Tony's concerns were legit but the deal is literally useless. The Government isn't stopping a rampaging Hulk if anything they'll make the situation worse. The Government isn't stopping a rampaging Thor, in fact, no one is. Hell, to stop any other rampaging superhero they'd need some of the avengers help, if Tony and War Machine while Thor and Hulk are off in space decide to go rouge who the fuck brings them in? No one except supers who would've done it in the first place.


The UN deal just ties them up in a hilariously incompetent organization that later in the movie stops Stark from actually addressing Zemo making Stark act like he's going for Cap.

>>82674236
Literally the only thing that Tony was right about. Seriously, imagine that Cap knew all about this ever since the end of TWS and he basically kept this to himself all throughout AOU.

>>82672680
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence

I think both Tony and Cap were right in each their own way. Tony was right, they do need some kind of rules of engagement, some kind of outside regulation. But Cap was right in that they need the freedom as sentient beings to make their own decisions.

>>82674236
Yep that was a serious fuck up but it's like the only thing you can blame entirely on Cap. And he wants to make amends when circumstances allow it. Hence the phone scene.

>>82673046
Absolutely. However, this concept also involves the governments of the world:
> looking out for the common good
> actually caring about eachother
> not being mired shoulder-deep in bureaucracy and red-tape
> being able to move swiftly and decisively
and of course, the utter stupidity that is the veto system of the UN Security Council will probably prevent the Avengers from moving in all but the most dire of circumstances.

>>82673134
Cap
>this document just shifts the blame
>it's run by people with agendas
>you chose to [destroy weapons in the wrong hands]. If we sign this we surrender our right to choose.
>what if this panel sends us somewhere we don't want to go
>what if there is somewhere we need to go and they won't let us

Tony
>cuts a deal with Ross, a man he knows has no sense of personal accountability
>the accords would still send them after threats like Ultron and people would still die by accident, the accords would solve nothing other than allowing Tony an excuse because 117 countries signed off on it
>the accords are a political body and they've already seen countless politicians who were corrupt or secretly Hydra agents - the moment the accords were given authority over the avengers the UN panel became the priority target for subversion by bad guys and governments alike to enforce their own agendas using the Avenger's powers
>goes to war against his friends over a piece of paper despite the damage they cause
>takes a 15 year old kid into battle without his guardian's knowledge or permission
>finally learns the truth when he actually looks into Cap's claims (or has Friday do it)
>tells Ross the truth
>Ross refuses to let him go, tells him he's lucky he's not in jail
>Tony, not able to secure permission to go where he feels he needs to go, choose to disobey and do what he thinks is right
>ends up using his armor as a weapon to murder a man who was a mind-controlled victim and when told he's been emotionally compromised and that what he's doing won't help anything Tony refuses to stand down because he doesn't care.
>Tony never once tries to go after Zemo or even seems to remember Zemo exists and started all this

Tony ends up being everything he claims to be against and runs into exactly what Cap warned him would happen. To top it off he goes full murder retard.

But it's a Captain America movie so we all knew who was going to be the true hero in this flick.

>>82673064
Tony knows Ross of old. The whole Incredible Hulk incident. Ross empowered Blonsky using a knockoff super soldier serum and the guy went off the deepend, turned himself into the Abomination, and killed a bunch of innocent people. Ross later went on to become Secretary of State.

Funny how Ross had no such accountability or responsibility for what he did and the shit floats to the top as usual with a big fat promotion. At least his daughter probably still hates and refuses to have anything to do with him, so some karmic retribution there.

>>82673141
and those people are stupid and shouldnt influence the decisions of people who could actually make changes

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>>82673134
>We have to pay for our actions
says the guy who just got a slight sense of guilt 5 movies later

>Fuck civilians
how the fuck do you get to this conclusion?

>>82674437
This is impirtant. For a moment it seems Tony wants a way to share/pass respinsability for his actions so he can sleep at night while Cap believes a man must face his shit upfront. Signing the accords rid them of some of that responsability which makes them look better to the suits but also rid them of the freedom of taking desicions.

>>82672680
i haven't seen the movie, what's the actual deal that's supposed to be made here and what actual rules would the avengers have to follow?

>>82674552
When you think about it the Avengers should have told Ross to fuck off and let the UN create their own International Buddy Force.

Putin can supply Crimson Dynamo, Captain Britain for the UK, etc etc. Ross can even dope himself into The All-American Rulk.

>>82672680
I think as much as Steve was talking from a place that was Bucky-centric I think Tony was coming from a place of personal guilt. There's the argument in a lot of comics (in world) that the hero encourages or necessitates the creation of the villain. But , at least in MCU Tony is more involved and in some cases directly responsible for the creation of the things he's been fighting. And I think he projects that onto the rest of the team. And maybe there's a solid argument that Tony does need some kind of supervision to safeguard his reckless actions but the rest of the team seems better capable of handling things on there own.

>>82673072
I still wondering why even them still ignore that fact.

Sure, the next time some aline race tries to anihilate our civilization or a crazy military steals a virus that could decimate a country they could just do nothing to prevent a couple of buildings coming down.

>>82673518
Because he is a hypocrite. So it was obvious he'd make a great politicians. Just watch out. By the time of IW he's probably President Ross.

>>82672680
>if you don't sign this then everything will go to shit
>everything goes to shit
No brainer, chief.

>>82674705
>I think as much as Steve was talking from a place that was Bucky-centric I think Tony was coming from a place of personal guilt.
This. Both of them have very real points for their sides. But at the same time it's interesting that they also have a clear personal stake. Tony feels guilty and trusts the UN to make decisions for him more than he trusts himself. And if they make the wrong call, it absolves him of guilt because he wasn't calling the shot. Cap is fighting for Bucky because he's his best friend obviously, but he also happens to be the one single thing Steve still has left of his old life since Peggy died. Steve can't bear to let that go.

>>82674787
Fucking this. I'm waiting for Thanos to break some heavy shit and see the UN reaction.

>>82674255
>Didn't Tony flat-out say "this'll probably get amended out eventually" anyway and that it's more of a symbolic thing?
If Tony truly believed that he's an idiot.

>>82674859
>correlation means causation

>>82674683
>let the UN create their own International Buddy Force.
That's called escalation and that's not a good thing.

Didn't this guy create Ultron? Didn't this guy just let Terrorist attack his home and beckon them to come? All of a sudden he wants accountability? Why isn't he behind bars for his crimes against humanity?

>>82672680
You know if everyone had just done as they were told then the bad events of the film would have been much more limited.

You cannot have an independent team going around raping everyone's sovereign airspace, waters and soil and expect that to last very long. The fact it took this long to come up is purely a product of film making.

Also Tony was written pretty stupid at times. Seriously man Zemo was RIGHT THERE!!

>>82674681
thanks for explaining things in a even better way. or perhaps from the emotional side of the characters. Tony wants to assuage his guilt by signing the Accords. By signing the Accords its like pleading guilty in a court of law and admitting he fucked up somewhere. One of the first times in the history of all the movies he's been in that he showed some kind of serious remorse and emotional distress over the stuff that's happened.

Rodgers on the other hand looks at things from another emotional standpoint. The ideal that each man must take upon himself the guilt for his own actions, no matter how heroic or villainous.

>>82673046
>The opening scene showed well enough how out of control the collateral damage with all these Avenger Battles was getting.

Yeah they should have let Crossbones blow up his grenade without interfering

>>82674875
the same reaction in every movie. "Let's give up and hope they do a Roman style takeover"

>>82675061
I disagree with the other anon but Crossbones was literally trying to goad Cap into fight so he could blow himself up. Had it been someone else he sure as hell wouldn't gone full Jihad then and there. Didn't help that Cap got distracted by the mere mention of Bucky.

i don't know why tony can't sign an accord saying that he, tony, the guy who fucked up and created ultron, won't do anything without UN permission, and then all the avengers who are actually heroes can go on being heroic and fighting evil the same way they had been doing.

or you know, maybe tony could just sign a thing with the rest of the avengers saying that because they're heroes and he isn't, that they'll tell him what to do, and he'll do it, instead of doing the stupid shit he wants to do.

>>82674255
>Didn't Tony flat-out say "this'll probably get amended out eventually" anyway and that it's more of a symbolic thing?
see, tony's a fucking retard. this would be improbable with real world governments, and he's applying it to fucking mcu civillian led governments

I'm the only one who thinks Sokovia is a really terrible name?

It sounds like a fictional country from a disney TV movie

>>82675191
>It sounds like a fictional country from a disney TV movie
Well...

>>82675191
Wouldn't be surprised if it was inspired from "Slorenia", which was a fictional country in the comics where Ultron murdered the entire population.

>>82674945
That's called an inevitability. You think once the US had nukes and people saw just how terrible they are everyone agreed to put the genie back in the bottle and never speak of it again? Of course not. Everybody wanted nukes. Several countries have succeeded.

Agents of SHIELD pointed out how the Accords lays the framework of super power registration. Ross doesn't want loose nukes. They need to know who has powers, what they can do, and where they are at all times. And what do people do with lists like that? Start recruiting. Happened easily enough in the comics. Several countries have tried to create their own super soldiers, some have succeeded. Many have their own nationalized super hero teams. In the comic Civil War they had the 50-State Initiative. Every state in our great union deserves it's own local super hero team!

Once people know there is power they'll try to claim it and some will abuse it. Once they legitimize powered groups others will want their own. There are 196 countries today. How many who didn't sign the Accords may decide to go their own way?

>>82674580
He killed his mom, yo.

>>82674890
Why? As it stands, it meant more as a gesture than an actual effort at regulation. As if anyone could actually prevent the Avengers from taking action. People were just spooked because a rogue group of superpowered individuals were running around the world doing whatever the fuck they wanted. The accords would have provided peace of mind.

>>82675191
Couldn't use Latveria after all

>>82675362
Well no shit; even if they had the rights Doom would've kicked Ultron's ass right out of his country.

>>82674182

>tried to pin the destruction on cap

Well he is the one who pulled the trigger on dropping several kilotons of metal on the country's capital.

When the alternative was "The government that has been spying on us for decades now has the power to spy on us more."

>>82675298
Exactly. Everyone has a breaking point. That's why Tony's armors need a failsafe shutdown code known to his closest friends and now Secretary of State Ross.

>Friday, execute override: Alpha Whiskey Double Shot Bourbon Tango On the Rocks

>>82675411
You gotta admit that would've been a much better movie than we've got.

>>82675455
So has Peter's new suit one?

>>82675411
>Ultron is here. Humanity is doomed.
>I. AM. DOOM!
>...Wanna make out?
>YES!

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>>82672680
>mfw Rich from RLM got owned on this

>>82673134
THIS
H
I
S

>>82675432
If he didn't Ross himself might have been toast now.
I hope Thanos will rape Ross to death.

And we all know the Accords will be gone after IW anyway.

>>82675498
The Iron Spider suit actually did, in the comics. But Peter managed to bypass it once he caught on to the fact that Stark is fucking paranoid as fuck and was secretly monitoring him.

>>82675498
Knowing Tony? Probably, but Peter wasn't going to betray Iron Man this time around. He needs to get back home in time for his own movie. Can't be stuck in ocean hellhole prison or Wakanda.

>>82672680
Tony was right in the sense that he acted less retarded.

The Accords were dumb, but Tony knew if they signed on and cooperated they'd have a better chance to make it more palatable down the line. Like Black Widow said "one hand on the wheel"

Instead Steve assaulted officers to save his friend, which resulted in his friend mursering even more people once he was brainwashed again. He directly antagonized the authorities Tony was trying to appeal to and basically fucked the who diplomacy effort for "muh Bucky"

>>82672680
Look man, in the real world, if there were people who could like level city blocks with their minds, I would want them to have to answer to some kind of authority. We register guns, Superhero > guns, we register superheroes

Incidentally, the economist did an ironic story on this where they came down on the side of the Avengers signing the Sokovia Accords. Very amusing, worth the read if you haven't already:
http://www.economist.com/news/diversions/21698458-avengers-should-agree-be-placed-under-un-supervision

>>82672680
He was right about the accords, wrong about Bucky

>>82675571
Yes but Peter pretty much already said in his own words that he would betray the Accords. Because to him doing nothing if he has the power to do so is wrong. Which would possibly happen with the Accords, as Steve has said.

Stark is literally a liberal that wants to be cucked while Cap is a conservative that believes that freedom comes from having the good and the bad. I can't remember who said it but it's like the famous quote "those who give up their freedom for a little bit of security deserve neither"

>>82675661
Yeah but as people pointed out in the thread so did Iron Man when he told Ross about Zemo and Ross ignored him so Tony went after Zemo on his own.

Tony would have zero fucks about Peter doing what he needed to and would place Ross on hold if the man called.

>people need intense training and respond to a strict chain of command and rules to be a cop and be able to shoot people in necessary
>superheroes can just do whatever they want with they world ending powers without responding to anyone

How stupid can people be if they think Tony was not right?

>>82675912
/thread

>>82675651
i just read this article. It is frighteningly accurate and well written. Good to see we still have good writers out there.

>>82674992
>You know if everyone had just done as they were told then the bad events of the film would have been much more limited.

Bucky would be dead, Panther would have fucked off back to Wakanda confident his father had been avenged and having learned nothing, and when Zemo came up with a new plan to get Cap and Tony to fight maybe Cap would be a lot less unstable and actually go for the kill.

War Machine would still be able to walk tho

>>82672942
the UN doesn't matter though

>>82673072
Thats exactly why they need the accords. It not only protects the civilians but also protects heroes from taking all the blame when shit goes bad.

Its not like the accord is going to somehow magically reduce collateral damage when each party is trying to kill each other. But when there is collateral damage with supposed "proper" authority and leadership in place there are ways to spread the blame and people are more willing to listen to the excuse that there was no choice.

If you truly believe in freedom and democracy, there's no way you can defend Tony. Steve all the way, freedom at all costs.

>>82675912
>people need to respond to a strict chain of command and rules to be a cop and be able to shoot people in necessary
like killing an innocent man because they suspected he bombed the UN?

>>82675651
>We register guns

You can choose not to buy a gun uf you don't want to be registered for owning one

>>82676389
What about the freedom to not want the Avengers to be involved in combat operation on your soil?

>>82676316
If Bucky dies we straight up get "The Captain" movie. Oh yeah and T'challa lanenting Zemo made him kill an innocent man. Tony with an even worse guilt ridden concsience and the Team even more fractured.

>>82675651
>in the real world
argument discarded

>>82676434
you can choose not to be a superhero

>>82676463
>Freedom to let your country be decimated by supervillains.
I voted for this.

>>82676498
You can't choose to be less powerful tho

>>82676396
>Bucky
>innocent

Go to bed, Steve

It's not even a matter of opinion. Cap pointed out the the accords could prevent them from going into a situation that needs them, an exactly that happened. Ross prevented Tony from going to Siberia, and Tony broke the accords and went.

>>82676563
The /tv/ accords only relate to supeheroics

Most people on /co/ agree with Captain. I had a Strawman poll but don't got the link anymore. Guy below explains it quite well, but Tony is at least right in some sense of being more regulated. The Winter Soldier movie showed that government and agencies can't be trusted with a blind eye. You already know for sure there are plenty of operatives and supporters of Hydra in the UN and the governments it holds. We all know that Tony will dismiss the Accords and it will somehow be shut down in the next movie or the one after that. You already know that Ross will be a villain at some point, and that the Avengers will band back together. It's because Tony is more wrong than Captain, but both are right, just not at the same degree.
>>82673431

>>82676498
>You can choose to turn a blind eye on a robbery despite your anazing powers just because is none of your bussiness.
What could possibly go wrong, Peter?

>>82675912
Pity we never saw some kind of military trained man like Captain America training the Avengers or anything. Shit, son, if only that had been the ending of Age of Ultron.

>>82676549
The Avengers made things worse in South Africa

>>82672680
Both had valid points, neither was completely right.

Also only just saw the movie, so I'm busy being hype. Holy shit that was _intense_.

>>82676584
Plus they prevented Cap (ok maybe Cap is too close to the situation. Send War Machine or Iron Man or one of the guys powerful enough) from going to arrest Bucky instead of killing him.

>>82676577
He was innocent of the bombing. As alien as this concept might be to you anon, people can be innocent or guilty of different things at the same time.

>>82676638
Vigilantes are scum

>>82676660
It's a really good movie.

>>82673072
>More people would've died if Wanda didn't plunge Crossbones in the air.

And, after a third party looked at the relevant facts that's the decision they might have reached too. However she decided that "fuck that" and ran off to help an internationally wanted fugitive blow up an airport because he claimed he was innocent of blowing up a building.

Well done Wanda.

>>82675901
What if he stops calling though and does shit on his own. Like hire some nut like Kraven to hunt himself a human spider?

Tony should have been put on trial for war crimes after Age of Ultron. He has no place trying to tell people how to be responsible with their powers.

>>82672680

If you are talking about him trying to kill Bucky, he was wrong, but I understand where he's coming from.

>>82676662
Fuck Bucky, he was a cunt even before the hydra-control

WE NEED THE SOKOVIA ACCORDS, YOU CANT JUST DO WAHT YOU WANT

Okay, so who was pursuing Crossbones to stop him when he grabbed the biological weapon?

YOU

okay, what about anyone else

LISTEN
YOU CANT JUST DO WHATEVER YOU WANT TO STOP THESE ... BAD THINGS. IT'S YOUR FAULT THE BAD THINGS HAPPEN ANYWAY LOL

what are you talking about

KILL YOURSELVES. THATS THE ACCORD.

>>82676672
Save that for tomorrow's headline, Jonah.

>>82672680
They were both right. General Ross and the UN were in the wrong.

Yes Super Humans should be regulated, and yes Bucky should have been imprisoned. But the amount of EXTREME they wanted to control every single thing about Super Humans and basically murder Bucky.

Take it down a notch.

>>82676434
There are guns you can buy that aren't registered, though they're trying to close loopholes for "historical weapons" at gun shows and the like. Even then you can actually build guns and it's legal, though it can't be a type of gun that would be a restricted classification, such as an assault style weapon. 3D printing will probably close that as well, at least somewhat.

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>>82676723
Civil War writing, folks. Any attempt to pretend or say this is over simplified are just delusional.

>>82676701
Tony didn't do anything wrong. Ultron was a sapient being and as such responsible for his own actions. You don't arrest people becase of what their offspring do, unless you're North Korea

>>82673431
This.

If accords were active during Battle of NY, it would've went like this.

>Avengers Ass...! Chitauri are invading under Loki's... WHAT DO YOU MEAN WE ARE ORDERED TO RETREAT AND LEAVE THESE PEOPLE TO NUKES?!

>>82676693
We'll we don't know if this is going full Registration, though AOS says it is. Even then we don't know if they'll have authorized street level heros and even if they do if they'll need to be under some kind of central authority.

Probably as long as Peter doesn't get caught or accidentally get anyone killed and start an international incident he'll be fine.

>>82676730
Spider-man could just join the police force

>>82676723
WE CAN'T STOP THE BAD THINGS FROM HAPPENING

why

BECAUSE THE BAD GUYS ARE SUPER POWERED TOO

so we need to stop them when we feel fit

NO YOU'RE THE CAUSE OF THEM

okay and

JUST STOP LOL SIGN UP

>>82672680
Zemo, the victim of the Avengers destruction, was able to break them apart. Yeah, I think this movie was trying to tell us something.

>>82676820
I thought that was more of the Accords setting a precedent for a Mutan... Inhuman Registration Act

>>82676670
>As alien as this concept might be to you anon, people can be innocent or guilty of different things at the same time.

Different anon, but committing crime to escape questioning about another crime is illegal. If you break the law cause you're running from the law you're not very innocent after all. Bucky should have turned himself in months ago once he started getting his head on straight for all the damage he caused in the last movie.

Instead of getting help for his occasional murder outbursts he decided he was better off on his own. The victim's families could sure use some closure but Bucky doesn't care about any of that shit. He claims to remember everything, just think of how many unanswered questions he can answer.

>>82676787
Now that all depends, isn't it. It's not like AIs have been proven to have any kind of human rights in the MCU. We don't know what Vision is legally classified, for instance. It's possible that both Vision and Ultron would be classes as autonomous weapons systems/platforms and as such everything they do would dump liability on Tony's head as both creator and de facto owner and operator.

>>82676787

Creating a mass murdering, genocidal robot isn't exactly the same as fathering a serial killer.

>>82676864
Not really, I think Russo's just wanted superheroes to duke it out on screen. They aren't fond of the fact that Cap is just strong guy with a shield.

>>82676820
Well, AoS isn't canon

>>82676822
He was a kid at the beginning. Also it will be fun seeing him trying to use his Spider-Powers while on patrol and not get sent to a lab. Jameson is retarded as always.

>>82676820
Well JJ will use the Accords to slander Peter I can tell you that much, and then come his super villains that will cause collateral. It writes itself that they will be cracking down on him some way.

>>82676316
>War Machine would still be able to walk tho

Don Cheadle looked so fucking old.

>>82676898
that's robo-racist

>>82676872
The news media in the last episode of Agents said "framework" so sounds like the registration of powered individuals is build into the accords, probably in ultra fine print on page 2617.

Which makes sense. You couldn't expect countries like this to hammer out Accords without creeping the scope of the document, i.e. reining in the Avengers. Hell, the fact that the Accords came so damn fast is telling, suggesting that just like with the Patriot Act the meat of the document was drafted long ago and Lagos was just the excuse needed to push it into international law.

>>82676961
He probably feels like he's too old for this shit as well.

>>82676907
So you're just retarded

>Sir theres this giant fucking monster tearing apart Seattle. The Avengers would really like to go and stop it

>Hold on we have to put this to a vote

>Shit We can't get ahold of France's representive.

>Can't we just vote with-

>No he has to have input otherwise we're in some deep legal dog shit

>Fuck. Pick up your phone.
~Meanwhile The entire city burns to the ground

>The finally reach the French representative.
>The Avengers have the go ahead
>Hundreds are already dead by the time they arrive
>The fight the thing
>A few more die during the fight because they're fighting a giant fucking monster for Christ sake
>The media bitches and moans that they caused collateral damage anyway

Hooray for Bureaucracy!

>>82676940
Not if he's already registered and Tony vouches for him. A powerful New York newspaper versus a powerful billionaire philanthropist, both would have leverage but both have their own enemies too.

>>82673753
>it's just that Cap had the superior morality.
>MUH BUCKY

Tony tried to do the right thing by everyone. He tried to bend the rules to try to get everyone what they wanted. Offered Cap a olive branch more than once

Cap only cared about Bucky that was it, even to lie straight to Tony's face about his parents.

>>82676711
Fuck you faggot

>>82675432
>"The government that has been spying on us for decades now has the power to spy on us more."

did you miss the part where the helicarriers were going to eliminate millions of people? It looked into peoples lives, determined those who would be most likely to actively oppose a hydra take over, and was going to fucking kill all of them.

>>82676961
>>82676995
Him and RDJ aren't getting any younger. Wonder how long until they will be killed off in the movies?
And who will take the armor of Ironman then?
Pepper?
I'd rather have them pull out a bastard son/daughter of Tony out of their asses before using movie Pepper in that capacity.

>>82676808
Shield wasn't the UN. The UN has never in the history of ever authorized nukes.

Also, in hindsight the nuke was a bad idea, but at the time? If there's a hole in the sky spitting out giant fucking death worms that spit out dudes with lasers that can chew through buildings, bombing the shit out of it might be your best bet.

With an unknown quantity of forces pouring through and an unknown technological difference your best bet might very well be to nuke the shit out of them. Sucks for New York, but that might be what saves the rest of everyone.

Or, conversely, you can count on the mentally retarded green guy to save the day.

>>82677023

Except that's bullshit. With people's lives in immediate danger, the details of the action could be hammered out later.

Do you think everything could've been resolved with hatesex?

>>82676881
>to escape questioning

He was escaping death

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>>82676961
>>82676995
He's just tired of their shit and wishes he could turn them all into trees with his dick.

>>82677023

This guy gets it. Tying the hands of the only super powered individuals who want to help isn't going to do shit to cut down on collateral damage the next time some asshole decides to fuck up a city.

>>82672680
someone should point out that this only happened because tony made some super robot ai like a retard that dropped a city on a bunch of people.

>>82676913
To be fair it's more canon than you are.

>>82677050
>Opposing glorious Hydra masterace

they deserved to die

>>82676881

Anon, the government didn't give a shit about questioning.

>>82676690
She ran off to help an internationally wanted fugitive track down the UN bomber. Airport fight was on Tony for not letting Cap explain what they were doing.

I just feel bad for Bucky. The guy got captured and forced to kill people without a choice including friends and aquitances. When he gets freed from that the law wants him death and keeps being used to harm his closest friend. All while the only thing he was doing Pre-brainwash was FIGHTING FOR HIS DAMN COUNTRY.

Good soldier, this is your reward.

;_;

>>82676620
>Most people on /co/ agree with Captain.
Cool horseshit bro

>>82677035
I doubt he is registrated. He's still a kid. And The Bugle writing shit about Spidey is pretty much a must.

>>82677132
No its not, I'm Kevin Fiegel or whatever

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>>82675912
And since we can't predict which superpowered individuals might decide to become heroes let's conscript every single one of them into pseudo-military training under the tutelage of people who don't necessarily know how to manage their abilities. Nothing bad could happen from that.

>>82677149

"I remember all of them."

This fucked me up pretty hard.

>>82677196
Nowhere is this mentioned in the film

>>82676723
>Okay, so who was pursuing Crossbones to stop him when he grabbed the biological weapon?
Who was the one that cause millions and property damage along with hundreds killed inside the building?

WE SAVED LIVES

But want about the lives you didn't save?

WE SAVED LIVES

If a superpowered entity existed in real life, literally all of you would want it to be under control by some government or at the very least be kept in check by some governing body.

Ross was absolutely right, even as a hypocrite, that just losing a Hulk or a Thor is unacceptable. His apt metaphor of just losing two nukes is entirely accurate. Most people of the world don't know who Bruce Banner is. Most definitely don't know who Thor really is. How do we know that they aren't just going to turn on the people of the world one day? World War Hulk happened, it's not like it's entirely out of his character.

>>82677072
>The Avengers are at fault for any collareral damage they cause
>but hey, if someone with the proper authority decides to nuke New York, tough titties

>>82675912
The avengers aren't enforcing the law. They're fighting evil.

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>>82674125
The Entire Airport fight was probably less costly than this single scene from Avengers.

It was.

-A heavily damaged airplane.
-A fuel truck
-An Air Traffic Tower
-A Bus
-Baggages for a couple hundred people.
-Windows
-A small kiosk
-A guard railing.

If anything the Avengers are getting BETTER at containing Collateral damage over time.

>>82677078
Except that's not how it works anon. People can and will use it as political leverage against other countries. France will cry out for concessions to be made for them for taking any action without them.

>>82677023
>>Sir theres this giant fucking monster tearing apart Seattle.

Conversely, as we see in the movie, the avengers have information that bad guys are going to bad thing in (town). They keep that shit a secret from (government) so they can go in there and have a fist fight with mercenaries who are using guns and carrying a biological weapon on a city street.

There's maybe some room in the middle, don't you think. I know the right wing meme is that government always fails (when right wing politicians completely fuck it over in every way), but there's a place between "hands are tied" and "weapons free."

The "useless UN" in the movie was able to mobilize and deploy dozens of crack troops to take on Bucky in about the time it took Captain America to get there on his own. Pretending they're our UN is just goofy. (we aren't building flying battleships and floating superhero prisons either.)

Is it only to me weird, that people root for Iron Man, yet they suck Punisher's dick balls deep?

>>82677257

Bingo.
State worshiping faggots. The lot of you.

>>82677224
What do you think the government will do to the next person with powers that's going to pop up?
Obviously send the rest of the Avengers (all three of them, heh) to secure them because they are a threat and then try to get them to co-operate or send them to the Raft. That's not exactly hard to figure out.
Who else do you think that prison was built for?

>>82677245
The alternative is doing fucking nothing and watch the world burn.

Lookit,

>Pro-Accord Arguments:
Sovereign states are not going to tolerate superhuman vigilantes showing up without request from a foreign power and just let them have free rein to use physical force against their civilians, criminal or not.
I'd say that this is imperialism at its worst, but they're not even being mobilized by the US. It's more like if a PMC just decided to do things on their own. The Avengers are essentially a PMC that only spends money and doesn't try to make a profit.
The applicability of treaties like the Geneva Convention is dubious. How often do the Avengers bring anyone to be held accountable for their crimes and how much due process is afforded? Does this just make the Avengers war criminals?

>Anti-Accords:
Too many political and economic considerations will be at play for truly unbiased decision-making with regards to deploying the Avengers in any instance. Cap summed it up perfectly when he asked what if there's a place they're sent but morally shouldn't be, or if there's a place they need to go but aren't being sent.
Furthermore, what kind of infrastructure is established to ensure that the Avengers will be deployed quickly, before whatever threat to be neutralized has already snowballed? The only threat we saw them be deployed against was Cap's team. But that didn't require any decision-making or approval because they were fugitives from the United Nations themselves.

No version of the Accords would ever hold up to a moral purity test. Both sides are very myopic, but both sides are also morally justified.

>>82677162
If Tony doesn't register the kid after all this then the only other answer is Tony goes against the Accords and tries to hide and protect him.

>>82677245
Bad writing - because the alternative is just letting everyone die instead of some.

On a totally different note: Red Hulk when?

>>82674640
It's called Bait, anon.

It's funny but doesn't the movie Megamind shows what happens when a super powered individual doesn't want to save people?

>>82677257
I'm not saying that the people who authorized it should get off scott free. Doesn't make it a bad idea though. Here's the thing, if you make the hard call you then have to take responsibility for that shit. The Avengers get to do one without having to worry about the other, at all.

>>82677255
>losing a Hulk or a Thor is unacceptable
You don't lose a person. They decide to go?
What should they have done, force Thor to stay?

Captain America is wrong! We don't know when was the last time he checked his MyBook page!

>>82676881
>The victim's families could sure use some closure
This is the most bullshit argument. What is he going to say to make things better for the families? "I'm sorry, I wasn't in control of my actions when I turned your dad's face into a bowl. Let's help each other deal with this trauma."

>>82675912
Even with the "intense training and respond to a strict chain of command and rules" cops still go around doing what the fuck ever, like strangling a guy that wasn't resisting and flat out says to the cops that he can't breathe. I don't really see what point you're trying to make here.

>>82677350
>>82677316
>WE SAVED LIVES

>>82677023
Jesus dude did you really have tontype out this contrived scenario to make your case? You're missing the entire point here, which is that the Avengers would never be called at all, Seattle would get nuked and then the bureaucrats would write it off as acceptable losses.

Because the only difference between right and wrong is filing the proper paperwork.

>>82676898
This.
Tony should be held to be criminally reckless at best for his role in creating Ultron.

I'm willing to overlook anything from a Whedon movie in my headcanon, though.

>>82677350
>>82677316
>My family died in the destruction you caused. Why didn't you save them? I thought being super powered beings meant that you were above the law and could respond at any time to save people instead of waiting for a veto?
>Uhhhh......

>>82677314
Agreed. Well except about The Raft which was supposed to house powered psychos but instead they put the heroes in there and keep the psychos in weird plastic packing cases in easily broken into buildings.

BUT there are a few lines important to the case that the Accords are meant as a Registration Act. There's the notion from Vision that since Stark revealed himself as Iron Man (ahem) the number of powered individuals and incidents has increased dramatically. We also heard from Ross that he doesn't like loose nukes. This is about the Avengers but also more than the Avengers, it's about how to control and contain people with powers and placing them under authority.

>>82677272
>The Entire Airport fight was probably less costly than this single scene from Avengers.

Except there was no alien army invading at the airport. It was a superhero protecting his boyfriend from questioning about his many dozens of kills.

>>82677313
>State worshiping faggots.

Can't talk to Sovereign citizens. It's compltetly unworthy of the effort. It's funny to watch them get tazed though.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sovereign+citizen+tasered

If I was in the Avengers (big IF, i know) I'd be more open to the accords if they didn't hand the leash over to the UN and were more interested in accountability.

Im more than willing to be countable for my own decisions but to have them made for me is unacceptable.

>>82677343
Well he is already ignoring Ross whereever he can and went behind his back.
Problem is that Spidey WILL become famous. And that brings attention and Tony can't protect him the entire time.
I like the idea of Kraven being hired by some Accords idiot to bring him Spiderman.

>>82673122
>Did anyone actually read the fucking Accords? I know we really dont need that scene but it felt like everyone who signed just went "welp this sounds like a good idea, but Im sure Vision will look over it or something"
There are only 4 signatures in the Accord. One is ffrom an android who would sign and agree to almost anything. Another is from a current member of the military who is already taking orders from the government, and as such the Accords change nothing for him.

The other two? One from a spy who sign because her signature is worth jack, it isn't even her real name and if she want to leave she can at any time. And finally the last is from Tony Stark, a guy who outright said that he would just twist the Accords to suit himself afterwards with the power of lawyers, and was seen breaking the Accords right at the end of the film.

Basically, no one read the Accords because no one cared what was in it.

>>82677429
Point remains. They can save as much people as they can or save no one so the mother of that child have thousand of other mourning moms making her company.

>>82677272
You forgot all of Wanda's vehicle projectiles. The Avengers are pretty much leading a war against the auto-insurance industry.

>>82677370
In whay way do you think a guy like Ross takes more responsibility than the Avengers? Ross created the Hulk, provoked him into multpile rampages, and then lost him. In return he becomes secretary of state and gets to blame the Avengers for losing the Hulk as if they're more responsible for the Hulk than he is.

He almost gets his own daughter killed in one of the fights HE STARTED and the Hulk protects her. And yet he claims the Avengers put people in harms way.

Oh, and the people who launched the nuke did get off scott free.

>>82677373
>What should they have done, force Thor to stay?

You keep that brother of his for the crime of blowing up a city and killing Earth people at the very least. Loki should have answered to us, instead of going to magical fairy land with his fucking brother of all things. There's no accountability for that.

Thor kept that asshole in his room for six months at best? Meanwhile there are grieving families on Earth who will never know wtf happened.

>>82677373
Well the Avengers would be held accountable for losing Hulk. And yes you can lose a person. If the president suddenly went missing, it is the secret service's fault. Or if a protected VIP is missing, it is the fault of his protection detail.

>>82677299
People don't care much about a character's moral stances/political views as long as they like that character.

>>82677429
>Look kid, I'm sorry your mommy or daddy that clearly didn't hug you enough died but just because we have powers to act and do what good we can where we can it doesn't magically make us into miracle workers. As much as I'd love to I can't be everywhere at once, so we place ourselves where we do the most good. Unfortunately in this instance your family wasn't in that place.

>>82677442
How DID the number of powered individuals increase dramatically in the movie verse though?
Have some more popped up behind the scenes we don't know about (and don't say AoS because that's only canon in so far that it follows the movies and not the other way around) so that they actually have a justification of building a fuckhuge prison for some?
Maybe the Raft actually has already some more prisoners.

>>82677600
That reminds me, that black bitch blaming Tony in the beginning was super irritating.

>>82677553
This anon gets it. Thor took Loki back to Asgard and Fury told the World Security Council to suck a dick because he didn't want to argue with a "god" about it.

Also, Banner is a fugitive. Fury didn't give a shit about that because Fury plays by his own rules. Tony pretty much gave him a hideout in Stark Tower, too.

>>82677664
At least she didn't stick around to make Tony go full retard like in the comic.

>>82677553
To be fair Loki would probably have sprung out of a human prison much quicker than an Asgardian one.

>>82677638
>How DID the number of powered individuals increase dramatically in the movie verse though?
They always existed, the same way SHIELD always had flying cars. But because Tony Stark was the first PUBLIC superhero, he cause many other supers to join him in the limelight, both heroic and villainous.

>>82677537
>"Multiple contusions detected"
>"Yeah, I detected that too".

Sorry, I forgot.

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>these incredibly powerful people are held accountable to no one and don't need to respond to any of the government or the people of the world; supposedly the people they protect
>this is fine with /co/

>>82677473

I fucking hate those guys. You're right. They're insufferable

I am an anarchist but I see no reason to be a dick.
I acknowledge the humanity of every person around me (even policemen) and try my best to show them the sort of respect I'd like to receive.

Not because they're wearing a badge. But because they're a fucking person.

I know the law. I do make it work for me.
Not because I believe in it but because if Im going to be forced to play a game against my will the first thing Im going to do is learn the rules and win.

So when a police officer asks me if he can search my car. I will politely tell him to get a warrant. Most cops are alright if you're not an asshole to them first.

>>82677299
Ironically the government in these movies is more punisher-like.

>government wants to nuke new york

Defend this shit

Imagine this scenario, using our culture as a reference.

>Police officer accidentaly killed a bystander in a shootout with the mobs
>public outrage when the police department doesn't want to release the name of the police officer that did it accident or not

The police officer is the superheroes and the bystander is you. The police department is the justice league / avengers.

Who's side are you more likely to support? Also, look at this from the perspective of a civilian without superpowers instead of a superhero. Be realistic here

>>82677752
Would be nice to actually see them then, because so far we only got assholes in suits (and some borderline hobo ruskie) that are also disposed off in the same movie instead of being send to a super prison.

>>82677775
Yeah, shocking on a board about comics and super heroes that we have no issues with that!

>>82677809
It was a HYDRA government at the time.

>>82677788
This. Cops are just guys doing their job. Not automatically evil fascists you can harass when you like. But also certainly not unquestionable paragons of all that is holy. They're just people, nothing more.

>>82677380
>"I'm sorry, I wasn't in control of my actions when I turned your dad's face into a bowl. Let's help each other deal with this trauma."

"I'm the man who killed your family at the behest of Hydra. This is what I know about their organization and this is why it was done. oh, fuck it, I'm going to the beach."
There's nothing bullshit about people wanting to know what happened to their parents, their sons or daughters. Sorry you don't care about what orphans want. The dude's on vacation while still able to be turned into a murder-bot by anyone in town with a megaphone.

>>82677540
>In whay way do you think a guy like Ross takes more responsibility than the Avengers?

Ross is the *American* Secretary of State. If he's not being a team player they can Avenge from Canada while still working for the UN. Ross was an example of Americans butting in and taking over an international effort.

>>82677540
>And yet he claims the Avengers put people in harms way.

His daughter *almost* got killed. The Avengers dropped a city on Zemo's entire family. Ross *almost* has a body count. In the last movie one Avenger in one battle helped blow up dozens of people.

>>82677809
assuming the Avengers failed, they would have been right in nuking New York

It's not like the Avengers existed beforehand, the WSC didn't know about them much. Also the nuke is what allowed Iron Man to stop the invasion anyways.

>>82677879
And the difference to the UN is...?

>>82677638
You can imagine that every military and contractor is trying to make super soldiers. You saw it with Nuke in Jessica Jones, AIM in Iron Man 3, Darren Cross in Ant-Man, etc. And on top of that, groups like The Hand are essentially super-powered.

You can imagine that governments have gotten wind of people like Kilgrave, Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, Daredevil (whether or not they think DD is an enhanced). It's a fair implication on the movie's part that there are tons that we aren't privy to yet (and may never learn about).

>>82677775
>/co/ sucks the dicks of superheroes
What else is new?

>>82677853
That makes no sense. Because superheroes exist suddenly the concept of accountability and checks don't exist in a world?

We all do remember than Tony created Ultron right?

>>82673431
To be fair, Slokovia was kind of Tony's fault.

>>82677815
None of the Avengers have secret identities. In fact, unlike police you don't even need to do a ballistics test. If you see an arrow sticking out of them, it was Hawkeye. If you see....whatever marks repulsors leave, it was Iron Man.

>>82677501
>One is ffrom an android who would sign and agree to almost anything
He was the only one making any sense in the film and the only one with a valid argument .
> Another is from a current member of the military who is already taking orders from the government, and as such the Accords change nothing for him.
Also made a good point and given what happened to the opposing side was right in his decision
>One from a spy who sign because her signature is worth jack, i
To ultimately show the fruitless effort that it took to sign the damn thing and not turn it into a conflict.

> guy who outright said that he would just twist the Accords to suit himself afterwards with the power of lawyers, and was seen breaking the Accords right at the end of the film.
Doesn't change the fact that his intention was in the right place which ultimately proves that even if you don't believe in the process you can see its benefit to keep your ass out of trouble.

Meanwhile the people on Cap's side

>Falcon
Didn't read lol and even if he did would have followed Cap regardless
>Ant-Man
Knew shit about anything and just wanted to help Cap
>Hawkeye
Didn't read lol
>Wanda
Actually saw what Vision was talking about
>Cap
Didn't read lol and was never going to trust the government again after the HYDRA incident.

>>82677882
>assuming the Avengers failed
>they didn't
>countless lives saved
let's just say the safest hands are still their own

>>82677638
Shenanigans. Obviously Stark wasn't the first. The first we're aware of is Red Skull with an imperfect serum, then they made Captain America. Zola experimented on Bucky with another serum which lead to him surviving his fall and later Hydra recovered him and gave him a metal arm. He operated over the years. Ant-Man and Wasp were active for awhile before Pym retired.

I suppose we could even point to Thor and the Asgardians from the far past but they were worshipped more as gods and were aliens, not augmented humans. Not really sure how to class the Inhumans. Someone will claim they're non-canon especially since their movie seems to have been cancelled. Even Jessica Jones has her origin as one of several experimental children augmented by some shady organization, and of course there's Nuke. Again I'm sure people will be triggered by mere mention of them.

I don't know. Tony was Tony about it. Very brazen, turned it into a spectacle. He almost dared others to come out in to the open. I think it could be argued he created a super powered arms race. He certainly did with powered suits, though most countries were years behind him.

Loki and even Thanos (or rather The Other) and Ultron have talked about a kind of Newtonian reaction. Heroes inspire an equal and opposite reaction. It's all very The Dark Knight with Batman inspiring his own Rogue's Gallery.

>>82677600
>but just because we have powers to act and do what good we can where we can it doesn't magically make us into miracle workers.
Then what good are you?

>>82677904
TV and Netflix doesn't count jack shit for the movies. So we got Cross and AIM.

>>82677882
>Also the nuke is what allowed Iron Man to stop the invasion anyways.

Nah they were about to close the portal anyway. The nuke was one last FUCK YOU to the mothership.

>>82672680
About the registration, not entirely but I understand his perspective. They certainly didn't end up turning him into Hitler like in the comics.

About the thing at the end, he was pretty much just full of rage.

>>82677882
>Also the nuke is what allowed Iron Man to stop the invasion anyways.

Only after Stark redirected it to their hivemind mothership, If all went the way the government wanted it we'd still have the wormhole (since it had become self sustaining and was only able to close off when they jammed Loki's scepter into the generator) and the Chitauri would still be pouring in. The only thing the government would have accomplished is making the Chitauri scratch off one city on their list of shit to wreck.

>>82677809

They're from Boston?

>>82677930
I haven seen the movie yet but I read a little about the civil war comics and wasn't one of the agreement is the heroes have to register with the government and have their identity confirmed hence, the plot with spiderman revealing his identity?

>>82677881
>The Avengers cannot stop Ultron from dropping a city on Zemo's entire family.
Fixed.

Also they slowed down the impact so the entire planet wouldn't get fucked. You're welcome.

>>82678033
Yes, but Ultron exists because of Scarlet Witch, Tony and Banner.

>>82677922
>We all do remember than Tony created Ultron right?
Only in the MCU. In the comics it was Hank Pym. And the MCU barely has actual super heroes that actually do help the little people. Spidey is pretty much the only one (inb4 Netflix!)

>>82677740
Anything's better than telling some grieving widow the following.

"What happened to the man who killed my John?"

"Well, ma'am. WE sent him home with his brother. He said he was going to get grounded by his dad and have to stay in his room for almost a whole year. No pizza or tv for him either."

"You are a fucking asshole."

>>82678033
>>82677600
Stop posting Frank Miller

>>82678062
>In the comics it was Hank Pym
I mean... that doesn't really change much in terms of 'the safest hands are still our own'

>>82677941

>He was the only one making any sense in the film and the only one with a valid argument .

Vision's entire argument was correlation = causation bullshit. They were right to disregard him.

> Also made a good point and given what happened to the opposing side was right in his decision

His good point was hurr look at Ross's medals that makes him correct

>Didn't read lol

Literally all of them. We have no indication anyone read this textbook-sized document.

>>82677930
But two of the people they brought in have secret identities. Peter and Scott.

>>82678060
Funny thing is Scarlet Witch didn't mind control Tony, she merely brought his fears to the surface. Tony, when he becomes emotional, becomes even more unstable than usual.

Tony, sadly, has always been one bad incident away from a total breakdown and chaos. Civil War exposed that once again. She didn't even plant the idea of the staff, checking it out was Tony's idea. He could have gotten the idea to examine the staff, discovered a weird alien AI, and decided to rip it out and repurpose it into his Ultron global peacekeeper.

>>82677971
Ask the people living in your still existing civilization.

>>82675571
How intelligent is MCU Spidey compared to MCU Tony?

>>82678060
By the way do anybody knew it was Tony?

>>82678033
The Sokovia Accords needs an amendment where after every cataclysmic event they go through the list of casualties and have assassin squads kill all of the next of kin.

>>82678164
Hopefully smart enough to jailbreak his suit.

>>82678125
>Vision's entire argument was correlation = causation bullshit.
And he was right. Next,
>His good point was hurr look at Ross's medals that makes him correct
He never said shit about Ross throughout the entire film.
>Literally all of them
So everyone in the movie was just talking out their asses?

>>82678137
Peter was on the accords side though so you can't act like not having secret identities is some advantage to their side.

>>82678164
According to the writers Tony sees Peter as both a kindred spirit, bright, resourceful, wants to help, but the kid lacks the resources Tony enjoys. After the guilt of that kid they dropped a building on they think Tony has a notion to make up for that karmically by helping another young person find his full potential.

>>82678062
Pretty sure Iron Man started out by ending various armed conflicts across the globe. Sure, he doesn't do that anymore, but he used to.

>>82678144
>Scarlet Witch didn't mind control Tony, she merely brought his fears to the surface
True, but she did it knowing it would influence his decisions and possibly make him fuck up. The vision clearly had a deep impact on him.

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Can't there be a version of the accords where the Avengers are under government, but can still act semi-freely, like if there's a cat stuck in a tree, they don't need the UN's blessing to do it? Or, more seriously, if they catch wind that someone is trying to, idk, revive a M.U.T.O., they can tell that to the gov, but also act on it just in case it's legit?

>>82678216
>He never said shit about Ross throughout the entire film.
He was shilling Ross in front of Falcon with the medal argument.

>>82678216
>And he was right. Next,
>correlation = causation
>right
>ever

No fixing retardation I guess

>He never said shit about Ross throughout the entire film.

In their argument he brings up Ross's medal of honor to shut Falcon down.
>So everyone in the movie was just talking out their asses?

Ross gave them a summary and they debated based on that. You never see anyone look beyond the first couple of pages.

>>82678261
Yes this is made pretty clear in IM2.
>"I have successfully privatized world peace"
>Tony Stark

>>82678225
He was on the side because he wanted to help his idol AND Tony was threatening to reveal his secret to May. The whole speech he gave to Tony about it being wrong not to do something if he had the power to do so sure paints his views similar to Steve's though.

>>82678318
This. Is not bad they have to answer and be more careful but that shouldn't restrain them from fucking saving the world if the need arises.

By the way what resulted from comic Civil War? What's the state of super teams in front of marvel governments?

>>82678363
What transpired was enough to prove it so. Calling others retarded when you yourself can't even see the stupidity in your claim is the height of retardation.
>In their argument he brings up Ross's medal of honor to shut Falcon down.
He doesn't bring up his medal of honor dumbass.
>Ross gave them a summary and they debated based on that
He only gave the cliff notes version of what's already on the news not in the bood.

>>82673846
The big picture was whether they were going to stay a functional team to combat threats, even if their response time is down, and win back the public's trust, or whether they were going to let the issue fracture them and get into a fight with each other about it, letting their cohesiveness be broken when another-world ending threat happens.

>>82678403
>The whole speech he gave to Tony about it being wrong not to do something if he had the power to do so sure paints his views similar to Steve's though.
Only if you're retarded

>>82678318
Let people sue them with the criteria that the damage they did is greater than the damage they had prevented.

>>82678505
Actually i also got the sense it sounds similar to Steve's viewpoint. Probably Tony as well which could explain his protectiveness, he admires Steve's righteousness but despises his stubborness and one track mindness. Peter is his second chance to do things right.

>>82678464
>What transpired was enough to prove it so.

Show your work. So far all you've said is correlation = causation which isn't even worth a response

>He doesn't bring up his medal of honor dumbass.

He broughtbup some fucking medal, which particular medal it is doesn't make him more right

>He only gave the cliff notes version of what's already on the news not in the bood.

So they still didn't read it. Cap was being pressured to sign a document he didn't read.

>>82678505
Steve says almost the same thing in the movie though

>>82678612
>Show your work.
The movie. You lose again.
>He broughtbup some fucking medal, which particular medal it is doesn't make him more right
The argument he used wasn;t even about the fucking medal retard
>So they still didn't read it
Only if you're retarded.

>>82677313
>State worshiping faggots
hey, as one of those state worshiping jackasses, i resent being tied in with the idiots who think that mcu civilians, or their 616 counterparts, should ever be allowed one iota of control. for all the fucked up things real world governments have done, they've never deliberately ordered a nuclear strike on their own population center. or created a goddamn superscience monster. or allowed escaped nazis to begin carrying out a goddamn kill list with full government sanction. and as far as i know, no vice president has ever been complicit with the assassination of a us president

>>82678318
Se the thing is, that's too agreeable to all sides. If they did that, there would BE no Civil War.

But honestly, when backlash like this happens in the public sphere, it's not always sensible. It's driven from fear, and often too extreme. This part is mostly Tony's fault for establishing the Avengers as a private organization without bothering to get proper legal permissions from the UN, but Cap, as the leader of the team for years since the fall of SHIELD shares some of the blame that he never sought this out either All of them were perfectly happy being vigilantes that the world's governments could do nothing against without looking like assholes for arresting the guys who saved the world, but once the Avengers started endangering the World with Ultron, it all fell apart.

>>82678612
>So they still didn't read it

Can you blame him? That's a thing everyone does. I mean, the number of people that actually sit there and read each and every word on every End User License Agreement and Terms of Service agreement for every single videogame they play and program they download are so very few in comparison to everyone that just goes and hits "I Agree".

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>>82678690
>and as far as i know, no vice president has ever been complicit with the assassination of a us president

>>82678714
TOS don't really mean shit and can be thrown out in court and even if not the worst consequence is being banned from a game. This is more like when the Patriot Act got passed without everyone reading it.

>>82678714
In Cap's defense, he actually WAS reading it before Tony said "BTW DEAD CHILDREN" most likely because he was concerned about the repercussions of the specific elements of the law, whereas Tony had already made up his mind.

>>82678596
Part of me actually wants to see that blow up too in a way. Like Natasha said his big weakness is his ego and I can already imagine him trying to guide Peter in a way that he'd like to see Spidey go.

>>82678690
>they've never deliberately ordered a nuclear strike on their own population center

Yeah but nuking Japan was pretty much the same if not worse

>>82678596
>>82678646
Wrong on both accounts idiots

>>82678895
no u

>>82678895
Care to explain?

>>82678895
Pray tell how is Peter different then? In long sentences please.

>>82678690
US government does use a computer algorithm to select people to be killed tho

He was absolutely right. Even if you sided with Cap initially, once the truth about Tony's parents deaths comes out, there's no excuse. Bucky should have been killed and Cap should be in jail. End of story.

>>82679069
The only sad thing is that Tony's mother died. Fuck Howard, even Tony didn't give a fuck in that moment.

>>82679069
By that logic how come police don't disassemble murder weapons?

>>82678746
look, get me concrete evidence on lbj, andrew johnson, chester a arthur, teddy, bush sr, or any of the others were involved, and i'll believe you. but for now, the score stands at Real World 0, MCU 1

>>82672942
>The masses think its right, so its right

>>82679136
D-do they? I dunno, would a gun or a knife used to kill someone go back onto the market? Spooky

Hey guys, instead of trying to paint one side as completely right, why don't we hammer out our own version of what we think the legal framework of the Avengers should be?

1. I'll start with scrapping the idea that the Avengers mush clear every action with a UN panel in order to save the world, or that that panel has the right to deploy the Avengers directly.
2. Keep the panel itself, make it a more loose governing agent who has the right to order the dismissal of an Avenger if the world has come to see them as more of a danger than a benefit
3. Establish a position whose role it is to oversee any more extreme experiments with alien science to keep things like Ultron from happening. This person or people should be someone with knowledge beyond what normal humans possess in regards to cosmic matters, and should probably start out being just Thor.
4. There is a probationary training period for an avenger that screws up as Wanda did, so they can get a better handle on their powers. an Avenger who can't can't be on the team, for the public's safety

Anything people think goes too far or doesn't go far enough?

>>82679264
There's only so much that gets put away in evidence, and some even get thrown out once a case is closed. Some stuff like knives can wind up in a Police auction because it's the person holding the knive that dictates good or bad intent, and not the knife.

>>82679232
Ok brb with evidence

If I don't post again that means the conspiracy got me

>>82679069
Are you high? Bucky shouldn't be executed for being sci-fi mind-controlled. Steve saved Tony from killing an innocent man.

He should have told him about his parents though.

>>82679333
I think by bringing in real world politics into the super hero genre it pretty much missing the whole point of the genre of being fantastical by trying to make it more realistic.

>>82679456
The Avengers have an "Avengers charter" in the comics though. just to set the ground rules for the stories they tell, and to establish these people are not vigilantes. I don't think that hurts much of anything.

>>82679333
I'd just go back to Nick Fury but with a much smaller SHIELD

alternatively, have someone draft rules of engagement for the Avengers. The Avengers don't have to ask permission to do anything but if someone thinks they broke ROE there can be a formal investigation.

Have probation periods so guys like Stark and Wanda can only go into the field under the supervision of senior members. Qualification assessment to become a senior member.

Ross goes nowhere near this and is demoted to some menial desk job at the Pentagon

>>82679547
>Ross goes nowhere near this and is demoted to some menial desk job at the Pentagon
This, most importantly. The biggest key to make sure this is run well is no Ross.

>>82672942
>Implying Stark wouldn't do the same for "HIS RHODIE"

>>82679533
Except some members of the Avengers clearly are vigilantes in the comics.

>>82679547
>Stark
Why Stark, in the field specifically? He's combat savvy and a senior, his supervision should only come when new technology is discovered, or when he's in possession of weird tech.

>>82679613
>blasts Falcon in the chest for daring to dodge the attack that hit Rhodey instead

What a child

>>82679626
Outside their Avengers roles, I suppose. Which ones are you referring to?

>>82679634
He's kinda unstable himself.

>>82679634
Ultron

>>82679661
Spiderman? Well that is before SpOck quit. Hawkeyes is doing vigilante shit, so is Luke Cage.

>>82679456
I think it's absolutely ridiculous that people actually believe this. That you can't explore a concept such as "how would superheroes interact with our perception of reality and governance" because the genre inherently won't allow such a thing.

>>82679694
He said in the field, which I took as combat related, which I get with Wanda. But Tony is pretty dependable in a combat setting, just not behind the desk with a piece of Asgardian tech.

>>82679666
I suppose? But I think he's sane enough to go out and beat bad guys. I'd keep my eye on Natasha more, but that's mostly coming from me being salty that she denied BP his sweet, sweet revenge

>>82679634
I've got to agree with this. Wanda is dangerous in combat, and has shown her powers to be a bit volatile, but Tony fucks up outside his role as an ass-kicker usually. They need rules to establish what is done with any strange pieces of technology they find, and the team should be comfortable with whatever that is.

I'm hesitant to say it should be turned over to any government, because which government gets it then? the Avengers need to have a framework to handle that themselves.

>>82679732
That's fair. Their roles as Avengers though, I think follow some specific rules.

>>82678363
>>correlation = causation
>>right
>>ever

You're aware that science draws conclusions based on recognizing patterns all the time. Correlation =/= causation but correlation can help you find things that are related.

Fucking 4-chan. You guys are always learning just about enough about something to misuse it in an argument and then you act smug about too. lol

>>82679765


>I'm hesitant to say it should be turned over to any government, because which government gets it then? the Avengers need to have a framework to handle that themselves.

I was thinking, the Avengers would draft the ROE themselves (or hire lawyers to do it) but they would only be allowed into countries that ratify it. So they can set their own terms but can't force those terms on anyone.

>>82679795
When are they Avengers, really?
Most of the time they are Avengers so they can be in team up books more easily, which is usually in events. Otherwise they are doing their own shit anyway.

>>82679834
Vision doesn't do that though, he just says "look, here's a correlation" in science one guy pointing out a correlation doesn't prove anything. Even if you have a peer reviewed study with all variables controlled for, one study doesn't settle the matter.

>>82679834
>correlation =/= causation
Are you saying this like correlation never implies causation...? Because the whole "correlation doesn't always mean causation" line of reasoning is only there to debunk bad statistics.

Correlation, in many cases, definitely imply some form of causation.

>>82678033
>Also they slowed down the impact so the entire planet wouldn't get fucked. You're welcome.

They bravely stopped one of their own projects from killing off all life on the planet. Then expect thanks for doing so. They're the asshole who drunk drives through your house at 2:00am and expects a thanks for pulling you out of the wreckage of your everything.

>>82679944
Ignore this. I read your post wrong.

>>82679912
Can't wait for movie Vision to become a creepy fuck like his current comic version.

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>>82679944
Just making two graphs line up doesn't mean shit. That's all that it means. It doesn't mean that pointing out a correlation is a fallacy.

>>82680033
He won't survive the next movie.

>>82679963
>Then expect thanks for doing so.
They expect not to be burned at the stake for trying to save countless lives.

>>82680033
He's pretty creepy in the movie

"we talked abou this"

>tfw you will never talk about this

>>82680071
Just because Thanos is ripping out the gem?
Doubt it.

>>82680065
And Vision's argument is the equivalent of just lining up two graphs.

>>82676642
Letting Rumlow take the biological weapon away would be far more catastrophic. The Avengers made a mistake, yes. That doesn't mean they shouldn't have have tried.

SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED

>>82679854
>I was thinking, the Avengers would draft the ROE themselves (or hire lawyers to do it) but they would only be allowed into countries that ratify it. So they can set their own terms but can't force those terms on anyone.
I've been mulling that over in my head, too because it seems like the only thing that makes sense, but what I'm struggling with is the possibility that a country doesn't ratify it, and then something of world-shattering importance happens within that country, and the Avengers need to go there to stop the planet from being destroyed. For instance, if Latveria decided to not agree to the Avengers' involvement, and created a device that could instantly incinerate executive buildings and military hubs of the rest of the Europe's countries, someone would need to override his rule to stop him. Or if Kang has some timecontrol device he's going to use to conquer Earth, and he's set it up in say, Pakistan, who denied Avengers access so I'd put forth

1. A method for a country to request immediate assistance from the Avengers, within the rules of what the Avengers can do (no just "supress these political dissidents") even if the country doesn't allow the avengers general free roam.
2. An ability for the Avengers to override the wishes of the individual state if it is deemed necessary to the protection of the planet. They'd probably have to establish that it was so later to the world, but if the catastrophe is obvious enough, like they have been, this should be a non-issue.

>>82680090
>They expect not to be burned at the stake for trying to save countless lives.

Telling them that they have to check in with people before Avenging all over a foreign country isn't being burned at the stake. Putting someone in prison for blowing up an airport while trying to help an internationally wanted assassin escape the authorities isn't an unfair punishment by any metric.

First scene in the movie they find information that a group of mercenaries are going to do some illegal shit in a town. They tell exactly no one in the local government about this. They take on armed men inside a city with biological weapons in play. Innocent people are guaranteed to die in that scenario. They feel entitled to doing this kind of shit whenever and where-ever and don't trust anyone else to help carry out these plans or plan them out to minimize that. They're fucking reckless and have the body count to show for it.

They run in guns blazing when maybe just following them to the airport would have been the better play. They came within inches of dropping an unknown biological agent in the middle of a city before they blew a bunch of relief workers to hell and gone. They desperately need someone to slap them when they plan on doing this kind of shit.

Cap is and that's only because the MCU wants him to be

Just like it wants Tony to be the funny quip man who tries to do good and fails every single time

Can I ask why Wanda is on the team at all?

She helped Ultron become the threat that he is and because of this humanity was almost wiped out and the Avengers still let her on the team and no one complained?

>>82680401
Hawkeye made her an Avenger :^)

>>82680401
She walked out that door.

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>>82680140
>And Vision's argument is the equivalent of just lining up two graphs.

Saying something is a certain way doesn't mean it is a certain way. I have this graph that shows that every day about the same time it gets real dark outside my window. But correlation =/= causation so I should act all surprised when the same thing happens tomorrow. Lining up graphs and noticing a correlation isn't a bad thing. It's the basis for pretty much all knowledge.

Just cause you CAN draw the wrong conclusions doesn't meant that drawing conclusions is bad. There's being open minded and there's letting your brain fall out.